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I don't see many people write about people pleasing here, yet there's a lot of codependence instilled when your FOO has personality disorders. It seems like people pleasing is entwined with codependence.

People pleasing to me means not being rooted in self. It's focusing on what other people want or expect or need instead of looking at a situation from my perspective, full stop. I'm sure there are better ways to describe it.

Sometimes when I'm in a social/professional situation, like a conference I can sometimes feel my self ... move around. Does that make sense? I feel rooted in who I am and it's not like I'm a chameleon. But when certain personalities get going I will go along, even if my instinct is to check in or step away. It's almost like I can't even take the small moment required to make sure I'm ok. I work with good people and nothing bad is happening, it's more about being in the presence of people who come across as very certain, and then letting those personalities dominate.

If there is something to disagree about, sometimes I don't even recognize it because it's almost like I'm observing. I don't always know what I even think in that moment. I respect people who seem to be checking in with themselves, doing what is true for them, even in the smallest way.

I'm trying to notice the difference between a strong personality that seems appealing because of FOO wiring, in which navigating narcissism and control and structure meant surviving, compared to people with a strong sense of self who are simply being themselves and having opinions.

Being able to blend into the background and surrender my sense of self for a strong personality is so wired into me. I'm so used to handling a lot that I don't always know how to stop and check in and make sure I'm being myself.

I wish I could be a little more present and aware, and brave, I guess.

I got thinking about emotional labor a while back because of a situation with a professional colleague. I got wondering whether he needed me to help him feel ok because I was a woman, a people pleaser, or both? Would he have asked someone without those qualities to do the same?

Does anyone else with FOO riddled with personality disorders struggle relate to this?

I'm learning there are so many kind, compassionate ways to have boundaries. "Hey, it sounds like you're going through something. Do you have someone you can talk to about this?" Meaning, someone other than me.

I guess I'm trying to understand people pleasing a bit better, and what other people's experiences are with it, and letting go of the pathologic part without becoming an @ssh0l3  lol

Your last line…”without being an a$$hole,” is dead on. I am trying to be more assertive, after a lifetime of fawn responses due to disorder in my FOO. The line between the two positions is really blurry. I end up apologizing a lot. I have a good therapist who repeatedly tells me that anger needs to have an expression. She has recommended stream-of-consciousness journaling, when my feeling run high. I helps me calm down, then my thinking brain has a chance to make decisions. My therapist also admitted that her journaling goes into high gear after visits with her FOO.

 :love-it:

I'm going to jump on this thread as "people pleasing" traits have also been percolating at the back of my mind occasionally. This seems like a great thread to ponder and reflect, and learn from each other.  It's a really great topic.

During my career it felt good when people trusted me enough to open up when they needed to.  I thought "I must be doing something right for people to trust me".  Then a few years ago, I started to "think" about why people I hardly knew would open up to me about something in the grocery store over the lettuce. Enter critical thinking, an odd feeling, and wondering "am I some kind of magnet for other people's problems"?  I don't really want to hear all their stuff, but - enter people pleasing - I listen and validate and can't just turn them away if they're feeling that bad.  But still, something felt off as it was just happening too much with people who were oversharing.

I love your line:  "do you have someone you can talk to about this?" It's beauty is in it's obvious simplicity, while still being kind.

So why didn't I think of that? 

...because I was trained to look after somebody else's feelings?  Is that my "box"?  Looking after other people, and not myself?  Time to escape from that box and start exploring outside of the box.

This.  This. This.

After all, to do anything other than focus on what other people want (according to the Bible of Mom) was selfish, and I really did not want to be selfish. So I've started to be more curious about the various reasons for this.

My "moving around" LNL, do you mean making yourself "fit in" with different people, or groups? 

I am definitely more curious about my need to please others to feel good about myself.  I think my growth in the last few years has been recognizing that I will never be able to meet my mother's needs, accepting that she sees me as a disappointment because I'm not there 24/7 to cater to her needs, being ok with that, but still acknowledging that I am a good person.  In the words of my T, "I am enough".  I used to believe that people pleasing was a positive attribute because I was so uncomfortable with not being able to help someone. It made me feel like a failure.  But not all people can be helped.  And now I see that sometimes I have to also help myself.

Yes, I can relate to this. It seems I am more aware of other people's needs and feelings than people who are not raised like me. I don't know if it's good or being too nice.

My H was not raised in a family like mine. I notice if he wants to do something or wants something- he just goes for it. For me, I am more reticent- like waiting for persmission to be able to have or do something I want.

Too much of "going for what you want" could go to the point of being inconsiderate, but too little is people pleasing/co-dependency.

Sometimes it seems as if he's too little aware of other people's feelings but then, maybe it's me being overly concerned? I don't know. I just notice he doesn't seem to have this guilt/fear, waiting for persmission approach that I have.


It's with other people too. Like a co-worker can get stressed or grouchy and snap at me and I forget about it because most of the time, we get along fine,  but I can't even bring myself to do this, and if I did, I'd feel badly about it for hours. At work, I tend to be the "motherly" smooth things over between people and help mentor new younger employees.

I know this must come from having to be an emotional caretaker for BPD mother in the family and also if she knows we want something, her stance is to deny it and shame us for it. So wanting something and saying that is not easy. I still feel I need to wait until "permitted" or offered something. My BPD mother could say and do anything and it was somehow looked over but for us, even a small transgression could be as if it was the crime of the century.

I think most of us who were raised as people pleasers can relate to how we keep finding that being a people pleaser to the wrong people is enabling and damaging to our well being. I was a people pleaser for most of my life to people who were similar to my disordered family members, and have many friendships and relationships that ended over my not having healthy boundaries with people. I still find myself fantasizing about rescuing people desperately in need of help and getting all kinds of accolades for doing so. For many years, I found people who were emotionally healthy to be uninteresting. I am now working on enjoying the moment with people and learning to be a healthy friend. The healthier friends I now have, regularly give me feedback that mostly helps me to be a happier person and a better friend. The disordered people who I have enabled really dislike me now as I am no longer a source of supply for their damaged personalities.

   :wee: Oh Zachira.  This made me laugh.

There's a certain dry humour there. 

I love this thread as I think and journal a lot about this. There are a lot of things that play into people pleasing. First borns, particularly first born women, regardless of other dynamics are likely to have people pleasing tendencies.  Having a FOO  that values “ the family” or prioritizes the needs of a specific member of the family , thereby promoting self sacrifice, and prioritizing  the social harmony of the family  over self-interest. It can set us up to  develop into adults who are overly people pleasing, guilt ridden and unable to prioritize or own needs or speak up for ourselves .

Professionally, this played out for me, in being conflict averse and unable to speak up in certain circumstances. (Proud to say I overcame most of that). I remember one of my first meetings with executive peers, when I was the new person and the only woman in the room with some very assertive male execs. I had a lot to say on a topic and couldn’t seem to find a pause in the discourse to express myself, so I raised my hand waiting for permission to speak… one of them ( a very nice guy) paused looked at me and said why are you raising your hand, just speak up.  They all got a chuckle, not in a mean way, at my expense. I realized that I needed to be more assertive and not wait for permission to speak and that speaking up and sharing alternate view points was valuable.

Right now, I am at an interesting cross roads. Over the 15 years I have been a caregiver for my parents, my two children have become adults and become independent financially. Since retiring, I no longer carry all the responsibility of my job and all the staff and physicians depending on me. The night my mom died last week my son said to me “Mom, for the first time in a long time, you don’t have anyone depending on you to take care of them,  but yourself ( not counting my new puppy and husband LOL). I recognize that is a huge change for me and it means really digging into, who I am, and who I want to be in this world for my next chapter, without having to please my parents or sister.  Deep down I will always be a people pleaser, but a lot of my work in therapy has been about letting of it. I have come a long way, but know there is still work in this journey.

OS, what does being an a$$hole mean to you specifically? Like you say, the line is blurry. But do you feel you have a grasp on what exactly defines "a$$hole" behavior? I'm not sure I do for me.

When I try war gaming responses to situations where I want to be assertive, my husband will give me feedback that maybe my suggested approach either misses the mark or is a bit harsh. These are typically new things I'm trying out so I run them by him. So for example, if my natural instinct is to be a people pleaser, and I want to overcome that, I seem to gravitate to something that isn't aggressive but also isn't necessarily nice. I'm beginning to think that there is "not necessarily nice" which is ok, maybe an average response, but is a bit of a kung fu chop. And then there is assertive, which is much more skilled, where both people feel respected even though we might not agree.


Methuen, I'm curious about your example of people pleasing. The example you give is about not shutting someone down. Or listening more than you want. Is it important that you do that in a kind way? If so, how important it that? Do you feel anger when you listen and don't want to?

Do you see people pleasing appearing in other ways in other parts of your life? I have the "listening too well" habit. Would most people say that you are an excellent listener, and do you see that as part of people pleasing? Would your family describe you as a people pleaser? Would your colleagues say the same?

I'm kind of swinging on a pendulum at the moment. I'll recognize that I'm people pleasing and then I'll swing the other way. Neither feel good.


I don't know if it's exactly "fit in" the way, say, a teen tries to fit in with a group. It's more about situational dynamics where I notice that I seem to not have a strong opinion. If it's socially awkward to not have an opinion, I'll take one in order to smooth things over for myself.

 

Something I'm working through is the myth or narrative that "people pleasing" = "good person" which is not necessarily true. And the opposite of "people pleasing" is not "self-centered."

zachira, do you think that people pleasing is about having porous boundaries?



This is such a succinct way to spell out the downsides of how we were raised. I know I've got better with age and practice. I wish I felt more confident in the moment in changing some of these tendencies.


Would it be different for you if someone in that meeting didn't want you there?


I sense the same for me. What is it about people pleasing that you think will always be there for you?

People Pleasing...

Everyone on this board who answers others questions is a people pleaser.  I personally think every single person who has visited this board (with the sole exception for the self-aware psychopath who visited last year who wanted to understand the BPD relationship dynamic) is a 'people pleaser'.  If you are here, you are a people pleaser.

Volunteers are 'people pleasers'.

Being a people pleaser, when done in moderation, is a very good thing as it helps out those in need.

However, if it becomes excessive with appeasing, being a doormat, being a sponge for someone else's abuse, this is when it becomes toxic and dysfunctional.  I have learned that a lack of healthy boundaries allows the acts of people pleasing to become this unhealthy.  Personally I am working on this aspect - I've set up healthy boundaries, and my relationship with my undiagnosed wife is greatly improved.

If it impacts your quality of life, it is too much.  However, if you find it rewarding, and it fills your cup, then it is good.  For each person, the level of pleasing people which is healthy is different for each individual person.

From Google AI:

I made 'bold' the ones that would affect your perception of "Sometimes when I'm in a social/professional situation, like a conference I can sometimes feel my self ... move around."

A lot of that sounds like codependent behavior too, and people pleasing is a trait of being codependent.

How 'deep' do you want to go down this 'rabbit hole' of being a 'people pleaser'?

Being a 'people pleaser' enables BPD and other cluster B personalities to take advantage of you.

If you have a therapist, I think this would be a good topic to do a deep dive on with them.

Take care with self-care.

I have made progress on some of these traits:

Before 12 steps co-dependency work, this is where I would be-

Signs of people-pleasing include:
+Putting others' needs ahead of their own
+Altering their personality around others
+Finding it difficult to say "no"
+Agreeing to something they don't want to do
+Accepting projects with unrealistic deadlines
+Frequently apologizing for things they have no control over

Now, I'd consider these to be the main ones:

Signs of people-pleasing include:
+Putting others' needs ahead of their own- (yes but not as much).
+Altering their personality around others
+Finding it difficult to say "no" (yes but not as much)
+Agreeing to something they don't want to do (yes but not as much)
+Accepting projects with unrealistic deadlines
+Frequently apologizing for things they have no control over

The personality one- that's an interesting one and I can trace it back to the teen years. I think all teens are insecure and do this to some extent but for me, my friends were the main source of affirmation that I had and so I felt I needed to do this or they woudn't like me.

I also feared that they'd discover the "truth" about my mother and if they did- they would not like me. But her behavior is not my fault. Still, I had this fear.

This kind of thing continued into adulthood until I could see it for what it was- people pleasing and fear of not being liked. I do think we need to maintain a level of respectful behavior towards people no matter how we feel about them, but likely we won't "like" everyone we meet and vice versa.

Altruism, kindness, generosity -- these to me are not people pleasing.

When I do something at the expense of what I want or what is good for me, that is people pleasing.

"Altruism, kindness, generosity -- these to me are not people pleasing."  Why?

When I am kind and generous with others with altruistic intent, I find it to be quite rewarding, as most people are quite grateful and appreciative - in other words, I would presume (those that have not thanked me) these people are pleased with what I am doing - people pleasing.  I would like to think that each one of us who posts here to help others is doing the same - just like what I am doing here.  I consider what I am writing and sharing with this group to be mostly pleasing them, and that includes (but not limited to) both you LnL and also you NW.

Knowing what my kindness and generosity brings to others, the mere knowledge that it helped someone else out, is enough 'reward' for me as it makes me 'smile' on the inside.  It is so rewarding, I occasionally forego sleep (something that is good for me) and pay attention to other things that need my attention.  How is this not people pleasing?

I normally would not call attention to this (it's prideful, I prefer to be humble), but since it is the topic at hand, I'm saying it.  I am trying to help out others with my perspective, my experience, so others will be less burdened and better off and can learn from my mistakes, just as I have learned from the mistakes of others.

Thoughts?

In response to the question about people pleasing and boundaries, I do think people pleasing is all about having unhealthy boundaries. I often ask myself why did I do all kinds of things for people who did not appreciate me at all, especially listening to people for hours on end, without their ever asking anything about me and their getting mad when I started to volunteer any information about how I was feeling and doing. I have closely examined my need for family and how I supported the false family narratives so I could be a part of the family. I am now low contact and no contact with most of my relatives, though I have been pleasantly surprised by the few I am able to have healthier and evolving relationships with.
I also think that healthy relationships are about having boundaries. I am a work in progress learning how to have healthy boundaries with everybody. This makes sense as in my FOO and extended family, healthy boundaries did not exist for the most part. The boundaries that do exist support the multigenerational narratives that some people are perfect despite being narcissistic and abusive, and that other people are the worst people in the world, no matter how much they sacrifice to please the family. I went to the big celebration of life of a family member recently. I was ignored by a lot of family members and somehow okay with that. I kept the focus on the positive, that there are a few family members and long time family friends, that I do want to have in my life.

I'm not referring to people pleasing in its positive form, that's all.

People pleasing may have those elements, I am talking about the aspects that come from habits learning in a dysfunctional family.

Do you see the difference?

Define people pleasing however you prefer. My purpose here is to understand and learn from the limitations where I struggle to be authentic, doing things at my expense.

 I see it as all strengths, when overused, can become a weakness. Altruism, kindness and generosity are all strengths. When we people please to the point of neglecting our own needs for others, perhaps that is when it becomes a weakness.

For me, it’s been a journey. First, I needed to believe that my needs were as important as others and that I was worthy. In my FOO, “Being a good sister” was part of how I earned my parents approval. I know now that I took it to an extreme. For so long they excused my sister’s behavior, or told me to be the bigger person. But they both struggled with her too, and eventually they each separately encouraged me to focus on myself and not try to appease her.., it was just pretty deeply engrained in me. And it is where my work continues. Even this week, my adult children had different ideas about how to our very short time together this weekend, and I was trying to make both of them happy. At a certain point, I told  my daughter, what I need is for the 4 of us to be together, this was planned months ago and I still want to do it, so please just go along with the plan. But that was really hard for me to do.

Mommydoc - substitute my mother for your sister and it's the same message.

I have a "report" from when I was in preschool and they give parents a summary of the child's developmental skills. It says I was telling them about my stuffed animals at home and how I have to be "very very good" - and then said the animals have to be very very good so even by 3 or 4 I learned that.

I was so afraid of being angry at anyone. I felt I had to be nice all the time. In college, I was dating a guy and he purposely tried to make me angry at him. I asked him why and he said it felt annoying and fake that I was always trying to be too nice. Wow, he picked up on the co-dependency. We think that being people pleasing will make others like us but being "too nice" actually turns people off in a way. That relationship didn't last but I still recall that comment.

Hi LnL,

It's been some time since I posted here, but I wanted to share a beautiful find I had recently, it's a book called : The Courage to be disliked.

I've had a lot of thoughts on people pleasing, assertion, boundaries... For me, people pleasing is a gesture done in exchange for love or external validation that I am/was unable to provide to myself. The problem is not the gesture itself, but the "hidden" objective behind the gesture.

When one decides to make a gesture out of love, truly altruisticly, one feel centered within one self...this is not people pleasing. It is important for us, as humans, as a social animal, to feel that we are contributing to society, to our community, to our family, to the lives of people we love. Contributing by being kind of someone else, as long as it is done from a place of love and genuine kindness, is not people pleasing.

Narcissists are interested in "people pleasers" because people pleasers lack the self worth and capacity to self regulate, they lack the inner capacity to provide themselves with the validation they crave, which makes them invaluable targets for narcissistic abuse. A narcissist will not be interested in somehow that is kind for the sake of being kind, I can guarantee that...because this person is feeling whole, which renders her less vulnerable to narcissistic abuse.

Being an observer is not a bad thing. Being conflict avoidant is not a bad thing either, this has many benefits actually, and works wonders for self preservation. I understand being swayed form one opinion to the next when confronted with very opinionated and confident people... But consider that this might not stems from your people pleaser tendencies, nor even from a lack of confidence... Maybe you are just naturally a more open person, meaning you'd score very high on openness.

Openness is NOT a bad thing, on the contrary, it gives you the ability to experience multiple ideas, and navigate them philosophially to find the one that resonates the most with your inner self .. it might sometimes feel like a lack of self and people pleasing, but it isn't. It's just a way to experience life in a very open manner... I personally thing being high on openness means more opportunities for self growth...

Now, it is different if what you are feeling is inadequacy, competition and a desire to be seen and validated from those people. If what is keeping you from talking out is this, then yes, it would be people pleasing... The objective then would be to provide those needs for yourself...I highly recommend "The courage to be disliked"... It is very succinct, an easy read, but it might just change your life.

I wanted to clarify, concerning the narcissistic abuse, that the person that kind for the sake of kindness, just that is able to provide themselves with their own inner validation, without needing external validation, is less interesting to a real narcissist because they won't give in to the power dynamic that the narcissist craves... While someone who is being kind in an effort to be validated externally, or to feel better about themselves, might start feeling resentment, and might give in to the power dynamic that the narcissist craves... In that kind of relationships (narcissist codepensant) both people are craving the same thing and unconsciously fighting for power, they are just using different tools.

Someone who is kind, without being "a people pleaser" will simply not give in to this power dynamic...

This is my view on people pleasing today... Might change as I keep discovering myself, but so far, this view has been the most helpful to me in my self-discovery journey.

Riv3rWOlf,
So good to hear from you. You have acquired a lot of wisdom through lots of soul searching and finding ways to understand the make up of the core of the people you interact with.
I have always valued authentic kindness and people who are comfortable in their own skin. The narcissists just hate me and now more than ever because they get it right away that I am not easy to manipulate and be fooled by their false selves as I become more comfortable with myself and healthy intimate relationships. I still am working on not being so bothered by being disliked while trying to be more compassionate towards myself which makes it easier to be kinder to others because it genuinely reflects how I feel inside. I have put your book on my list of must reads.

Doing 12 step work- one of the key points I learned was to tune into my own feelings- and resentment was something to look at. If I was doing something "nice" but feeling resentment- that is people pleasing, co-dependency. If I didn't feel resentment- that was a genuine gesture of being nice.

It's not always easy to discern, more gray than black or white. We don't live on an island. There are things we do to get along with people that we don't always want to do.

The distinction is- are we willing to do it. I might not want to clean the kitchen but if I want a clean kitchen- I am willing to do it.

I might not want to do a task at work but if it's part of my job and I want to keep my job- I am willing to do it.

But if it's an absolute "no"- I do not want to do something but say "yes" and do it anyway- then there will be resentment. What is the reason for the "yes"? For me, it's been to avoid the person being angry.

It's not only narcisists who exploit people pleasers but employers as well. I have begun to be more aware of this at work recently.  With co-workers, it's reciprocal- we help each other - but it's easier for a supervisor to take advantage of someone who is a people pleaser.

People pleasing goes much further than doing things, it's a whole way of being, a camouflage one will keep to keep one safe in a world they consider unsafe.

Once one finally accepts to look at others people as camarades, instead of ennemies or competition, it becomes easier to hold boundaries and to become authentic. It's more about who we are in front of other, than what we do for them. What we do and keep saying yes too, might be a symptom, but generally speaking, the mindset being is what matter the most, and the objective of the action.

Resentment is a complex feeling one can feel even when they are not in a people pleasing state, so this is not what I personally use as an indicator.

I wouldn't consider cleaning a kitchen and doing tasks at work people pleasing. I would, however, consider it people pleasing if someone accepted to do something unethical to keep the approbation of their boss, under the pretext that they don't want to lose their job. If they kept themselves unhappy, and powerless, out of fear.

We all have and make choices. People pleasing is simply another way to live in a victim-like state, hidden from the rest of the world.

 I have noticed a shift for me as I become less people pleasing. I want to do a good job at work- that is my value system- not people pleasing- but it's my co-dependent tendencies that an exploitative superior can take advantage of. I tend to be a "team player" while others are out for themselves. Neither is entirely wrong- there needs to be a balance- not too much of one or the other.

One can only be true to themselves.

It doesn't matter how other people around behave, at some point, I believe one stops noticing when they are in line with their own inner self.

The past few weeks, I've witnessed people saying things that would have made me doubt myself before, and this time around, I simply didn't mind, I've actually realised it way later, how it could have come across, but I didn't even feel like they were trying to hurt me or anything. People can say and do what they want, it's their scene. I am only responsible for myself and my own reaction. I can choose to see someone trying to hurt me, or I can choose to focus on something else... Because I have no idea what they were thinking when they said the thing in question, and I don't even know if it truly was said in an effort to hurt me or not.

Saying things like "everyone is out of themselves" outline a mindset in which you don't trust people around you at work. What I am saying is : it doesn't matter what others do, and who they choose to be around us.. when one is radically authentic, the world tend to autocorrect around them.

You can do your tasks, and still be a team player without feeling like people will take advantage of it, and without even feeling resentment when it appears it might be the case... It all depends on your own viewpoint. How you feel is up to you, not up to them.

Like zachira said, it's nice to hear from you again Riv3rW0lf. I've thought about you and wondered how you were doing  :hug:



This so beautifully summarizes what I have been trying to work through. It could not have come at a better time.


And this too.

I think this has been a missing piece for me in understanding something. A professional colleague has been very tricky for me. His behavior and my response is in part what prompted me to think about people pleasing. I came back from a conference where I saw him and I'm not impressed with how I handled things but this insight you shared helped me make sense of it.

I was inauthentic and conflict avoidant when I saw him. I had been quietly pulling back from behaviors I began to realize were rooted in weak boundaries. Sometimes he interpreted this as me being upset with him. Yet, he would chose to address this in public spaces where it was socially chaotic. What would I say as someone being authentic?

For example, we were in a busy lobby. He was chatting with a group of people, and I was walking with a group of people. He called out to me and asked if I was offended by something he said. My husband pointed out that this way of addressing a beef (for lack of a better word) narrowed my options in how I could respond. I had one of the biggest presentations of my career happening, I was jet lagged and travel weary, it was socially taxing and highly stimulating. He could have texted me to say "Hey can we talk" or "Have I said anything to show disrespect, etc." or "Do you have some time to grab a quick coffee?" Instead it was grabbing my jacket as I passed through a crowded hallway with colleagues as we headed to our seats.

I guess what I'm understanding in the context of awkward moments like this when I can sense myself trying to protect something, is that people pleasing behaviors can be a way to get through a rough patch. It wasn't exactly that I was unsafe, it was more that something inauthentic was masking as authentic, and my choices were limited. If I shout at you across the room, "Are you mad at me?" it's not exactly a set up for meaningful discussion. So then something that lacks meaning comes back.

It is similar with my stepdaughter. It could be that it's harder to be authentic with people who may not have the capacity for authenticity. It might be easier in the moment to be authentic. After things have gone on for a while, getting back to that authenticity is not so easy, at least not without some emotional labor.

I admired a therapist I had for her insight into situations that seemed so complex for me. If I were to share with her the situation with this colleague, her response (I'm guessing) would be to assess that he wasn't really asking to resolve things, he was simply trying to feel better, and that is not my job.

I don't know if that makes sense. Your insight makes me realize that people pleasing as a way to camouflage can be a safety move. It can be a form of authenticity to recognize that the stove seems hot and it is not my job to explain why I'm not touching it.

I have done it as a protective move too. I don't want to show someone my authentic self. I think the motivation is a key to if it's being co-dependent or strategic. If the motivation is fear of not being liked, or wanting to be liked, and it's a betrayal of self- that is co-dependency.

If it's strategic- I am in control of what I want to reveal to you- that could also be being authentic to yourself- if not to the other person. As long as you don't cross the line into being dishonest or manipulative, I think it's a protective strategy. "You are my co-worker and I don't want to get into this issue: at a work conference, or, "I don't want to be that close to my co-worker, just close enough to have a working relationship"

Yes, I wouldn't call it people pleasing if it is a strategic move done to remain centered as much as possible in a stressful moment.

Our personalities are very complex, and we tend to hold ourselves to a very high standard... But this standard often lacks the complexity it needs to be whole. It's ok to hide ourselves to certain people, and yes, it is still being authentic : to ourselves. We are the only ones we should aim to be completely authentic with, because at the end of the day, you are the only one who will be living with your choices. As long as you did what felt right for you in that moment, then it is all that matters.

I am not sure what you felt at that moment when he called you across the room and why it made you doubt yourself?

For what it is worth, I agree with your therapist... My "centered" answer likely would have been something like : "This is not the time nor the place for this kind of discussion. See you later."

This would have been me sending him back his energy with a mirror, a wall of sort, while offering a hand with that "seeing you later", i.e. I am not upset but I won't carry that stress for you right now.

It does all come down to a separation of tasks... This was his move. He decided to come at you at a bad moment, likely indeed looking to make himself feel better... In a public setting, the only possible answers feel like : "no it's fine !"

But the key here is to remain true to yourself. There are many options... One just have to stop caring what others will think... Because what others will think is simply not in one's own power...

I do think you would enjoy the book I mentioned... It does discuss work relationships as well, and task separation. It is such a strong yet short read... Well worth your time if you are looking into task separation and authenticity. Maybe you already know all that is written there, in which case, it's a good reminder, and a good way to remain connected to this knowledge by rereading passages once in a while to center ourselves.

So.. of you want to dive deeper, I am curious about what was your reaction to your colleague approach, and why you doubted it?

I wanted to feel rooted in myself and authentic. I knew there would be a waffle on my part and a tendency deflate the conflict instead of being direct. I could have said a lot of things but I think I was in self-preservation mode, in part because I didn't want to add any stress because I was trying to manage already. I was trying to take care of myself in two ways that kind of conflicted with each other: be authentic and be safe.

When he called across the room, I feigned some ignorance about what he was talking about.


I remember some posts we shared a while back when I was working through anger about SD26 and I wonder if our histories with anger and how we express that anger makes confrontation different for us? I would like to be more like what I imagine you do. I have been raised to repress repress repress repress and then on top of that, be gracious. So push down anger then act totally the opposite. I feel like being trained to be gracious has really  :cursing:ed me up in life.



I ordered it  |iiii


I don't really know. I think like you said I had high standards. I wanted to put the interaction to rest without worrying whether he felt ok. I knew he would say something but I didn't know what or when. I also didn't want to be direct then feel like I had to take care of him. I wanted to feel authentic and not smooth things over, and couldn't quite make that happen for myself. I chose to feel safe. Until you wrote what you did, I was in the process of beating myself up for not being stronger. Given what else was going on in the moment, with this new perspective, I can forgive myself for choosing safety. I'm still learning and practicing, and trying to understand.

This colleague is affable, personable on the surface, but does not have good boundaries. He tells women he has a "flirtatious personality," yet I sense he is angry and insecure, not a covert narcissist necessarily although maybe so, it's hard to tell. He reads a room and sizes it up, then acts based on how the winds are blowing, so I suspect maybe there is a similar wound there to mine but he handles it a different way.

Reading a sample of the book, another way I could look at it is that I created a state of anxiety for myself by anticipating conflict so I could stay stuck, choosing to feel safe versus feeling authentic.

Beautifully put. And I wand to stress that this is not, in anyway, wrong or weak or anything the like. I personally consider that this phrasing though, this way of looking at things : it reels back all the power back in. It is not easy, habits are hard to change, but in way at least, you get your very own choice back, and you deserve to have a choice.

I am glad my comment helped you. But again, really, you helped yourself with it... You could have just as easily decided I was wrong and continue beating yourself up, but this is not who you are. You strike me as an open person, always willing to look within and dive deeper, on a never-ending journey of self healing and self growth. You know, I now really do believe there is a way out of those traumatized parts that get triggered into control of our self... A way to put our self back in control once and for all.

I trust your view of this colleague of yours and I think this deep understanding of his personality will, in the end, play to your advantage in all this and in figuring out who you want to be within this relationship with him... Because I do believe that being authentic is not the same as always acting the same way... Being authentic, for me anyway, is having access to all of my parts, and learning to use them in their proper setting... 

I am aware there are differences, but I wholeheartedly believe your healthy assertion is in there somewhere... Just need to reroute your connection to this part of yours, but it is there...

Some people recommends watching videos or movies with characters or people that embodies those parts we want to develop in ourselves... As a way to... Get the vibe within, you know? Practice in the shower, again and again. It sounds a bit simple... But I am starting to believe it really is... And it is ourselves trapping ourselves by making it more complicated than it ought to be.

You are doing great, and I am grateful you brought this subject up. I do hope you will enjoy this book.  :hug:

We need to discipline our thought patterns and our minds... That's how I am looking at it right now... To be in control, completely, of our own projections would be the ultimate goal.

Interesting book - I will take a look at it.

By workplace - I didn't mean what people are thinking. It's that I have noticed some people are more adept at self advocating than I am but sometimes it's at the expense of co-workers.

Two co-worker left with short notice to take on better job opportunities. This was better for them in the financial sense, but created issues for the remaining co workers who were understaffed.

When presented with a similar opportunity, I hesitated- for several reasons. I didn't want to make a quick decision without knowing more about the position. I had agreed to take on a task with a co-worker and would have left them in a difficult situation. It's not about being concerned if that person likes me or not. It's not the way I choose to behave with people. For the other two who left- one stays in contact with me, the other one- with whom I was closer to, cut contact with work friends.

At the administrative level- their priority is the bottom line. They are far removed from any relationship with us or our working relationships with each other. The main effect on them if an employee leaves is that it incoveniences them to find someone else to do that job. For me, employee changes impact the employees and work relationships.

It's these conflicting considerations- that led me to not take on another job at short notice because it would result in damaging the work relationships that makes me wonder if I do this to my disadvantage. I don't regret saying no. There were unknown issues with the other job as well and I wasn't comfortable with a decision in short time. I do plan to look for other opportunities and would prefer to avoid short notice. Yes, the 2 weeks is standard but still disruptive. Too long would not be a good thing either but there's a balance. I don't dislike my employer and wish to stay in good standing. However, the two people I know who didn't seem as concerned about this have advanced in their positions. It was a good thing for them.

Such a thoughtful thread.  Your last post reminded me of a conversation with my son, in which he kind of knows he needs to leave his job but is very worried about the impact his departure would have on his co-workers.  I love that both of you take such deep consideration of that, it makes you the kind of co-worker we all want to work with.

Your prior statement might be particularly relevant
 
I am curious if “staying” is safer because it is a known situation, with known challenges and issues.  With the limited information about the opportunity that you passed on, I wonder if you think you passed to stay safe in a known situation.  A work change is always a calculated risk, but most of the time, if the  new work opportunity  and environment are worth that risk, it can pay off with a more stimulating and rewarding work environment. 

It really always comes down to our own self awareness.  Your post made me realize that a lot of the emotions I have burdened myself were of my own making.  I have been creating anxiety by anticipating the worst from my sister, rather than being prepared for it, and taking the situation as it comes in an authentic to myself way.  For me, it may be that I am not confident in my ability to be authentic and true to my values in a conflict situation.  I just need to trust my self and the work I have done.  I wonder if that might be true for you? 

I would love to hear more about the opportunity you passed on, and what you have learned about yourself as you reflect on it. 

I think there were several reasons at the time to pass on the opportunity. It would have required a lot of changes in very short notice and there were other things I needed to do at the same time. I didn't feel I had enough time to be properly prepared for the new task- including learning a new computer system, changing insurances, COBRA, (there would have been a gap between leaving and the start date). Also not sure about the benefits. Pay was slightly higher, benefits less- so how would that have played out?

Pros and cons of staying. In my current job, I have compatible work colleagues to share the tasks with. In new job, it would just be me. Pros of staying- less work load ( and less pay but that is the trade off). Cons of staying- my main coworker is not flexible (in a situation that could accommodate flexibility) so I end up defering to them (my co-dependency maybe) but the alternative is to do it all myself. My preference is to be collaborative. I do my part, even willing to do more than my part, but I am happier working collaboratively than solo.

I think the sum of it is that I should change jobs but was not sure that this is the job to change to. I wanted more time to consider what to do. I carry my share of the job and really didn't want to break a committment with short notice.  Although any of us can technically leave the job with short notice, I didn't want to do that.

The question for myself is that do I place too much importance on the work relationships and not wanting to cause them harm by leaving at short notice.

Two other employees did just that. One I thought was a friend. I tried to stay in contact with her but she made no effort to reciprocate. Once she was done with the job, she was also done with her co-workers. The other one is ambitious and doesn't care about inconveniencing co-workers. Doesn't care if bridges are burned.

I think my question is not about if it's wrong to care about not causing issues for colleages, but do I care too much?

As I expected, you definitely thought through this and made the right decision for you in this moment.  No job is perfect, but perhaps there is an opportunity out there that is more collaborative and would be a positive change for you.  Maybe you should begin quietly looking?

I think you are asking a good question related to work relationships.  Having just retired from a job that I had work relationships that spanned decades, it was a huge barrier for me in the decision to retire.  But now, looking back, there was a subset of the work relationships that had become friendships.  I know, very clearly now, who I want to stay connected with and who wants to continue to stay connected.   It is a lot more work, but no different than the transitions we make in school, teams, etc… a lot of the relationships fade away, and the important ones stick, when effort is expended.

You may care too much.  My son definitely cares too much.  I know I probably cared too much. I am biased but I think it is always better to care too much than to not care at all/burn bridges.  But just like our relationships with our BPD family members when we take on more responsibility for a relationship, particularly self sacrifice/missing positive opportunities for ourselves, it is important to question ourselves. You are asking the right questions.  Perhaps there is a middle ground, in which you continue to look for other options, but negotiate a longer notice to assure you are able to support a positive transition. You don’t strike me as someone who burns bridges, but you might have to allow yourself to prioritize your needs and goals and accept that there may be some disruption if you leave, but that those left behind will adapt.   ( You have had to pick up the pieces when others left).   

It sounds like overall there are definite positives in your current role, so there is no urgency and you have the luxury of looking and only making a change if you find something that is clearly better for you right now.  Take your time. 

Yes there are positives to the job- enough for me to stay and look and give a longer notice but I also know that there are enough drawbacks to make me look at alternatives.

On one hand, maybe we do care too much but I also want to feel comfortable with a longer notice myself so that could also be about being authentic to who we are even if it could put us in a position of disadvantage compared to someone more inclined to care lass.

Someone we care a lot, and we do it anyway, because it's not always about caring. It's about priorities too and maybe we value being there for a coworker, but then maybe we value our family more and would find ourselves in a better position to care for them if we left.

I don't think you should be looking at it by comparing your choices to others, because truthfully, we have no idea why other people make the choices the make. We know what they tell us, but they rarely tell us everything.

It's about yourself, only yourself.

When I read comments mentioning how "it's because they care less", it makes me wonder of you aren't unconsciously trying to make yourself feel better about staying in a position that don't truly suit your need longer than you would have liked. Maybe you cared, I will trust your word on that, but wasn't a part of you also maybe afraid of the unknown?

You don't have to answer me or anything... But I did feel like turning the table here... To invite you to look at you, and only you, and not compare yourself to what you think was happening for others and why they made the choices they made... Only. You.

These are good questions. I think the comment about "care less" was based on actions- prior behavior as well. The two co-workers left on very short notice- burned bridges and also one of them was someone who had done other things that were more self promoting and strategic- and a sort of "using others" so it wasn't based on just one decision.

I was also suprise that someone who I thought was a friend would disconnect from her work relationships. I don't think it's personal about me but her own decision about disconnecting from all of it. Still, we were friends outside work too, so it surprised me and prompted me to wonder if the relationship meant more to me than it actually was.

I don't think the decision to stay was based on fear of the unknown. It was a combination of things. I had mixed feelings about it. However, the experience did open my eyes to situations at work that have led me to consider other options which I am doing now.

I appreciate looking at this in terms of long-term life patterns, and thinking about choices the way Riv3rW0lf is framing them.

Notwendy, is there a recurring pattern of doing the *right* thing only to feel you were somehow not appreciated for your sacrifice?

To me that bigger picture is helpful since there is not a right answer. Burning bridges is a phrase that has a bias to it, as though people were not thinking of others, only themselves, but people do things for reasons, maybe for a different core group, like their family, or their long-term goals. We often don't know the full picture. They might be prioritizing someone else in their lives who needs them more.

For us, we can know why we make choices. I'm very intrigued by the idea that we generate anxiety about something we are fearful to change because it means moving out of a dynamic or narrative in which we are stuck, with feeling stuck feeling familiar and therefore not scary, even if it might be unpleasant.

There have been times in my life I behaved out of character because I was so overwhelmed by life events and felt unwilling to walk on eggshells. Those moments were gifts because they let me experience an alternate reality to how I typically go through life. Not only did nothing bad happen, things actually got better. I surprised people because I was clear about how I felt and what I wanted.

I think the takeaway I'm learning here from this thread is that if I find myself in a repeating role, where I feel victimized by others or wonder why me, or why me again? Then there is a choice I keep making that is not working for me.

My colleague situation is like that. I found myself wondering if I was a mark for people with bad boundaries. Or people who need a lot of emotional support at my expense. Something is happening early in a relationship that I seem to handle different than people who don't do what I do. I'm getting better at reconciling issues that pop up but I would like to not have them happen at all. I suspect, at least for me, that I am confusing "overly familiar" with "likable." Yet, when I think about walking back how familiar I allow people to be, I experience anxiety.

This anxiety seems to be an important messenger. I suspect it comes from a pattern as old as me, where I am afraid to change my habits because bad things could happen. And the truth is, bad things might happen. But not because of what I do or don't do -- there will always be uncertainty. The alternative is that I will not break the pattern of feeling inauthentic when people with bad boundaries run roughshod over me. I won't get to feel authentic, which at this point in my life feels like the whole point.

The choice whether to stay or go seems almost beside the point. What seems relevant is whether you find yourself paying a price for putting others' needs ahead of your own. If it's 60/40 that might be a livable ratio. But if 9/10 we are left holding the trash bag after everyone has left then there is a pattern there and all arrows point back to us and the choices we make.

Livednlearned has nailed describing whether people pleasing works or not. I gave up the people pleasing with many of my disordered relatives because it just led to them abusing me more because I am one of the family scapegoats. On the other hand, there are times when I perceive that it is best to be nice and end the interactions with people when I can or at least keep the relationships superficial for my own well being for if I were to demand any kind of emotional reciprocity in these relationships I would get abused. Some disordered people only exist for themselves and cannot handle the authenticity of another person because it does not fit with their reality of being the only person in the room.

I think you have "hit the nail on the head". There is something about feeling I have to do the right thing and not being appreciated for it. I can see this in relation to my family and even now, being concerned about "doing the right thing" in regards to my mother. I think to sum it up- it's been a form of self affirmation for me while growing up in a situation where there wasn't affirmation at home. So knowing I did the ethical thing when being criticised and accused of whatever was a way of holding on to my own sense of reality.

Admittely, my job has been a source of affirmation. If I did a good job, there would be affirmation of that and this is a key issue here- with turn over at the administration level, doing a good job is not appropriately rewarded. I am not the only one who feels this way. Several people have left this situation. I just somehow think it took me longer to decide that too and I think it's in part because it takes me longer to figure out these situations due to the familiarity of being undervalued.

I do tend to be the "emotional fixer" in the work dynamics and the emotional support person but not to the extent that it's a negative. I keep a boundary on my personal life- it's strictly workplace dynamics. It's that this is a stregnth I can bring to the dynamics while someone else might be more technical and detail oriented. With different personalities in the mix, coherence is a value. I don't feel I do it to the point of resentment.

I don't feel exploited with the people I work with directly. I think we have all brought something to the table equally. Leaving on short notice would have impacted them the most. It's at the administrative level and has affected several people.

Hi All,
I logged in hoping to find a thread that resonated with me, and there it was!
Thank YOU L&L and everyone else who has posted to this thread!

I am currently experiencing a lot of guilt because I have a coworker who I believe may be in crisis.  My old self, would be "johnny on the spot" as others have explained, overly nice, being that go to person they would have to talk to... this codependency of mine runs Deep, after all.  It is a trauma bond with my soul, unfortunately, I am me and I am only me if I'm being codependent.

I feel so out of sorts because I've been taking conscious purposeful efforts lately to "check in" with me.  How do I feel about my stepdaughter "disowning me."  How do I feel about my other adult stepdaughter "forgiving" me and saying to her Dad "whatever, I'm OVER it" (I am NOT over her passive aggressive behavior towards me though, so that's too bad!)  Forgiveness doesn't work like this, she doesn't just get to decide a text message I sent to her ex-husband at the beginning of COVID is not the mortal sin she originally thought it was. How do I feel about a coworker stomping all over my boundaries for the better part of 2 months?  How do I feel about another coworker who is likely in crisis?  And why do I keep "predicting" what's going to happen with her to my husband?

oy

These are tough things we are all working on!

b

 

hi zachira,
I'm glad you are up.  I need to tape this to my forehead!  (I laughed inside when I read it for it reminds me of both my step daughters!)  lol

Some disordered people only exist for themselves and cannot handle the authenticity of another person because it does not fit with their reality of being the only person in the room


b

Forgot to mention, I would never think to say this to my coworker in crisis, what if she attempted or committed suicide because she did Not have someone else to talk to??  I ghosted her instead.  yikes

"Hey, it sounds like you're going through something. Do you have someone you can talk to about this?" Meaning, someone other than me.

But no really, why am I not jumping in to rescue her?  What is different today about me?  What is better?  I guess that I came here to post about why I feel guilty for not being my old self, and to say that I'm taking care of me and that's my priority right now?  If so, amazing really....that is AMAZING

Yeah me

[for someone who has always put others' needs before mine, this is truly a milemarker]

Note:  I did reach out to our boss and tell him her resignation what "not because of anything he or I said to her"

Maybe I just swapped being codependent towards the disordered person for being codependent towards the less needy but affected guy?  hmmm

beatricex- I do this kind of thing too. I tend to be the one to jump in and smooth things over. Doing it less now- I think it's because we are more aware of the behavior, rather than assume it is our "normal" to do so?

Changing behavior takes some time and also we can fall back on doing it because we are used to that- but it's more like progress not perfection.

I agree- it wouldn't be desirable to lean too much to the other side and not step in ever. If someone is in obvious distress- yes, be of support- and that might mean encouraging them to see someone or get help. But we can be aware of when we are over doing it.

Did it feel like talking to him was at the expense of something else you wanted to do or cared about?

I suspect there is a shift in attachment styles, from anxious or avoidant to secure when we change codependent tendencies. Did you feel like you had to take care of him without evidence that he needed to be taken care of? Those are questions I would have for myself. I know I've done something similar, where I anticipate how someone feels and take care of them before checking assumptions that they need me. Someone once said to me that feeling awkward is how learning feels. Learning feels awkward. That might be a way of saying that changing codependent tendencies is bound to be awkward because we act in unnatural ways (for us) until the new habit feels more natural, and maybe one day effortless. My guilt often feels awkward when I feel it but don't act on it.

Compared to people who were born into families where they felt safe enough to develop a secure attachment I suspect I'll have to reflect on tricky interactions (for life?) with people and will feel tend to experience some degree of uncertainty because I don't have an inborn reflex to behave from a securely attached place.  

The colleague I've been having issues with has been a source of growth for me. Work/professional relationships can feel like pseudo family because we don't necessarily choose them. For me, this colleague is a hot stove. If I am in a group of 10 people, it seems like 2 or 3 will reach out and touch the stove and burn themselves. I used to be in that group.

With a lot of work and practice and reflection, I think I'm more likely to be in the group of 2-3 people who reaches to touch the stove then stops before getting burned (for the most part). That's progress for me.

Maybe there's another group of 2-3 who used to touch the stove and now they don't because they recognize the signs. That's where I'd like to be. And share what works to be that way. I'd say I'm about 7/10 on achieving this consistently. I don't really know what's preventing me from having a perfect record  *)

Then the last group of 2-3 -- I don't get to be in that group. They don't touch hot stoves, they don't get burned, they don't seem to understand what the problem is: Don't touch a hot stove! Or, some of them will recognize any scars I point to and express sympathy because they're caring people. But they won't really understand that my definition of safety is something I had to create for myself and carve it out one interaction at a time. They grew up feeling safe and that safety is like bedrock.

What sets me apart from this last group is that I have empathy for the first two groups and curiosity about the last.

I seem to gravitate to people who are in this 3rd group (no longer touch the stove 10/10 times)  because when I ask questions they get what it is I'm working through  :hug:

Did it feel like talking to him was at the expense of something else you wanted to do or cared about? YES

I suspect there is a shift in attachment styles, from anxious or avoidant to secure when we change codependent tendencies. Did you feel like you had to take care of him without evidence that he needed to be taken care of?  YES

I am beating myself up a little because I envy that group that's saying "Duh, don't touch not stoves!"

I do think, however, it's somewhat cooler to be in the 10/10 group.  Hey, we have cool hot stove burns  *)

 :wee:
I am proud of myself for recognizing it at least.  Thanks for the assist, Lived & Learned.


Just a quick update:  my coworker in crisis quit her job, yesterday was her last day.  I'm not sure how I feel about this yet.

I knew she was going to quit because my boss informed me at the beginning of the week.  I didn't reach out to her though.
Yesterday she sent me a quick message, "thank you for helping me...I am resigning due to health issues..."

The only thing I responded with was "OK take care of yourself and you're welcome"

It is one thing to come here and talk to folks about our struggles (we're all anonymous here).  It's another to openly talk about our mental health struggles at work.

Work is work afterall, we get paid to work at work.

I also felt it's not really my place to advise my coworker.  The reasons are complex, but one of the reasons is that I cannot see her, I'm not sitting across a table or cubicle from her.  She's in a different city than I am in.  I may not be able to see her situation over the phone and am probably not qualified and am thus not the best person to help her.

I truly feel like "helping" her in this instance might have looked like me saying as little as possible and just listening and maybe being a sounding board when she told me she might take a leave of absence. 

Glossing over the fact that she was not able to do her job, saying anything like "No, you were such a great worker" (she was not) or anything like that probably wouldn't have helped her either.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

I do feel a tad bit guilty.  but only a tad
 

I like the idea of time being like space, and that there is a limit to it, especially hours in a day and how we fill them.

The related analogy I use for myself is a cup. If I wake up tired after not sleeping well and my cup is not full, then that's my priority: To fill it. With the regular demands of normal daily life, that alone can be quite challenging. Supporting someone who fills my cup is more important than someone who drains it.

Between health issues, getting work done, running a household, investing time in my interests, being parents to 4 complex adult kids, protecting the health and well-being of my marriage, there often is not much left over if the goal is to fill that cup.

Your question is a good one because there is problem something here about guilt and people pleasing. Do you feel guilty for wishing her well and not doing more?

I don't think guilt is quite the same when you are raised to people please. Many people who responded to your coworker the way you did might not experience guilt. I'm certain I would feel guilt. The difference is that I'm no longer as trusting of that feeling (leads to touching hot stoves). Therapy has helped me realize I over index on guilt so if I feel it strongly, that is becoming an invitation to reflect versus an invitation to act.

that was all well said L&L

Thank you for helping me with my touch of guilt

She thanked me for helping her (I don't feel I really did anything, I thought I was maybe triggering her because she told me she had an abusive Mom, and she is young enough to be my daughter)

Now I'm thanking you for helping me

 lol

Reflective instead of reactive will stick with me today....also the cup analogy.

I am currently sick and I need to manage my marriage too.  Also one adult stepdaughter who is hostile (we have 2 grandsons).  My dog needs me too. lol