BPDFamily.com

Hi there, so I'm new here and I guess this is my introduction post.

My husband shows what I think are traits of BPD although nothing is diagnosed. We were together a couple of years before we got married, a year further before we bought a house, and it's been another 4 years since then. We have no kids. Looking back I see maybe some traits showing from the early days, but its really only the last 3 or so years that it really got noticable. I think as responsibilities started adding up the more we took on (e.g. the house, pets) the stress got too much. He basically had a breakdown. We went from me taking slightly more of the household responsibilities (I'd lived independently for years before we met while he had not; he was learning slowly) to suddenly it was all on me. And not only finances, scheduling, life admin, but chores, and keeping him calm enough to function, and getting him into therapy... I feel like I stopped being a wife and started being a carer. My workload was huge, then I'd come home to more.

3 years on with a load of barely useful generic therapy, he's more stable and I'm trying to recover from burnout. Now I start seeing the issues more. I still feel like a carer not a wife. I realised how much of my home time is spent swallowing down my feelings because if I even hint he might be wrong about something or at fault even accidently it can trigger an argument and tears, and then he will lock himself away for the rest of the day - literally leaving me to deal with everything on my own. Keep my mouth shut and have some help (not full help, but some) or start something and have none. I started having a social life again and realised how little encouragement I get at home too. Our last argument where he said "how upsetting it was to him to see me snacking when I keep saying I need to get my diet in order" - when he's the one bringing home donuts and icecream actively giving them to me (I have no food willpower, I'm well aware and working on it). I compared this to being a few weeks into a fitness class recently. My instructor mentioned I was making progress, offered some tips and a challenge, and I didn't know how to respond to someone actually encouraging me to be better.

I've noticed that if I try and (calmly) enforce some boundaries about my time, or lay out some expectations, the result is either him locking himself away again or he starts subtly doing things to deliberately stress me out to get back at me. Its like living with a teenager but with no hope he'll grow out of it and you can't just tell him the move out.

Finally I told him that I'm unhappy and we need to get some help if this relationship is going to last. Booked a session with marriage counsellor coming up soon. His opinion was "if you want it, you book it" and he can't think of anything wrong in our relationship apparently. The whole event kicked off into a huge upset too - my pictures where taken off the wall, his wedding ring off for days, slept in the spare room for a few days, flat out ignoring me. He's currently in a super productive, doing all the chores around the house to prove a point stage so he can use it later as a "see, I do help and I am useful" statement. I don't know if counselling is going to help my marriage or prove it's not going to work. I'm not even sure which option I'd prefer at this point. I range from so upset I feel sick to my stomach at the thought of not having him there and having to figure out how to handle our joint friends, to craving the freedom and lack of anger and stress I might have, and finally fear of the logistics and emotional nightmare that separating would be.

I don't know what to write more so I guess I'll just sign off here. Thank you for letting me vent.

I can completely relate to your situation. I look back on different situations with my husband and think “why didn’t I get this earlier?” We don’t have children together (which I am grateful for) but all children are grown and live out of state.
I am currently reading stop walking on eggshells, third edition and splitting because I don’t know if I should stay in the marriage or file for divorce. I’ve also listened to loving someone with bpd.
My husband isn’t in any kind of treatment for BPD or his alcoholism (another disease he has) but he is seeing a counselor. I haven’t noticed any improvement since he started seeing the counselor (only about a month). In fact, I think he is deteriorating. My husband threw his ring into a river so he doesn’t even have it anymore to put back on.
I wish I could offer you some solid advice but I can’t. The things that are helpful to me are reading, researching, and seeing a therapist myself to sort through the issues. So much of your post is so familiar.

Thank you for your reply, it immediately feels better knowing someone else gets it. I’ll have to look up those books too.
My husband sees a counsellor fortnightly and has done for years now on top of other things like CBT. I don’t know it made much of a difference at all to be honest. 

This is very relatable.

Towards the end of my r/s with uBPDstbxw she would withdraw / withhold interaction. I was too burned out from the "not fun" (mostly caretaking) parts of the r/s and didn't have any bandwidth for the "fun" (time together, affectionate) parts.

When she DID want to spend time together, she didn't get the response she wanted from me and would withdraw to another room. She would then be resentful towards me later for not spending time with her. Her withdrawal pushed me away and made me feel guilty, reinforcing and perpetuating the cycle.

I'll rightfully take some blame for not always being proactive in initiating time together or following thru on her requests. What I will no longer accept is the guilt she laid on me for failing to always be 100% available 100% of the time...

Instead, I must extend myself some grace by acknowledging how burnt out I really was (and how unfair/unreasonable her expectations of me were, given how little she brought to the table at that time).

I wish this didn’t sound so familiar, but I feel like I could have written this post myself. I don’t have advice because I am in the exact same place (except with kids).

I would love to know from others as well if this all sounds typical. I find it really hard to come back now that I am at the point of feeling like I have a teenager (husband) on top of my actual kids. I try to pull back and set boundaries but it is a disaster every single time. It’s just easier to keep quiet and keep on trucking, which is how I have stayed in this mess for so long.

It takes strength to not be emotionally injured in these relationships. There are skills to create a more validating environment, and skills to improve our boundaries, however these skills are not intuitive and must be learned.

A lot of pwBPD fail to find themselves lovable, therefore receiving love cannot happen despite the chronic need and desire for it. Because they cannot trust your love, you become the bad guy. Any minute you could abandon them, and probably will, and they are constantly scanning the environment for proof.

On our side, we often take their behaviors at face value (believing what they say about us). For many of us, the put-downs are familiar from childhood and there is a twisted safety in finding more proof that we do not deserve better.

Believing that you deserve to be treated with respect is critical. Enacting this belief is likely to change the status quo and trigger escalations because if you feel better you might leave (to someone who believes this is true anyway, it becomes even more true, and fear intensifies).

Your diet is your business. It is your body, your relationship, your journey.

What do you say when he makes comments about snacking? 

You don't have children now.  Before you, he or the counseling raise the topic of having children, be aware that having children does NOT fix the significant mental health issues you face.  Rather, having children makes future decisions either more difficult, more limited or more complicated.  For example, if the marriage eventually fails, what would be essentially a matter of financial and ownership matters (house, accounts, debts, etc) would be immensely compounded by custody and parenting matters.

I've "been there, done that".  I was married for over a decade and as my spouse got more dejected I thought if we had a child then she would be happy seeing a wee one discover life.  Didn't work out that way.  She drew away from me, I was relentlessly told I was a bad dad, and the marriage failed even sooner.  And the divorce was all about custody and parenting.

So for now, until you know where your marriage is heading, whether it can survive, better to delay thoughts of children... KISS (keep it simple, silly).

I see two changes about that time that made your relationship more "obligated".  (1) You married and (2) you bought a house.  Both would take determined effort to undo, hence the "obligated" aspect increased.  Your spouse may be unconsciously "letting his hair down" and letting you see his private persona since it is now more difficult to the relationship?

BPD F.O.G. = Fear, Obligation, Guilt

Sorry for delay in replies. I only have chance to do this really on my lunch break. But thanks all for taking the time - its a massive breath of fresh air to just find people who understand straight away.

So much this. Those times I do manage to scrape together energy for a film or something it's been amazing, his face lights up, we have a great time. But those times can be far between, and if I turn it down it feels like I kicked a puppy he is so hurt and withdraws.

I'm exceedingly lucky that I don't take it to heart. My relationship with food and my waistline is a huge issue for me and has been for years, but I know what my issues are and I know how hard I work to try and keep it in check, and how impossible its been over the stress levels of the last year or so. My internal reaction to his comments is either anger because I know he's just trying to say something hurtful, or disbelief that he could actually believe he has no effect on it. I usually just don't respond at all though; "if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all" kind of route.

Children are not in the foreseeable, for better or worse. We've discussed it in the past and agreed things like an age limit that I'm comfortable to have them, and the requirement for health and mental health to be stable before we try. It comes up in arguments that "I'm not trying to meet our agreements". I'm also really aware that if this marriage does fall apart I've basically kissed my chance at a biological family goodbye for various reasons. It will be a grief beyond just losing a husband if it comes to it... no I'm not going to think about that at work. Bit too much for a lunch hour!

It could be. I could see it being stress related, in struggling himself to handle the level of commitment, but it could be that kind of 'getting comfortable' too. Right now he's upped his game since he's realised there's a risk I could walk away from the relationship. If only he could keep this up without a perceived threat hanging over him...

Hi Stuck,
I’m sorry that you are experiencing these issues with your BPD husband.
I’m here to offer support and to echo what others have said.
A few points that caught my attention
1) the stonewalling and the forced caretaker role:
looks like you are always in doubt that he will step to dealing with responsibilities around the home and this is quite apparent in the anxiety you experience at home. I experienced exactly the same with my ex husband. He literally checked out whenever we had to deal with life. He will refuse to have conversations and in the early stages of our relationship he use to burst out crying whenever we had an argument about his behaviour. I told him outright that he was manipulating me with his tears and over time this stopped. Over the years he started stonewalling instead of communicating with me.
2) Your anxiety about having biological children:
I work in healthcare and I have seen single women have babies using the sperm bank. Please take hid that your relationship will get worse as soon as you fall pregnant. This is an eternal trap and you will be stuck with him for a long time, while the abuse will intensify. Mine got worse after we got married and bought a house and the drama around the first pregnancy and my labour was such that I had emergency C-section due to the stress he put me through. He was abusive while I was in labour and I think he split me black , he spent my 48 hour labour telling my mum how bad I was to him instead of being supportive. My mum too was a bully during my labour. 9 years on I’m still not able to wrap my head around it.
Caution: be careful with your contraception and I will advise you not to share details of how you are maintaining your contraception. Mine used sensitive information about my vulnerability to ensure I fell pregnant with the second child even though I made it clear I was not ready for a second child as we were not coping with the first child.

3) less than 2 years ago I was in a similar situation with indecision about filing for divorce, he had already split me black and the relationship was unbearable. He was becoming financially irresponsible and putting the family in a constant state of survival mode while blaming me for trying to have a career. I was stuck because we have 2 children and I am on an intense course and could not imagine surviving on my own. I experienced DV after I challenged his constant victim hood and refused to continue taking the blame for all our problems. At that point I had to file for divorce as there was no moving past the DV.
The question you will have to ask yourself is: are you prepared to live in this state of anxiety and possible depression for the long term as opposed to going through the temporary hurdles of filing for divorce and gaining your peace and self back .
May I just add that pw bpd will do anything to prevent abandonment eg him stepping up his game at home , but it won’t last. Soon as you get comfortable with him being useful around the house he will revert to old ways. Mine always cleaned the house and towards the end of our marriage he apologised for all the wrong things he had done, once the look on my face softened towards him,it didn’t take long for the rage to return. Positive changes are short lived.
For me, I had reached a point where I could not share anything with him anymore and I was literally a single mother while still married to him, except I was dragging his dead weight along.
I left and waiting for financial settlement to finalise my divorce. I’m more at peace and these days I am able to process life with more clarity.
Please take care and at the end of the day you alone know what is right for you.

Hi Stuck2023,

I feel for you and very much relate to your situation. This feeling of "having become a carer, not a spouse," is so heavy and burdensome.

I am currently in marriage counseling with my spouse. It is an unusual situation, because about a month into it, we agreed to separate romantically, and to head toward divorce—but we're still in counseling together, months later, because we have to keep living together for a while, and honestly I need those sessions to be able to speak to my spouse safely.

I think it never hurts to give marriage/couple counseling a try, even if it's a session or two—it's bound to teach you something, even if all you learn is "my husband can't do marriage counseling." My spouse also felt that I was dragging them to marriage counseling at first, but they warmed up to it and now seem to look forward to it.

Sounds like you are doing the very best that you can, with a lot on your plate. Are you in therapy yourself, or have you considered it? If you're not, I realize that may not sound manageable with everything you are already juggling, but I will say for me it was what I needed to gain clarity on my marriage.

Wishing you luck! Keep us all posted if you'd like to.

Been a while since I've had the space to come back to the forum. Its been much needed. You are all awesome people.

Thank you for the concern and advice. I'm super organized and aware of my medication as I take other things daily too. We also aren't really intimate any more - certainly not since I raised marriage counselling. I want a family dearly, but not enough to condemn myself for it, or any child to be raised in an unhappy house. Husband is very much a emotional manipulator but thankfully not a forceful or violent person.

That is amazing to hear, good luck and I hope it finalizes soon for you!


Are you comfortable to share how you've found marriage counselling? A rough outline of how it went? My husband is of the opinion "he'll go if I think we need to" and not really sold on the idea himself at the moment. Our first session is later this week. I really connect with your saying you need the sessions to speak to your spouse safely. I don't feel unsafe physically with my husband but I have zero faith anything we speak about on our own will go calmly or lead to a adult balanced outcome.

I actually spoke to a therapist solo before raising marriage counselling to help figure out what I wanted to do. I never came up with a definitive, but it did highlight how unhappy I was, and that we both need to engage if we have any chance to salvage it - if its possible. I'll have to put mine on hold so we can afford the marriage counselling but I've got a reasonable support network so I should be able to get by for a while at least. I'm aware of a couple of free services I could seek out if I needed too.

Had an... eye opening?... experience this weekend.

After a bit of a breakdown and crying session at home, I went to a local music festival on my own. I bumped into some people I only know as acquaintances but was basically adopted into their group for a couple of hours and had an amazing time.

Husband turned up a while later to meet me and see some of the festival too. My mood immediately dropped but I was like it's cool, we can just bop to some music and have too much festival food. Except he didn't really like it. My mood was already shot. So we left. I didn't even say goodbye to the other group as I didn't want to risk them noticing my mood shift and asking questions.

I'm sure its not how a marriage is supposed to be when I'm more relaxed and having more fun with near strangers than my husband.

Very insightful post, thank you for this.

Scanning the environment for proof that you might leave them or reject them, or aren't good enough. I even said that to my ex "you seem to be looking for things to be angry at, you have stories about me that aren't true, then you get mad at the stories". I found it so confusing coming from someone that said they loved me.

And then the believing what they call us or say about us. For me this was really tricky. I would think to myself, she says she loves me and she also gets really mad at me for things I don't think I did, or intentions I didn't have, or little small things about my life that I didn't think were bad or even slightly faulty. But she loves me, right? That's why she cares so much. And has my best interests at heart, so therefore I must be blind to these things. No one in my life has ever said these things, but maybe they didn't see them? Everybody knows I'm a kind person and thoughtful, but she sees the opposite...maybe she knows me better?

Regarding the food, mine did the very same things. Constantly criticizing what I ate, mocking it, telling me I'm not prioritizing our relationship if I ate certain things. I was not eating bad food! I was eating a very normal diet, even edging toward healthy. But she was hyper fixated on food. I'm in exceptional physical shape, and very knowledgeable about movement and health etc, but she told me I was unhealthy and a fraud in my fitness business because I didn't eat the foods she thought I should.

It's all about control, and it's hard to not take in what they say about us.

I should have told her that she has no right to mock my food and cooking (and many, many other things).

  Sounds more like he is suffering from depression than BPD. Did something happened in his life , like a trauma or shock before all this happened? In the time he tries to "prove a point to use it later", why dont you use those moments in a loving way, to give him an encouragement about being useful? When he does things, is bc you are pushing him to do them or you criticize him about not doing them? There are 2 sides to every relationship, and you are presenting yours. What would he have to say about the situation? If you are willing to go to a therapist, then be willing to use whatever small opportunities or points you can use to encourage positive interactions. His reaction will be very different, if he does things bc he feels belittled and have to prove a point, as if he does them because he realizes it brings him a benefit regarding positive reactions. You should try to find out what is that is eating him inside that provokes the depression.

First I'm going to say up front this is probably going to come across quite defensive in my reply. I take whatever time I can find alone to check these boards, and right now I'm tired and on edge for other reasons but I'm re-reading my preview and I'm pretty sure it's coming through  but I can't think of better wording right now. So apologies for that.

...

There could well be a good chunk of depression in there. I'm not aware of a major shock or trauma, although a slow build of responsibility and stress was there. Its hard to explain without a full play-by-play of the last few years, but it seems more volatile than just depressed. Everything is more intense; his emotions are all intense for example, often beyond what I would expect for a situation. I guess its entirely possible he has depression, anxiety, and massive self esteem issues rather than BPD, he's not diagnosed which I was open about. It reads to me closer to BPD though and he's moved well past the standard CBT and counselling for depression and into deeper therapy levels though with limited success.

I do try to thank and praise him when he does things. And for example in the post-upset phase I wasn't nagging him to do major DIY or anything; he's doing it himself unprompted. He will say he feels good, achieving stuff, but it doesn't last. Yeah sometimes I push him to do things, I'm working full time and he's not so I expect some chores or errands to be done that he has time for that I just don't. I'm absolutely guilty of not always giving praise for some gardening or other job done above and beyond when my head is caught up in other stuff. I'm not a saint. I'm also not a therapist but I've been fighting with the healthcare system for years on his behalf to try and get someone or somewhere that he can try and find the root of the issues. I'm just human and burnt out.

Hey Stuck2023, good to hear your updates -- I'm glad you decided to get out of the house for yourself for bit, and that you felt so welcomed and accepted at the music festival. Even though the person in my life with BPD isn't a partner (it's my H's kids' mom), the stress/anxiety impact on me is huge. I got to take a trip out of state to see an old friend a few months ago, and even though we basically never talked about anything deep (she's not that kind of person), it was still an amazing break to get away from the drama and conflict and not talk about it and focus on "normal things".

Any more chances coming up for you to get a break, even for an hour or two, from the stress?

I think you mentioned a few posts back that you had a MC session coming up -- has that happened yet, and if so, how did it go?

Stuck2023, you belong here.

Most of us here don't have partners or family members diagnosed with BPD. Many of us try to make sense of behaviors that make these relationships not just difficult but the most difficult, and that road often leads to BPD or something in that neighborhood, alone or with another diagnosis.

BPD is an adaptation that worked in childhood and no longer serves its purpose. It may happen with or without what many consider trauma in the classic sense. BPD traits might overlap with other disorders but that doesn't make things any less intense for us as caregivers.

You probably know on some intuitive level that his reactions are beyond what's manageable, and your caregiving symptoms suggest he is nowhere near to getting the right intervention, diagnosis, treatment.

There are examples of many people who suffer from major depressive disorder and BPD. It's possible your H has more than one thing going on, and maybe even more than two. Whatever it is, your caregiving challenges sound familiar and they are not insignificant.

With my ex, I look back and realize he was bound and determined to make sure every waking moment was spent focused on him. This wasn't fair to my son, and it wasn't fair to me. I'm glad you went out with friends and took care of yourself. The more you do things to make sure you're ok, the better. We can't take care of other people, no matter how much they are falling apart, if our cup isn't at least half full or better.

Since I finally got my workload (like job etc) under control I've started building in some me-time regularly! I have a fitness class I go to once a week at least, and a game night we both go to but he's not in the same game so its another couple of hours separate. Its actually what's really highlighted for me how bad its been, not wanting to go home afterwards. I'm glad you got away for a while and had a break too. A few days break sounds like bliss  :)

You're right, we had our first MC session last week. Overall it was tense and draining, but not too bad - mostly because it was 90% paperwork, but we eventually got a bit into "why are you here". That part was... less fun. I think he expected me to come out swinging at him, blaming him, I guess like a TV show version of couples counselling - so he decided to swing first with a few snide and mean comments. Honestly I just kept quiet and took it, it was like 10minutes left of the session and I didn't want to kick off right as we left. I'm pretty sure the counsellor noticed. He has a habit of retelling things accurately in terms of literally what happened, but spinning it with intentions and tone that weren't there. Walking over to continue a discussion because he's yelling at the top of his voice from the next room, becoming "she chased me into the room" for example. I'm trying to prepare for that a bit more for next session. It hurts to hear. I'm pretty sure its just lashing out; but I don't want to be with someone who thinks I would do that to them, and if he doesn't believe it then why should I stay with someone willing to lie and say that about me?

Thank you. That means so much to hear.

MC session 2 happened. I've just felt really drained and tired and checked out since.

It went well I think? The counsellor noted some of his reactions and questioned me about how I respond to things. They seem to be pretty observant so far. Our homework is to practice putting conversations on pause if we're getting worked up (we can do this but not consistently), with plans to do practice other ways of communicating later to better get each other's view across. I should really consider it a good session I think, but I actually feel worse and I can't really define why.

He was remarkably (not overly, but more than I would expect) cheery afterwards despite everything and its put me right on edge; everything I know of him he should have been wanting to either lash out or cry after the topics discussed and he wasn't. My head says he's either holding it in to prove a point or set a specific image... or he thinks he's "winning" somehow which I think worries me more.

Today we had a conversation about something that had bugged me in session. It didn't get resolved but it didn't explode, or at least nearly didn't. I reacted sharply to something and the reply triggered him but we did manage to bail before the explosion but it was down to the wire. And I've learned we have some different opinions on whether managing the household bills and budget (yes like a physical document) counts as household chores/responsibilities. My head is just swirling and nothing feels like its making sense right now. I feel like I should be happy we're engaging in counselling but I am just feeling sick and scared.

Dear Stuck2023,

I’ve been gone for a bit, so I’ll try to catch up!

Marriage counseling has been a godsend for me, but I lucked out in that we ended up with a particularly bright and well-attuned therapist. I will say the first few sessions were really tough, and after the fourth session my spouse completely lost it and went into a borderline rage fit for multiple days (left the therapist a nasty voicemail, and left me multiple voicemails that were just them screaming and yelling—I had left the house for my own safety). That being said, that episode is what finally made me realize I did not want a future with my spouse, and the therapist also really switched gears after that. They likely understood they were dealing with a personality-disordered client, and applied a lot of the same strategies we’re all learning to apply here as loved ones (like no JADEing, SET, etc.). We have been at it for 6 months now, and it’s in that therapy space that I was able to tell my spouse I want to separate without it leading to blackout rage (yet?).

I hope for your sake this process of going to marriage counseling with your husband doesn’t lead to more rage/despondency/abuse. Every marriage counseling journey is different, so who knows what yours will lead to. I am so glad your counselor seems observant and gave you something to work on right away. My wish for you is that, if anything, this process can give you some clarity as to whether you want to stay in this marriage or not.

I can completely relate to feeling emotionally drained and checked out after therapy. Therapy is already such hard work in general, because you’re confronting painful and often buried feelings—but then doing it with someone who is as volatile, unpredictable, and prone to rage as a pwBPD is? That is massive, superhuman work. Give yourself kudos for that. My spouse has also sometimes been strangely “chipper” after therapy, which has only made me more scared. Sometimes, I think it’s truly how they feel—after all, therapy might be providing things his BPD craves (like attention and validation). Other times, I worry the reason might be more sinister.

And keep in mind, it’s okay if marriage counseling just doesn’t work out. Especially with untreated BPD, there is really only so much a collaborative process like marriage counseling can do, unfortunately. After some time, it may be that that money will be better spent on individual therapy for yourself. Again, who knows.

I’m also glad you have a good support system around you, and you’ve gotten some opportunities to spend time away from your husband (either for me-time, or to socialize with others). I am always surprised by how different I feel when I am not with my spouse—just so much lighter, and more present. It is painful, even a little heartbreaking, to go back to my spouse after that.

Lastly, I want to reiterate what livednlearned wrote: you belong here. You know your husband better than any of us here ever will (probably better than most people in your/his life), and it’s okay to trust yourself. There is a reason that descriptions of BPD behaviors/patterns sound familiar to you, and that you ended up here. It’s hard, when you live with a gaslighter, not to second guess your intuition. And yes, it’s very possible your husband also has depression. Really high rates of comorbidity between BPD and things like depression, anxiety, PTSD. Personally, I have yet to meet someone who has BPD but not depression.

You are in the right place. You can trust yourself.

Much has been discussed about couples or marriage counseling.  If the disordered spouse is unwilling to do meaningful personal therapy - and diligently apply it - then often the attempts at marriage counseling also fail.

I recall my lawyer telling me, "Court loves counseling!"  All the professionals do.  Even if your spouse declines meaningful therapy or counseling together with your spouse fails, individual therapy is still very beneficial for you.

@livethequestions
Its good to hear it's helping. I'm still very conflicted on what I want right now. We're nearing a month since I raised the topic of being unhappy and since then he's been remarkably productive and functional. A few emotional outbursts but nothing like the usual amount. Although we're also in a calm point in life too right now with few stresses (although expecting those to start returning in September). If it could stay at this point and with work go upwards, I'd be happy. But I'm very worried it won't stay at this level.

I hadn't thought about it giving him attention and validation therefore might actually raise his mood! That makes more sense as I was wracking my brain trying to figure out what else could be going on. Thank you, I can breath a bit easier now with at least some kind of possibility!

This is the whole reason I realized something was wrong honestly. I shouldn't dread going home wondering what mood he's in, or wondering if my nice evening out with him was actually going to get me an earful when we get in the car because someone said something or I did something and didn't realize. I'm both glad to hear someone put words to it, and sad that you experience it too.

@ForeverDad
I am keeping my fingers crossed, mostly on the "diligently apply it" part. He's been notorious in individual therapy for taking on the theory really well, but not doing the daily practical practice as it were. Trying it once and it didn't work miracles, or feeling good so didn't feel the need to do it. I'm at least involved to keep it in mind this time I suppose! I'm still keeping up with my individual therapy too although not as often to save some money.

 You said that you are going to your own therapy by yourself. What conclusions your therapists have reached regarding diagnosis? Have you been evaluated yourself for BPD or similar? Some of the things you mentioned (like negativity regarding the future bc you see  him getting happy and motivated), sound like BPD behavioral patterns. In men, normally, when we get to find a possible answer to a problem that is seriously affecting us, we get happy, motivated, we go on an hit the gym, do the chores we were not doing, bc we have HOPE, and see things changing positively. That is a NORMAL behavior in men.

  But when you say you feel "fear" of he doing better, and fear that is going to turn worst, when this is actually what therapy is for, then you are displaying symptoms of BPD. Fear, negative thinking about the future, not being happy no matter what is done to fix things, projections of failure instead of seeing the actual actions happening, etc. All those ARE BPD mentality symptoms. So, it is completely possible for 2 people to have BPD and be together. But all you described about his attitude changing positive when hope and a way is given is normal.

 Are you open to the possibility that you might also have BPD or related? And to want to do something about it?

We're all remote and only have limited contact here, so our observations and conclusions are of course limited.  But here are a couple observations I've made over the years.

Now and then there have been persons who arrived here but were probably Borderline.  As we always say, we only see the behaviors, as for what lies beneath the surface, who knows?  Anyway, it was fairly obvious within a few posts that these persons had real issues with their perceptions and perspectives.  Even their posts were often a bit disjointed.  They were easily triggered too so it didn't take long to suggest they instead follow links to sites designed for people with BPD (pwBPD), whereas this site is for those in relationships with or exposed to pwBPD... spouses, children, parents, bosses, etc.

Also, those pwBPD didn't have much introspection, self-examination.  So often when a person arrives here and asks, "Does it sound like I am the one with BPD?" we sense the person is probably reasonably normal, just in a bad situation.  In such cases the phrase "situational relationship issues" applies more to them rather than "one's own internal issues".

That said, Stuck2023 has all the signs of someone stuck in a troubling situation.  That isn't to say she is perfect, maybe better to say comparatively or perfectly normal.  None of us are 100% perfect, we're not identical robots off an assembly line.  We all have variations of traits and issues, just usually relatively minor (relatively normal) ones.  Add to that the fact that we were clueless, uninformed and unprepared for dealing with an acting-out pwBPD, so therefore sites like this one along with in-person counseling are life savers.

My personal therapy hasn't been aimed towards any diagnosis at least this instance. It's been around giving me an independent place to discuss my marriage issues without risking creating bias with our shared friends and family. That's not to say I haven't got my own issues for sure. I've got diagnosed anxiety which is clinically under control though rears its head in times of stress, and its been noted on more than one occasion that my non-anxiety related emotions are generally somewhat over-controlled (which is I believe specifically not a BPD trait).
I really wish I could see that happiness mood swing as a reaction to hope and way forward, but given that just a minute earlier inside the counselling session he had been very down and defensive, I can't see a "normal" reason for the shift.

Thank you. Indeed this site has been amazingly helpful so far. The tools section, reading other people's stories, seeing advice and tips. I'm also becoming very aware how lucky I am in that my story is essentially 'just' mental and emotional burnout, and not the levels of abuse and violence others have endured in some cases. Although, it kind of makes the situation sadder in a way too if my marriage ends up coming down purely to whether I have the energy to keep up the level of support he appears to need. He's not a bad person, I know that for certain. I also know I can't be everything he needs, on my own, indefinitely; which is where it currently stands.

Another MC session down. Stuff is coming out, I feel like the counsellor is seeing some of the interactions well and picking up on things. There have been no major breakdowns post-sessions. Yet I'm feeling more upset and down after every session. I'm getting to say a lot about how awful some things feel which I wouldn't have done before, his defensive response is being nicely handled by the counsellor. But there is no... what's the term? Validation? Acknowledgement?... of how I feel, from him. Afterwards he still says he doesn't think we need MC and its making things worse for no reason.

I just typed out a whole paragraph of venting, then stopped on this sentence: "Ignorance of their own actions isn't a reason to stay with someone". I need to think on that more when I'm less tired.

I wouldn't rule out autism.

I've been in a rabbit hole about autism and BPD after learning more about this as a comorbidity, although it's also possible that there is autism plus other kinds of post-trauma presentations.

My son's psychiatrist implied he though n/BPDx (son's father) was on the spectrum. It made no sense to me because n/BPDx has so many characteristics of someone with BPD (with me) with a strong streak of narcissism (with others). He also masked what I now realize was extreme anxiety with alcohol and prescription medications. I know we're not supposed to diagnose but my god when you live with someone so destructive and abusive it feels almost impossible to try and make sense, if only to find others experiencing the same insanity.

To be clear, I'm not saying autism is destructive. My son is also on the spectrum and he couldn't be further from what his father is like. S22 doesn't have a PD and he doesn't abuse alcohol or drugs. He's lovely and sweet and very tender-hearted and kind.

Someone on the spectrum is wired different and even ASD alone without comorbidities can be challenging for partners, sometimes referred to as Cassandra phenomenon.


It's hard to tell much from reading a handful of posts to know what applies but if there's something that resonates maybe it'll spare you years of feeling like things just don't ever add up, wondering if there's something wrong with you since people seem to not understand what you're describing.

I actually have thought about this before strangely; a complete stranger was asking how I was after witnessing a meltdown of uBPDh and mentioned he reminded her of her Asperger's (which isn't considered a separate thing to autism anymore I believe) son. Your message prompted me to look at the overlap with BPD though and wow that's a surprising level of overlap! The one bit that made me laugh in a slightly despairing way was that I realized I would say he has something close to autism Special Interests and can talk none stop for hours on a subject he likes but then gets BPD like dysregulated if I don't show enough interest in the subject too as it hits the "you're rejecting me" buttons.

As you say, no diagnosing here. But it absolutely does help in finding words to try and describe what I'm seeing/experiencing.

One lesson I discovered when I went to family court was that no effort is made to determine WHY there is discord or conflict.  Sure, most cases have mediation attempts ordered early in a divorce, but otherwise it seemed to me everyone studiously avoided any attempt to diagnose or "fix" anyone.  Court and the professionals around the court dealt with the parties as they are.  That was a surprise for me and a realization worth accepting if you do ever decide the marriage has no future.

In some ways that sucks but better to be aware now than be disappointed later.

I've come across an article that seems appropriate for this thread that discusses the similarities and differences between BPD & Autism:

BPD vs Autism:  How to Spot the Difference

https://neurodivergentinsights.com/misdiagnosis-monday/boderline-personality-disorder-or-autism

There is also something called rejection sensitivity dysphoria or something equivalent. And it's not out of the question that people can have both BPD and ASD, especially given the amount of rejection and bullying someone on the spectrum can be exposed to. I'm always amazed when people say there is less empathy among people on the spectrum because it seems to me that it's people NOT on the spectrum who do more bullying.

Welcome, Stuck2023,

A number of times you mention that you feel something but cannot put your finger on why you feel this way: what you are feeling doesn't completely make sense to you.

What I have learned is this is exactly when I should listen to myself most: when I feel something that doesn't make sense.

Your gut is telling you something important. Instead of trying to figure it out in your head, just acknowledge that for whatever reason this is how you feel. At least for us nons, emotion is wisdom. Eventually you will likely discover why you felt that way, but in the moment, you do not need a reason or rationale to say, Hm, that made me feel bad or lonely or uncomfortable or whatever.

*

I once read that while individual therapy can feel like a nice warm bath, couples counseling is like being dropped into ice water. BPD aside, I imagine most people in most marriages find couples counseling at least sometimes uncomfortable and unsettling. I suspect that many marriage counselors presented with a BPD-non couple will know they have to provide validation to both (and validation to one person can be somewhat invalidating to the other person) but more validation to the person with BPD. Also, the fact that your partner seems to think he's "winning" at couples counseling sounds like a very BPD-like response, making marriage and counseling both into something adversarial.

Many states identify destruction of your property or marital property as Domestic Violence (DV) or criminal mischief, etc.  Check your local options.  Whether the police and courts will do something notable to address it is a valid question, but if you don't report it then you'll never learn to what extent they will protect you.

I myself failed to report the times my then-spouse destroyed keyboards, cut the wires on mice and even once threw into the garage and bent up our son's computer.  I would buy keyboards and mice in bulk, well at least a few at a time.

I didn't view it as substantial enough of a reason to call police and report it.  Not even when she accidentally cut my face (while in a rage).  My bad because her rants and rages kept getting worse over time and eventually I did call the police and I got a temp protection order while her Threat of DV case was pending.  That started the separation that led to our divorce.

Thank you. You're probably very right. I'm going to try and remember this.

Bless our counsellor, she seems really observant so far. She is making a point of validating me every so often, but yes definitely more on the him side. Interestingly I actually countered him last session in a manner that he didn't seem to know how to handle. He was very emotional and relating how he feels XYZ about me doing certain things but doesn't tell me and complain and I said "Yes you do tell me, every time we disagree and have an argument you tell me. That's how I know about it to bring it up.". For a split second you could have heard a pin drop in that room. He was not in a good mood leaving that particular session. I don't want marriage counselling to be adversarial like this but I'm not standing for blatant PR spin on his part.

That sounds so rough Sara. As ForeverDad said, please consider the laws of your area and your safety.

I do wonder about how a BPD person relates to hard boundaries. How they differentiate a hard boundary from a soft one. Like once my husband locked me out of the house while I was at my moms after a fight. Left the key in the door so I had to ring the doorbell to get let in. He said he wanted to be sure he heard when I got back as he had abandonment issues. I absolutely lost it with him - told him if I ever get intentionally locked out of my own house again the next time he'd see me was with a locksmith and a moving van. He's never done it again since. Softer boundaries though are treated totally different; things that make me upset for example he'll do over them over and over (relatively, over days) until he realizes he's reaching my breaking point, then back down for a while to 'reset my counter' as it were.

Boundaries, soft or hard, are a huge struggle for me. If I tell his calm & sober side something that bothers me or something I love, his drunk rage side will attack that first. I can't expose any weaknesses. I'm hoping once I start counseling I'll find the best way to approach this.  Your counseling posts are very helpful. Thanks again for your honesty and support.

I'm really glad it helps. I often feel a bit bad taking so much useful advice and reassurance from the group and not having much to give back at this point! I know though that I'm lucky and my husband isn't violent or raging almost at all. I think I saw it once and he hurt his hand punching a solid wood dresser and that was about it. The rage wasn't even directed at me at the time, just injustice of the world after a death in the family.

I understand how you say admitting that something bothers you makes him go for it first. Its the same here usually. I used to be able to brush it off as just a self defense mechanism but the longer it goes on the more I'm realizing how much it grates over time. This wearing down of my patience and understanding. As you say, you get to the point of not saying anything about what you want or don't want.

One of the reasons "hard" boundaries work is because we are in "parent" mode.

It's challenging in a relationship where we're supposed to be peers, to be partners. But emotionally, that is often not the case. Sometimes "parent" mode is what gets through, especially if they are in child mode (like tantrums).

My ex knew to never hit me. I was hit as a child and I made it clear that will never happen again in my life. However, ex found other ways to be abusive. He threw our dog. He locked me out of the house. He punched walls. He slammed doors in my face. He threw things. He hid my purse and phone. This is sometimes called environmental violence.

If you want them to observe a boundary, you have to uphold that boundary like you built it out of titanium. It will be you training them that this boundary is for real. There will be testing and pushback and other nonsense so strong boundaries don't erase that, at least in the beginning.

Being yelled at and wanting to stop it, there are boundaries that you can control. For example, you hold your hand up and say stop until it stops. Or you let them know in advance what you do when someone yells at you: Walk into the other room, leave the house, put on headphones, whatever you feel is in the realm of possible for you.

Every boundary must be carefully studied and constructed so that you always have a way to assert it, since you are the one controlling it. They can do the behavior all they want but you will do ____________ in response. Then you stick to it like it's the most important thing in the world to you. Even you cannot negotiate the boundary, otherwise they will think the boundary must be negotiable.

For me, I found it was much easier to assert non-verbal boundaries since that minimized the target and made them less likely to be disputed or tested.

None of this is easy.

Dropping in only to say, Stuck2023 and Sara Walters, thank you for your posts, as well. It's a complex feeling to be both sad AND relieved that other people are going through the same pain you are!

Thank goodness for good therapists; and hats off, especially, to marriage counselors who can handle a BPD/non-BPD dynamic, without losing the trust of either partner.

Last session went out with a bang. uBPDh walked out upset right at the end. I finally decided to show how hurt I was at something he’d said and let myself get a little upset, and boom suddenly he’s super hurt and crying and saying “I knew that would upset you but I had to be honest”…. Counsellor is suggesting she maybe have an individual session with each of us next. I wish I could mind read and know what she thought of it all.

We had an evening of barely talking and I got upset-drunk for the first time in a long while. Not insensible just mildly unsteady on my feet. He practically tried to order me to bed like a child when I was just sat on my phone scrolling Facebook. And now we’re back to super helpful mode again where dishes were done and he’s cooked up the meal I planned to make us for the next few days already. But still explicitly not in a place to talk beyond the polite chit chat.

I know MC is hard and is supposed to take time. Does anyone have good experiences of it? Some sign to look for to see if it’s doing anything useful at all?

I’ve seen MC work many times..also seen it fail.  When they work, it’s typically between two nonBPD’s.  I’ve been through therapy with 2 BPD partners, and while it can help one navigate a typically toxic situation in a better manner…it was still toxic in my cases,  I felt stuck…that’s what I deserved.  Until I began my own therapy alone.  I learned to love me again, to know I deserved better.  My journey was long in helping me understand why I would even be attracted/drawn to pwBPD.  Sifting through my own crap (https://bpdfamily.com/safe-site.htm) (family dynamics/dysfunction.  Lots of crying (pain coming out) lots of omg I can’t believe I couldn’t see that lightbulb moments…lots of sitting in my own feelings to understand them and see where they came from.  Therapy has helped better my life.  Therapy only helps those that want to help themselves from my experiences.  For those struggling in this thread…it does get better,.  The decision for a better life is our own to make.  There’s plenty of support here, as well as your own Therapist and you friend/family sphere.  Sharing is therapeutic…keep sharing here. Sorry for the rambling…been a minute since I’ve been around

Thank you Drained. It’s nice to hear other people’s experience. I don’t actually know anyone who’s done it or even seen it to be honest!

I dropped my individual therapy back to once a month to help balance costs but I had it the other day. He pointed out that it sounded like I’ve already reached a decision on the marriage, and I think he’s right…I’m just not sure I’m ready to pull that trigger yet…

Right now we’re stable. Not necessarily happy but not falling off a metaphorical cliff, coping. I don’t want that forever but I can deal for a good while. Theres no abuse or safety issues. I don’t think it’s catastrophizing to say that my life will blow up if I break things off - emotionally and logistically it will be a mess for a good while. He would have good odds of leaving his training course he’s on too which is great for his career and I don’t want to screw up his career.
The other part of me thinks that if I don’t though, he’ll think we’re back to being fine and it will be a harder pill to swallow later down the line.

It’s like looking down into a swirling black ocean and knowing I have to jump at some point but I really really don’t want to and not being able to see when would be the best timing to have the least roughest ride. Half hoping someone will push me so I don’t have to make the decision to jump myself…

If the marriage is failing and you aren't ready to go just yet, could you use this in-between time to practice what life will look like when you leave?

Like you mentioned in an earlier post, could you go out more often and do things on your own? Do things you've always wanted to try.

It is challenging to leave a partner with BPD traits and it can be sort of all-consuming as you work through your own emotions plus the junk that comes with the legal parts.

When things quiet down, which can take a while, you'll be with yourself.

After I left and things kind of settled down, I felt relief, but other stuff too.

Figuring out who you are when you aren't in conflict or aren't taking care of someone can be a process. You can get started anytime  :hug:

That sounds like an amazing idea  :love-it:  and also hearing it described as “not ready to go just yet” is so much nicer than what my brain was saying to myself, thank you!

It will be a massive change once it’s all over. All the future plans that were there just disappear and it’ll be sad but a lot of freedom again too I guess. Friends might be weird too, we share a lot of them and I can see that being awkward for a while. I should probably figure out how to make new ones now as I don’t think the drinking buddies route will work so well now I’m out of my 20s!

I’ll speak for myself, the realization I needed to end the relationships hit me well before my ABILITY to end them.  My ability was significantly hindered by my own lack of self worth, as well as the fact I actually loved my BPD partners.  I learned I loved them for who I thought/wanted/wished them to be, which they could show at times…mirroring…such a genuinely seductive  trait and defensive mechanism commonly shared by those with BPD traits.  Their trait to guilt though was the one that crippled me mostly.  Boundaries became my friend…and lended to my ability to inch back towards validating my own self worth with healthier life experiences.  As livednlearned suggests, do that as you can fit it in your life.  Ultimately YOU are responsible for your own happiness.  Be kind to yourself, this is VERY hard stuff to deal with, we all took steps backwards even when we were looking forward. This community will be here for you.

Where I am now in summary:

• I’ve narrowed down my major issues to 3 which I’ll attempt to address in marriage counselling but suspect it won’t go anywhere
• I’m very slowly attempting to expand my active go-and-do-things friendship group to include some non-shared friends
• I’ve decided I’m ok to stick it out until he at least finishes his training in about 10 months
• I’m not going to lie to him and say all is fine in that time, but I probably won’t kick off a break up unless he initiates it or pushes for a final decision

My brains a tornado of thoughts and emotions but I’m mentally filing things into some kind of order slowly. Discovered a hidden chunk of anger the other day that the husband is too nice a guy and therefore not making this easy for me to just go. Like if he would just go and have an affair or swing at me this would be a lot easier  lol  sorry, dark humor showing through!

I just want to scream right now. My head hurts, I feel nauseous, every muscle is tense and it nearly hurts to move. I've got a couple of hours to myself and I want to collapse but I'm supposed to be working from home.

Husband has been acting flirty and trying to rekindle feelings and closeness I just don't feel since absolutely nothing has been resolved of our issues. Its... awkward. And if I rebuff the advances I feel like I kicked a puppy or something for the upset and hurt looks. Stress kicked back in with his starting his training and I make one mistake the first morning and the whole first day is going to be awful and he's barely talking to me. Bills are going up and he's ready to cut all social life funds off to meet the shortfall rather than just take on like 1 day work a week and judging me for not being willing to do the same in cutting my lifelines.

Why? Why don't I just tell him its over already that I can't take any more? I've hardened myself enough to take all the rest of this   :cursing:  why can't I just take this last bit more?

Severing a relationship is…difficult…it’s a cataclysmic move in life…so don’t beat yourself up for feeling overwhelmed.  Intellect seems to arrive in the correct place…sometimes well before emotions.  Appears you have direction and a pretty clear understanding of where you would like to emerge.  It seems you’re caught in the FOG…fear, obligation, and guilt.
 Not sure if you’ve read about that here…and I’ve been absent a while, but I’m sure some simple searching here can explain the FOG.  Know you’re not alone…many here comprehend

Dear Stuck,

I’m relatively new here, and I’m just seeing your post. I feel your pain. 

Whenever I’m away from my uhwBPD, whether it’s with nearly strangers, friends, or even one of my doctors, it’s like drinking water after being stranded in a desert.  They become the air I breathe.  It’s a joy — and then I go home, to misery. My husband is almost impossible to live with.

It’s not easy.  The only thing I can recommend is more self care.  More time with friends. 

Hang in there. 

Hugs,
JazzSinger

I’ve been quiet here for a bit but I saw your post too and I felt like I could’ve written it myself! I wish I had advice I thought would help but you already seem to have it down from what I can tell :)

My uhwBPD has really upped his game the last month or so although we’ve had very rocky marriage counselling sessions. He goes to it for me, not because he thinks it helps. But I think it’s shown I meant it that I was unhappy and was nearly done.

I’ve been booking myself out to socials and fun events whenever I can and it’s been amazing on many levels. Fresh air, steps to becoming my new self, whatever that ends up being.

I recently posted that I was hopeful we might amicably separate but I now don’t think that will happen. We’re getting on better than in years (and pretty consistently too) and he’s putting in a lot of work on himself and us. I haven’t been able to find our spark again though (yet?). If I split now he’ll be heartbroken and rightfully angry. I’ve seen glimmers of the depths of panic that would spike in him, it’s scary - scared for him rather than of him though. And I should give it time I guess to see if the spark comes back and if he sticks with his efforts.

Stuck2023,

Your situation seems very similar to mine, except you’re making progress. Good for you!  My husband wouldn’t agree to counseling.  He thinks he’s fine and everything is fine. 

It’s great that you’re doing more for you! I’m in a similar place, and it feels wonderful. Sadly, for me, there’s still a lot more fun and laughter in my life when I’m not with him.   

I don’t know what the future holds for our marriage, but I’m going to keep focusing on ME. I know he’d be devastated and could even get violent if I decided to leave, even if just for a few days.   But I’m more scared for ME than I am for him.

Thankfully, right now, he’s in a better place, and the harsh criticisms and outbursts have stopped, after an extremely difficult six months.  So, I’m staying put.  I can live in peace for now.  But I don’t know how long this pleasant break will last. 

I’m glad you’re making progress and you feel things are looking up.

Best,
JazzSinger

Hi JazzSinger,

I'm sorry your marriage is not going so well. Until very very recently, and still sometimes, there is more fun and laughter and peace in my life when I'm away from him and with others. I've built my schedule now that there's only 1 evening a week I'm in the house now, then weekends are more fluid but also trying to keep 1 day of that for socializing with friends too. Its perked me up so much having more space and people to see and things to do.

I know you're not the only one scared of their pwBPD on here. I've always told mine that if I was ever scared OF him, I would be gone. He does believe that. I have a close family and friendship group that I know that if I had to run they would put me up, collect me, help me move things out, stand between me and him... and he knows that too. Hopefully this extra you-time will improve your safety net too in case the time its needed ever comes.

Enjoy your break while it lasts, and I keep fingers crossed it lasts a long time for you!

Stuck

This is a wonderful example of setting a strong 'boundary' for an intimate partner.  Most borderlines can be sane and reasonable, if they want to be.  In the work place, if they are out of line, they lose their job.  With casual friends, they will lose them and won't have any, as casual friends won't tolerate an a$$hole personality.  Likewise in intimate relationships, which often do not have these boundaries, they will let their emotions get the better of them.

The boundary in Stuck's case is that she will leave if things get bad.  Definitely improve your safety net, improving your circle of friendships is one way to do this, this also includes setting aside some cash, if need be, to go to a hotel, I have such cash (since 2009) set aside for just this reason - fortunately it has not gotten bad enough to use it, but there have been a few occasions that were 'close'.  I also have communicated this with my uBPDw, and things have gotten better.  However, do be aware if you have children (or grandchildren) under 18 in your care, your pwBPD's target of blame may shift to them, and one needs to ensure that they are protected too.  Their respective individual therapists and I've given both of my children tools to defend themselves when my wife becomes dysregulated, even if my D16 abuses these tools from time to time with typical teenage rebellion.

As always, make time for self-care, friendships and/or getting away is a version of self-care, you need to have enough energy to deal with the pwBPD's issues when you are in their presence as they can be emotionally draining.

Take care, with self-care.

Marriage counselling is still going, how much good it is doing I don’t know anymore. We have “communication issues” (no  :cursing: ) and that’s what we’re going to work on apparently. “How to talk about issues without it getting too emotional.”

We ended yesterday in a tense upset atmosphere because I took something he said badly and got defensive. I own it, and wanted to apologise but he was too upset to talk at the time so this morning I apologised and explained that it wasn’t anything he said - it was me because of something bothering me from work, and i shouldn’t have snapped at him. I expected this to ease things? Actively taking blame for something off him? But instead he started crying again because it hurt and saying he just wants to forget it. But he won’t forget it. It will come out as ammo the next time I’m not a saint and snap at him, as proof that I’m always mean.

I don’t understand how an apology went so badly.

Communication is the key.  Except when I am feeling unwell, I make a herculean effort not to trigger my wife while communicating with her.  It has gotten so bad, that if I use the word trigger, that can be triggering for her - it seems like I cannot talk to her about normal differences of issues and that can be quite frustrating for me.  I own my stuff, my wife is starting to own her stuff too, but I feel it isn't going far enough.

I hear how frustrating that he won't forget it and bring it up as ammo.

For now with my wife, I am focusing on her feelings, and why she is feeling that way, rather than the facts which often get distorted (but often have a kernel of truth) to the point of being a false narrative for my wife to match her feelings.  I am making some progress here, but the speed of progress is very slow.

I have also noticed that there are setbacks in our couple's therapy, even back to square one on a couple of occasions.  I am happy as long as there is a general upward trend of improvement, even though the progress looks very shaky at times.

I often reflect on what happened in the couple's therapy with my individual therapist - bounce ideas off her, and use her as a sounding board, to move forward in couple's therapy.

This is the process that I use and I do see incremental improvements with the relationship with my wife.

I also do self-care as this is a very frustrating process at times.  Be sure to take care with self-care.

It’s a late reply but I got there. Thank you SaltDawg, and it’s good to read about some progress in better directions for people. We’ve managed to have a couple of conversations about the apology that went wrong and I think it boiled down to him getting upset that I could think even briefly badly of him/ that he was condescending to me? My immediate thoughts are the hypocrisy of it as he does that to me all the time but bringing that up (not my smartest move I know) ratcheted  up the tension 100x. I’m going to try your tactic of focus on the feeling not the facts next time although that’s really difficult for me - I’m a very facts driven person by nature :S

It’s slow  but I’m learning more about how his mind seems to be working and triggers but dear lord it’s so :cursing: exhausting. We get along fine so long as I am never annoyed at him. Anything else but him. Which to be fair is maybe even most of the time but god I’m only human. It’s depressing looking at a future and trying to imaging resigning myself to regular meltdowns because I had a bad day or he just got on my nerves.


I feel like I’m seeing images now of a potential future together, with a lot of work and time. I’m just unsure if I want it… I never expected marriage to be easy but I never expected it to be a lifetime commitment to being an emotion manager. I wanted an equal to take on the world side by side with, supporting each other but not dependent. Maybe that’s naive. Maybe I should accept that that’s not what I have, and make what I have work as best I can and accept things. Then that feels like” settling”which feels a whole different level of bad and not fair on anyone. Urgh head is a mess. Individual therapy later this week will be fun I’m sure.

It’s a late reply but I got there. Thank you SaltDawg, and it’s good to read about some progress in better directions for people. We’ve managed to have a couple of conversations about the apology that went wrong and I think it boiled down to him getting upset that I could think even briefly badly of him/ that he was condescending to me? My immediate thoughts are the hypocrisy of it as he does that to me all the time but bringing that up (not my smartest move I know) ratcheted  up the tension 100x. I’m going to try your tactic of focus on the feeling not the facts next time although that’s really difficult for me - I’m a very facts driven person by nature :S

I too am a very facts driven person - so it is not intuitive to focus on their feelings.  However, that seems to smooth things over a lot more readily than if I make observations on how the facts do not match the feelings.


It’s slow  but I’m learning more about how his mind seems to be working and triggers but dear lord it’s so :cursing: exhausting. We get along fine so long as I am never annoyed at him. Anything else but him. Which to be fair is maybe even most of the time but god I’m only human. It’s depressing looking at a future and trying to imaging resigning myself to regular meltdowns because I had a bad day or he just got on my nerves.

It is so emotionally draining to do this.  I no longer get annoyed by my pwBPD, as I have come to accept those kinds of behaviors.  I am also setting boundaries on behaviors I do not like, nor should I accept.

When he isn't having a meltdown, and is as 'normal' as he can be, have a discussion about setting boundaries on how you refuse to have anyone yelling at you (or worse).  Tell him you will give that person 1-3 warnings, and then you will walk away until cooler heads can prevail.  Being on the receiving end of being shouted at is no fun, nor should it be tolerated, as that is abuse being directed towards you.  Perhaps, you can start off by asking him what idea is if someone decided to start yelling at him, and then suggest this strategy.  Whatever boundary you put in place, be sure you are willing to follow through on it, consistently every time it happens.  If you don't follow through, then it will get worse.  Also the first several times you do the boundary it will also likely be much worse before it gets better.

This is an example that I use with my pwBPD.  If my pwBPD starts to get very irritated over something that they perceive I have done and start to raise their voice at me.  I will initially respond in a cool, calm voice "It must feel very frustrating for you that you have perceived I have done this to you - I am sorry that you feel that way".  (notice, I did not validate the invalid perception, I validated the feeling of being wronged).  If you actually did what they are accusing you of, own it, and apologize for it, but if it is false, address the feeling rather than their distorted fact(s).  However, if is not, and my pwBPD, is rational and accepts the apology for the way they feel, it stops there.  However, if they cannot be rational and they continue or even increase in volume and negativity and expand their more often than not false narratives.  I follow-up with a statement, again, cool and calm along the lines of "I hear how incredibly upset you are becoming, I know I don't like being yelled at, and I don't want to yell at you [back].  If we cannot have a normal conversation I am going to leave until things can calm down."  If they agree "We can wait an hour, let me know when you want to talk about this again after xx:xx"  (Put the ball in their court, once they settle down, it is usually something so small that ticked them off, they don't bring it up again, my pwBPD, only does this about 1 in a hundred times where they actually follow up on something).  However, if they don't agree and continue say something like "I am going to leave right now (to the other room/to run some errands/to my parents/etc), I will be back (I use tomorrow, as my pwBPD usually takes a sleep cycle to calm down - what ever your pwBPD takes to calm down)".  Always reassure them that you will be coming back, otherwise they may panic really badly.  It sucks doing it this way, as nothing gets accomplished.


I feel like I’m seeing images now of a potential future together, with a lot of work and time. I’m just unsure if I want it… I never expected marriage to be easy but I never expected it to be a lifetime commitment to being an emotion manager. I wanted an equal to take on the world side by side with, supporting each other but not dependent. Maybe that’s naive. Maybe I should accept that that’s not what I have, and make what I have work as best I can and accept things. Then that feels like” settling”which feels a whole different level of bad and not fair on anyone. Urgh head is a mess. Individual therapy later this week will be fun I’m sure.

Therapy is the best place to sort out these feelings.  If you don't set strong boundaries and speak to their feelings (vs false facts - this feels like being gaslit), it will only get worse.  I hear you, and sympathise as well as empathise with you - from what you have described you are only a few years in, I am in for more than two decades, and it will be three decades when I intend on being done.  For my particular situation, if there were not any children involved in my situation, I would not be in my current relationship.  And when my youngest leaves for college in 6 years time, that may be the case for me.  Make a list of the pro's and con's - weigh each of them based on importance to you, discuss them with your therapist.  Sleep on it, and then make a plan on what you want to do for yourself.

Also, ask yourself what you would recommend for a girlfriend if she was in your situation?  What would you recommend for her?

If you do decide to go the divorce route, make sure you "Pray/Hope for the best, but plan for the worst" as it can go very badly.  Come back here, as things can go 'south' just as fast as he can be angry/upset with you.

Take care with self-care.

Hi Stuck, I'm not a psychologist, but what you wrote sounds more like depression to me.  Having said that, BPD and depression can co-exist.

Sometimes my husband will exhibit some of the behaviors you describe:  stonewalling (refusing to discuss issues or take on necessary tasks) and "punishing" me when I show independence, anything from doing manly chores (fixing things, yard work, work with tools or ladders) to visiting with family and friends.  It's bizarre, but he will sometimes get angry when I do ordinary household chores, because I think that deep down, he feels guilty for not contributing enough, and yet he doesn't feel like helping.  But more than anything, I think that sometimes my husband feels a general lack of control in his life (which has become very stressful because of BPD in a family member) and tries to re-claim control by controlling me.  Control includes micro-management and efforts to impose a curfew, for example.  There were times when business trips and family events would infuriate him . . . as if these were somehow optional for me.

Some ways I've coped with this include the following.  I make time for self-care, even if it makes him angry temporarily.  I try to point out (but only when he's in a stable mood) that he gets to do whatever he wants whenever he wants, so it's only fair that I get free time here and there to do what I want, for example.  If he's reasonable, he should WANT me to take care of myself and cultivate important relationships.  Sometimes he will retaliate by calling to check up on me when I'm out of the house, but I've pointed out countless times that it is normal for someone to go to a gym for an hour or two without interruptions or status updates.  As he doesn't have BPD, he's able to see the logic in that.  Over time he's gotten more comfortable with me having my own life.  But he still is prone to anger if he feels neglected.

Another tactic I've used is praise and appreciation.  I look out for anything that he's done and praise him.  Catch him in the act of doing something positive!  Say, honey, I really appreciate how you took out the trash (even if you do it 10 times more often than he does).  If you notice and praise it, he's much more likely to do it again.  Don't expect him to notice what you do; just be happy that he contributes (and/or pays some bills) and is making a positive change.  If he goes to therapy, tell him how you're sincerely grateful that he's willing to work on feeling better and having a positive relationship.  Even if the therapy doesn't work, at least he tried, and that is meaningful for both of you.  This may seem manipulative, but I prefer to look at it another way.  Wouldn't you like it if your loved one acknowledged all the hard work you're doing?  Then it's fabulous to notice the good things he's doing, and I can almost guarantee that he will want to do more, the more you acknowledge it.  The other good thing is that you can start this right now.  Just catch him in the act.  Even if he emerges from self-imposed isolation, just say, it's so nice to spend some time with you.

Finally, when my husband is upset and yelling, I resist engaging.  I've found that arguing just feeds his anger, and when he's angry, nothing is logical.  This is easier said than done, at least for me.  But I've tried not to provoke him further when he's angry and let him cool off before attempting a conversation.  As he is logical (but short-fused), he often sees how he let his emotions get the better of him in the moment.

Also, stepping away to give time and space for emotions to cool off is not passive-aggressive "punishment".  It is a positive boundary with a purpose, not some angry tit for tat.