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I am getting more updates about my mother's behavior. The social worker she was working with has transferred her to another case manager, I highly suspect that it is because of BPD mother being uncooperative and manipulative. So now, having a "fresh" person to work with, with no history, BPD mother has told her the situation as she sees it.

She again has brought up the idea of "moving near grandchildren" ( i.e me) and told the new case manager she thinks there's an issue between us due to something her FOO said. She makes no connection or doesn't want to make the connection between how she treats her children and why it's difficult to be around her. She doesn't seem to make the connection, or care if it is, between her uncooperative behavior and the fact that her home care staff either quits due to how she treats them, or she fires them when they don't meet her needs.

She's angry at her primary care doctor for not being there immediately when she calls him. She uses the ER sometimes if she wants to be seen immediately and there's no way to know if her needs are urgent or not. She also demands that her case manager come over immediately if she wants to talk about something. Basically, if someone doesn't respond to her requests immediately, she's dissatisfied with them.

I have now updated her case manager on her history, so that she understands that this isn't new behavior on her part. It's uncomfortable to share the details of our relationship but I did, and let her know it's not due to something someone said, but a long history of verbal and emotional abuse that has led to emotional distress on my part when I have tried to help her, and that the way she treats her helpers is similar to how she behaves with me and that I will not have another conversation with her about her wish to move near me because we have gone over that and she knows why it's not a manageable situation. It is apparent that she is not cooperative with her care team where she is.

Although she has a mental illness, she isn't considered legally mentally incompetent. As long as she has the money to pay for home care, (and available people to work) she can continue to be in charge, and if people don't comply, she can dismiss them. The conflict is that, the job qualifications of these people are such that they don't comply. Medical providers are not immediately available all the time and make their own professional judgment. Her home care staff also refuse unreasonable requests. This is a similar conflict with me- she makes a demand, with the expectation that I comply immediately and don't ask any questions.

There's nothing I can do about this. I can't change it. I guess I'm just expressing frustration with it because she's also elderly and needs assistance- but anyone who tries to help her must do it on her terms or it's not acceptable to her and her terms are not reasonable. There's no cooperation, no possible way to discuss anything with her.

NW I’m so sorry.  I can hear your pain and frustration.  And I can relate.  You just described my mother.  They could be twins. 

I don’t have anything to offer that you don’t already know.  You have helped me so much. 

You once suggested an epsom salt bath at just the right moment.  I always find a few hours in nature helps to ground me. . 

How did the social worker respond to you when you disclosed your truths?  My mom’s social worker bought everything my mom said.  Deemed her not even qualifying for assisted living.  Mom cancelled her home care, and since I went back to work (to avoid her) obligates her friends to be her caretakers.  I was shown a text she sent to one of them. It’s horrifying but not surprising. 

Mom came to our house for Thanksgiving last weekend.  It took 3 people to get her up and down the stairs.  She has difficulty getting food to her mouth because of her Parkinson’s, and one practically has to yell because she can’t hear even with her hearing aids.  The things she says…

I have come to the miserable conclusion that all we can do is let them crash and burn on their on terms.  Without a diagnosis of mental illness they are still competent to make their own bad decisions. 

I’m basically waiting for her next fall or catastophe.  I’ve got a note in my purse to slip to the emerg doctor so they don’t release her from emerg into my care (as has been done in the past).  If they try, I won’t agree to it on the grounds that I can’t meet her medical, physical, and emotional needs.

So all we can do is the best we can to look after ourselves. It’s hard.

I’m especially sorry that your mom has brought up moving close  to you again.  But I am not surprised.  Her only concern is looking after herself and what she wants.  She clearly has designs for you to be her caretaker.  This is scary.  I have walked that walk, and it’s been traumatic.   How did the social worker respond when you said you were not having that conversation with her again?

Notwendy,
I feel so sad to hear all your mother is doing. I am glad Methuen responded as her situation with her mother is so similar to yours. If she weren't your mother, you would have written her off a long time ago. Is your mother capable of moving near you on her own, or would she absolutely have to have lots of outside help?

Thanks Methuen, I know you are in a similar situation.

It's hard for me to gage the reaction of my mother's case manager to what I told her. I think she understood my position. There's a lot of anxiety on my part when sharing this because when people have heard BPD mother's position, she's set the stage for them to believe her, not me. The case manager sounded sympathetic to her "wanting to talk" which tells me BPD mother has presented herself as the innocent victim here and convinced her case manager that it's because of something her FOO said. So the first impression she had was that it was a misunderstanding and not about BPD mother.

This position itself makes me feel as if I am in a no win situation because it's what she did with her FOO- convince them that I am the cause of the issues. But this time, I just said it all to the case manager without worrying what she thinks of me because there's nothing I can do about that.

I think she did believe me because what I reported lined up with what my mother's health care helpers reported. I do think she was a bit surprised to hear all that information though. She's been with BPD mother first and BPD mother has gotten her sympathy already. But she has enough information reported from others that aligns with what I told her. She did tell me that what I said was helpful.

So I spoke to GC sibling after that and was told that BPD mother said she's not happy with new case manager and is looking for someone else. I don't think case manager discussed our conversation but I think she too has professional boundaries and BPD mother doesn't like that.

You are right, there's nothing we can do but it's hard to see something like this and not be anxious about it being out of control. Yes, going to get those Epsom salts now and up the self care. It helps to know others here, like you,  understand. So many people don't. It's known that elderly people can be difficult but we could manage difficult. This is disordered and that's a different situation. Thanks for the support!

Zachira- she can't move without assistance. I don't think she could do it. She could possibly get others to help her but that isn't something I could control.

Would I have a relationship with her if we were not related? It's interesting as there was an elderly woman in our community who we would visit from time to time. We were not her caregivers- she did have help at home. She was very pleasant with visitors. I noticed her daughters didn't visit. I suspect people wondered if they were not caring people. I knew there might be more to that and that this woman could be delightful with visitors but maybe not the same way with her own daughters.  My BPD mother is a different personality with acquaintances. If we weren't related, she might also be that way with me. It is difficult to be someone who works for her or is a caregiver, but being an acquaintance is a different situation. I would not stay connected to someone who behaved like that if we were not related though but the nature of BPD is that she treats acquaintances differently.

It must be somewhat helpful that most of those people who work closely with your mother do see how badly she behaves. What is scary is if your mother actually finds a flying monkey to enlist in getting what she wants. It is disheartening to see those who are not close to your mother think she is wonderful and you are not a good daughter just because they buy your mother's false charming persona when she is with acquaintances.

She's always had flying monkeys. We've been afraid to say anything about her because, usually people didn't believe and thought we were horrible for saying them, or worse, crazy. She takes the position that I am being unreasonable and "keeping her from her grandchildren".

Yes they are adults and she can communicate with them, but I think she assumes the dynamics are similar to her and that I have triangulated them against her like she does with people "against" me. They they can see the situation themselves.

What has changed is the contact with helpers. She needs a lot of supervision and support- emotionally. My father provided that and did most household tasks, shopping, meal prep, driving and now she has help at home in the form of home health and elder care. With longer contact the workers have seen more of her behaviors. She's also been verbally and emotionally abusive with some of them. Most don't stay as helpers for long and they also report on her behavior. Before this, nobody outside the immediate family saw them and so people didn't believe it. Now other have seen it.

So she calls me up being all sweet and nice. That one is hard. From my experience, the being nice is a manipulations and I can tell from her voice that she's acting. When she's indifferent, it seems more authentic.

We have discussed here that the drama is a component of the relationship and that, without drama, the relationship seems distant. One way she has stirred up drama is through possessions- taking and even destroying things that we are attached to- making threats over them. One was the sentimental things belonging to my father that  she knew I wanted- and she'd call and say. I wondered why she brought up the "what do you want in the house" question again and kept on insisting I tell her even though I kept saying " I didn't call you to get your possessions, I called to see how you are doing" to which she responded " I need to know right now what you want!".

So, I eventually reply "yes" to the items she names, whether I want them or not. If she knows you want something, she won't give it to you.

Perhaps she's trying to get some kind of emotional reaction. At the time we discussed the "no don't come closer to me" it was difficult, and I did react, briefly, and she jumped at it. I quickly pulled back, seeing what has happened. Then came the threats.

I think it gives her some sense of power? It seems to frustrate her that I don't want her possessions. It's predictable- if she knows someone wants something, she keeps it. She knows what topics I have gotten emotional to before, and yet, still wants to discuss them.

Notwendy,
You talk with your mother on the phone from time to time. As always, she treats you in ways that make you uncomfortable. I am wondering what are the boundaries you have set with your mother when you have these phone calls with her? What kind of self care do you practice before, during, and after the calls?
Regarding your mother asking for what you want, you could name the things you want if there are any as things you absolutely don't want. I often say the opposite with my dysfunctional family members which works to keep me safer though does not feel comfortable for me. I like to tell the truth yet realize I am setting myself for being mistreated if I do with certain kinds of people.

I think you could be right that it's about power. Maybe it's because she has control over the possessions, but not you, and maybe she resents that. You have had strong boundaries with your mother and that probably irks her because she didn't experience boundary setting much with other people in her life, from what you've related to us.

Maybe she also has some kind of theory that you just continue to speak to her so you can get her possessions, and she's looking for confirmation that she's right. Maybe she sees it as a power struggle even though it's not what she thinks is happening.

Zachira-

It's always uncomfortable. She's manipulative and I have to keep a guard up. This isn't instinctive on my part. I know she has an agenda when she calls.

It's a balance between maintaining some contact with her- because I choose too, as I know I would not feel OK with myself if I went NC. That's a decision based on my own feelings.

I do have boundaries. Sometimes I don't accept the call, sometimes I don't call her. Sometimes it's a manner of getting off the phone if it feels overwhelming.

I also don't share information that is emotionally personal to me. I don't trust her. But I can ask her how she is doing, give her general updates about the kids " Grandchild is enjoying their job" sort of thing. I don't share anything personal about the kids. She wants emotional information. She uses it for her own emotional needs, so I don't share it.

There is no way to know if what she tells me is true or not, but I am more likely to answer the phone to be sure she is OK. It's not that I can't hold a boundary with her, but that it's not my nature to be stern. The only way to deal with her is to be firm. Then she responds by feeling hurt.

I have made it clear to her many times that I don't call or visit because I want her possessions. I think it's that I don't want them that bothers her. The only way to keep an emotional boundary from her is to not want anything from her. I learned this as a child. If you are attached to something and she has access - she can do something hurtful with it.

I’ve been reading a book that has some pretty interesting ideas on how to navigate a relationship with a dysfunctional parent. I thought of your situation when I read this bit from the chapter about initiating constructive conversations:

“Gee, Mom, I know you are not trying to confuse me, but you always seem to need me to come over and do things for you, and then you seem completely unhappy about it. I’m really concerned that something is really bothering you and making you unhappy, but I am not sure exactly what.”

Here’s a link for the book, titled Coping with Critical, Demanding and Dysfunctional Parents: https://a.co/6TYwwcA (https://a.co/6TYwwcA)

Oof. This really struck a cord.

You are probably right that it bothers her if you don't want her things. Maybe she keeps probing to see if she can get a foothold and this have something to wield power with.

Can I ask you, did you feel "stuck" on the phone with her at some point? How do you recognize that it's getting overwhelming and make a quick exit?

I struggle with this with my sister, who raised me and was basically my parent. She is high on narcissistic traits and the sight of her number on my phone triggers me :(

Hi Notwendy, I was grateful to read the care manager welcomed your story and found it helpful, that they didn't seem judgmental to you, and were willing to listen. I hope, despite your mother's efforts, that they will remain in charge of their case, if only to make your position easier.

I highlighted this part of your answer to Zachira because I wondered what would happened if you went along with it... If instead of saying you don't want her possessions, you implied that you really want one specific thing of hers (a thing that you don't really want). My therapist made me do that once, and it really was eye opening.. One of the few things that kinda helped.

It made my inner child giggles a little bit to be the mind player, it wasn't mean, but like an experiment if you will...and it did shift something inside me.

Like seeing the game, I knew existed, for the first time, with no emotional reactivity, because I was the instigator. If that makes sense.

To be fair, it might go against your values, and I'd understand that, but might be an interesting thing to try... She might break it and give it away, at which point you will be able to ask why with no emotional investment? An experiment...

Otherwise, it does seem about control. Part of me believes your boundaries with her makes her feel worthless, connect to her shame and abandonment, so she tries to appeal to you through material things, to get back control, but also some sense of worth. If her things are worth something to you, then so does she...like you alluded once, maybe part of her would like to see you care for her things as much as you cared for your father's things... But her illness makes it impossible to see that the strain on the relationship was her making...

 :hug:

Hi NW,

I'm just latching on to this now.  And there's all kind of great stuff here already.

So instead of adding to the insights, I'll add something else. Sometimes, when we're weary, and we need to vent, it helps to hear something that we know and are maybe in danger of forgetting, even if for a moment.

NW, I love the manner in which you take things head on and remain undaunted in affirming the truth about matters without making them personal. It's a jewel of a gift, which in my mind, makes you a jewel of a person.

This one sounds like it's getting heavy. And I just wanted to lighten your load, even if only for a brief moment.   A jewel of a person. Yep - that's you. Thank you for being here with us. We're here with you.

Hang in there.

Rev

I can relate.  When my mom started mistreating her home care workers and one of them reported her, they were so surprised at her behavior they thought she MuST have a UTI.  I knew she didn’t have a UTI.  What she finally had was an emotional rage at someone other than me.  They only believe what they see and what they always saw was a sweet old lady.  But to me she’s had multiple personalities, and the raging personality  kind  of nullified the pleasant personality.  Like you, I’m  on guard  100% of the time, but other people don’t see that.  Their truth is that she’s a sweet vulnerable old lady because shes old and decrepit.  Every acquaintance I meet who inquires about her in conversation asks me if she still  lives alone.  I answer politely that she is independent and that is her choice .  I feel their judgement every time.  I get what it feels like to not be understood, even by people including professional caretakers who don’t know her PD.

As to the pattern of the "what do you want in the house" question, I’m wondering if you would like to  try another approach.  What about the technique of replying with another question?  

I’m kind of confused mom, because I’ve answered that question before. I’m wondering why you keep asking me the same question?

Or, to take it one step further:

“You’ve asked me that question a number  of times.  Is there anything troubling you that makes you want to keep asking me that question?”

Thoughts?

Thanks everyone for the kind words and advice- I will try the "I am confused" approach.

I have done the "yes" response to being asked if I want something but she still asks. So I tried the "I didn't call because I wanted your possessions" response to which she kept insisting "you need to tell me".

Rev- thanks for the kind words. It means a lot to know that. What makes this tedious? She wants to elicit an emotional response- and if she gets it, she becomes verbally abusive- she quickly transforms -it's eerie to see it, the change in her tone of voice. It's not just with me. So encounters with her seem to be this cat and mouse set up and when she is successful, I have seen her "gotcha" grin.

Yes, I get this.  It’s beyond frustrating.  It’s not possible to understand why a mother needs to do this to her child.  It’s a sick game, and it feels terrible.  

I think the trick is to take the off ramp the moment you see she is starting the game.  “Oh I have to go now!”  This was so hard for me in the beginning, but I had to do it for myself.  I just had to get out of there.  

Honestly my mom hasn’t done this as much lately but it might also have something to do with her cognitive functioning as well as my stepping out of the game.  It’s not unlike stepping off of the triangle.  

Is it possible for you to have NC with her for two weeks just to give yourself time for recovery and self care?  My T once recommended NC for two weeks because my amygdala needed time to settle down.  It was  good advice.

Is your mom still going on about the move?  Like on a daily basis, or almost every time you talk to her?

I am actually doing that- avoiding speaking to her. I don't want to get into anything with her.

She's not doing it directly. Her asking me about if I want her things is a lead in to she needs to move. She doesn't do anything directly or overtly but she's rallying the troops- bringing it up with other people.

During the discussion with the social worker a while back, I lost my reserve for a minute. She latched on to that and went right at it- insisting over and over "I insist you tell me why this won't work" I was rattled, scared, and my voice was cracking... "I think it would be hard to handle" I was very emotional. I immediately regretted this as I saw we were off to the races and quickly shut down but it was too late. She kept pushing me "I need to know EXACTLY what that is!" Then she got mean.

Apparently she brings this up to people from time to time. "What is it that NW thinks is hard to handle" and acts as if she doesn't have a clue and "needs to know what that is".

Well the answer to that is that it's difficult to have a cooperative relationship with her.

But I won't engage in that conversation. If I ever said that to her, the reaction would be the biggest blow up. I also wonder if this is what she wants, a big blow up but I don't want to participate in that.

What do you think would help to say to deal with your mother's actual/potential flying monkeys? The gaslighting from the flying monkeys can be more painful than from your mother. You expect your mother to invalidate you. You don't expect others to take your mother's side without hearing your side yet they do. I have learned that flying monkeys get recruited often repeatedly hearing short messages with a tone of voice that sounds very confident, somewhat similar to how advertising is done in many ways. Can you have a message that is brief, something your are very comfortable to say to someone like the social worker as often as you need to say it?

I noticed my mother needs a proper blow up to "reconnect". To her, the closest there is to connection is the tender phase of the abuse cycle. So when she feels disconnected, she looks for drama and trouble to force a "reconnection".

Zachira- miraculously the flying monkeys have not been an issue. I think they are more aware of her now.

Riv3rW0lf- I think it might be that she wants a blow up, maybe someone to blame. I don't want to give it to her but I feel anxious when she seems to be working on it.

Ah ah yes. Exhale. I heard "little NotWendy" in that response. :(

This is exactly what they do. I have been caught by this kind of thing too.



In my experience, this "wanting a big blow up" is exactly what is going on.  The pressure is building up inside of her.  "We" know exactly when this is happening in our mom's.  We can sense and feel it.  Words aren't even needed.  If they were a train, their engine is on the track and racing towards something they need.  They do things to get there faster because they want something.  What they are racing to is drama.  It feeds the highly active emotional part of their brain.  The cognitive part of their brain is not active, so they cannot think about putting the brakes on or slowing the train down, or thinking about what the consequences will be when the train gets to its destination.  They just want to get there faster.  What they are racing to is our emotional reaction.  They get some twisted or deranged satisfaction from eliciting a reaction from us.  

This is because it gives them power and control over our feelings.  When little NW said "I think it would be hard to handle", she saw you were vulnerable and scared.  This made her feel powerful and in control.  And she needs that, because something inside of her is very out of control.

I have been caught by this kind of thing in the past too.  But not so much in the last 3 years since I found this forum and extraordinary and special people like you to help me learn what is really going on, and how to navigate it.

One thing I have learned on my journey is how much easier it is to support other people with their situations, than to help myself when I am in the eye of mother's hurricane.  It's so much harder when it's us.  

You're mom can say whatever she wants to people about you.  Mine does too.  Mine even said things about me in front of "my people".  But, if people chose to listen and believe that stuff, that's on them.  Then I find out who genuinely knows me and has empathy, and who doesn't or is simply blind.  It hurts, as I know many of mom's people personally.  But I've come to the conclusion that one of our life tasks in navigating our mothers is to develop a thicker skin.  And I also sometimes wonder if some of those people know something is up, but don't really know what it is.  And they certainly haven't done the "work" we have done to know how to navigate a difficult person, so I can't always fault them for "not getting it".

Let her obsess over "what is hard to handle".  She needs to put her negative energy somewhere.  If it's not that, she will find or create something else.  That is her problem - it doesn't have to be yours.

When I find myself in these kinds of difficult situations, I am working on "noting" my feelings, and then watching them float away down the stream (or river).  Sometimes it works.  Sometimes it doesn't and I have to try something else.

Are you sleeping OK?  Appetite ok?  I am hoping you are finding some time to do some things for yourself that bring you peace and moments of joy.  Sometimes it's the little moments that can make a big difference - the song of a bird, the cuddle of a pet, coffee with a friend, or whatever helps you to feel grounded again.

Wishing you a better day today. :hug:  

I think you hit the nail on the head and in a way, it's a relief to know that it's the blow up she's after, because none of it makes sense otherwise and the fact that we can sense it- and the anxiety it causes because these episodes were terrifying when we were kids.

And yes it was little NW. My voice voice went up in range and it was shaky. I was scared and and she knew it too.

I so appreciate the advice and  support of this board.

You've got this NW.  I know you do.  This too shall pass.  And I know you know this too. :hug:
It just sucks so much to be in the eye of the storm.  We're all here for you. :heart:

As you know, your mother uses you to dump the feelings on you she can't stand about herself. Can you tell us all about the ways you are not like your mother at all? I admire how you have become a person in your own right, very much a separate person from your mother, a separate emotional system, which surely infuriates your mother that she has been unable to groom you to be the daughter she wants to wait on her hands and foot, no questions asked. I think people who really know you and really know your mother, if that were possible (though not likely as you are so different) would be shocked to find out you are her daughter.

Thanks so much. I have been feeling this sense of anxiety - even without her confronting me.  I think we do sense it- in the tone of their voice even. I can tell she's seeking this from her face, or her voice. I think we learned to tune into these things when we were young.

So much better to be emotionally prepared if she does push for an emotional exchange. Thanks again  :hug:

Would you say you are experiencing a flash back, or is it another kind of anxiety?

Zachira-  many ways. She's dainty and always dressed up. Me? tomboy as a kid, did sports, jeans and joggers. She likes to have people do things for her. I want to be able to do them myself. I think some of this was from being parentified as a kid though and not being able to rely on her. I don't know if this infuriates her that I am different from her. I think it's more that she sees me as someone to meet her needs and gets angry when I don't.

Possibly. I don't have a lot of childhood memories of some times. Occasionally I have had memories come back. GC's memory is better than mine of episodes with her.

I do think it could be little NW. We are still afraid of her a bit.

What seems to be the real issue here is that your mother does not take no for an answer. When my sister would not take no for an answer about my refusal to go to family therapy with her. After several weeks of back and forth emails, out of desperation I finally, quite literally, copied and pasted some of the non-defensive statements from Susan Forward's book, Emotional Blackmail into an email.

I wrote: I am sorry if my decision is upsetting for you, but I have decided that this is non-negotiable for me. That being said, since I still value our relationship I am more than willing to hear whatever it is that is upsetting you as soon as you are ready to talk about it. I can assure you that you can tell me whatever it is that you are angry about and I will gladly hear you out without retaliating.

The good news is that it worked, and she finally dropped the subject and said she would respect my decision, but she also retaliated by basically ceasing all contact with me, although in the end that really has been for the best. Like you, I have been loathe to go NC with my family, in my case out of guilt, so I was very happy that my sister was the one to make that decision.

I understand that Susan Forward's approach seems quite "harsh", but sometimes that is what it takes. Perhaps in your case when you mom brings up the subject, you could say something like, "Now don't start that again". You could even put on a Liverpool accent.   :( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GI6aAyScrMM

Being authentic is something that infuriates people with BPD and/or NPD who rely so much on projecting and selling their image/false self in the moment.

On the anxiety front, I'm hoping at least two weeks on NC starts to settle the amygdala.  Honestly, the thing that has made the greatest different in my level of anxiety, has been returning to work out of retirement, ironically.  That has set a clear boundary.  I am basically unavailable for mom's shenanigans.  I'm not NC, but I'm pretty low contact and I only live 6 min from her.  My H took over her grocery shopping, and still mows her lawns and does her small home repairs.  But he knows how to handle her, and doesn't get drawn into anything.  He has boundaries, and won't do for her what she could do herself.  As a result, she gets her friends to do it all instead.

So my point here is that even though you've been LC, your anxiety might be suggesting LLC or NC while you focus on your own wellness and sense of emotional safety.  She is not safe for you, especially not right now.

I've been thinking about this need for a "blow up" we were talking about a bit earlier in the thread.  In my experience, once the blow up happens, they immediately feel better.  They of course carry on with life and feel better, and we are left to pick up our shattered pieces.  Eventually after days, weeks or longer, they get back to their normal, and go on with their life as if nothing ever happened.  The very confusing part for us, is that after a blow up, they feel better.  Really?  What healthy person feels better after a blow up?  How does that work?  I mean, I just don't get it.  But I have observed this pattern in my mom over her (and my) entire life.  So maybe the anxiety is because you afraid the blowup is coming?

She saw you vulnerable when you said "I think it would be hard to handle".  In that moment, little NW emerged, and your mom pounced on that vulnerable moment like a cat on a mouse.  That could set some anxiety festering.

The thing is, you have awareness you lost your "reserve".  I very much doubt you will let that happen again.  If we can't leave the room or situation (you were in a meeting with the social worker), you can always reply with "I have no response".  Period. That gives the social worker time to redirect.  If there is no one else present, you just exit the situation in a friendly way.  This is what I have learned to do.  I just say something like "I have to go now, but I can come back when everyone is feeling better".  If I'm not feeling better, I don't go  back until I'm feeling better.  That gives her lots of time to self-soothe.  Just because you were vulnerable in that moment, doesn't mean it will repeat itself.  You have time to prepare.  To think.  To make a plan.  You have tools, and you know how to use them.  It really sucks that she keeps putting you in these positions that you have to use these tools, but that's the nature of the disease.  It knocks us down for a while after a strike, but somehow we keep getting up and recovering (until the next time).  I like to think that each time it happens we get a little smarter.  They on the other hand, keep getting older with more older person problems.  From what you have written, your mom surely has a file on her in the home care office that is quite thick.  

The last time my mom had a full on RAGE, I recorded it on my phone.  It helped me because I knew I was recording my own response to her.  When I played it back to my H when he got home from work, his jaw dropped and stayed there from what he heard my mom saying.  In that state, I think she crossed the line from rational to irrational and "mad" in the psycho definition of the term.  But he was equally impressed with how I handled her.  So was my T.  But I don't know if I could have done it without the recording, if that makes sense.  It was a tool which helped me keep myself in check.  In a sense, it helped protect little Methuen.  The only other use I have for that recording, is to know that it is objective evidence that her behavior is not inside my head.  They like to gaslight us.  I would not use it for any other reason. 

Couscous I loved that video  lol so much I watched a longer piece of it.  Oh my.   lol

Couscous- ha ha that video

Yes, she doesn't take no for an answer. "No" to her is a challenge. Maybe that's at play when she asks if I want something. If I say no, she keeps asking "do you want this?" and finally I need to know now what you want. Say "no" to her and she will keep asking until you just say yes to get her to stop. I have learned to not give in, but it's tough.

Methuen, you are right about the LLC/NC. I usually take some NC time to recoup and I will now. Also the blow ups and even the mini ones. I compare it to a kid who ate too much candy and gets a stomach ache. The kid throws up, then feels better and runs off to play as if nothing happened. We are left with the mess. It's like she threw up on us. For her, it's as if nothing happened and she expects us to pretend it didn't happen either.

Even the mini projections. There's an icky feeling. We all know what that is when that happens.

I think BPD mother is trying to have a crisis situation, or mentally she's becoming in a crisis. And she's trying to manipulate. She's had several visits to the ER- all turning out OK but with symptoms like dizziness, nausea, some due to her not being compliant with her medicine. She's needing more home support care. Her nurse manager says she's asking about me.

After another ER visit, I called her to check on her. She was her usual self and I said I'd speak to her the next day. About an hour later she calls- in tears. All apologetic ( for what, she won't say- but is probing "tell me what I have done to hurt you" and I don't know what she's alluding to exactly, but neither does she-- what she does is set up the situation where you tell her something and we know where that goes.

She's done this twice now and as soon as she gets tearful - she snaps out of it quickly.

GC is going to visit her soon. When I remind her of this, she doesn't seem to be content- and keeps on asking me. There's an agenda.

Then there's the reality. She's elderly, on her own and has no business being in charge of herself, even if she's legally competent. Why is she focusing on me and not GC? For one, the grandchildren live closer to me- but not as close as she imagines. They have their own lives. I also live closer to her than to GC.

The imaginary plan I once had before I understood BPD, as my father's health got worse, to be closer to me, but in another nearby city where there were more resources and cultural events they'd be interested in- a manageable distance but where we could each have our own privacy as well. There were more choices of retirement communities with health care on hand as needed. I knew that BPD mother would not be able to be a caretaker for my father and this way, he would have care and she'd have her basic needs met as well. They both rejected this suggestion and the ensuing drama made this impossible but this is the idea that BPD mother is bringing up now.

Now, though, things are different. This situation would have suited Dad who liked to be very active. The idea of BPD mother alone in a strange place where she doesn't know anyone would be a nightmare. She also now needs more than a retirement community- she needs assisted living but she's not cooperative with care givers.

From time to time, BPD mother would fixate on the "one thing" that is a solution to her unhappiness. It would either be a vacation she wanted, or something she had to buy, or moving, or some external idea and Dad would make it happen for her. She has no idea of the planning or cost of her ideas. When she wants something, she's persistent. I know exactly what she's doing.

And yes, she's elderly, alone, mentally ill, and it's unmanageable. Someone needs to take charge and she won't let them. The other part of my "imaginary- if only plan" was that before she needed this, her children would have access to her finances and know her needs, medical and mental health and cooperate with us so we could actually help find resources that match them. And she'd have to trust us, which she doesn't and we don't trust her. Sure, she will tearfully promise until she gets what she wants. I know this situation, and yet, I am not heartless and the reality is she's elderly alone and with the capacity of a child to follow through on any kind of plan for herself except for her manipulative skills, which are far better than mine are.

I will not get into the "who hurt who" discussion. I know where that goes. Her idea of us helping her is ordering us around and demanding what she wants but that isn't realistic. She needs to give us financial POA If she's running low on funds, we need to know this. If she is running low on funds, she may need to apply for Medicaid. We need a realistic picture of what she has and what is affordable for her. She needs to give us medical POA so we know what he needs are. It's not that we want to control her, but we need an open and workable situation to even consider her wishes. If she doesn't want to do this, or won't do this, that's her decision. I don't expect her to change.

Waif is the hardest. I can't tell if these ER visits are because of her emotional/medical needs or if she's somehow making a crisis, or both. She is what she is, but we know she's limited in her ability to manage on her own. The impasse is whether she will allow anyone to manage for her for her own good.


 

OMG this is a copy of  my mother.  Asking about you - could it be because she knows she can manipulate your feelings? Dizziness and nausea.  My mother actually wore gravol patches for years, but now they stopped making them, so she takes andansetron if she needs to.  These symptoms mirror her stress levels and dysregulations in my opinion.  She always impressed her suffering on  me, but refuses to see her doc for help or seek specialists to get to the root of the problem.  Her mental illness and it’s impact on me is why I came out of retirement and went back to work.  You are right- waif is terrible.  I can’t help her as she  is complex and has undiagnosed psych issues which are  not recognized.  The medical system simply sees her as a elderly patient with chronic health issues. My mom is also noncompliant with some meds.

I don’t know what to say or how to help. This is also my life.

We are stuck.

They need care.  

I had to accept that my mom has the right to do things her way, which is a path to  more suffering and self-destruction.  All I can do is manage my own wellness with that in mind.

About your mom’s persistence to “explain what you mean”.  I think the elderly can “fixate” on a problem when they are in a negative space and  have too much time on their hands.  It’s exhausting and wearing  for us on the receiving end. Knowing you will never have this conversation with her is such a necessary boundary. But she will continue to be relentless at trying to break you down.

My sentiments exactly.

I’m going out on a limb here and just posing a hunch which could be dead wrong.  You are very compassionate, and she knows full well her power over you, so is it possible she sees you as the more vulnerable daughter to be manipulated to have her needs met?  

As for your well meaning and caring imaginary plans - I can relate.  But with BPD in the mix, I’ve accepted it’s magical thinking on our part.

I have financial POA, but mom never granted healthcare POA.  Unless you get both, I wouldn’t go down the roads you are feeling obligations for, as it gets worse than it already is for you now, in my experience.  

My life is not my own.  I shouldn’t have to work to escape from my mother.  My life choices don’t feel like my own.  

Nobody in my world could possibly understand that.  But most people on this forum get it.

You aren’t alone.  

This sounds  like a firm boundary.  Otherwise non-negotiable.

Also, would your GC sister  be willing to be the one to have the conversation with your mother  that it might be time for her to assign financial and health care POA - maybe together with the social worker?

NotWendy,
As I read your last post, again I am amazed at the similarities between our mothers. Mine is in Assisted Living now, and I still marvel at how that came to be, since she still has capacity, but at some point, signed the papers and went through with it. It was a long and grueling process to get her to willingly sign off on that, being that she has capacity. During 1 conversation with her Dr.prior to going into AL, I told him I was concerned for her safety  because even though she had capacity, she also has emotional dysregulation and does not make safe and rational decisions.  He explained that this was a complicated case, and may need to wait for "discovery" to do anything about it. He meant that she might have to end up in the ER multiple times for the medical profession to determine she was unsafe living on her own. She did end up in ER after a fall, had multiple fractures, needed surgery but refused. It took 5 medical professionals several days to determine she did have capacity, but they called her irrational. She had been screaming and carrying on, at first they thought was had dementia or a UTI with confusion. But no, she was just being herself. In the end, they let my sister sign off for the surgery, because without it, she would have lost the use of her arm. By this time she was more compliant and went along with the Dr's, but it was such an ordeal. Her Dr and a Social Worker I spoke with prior to her admission to AL told me that as difficult as it would be, to allow for "discovery", because otherwise they would be treating me as well as it would have caused me to become overwhelmed and was harmful to my health. Things have improved to some degree since she has been in AL. The SW there said most people adjust once there, but can take up to 6 months. Well, guess what? My Mother has been there for 3 years and she has not and will not ever adjust. What has improved is my quality of life. She is well taken care of, but not happy. Thing is, she has never been happy, but at least she is safe.

Notwendy,
My BPD mother groomed one of my brothers from birth to be her caretaker. When he was dying of cancer, she abused him so badly social services had to get involved, because she was upset he would not be around to take care of her. Then my other brother, a family scapegoat like me, decided he would take care of mom, and he did for years despite all the abuse. I tried to get him out of this role, and my NPD sister made it clear she would not get involved.
 
I have lots of respect for many members on PSI including: Methuen, Madeline7, Notwendy, who have managed to have their own lives, own families, and not turn into full time live in caretakers for their BPD mother like my brother did for many years.



..

Thanks for all your replies. It helps to know that others are in a similar situation, although I am sorry you are dealing with this too.

Methuen, why me and not GC? While she can also be verbally and emotionally abusive with GC, GC has also been the one she sees as the child- the less of the caretaker/rescuer one. Their relationship has been more parent-child while I am the one who was parentified. When my father was ill, I perceived an unspoken expectation that I would be in a caretaker role, one I was willing to assist with - in my ideas but the reality was disordered dynamics and verbal/emotional abuse and her refusal to cooperate with me. Since she doesn't make the connection of how her behavior interferes with people's attempts to help them, she doesn't seem to know why their efforts are not effective.

Her expectations have not changed. With my father, she has been able to proclaim a tearful "I am sorry I love you". I can see how hard that had so be for him and these later night calls with her crying " I am sorry for whatever I did please tell me" are so difficult to hear. I don't want her to feel like that. I don't want her to apologize and I don't trust the sincerity of her calls.


Before any discussion of moving to assisted living anywhere- if she wants my involvement in any capacity, I need to see solid evidence of her needs and her resources because this information is needed in order to make that decision. The AL has to be affordable and it has to meet her health care needs. In a normal situation, the parent asking for the adult child's assistance is transparent about that and just gives that to them willingly. There is mutual trust between them. The parent knows the child will have their best interest in mind and that the child will consider their wishes and choices. The child knows the parent is being honest about their finances and medical needs.

This mutual trust and respect is not present in my relationship with BPD mother. She'd trust her hairdresser's neighbor's third cousin's husband before she'd trust her own kids. And we can't trust what she tells us. The only way I can know these things for sure is with financial POA and medical POA. For financial- I need a printout of every account and every loan. I don't need all her medical records but I need some kind of summary of her needs, her medicines, and the level of support she needs. I assume this is what an AL will ask for but what she would want from me is some kind of promise for a place she would want without me knowing if she can afford it or it can meet her needs and any mismatch would not work for her.

Methuen, she may be more agreeable to work with GC and if that topic comes up during the visit and she's willing to give GC access, then I am fine with that. GC  will share it with me. We shall see how that goes.

Notwendy,

I just wanted to say I am sorry for the devolving of the situation with your mother. The teary phone calls must be awfully traumatic for you on an emotional level.

You keep asking why you and not golden child... Why does she keep calling you to ask how she hurt you... And you may never know the answer to that.

Thinking about my own mother, and basing myself on her behavior... BPD mothers are not always dysregulated. Some times, they end up face to face with what they did, and for a short time, they see it, until the shame becomes too much to bear and they have to release it on someone else again.

My mother once admitted out of her own volition that she screamed at me so badly that I stopped talking to her for four hours... She presented it as me being a child with a strong caracter, but also seemed deeply uncomfortable and ended up saying, out of the tips of her lips, that she was sorry. She wasn't dysregulated. She could see how she hurt us at that precise moment. It happens, very rarely, when she is in a particularly good mood, and regulated...which is part of why having a BPD mother can be so hard and traumatizing. It's the constant switching.

From my point of view : it is possible that your mother know what she did to you, as she is approaching death. She might be looking to make amends, but her illness won't let her. Thinking about you and what she did is a trigger for her dysregulation.

It is outside your control. It is outside her control.

I personally need to believe that under the veil of the illness : our mothers loved us and deeply sorry for what they did, but they cannot stand the shame, and so cannot admit it fully to themselves.

You felt like the scapegoat, and you felt that your sister was the golden child. But as part of the disease...the most parentified and abused child might be the actual favorite, I think... The closer they feel to us, the more enraged and abusive they are.

I certainly was... Both the favorite AND the main scapegoat. The one expected to be the closest to her, to take care of her, of my brothers, of everyone, because I was strong and rational. She loved me so much that she couldn't bear seeing me love anyone else, and resented me, rejected for it.

Just a hunch... And might not be true. But a story to maybe appease little notwendy in there.

You cannot have the discussion with her, and will never be able to.. but if she could say it...chances are she is sorry, but is so very ashamed of herself that she cannot face it.

However, it is not your role to carry her shame for her either...  And this is absolutely not to make you feel guilty. She is. She did what she did, and it is completely on her. Just trying to rationalize her current behaviors.

I personally prefer to look at my mother like a hurt, scared child, not to excuse her behaviors, but because it feels less triggering and scary than the rageful manipulative adult she sometimes acts like... Easier to manage maybe.

Riv3rWOlf made me think of something, that the scapegoat child might really be the favorite child for the BPD mother because it is usually the scapegoat child that is capable of empathy whereas the golden child may be a narcissist, like my sister.

Further to what RW wrote, I wonder if disordered parents do not trust their kids to take care of them in their old age because deep down inside they are aware that they have mistreated them, and so fear that their children will want to seek revenge on them by abandoning them in an old-folks home, or stealing their money. This would be consistent with their mistrust/abuse schema.

CG isn't a narcissist but has been the more needy child in ways. I think she sees me as the more capable one. Interesting idea that a scapegoat child might be the favorite, I haven't seen it in that way.

I agree, she does act like a child, but a child with legal adult rights who needs to be in control.

Interesting thought that she might not trust the children she mistreated. Possibly. I think maybe it's that- if she would do it, she'd assume I would too. For instance, if she knows she lied to me, then she assumes I would like to her. If she knows she has treated people poorly, then she can assume others will do that too. Since pwBPD project on the people closest to them, then it makes sense she'd trust a stranger before she'd trust us. On the other hand, I don't know if she makes the connection between how she treats people and how they may react to her.

I am still so intrigued with Riv3rWOlf's suggestion that the scapegoated child could be the favorite child in some ways over the Golden Child. Think about all the strengths that the scapegoat has and how the scapegoat is continually chosen to be the caretaker of the dysfunctional parent. It has been healing for me to read about the positive traits we scapegoats have that made us be chosen to be the scapegoat. My Golden Child narcissistic sister refused to take care of her husband when he broke his back, enlisted family, friends, and people from her church to take care of her husband. At one point, she took a two week vacation insisting she was the one suffering and needed a break. When our brother was dying and could pass away any day, our sister was upset that he was not paying attention to her and had become a drug addict from all the morphine he was taking to alleviate unbearable pain. Notwendy, do you think your golden child sibling would be able to provide the kindness, caring, and generosity that you provide your mother with, because this is the kind of person you are, and as you have stated many times, you would not feel comfortable not being involved at all in helping your mother? Notwendy, do you think your mother is aware of how people like and love you in ways that she will never be?

GC is empathetic. I think she sees me as the more capable caretaker. I know she doesn't like me better.

Thank you for the kind words. She'd have no idea what anyone else thinks of me. We have completely different social circles. Truly, if someone is in her circle, I consider them to be a potential flying monkey and don't interact with them much- it's better that she has her own circle.

Notwendy,
As you have said, you and your mother have completely different social circles, and the ones in her circle are potential flying monkeys, and you believe your mother has no idea what people think of you. You have differentiated yourself as a separate person from  your mother, become a person in your own right, something to be extremely proud of. It makes me think of how a SIL of my father, tried to tell a mother of one of my cousins what a great daughter she had, and she literally had no idea, despite her daughter being one of the most popular people in her little town. The mother on the other hand, had no friends and operated on a completely different wave length from her daughter.

 Riv3rw0lf, I agree, but would tend towards switching out the word "favorite" for "safest".  Perhaps they choose one person to be the scapegoat, because they have a reason to feel safer scapegoating that person.  

NW, could this fit with why your mom scapegoated you instead of your sister?  Perhaps your mom sees something in you that makes her feel you are a safer place to project her toxic emotions on? ...like the better caregiver...or?

I once had a T suggest to me that it was a bit of a messed up compliment that my mom felt safe enough to vomit her toxic emotions on me.  

Yep.  This.  Or because they have mistreated us, they assume the whole world operates like they do, and therefore we WILL mistreat them in return when they are vulnerable.

I’m sure that’s part of it. Another part is that one of the assumptions they have is:

10. I am an evil person and I need to be punished for it. (Hat tip to Turkish.)

Another aspect is that people like this will deliberately behave badly in order to provoke you into Persecuting them, and they will stop at nothing until they finally get a reaction, at which point they have won the game of “Gotcha!”, because now they can be a Victim, which is where they feel most comfortable on the drama triangle.

In my case, because most of my family are quite willing to hit below the belt, and they know where my vulnerabilities lie, my only option is to keep my distance.

What a perfectly articulated summary. 

I think it makes sense that she'd assume  that I'd treat her like she treats me but I don't think I could do that. I surely don't want to. I also think there's a need on her part to have a persecutor and she does provoke people or put them in that position.

I thought the issue of "moving near me" was settled but I see a possible pattern here. She did agree with the social worker to look at assisted living places near her but then didn't follow through with that.  When she decides on something she wants, nothing else will do. You can't even substitute one brand of soup for another if the store is out of the brand she wants. She HAS to have that exact soup or else and will push to get what she wants. Boundaries, saying no, means nothing. Her ability to get people to give in to her requests exceeds what most people can manage.

If she wants something and hears a "no" she takes other strategies - one being not revealing what it is that she wants and then enlisting others to carry out her wishes in an indirect way. I think part of my feeling of unease is that, when she calls me all teary, I feel as if she's got some other agenda.

It also feels abusive to call up crying that she's unhappy and still hide her financial information from us because we have no way to know if she's OK financially or is having concerns.