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Hi all. My 16 year old daughter needs help delivering a solid NC message to her uBPD mother.

My daughter is mentally very healthy, a straight-A student, —a wonderful young woman.  I left my BPD ex wife in 2017 and was on this board a lot then-thank you to BPD family..  I recovered from that marriage from hell and have been better than I ever could imagine.

We have had 50-50 custody.  My ex is high functioning publicly but is an even worse mess since I left.  She has a nice guy fiancé who has threatened to leave recently but has stuck it out-he does not know she is mentally ill; she is a publicly high functioning professional.  My son who is 18 left for college two months ago.

My daughter was targeted during the divorce as a ten year old by mom as her emotional support toy.  I immediately got my daughter help at that time.  She was 10.  The therapist recognized the situation clearly and gave my daughter the tools to deal with mom.  I’m proud to say that my daughter did GREAT at setting boundaries etc; however she went through a hell of her own holding back a lot from me and here we are today.  With my son leaving for school (son and daughter are best friends), my ex has predictably gone off the deep end with uBPD and now alcoholism.  My daughter has been more frequently witnessing rages and been painted black from her mom in my absence but the real problem is this emotional push-pull targeting going on for years with extreme gaslighting that has been complicated by other family members who don’t think mom is mentally ill-D16 gets the blame for “irritating mom.”  D16 has fantasized about leaving mom openly for two years but only started discussing how bad it was with me in the last three months.  I had warned her that with S18 going away, it could get bad.

My D16 had extreme troubles and horrible anxiety last month, and I got her into counseling.  The old and new counselors are wonderful but they are not BPD “specialists.”  They have thoroughly validated my D16’s emotional state and decision making.  She is now absolutely resolute in going NC with her mother, for life, and due to recent events her brother has fully supported her which is huge (he is mom’s golden boy).

The message to mom is going to be sent by daughter this weekend that she is moving in with me permanently and wants zero contact with mom.  The counselor has been fairly helpful but I wanted to ask this community for advice on writing the message because of the experience here.

As for my side of it I will handle all the legal issues for my daughter for custody if there is a fight or if her mom cuts her off financially.

Bless you for this - for giving your D a chance to not be subjected to her mother's rages and abusive behavior.

One thing to consider in a message is that - her mother will take victim perspective. She will blame your daughter and also you. If she replies, the reply is likely to be blaming, critical, and hurtful.

I would avoid a "I want NC because of what you did" . In my own opinion, that doesn't register. My BPD mother makes no connection between her behavior and the feelings of other people.

Don't also soft pedal this to try to spare her mother's feelings. That won't work either.

For your D's part, the less said the best. For my BPD mother, something I may have said or did at any age is as if I said it today. She's saved everything that was in writing. Your D is 16. She thinks and speaks like a young teen. She doesn't need to be judged for that when she's 30, or older.

Something like "I am staying with Dad and it's best for me to not communicate with you" - then act on this. You can not say "please don't contact me" as you can not control what her mother does. It's more likely her mother will reply.

You can control what you and your D do. If you send an email, this needs to be from your email address- so the mother doesn't have direct access. You screen any replies and do not give them to your D. They could be manipulative and hurtful. Your D is 16 and should not be subjected to that.

If your D has a cell phone, change the number. Blocking calls doesn't work- BPD mother could use a different phone. If your D is on social media, make sure her posts are set on privacy and for her to not accept friend requests from anyone who she is not sure who they are. BPD mother may show up or enlist friends to check on your D.

Your D will have mixed feelings, she will have grief and uncertainty. This is hard. A mother is a significant relationship. Some of the grief is over the mother we wish we had. Some of it is self doubt- could we have done better? Reassure your D know that none of this is her fault.

Your D may feel overly responsible but she's a teen, and should not have such adult responsibilities. You are protecting her so she can be a teen. She needs unconditional love and you can give her that.

Thank you so very much for ALL of this info.  I’ve been thinking very intently about the other aspects and needed help on those ideas too.

My D16 is committed fully to—as the counselor put it — “Getting how she sees all of this completely clear and healthy as a gift to her future adult self.”  This means that she does it for HER own well being and honors that while she wanted a normal mom, she just didn’t get one.  So there will be a lot of visits to therapy to come, but she is clearheaded and certain.  The one way I can help her is that I went through a divorce with her mom after years of trying to find the courage.  Her mom is a black hole of a personality and I have told my daughter how proud I am of her for taking her life into her own hands at such a young age.

You are doing what many of us here wish our fathers had done- regardless of whether they stayed married to the BPD mother or not- stand up for us and protect us. However, to be able to do that, you first had to be able to stand up for yourself.

At 16, I'd have made the same choice as your D, but there wasn't much known about BPD at the time. I would not have had my father's support. He was enmeshed with my mother.

I can't know the road not taken in my situation. Having a parent with BPD is a different path no matter what, but what's important is your D has your support and validation for her decision.

I’m sorry Wendy.  As you know regrets don’t help us when it comes to BPD and I’m proud of you for recognizing your situation at any age!  I agree though…I knew NOTHING about BPD until during my divorce six years ago…and my ex remains undiagnosed but for her short interactions with my D16’s therapist in 2016 where the truth clearly came out.

I live in a small town and have lost friends over the divorce.  I have had to live with most people here thinking I was the bad guy.  My daughter worries about this too and she has my full understanding and support in that area.  My family, and my new spouse, also fully support her and understand.

I think these are difficult relationships and regret/second guessing oneself is a part of it. Your D is not responsible for her mother's feelings. It's her mother who is responsible for her own behavior. The mother has the choice to see the results of her behavior and make changes if possible, if not for a relationship with her D but in general, if she's even capable of having that insight. My BPD mother is not.

I think we are the bad guy no matter what. The decision to have boundaries comes with that, but it seems that trying to do more also fails. In the article I posted written by a woman with an elderly BPD mother- she states "doing too much is not enough". If friends and family believe your ex is a victim of you being the bad guy, there's no way to correct that without sounding like you are badmouthing your ex and so are the bad guy. I have grieved the loss of relationships but on my part, I found the best thing has been to distance from people in my mother's circle. They can figure it out on their own.

I didn't go NC but began to have boundaries with my BPD mother. For the pwBPD who needs for others to believe they are fine- who have that need to do this because their own sense of self depends on it- a child distancing themselves indicates something isn't OK. It can not be them. Please let your D know- her mother can not fathom or consider this. She will project her feelings. Your D will be the bad guy and be blamed for it.

It sounds like your D has a good sense of who she is at 16. One thing I had to learn is that just because someone says something about me, it doesn't make it true. It was a counselor who suggested I substitute something absurd for the accusation. If someone says you are a pink elephant, and you are certain you are not one, there is no way that this has any emotional power. We have to learn to look at ourselves through our own values, our own morals. We aren't perfect but we try to do the right thing. If your D hears otherwise, remind her that these are pink elephants. She isn't one and no matter what someone says, it won't make her one.

My hat is off to you being there for your children with a BPD mom. My BPD mother is deceased. I live with horrific memories and ongoing problems with a highly dysfunctional large extended family. My biggest mistake in dealing with numerous dysfunctional family members is wanting to be seen and heard, thinking my point of view matters, and saying what I feel and think giving them ammunition to make matters much worse for me. I am glad your daughter is in counseling, and has the support of you and her brother. It is with the people that understand and will support your daughter that she will be safe in sharing her feelings about her mother. I would advise that someone else tell your daughter's mother (other than your daughter) about her moving out and wanting no contact which could help in your daughter having somewhat less distresssing events with her mother playing the victim which she surely will do including her mother enlisting flying monkeys to get information and finding ways to interact with your daughter. Hopefully your daughter can move out without her mother home and no advance notice, and a firm short message can be left by somebody who your daugher's mother is less likely to be so volatile with (maybe you, social services?) that for now there is to be no contact with your daughter. From then on, it will be about enforcing the boundaries of no contact which will likely be extremely distressing at first, as your daughter's mother goes on the war path. Is there any chance your daughter could take some long weekends and vacations out of town so she can be completely safe from any contact from her mother and begin healing from having a BPD mother in her life?

My daughter can go for weekends at two safe and fun family places.  So that will work.

I think I have been careful to make sure that I am not inserting bias to my D16 and her situation.  This has been entirely her.  I think this could get dragged before a judge so the less it “seems” I pushed it to other observers, the better.  This far my D16 has been texting her mom that she needs another week with me to work out her issues with mom.  Mom has been sweet talking her but then calling her brother and calling my daughter a witch and a horrible daughter.  I don’t want her to experience this anymore so I don’t care and I’m willing to send the message myself.  What do you all think?

I think sending the message yourself would show support for your daughter and not put her in the position of having to receive a reply from her mother or expecting an apology from her mother.

What I'm wondering is if your daughter, as a minor, is legally allowed to choose which parent she wishes to live with according to the laws of your state, and if there is paperwork that needs to be submitted to the court in order for her to do this?  

She can vote in the short term with her feet, but yes, I am consulting an attorney and believe we will need to petition the court for that.  I do fear the judge may force her to see or talk to her mother occasionally but I have two therapists in our corner.  I would rather see if she would mediate this in a separate agreement signed by a judge than go before the judge.

She will not want this dirty laundry and her behavior public.  If she tries to, I will be unapologetic with my response.  I’ve never been anything but kind but not with this.  We have an enormous amount of behavioral documentation built up in therapy and journaling.

I think it will help you to read up on the Karpman triangle. PwBPD prefer victim position. If your D sends the message, she will be the persecutor. By you doing it, you will take that position for her. I think it does show her support if you do this and also because as an adult, you are in a better position to deal with your wife's reaction. My guess is that your wife will target her anger at both of you, but at least you haven't put her in that position.

I have also been the one to shield my kids from my BPD mother. I then become the "horrible person who is keeping her from her grandchildren" but I am protecting them from her.

Given the chance at age 16, I'd have done what your D did. My mother would threaten divorce and when we were little, we were scared. By the time we were teens, we wondered why they didn't do it, they were not getting along. I would have asked to live with my father if they did. But they didn't divorce and since I wanted a relationship with my father, this had to include her. I tried my best to make it work, it's been a challenge, probably only tolerable because I am an adult and not living near her.

I did wish better for my father (now deceased) but it was his choice. You and your D have made different ones and I commend you for supporting her in her wishes. Not all teens have this kind of maturity, but in this way, I think we've seen enough by our teens to decide what we need to feel safe.

You might be better off posting this on the conflicted board. I personally think it’s ill advised to take any action without legal advice to avoid creating avoidable drama, such as finding yourself in contempt of court.

That's a good idea- I don't know if there are legal consequences- best to check.

There's another possible way to go NC slowly. A statement like that would result in a huge response from my BPD mother. Also, for me to have gone NC with my mother, I'd have to be NC from everyone in her circle- family, friends, other wise there'd be some connection, some running into her at family gatherings.

The other is LC. Reduce contact, This is also involves reducing sharing personal information, not getting in emotional discussions. With your D, it would be the message " I want to live with Dad for a while (basically till she goes to college but she doesn't have to say that) " and while there'd be some contact with her mother, it could be brief and not alone in a private place. My BPD mother treats people the worse when she's alone with them.  So "visitation" might be going out to a family lunch with BPD mother and her brother, bringing her a Christmas present when people are there. This is something to discuss with her counselor of course.

Then, at 18, she can have her own space by going away to college. She legally can choose to be NC or LC if she is not able to do that now.

One thing I have found is that BPD mother doesn't show all her cards at the table. Boundaries don't mean anything to her. Also, she's saved every letter, every email so it's better to not put declarations in writing. One thing to keep in mind is that boundaries are for us. We can't control anyone else's behavior, just our own behavior. Your D saying to your ex that she wants no contact with her is not a guarantee that your ex will respect that. She may show up at your door, or her school. You have to be able to enforce this.

So unless your D can get a restraining order on her mother, it may not be possible to keep her mother from showing up at her school, or at her friends' houses. One other option is to reduce contact until she is 18 and away at school and she can enforce this.

My daughter was adamant all weekend that she do this and she sent the text to her mother today—very simple and straightforward and requiring no communication. I will be engaging the attorney tomorrow in order to set up a notification to the court. I think that’s the best way to do this Legally. My daughter could have changed her mind at any moment but just didn’t. So now it begins and I’m sure there will be a little bit of strife but I’m used to that. My old marriage seems so long ago and for the past couple of years she has no effect on me anymore. I really empathize with those who are thinking about divorcing or breaking up with someone who has this disorder but for me it was for the best and my life is so much richer for it. I’m able to give my gifts to those around me in the world without guilt or shame and I experience joy again all of the time. I want this for my daughter and I’m glad that she is doing this and proud of her as it is her decision entirely.

Thank you all for your advice and bless you.

OK then, so fingers crossed that this will not end badly and that her mother will not attempt to assert her parental rights and use the court to override your daughter’s wishes.

I hope not. Teens can emancipate themselves if necessary.

Good for her to follow what she believes is necessary.

I don't know what would have happened if my parents had divorced. I would not have blamed him if my father chose to do that. I did see how difficult the situation was. Now that you have done it you can take a stand for your kids- and you.

Yes.  I did prepare my daughter for that possibility.  It’s there but impossible to tell.  She has already been painted very black by her mother so I see her rejecting my daughter instead of attempting to pull her in.  The other issue involves her mother’s high functioning ways…there is a large volume of bad behavior which if mother takes this to a judge, she is smart enough to be publicly humiliated over it.  Being right and yet looking best is too important to her mother.  She will very publicly not look well.

Sounds like your D is in the clear that way.  Looks like your D is a bright, strong, and self determined young lady and that will serve her well.

The issue that this raises for me is that sending a text like that without first having consulted an attorney has the potential to lead to negative, unintended consequences, for instance, allegations of alienation, or at the very least, major drama triangle dynamics.

But keep us posted on how it all shakes out!

An update, for future people to see how this has gone so far.

My D16 started telling mom that she was going to stay with me for longer and longer periods of time.  When I knew where this was headed (and it was headed there fast) I got my d16 in counseling to prepare.  D16 moved in with me full time and advised her mom two weeks ago that she needed to not be in contact with her.

The result was that mom was silent for a day and then began sending love emoji texts and trying to entreat her to “not run away from problems because that never solves anything.”  The problem being D16, not BPD mom.  Nearly every day.  There is a lot of guilting going on without direct blaming yet, although behind the scenes I am of the experience that it is pretty ugly.

D16 is day to day.  She comments frequently how de-stressing not having to go back is, but laments the texts which I have told her not to read from the start.  She refused to let me buy her a new phone prior to NC.  She is angry about the past and feeling like she may never get to a place where her mom isn’t right outside her door about to threaten her emotionally.  I tell her I completely understand but that two weeks is no substitute for the several years it may take to allow her mind to break these old patterns.  She gets it but like most kids it’s about instant gratification :).  Therapy continues.

UdBPDmom has been silent to me.  I do not see her getting legal involved.  No threats.  She has withheld eye contacts that she had ordered but delivered them when I pressed her on it because D16 couldn’t see.  I plan on giving her more time to get used to this situation before proposing that we modify our financial agreements slightly out of court.  I’m not interested in more money (we make the same amount and split all costs) but I need her to give on tax dependents next year and commit to paying for D16’s car in February (I bought son a car and pay insurance, she was on the hook to buy D16’s).  We will see.

I forgot to mention that my attorney recommended not doing anything with the court at this time based on these circumstances but to attempt to come to agreeable terms.  In some states this would be different but here the courts allow for some grace if it is an older teen and parents are working it out.

I know in some places under certain circumstances, a 16 year old teen can become completely emancipated from their parents, have no contact with them whatsoever. It sounds like from what the lawyer has said, that your daughter can assert her rights to choose to live with you and not have contact with her mother, and there is likely little her mother can do about it, unless you get an unreasonable judge. In my area, teenagers at age 14 can choose to no longer visit the other parent, and there is apparently nothing the parent can do to enforce the visitation. It is great your daughter is in counseling and you understand what a difficult painful time this is for your daughter. It sounds like you have a sensible lawyer who is looking out for your daughter's well being by trying not to escalate the type of volatile overwhelming scenarios that people with BPD seem to seek.

Little update.  My ex has kept quiet behind the scenes but she did call my D16’s therapist to feel her out.  During the call she blamed me entirely for alienating my daughter from her.  It seems like this is going to be her public tact but she shows no sign of acting on it legally because she knows what it will mean for her reputation.  I’m happy she blames me publicly because my D16 has become very upset about what people think.

Ex has enlisted her brother and mother (uncle and grandmother) to send mean emails to my daughter expressing their extreme disappointment with “her selfish behavior” and “running away from the problems.”  Ex’s fiancé and future stepsister were recruited earlier to Flying Monkey over messages that “mom is just sensitive, we all need to help her instead of running away.”  Makes you want to vomit.

Therapist is not surprised.  D16 is feeling more comfortable and safe and happy each week except for the Flying Monkey guilt.

The flying monkeys are often worse than the person/people the flying monkeys are enabling. You are doing an exceptional job of supporting your daughter and getting her the help she needs. I have been dealing with a large immediate and extended family of flying monkeys and their enablers my whole life. From my experiences, I have learned that with certain people I do need to speak up and defend myself with very brief information in a confident tone about my side of the story. Sometimes, it can be as simple as saying: "That's not true." and saying no more. Unfortunately the flying monkeys begin the smear campaign early on and keep it up, and hearing a few words of reason from you about what is really going on in some cases could help your daughter. The most important thing is to show that you are the stable and caring parent which you are doing, which can make the flying monkeys' narratives less believable with less of an impact on your daughter's wellbeing.

I’m thinking that your daughter might get a lot out of attending Alateen meetings. Based on the sheer number of enablers coming out of the woodwork, I’d suspect that there is probably at least one alcoholic in her mother’s family tree, (and maybe even in yours). PwBPD are basically “dry drunks”, so her mother would be your daughter’s “qualifier” to attend meetings.

Edit: I just reread your original post and see that your ex is dealing with alcoholism, so Alateen would be really helpful for your daughter.

Same playbook for me with BPD triangulating family members to "her side"  only for me, I was an adult at the time, not a teen.

I didn't do Ala Teen, but I have done ACA, ( or ACOA). I had assumed this was only for issues with alcohol in the family but found that family dynamics with BPD are very similar. In our group, we have called it adult children of alcoholics and dysfunction. Ask your D's counselor about Ala Teen- see what she says. I found ACA to be helpful.

Thank you everyone got the group recommendations.  I had a very good discussion with my daughter about the family dynamics that are emerging.  It’s extremely helpful that I can validate what she is experiencing because the same happened to me during divorce.  I told my daughter that this is the hardest part…that there will unfortunately possibly be some collateral family members lost to her.  But that after some time, her mother will lose much of her power over her (FOG) even using others.  My daughter told me she already feels much safer and is starting to experience periods where she forgets how bad it was.  I experienced that too.  But my daughter did relate to me that she experienced a moment where she relived in her mind something bad her mom raged on and it put her in intense fear like it was actually happening again.  That to me sounds like PTSD.  I’m really upset by this but the counselor continues to be very helpful.  I just didn’t realize it was going this badly over there for her.

Your daughter is so lucky to have you. You know what to do to help your daughter and if you don't, you reach out and find what will help her. There are so many tragic stories of children who had a BPD mother who was enabled by flying monkeys, and whose lives were ruined by suffering from untreated and unrecognized PTSD. The most important factor for a child that has been abused by one parent to recover from abuse is for the other parent to recognize the abuse and support the abused child, like you are doing.

I just didn’t realize it was going this badly over there for her.

Nobody did but now you do realize it, and that makes all the difference. pBPD can hold it together well. Many people didn't have a clue what went on in our family. I have had some relatives tell me, now as an adult, that they are sorry they didn't know what was going on- they thought my mother was strange- but they had no idea of the extent of the dysfunction and verbal/emotional abuse that we, as kids, experienced. And in our situation, Dad remained in denial and was her enabler. It was the family secret.

It's hard to see abuse when it comes with being cared for physically- we had food, clothing, school. Abuse can happen at any socioeconomic level. I assumed abuse was being beaten or physically sexually abused, which didn't happen, but emotional and verbal abuse did happen.

I first learned about PTSD in reference to reading about people in the military who were experiencing war flash backs. This is extreme and possibly debilitating and a very sad situation for these veterans who served their country.

Since I hadn't been in that situation, it didn't occur to me to consider there are possibly other ways to experience PTSD in less severe reactions. But one day a parking lot attendant yelled at me for parking in the wrong space and told me to move my car. I zoned out, panicked in fear. I did  move the car, but still was shaken up for a while. I think most people would think the person yelling was the problem, they had a bad day, or they were mean, or rude. In my situation, I immediately thought "oh no what did I do" and was fearful and shaking. But this isn't the kind that is debilitating. It doesn't happen often and I can recognize it. Not to minimize what your D experienced- it's not anything one would want to see happen, but you have recognized it, and she can work on this and understand how to manage it.

Your D may struggle with some of the things she has experienced, but she is resilient and by standing by her, you are making a difference for her at an early age. She may have had some experiences one wouldn't want for a child, but she has strengths too- you are supporting them.

Thanks both of you for your thoughts and listening.  I find myself in a very tough spot personally (work responsibilities with large problems currently to handle there for my company, my son struggling a little in college, a long-distance spouse for now who has a special needs son and needs my backup).

This continues to be helpful to have experienced people give advice and let me know we are on track.

Holidays are proving a little tough for D16 but I keep telling her it’s understandable and that time will make a huge difference.  For now concentrate on today and friends and school and sports.  It’s advice I can take as well.  Tough times don’t last forever.

It sounds like you are dealing with a lot — perhaps even too much for a single person to have to handle. The main problem is that you will not be of much use to anyone if you have a nervous breakdown.

It’s possible that you (like many here on BPDfamily.com, myself included) may have a Self-sacrifice Schema and if you think that this is the case, then this could be something worth addressing in therapy and/or Al-Anon, which could also prove quite helpful for this issue.

Here is something about this schema that may resonate:

Self-Sacrifice Schema involves, “Excessive focus on voluntarily meeting the needs of others in daily situations, at the expense of one's own gratification. The most common reasons are: to prevent causing pain to others; to avoid guilt from feeling selfish; or to maintain the connection with others perceived as needy. Often results from an acute sensitivity to the pain of others. Sometimes leads to a sense that one's own needs are not being adequately met and to resentment of those who are taken care of. " — Jeffrey Young

It sounds like you are really dealing with a lot — perhaps it’s even too much for a single person to have to handle. The thing is, you will not be of much use to anyone if you end up having a nervous breakdown.

It’s possible that you (like many here on BPDfamily.com, myself included) may have a Self-sacrifice Schema and if you think that this is the case, then this could be something worth addressing in therapy and/or Al-Anon, which could also prove quite helpful for this issue.

Here is something about this schema that may resonate:

Self-Sacrifice Schema involves, “Excessive focus on voluntarily meeting the needs of others in daily situations, at the expense of one's own gratification. The most common reasons are: to prevent causing pain to others; to avoid guilt from feeling selfish; or to maintain the connection with others perceived as needy. Often results from an acute sensitivity to the pain of others. Sometimes leads to a sense that one's own needs are not being adequately met and to resentment of those who are taken care of. " — Jeffrey Young

It's great that you are concerned about your children. Are you taking care of yourself? One result of my upbringing is that I didn't want to role model my mother, and assumed my father was the "normal" one who was a victim of her behavior. It was later when I had to work on my own co-dependent traits that I saw his, and how that fit into the dynamics in the relationship with my mother. I didn't know this could be a problem until I had to deal with it. I had to learn that it is OK to take care of myself too.

One gift you can give your kids is to take care of yourself and role model this. Of course one shouldn't go too far and be selfish to their detriment but I don't think that's much of an issue when there are BPD dynamics- leaning too far in not taking care of oneself seems to be the tendency with that

I hear what you are all saying.  I believe I had an issue with this schema through my early life.  I went through counseling from 2012-13 before getting the courage to divorce and I learned that I tend towards this.  During the last ten years I have focused on doing what is best for myself.  That’s how I find myself in a really great marriage with a very solid and healthy partner who gives me the support and love I now know I deserve.

While my nature is not 100 changed, I look out for me now.  I’m very happy.

Today was my ex’s birthday.  My D16 Received the following text from grandmother:
“Today is your mother’s birthday.  Reach out to wish her a happy birthday.  Your bible says to honor your mother and father.  Not disrespect them.  You are better than this!”

She is doing ok but that is wrong.

This makes me incredibly sad and angry for your daughter, who seems to be parentified by everyone surrounding her mother... She has to be the grown up, the mother, to honor her parent... But what about

“Train up a child in the way he should go; even when he is old he will not depart from it.”

“Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger by the way you treat them. Rather, bring them up with the discipline and instruction that comes from the Lord.”

Two things my mother with BPD didn't bother achieving for us. We had to bend to her will, she molded our personalities with rages until there was nothing left of us and we had to rebuild ourselves as adults, completely traumatised.

The grandmother would do well to refresh her bible studies. There are more psalms and directives than to honor one's parents.

I am so very grateful your daughter has you. Sending you much thoughts and support.

Honoring our parents is a process, and to achieve forgiveness and the honoring part, we first need to validate ourselves. Honoring a parent is not about doing everything they demand, and tolerating abuse...this is not honoring someone. honoring someone is putting healthy boundaries in place so that they can learn natural consequences and become their best selfs.

Good luck to you both  :hug:

Thank you.  I just need to vent.  This grandmother is an atheist.  My d16 is pretty devout.  She isn’t however judgemental or mean.  She is caring and friendly but with smarts and boundaries to protect her. I just talked to her and she is still taking this as well as possible.  It’s good that she has a counselor meeting Thursday because she could use additional validation.  I don’t want them creating hurtful uncertainty, guilt and obligation.

Scriptures such as this are directed at relatively normal people and relatively normal relationships.  To claim otherwise, that there are no exceptions to generic counsel, is wrong.

Rather than perceptive and supportive, grandmother sounds enabling.

There is also this advice:
"Better is a dish of vegetables where there is love than a fattened bull where there is hatred." - Proverbs 15:17
"Better is a piece of dry bread where there is peace than a house full of feasting along with quarreling." - Proverbs 17:1
"Better to dwell on a corner of the roof than in the same house with a quarrelsome wife." - Proverbs 21:9; 25:24

Seems even in Bible times there were some nasty people it was wise to keep at a distance.

That text your D16 received from grandmother is despicable.  Instead of holding her daughter accountable (D16’s mother) she is enabling.  Can kind of see where it comes from.  But you are helping D16 to break the pattern.  So glad she has you, and so glad that you also know/have learned how to take care of yourself.  As others have already said, you are role modeling healthy patterns, which is exactly what is needed to counter that guilt and obligation ridden caretaking text from grandmother, who is cherrypicking the convenient parts of the bible while ignoring the parts that are inconvenient to her narrative.

That text was inappropriate. If this is her mother's mother, I can see how religion was also used to make her mother comply.

I have spent time in ACA groups and one of the topics is religious abuse. A child forms their concept of God based on their experiences with their parents. If the home is abused, religion can also be a means of abuse. It's not that the religion itself is wrong- it's how it is used in the family.

For the members of the group, one task is to form their own religious concepts. Some remain in the same religion and look at scripture from the adults (recovered adult) perspective, some reject it, and some change religions to differentiate from the memories they have of the one they are raised with.

At 16, your D is developing abstract thought and forming her own concept of God but she is far from completing this development. She can not see scripture from an adult perspective. She will do this in time. In the meantime, the task is to distinguish the grandmother's (mis)use of it from the actual scripture itself.

If someone has loving parents, it's easy to honor them,  but not all of us do. So how does one honor a difficult parent? It's a struggle. I can share my own ideas. Not that I know exactly what to do or even if it's the right thing to do but I have to make peace with myself (and God) as much as I can.

First of all- God made everyone in God's image and our task is to be who we are, not what someone else expects us to be. We also have the right to protect ourselves from harm- physical or emotional.

If a parent is dangerous emotionally to a child- it is necessary to protect  that child. Your D is a child. Her grandmother is making the mother's feelings a priority over the child's emotional safety but it's the child who needs protection.

Honoring a parent is not the same as loving or obeying them. If they request something that is harmful to others, we do not have to comply. If I enable my mother to be emotionally abusive to me, then I am enabling her to do wrong things. I don't have to allow that.

How do I honor her?
By not gossiping about her.
By not being mean or disrespectful to her in person.
By disengaging if I am upset or angry with her rather than say something mean back.

Your D can come up with her own way of "honoring her mother" which doesn't include putting herself in emotional harm. Same for with her grandmother. Your D can work with a clergy member that you trust to work this out in accordance with her religious beliefs.

Thanks NotWendy.

While I am sure it’s only natural for parents to get upset when they hear about their children getting harassed, it is also necessary to maintain some degree of emotional detachment from our kids. Ultimately, it’s going to be up to your D to figure out how to navigate her relationship with her mother, and she may even eventually be able to have an arm’s length relationship with her as she develops stronger boundaries. Since your ex is high functioning then she has the ability to be on “good behavior” when she has enough motivation to do so, and if your D has a zero tolerance policy with respect to abusive behavior, her mother may decide to play ball. Only time will tell.

As far as the text is concerned, this kind of thing is standard MO in dysfunctional families and your D can expect to see a lot more of it. All the “peacemakers” are jumping at the opportunity “rescue” your ex because it boosts their self-esteem to do so. If you haven’t heard of the Karpman drama triangle, it might be worth reading up on it, and explaining the concept to your D.

 

I saw an article that exposed this very issue.  The remarried mom was outraged that this year 16 year old teenager planned to visit his dad during the upcoming holidays.  (Even though last year son had spent the holidays with her and stepdad.)  She emotionally responded that he had "ruined" the holidays this year for her.  She described... son "just sat there and looked down".  Browbeaten pattern?

Fortunately the response was overwhelming not to guilt the teen.

https://www.foxnews.com/lifestyle/family-outrage-divorced-mom-devastated-teen-son-spend-christmas-dad

I just remembered - I'm more forgetful these days - birthdays weren't celebrated in Bible times.  Well, actually there were instances but both times someone died (in Joseph's day by Pharaoh and in Jesus' day by King Herod Antipas).

Just as we say that recovery is a process and not an event, so too with honoring - it is with one's life pattern and not simply an event.

Thx for the continued wisdom all.  It gives me legitimate things to share with my daughter as needed.

In the past week, my ex’s fiancé (who I have known a long time, he is a “supernice guy” always trying to “help” the ex) flying monkeyed me.  Has no clue anything is wrong with my ex, even though my d16 has told me how he was the target of some rages and dissociative events over the past few years.  He claimed he agrees with 98% of my daughters problems with her mother (which does not seem true, although he sees mom’s behavior as curious and unusual).  He really wanted info on why the counselor supports my daughters decision to separate from mom and also to be completely non-contact.  He wants that info so he can tell her mother.  I told him it was about the behaviors my d16 had related and i described those behaviors as inappropriate and then pointed out the inappropriate violation of any boundaries my d16 had set against those behaviors.  That was it.  Take it or leave it, I didn’t care and understood.  I told him it is important that d16 get “time and space” to deal with this entire mess caused by her mother.

Today ex emailed me after ignoring prior messages regarding quarterly financial equalization.  She wants to know why she isn’t listed as a parental contact on the current counseling contract.  Said the counselor will not call her back and office won’t give info.  It’s clear they are trying to protect d16 from a release of counseling notes.  I told the counselor a month ago that I understand her not wanting the conflict with ex (ex had called her and I don’t think it went well) but should mother ultimately obtain case files she wouldn’t like what it demonstrated. 

My d16 has reiterated she wants mom out of her life completely.  I pause at that until d16 relates what her mother has done to her and then I find respect for her feelings. 

I think this is going to get rough for a while.  Ex has to be right and I think that might cause her to make trouble.  The counselor thinks she is as much npd as BPD.  We will see.

There is a countdown clock running... less than two years before D16 attains the adult age of 18 years.  Meanwhile she is choosing an older teen's option to "vote with her feet".

Ex’s fiancé is displaying mental cognizance similar to many who arrive here mystified why things are so bad.  They've been gaslit for so long and so intensely that they simply can't - or don't - get an objective perception and open their eyes to the reality.

"Yes, I agree with 98% of what D16 relates... but I still don't understand..." :(

Yeah, I have to just keep reminding myself (and her) that mom isn’t in a position to really do anything except try to poke at her using other people.

In many places, it is against the law to release the counseling notes to parents or talk to parents about what is discussed in therapy if what the parents learn is harmful to the child and will destroy the child's safety in counseling.

Right…I was told they can’t discuss what is said but must release the case file if a parent requests it formally.

In many places, the therapist has the legal right to not release the case file of the child to a parent even if formally requested when doing so in the therapist's opinion will damage the therapeutic relationship between the therapist and child. Otherwise, it would not be safe for many children to participate in therapy.

That is worth the counselor exploring.

I was able to keep my mother and the rest of my family at bay for more than two years by strategically “picking fights” with my mother followed by about 3 months of silence, so that it didn't appear that I was going no contact, as I was concerned about retaliation.

The issue is that your ex-W most likely interprets your daughter’s actions as a move in a game, and so she is now making her countermove. If your D can pretend to play the game she may just be able to make it to age 18 without your ex-W escalating the situation. Going no contact can be interpreted as an act of war by families high in narcissism, and things can get pretty nasty. You may wish to seek out counseling from someone who has experience with high-conflict, abusive family systems if things continue to intensify. I also wonder if emancipation could be an option, although that can take up two years in my state…

She has been telling people close to her including the counselor during their only discussion that I have alienated our daughter from her.  It’s funny because I’ve never talked bad about her to the kids and her fiancé tells everyone he can’t understand why she hates me so badly and talks so badly about me to people.

She can’t control our daughter and I don’t believe she plans to try.

I think she wants to find out what her liabilities are here before she starts crafting a plan to control the narrative.  From my perspective this is about my daughter and there is nothing to tell anyone.  I could care less what people think.

The problem isn’t what people think, it’s that your ex is probably going to do everything in her power to force contact with your D, especially if she has NPD traits.

I hope it never has to come to this, but I assume that until your D is 18 she cannot get a restraining order, so strategically appeasing her mother until she is 18 might be your D’s best option. As a teenaged girl I am sure she is well skilled in knowing how to push her mother’s buttons, for example, she could demand that her mother take accountability and apologize for her actions. And just to be clear, any communication would have to be via email and you would need to screen any replies her M may send. In my case my mother would not reply to my emails, and would “punish” me with the silent treatment, which was exactly the effect I was hoping for. I definitely do not suggest phone calls or in person contact, even with a therapist.

I certainly hope your D’s therapist has the option to withhold the information your ex is requesting and to not back down on that. Good luck to all of you.

Couscous this is good info….thank you.  My ex does play the “no response cold shoulder game.”

When a child cuts contact there can only be two reasons ( or both ). It's the parents' fault or the child's fault. It may cause some shame for the pwBPD to consider anything they did on their part- and shame is a very difficult feeling. To avoid shame, the explanation has to be that it is someone else's fault- the child's. So it makes sense her mother would do this and her finance would try to comfort her in this situation.

For your D though, this is dynamics and not personal to her. This is how her mother copes. Her mother may not ever be able to see her own part in this or be accountable but this is not your D's fault.

Thank you to everyone for listening and offering hope.

My daughter completed counseling about a week ago.  She has managed to deal with stresses caused by her mother’s family and seems very well adjusted.  She has stopped trying to control everything like school and sports, no longer has any shame/guilt,  and is really happy.  She no longer seems to fear her mother, but has no plans to reconnect with her for now.  It is really surprising to me that she has reached this place so quickly but I’m not complaining.  It’s wonderful.  I know there will always be some challenges for her but she is ok.

I hope this thread gives someone in the future some hope.

It's good to hear your D is happy and doing well. She seems to have a strong sense of direction for her age. I also think your support for her and her decision is crucial to her ability to make her own choice, as well as her own sense of self. I know you will continue to be this for her.

Great news!  You can assure her that she can keep in contact with her counselor, perhaps occasional sessions for a while, just to ensure her life doesn't suffer understandable setbacks or relapses.

Very happy to read your daughter is doing well and healing ! Good work on being a present, caring father !  :wee: I am happy for you both  :)