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https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=355982.0

link above to latest on the detaching board.
Have been seeing each other again, albeit infrequently.

Hope you have all been well

So basically, we chat occasionally, in the past month we've hung out and been intimate twice, but both times have been impulsive and at night.
She doesn't talk to me like she used to. Her level of interest is clearly not what it once was.

It feels like I'm being used as a booty call, or just filler until she is either ready for more, or until she meets someone she's more interested in.
I feel like old shoes, comfy and reliable, but old and not exciting.
She doesn't reminisce about our actual relationship at all. It doesn't feel like she actually misses me.


For right now I'm backing off a bit until she reaches out to me. I've considered writing her and asking for clarification and direction but I feel that would just push her away right now.

This is an upward trajectory from where things were, yes?


To some extent, a limited extent, you are.

The prospect of rebuilding a relationship that ended can have its pull, but its daunting. Theres baggage. Youve heard the advice before, about reaching out to an ex, "it ended for a reason".

And yet, she's not in another relationship, and your relationship, for whatever state its in, has progressed from where it was, to more than it predictably would have been.

In terms of reconnecting, these are pretty good cards to draw. But there is more work to be done.

Right now, you don't trust her. You feel used. You're unsure of what your status is or where this is heading. All natural things to feel.

The thing to know is that she doesn't trust you either, and the two of you have competing ideas of what trust looks like or how to establish/rebuild it. It's important to see this through her eyes; not to agree with how she sees it, but to get where she's coming from.

There is a great deal of push/pull over these competing ideas. You want commitment she's not prepared to make. When you push for that, she pulls away. She wants a different approach from you, in order to establish trust. When she pushes for that, you pull away.

You can both skate on that dynamic for quite a while. Getting right up to the line, but neither prepared to commit. Eventually, that dynamic will fizzle out.

In essence, the two of you are at a stalemate. The only thing that will make this work is if one of you commits to doing something different and changes the dynamic. That's unlikely to be her, for a variety of reasons. The change that brings this home, is more than likely going to have to come from you.

As I said before, to make this happen really involves playing the long game. Necessarily, that requires seeing this through her eyes. She likes you! She wants you! But that emotional connection and that trust are not there. She told people she couldn't get back with you. Understand, it takes an enormous amount of change for someone to go back on that.

Granted, you have been playing the long game. And to some extent you've changed your approach, and its been working. But still, there is a great deal of distrust and push pull going on.

There's nothing wrong with saying "I think I've overplayed my hand, and I need to back off to balance things out." A confident and secure man knows when to do that. It works.

Make sure what you aren't doing is pulling away because she's not committing enough. It would be far more prudent to say this isn't moving at the pace i hoped it would and I don't have the patience for it (which is valid!) so im reluctantly moving on. If insecurity drives the move, she will sense that, and she will mirror it, and the two of you will just dance in distrust until the bottom falls put.

I'm not telling you to just throw your heart on the line to get stepped on. That wouldn't be smart, or attractive. It's possible that she has no idea what she wants, or even doesn't want this, can't help herself, and she's going to make a mess of things.

The read that I get is that you're in the drivers seat a lot more than you think, and the more comfortably you play things, the more comfortable she will be.

That's my take on it, anyway.

I really appreciate the insight, that makes a lot of sense.

She seems to back off when I flirt with her right now, so I'm just going to leave that alone.

I haven't messaged her at all today, I'm just giving it a few days to see if she takes some initiative.

Once,

Can you elaborate on this bit?

Im torn between "trying, and having it come off as needy, and shooting myself in the foot" VS. "Not trying enough and things just fade and die"

Im lost as to what I could be doing here that would be best.
I feel like she isnt emotionally interested, and that if something new came along, I would be left behind yet again.

well, in a lot of your posts, it seemed like you would get frustrated, and, more or less, either say screw her, or tell her if we arent getting back together, see ya later.

those wont work (not that it isnt a valid option to walk away, its just better to mean it when you do). she balks at any pressure.

but that isnt to say that if you think youre overdoing it, or coming off needy, that you shouldnt give some space. it seems to me like you get the difference. a while back, stopping the bleeding/conflict was the biggest issue.

specifically as it applies to "how much you should do", and "do enough vs do too little", i think youre doing enough. she knows how you feel. and not only that, but shes continuing the relationship such as it is, knowing that. the only thing id be worried about is pushing. whether its pushing for clarity, or pushing for time (i dont think theres anything wrong with seeing if she wants to spend time, but who is the one initiating that, for the most part? you or her or both?).


you know her best, so i dont want to mislead, but i have a little bit different impression. she strikes me as more guarded than not emotionally interested. perhaps "not emotionally invested". which makes sense at this stage, and is not necessarily a bad place to be (just one that takes a lot of patience).

in other words, i wouldnt expect her to be doing any active pursuing, at least in terms of a committed relationship. if things heat up, i might expect her to pull back a little, just to catch her breath. she was very committed to the breakup. i think even if things are going well, and change is demonstrable, it would still be prudent for someone who had been committed to a breakup to approach it slowly and cautiously.

but lets assume youre right. first, there arent any guarantees here, no matter how well things go. thats always true. but second, attracting her is obviously a big part of the equation here.

and the opportunities and ways to do that are somewhat limited and tricky, though far from nonexistent. you have to spend time together in order to do that. you have to have opportunities come up where shed be expecting something to happen, and then shes surprised when something else happens. for example, if she were to pull back, and shes expecting you to push, and you "play it cool" instead, that would both take her by surprise, and be attractive. thats just one example.

attracting her (or reattracting her) by and large means letting her see the cool, happy go lucky guy she fell for in the first place. it also means catching her off guard (pleasantly) when the opportunity presents itself. it also means not pushing for either commitment or time.

by and large, i think if youre doing those things, youre playing your best hand. it will take time. this is and always has been a long game. it seems to me things have progressed pretty substantially, but i dont think thats enough in that amount of time to eliminate all of the baggage and mistrust. its got to be built on, consistently, over time. she has to take for granted that all of the conflict in the old relationship is way past dead.

beyond that, id just be doing as much as youre doing as i can. get together when you can (my impression is that shes actually initiated most of the hanging out, correct me if im wrong about that). if sex is on the table and its not complicating things or making them worse, go for it. making the most out of what exists right now, and following her lead on that.


can you say a bit more about what happens when the two of you get together? and also why you think shes not emotionally interested? it might help shed some light on other steps you can take.

In the past few months, we've only hung out a few times. All of those were after 9pm. She initiated both recent hangouts, but it was pretty clear the first time it was just to hook up. The second time that was quite literally expressed.

She doesn't reach out to me about normal stuff, Although she has initated both recent hangouts, I usually have to initate any conversation.
She just doesn't put the effort in anymore to joking, communicating etc.
Our conversations are a lot less substatial and I do believe it is because she doesnt want to get emotionally invested, and she wants to avoid me getting to attached (pUre guesswork there)

When we hang out, we talk and laugh just fine, then eventually hook up.
I have hinted at wanting to do things like Hike, go out to dinner, etc. She never says No to these things, but kind od brushes them aside, doesnt aknowladge them and moves on with the conversation.

We both have the same custody schedule. So this coming weekend is another weekend we could possibly see eachother.
Im starting to feel like it wont happen this week, even though it has the past two weekends weve been free.

okay.

looking at the big picture, this is about where i would bet things would be.


that sounds about right to me.

shes not getting too deep, or making what could be construed as efforts to reconcile the relationship, or possibly lead you on.

but the relationship is warm, there is attraction, and she is initiating getting together, as well as sex.


this makes sense too.

she could say a hard no, she could say stop asking, she could say again that the two of you will never get back together, she could shut it all down hard. she isnt doing any of that.

so shes either afraid to say no to you (i dont get that impression. if she were, i dont think shed be open to any of this) or shes unsure/not ready. it might be worth continuing to throw these ideas out there as long as it isnt pushy; she may get to yes, but you could also drop shooting for further plans if you get the feeling its not accomplishing anything.

honestly man, my reading of all of this is that youre in about the best position i would hope to be in the circumstances, that theres definitely potential (not a guarantee) for more, and that there has been substantial progress. it probably doesnt feel like much, and it probably feels like its taken an eternity, but frankly, that is often what the long game is. a long slog that requires a whole lot of patience, often a lot of confusion and vulnerability. i dont see any signs that give me pause or warning.

generally speaking, all you really have to do is keep working toward and being that best version of yourself, using whatever opportunity you get to create attraction, and just keeping emotional cool (at least in front of her. when things get tough this is always a great place to either vent about it, and/or get perspective on it, which can be hard to do in this situation). on top of that, though, i would seriously recommend learning and practicing the tools taught on this board as much as possible. it doesnt seem like theres much opportunity to use them at the moment, but they will be invaluable to you when and if things progress further, and theyll be invaluable to you regardless. its something you can be investing in, even when things seem to be going slowly.

what do you think?

Contact has been spuratic, but she has always ended up responding or reaching out, sometimes it takes a day or two.

She has been busy on her end, with vet appointments and so on.
She said to me the other day after not replying for 2 days "Sorry for the delayed response. Ive sucked at human interaction lately"

I guess i am just being discouraged a bit by the lack of excitement on her end.
We used to talk at length about history, folklore, etc. many mutally interested topics.
That HAS happened, but its very sparce.

Same can be said about "Attraction" or desire.
We've hooked up, but she doesnt flirt with me like she used to.
Doesn't get EXCITED about things.

She hadnt responded at all really to my recent flirtatious attempts, but doesnt shut them down, and we DO still occasionally hookup. Im trying to rebuild all the attraction. Time was, I was as irresistable to her as she is to me.
Just taking it slow, easy, and not building any hopes and expectations.
Not putting my eggs all in the same basket.

Summer is chaotic, and is ending.
We spent a lot of time yesterday talking about the dogs, which was nice. She sent an adorable photo of "our" (Her) youngest dog.
I miss the dogs terribly.

i think its natural to be. "the long game" is usually frustrating and discouraging. it can be very hard to gauge if youre making any "progress", and when thats the goal, and all you really wanta do, its even more frustrating because you dont know what more you can do, but youre still trying to think. there isnt much feedback or reward. its exhausting.

it doesnt mean it isnt working, or that nothing is happening, though. and that can be hard to see when youre in it.


while id be disappointed, i dont think thats entirely surprising at this stage, for several reasons.

remember, you are operating in two different headspaces.

your goal is to be in a relationship with her. she is wary about that idea. she, months ago, said it would never happen. ive said it before, but it bears repeating, it takes a person a LOT to go back on that kind of thing. obviously, i think in her mind she has clearly reconsidered that, but it doesnt mean shes ready to leap into it. also, even if she has consciously reconsidered it, she wouldnt want to lead you on if she werent sure.

regardless, shes simply not preoccupied with it in the same way you would be. she knows how you feel. there isnt the same sense of urgency about it for her that you might feel. thats not a bad thing, either. its just easy, when youre in this position, to read the other persons every move as indicating either interest or disinterest, when theyre just not reading and watching us or themselves the same way.

it could also be that the old chemistry is dead. try thinking in terms of the old relationship being dead, and trying to build a very different one. it may mean connecting differently, or over different things. while you still have your history in common, time has passed, and youre not exactly the same people anymore

in other words, that she is not responding in the way that she used to, is not necessarily a bad sign. she doesnt want the old relationship back, it ended for a reason. part of building attraction is making things "new and exciting". a lot of people just try to rekindle what died.


this also sounds like a big part of it, at least recently. she sounds like shes running a bit ragged.

knowing me, if i were in that position, id probably be worried about fading into the background with that going on, but it doesnt seem to be that way; shes making you somewhat of a priority.


at the end of the day, this is your greatest indicator. how many months ago was it that she said youd never get back together? as ive said, and want to stress, if she wanted to, she could shut things down, and hard, and generally speaking, a woman that has made up her mind about such a thing absolutely would. thats not to say shes gone from "never" to "definitely", but it is a significant change.

question is whether to keep doing it, or to dial it back. youre in the best position to gauge that.


things do change as summer ends! right now, from my position, the possibility of reconciling looks better than not. since there are no guarantees, thats pretty much what one has to hope for. it just looks to me like the slow, frustrating, but upward trajectory of "better than not".

Hey buddy, it's good to see you're still hanging in there despite everything going on.

Let me make this super simple- what do you want right now?  If an occasional booty call is okay, then keep on keeping on.  If you still want more from the relationship, then you have to decide if it's heading in the right direction OR bringing you down by stirring up past memories.  Either way though, this is ultimately about (1) what you want and (2) what she's willing to give.

As others mentioned, if you're in this for the long game thinking that it's going to lead back to an incredible love story, you already know that the odds are highly against that ever happening.  You can't read into this and ask what this interaction or that interaction means...it simply means that she's testing the waters with you and has no idea what she actually wants.  Maybe she'll never know, which is common in these situations.

So once again, forget about what she wants or what her true intentions are- what do you want right now?  That's what you have to do for now, and I really hope that it doesn't end up breaking your heart all over again.

I'm praying for you buddy, you've been on my mind lately and I hoped that you'd make a post.

She seems concerend with things getting too involved.
After 2 days of silence (our convo from Monday dropped off a cliff randomly and she stopped talking so i matched that), i just sent a "Hey, Is everything ok?"
After a few hours she responded back
"Hi"
"Yes, definitley"
"Old home day is Sat and DAUGHTERs birthday is tommorow, Ive been busy"
"You promised me a month ago that it wasnt going to get like it did if i cam up to hang out that day"

I replied
"yea im excited for her birthday, what are you doing for it?

It's not, I'm just making sure things are good on your end, no other concerns beyond that for me"

Which was kind of a snippy response, and one that serves to "remind me of the scenario"
Honestly felt kinda like it was a harsh response if i am being honest. Felt like I was being reminded of my place.

Im going away on vacation next week and will be out of cell service for a lot of it.

We are actually chatting quite a bit right now. She sent me a picture of Her Daughter which she has not done in quite a while. She always puts a negative spin on everything. I said I wished I could do more for DAUGHTERs birthday and she said, " I understand. It's hard to leave the kids. I felt the same on Christmas and MY SON's birthday" and when I said that DAUGHTER is growing up very fast she said " she is the very definition of a young woman now. It's been hard to accept" I'm being very positive, she must be in a crappy mood. I don't know why everything needs a negative spin. Also she brings up reminders of our turmoil. In subtle ways like her mentioning leaving the kids just now. A few weeks ago when I was hanging out at her house, she mentioned that the new neighbors yell and scream a lot. She said "they're the new us, they might even be louder than we were haha" it's like she puts these reminders in to keep distance
 I know she has had a lot going on lately, Old Home Day is a big deal, and that pops off this weekend. Today is DAUGHTERS B-Day. The comment she made yesterday irritated me. Like i said it felt like she was putting me in my place. I thought about it afterward, and i think when i asked "Is everything Ok?" She heard "Is everything WITH US ok?" I was only asking about her, not us. However her response tells me she doesn't want me to "Be in love with her" right now or something. Maybe she just doesn't want me getting clingy, which makes sense given what she said. She acts sometimes like our past didnt happen, good and bad. and she is hooking up with me but backs off any time i flirt. Very odd behavior. But yea, I am letting her do the heavy lifting, and moreover I am emotionally OK with that. Am I happy and elated? no. But it isnt crushing my life like it used to. She has priorities to decide on, and her behavior still varies from day to day. A few days ago i was getting long texts and photos of the dog. She is like an ever changing tide
Basically where I'm at, is that I'm not putting forth any emotional signals towards her at all. I have curtailed the amount and the content of what I reach out about. She messaged me earlier, asking me about [name] for once. I'm just going to continue to put myself first, pull back on the amount of contact. She's either going to realize that she actually misses me or she's going to realize she doesn't care and I won't hear from her. I have hinted towards wanting to do things more than just hooking up. I have mentioned going hiking, going out walking around Downtown and so on. I haven't directly asked, but she did not jump on any of those opportunities. I don't want to just be a sexual item and a source of verbal validation. I'm going to let my distance build attraction if there's anything left there to build.

this paints a much clearer picture.


she is. you are seriously underestimating that.

it is at the forefront of her mind in every interaction you have.


because that is how she views the relationship that you are hoping she will go back to.

youre responding to it in the same old way.

there isnt anything to suggest that the new relationship would be different, better, stronger, healthier. by and large, the things that were broken between the two of you still are.


you have said this many times. do you think that if you respond to what shes telling you by pulling away in just the right way, that this time, its going to improve the relationship?

most of us who arrive here are wanting for relationship skills. this is evidenced by the level of dysfunction we fell into, how we managed it, and that we partnered with someone who by definition is wanting for relationship skills.

the discovery of that can really be the trick to healthier, happier relationships in the future. relationship skills are something that one can improve.

i think that right now, the most important thing you could be doing, if you want to give this a real shot, is invest in building your relationship skills.

what is hurting you the most i think, when i read your words, is that youre not hearing her or reading her.

instead, you are mostly focused on your feelings of defensiveness, or disrespect. which is not to say they arent valid feelings, but that its hard to hear someone from that position.

it might help, when you feel that way, to step back from that, and see these things as not things to take personally or pull away from her, but as opportunities.


she sent a picture of her daughter. a sore spot between the two of you. a demonstrative opportunity to bond.

you got kinda needy on her and the way you talk about her, you couldnt be more put off by her.

see what i mean? there is a distance. she was being vulnerable here. you wanted her to match your energy.



this seems like a consistent sore spot, or a trigger. one that i think you have gotten a great deal less reactive about (which has helped, a lot), but not a lot more mindful of.

think of BPD. you know how logic goes out the window when triggered? when emotions are so strong that they cant hear you and just keep shouting things and accusations?

triggers can do that, or a lesser version of it, to anyone. its much harder to look at things more objectively, or react in constructive ways.

she isnt putting you in your place. shes communicating to you the state of the relationship, and that she does not feel safe progressing it. no less, no more.


she isnt putting you in your place. shes giving you the opportunity to give her any reason to believe that a future relationship would be any different.

these are tests. im not saying shes sitting there consciously "testing you", but women (generally speaking) will often do these things. communicate an uneasy feeling, and gauge our reaction. when we mirror that with our own uneasiness, it doesnt build attraction.


only odd behavior when you read it through those personal lens. she does not see the situation as emotionally safe enough to have strings attached. its a clear communication, if you read, and hear her: shes into you, but she is not past the roadblocks.


you can do this, and the two of you can keep doing a push/pull dance, and that can probably go for some time, until it ends.

if you really want this to happen, build attraction by building yourself. build your skills.

the tools section is at the top of the page. i love the one on listening with empathy.

Thanks pook, my reply to you got placed in another thread, but I would like to continue the conversation here as I find that this is the place that I get the best and most constructive feedback.

For months now I have made myself available and been infinitely patient and understanding. She continues to keep me at arm's length, still has me blocked on social media because she is either hiding me from her world or hiding her world from me.

If she's going to reach out she's going to reach out, if she actually wants to see me and respects my opinion and wants to hear from me, she will reach out.

People talk about playing the push pull game, well when I was pursuing the situation I was only met with resistance. I'm not trying to play any push-pull games, but I deserve someone who wants me as much as I want them. I deserve someone who respects me as much as I respect them. She's been capable of this in the past, but perhaps it was deceptive. Who knows.

All I know is that when things are good they are great, but as I have said from the get-go, I'm not here to be a secondary option or a momentary relief. We were engaged. We are either doing this or we are not. And that decision lies in her Court

Good to hear from you as well buddy.

I asked, "What do you want?"

You answered by telling me what she wants, what she's doing, etc.  We know that it's push/pull and it's terribly painful to be stuck in that place.

Then you told me what you deserve- and we all agree with that because we all deserve to get back what we put in our relationships.  We also know the position you're currently in because we've been there (or are there).  It stinks and it's certainly not fair.

So I'll ask again, what do you want?  That's the one decision you get to make here and nobody has any say in it, not ever her.  You can accept her behavior and continue to do what you're doing, or you can change the narrative and do something else.  Because this isn't about her...what she says, what she does, what she thinks...none of that matters.  What does matter is what you want and what you're willing to accept.

I know how much you've hurt throughout this saga and right now, you're like a car stuck in neutral at the top of the hill.  A good wind can push you forward or backwards down that hill, putting you in a better or worse situation depending on your perspective.  What we're telling you to do is stop letting your ex decide...push that car in the direction you want it to go, or pull the emergency brake and sit exactly where you are if that's what you prefer.

What do I want?
Equality, I want to be wanted and sought out.
I want to fall in love again, right this time.
I want to be respected and desired.

I want a partner, not games.

Okay, great start.  You want to be loved, respected, desired, and wanted.  That's a very fair expectation in any relationship.

Can your ex give that to you today?  It's not a complicated question and only requires a "yes" or "no" answer.

My friend, you have two very difficult options here. 

Option 1, you wait this out and keep riding the waves.  Maybe it has the fairytale ending, maybe not.  The odds are really against you in this situation though because the only thing that can "fix" the relationship is your ex getting into therapy and wanting to make real change. 

I know she's done that to some degree and made progress, but will she ever be able to fully trust you again?  That's just not something you can control.  It's not fair at all but it is what it is- BPD sucks. 

Option 2, you stop waiting this out and take control.  You give new love another chance and see where it takes you.  If you see your ex from time to time, so be it, that's your choice because you're in control.  If the old relationship somehow repairs itself over time, then great, but you're not going to wait on it any longer and you're going to stop throwing energy in that direction.

Personally, I chose option 2 and it actually brought my wife and I closer because it took relationship out of the equation.  I had to make that conscious decision to move on though so my ex and I could both heal.  As long as you're waiting though and she knows your expectations, it's going to keep her at arm's length and cautious.

Buddy, there's a verse in the Bible, 1st Corinthians 7:15.  It says that if an unbeliever departs, let them depart.  A brother or sister is not in bondage in such cases because God hath called us to peace.

I know you're not religious, but this verse is what I leaned on to move forward because it hit me so hard.  I can't change my wife or her intentions, and I'm not expected to wait through her chaos begging for a second chance.  I had to let her go and move on with my life, even though I didn't want to.  That's what ultimately healed me though and brought peace back into my life.

I hope that helps brother, I'm here for you whenever you need me.

interesting choice of words.

can we deserve our way into a healthy relationship? or deserve our way into one at all?

in my experience, and as a golden rule of psychology, if we want a quality partner, we have to be one, or become one.

remember, respect is earned, not deserved. so are quality relationships.

so, if you deserve that with her, then ask yourself why it isnt happening.

if you deserve better than her, then ask yourself what youre doing, because your words and actions are significantly at odds.


there are two major problems with this. the first is that she professes, consistently, not to want this. its your goal, not hers. it isnt as though youre both working toward the same thing, and shes just being inconsistent about it. she actively doesnt want things to go further than they have.

the second is not that you deserve these things, you expect them. you expect those things, but youre still doing the same old things trying to get them, and getting mad at her and withdrawing when she doesnt give them. that is not a way to create attraction, just more instability, dysfunction, and resentment. youre doing this in subtle ways and big ones. it is telegraphing to her that nothing has changed, or will change.


if this is your narrative, it illustrates the gap between the two of you, and how far away you are from understanding where shes coming from.

youre talking about a person who has said you will never be together again, who has just the other day reiterated this, and clearly told you this relationship as it stands will not progress. who has told you that she sees the two of you as a parody of a highly dysfunctional couple.

you are in the position, if you want her back, of trying to change her mind. you seem to think that either your charms, or withdrawing, will accomplish that. it will not. it will only convince her its the right decision.

it is clear to me and anyone reading that she has some level of feelings for you, has attraction to you, and generally likes your company (which is a position people on this board would kill for). but for her, it ends there. the idea of reconciling, to her, isnt a safe one. while shes stopped saying "NEVER EVER EVER", shes still saying a hard "no".

the difference between "NEVER EVER EVER" and "still no" is either an inch, or a mile, depending on how you play it. right now, youre not taking it as an honest assessment of where she is (you seem to interpret it as moodiness, or game playing, or "putting you in your place"), and what, if anything, might move her from "still no" to "i can see this happening", youre just taking it personally.

withdrawing only works when the other person wants the same thing that we do, but maybe weve been over pursuing. even then, it works because a person has thick enough skin to say "what im doing isnt helping, but hurting", and the presence of mind to change their actions. thats confident, sexy, and attractive. its mature. its emotionally safe. withdrawing as a means of trying to win respect, make someone miss you, or make someone pursue you is none of those things.

and when youre doing it to someone that doesnt want the same thing? its a little bit like these 112 degree days in texas. the fact that i continue to go outside doesnt mean i want them, and taking them away from me is not going to make me miss them.

as things are, she is not interested in reconciliation. shes interested in spending some time with you, no strings attached.

that essentially gives you three options: 1. keep doing what youre doing 2. write it off and hang it up 3. do something radically different.

ready for door number three?

This all makes a lot of sense, but I am at a loss as to what radically different is?

We broke up, and i heard "NEVER AGAIN" before in the past, and we ended up living together and engaged.
Then thigs dissolved again. Engulfment is totally a thing with her, and although her attraction has been re-ignited, her feelings clearly have not been. I also believe the social stigma of getting back together a third time is playing hard on this situation.

I have shown i can handle space, and that im not overdoing things.
We have the connection you all talk about.

So im quite at a loss as to what other changes I am looking down the barrel of here.

Therapy taught me a lot about what flaws I have, and how to better manage them. I believe I am doing and have done that well.
So in the meantime I will try and figure out what "Radically different" for me looks like, and what else I need to be better at.

This is one of the first times in all this journey I feel totally at a loss as to what the next step is.

 I honestly think public perception plays a lot into it. I think during our second break up she told a lot of people in her life that we were completely Splitsville and was never going to happen again. Probably bad-mouth me a bit to people like her best friend and her dad. And then on top of that I think she has absolutely no problem or difficulty reminding herself of the reasons our relationship didn't work to her perception. I'm still quite convinced that engulfment plays a huge role with her. The timing of decline after engagment was quite telling. Upon thinking of it, its only really when I do pull away. The first reunion we had was largely part to the fact that she thought I was moving Away, and every time she has been the one to reach out, it has been after a period of silence from me. She "knows" ill always be around, and my behavior in the past has only served to rienforce that idea.
Im not saying I am going to go distant here in an attempt to cause any reaction, I much prefer to be in touch with her, which we have been, albeit lacking mutual enthusiasm or consistancy.

did you see my response to your thread that was on Conflicted? ive moved it back into this thread, up above. it contains practical examples of instances where there was an opportunity to handle things differently, namely the moment where she sent a picture of her daughter, and the moments where she makes comments inserting distance, such as when she made that comment about some toxic couple being like yall.

the real point of those instances is to recognize your usual reactions, and begin to change them, not that you screwed up your chances; while in a situation where youre trying to reverse a breakup there can be little room for error, the chances here, for better are worse, remain about the same as they have, at least as i see it.

the impression i got was that when she makes those comments, to insert distance as you put it, its frustrating for you. and of course it is. youve got this hope, things are going okay, and then wham. but she can, whether consciously or not, feel your response to them.

so, just for an example, when she makes a comment about how "theyre just like we were", rather than getting thrown off by it, an upbeat and confident guy might laugh and say something like "yeah, the old me/us is embarrassing now".

im not saying literally say that (personalize it and use your own example that reflects the way you talk to each other), and im not saying "hey, just do that and she'll be yours!".

the point is that, like i said, youre in the position where youve got to change her mind. if you apply that one example more broadly, it means changing your reactions (a nearly universally attractive thing, because its new and exciting, its curious, and psychologically, it pushes a person to reconsider. ever notice how when someone breaks up with someone, then sees that person living their best life, it bugs them, makes them doubt their decision?), and in turn, changing her mind. think of those digs as tests. an opportunity to catch her off guard, rather than something to be discouraged by.


i can appreciate that its a very confusing situation to be in.

on one hand, very generally speaking, men dont always hear "no", and women arent always direct.

on top of that, throw in BPD traits, and things can get a lot more confusing. if i were advising her, id be saying a lot of the same things to her.

but i would suggest hearing her "no" for what it appears to be. not taking it for granted, or thinking it isnt serious, or thinking its moodiness, but also understanding it isnt the same as "NEVER AGAIN". shes sleeping with you. it doesnt mean she wants to be in a relationship, but it clearly doesnt mean she wants nothing to do with you.

it means its not going to progress unless something changes radically (and still no guarantee if it does).


the number one thing youve done (and the first thing to do) was stop the bleeding. the two of you arent fighting. things (generally) are not being made worse. youre enjoying each others company. youre not lashing out at her, there have been no "goodbyes" between the two of you for some time. all of that created the space to be where you are now.


but what you had, and still by and large have, is the old connection. youre in the difficult task of preserving the best parts of that, to the extent you can, considering that connection dead, and creating a new and better one. that opportunity around her daughters picture was a good example. it probably would have helped in that moment to give her the space to talk, and just listen to her.


now when you say engulfment, can you clarify what you mean there?

the fear of engulfment tends to manifest as the person with bpd doing everything they can to become who we want them to be, and then resenting themselves, and then resenting us, for "making them do it", and not seeing them for who they really are.

engulfment is often confused with, but not necessarily the same as, needing space. that can happen when we are needy or clingy or just plain over pursuing. i dont have a clear sense that this is a big problem, but you have suggested that either you have been, or she sees you that way. certainly, any of those things can be a turn off, and when it happens it goes a long way to recognize and dial back. or, if shes just kind of an independent type that needs a lot of space (or introverted like me, i need a lot), its certainly good to be mindful of her sensitivities, like anyone else.

if there has been a problem with neediness/clinginess/over pursuing, it helped me to learn a while back that a relationship with two emotionally needy people wont work. one, sure. but with two, its just a constant fight of trying to get those needs met, and never really hearing or recognizing each other. such is statistically usually the case in a partnership where bpd is involved.


how is it going? are you still involved?

there is all of that, for sure.

on top of that, there was that moment of violence, and, forgive me, i dont remember the details, but what she found out about her daughters therapy and its affects on her.

plus, old relationships are baggage/dead weight.

that is why i keep stressing the point that something radical needs to change, in order to change her mind. its not merely changing her mind. its changing her mind from all of that. its a very tall order. and yet, it certainly seems possible.


im touching on this because its a fine line. i can certainly believe all of that. withdrawing has certainly gotten me positive reactions before, too. i think men tend to be taught that it works (if you look at pick up artist tips, its near the top). under the right circumstances, and when its coming from a healthy place, it obviously helps to pull back. hell, under the wrong circumstances, it can work.

the question you have to ask is "is it working, and to what point?".

if all thats going to happen is the same as whats happening right now, probably nothing. youll spend months just testing the waters, eventually she shuts it down, you pull away, she comes back, repeat.

there isnt likely to be a way you can strategically withdraw enough and at the right time that its going to cause her to change her mind and want to enter into a relationship. its not really a strategy, or if it is, it will just see diminishing returns.

if somehow it worked like it did before, it wouldnt be a promising foundation to rebuild on.

you also have to look at the emotional safety and trust part of the equation. thats what is largely missing, a key ingredient in moving her from "no" to "i could see it" or "yes". withdrawing wont always hurt that, but it wont help it.

i think the point really is dont let withdrawing become pouting, and dont mistake it for a strategy. if you think youre over pursuing, then sure, of course, dial it back.

Id say an example of that recently was the "You said it wouldnt get like last time" comment she made recently. I even said it felt like a test of sorts.
While I mentioned here it felt like her "keeping distance", my response to it, or lackthereof is worth noting.

I simply said "It's not" and moved on, and she moved on as well and our conversation continued.

I just dont know how to proceed regarding contact.

Do i continue spuratic "check ins"? (Which HAVE resulted in some good communication lately, but makes me feel like nothing will change sometimes.) Am i providing emotional support and "letting her have her cake and eat it" by doing this?

Cool off, back off, quietly, and let her reach out (or not)? (runs risk of "fading away" or abandonment?)

OR

Have a conversation about what we are doing and/or working towards (Which could be an explosive result) High Risk / Reward?

I want her to want to see me beyond just meeting up at night to hook up occasionally.

I don't feel like I know enough to advise about this. When you say checkins, do you mean saying hey, trying to make plans, or both?

I don't see what it's hurting? You want to see her, be in touch, pursue her, court her. That ball is pretty much in your court. Unless you feel that its doing some sort of harm?


She has reached out some, yes? I think if you want to do less of it and see if she does more, it's not going to hurt anything, but its not going to make much difference either way. The best case scenario is you know something is still there. I think you already know that.


In my experience, this fails more than 99% of the time if the goal is to achieve reconciliation.

All that will happen is she will feel backed into a corner, and she will tell you what she already has, except that it may be with more permanence. That sort of hail Mary is the sort of thing to do only when you are resigned to walking away, and you can't make yourself do so without a "never ever".


This may be possible, and it may not be. The only power you really have over that is to not be someone she can meet at night and hook up with. That's a perfectly valid position that you should consider. Is it something that's going against your values? Is it something that's hurting mentally? There are reasons to examine that and determine if its something you want to put a stop to.

If it's making you anxious, or you're worried about her "just" seeing you that way, or that it makes you look weak, I dont get that impression.

In other words, to me it's more a question of "is this healthy for both of you", vs "is this helping or hurting your chances of reconciliation".

By check Ins I meant me asking how she's doing, asking to make plans etc, yes.

It honestly feels like if I don't reach out, she won't either. I don't feel like I matter to her.
I'm just around to satisfy physical and emotional needs, WHEN she needs them . That's how it feels anyhow.

And yes, I'm still doing therapy . You had asked before.
Therapist thinks she's "back burnering" me again

Ok, so today, after a day of quiet, I messaged her and we were just chit chatting, and I made a mildly suggestive comment about "I'd rather be warm and in bed with you instead of this rain" and she replied "I'm not super comfortable talking about being in bed"

To which I replied "Can i ask for clarification on why? Just so I'm understanding you all the way. I'm not upset by the boundary I just want to understand it.
If you don't feel like explaining now that's fine too. "

She replied "Maybe another time. I'm driving and you should have fun with your friends. "

Me : "Ok, we're just waiting for a table.
I miss flirting with you, and you flirting back
 
Can we possibly hang out soon?"

Her: "lets talk about that later. I'm feeling confused and I'll just give confusing answers "

You telegraphed a sexual innuendo, and when she communicated that she was uncomfortable with that, you kind of made another.

How did I make another?

She communicated her uncomfortableness, and you doubled down.

I don't really see that as doubling down.

the back and forth helps a lot. lets walk this through.


at which point you make a mental note of that, and either artfully or awkwardly change the subject. but for gods sake, change the subject   lol


no! theres no reason to ask for clarification on why!

and if she doesnt feel like explaining now thats fine too?  :(



please hear me when i say im the king of having done all of these things. man to man, i can put myself in that situation and have a pretty good idea for how you felt. i dont mean to bust your balls, but to help.

this is really needy stuff. if you step back and read that, you are repeatedly setting yourself up for rejection. its probably why you feel like youre striking out with her when youre trying to build attraction and/or flirt. shes not rejecting you; shes rejecting your approach.

this stuff makes her feel cornered. think about it from her perspective: she says she feels uncomfortable discussing something. asking her for clarification would make her feel as if she has to explain or justify it.

"and if shes not in a relationship, why should she?" is exactly what shed be thinking, because it implies you have a right to know, which in her mind you dont, which reminds me her of the potential downsides of a relationship, or the bad parts of the old one, which digs her heels in.

pushing her (anyone, not just her) almost guarantees being shut down even more firmly. its human nature. notably, she actually didnt do that. she just tried to change the subject/exit the conversation. dont chase when she does this. let her.

telling her that you miss flirting with her, and her flirting back (when shes exited the conversation), is chasing. think about it: what is she reasonably supposed to say to that? is she supposed to respond by flirting? what, at this point, is there to flirt with? is she supposed to explain her lack of flirting? apologize? it is saying (or what she hears) "please flirt with me".

if youre finding that flirting with her is getting this response consistently, i suspect its one of the bigger hurdles youre facing, and, the good news is, one of the easiest to nip in the bud.

timing is everything (if youre going to flirt with her, pick a time when the energy is there. dont force it). if she balks at it, take note, dont push, and retreat (this is the time to know when to pull back. when she responds with distance, discomfort, take note, quickly drop the approach).

make sense?

You and I have the best physical and intellectual connection in the world. It truly is second to none, and despite having some bad emotional history, I do still always feel like our good emotional history far far outweighs it.
It's been quite nice to be back in touch and doing some reconnecting, but I still can't shake the feeling of being a secret and being a second choice.Although Im not currently looking for anything labeled, or official or public, with you, if you are dating other people while still occasionally seeing me(which I don't know if you are, just clarifying my stance here) I'd rather not be involved, I wont be a backup choice. I understand if making anybody in your life aware that we are hanging out could be complicated, after the second break up that we had. I'm not asking to be public or anything like that. I don't even want to think or talk about a relationship right now, not yet.
I've been shut down when I tried to flirt with you like I always did in the past. I've been shut down when I tried to say things like that I missed you.
You have communicated fairly clearly to me that you don't seem to miss me, or crave me, or think about me very often.
If I'm going to be giving someone my physical affection, support, time and attention, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that person to give me some of those things in return.
If sex and occasional conversation is all you desire from me, please just communicate that.

I mean nothing but respectful communication here, and I wish you well.


------

I typed this out, have NOT sent it.
Probably won't, was just typing to get my feelings out.

Hey friend, let me tell you why this is a really bad idea to send.


Right now, she doesn't feel that way...because if she did, you'd be together.  So this statement will put her in a defensive mode and probably throw in some shame as well.  Why can't she feel that way?  She'd probably be thinking that it may be better to just not talk for awhile.


This is an ultimatum- choose me or walk away.  The part about labels doesn't really matter because you're telling her she must be exclusive with you (in whatever capacity) or be alone if she wants to communicate with you.  Very few people would respond favorably to that and she has no idea what she wants...so this pushes her away regardless.


There's some empathy here, but it's following the ultimatum and will likely be skimmed over without much thought.  She doesn't want to talk relationship though and this is still about your relationship, so it's going to backfire if anything.


This is not the way to talk about your feelings.  You can say you're hurt or upset, but you can't blame her for it.  That pushes her away.  Take the blame out of this statement and just say, "I miss flirting with you and enjoying our time together."


She will read this as, "You're a bad person and don't deserve my affection."  Is that the result you were hoping for?


What she desires is casual conversation to see if there's a path back.  You can't rush that and stating it is like another ultimatum that she doesn't want to deal with.


To her, everything written here will be seen as a personal attack and a violation of her boundaries.  So let's try this again.

"Hi <name>, you were on my mind today and I hope you're doing well.  

I really miss the intellectual connection we once shared and the long conversations we'd have about life. I hope you're doing well and I'm trying hard to respect your boundaries. This has been hard on me because I miss having you more in my life. I don't know if you're seeing anyone else right now, but I hope whoever you're spending your time with is treating you well. It's difficult for me to accept sometimes but I am working on it and I want you to be happy more than anything. I would like it if we can continue to talk and occasionally spend some time together. I love you and I'll always be here for you."

Notice I kept all of that about you and your feelings, except in parts where I wish her well.  I also acknowledged that I'm working on myself to respect her more instead of telling her what she can't or won't do.  I don't like the line about other boyfriends but if it has to be there, that's how I'd say it to come off as un-threatening as possible.  I also removed all the ultimatums and started on something positive that shows I actually care.

You can't come at her passive-aggressive and tell her what she's doing wrong or how she can be better to you.  That's like a slap in the face to someone with BPD and it only confirms that the relationship can never work.  I hope this helps you (or others) set the tone a little better.  I'm a writer by trade and the ultimate goal is to engage your reader with dialogue that will resonate, so I'm speaking from 20 years of experience here.  Your letter will only push her away and hurt her.  Mine might get a neutral or a slightly positive reaction.

We ended up having a pretty long convo over the weekend (that she initiated, not me)
She explained "seeing me is hard, and it brings up a lot of memories that are hard"
She said we should stop having sex, and told me she needed to "move on from me"
but then towards the end of the convo, she was saying "Well see what happens, maybe we can still hang out. I dont know what I want or need"

I responded with "Ok, whatever you are comfortable with and whatever makes you feel happy and healthy"

She's all over the place. She is the wind, I, the mountain.

it is pretty hard to read.

any update?

I've been letting her do the reaching out. Which she has, spuratically.
All we have talked about in the last few days was issues she was having with the water system in her (our old) house.

WHen you say hard to read, do you mean like "Hard to get a read on" or like "Difficult to read beause emotions"?

the former. its a confusing message to be given on its face, though that doesnt mean its indecipherable.

the whole thing sounds like a "bad" incident, but not a death knell.

i get the feeling it was sparked.

if you have been approaching this from the stand point of "i am trying to reconcile a relationship" and shes been approaching it from the stand point of "i have leaned against doing so, but im conflicted", things kind of came to a head for you, where you felt a need to pretty much say "lets get together, or lets split", i suspect she felt similarly, but with a more negative spin.

for her, if she has leaned against it, but leaned the other way, or at least leaned less against it, but things havent gotten to the point theyd need to be to establish a relationship, then she may be asking herself what, ultimately, the point is. so when this discussion happened, she may have been trying to cut bait, but remains conflicted.

i could, of course, be reading that entirely wrong, but its my suspicion, the impression i get, and my experience with such talks.


if that is how you handled it, you were wise to do so. to close the subject on her confusion ("maybe i dont mean it i dont know what i need") rather than "NEVER EVER", is obviously a better place to be if reconciliation is your goal.

backing off a bit and letting her initiate the contact helps too. it thaws the ice on an otherwise bad night, and its clearly positive that shes doing so.

in other words, i see this as more of a sign of urgency (things need to change) than this meaning your chances have dropped significantly. i think they took a hit - i dont think shes seeing a future at this point, and i think thats what makes it painful, so shes not seeing the point in continuing it. that suggests the door isnt closed; shes still open to persuasion.

All of our conversation of late, excluding the one about "us" this past weekend, has been about only her house.
I was honestly surprised she picked the convo back up yesterday and reached out to let me know the conclusion.
Last message i sent her last night was "Happy Super Blue Moon, enjoy her light" - to which she didnt respond.
The moon, sun, stars and whatnot are all pretty important to her.
She didnt reply to that, and I haven't messaged today.

Im constantly trying to guess when i should reach out, when i shouldnt, how long to wait, etc.
its taxing lol.

Next weekend, (8th-10th) we both dont have our kids.
I am hoping she asks to hang out, but right now, i dont think I should request it.

Any thoughts on how to proceed in the coming weeks?

i wouldnt really worry about it too much. id mainly just be trying to create a few days of pleasantness to get past the other night, kinda move past that, and kinda let her keep up initiating.

but beyond that, i dont think youll be shooting yourself in the foot to reach out to her or anything, if you have something to say and a reason to say it.


yeah, if it were me, i wouldnt go there, or directly or overtly flirt with her for the time being. upbeat/cool/confident/charming/whatever, but id avoid anything direct for now.

youll probably have a better feel for how to proceed in just a few days.

Sometimes it feels like she is already seeing someone else again and just donesn't want me to know yet incase it doesn't pan out.

Ok thanks for the input.
I appreciate it.

I am no pro, by any means, but I will say I have noticed that when I follow the opposite of my instinct with my uBDPh, I am usually better off than if I follow my instinct.

Can you give an example?

When my instinct says show him how much you care, that you want him around, that you want to contact him, that you want him to know that he is loved and wanted by his family, that he is our rock, that if I just make him feel "more loved" in the house, that he will stay around, he will split us all white at least for the time being, etc.  That's what I would want someone to do for me if I were truly feeling the way he says or seems to feel.  But...it seems like when I start to move forward, caring deep down so much about him, but not showing it and replying with the "cool" texts that he responds to me, removing all emotion, not initiating any flirting, including him when appropriate (we have kids together) all of a sudden he asks when he can come over to see the kids, offers to pick me up after I take my car in for its oil change so that the kids and I don't have to wait, randomly ends ups staying late to help put the kids to bed, so he can't go home that late, wants to know what we have been up to in a good way, etc.  Once, I decided to clean our bathroom (he is currently living at a rental house while the kids and I live in our house).  His stuff was a mess all over his side of the bathroom, and he isn't there to use it.  My kids want to be wherever I am, so I decided to clean his side and make it a place that the kids can use, instead of all of us cramming onto my side when we get ready in the morning.  I was afraid that this may piss him off, but decided to do so anyways, as it would be useful.  When he noticed it, he had the opposite reaction, "what are you kicking me out!" jokingly...then he put all of his stuff back out and started using the bathroom again!  As I said, everything with him is a cycle, I know the cycle like the back of my hand, I continue to work hard to figure out things like this that make the bads of the cycle shorter...and I have noticed lately that this is something that is backwards for me, but works to a degree! 

Let me add to that, when he is in a "good mood", I do follow my instincts for the most part. 

Did some thinking last night, and although I've been trying to veer away from the "Why does she do what she does" line of thinking, that is where I often, and inevitably last night ended up.

I was looking back at our convo from last weekend, and where she is so wishy washy about not seeing me anymore.

It almost feels like she had some burst of resolve, and was convincing herself to let it go.

Despite her efforts of projecting an air of "I am done, and content and ive moved on", she clearly hasn't.

"I need to move on from you"
"after I see you, it brings up past emotions"
"Its not that you're messy, its how i process it. Sometimes its just too much aftewards"
"I wasn't able to leave it in the past, it may not have bothered you after seeing eachother, but it bothered me"
These are some of the standout remarks she made of late.

We never stay out of touch for more than a month and a half.
During our first breakup and eventual reunion, we were in touch pretty much the entire time, and only went from December to May before becoming involved again, and I believe that would have occured earlier but she had tried dating someone else.
Since we split last September, we have reconnected or hooked up in January, then again in June/July.
It almost sets a pattern of "Every 4 Months" pattern. Which I find interesting because that is the duration of a season.
There are so many things that connect her to seasonal or lunar patterns. She really is some sort of mythological creature. A fleeting, seasonal, fairy creature.

Lastly, I am trying to keep myself reminded of the following things.
1.) I have never given up on her, despite her having given up on me over and over again. - I am the stable portion of this dynamic.
2.) I need to remeber that, A. Despite what my instinct will often tell me, I am in a position of equal power here. I can entirely remove myself from this entire situation at any time. B. I deserve honesty, compassion, transparancy and equal commitment.
She has shown she doesn't want and/or cannot achive this. While I maintain hope that someday she can, I will not settle for being played with.
3.) I am a smart, attractive, and interesting man. If this ultimately doesn't work (and it seems more and more like that each day. while we might flit and orbit about eachother, unless something fresh new and honest occurs, that may be as far as it goes) that I can and will find the love and devotion I have long sought in my life.

I tried reaching out with one antecdotal message yesterday ( a link to an article that I know we would have discussed at length in the past), She ignored me yet again. So, I will leave that mesage hanging in the air, and not reach out again for now.
If history is any indicator, she will eventually shoot something back my way, and If not, well, WHATEVER.

Hey buddy.  Just some follow up on your thoughts:

1) You haven't given up and you're the rock.  But is that a good thing?  If she treats you good, you're there.  If she treats you bad, you're there.  So there's no reason for her to commit to anything because you're always there.  To me, that's walking on eggshells and devaluing yourself to keep her on a pedestal...and that's what is keeping you from truly moving on.

2) You can walk away at any time, but you've chosen not to. That's your right. But again, what type of message does that send to her?

3) Why wait? Find that love and devotion now. If it's meant to work out down the road, then it will. You have to stop being a victim to her mental illness though.

Pretty much what I am thinking.

It all boils down the the Rodney Dangerfield effect. "I get no respect"

Unfortunately, I agree.  For her to see you in a different light, you actually need to be in a different light.  That means finding your own happiness outside of her and the relationship.  We can't look back buddy, the past is dead and we can't do anything about it.  It's time to move forward and heal.

i dont understand this line of thinking.


youre expecting these things from someone who isnt in a relationship with you.

from someone youre trying to convince to be in a relationship with you.

certainly, if someone is disrespecting you, or is treating you badly, or is flat out disinterested, theres no point in barking up that tree. i dont see her doing any of those things.


understanding "why she does what she does" is paramount for trying to connect with her; not something to veer away from. you may be forming unhelpful conclusions about it, though.


what she has shown, and what you refer to as "wishy washy" is simply feeling conflicted. i get that everything is more urgent and hard to decipher when youre in the middle of it, but her position, and her feelings, are fairly clear, and consistent.

she likes you. she has feelings for you.

those feelings are complicated by your history.

after a couple of months of testing the waters, nothing has really changed, and she doesnt see a path forward. when that happens, it is usually the healthiest thing to do to walk away. shes not quite there yet, but shes leaning, and moving in that direction.

its an urgent moment, OKrunch.

if your strategy is still "If history is any indicator, she will eventually shoot something back my way, and If not, well, WHATEVER.", it is going to slip away.

If I reach out, I often get ignored.
But if I don't it's "letting it slip away"
Seems like a catch 22 if you ask me.

Am I missing something here?

You say it is an urgent moment, what am I supposed to do?

I get ignored, only contacted when she wants something.
I said I get no respect because it's common human decency to not leave people on read.
To not lie to people you once loved.

If she had an iota of legitimate interest, I'd see effort from her end.
I know what that looks like, and I haven't seen it since January.

I'm not confronting her about anything..
I'm just done reaching out.
If she misses hearing from me, she'll reach out.

I'm sick of sending pleasant messages that get ignored for a day and a half, then the conversation gets ignored and forgotten halfway through.

She was happy to text me a short novel the other day when she wanted to vent and complain about the house and landlord.
AS SOON as I asked about how work and her day was going, ignore mode activated.

To continue to participate in this dynamic only communicates to her I am ok with being treated this way, and I'm not.
So I won't.

They say if you love someone let them go and if it's meant to be they will come back.

I know the lack of a reply is frustrating.

It seems like it hits a sore spot.

It's as good a reason as any, to break up with, or stop pursuing a person, if that's what you really want to do.

But is she really ignoring you? Disrespecting you? Lying to you? Those are pretty personal terms. People leave people on read all the time. Especially flighty people like her. If getting consistent replies to things you share is something you feel strongly about, or how you're gauging her interest here, then yes, you are probably barking up the wrong tree.

But you also know she has reached out pretty consistently, and what you've detailed didn't sound like she was wanting anything.

I'm not on her side here. Just trying to keep things in perspective.

You want her love back. It hurts like hell and it's frustrating not having it; or having part of it, not knowing what it means.

How many times have you said THIS is the time, you're walking away, she can take it or leave it, but by golly, you'll have your respect? You don't mean it. So why do it?

Because it feels better than sending a message that isn't replied to. Or her not flirting.

I tried to think of a better phrase: you're trying too hard. Not trying too hard the way people normally think of it. Not to tell you to "pull away". Trying too hard, to be able to listen, to see. Getting in the way of yourself.

You're expecting her to pursue you. Show "interest". In other words, treat you like a boyfriend.

That is not realistic. I dont know why you expect it, only to take it as a rejection of you when it doesnt happen. But neither is it disrespect or an indication that she's not interested.

In the way you're going about this, your feelings are clouding your ability to see her, to listen, to see the situation, to see yourself in it all. This is a hard ship to steer if you can't read the signals.

From both of your perspectives, this isn't going anywhere. But you're miles apart as to why that is, and what the implications are for each of you.

So what the hell should I do? I'm so damn confused and conflicted

right now isnt really the time or opportunity to "do" anything specific as shes concerned. there isnt really anything you can do right now. in the best of circumstances, there isnt a specific thing you can do to achieve reconciliation.

the point is more about your overall approach, staying centered, and keeping perspective. thats what will help you navigate. its what will give you clarity in the confusion. its about having a full context of the past, and how to handle the future, when things come up.

for example, youre doing some things that are virtually guaranteed to be rejected, and then seeing them as a personal rejection of you and reacting to that, or seeing them as her being wishy washy, or over compensating when they happen. that makes it hard to see her, understand where shes coming from. it makes it hard to know how to navigate. it makes it harder to distinguish between whether shes rejecting YOU, or rejecting your approach, and perhaps most importantly, why.

or for another example, youre measuring success/progress/her interest in ways that are not likely to be good indicators either way, and its confusing you. thats losing sight of both where shes coming from, and the big picture.

i wish i had a pendulum in front of us. it would be a lot easier to demonstrate. you need to harness the ability to see past your feelings, see the pendulum, see where you both are on it, and how each of you is moving, or not, on it. think of this as an extension of the breakdown of your relationship. the inability to resolve conflict and communicate. its still playing out now.

i think that the other day did some damage to your efforts (it remains to be seen how much). i think she felt cornered. from where shes coming from, if any part of her is entertaining reconciliation (and it would be a part of her, not all of her), then theres gonna be a sense of "if we were going to get back together, we already would have by now". when you reach that point, anything can be a tipping point into "it would be better for both of us if we stop pursuing this". i think things hit that point, i think thats what she was trying to do, but its not clear that she reached that point permanently. she will, though, on this trajectory, even if it takes trying 5 more times.

the only thing to really "do" there is try to lightly and deftly get past it, and hope theres enough left there to keep that spark. assuming there is (and there are signs that there is), its important not to just keep that spark, but to be able to grow it.

You set her free and truly move on.  You stop waiting for the phone to ring.  You stop trying to catch her attention.  You just walk away and find yourself outside of that relationship.

Or you can force her hand, and demand that she commit to you or move on. You already know what's going to happen, but it might be better for you in order to actually see this in a different way.

What you can't do is what you're doing now- holding onto hope that a broken relationship will magically fix itself.  It won't.  Everything you've tried has failed, but you keep doing it anyway and it's tearing you apart.  When is it enough?  When will you decide to actually heal? 

That's the only way any of this works out in your favor, regardless if you end up back together or not.

I agree Pook, my head is tender from banging it against the wall. I sent some photos from a day out with my kid the day before yesterday. No response, it was the only message I sent. Nothing yesterday either. Im not making a fuss over it, but I cant keep doing the same thing and expecting different results.
I awoke today with one (hopefuly last) gasp of anger and frustration. Being ignored is a crappy feeling, and I have a lot to offer the world, a partner and most importantly my son and myself.
Given that we have broken up before, and "recycled" (i hate that term) several times, I know what it feels like when shes interested in me, I know what it feels like when shes struggling, and I know what it feels like when I am being pushed aside for new limerance. This is what it feels like now, and I am not hanging around for that.

Its easy to feel like its your last chance when a 2nd major relationship fails at 36.

Despite the fact that she is the most interesting, sexy, amazing woman I have known, it does not make walking on eggshells, constantly making sure shes ok, propping her up, and being dispoasble and only desired when useful or lonley is exhausting.
Im not saying anything to her, and just cooling off, stopping pursuing.
My absence may change things for her, but I wont be around to know or care if it does.

I think I am going to try and move up north in the next few years. Its always been a goal of mine. I feel genuinley better there. My soul sings and the air is clear. Where i live is too crowded and developed.

dude?

youve said these things before too.

i say this affectionately: what are you doing?


its lousy to be sent such a personal thing and not respond.

at the same time, its kind of a heavy thing to send to someone who was just telling you that these sorts of things bring up painful memories, and who was/is trying to walk away from that.

so is it truly all that surprising?


you cant keep doing the same thing and be surprised by the results, either. what you keep seeing as a cold shoulder to your loving gestures is, frankly, you not reading the room.

If I'm not reading the room then what is the room saying?

I don't mean this in any negative way, but it seems like  you're telling me that I should just be okay with being ignored.

We had still been talking casually throughout the week. It's not like I sent her pictures of my actual kid, just some of the ships we visited. Her grandfather had been in the Navy so there was a mutual interest there.

I've tried to accept that she is just fleeting and comes and goes. That's made significantly more difficult when the feelings I have for her are as strong as they are. I understand her nature, but it is still frustrating.

Once upon a time she hung on my every word, I miss that, and it's hard not to try and work towards that sometimes, even if it's a subconscious effort that I realize after the fact.

When you've gone from being mutually and wildly in love with someone, and having that turn into a sometimes 25%, sometimes zero situation, frankly sucks.

This is why I found your responses confusing sometimes once removed, I'm not really sure what your advising me to do, step back or stand firm.

Additionally, if history has shown anything, stepping back is what produces results.

I guess what I mean to say is that I'm just going to try and maintain a only respond when spoken to attitude, which is admittedly difficult for me to maintain

I get how you feel, I truly do.  I was in a similar situation and at times, I still would like to work things out with my wife.  I just turned 50 so time is even less on my side.  I have accepted though that she can't love me for me, can't be there like I need her to be there, and I'll probably never be able to trust her again.

Could we eventually reconcile?  Sure.  Would it be true love where we're she's truly there for me like I'd be there for her?  Nope, that's just not possible anymore because of her mindset.  She's unstable and just not the loving person she once was.  I hate it and it still hurts because of our families, but I've made the most out of a bad situation.

Here's the thing though- I didn't give up on my wife.  Even today, if she needs help I'm there.  But I finally realized that to heal, I had to put my needs above hers and I needed to seek my own happiness in life.  I've found that and it makes all the difference in the world when dealing with my soon to be BPD ex-wife or our BPD daughter. 

In other words, I didn't let her mental illness dictate my life or who I was as a person any longer.  I'm happier than I've been in years and I focus my life on relationships that actually matter...with people who love me for me.  I was there for my aunt as my uncle died of cancer.  I helped my BPD kid turn her life around some and guiding her to a new career.  I volunteer with a prison organization because its cause I care about.  I couldn't have done any of this stuff if my only focus was my destructive wife and coddling her.

Brother, you can choose to be happy so easily...just stop the pursuit and figure out who you actually are in life.  You're still young and there's plenty of time to find the right woman, but you have to stop chasing the wrong one since she continually hurts you.

One last thing.  I get why you sent the photos of the Naval ships, etc.  I sometimes do that as well.  But ask yourself why you're sending them.  If they're for her to enjoy, then she can enjoy them without a reply.  If they're for you, then you're only opening yourself up to pain when she doesn't respond...and you know she usually doesn't respond. 

You have to resist that urge to win her back because the version of her that you're chasing no longer exists- it's like you're chasing a ghost.  The past is dead brother and we have to live in the present, please let her go and start to properly heal from her abuse.  You deserve to choose happiness and she doesn't get to deny you that.

My advice?  Block her on everything since you can't move on with the limited, casual contact.  If she shows up in person, tell her why you blocked her...it hurts too darn much when she shows affection then ghosts you.  It's not fair to keep you waiting when the same destructive cycles keep repeating over and over again.  If she won't make the choice, then you have to make it on your own.  No more abusive cycles.

no. theres nothing you detail about her that im telling you that you should be okay with.

there are, of course, certainly things about her youre going to have to accept in order to be in a relationship with her, and there are also things you may have to accept in order to court/persuade her to be in one with you.

but not being okay with any thing that shes doing is a valid reason to walk away.

you havent done that, and youre posting on the Bettering/Reversing a breakup board. in order to do that you have to understand the conflict.

i may be wrong about why she might have ignored the pictures. it may just be that shes flighty. it may be for any other reason. if you dont like it, and i dont know who would, you certainly neither have to accept it or be okay with it, and you dont need a better or worse reason to walk away from it.

if youre not going to do that, though, then doesnt it make sense to better understand why it might or might not be happening?


this may be unrealistic in any relationship (not that passion has to die), but what im trying to get across is that it is unrealistic here and now, by simple virtue of the position you are in. youre looking for signs of progress (like her making an effort, or more than she has) the likes of which arent going to come, unless, and until, she reaches that point. shes not making an effort, as you want to see it, because she doesnt currently share that goal. you arent "in this together", and shes not doing her part; its your goal to convince her to join you.

realistically, that means accepting that yeah, right now, shes not going to respond to everything, she may not even respond to most things. it may not have to remain that way, but its how things are right now.

or not accepting it, and emotionally committing to detaching. its emotionally mature not to blow up bridges, but "im just gonna do me and let her come to me" is not a strategy for improving a relationship, or detaching from one.

or just sending fewer things.


it is hard. its hard to do anything that goes against our instincts, even when our instincts arent serving us.

what that telegraphs though, is the urge to convince her back into the old relationship. that old relationship was broken. at least in part, she has mourned and grieved it, and while she has feelings for you, trying to resurrect the dead is banging your head against the wall.

*mod* Friendly reminder that on the Bettering board, we focus on positive and constructive problem-solving for members wanting to stay in a relationship. It is a given that partners wBPD exhibit challenging traits and behaviors that impact the relationship. Members are encouraged to review the "Who should post on this board" sticky above for guidelines on what content can be posted in "Bettering".

Cheers and Best Wishes!

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I am still working on bettering things.

I dont want the old relationship back. I want to build a totally new thing. I'm looking more at "reincarnation" than "ressurection" here.


I have tried to accept these things, even speaking to her about it, recently in our conversation where we discussed her "Fleeting" tendancies. I told her I understood this, and even why she is like that. She didnt balk or get angry, and agreed and accepted it. Even saying "Its not always your fault, its how I process things, Ive always wanted you to understand that"


You say she "has feelings", but it certainly doesn't feel that way. Sometimes she talks about things like I was never there. She explains things about the dogs I know very well, having lived with an raised them. She tells me things about the house like I never lived there. Its almost like a partial amnesia, its bizzare.
She doesn't seem to hold much in the way of sentimentality. THe things we did and built together seem like they belonged to a past life of hers. She doesn't seem to miss them, or me or my son.
She way do so privately, I dont know, but I feel very "less than" and forgotten.

I just wish I wold clear the hurdle of constantly thinking about If/When/How i should reach out, worrying that she will meet someone else (again) and how that will feel.
I wish I didnt care. Because it would make things easier for me, and probably better our chances of a clean slate and a new relationship.

My bad, we were in detaching for about 6 months...didn't realize that the forum had changed.

Another thing that feels kinda crappy.
When we do talk, her tone is very "professional"
it feels dismissive, or like shes just being polite to be nice.

Example

Lets say i sent her a link to some art that she would find interesting, something that would've once sparked a whole conversation.

Previous Response: "Wow, these are gorgeous, I want to try painting like that, I like the scenery and the art style, very cool!"

Current Response: "Thanks for sharing, these are beautiful"

I know that may seem trivial, and maybe im reading too much into it, but it feels crappy nonetheless.

I want to ask her if we can hang out this weekend, but it doesnt feel like i should after our last "serious" convo.
I think it needs to be her idea.

Boy oh boy this woman never ceases to confuse me. Just got a phone call out of the blue because she was having a hard day at work they did a bunch of layoffs and she was upset about it, she did not lose her job but I think it speaks volumes that she called to talk to me about it.

That shows trust.

Going to be getting some books on patients and stoicism. Every time I start freaking out on my own end, but keep things calm and quiet between us, we end up sharing a moment. But if I freak out and make it vocal, it blows up in my face. I talk about being the mountain, I need to be a mountain not a volcano

Well, after yesterday I did a lot of thinking.

I found it pretty telling that, during a difficult day at work, she decided that I was who she wanted to talk to.
She called, and opened the convo with "I probably shouldn't have bothered calling about this but..."
and went on to tell me about all the drama at work. (Layoffs)
This was relevant also because my sister in law works for the same company, so there was an additional connection there.

During this conversation, she asked about my son, and how he was doing in school. This was the first time she has asked things like this in a while. She asked about my job, and told me about the improvements her daughter has made, and that things for her were going well again.

We had a decent conversation and it was all rather pleasant, towards the end, when I could tell she was wrapping up talking, and getting ready to get off the phone, I casually mentioned that we should hang out this weekend.
She told me she is leaving for the weekend to go to a concert with her daughter and best friend.
Its a couple of hours away, and makes sense they are going the day prior and staying in the area, but its not so far that they would NEED to do this. The concert is on Sunday night.
My immediate "Negative thinking" brain's first response was "The concert is Sunday night, I doubt they are leaving on Friday night. She probably DOES have time to see you, but just doesn't want to"
Then my rational mind kicked in.
If she has her daughter for the weekend, because of the concert (this is normally her weekend off when her Ex has her daughter) then thats obviously why she isnt available all weekend.
I know thats probably overthinking it but thats where my mind went.

So, on to what i mentioned about "doing some thinking"

Here is how I see it. We have an undeniable connection, we orbit back to eachother for a reason.
As much as I will convince myself otherwise when I am in a bad mood, She has a thing for me, and cannot seem to stay far from me for long.
She trusts me enough to discuss her vulnerabilities, and still shares info on things like the dogs, the kids etc.

She never lets go of grudges, and any hurt in the past will be held on to for a long time.
That is not specific to me, I know for a fact she is this way with everyone in her life.

I have been too available, and that doesn't cause any sort of urgency on her part.

I have said a thousand times, I want her to CHOOSE me, and to be putting in mutual effort here.
I havent really even allowed her the time or space to do that.

The chaos she expierienced earlier in the year with her daughter hit her hard, and thats just getting to a point of recovery.
September is always a hard month for her because of her Grandmothers passing a few years ago.

I just need to remeber to be myself, be confident, vibrant, healthy and happy.
If that doesnt fully re-attract her, it will eventually bring me the things in life I deserve and need. Regardless of the source.
There would still be a lot to reconcile, on both ends, so a NEW relationship, not a revived old one, is PARAMOUNT to any sucsess we may enjoy.

Im just rambling now, but yea.
Trying to stay focused and positive.
I realized that I have a lot more strength in this dynamic than i had thought.
I am the master of my own road.

this is sort of what im talking about when i talk about managing reactions and feelings.

it is one thing to get bent out of sorts, vent/blow off steam, and then get back to baseline. a vital part of loving a difficult person, really.

but that reactivity sometimes drives your actions, it often drives your overall approach, and it permeates your narrative of how things are going, at least on and off.

that makes it hard to stay centered, hard to navigate, hard to cope.

this is what we call the synthesis of the emotional and logical mind: https://bpdfamily.com/content/triggering-and-mindfulness-and-wise-mind


you say this, and you may want this, but im not sure she sees this new incarnation.

there isnt a clear contrast of what the new relationship would look like vs the old one.

i dont really have the sense that you have fully considered what that contrast would look like, what was broken about the old relationship, and how, in a new relationship, it would be resolved.

getting her back may be the most immediate goal, but as ive said, if she came back tomorrow, what is to say it is going to, not only last, but thrive?


i know to some extent this was written while you were frustrated, but lets walk it through.

what does "feelings" mean in this context?

the two of you have a history together. granted, a lot of that history is complicated, but its a long history, that involved at one time being engaged. she makes effort to talk to you, to see you, to share with you. she has/had sex with you.

it would be hard to look at that and call it a complete lack of interest.

it is not the same as saying she wants to pursue a relationship. it doesnt mean she wakes up thinking about how to repair the relationship or show interest. she is not at that point. that will come later, if it comes.

it means "something is there", no more, no less. that something may only mean so much, but so long as "something is there", you have something to work with.


remember 4 things:

1. she is flighty in general
2. things may have changed. her interests may have changed. you may need to find new things to connect over.
3. it is possible shes avoiding anything emotionally charged, anything that reminds her of the old relationship, or that shes trying not to send "relationship" signals.
4. if something is bringing you bad results or no results, do less of it

any of those things, or any combination of those things may be the case.

when it feels crappy, it will help to step back, and rather than see it as a wholesale rejection of you, or a lack of interest, try to see it as just one approach that isnt working, or one that isnt going to work in the current circumstances.


yes. all things that are important to remind yourself of.

and as long as its the case, the path to reconciliation may exist. but it isnt a permanent, stable solution, nor is it your goal.


maybe a little, but i would not, at this point, expect any sort of urgency on her part. being less available will not fundamentally change anything.


yes. this is why i say it is unrealistic to expect, at this point. youre looking for/at indicators that arent going to be there right now, when you, by and large, have all the indicators you need.


all true.

trust that in a matter of time, you may feel discouraged again. flexing and developing that Wisemind will not only help you to cope when it does, but it will help you navigate at large.

A NEW relationship would deal with our past, and leave it there.
It would be about bettering ourselves, with eachothers help, AFTER we've done what we need to do to better ourselves by ourselves.
there needs to be rebuilt trust, reignited passion, and a true TEAM mentality.

As an aside, We have had some pleasant conversation today.

I followed up asking how the mess at work was.
Lots of jokes, and GIF's. Feels like old convos...

Trying not to let that get any hopes up, or make me see things that arent there though.
But it is refreshing.

No worries, it was just a friendly reminder that each forum comes with its own culture and on bettering the rules are bit more restricted to protect the members participating constructively.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

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Did you have any suspicion that she had BPD (traits/behaviors/diagnosis/whatever) before or early on in dating her? Sorry -- can't recall if you mentioned that before.

If this is something that has become more clear to you after being in a relationship with her, then I'll offer some thoughts on your comment in bold above.

Realizing over time that "it looks like BPD" might be similar to a partner having to start using a wheelchair midway through the relationship.

It didn't start out that way -- you assumed pretty rightly that both of you could walk and hike and climb together -- but things have changed. She can't use her legs any more. It isn't about what anybody wants to do, it's that she can't, and you can't go back to the way things used to be. You can still have the relationship but there are things she can't do.

If BPD is at play for her, it might be worth thinking of "dealing with the past" as "getting out of the wheelchair and walking" for her. I'd assume she can't -- or, likely, not in the way you hope for.

If having a fresh start in a new relationship is somehow contingent on her dealing with the past, I don't know that it can happen. If it were me, I might consciously choose to change my mindset away from "if she can't deal with our past then we can't have a new relationship" more towards "given her limitations, how can I on my end start something new -- can I accept her limitations and integrate them into this new thing". Less hoping she can get out of the wheelchair and walk, if that makes sense.

Food for thought...

Glad you had some chill, low-key, low-intensity communication with her. That is money in the bank.

respectfully:

"it would be better, i PROMISE".

that is three sentences not detailing a plan for a relationship, just stating what would be nice. what does bettering yourselves look like, and what is happening to achieve it? how is trust going to be rebuilt? how is any of this going to be accomplished?

this is not homework, mind you. there is no right or wrong answer, no grade, no due date.

but, boy, is it pivotal when it comes to whatever you want to do in the end, really.

long term relationships, whether they involve bpd or not, generally break down over time, over unresolved conflict. it may end over something superficial that seemingly has nothing to do with these differences, or it may end over someones last straw, or it may self perpetuate for months or years, or it may end amicably because the two recognize these differences and part ways. there are zero to 800 ways that relationships end, but within long term relationships, unresolved conflict breaks them down over time.


it looks like within that first year, things got complicated. this is a very typical timeline for a couple, by the way.

there was a lot that happened as things broke down. the incident where she kicked you and your son out. the breakup, and rebound. the pregnancy and termination. the violent incident. a lot of damage in that time. on top of that, the pressures and the fall out involving loved ones knowing about it all. there have been multiple makeup/breakup cycles which, generally do more damage to a relationship over time.

what follows looks pretty similar to where things are today. there was an ultimatum. more arguments about the status of the relationship. struggles with how much/how little to contact her.

these arent things you have to figure out this moment, when your primary goal is just to reconcile in the first place. but you might think of it all as an extension of the old relationship conflict.

something was/is broken (or at least "not working properly"). what is it (is it more than one thing?)? is it resolvable/fixable? if so, what will it take? is it something that one person can accomplish, or at least lead the effort in?

while finding the answers to these things may not accomplish reconciliation, its going to ultimately be necessary to be on the same page about these things, both to reconcile, and to make it stick.

I didnt do anything that would constitute an ultimatum in my opinion.

shes back in ignore mode, and I am not going to bother her while shes "away" for the weekend.

If she's interested or misses me, she will make that known.
If not, then im not going to try and convince her to think differently, no profit to be had there.

Huge waves of energy and emotion today.
Friday night as well.

We havent spoken in a cople days, I am just letting things sit for the time being.

OKrunch,

Communication can be both explicit and implicit, the latter more often telegraphed by reactions and emotions. I could be wrong, but I feel that you're implicitly telegraphing "She needs to do x, and if she does, I'll react y." At the end of the day, and no matter how you disagree with what she does or how she reacts, she's an independent entity and person, free to choose what she does, no matter how you, I or anybody here judges it.

You wanted to be on the Bettering Board for feedback. Have you looked at the tools in the Lessons, or even the top level Tools in the green pull down tabs at the top of the site? SET? Boundaries? Wisemind?

It looks to me like you're treading water here which might be contributing to those huge waves of emotion. That doesn't seem helpful to you to move forward on progress.

Being the rock or mountain feels protective, and the defensive strategy may be helpful to you in the short term, but it's also intransigent.

I have looked at some of those things recently, yes.
If not a defensive appraoch? Then what?

We had talked a bit on Friday and the convo dropped off dead (She stopped responding)
I didnt reach out all weekend, then yesterday I ask her how the concert went.
She waited a few hours and we had a brief convo about how the concert was good, but she was wiped from lack of sleep.
That transitioned into talking about the Colorado trip we did back in 2020.
I then said "We should chill soon, maybe the weekend after next, when we don't have the kids?"
and she never replied.

So I haven't reached out all day today.
It feels like playing Minesweeper.
We will have decent conversations, and then she goes cold.
I never know when to reach back out, or at all.

Im getting very frustrated.
I seem to get opposing advice here, and I often find it cryptic.
Some of you tell me to leave it alone, others say don't give up, while still others seem to speak in riddles and expect me to glean some meaning, like Yoda speaking to Luke.

Shame on me for not giving up on someone who has said "I love that you don't quit on me like everyone else".

Shes chatty one day, sending photos of her daughter and the dogs, then the next shes mean, and others shes apologetic, while still others (and this mostly lately) she is just cold, aloof and ignores me for days on end.

SO CONFUSED & LOST.

Doesn't help that in the times we werent talking, and I was dating others, none of them even begin to compare mentally, physically, or spiritually.

I am trying to be better, Excercise, diet, more reading, trying to be my best. My most attractive.
But damn, this sure can get really freakin discouraging.

Welp, we had a bit of a blowout. She was super rude and mean, and I basically told her to EFF off.

Im done being the backup booty call when shes single.
Shes probably dating someone now, so I can be treated like crap again.

Honestly, you can delete all my threads if you want.

Im done.

I'm very sorry that this is not playing out as you had hoped.  I do hope that you can see the pattern here and you can do something different to avoid it in the future.  I'm not judging, mind you; I just hate seeing you hurt over and over again. 

The only person that can break this pattern is you, and you do that by learning how to break the co-dependency.

I am rooting for you so hard brother!

Well, that is what happens when I blindly devote myself to somebody who I know uses people and then cast them aside when they're done.
Exactly as my therapist had said I was just being used because she was lonely in between partners.
She goes through men like toilet paper

Moved back over to detaching