BPDFamily.com

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbuoRAC9lyg

 :heart:

It was kind of nice to hear her talk about herself like this, in a blanket, still comforting herself from the event. It shows us that even Dr. Ramani, despite all her wisdom and knowledge, meets toxic people too, and doesn't always know the best thing to do on to moment. That she ruminates too... It is a beautiful statement to her authenticity, and it goes to show we all get triggered at times, and that there is nothing wrong with it. As long as we get back up, and learn.

Listening to her really brought a clear image of my neighbor and his wife  to my mind. He has been insulting me since I moved here, and she is the nicest person (albeit it does feel like a front because of how her H acts). I think she truly means well for others, but became such a big people pleaser that to please a dysfunctional person, she would talk behind someone's back.

Another one of my neighbors is nice with me when it's only the two of us, but will discard me and push me out of the conversation when the other neighbor is there. I find people so very bizarre sometimes.

Like Dr. Ramani, I decided I'd steer clear of them. I might need to see them once in a while during the summer because our kids play together, but I now know better than to expect real friendship from them. And I certainly don't offer them my friendship.

Thanks for sharing this video Zacchira   :hug:

Riv3rWOlf,
I really appreciate all that you have shared in your reply.
It was helpful to me also to have Dr. Ramani share that she has experienced being mistreated when in a group for no apparent reasons.
It is so weird when you interact with people in which a person treats you nicely some of the time and along with others mistreats you for no apparent reasons at the flip of a switch. Good for you for setting healthy boundaries with your neighbors, understanding you can't be friends, and not trying to figure out what you have to do to be liked.
This video of Dr. Ramani's reflects the story of much of my major heartbreaks in my life. I have been disliked since birth by many family members and their enablers. I have also experienced having people who conveyed upon meeting me for the very first time that they disliked me without knowing anything about me or really having any meaningful interaction with me. On a positive note, there are people who have liked me because of my authenticity and integrity. My challenges are to have relationships with people I can be authentic with most of the time (Only young children can be authentic all the time.), and to know who I have to set really strict boundaries with, like you have with some of your neighbors.
I think what this all boils down to, is with certain people we are expected to play certain roles and if we don't, then we are considered a threat and mistreated. What do you think?

I am sorry you dealt with this kind of behavior on a constant basis, and in your family... It is horrible to be treated this way. And when it happens so often, and in your FOO, it must become very hard to see that it has nothing to do with you... But truly : it is not about who we are. It was not about Dr. Ramani. It is not about me. And it certainly is not about you.

Maybe they feel threaten, or maybe they do it with everyone who doesn't bend.

My guess is : they treat everyone this way that won't bend to them... It's just that people like us choose to disengage instead of bending. We call them out, we keep telling our truth... So they don't like us. I don't think it is that WE threaten them... I think it is that they feel constantly threaten... Someone different makes them doubt themselves, someone similar makes them compete. They can't fill their own void...

So I agree with you.

*Edited my introspective rant out to just answer the question. lol

Does anybody know if there is an equivalent YouTube series on BPD?

I know that BPD and NPD are two sides of the same coin. There is much that applies across the two. They have, however, different fabric and texture, day in, day out.

Although enablers are responsible for their behavior, I think a reason this person she described didn't stand up for her friend, Dr. Ramani, it's also because this behavior to her has been "normalized". If we don't know to stand up for ourselves, we can't stand up for anyone else.

I see my father as the "nice guy enabler" at times yet, he didn't stand up for us if my mother was being hurtful- but he also didn't stand up for himself. Enabling was the "normal" behavior in our family. I wonder if Dr. Ramani's friend saw her enabling behavior as "normal" too. The enablers keep the dysfunction going but are also subjected to it themselves.

Still, Dr. Ramani has the right to choose to stay out of this dynamic.

The main thing I have noticed about enablers is that they do not actually recognize toxic behaviors as being toxic. They are so deep in denial that they just don’t see it for what it is. Like the “nice” friend, referring to the insults as “silly”. She probably genuinely felt that that was the case and as such, it would not have occurred to her to check in with Dr Ramani after the incident.

But it seems like Dr Ramani may have some codependency blindspots. It sounds like she went to the party for purely codependent, people-pleasing reasons. And then she started playing the game of “Kick Me” … either that or she has one hella sweet tooth. lol

Couscous,
I think there are two kinds of enablers, those people who intentionally and with malice support the abuse of another person, and those who are completely unaware of enabling the abuse of another person. Clearly these two kinds of enablers are on a spectrum.
I believe the more aware we become of toxic dysfunctional behaviors, the more we want to help the person who is being abused, which is possible at times, and other times not.

I like Dr. Kim Sage for a channel on borderline abuse specifically.

https://youtu.be/yD2reQcfQtA

I could identify with her decision. Socially, I am more of an introvert when it comes to things like parties. I prefer smaller group get togethers. But there are different reasons to attend a Christmas party. What I found is that if I don't go to these events, people can take it as a snub. It would be co-dependent to go to influence what they think or not co-dependent to accept the invitation because we value the friendship and want to spend time with some people there and appreciate being included I got the sense that Dr. Ramani made the latter decision. "It's not my thing but I like my friend and want to go to her party".

Where she got blindsided by her co-dependent traits ( and I do too) is when faced by a rude person. My typical response is to freeze ( a fear response ) and the expectation that her friend would somehow take her side. But the friend has her own issues- she's either not so nice, co-dependent and raised with dysfunction herself. Then there's the self soothing behavior of stress eating the goodies.

I think the video she made was informative- she's got her own stuff going on and I think it's relatable. She admits to her own insecurities and it may be some co-dependent reasons to attend the party as what I have found is that acting out of co-dependency has unexpected results.

She learned from this though- now she sees another side of her friend.

What do you mean by this? The kick me game and the sweet tooth?

I'd say we all do things at times that we don't necessarily look forward to, and we do it because we are a social animal, and this is part of living with others, and being part of a community, or group... Kinda encoded in our DNA, which is what abusers exploit. It's not necessarily dysfunctional nor codependency.   

I missed the part about the binge-eating candies Notwendy mentioned. I personally don't think her behavior was codependent when confronted with the abuser. I saw it as her trying to de-escalate the situation, and when it failed to work, she left earlier, and she learned something. What should she have done? Abuse back? Scream back? She called her out by asking if she has done something to offend her... I do believe this was appropriate.

People often do things for very different reasons or a mixture of reasons. It can be so much easier to deal with young children as their wants and motivations are often transparent. With adults, there is a long history, and that history is especially complicated with people who grew up in extremely dysfunctional environments. Codependent can be a positive trait when the person helps a complete stranger and the complete stranger genuinely appreciates it, and the codependent feels appreciated. It is not a positive trait at all, when the codependent sacrifices their wellbeing for the unreasonable selfish demands of a higly dysfunctional person.
We often wonder why certain people treat us badly. It can not be personal at all or can be personal and impersonal at the same time. For example, narcissists are often scanning the environment for who will meet their needs. Many narcissists immediately take revenge on a person who they have just met or a person they have known for a long time, when they aren't treated exactly as they want. It is not personal when there are only two people around and they are meeting for the first time with no prior knowledge of each other's existance. It certainly is both personal and impersonal when a person is mistreated because they are the selected scapegoat of a group or family, and nobody stands up for the mistreated person because they are enablers.
When I am mistreated and it is impersonal, I usually can move on quickly unless the mistreatment is something I have to address for my own safety. When I am mistreated and it is personal, than I feel the need to understand it, especially if there are some things I can do that will make it easier for me to move on quickly. Most of the time, it is a sign for me that I have work to do on improving my boundaries. I ask myself questions like: How can I limit my interactions with this person? Was I asking for something from this person that they don't have the capacity to give?

After watching the first part of the video again I see even more codependent behavior. She even said, “Was I in my trauma bonded self, or am I just being nice? You tell me.” Well, “being nice” is a trauma response.

She accepted the invitation to a social event that this friend of hers was co-organizing to be “empathic”, because it was the “right thing to do”, and then after getting insulted more than a dozen times, instead of leaving she sticks around just so that she wouldn’t hurt her friend’s feelings. Then it gets even worse and she apologizes to the toxic woman, and then asks her if there is anything she can do to “appease” her ! — in other words. That is a the fawning response in action and it is literally the worst possible thing one can do in the face of bullying. That’s the part where she starts playing “Kick Me”. But I also think that in a place like L.A., one is really taking chances attending flashy social events if one is not able to dress the part, but that’s just my personal opinion. 

She also goes on to say that she is going to refuse to attend future invites from this friend but that instead of being honest about it, she is going to make up excuses (lie) to her friend. Really?

Her friendship with this “sweet woman” does not seem particularly healthy to me if she can’t be honest with her. I recently made a new mom friend, and she is very extroverted and always organizing mom’s night out events or other activities, and because she knows I am introverted she always makes sure to tell me that there’s no pressure on me to attend these events, and that she totally understands if I don’t feel up to it. So if Dr Ramani’s friends of 20 years isn’t able to accept that she’s not a big party goer, then I really wonder what kind if friend she really is.

Another questionable thing in this video is her story about how she screamed at one of her elders when he was being nasty to someone. That’s just going into persecutor mode, even if it’s on someone else’s behalf.
 

I have only watched a couple of her videos so I don't know of her work.

Part of managing co-dependency is recognizing our own behavior. It's not as if we get to a place where we don't slip into co-dependent behavior- it's that when we do, we recognize it and change our behavior.

So yes, I agree- Dr. Ramani has her defaults, and possibly made the video to help others recognize them.

Exactly. I think we are ALL, at times, faced with specific conditions in an environment we are not comfortable in... I sure know if I get anxious, or if I start off in an uncomfortable place, it becomes harder and harder to get back to ground zero and to navigate a  situation.  And it is not always possible nor easy to leave said situation. Happens to all of us, really... I think the key here to get over it and stop the rumination is self-compassion.

I could be aware of all my co-depency tendancies, have no blindspots, and STILL, I would surely fall off the bike, because new situations arise that we can't predict that trigger us. We are humans, we get tired, we get stressed. The point is to be able to get back on the bike faster, not to never fall off it. The latter is simply not possible, and having this kind of objective in mind, and expecting others to not fall off their bike either, is a result of the perfectionnist in ourselves that won't tolerate mistakes.

I think the sweet tooth comment was referring to Dr Ramani confessing she stayed an extra 30 minutes to have dessert?
I found this clip extremely helpful to me. My Dad was a huge enabler, and I do think he was aware that my Mom's behavior was abnormal and hurtful, but he admitted at times that although he knew this,  but felt he had to try to appease her since he "had" to live with her. I think he was so enmeshed and saw the family unit as a whole, that he on some unconscious level thought we needed to appease her as well. I was never seen in his eyes as a separate adult individual, and since my Mom is still alive, I continue to be seen as an extension of her and not my own person. I still struggle with having my own thoughts and feelings and being comfortable when asserting my needs. I am realizing now how my Dads enabling ways and his assertion that I enable my Mom too has had such a negative impact on me.

I admire Dr. Ramani for having the courage to share this experience. When we come from a narcissistic family system and continue to work on being our best self, we will have traumatic reenactments from time to time, and get better with practice and awareness on how to handle these upsetting incidents which are no longer a way of life for us like they were before (instead just a temporary uncomfortable experience).
There are people whom I have known since childhood who come from truly healthy loving families. They seem to send out a message that eventually makes them of no interest to people who are intentionally cruel to others. My NPD sister seems to have given up on recruiting certain people in the community who are always kind and respectful to me, who have become my lifelong friends. There are numerous people in my community who are the toxic enablers of my sister and the rest of the family. I have had so many similar experiences with toxic enablers like the one Dr. Ramani shares in the video.
I feel like I will always be somewhat attactive to the wrong kind of people. I am learning to set healthier boundaries and am becoming less of a target. One of my newer rules, is if people don't show any interest in me, than that is a big red flag. In the past, I have had so many people get mad at me, once I tried to make the conversation reciprocal, after I had spent hours listening to their monologues.  

Totally agree, and unfortunately for her audience, Dr Ramani did not do this. But I do not believe Dr Ramani ever really addresses codependency in her videos, which is not totally surprising since mainstream psychology denies that codependency is a “thing”, and is why my previous T would skirt around the issue whenever I raised it in my sessions. The construct of codependency comes out of the addictions field, (which apparently is considered to be the red-headed step-child in the field of psychology) and traditional psychotherapy has not embraced it as a whole.

As a side note, this therapist believes that codependency is a personality disorder: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fSWvNUmPizs

I listened to the full episode and think he might be on to something, and helps explain why one probably needs to stay in 12 step group for life, and may even permanently have a sponsor, in order to not slip back into old, ingrained patterns. I do not personally believe that BPDfamily is an adequate substitute, but it is a great adjunct.

Dr. Ramani also talks about BPD, a quick YouTube search will give you many hits https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=bpd+ramani

I like her as she explains stuff in non-technical terms that everyone can understand.

I tend to agree with this. Of all the times I sought out counseling for my own family issues, the topic of co-dependency didn't come up. I had heard of it but didn't understand it. I also think the term is misleading due to the word "dependency" in it and I think that people resist considering it because they aren't "dependent" in the classic sense in that they are self sufficient when it comes to meeting their basic needs. My father is an example of that- accomplished in the workplace and the wage earner, yet, emotionally co-dependent on my mother who has been financially and emotionally dependent on him. I also learned that I could be self sufficient and co-dependent too.

I also didn't get the addiction model until I was in 12 step groups as I don't use drugs or have an issue with alcohol. I assumed that's what 12 step groups were only about. Eventually a counselor suggested I attend one for co-dependency.  It really did feel strange at first, but I learned a lot about addictions there.

I see the  program as an ongoing thing, although one can measure progress.

Personnally, the term and description of "codependency" feels icky to me, because the whole thing seem to erupt from natural, innate human tendencies. Those tendencies can, of course, get to a point of dysfunction, but I don't believe them to be a lifelong, chronic condition.

I think the behaviors behind "codependency" stem from healthy, innate impulses that turned wrong because of bad environment and conditions, and elevated stress level (survival mode), but that they can be recalibrated with support if one puts in the effort and increase self-awareness... Being loving and kind, being nice, is NOT trauma; it's human. We all crave connection, intimacy and a safe community at our very core; we are a social animal. You can have healthy boundaries and still want to be nice and kind to strangers, to your community, to friends and family members, extended and close.

Even sacrifices... Sometimes, we sacrifice our well being on the moment because we want to gain something in the future. This process is done for finance, for work, responsibilities, and in relationships. Sacrificing one-self is NOT always a bad thing, on the contrary. It can actually give you an edge in the future, and has been proven numerous time to be an evolutionary advantage.

I found an expert who clarified what I felt beautifully (bonus point because she was one of those who worked on developing the term) - Ann W. Smith :
https://www.thesoberworld.com/2013/11/01/clarifying-codependency-finding-new-language-old-term-1978-2013/

Some quotes that resonated with me:

For me, two thought processes lead me away from use of the popular label:

Family Systems theory which is simply the belief that when one person in a family is hurting all will show signs of pain and Attachment theory which is based on the fact that human beings are hard wired to attach and need loving connection with others in order to be healthy.

...

Trying to find human love in our hearts and kindness in our words and actions does a great deal to heal deep wounds. It also improves feelings of self worth.

...

In the end, I guess it all comes down to : if the term works for you and don't make you feel bad about yourself, then good, you should use it. But I agree with Mrs.Smith that labelling people that are struggling as being "codependent" can actually be more detrimental than helpful.

I guess this could apply to most PDs, but then... Most PDs are antisocial and include severe abuse of others (which I don't think is innate)... Codependency doesn't.

My views might change overtime, but for now, I see a big difference between Cluster B's PDs and the behaviors exhibited by "codependents"

Here's another eloquent take that puts well in words my own reserve with the term:
https://fairytaleshadows.com/dont-label-survivors-of-narcissistic-abuse-codependent/

In addition, codependency can also be mistaken for trauma bonding.  Trauma bonding occurs when someone’s identity has been broken down and their boundaries have been eroded through traumatic experiences that were highly inequitable and resulted in a power imbalance.  

Yes, they are dependent, but for other reasons. Seen through the lens of the drama triangle, codependents need (aka, are dependent on,) victims to rescue in order to feel OK. That’s why spouses of alcoholcs used to be called called “co-alcoholics”, because they were dependent on the alcoholic continuing to drink. In the same manner, it could be argued that unrecovered adult children and spouses of pwBPD need the BPD to continue behaving badly. (Interestingly, Dr Fox a BPD specialist on YouTube says that he advises his BPD clients that they often have to distance themselves from their families of origin in order to recover from BPD since their family members unconsciously provoke them to act out, and as such, hinder their recovery efforts.)

The Rescuer role allows one to feel blameless and morally superior, or one-up, to the Victim (the pwBPD, the alcoholic, etc). Seen through the lens of biology, feeling one-up lowers anxiety, because being it releases serotonin which promotes feelings of safety, and as such, lowers cortisol levels. Interestingly, the other chemical that reduces cortisol is oxytocin — a chemical that is in very short supply in BPD families. Oxytocin is only generated when you feel emotionally safe with another person, and as we are all well aware, emotional safety does not exist in BPD/ dysfunctional families.

So it really makes perfect sense that if you grew up in an emotionally unsafe family that you would have had to find a way to feel safe, and being able to generate serotonin by adopting the Rescuer role and caretaking your BPD parent was one way to do that. The tricky part is unlearning this in adult life.

RW, I am also not crazy about the word. Al-Anon doesn’t even use it. Overfunctioning is a term from the family systems field that I also prefer to codependency.

Incidentally, I read Ann Smith’s book, Grandchildren of Alcoholics, earlier this year. In the book she recommends that adults who were raised in dysfunctional families take their recovery very seriously and advocates attending a multi-day residential treatment program, kind of a mini-rehab. I am considering attending the program she created: https://www.caron.org/breakthrough-program

This is how I interpreted it- I don't know if it's the real reason. At some point, it seemed the field of psychology was moving towards a standardization similar to other sciences. In some science experiments, there is an independent variable ( the thing that changes) and the dependent variable- the thing that changes according to change in the independent variable.

In dysfunctional relationships- there are two people emotionally reacting to each other. Victim needs a Rescuer, Rescuer needs a victim. When someone takes on the rescuer/enabler role, their focus is on the other person, the other person's moods or emotions. They are not making decisions or doing things based on their own self will - they are making decisions according to the other person. If one wants to come up with a term that could align with a scientific term, these two people are behaving like two dependent variables. One changes, the other reacts, and vice versa. The partner is a co-dependent.

This takes the term out of having a critical context. It's descriptive. There's nothing wrong with the behaviors of being kind, caring or loving but the emotionally healthy relationship that embraces these behaviors is "interdependent". It's hard to know the difference as the same behaviors can exist in both. Here is how I was taught to tell the difference:

Everyone does some things they don't really want to do but we do them because it's important to us in some way. Are we doing them because we are willing to do them out of our own choice, or because we are afraid to say no, or want someone to like us.

One example for me is cooking dinner. We bring our issues into marriage. I brought in fear of someone being angry at me and people pleasing. My H brought in the emotions connected with food in his family. There was some food insecurity growing up. They did not go hungry but there was some competition at the table for the food that was there. Food was also connected to love. His mother always cooked meals as a sign of love, so no food=no love.

I do cook and am good at it, but realistically don't want to do it all the time. Well, if I didn't cook, H didn't feel loved and got angry. Logically he understood sometimes one gets busy. Emotionally he felt hurt and angry. That scared me. I began to cook not out of willingness but out of fear of him being upset with me.

Emotionally, there's another factor. BPD mother didn't cook. I learned to cook at an early age. I don't know what it must be like to have someone cook for me like that but H wasn't going to do it as this made him feel deprived. So here I was, expected to provide something I didn't experience myself. What I began to feel was resentment. A lot of resentment.

There's nothing wrong with cooking a meal for one's family. I actually prefer to do it as I like my own cooking. But cooking out of fear, cooking from a place of emotional deprivation, cooking as a way to control my H's feelings and avoid him being angry- that was being co-dependent, inauthentic, and dishonest. I learned that the key to knowing the difference between when I was being caring and being co-dependent was how resentful I felt.

Being co-dependent may appear being nice but it's not being nice at all. It's controlling, and it's dishonest. And it's no gift to anyone to smile and be nice while feeling resentment. We all have times where we temporarily suspend our own needs for the sake of someone else, particularly small children if they need attending to. Co-dependency is putting people's needs before ours to the point of self neglect. There's no place for it being a critical term and it shouldn't be a critical term. Self love and compassion is important. If someone is being co-dependent, they need more of that and not criticism.

I have only recently started noticing how my anxiety level skyrockets when my H is even slightly under-the-weather about something, and boy, do I feel like I absolutely must do whatever I can to “fix” things, and make things better. But if I must “do” something, perhaps it would be to offer him a 20-second hug, which would boost both of our oxytocin levels.  :)

Agreed.

Also : being nice might appear codependent, but not be codependent at all.

Being codependent seems like the kind of label someone can only truly apply to themselves, as interdependence and codependance can literally look identical to anyone else outside the relationship.

I've done things I didn't want to do before because this is what was expected of me... And ended up having a wonderful time and not resenting my decision at all. It wasn't me being codependent,  it was me taking a chance on life, going against my survival need to stay out of harms way. I could have, just like Dr. Ramani, ended up in the crossfire of a mean person... It wouldn't have been codependance, just life. After the fact though it would have been easy to say: "I was being codependant, forced myself to do something I didn't want to do! " Because things turned wrong...but things don't always turn wrong, and it isn't codependence to want to support a friend, and please a friend. It's human instinct, and attachment theory.

Is the choice to lie about the real reasons afterward codependance? Might not even be it! Might just be a way to "keep the door open" and not burn any bridges. I certainly didn't tell my old boss why I quit his toxic work environment... Not codependance: it's planning ahead, the guy could still give me contracts down the road.

What I am saying is :we often say to be careful when labelling BPD and NPD.. the same applies to codependence, especially since the traits of codependence are awfully close to regular human behaviors... What changes is what the person feels WITHIN, and no one else BUT this person can know that.

This hit me like a ton of bricks:

[Rescuers] prioritize others’ needs ignoring their own, because they project on others their own unmet needs.Most of all they have difficulties in identifying their needs and desires.

“Difficulty” identifying our own needs is the understatement of the century. We are terrified of doing so since having our own needs is a criminal offense when you have a BPD or narcissistic parent/spouse. We associate having needs with punishment in the form of emotional abandonment, or other abuse, which means our anxiety levels spike when we try to engage in self-care. Of course we are going to resort to “other-care” in place of self-care, and the problem is that it actually does work! But only in the immediate term, like any drug does, but at long-term costs to our relationships, and in many cases, our physical health.

 Engaging in self-care activities actually spikes my anxiety massively, probably because of my relentless inner abusive critic guilt-tripping me by telling me that I am a bad, selfish person for doing so. I already feel like I’m indulging myself enough as is by spending 3 hours per week in therapy, (between individual and group therapy) plus “wasting time” on BPDfamily,  lol But I really need to do some kind of anxiety reducing self-care every day, which right now feels impossible. But maybe I need to just “feel the fear and do it anyway.” When I do manage to force myself to do something like yoga or stretching (boosts endorphins which also lowers cortisol levels) I feel wonderful afterwards.

Feel the fear and do it anyway: maybe I will make that my mantra and New Year’s resolution. lol

https://www.susannejegge.com/en/2019/05/07/drama-triangle-part-1/

It’s about the motive. It could be the identical action, but if you were motivated by fear, then it would be codependent. It can be very tricky to identify one’s hidden motives because we are experts at self-deception.

But when you do something for codependent reasons, aka as gretting hooked onto the drama triangle, you feel crappy afterwards. So if you felt good afterwards then you can be pretty sure that you did the healthy thing even though you felt some resistance about doing it. Avoidance of doing uncomfortable things is not being authentic.

Dr Ramani felt so crappy after that event, even though she said she felt good about her decision, that she had to make a video about it, and was still ruminating days later. A sure sign she went for all the wrong reasons.  

This is a projection though, ain't it?

I don’t follow.

How harshly we judge others, is a reflection of how we feel about ourselves deep down inside. I am getting better at not being so upset about how I get mistreated by people who really don't even know me or care to know how I feel, and then moving on, which is a sign that I am starting to heal. For me, the biggest challenge is not to be so angry with and hurt by the flying monkeys, or we could say toxic enablers, which sounds more judgemental.

What I am happy to share is I am suddenly feeling relieved to be distancing myself from the flying monkeys. It is painful and hurts deeply as most of these people are my closest family members, yet being around them most of the time ends up with me experiencing more cycles of abuse of either me or other family members. Some of the abuse is criminal. Since I was a child, I was horrified by how my parents went on and on criticizing their scapegoated siblings, who did everything to be loved by the family, and instead were scapegoated even when they went overboard to be kind and generous. I am not so enmeshed as I was. I am starting to enjoy healthier people and feel worthy of their friendships. I will be alone for the holidays, yet not sad, as what I have wanted for so long, to be comfortable in my own skin most of the time, is starting to happen, and I am feeling pretty good most of the time.

If you mean that I could projecting my own “shadow” onto Dr Ramani, I can assure you that this is not the case. While I do have many codependent tendencies, fortunately approval seeking and people-pleasing are not behaviors I typically engage in. If anything, I have the opposite problem…  lol

In the past I never would have attended an event like that due to my social anxiety, unless my friend would have punished me in some way for not going. Then I would have gone to avoid abandonment. Today, as a recovering codependent, I would make sure to not have friends like that in the first place.

But if the event had been in my friend’s honor, like say, a graduation party, then in a case like that I would attend out of love, even though it would not have been my preference. But I would certainly not stay long if I had to go alone, even if it meant missing dessert. :)

But from how Dr Ramani described her friend’s event, it did not sound like the kind of event that would have compelled her to attend out of love. Her friend was the co-host, so that means it wasn’t in her honor, and as such, Dr Ramani’s desire to be supportive and empathic seems like it was misplaced.

I will just get straight to the point then...

Let's recap about what we know :
- Dr. Ramani attended an event for a friend she had known for a long time. She didn't know anyone there, but her friend, who she describes as a sweet, nice person. And she felt good going there for her.
- People sneered at her. They weren't nice.
- One of her friend's friends insulted Dr. Ramani during the public event.
- Dr. Ramani asked what she did wrong to the insulting person.
- Dr. Ramani's friend called her insulting friend "silly", didn't say anything.
- Dr. Ramani's stayed longer than she "should have", namely she stayed for dessert.
- She still left early, before the end of the event.
- Called a friend she thought were safe to help her get back to ground zero.
- Refused to attend another event, and told her friend some excuses for it instead of the truth.

From this, you went on to say she had "codependent blindspots", That she felt bad because "she had gone for all the bad reasons", that she's either codependent or she has "a hell of sweet tooth lol".

Let's turn that another way... Here's a story of mine :
- My neighbors were outside with their kids the same age my daughter is. She wanted to go. I know it is good for her to be with kids her age, spend time outside playing. I really didn't feel like talking with my neighbors, but it was the good thing to do for my daughter, whom I love.
- I went outside with her (she is still too young to go by herself). Didn't much engage with the neighbors, but still, kinda had to be civil, I mean... we are neighbors.
- One of them starts picking on me.
- Should I have left?
- Well, I didn't. My daughter was very happy playing with her friends. And I am an adult: I can defend myself.
- I was civil. The picking didn't really stop. I didn't laugh, I returned a few comments, but mostly, kept to myself, and decided to focus on the children.
- The guy doesn't stop. No one is saying anything.
- I start losing my ground, I am a bit confused. Again, I am staying for daughter though, I don't want to hurt her,  because I love her. But I do end up leaving before everyone else with D, under the guise of: I have a diner to cook.
Was I codependent? Do I have blindspots because I don't wish to escalate things with someone I will see again soon? Because I wanted to provide my daughter with some time to play?

Now, you might say it's different because it was my child... But is it, really? Dr. Ramani's friend mattered to her. She is there, there are a lot of factors at play... She is a "public face", maybe she wants to keep herself steady, not lose face. Once you are there, I mean, you are there. There are A LOT of reasons to stay at an event OTHER than being codependent with the friend who invited you.

I ended up ruminating the whole thing, not because I didn't leave, also not because I went in the first place, not even because I "should have" told him to stop, or called him out (I kinda did, like Dr. Ramani, pointed out his behavior was inappropriate, but this kind of people don't much care for that, do they?)

I ended up ruminating because I was picked on for no reason. The guy was looking for a reaction. He didn't get one. So in a way, I won. But I still felt like  :cursing:. It wasn't codependence though, it was me being a mother and forcing myself out of my comfort zone for someone I love, because it was the nice thing to do for D.

Staying for dessert is often the polite thing to do, in most social circles. I see Dr. Ramani's trying to be polite, might be a boundary of hers, too, not codependence, necessarily.

What I see, through your comments, is a lot of extrapolation to project codependent behaviors on the story of one person who wanted to be nice for a friend and ended up in a wolf's den, then decided to leave and not go into this den again. Being codependent would be to keep going again, and again, and trying to fix the wolf and the sheep. Dr. Ramani was not being codependent. She was viciously attacked for no apparent reason and decided not to go again and to put boundaries in place.

And when this happens (getting attacked for no reasons): we all get triggered, we all lose our footings, and we all wonder what we could have done differently. No one likes to be thrown stones by strangers, and it sometimes takes some times to realize it had nothing to do with us, and we ruminate it, because it is unfair.

If I was Dr. Ramani, I would have been deeply hurt by your comments. I trust her words when she says she was happy to go. I trust what she is conveying. And I don't see codependence. I see someone who was ambushed. Not trying to guiltrip you here. I kinda tried to convey it differently before... I still think there is projection going on on your part. You've been direct with people on here before, I am allowing myself to be direct with you right now, that this is what I saw in your comments, and because you requested more explanations on my previous question. We all project at times. I do think it is easier when it is on a "celebrity". It doesn't make it true though.

Well, since Dr Ramani did ask, “Was I in my trauma-bonded self, or was I just being nice. You tell me.”, I would have no problem answering her question with my honest assessment of the situation, which is that yes, Dr Ramani, I personally that think you were in your trauma-bonded self.  :)

In fact, I may just write a comment to her video to that effect.  :(

But it’s OK, we don’t have to agree about this.

And there, might be just our understanding of the word that differ. From what I personally understand, "being in our trauma-bonded self" is not the same as being codependent, and having a traumatized self is not necessarily enabling either. When my neighbor attacked me, it, of course, triggered me, brought me back to a bad place. "Trauma-bonded", "C-PTSD", "being triggered", those can be/are widely different than what is generally described as being "codependent". They don't all look the same, and they are not necessarily about control, nor about being inauthentic, nor about being a rescuer... You can be traumatized, triggered, and still be authentic and not try to control someone else.

I have a "trauma-bonded self" that shows up sometimes, and not with people I am "codependent with"... I am actually not very codependent, more of a loner like you. But this "traumatized self" just "resurfaces". Which is exactly why I don't like the identification of "being codependent". It is much more complex than that.

Also... Interestingly, the fawning response is the most natural response for most socialized, emotionally mature humans (especially women), and a lot of psychologists actually don't recognize it as a reaction under threat because of that.

Not necessarily at this point.


As long as you weren’t getting too activated by this point I think this was a good move.


At this point I think it was the loving thing to do to leave, both for you, and for your D. It is more important for your D to have an emotionally regulated mother than it is to play a few extra minutes with other children. She had some time to play, and perhaps your neighbor will take the hint that his behavior was not acceptable, and maybe he will be on better behavior in future. I also think you were a good role-model for your D to see that you don’t accept put-downs from chauvinistic men.

Had you stayed beyond this point though, even out of love for your D, I would have wondered if there could be some self-sacrificing going on since there probably are other ways for you to meet your D’s socialization needs that don’t entail your needing to tolerate mean-spirited behavior. Of course as parents we are required to make some sacrifices at times, but we really shouldn’t make it a habit of meeting our children’s needs at our own expense. Parenting isn’t supposed to be a zero-sum game, and I think it is important that we don’t go to the opposite extreme of our mothers and become martyrs in the name of being loving.

I think we do things for children that we may not do for adults. Adults are not usually potential "victims" on the Karpman triangle because they have choices, and are responsible for themselves. Children are dependent on parents. They don't always have choices.  Riv3rW0lf - your choice to stay or leave the play situation would impact your D either way- she didn't have the choice.

I think a key to whether or not we are acting from a co-dependent place is our feelings. Do we feel resentment towards the person we are doing something for, or putting ourselves out for? You went to the play date for your D, stayed for your D. Did you feel resentment towards her? Probably not. The neighbor was being a jerk, but he wasn't the reason you stayed.

With Dr. Ramani- she went to the party to be social and supportive of her friend. Another friend was being a jerk. I think it was when the friend enabled the situation that Dr. Ramani began to feel differently about her. Dr. Ramani now has new information about that friend- and now has a decision to make about how much she wants to trust that friendship. What she decides isn't so much about the decision is that she makes it and owns it.

One aspect of co-dependency is that people who are co-dependent are not happy. If we do something nice for someone, or if we choose to put up with something- we usually don't feel badly about it. Co-dependents are taking a role on the Karpan triangle. They may start as rescuers but end up feeling like victims. The focus is on the other person. "She did this, he did that" not on their own actions. One reason I accepted that possibility was that, I was the one who went to counseling. I was not happy. It was the counselor who used the term and suggested 12 step groups.

I have another example of someone being angry at me. I was at work and there was a stressful situation - work related. I happened to accidentally walk in on some people talking about it. I stopped to listen since I could tell it wasn't a personal conversation and it was something I needed to know too. I then asked a question and a co-worker snapped at me.

I recognized my own reaction to an angry co-worker and left the room to go calm down. I then went through the situation thinking of all the ways I must have messed up for this to happen.

Meanwhile, the co-worker calms down and feels badly about snapping at me and approaches me later to apologize. We talk about it and it turns out that she assumed I walked in for the purpose of interrupting her and she was stressed over the situation. Seems she has her own emotional reactions to that. But we both talk it out, smooth out this misunderstanding, and own our own behavior.

It's the last part that doesn't seem to happen between disordered people. I think it's possible that without the work on co-dependency, I may have felt more like a victim on the triangle in this situation, maybe it would have gone another way. We all can act out under stress- seems she did, but she owned her behavior and apologized which people with PD's don't usually do. It's not that we never mess up or have a default behavior but we can learn to see ourselves doing it, and consciously change it if we choose.

I think Dr. Ramani's story would be different if she didn't have some self awareness of what happened. It may have been from victim perspective- " I went to that party and that b--was mean to me and my friend was mean to me too and all I was doing was being nice" but it was more of an "oops I did it again" story and what to do differently next time.

Could have been self-sacrifice, but truth be told, I remember I chose to stay to try and see if I could ground myself back while still in the presence of a "threat". Because this is one of the skills I am trying to develop. I was acutely aware of what was happening within me and around me, and I chose to use the situation to work on myself. And to some extent, it did work, and this made me happy about my healing work. My reaction then was much more controlled than it would have been two years ago.

I actually think this neighbor is a great training ground to desensitize myself and to develop feeling safe within myself, even when someone isn't "safe".  It's a good training ground to try different strategies and how they work for me. Because at the end of the day : he is just a neighbor, he is not family, not a friend, not anyone I care about. Just some random dude who thinks it ok to pick on people he barely knows.

Notwendy,

I've read a bit on codependency since I've seen it mentionned on here many times. I honestly don't think it applies to me. I think I am well within a healthy range when it comes to dealing with issues at home, and being authentic with H and with my children. I now think it is actually a normal part of being human to not enjoy direct confrontation : but I often go in anyway. We fight, and we solve our fights. We are honest with one another. We aren't perfect, but the both of us together seem to approximate someone "normal".

Do I over function at times? Sure. But I am genuinely satisfied with my life right now, and incredibly grateful that I got here. 

My husband often says I have to relax, I work too much. But what if overfunctionning, and working, actually makes me happy? What if it doesn't get in the way of playing with my kids, being silly with them and taking time off when I need it? What if my overfunctionning is actually who I am?

Might be what I became following certain traumas, but it doesn't make it bad, as long as I can identify when I slip from happy to triggered, and as long as I allow myself a safe space to be tired, which I do. Overfunctionning (whatever that is, truly, because OTHERS seem to say I overfunction, when I just feel I am going at normal pace, doing what I need to do) is not necessarily a bad thing. Just like codependent behaviors are not necessarily bad things either. A lot of those are natural responses to life events.

There are A LOT of psychology books today, and A LOT of theories, forum, videos, blogs... And they are all based on this idea of the "normal person", as if this person even existed. And anything that doesn't match our expectations of what should be normal, must be a problem. ... Well... Not always. It is often just life and someone trying to navigate it. The choices might not always be the best ones on the moment, but it doesn't necessarily warrant a diagnosis.

Sometimes, the diagnosis works for the person, and it's ok, I get that too. You mostly talk about yourself when you write on here, and I respect that. You talk about your experience, and then other can decide if it works for them or not, based on what you share. And I do think this is the right way to approach this.

I think, in matters of the head and heart, we have to be mindful of how we say things, because most of what we will see is terribly biased by who we are and what we have been through. It doesn't mean we are wrong, nor that we shouldn't offer our knowledge and wisdom, but I do think there are gentle ways to do it, and ways that will only put people that needs support and help off. 

Riv3rW0lf-

It may not be about you at all. On my part, I wasn't happy, to the point of seeking out counseling. I think that's a main difference. If it's not an issue for you, then it's not. For me, I felt I needed to make a change.

That's the point I was trying to make. Co-dependent behavior causes distress for the person. People may over function at times for different reasons, but if they aren't distressed over it, they'd not seek help.

I don't feel resentful doing things for children, even if it's overfunctioning, or even at work sometimes if the job needs to be done but having learned that if I begin to feel too much resentment- I may be crossing the line has helped me to learn where that line is for me. I think it's an individual situation- where that "line" is.

If you are feeling OK with what you are doing- that's a significant difference.

This is so interesting, because for me, an indirect approach actually doesn’t work. If I have a blindspot then I am literally blind to my behavior, so I need, and appreciate, a more direct approach, even if I disagree with the other person’s assessment. But maybe it’s a cultural thing. As they say, different strokes for different folks.

To me the entire purpose of this message board is for us to help each other address our blindspots since this is not something one can do on one’s own, even if the truth may be hard to hear at times. But am willing to admit that I may be in the minority.

I am the first to admit that I am heavily biased in favor of family systems theory and Transactional Analysis and quite skeptical of traditional psychology. It could be because my first exposure to psychology was through Non-violent Communication which departs from traditional psychology in a major ways, as does family systems theory and TA. But I have been able to make some serious changes in my relationships with some of my family members, and just today my sister, who has been shunning me for the last 2 years, called me and we, shockingly, actually had a nice chat. I have also been able to reconcile with one of my BPD brothers. I also have “unmeshed” from my father, although I still have a long ways to go with respect to my mother and other brother.

Maybe not.

You know, I don't think you truly said anything wrong, if anything, I am on the other side of a phone, trying to read sentences that might be read various ways by various persons. A good example is me reading all the comments of FormFlyers with the voice of Sam Elliott since I know he has an "epic mustach".

Maybe some turn of sentences seems very blunt to me, mainly because they don't seem to leave much room to something else? Like "A sure sign she went for all the wrong reasons." When disagreeing with a statement that is followed by this, it's like I feel put in front is a truth I don't agree with...and if I want to open it up, it then feels like "confrontation".

This is all projection on my part though, I see that now.

At the end of the day :this is a forum, and I am reading someone else, on the other side of their phone. So truly, the only thing I can see is myself, right?

I guess, I am triggered by those kind of sentences, and maybe I have to figure out why. Pretty sure it has to do with my conspiracist father who's words is always truth. There is never much place in disagreeing with him.

So I would officially like to tell you I am sorry, Couscous. I don't think you did anything wrong, nor even said anything wrong. I know, because you are here, that you come from a very sweet place in your heart, wanting to help people. And it was truly never about you.

In the end : I just disagreed with your views in the video, and got anxious at the idea of stating it, because from some sentences in your text, I got the impression there wasn't any place for other views. This is me though.

If you find a lot of people react this way overtime, maybe this could be part of why, but if most people around you don't mind it, then you have nothing to modify, and I will deal with my own triggers ! Fell off my bike, again  :wee:

RW, apology accepted.  :hug: Have a wonderful Christmas.