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I recently decided to pursue divorce from my uBPDw of 13 years following a conflict that turned physical about five weeks ago. The physical part was very minor, thankfully, and was initiated by her, but in the end that doesn’t matter. That was really the final straw.

In the meantime she has done nothing to facilitate the divorce nor has she made any attempts to reconcile the relationship.

Early on she did tell me “we should do our best to be civil and compassionate towards each other.” I couldn’t agree more and told her so. I attempted to recap and explain why I felt that divorce should be pursued, but without getting into “the details”. Just broadbrush, non threatening, non provocative stuff.

“You know, my feelings have just been repeatedly hurt over the last year and a half. I don’t want to feel the way I feel, but if *we* can’t fix *us* then there’s nothing left for me to do but fix *me*.”
Before I could go any further she jumped in: “Well my feelings have been hurt too!”

That’s very typical of her and I couldn’t help but see it, in that moment, as yet just another denial of my experience, of the way I feel. It’s like she wouldn’t even “hold space” for me in that moment. She quickly had to get herself into a tie with me, as if hurt feelings just cancel themselves out?

Me: “I don’t want to get divorced. What I WANT is mom and dad and two kids and the zoo and birthday parties and ice cream. But only *we* can make that happen. You’ve had numerous opportunities to pursue change but you won’t. I feel like I have no choice. I have to move on before this gets worse and we risk damaging our children for life.”

Her: “Well if you don’t want it then why are you doing it?!?!” Again, it’s like she’s incapable of actually hearing me. Hearing me would validate me, thus transforming me from a mere participant to an actual active member of the family. A peer, an equal. Someone with rights and someone who actually deserves things. She can’t have that.

Things simmered down and I was still considering divorce via mediation. It’s theoretically the quickest, cheapest and least traumatic option. But her behavior over the last few weeks has proven to me that she is absolutely “unmediatable”.

I found another attorney whose retainer is half of the first one. Plus I sort of know her. We’re friendly but not friends. However, to clear up any thoughts of conflict of interest I told my W about the new developments and said that she could call the lawyer with any questions. She didn’t even respond to that, instead let loose a torrent of nasty insults, e.g.

“I wasted years of my life with you”
“You’re making a mistake. I can’t wait to watch you suffer”
“I really hate you”
“I hope you choke on your tears”
“Does it hurt yet?”

Later that day my 11 year old daughter called me at work, very upset and angry. Apparently my W had been yelling at the kids and my daughter confronted her. W said that she was yelling because she hates her life, then clarified “it’s because I hate your father.”  Then told my D that we’re divorcing because I’m a “cheater” and went on to give D blow-by-blow details of an “emotional affair” I had 4 years ago. W was kind enough to add “your dad’s a cheater and I can prove it. When he was much younger he was briefly married to another woman, and that marriage ended because he cheated.”

Whether or not any of the above is true is completely irrelevant when it comes to a mother and her 11 year old daughter. Telling our D this stuff serves only one purpose as far as I can tell: to confuse and upset the child, portray my wife as the victim of a rotten husband and alienate the child from me. My W later justified doing so because she told D “the truth”. You can stick the truth up your @ss as far as I’m concerned. Our job is to protect these children, and sometimes that means protecting them from the truth.

The next day, despite having the entire house to herself all day, she waited until I came home to bring photo albums and pictures to the kitchen table and systematically rip and cut me out of them. Right in front me with me standing there making dinner. I could see the dysregulation in action, and I just stood there in silence. No point confronting it in that moment. Later I was gathering up the cut up remnants before our kids got home and saw pieces of their father strewn all over the table. “What’s the matter?! Can’t bear to see yourself this way??!”

“No,” I replied, “the kids will be back any minute. I figure they didn’t need to see their dad cut out of their life like this.”

The next day I decided that mediation is off the table and met with the attorney myself. She just can’t, she can’t hold together long enough to even consider negotiating, discussing, compromising, or doing anything other than serving whatever base need, base emotion she’s feeling in that moment. She just can’t regulate long enough.

So I pulled a bunch of money out of retirement and deposited it into a new bank account to which only I have access. I secured a nice apartment here in town, literally 100 yards away from my wife’s job. The kids will be with me most of the time because W can’t get them to and from school most days.

It really sucks seeing what this is doing to my 11D. She has no connection with her mother, because her mother can’t connect with anyone, and it’s tearing her up.

I haven’t told them that I/we are moving out yet. Not sure how I’m gonna break it to W. I suspect that she’ll completely lose it, but I’m not sure. I can’t help but feel responsible for the fall out, even though I know I’m not. And I can’t help but feel like I wish this would all just go away. Like it never happened. But it did happen, and now I have to resist the urge to just go back to the status quo.

Hi, I don't really feel qualified to give advice since everyone on this forum is currently helping *me* but one thing that has helped me to stick with my convictions to go through with divorce is to keep a list of the "last straws" (all 30[/] "last" straws) and look at it any time I start to change my mind. Maybe take one of those cut up pictures or make a list.

I have learned that coming off of a trauma bond is like coming off of drugs. One little hit is all it takes to stay addicted.

May I suggest a very timely and important aid for your children?  Counseling.  I'm not talking about for the parents, while it's too late for couple's therapy, individual counseling couldn't hurt.  I'm talking about counseling for the children.

Would your stbEx oppose the children having counseling?  Here are a few pointers:

• Give a heads up to the school counselors so they can begin a dialogue and monitor the children's needs.
• My lawyer always exclaimed, "Courts love counseling!"  If your spouse is likely to oppose then include a request of counseling for the children.  Courts very likely will order it even if one parent opposes the concept.
• Do more than just request counseling, use a strategy that has worked well for us here.  Build a list of recommended and respected children's counselors.  Then present the list at the right time to the court and allow the ex to pick from your vetted list.  (1) Court will like it since it shows you're willing to involve both parents in the selection.  (2) You will be happy since your ex's predictable inclination, if she was choosing counselors, would be to pick inexperienced, biased or gullible counselors to be ex's negative advocates.  Instead she would be limited to your short list of vetted counselors.

You need to do everything you can to reassure your kids that everything will be alright and will work out okay, and - most importantly - that you love them and will be there for them.

They're scared and worried about things like where they will sleep that night if their parents split, so providing as much of a semblance of stability as you can is important.

The best advice I received (from my kid's therapist after the divorce):

Kids are observant.  They'll make up their own minds about who was right and who was wrong eventually.  You have to be careful not to invalidate their feelings; correct incorrect statements or beliefs if you must. 

If they say something or ask a question, ask them what they believe or why they think that.  Let them get their full thoughts out so you can address them.

Do not bad mouth your ex in front of your kids.  They're still half of her, and can take criticism of either parent personally.   This is an easy rule in some ways, but also can get muddled if your kids are upset with her and badmouthing her.  You don't need to join in.

I've been put in some bad situations by BPDxw attacking me, attacking my family, claiming to my kid that I "abandoned" her, etc. I could tell this was stressing my D out by confusing her. 

but by following the advice above, I feel I've handled it well, and let my daughter know she's welcome to have her own feelings and thoughts, and doesn't have to agree with everything her mom says.  I could tell she felt relieved by this; it was almost like a light went on in her head as she realized she didn't have to accept her mom's version of reality which conflicted with her own.

Thank you all for weighing in. Caffeine: I was following your story and that inspired me to do a little journaling of my own.

My daughter has therapy available through her school which she has been taking advantage of. My 8S has seen the school counselor a few times as well. I’m looking for family therapy now. Should I arrange it for myself and the kids? Just the kids? Or all four of us? I’m cautious not to create an “us versus wife” scenario, I just want the kids to know that they’re supported and have a place to openly express themselves and get healthy feedback.

Pete: I like all that you wrote, especially about your daughter not having to accept her mom’s version of reality. I like that. I’m very very keen to never badmouth their mother to them. I refuse to do that and have told them so. But I really like that: “Your mom said ______? How does that make you feel? Do you think it’s true, or is there perhaps more to the story? You don’t have to agree with it just because she says it.”

I’m really trying not to fall into old patterns but it’s hard, namely my propensity for using my behavior to dictate my wife’s. “If I do ____ then she’ll respond with [positive]/[negative] reaction.”  I have to stop that and just do what I need to do for myself. But it’s really hard. I’ve gotten so accustomed to stifling myself in the interest of keeping the peace. Me moving out is going to open the door to all kinds of nonsense. Nonsense that I might be slightly more removed from (living in separate places) but she’ll find a way to punish and torment me if she needs to.

I’ve been reading about boundaries, including the boundaries post on this site, and am contemplating writing her a boundaries letter. I don’t know, just something that clearly communicates what I will and won’t do in an effort to manage my life and the lives of our children. I doubt she’ll receive it the way it was intended, but it’s worth a shot?

Do you think your wife's parental alienation behaviors will worsen as the divorce becomes more real to her?

I may be misremembering your story so my apologies if I'm mixing things up here. You mention behaviors in this post that suggest she already engages in alienation behaviors. And the kids have a closer relationship with you, as well as logistical reasons for having them stay with you (her nursing schedule, I'm assuming).

For therapy, whatever you get going it's best to start now if you can. How would your wife respond if you invited her to join a family therapy session? I mean, it's unlikely she'll go but it might be easier to get her consent now before lawyers get involved (if it's likely to head that way).

My lawyer gave me that advice and I acted on it without understanding how fraught it can be to get counseling going when one parent refuses permission. If you're going through a divorce, many Ts can get skittish in case they are subpoenaed. My son's T had us both sign a form waiving subpoena's. That's one way to get the other parent to feel safer about therapy -- it signals that nothing said in T will be used against them in a custody battle. However, unknown to many parents is that Ts may give permission to speak to other professionals, which is what ours did when the court ordered a parenting coordinator. The PC ended up testifying based on her own direct experience, which was informed (but not made explicit) in her testimony. She knew, for example, that I came to all sessions where ex did not. She knew that ex sent threatening emails to our son's T and that he was repeatedly invited to join sessions and refused while also accusing everyone of excluding him.

I'm a fan of family therapy although it's not often discussed here. It was not intentional for me but due to the relationship my son built with his T, and having our sessions happen at the end of the day, we often sat in the (very comfy) waiting area and began chatting, the 3 of us. This was probably the most therapeutic time -- my son never quite initiated it but would often sit there as draw out the time. He liked the rapport of two adults being in his life who adored him, paid attention to him, were curious about what he had to say. It almost felt like we reparented him in those sessions, which went on for years like that. Occasionally, my son would want to meet 1:1 and he and T would have their session (including times he needed to vent about me  :(). Looking back, we lucked out that things worked out this way. Before that, my son was in individual therapy with a good T who he just didn't really connect with. She seemed quite nervous about being subpoenaed and was careful to the point I'm not sure she was serving his best interests.

We also found amazing success with two school family specialists and the middle school guidance counselor, who was exceptional.

What was most important, though, was being willing to look at your own parenting and feel ok about claiming responsibility for stuff. Our kids grow up a bit faster than we realize, and being able to take responsibility is something that is tough for them to get their heads around. One parent takes no responsibility and the other is so locked in combat it can be hard to really validate how our kids feels. It took me so long to recognize that I was making mistakes too and be truly deeply validating about how that impacted my son. Best thing I ever did was to slow down and listen and not talk so much, just feel until it hurt and then some. It was like giving him a place to set down his own pain and then together letting it dissipate by holding space for what he went through and survived.

A really important book I can't recommend enough is Don't Alienate the Kids by Bill Eddy. It helps you shift your attention away from what she's doing to what you can do to model the behaviors you want them to internalize. I am stunned how much my son absorbed from me. He's 22 now and will say things I modeled or said in his teens, except to him these are his own thoughts. Temperamentally he and I are similar so it's not a given that all kids will be so receptive but if your kids feel emotionally safe with you and trust you, this can go a long way to reinforcing what are probably already strong instincts in you.

Divorce Poison by Richard Warshak is also helpful for the peak conflict phase when alienation behaviors can spike. It's a bit harrowing to read and it helps to make sure you stay centered when reading it because it covers extreme cases. But even in less severe cases, alienation is still a form of abuse -- similar to what your wife did by talking about your past relationships to D11. The best thing I learned from Warshak was also helping my son figure out the difference between lying, privacy, confidentiality, memory lapses, etc. I would use tv shows and books and even create hypothetical scenarios, or use examples from his peer experiences to think out loud whether something was a lie or not. This helped him develop his own skills for sorting out what happened when his dad told him things that were hyperbolic and designed to undermine relationships with others, not just me but friends and their parents that n/BPDx didn't like.

Thank you Lived. I’m gonna digest this and respond when I can. Thank you

I would get the kids individual therapy.  Follow foreverdad's advice.

I did something similar; knowing BPDxw's tendency to jump from therapist to therapist until she found someone she could manipulate, I had a therapist my attorney knew pick three good ones, and we let BPDxw choose from among the 3.

And regarding your discussions with your daughter, I'd be sure to leave off any leading questions.  So just "How did that make your feel?" or "Do you agree with that?"

When my D was clearly skeptical of something like "Mom says this, and I saw this." I would be careful not to call it like it was "your mom is a baldfaced LIAR and has no qualms about saying whatever she wants in that moment, even if she claimed the exact opposite thing 5 minutes before, AND you have that recorded."

I would just say "Your mom has her own view of that, and that's fine.  I don't agree with it."

If I had some objective fact to back up my side, I would share that when appropriate.  For example, for a period of time, BPDxw kept telling my D that I "abandoned" her because I didn't want a family.  I simply said that was not true, and I stayed close by to be near to my daughter and remain part of her life; I only left her mom because of how her mom behaved.

My D said she understood that, but wasn't sure who to believe now.  I just told her she doesn't have to believe either of us, but go with what she thought.  I never heard her accuse me of abandoning her again after that.


She may do that, but just keep firm... you ex has no business showing up at your house, entering your house, knowing who you see, where you go etc.  She will pry.  She will demand things.  You can and should say no.  You already hopefully understand the lack of boundaries such people have, and now you have your own place so there's no reason to allow it to continue.  

She will also try to use your kids to pry; this is why the above communication techniques and building trust with your kids is so important.  Kids hate being pulled in between divorced parents and will resent the one doing it.

Keep a voice recorder for face-to-face meetings if there are no witnesses.

I actually had very little direct contact with BPDxw after divorce. most pickups and dropoffs of kids were before or after school.  And we had no friends in common really.  But there was one time she dropped off some antibiotics our daughter was taking and I walked outside to get them.  The conversations was innocuous...  like as basic as "here you go" and "thanks" but a week later sent me a message saying I behaved aggressively toward her and she wanted her boyfriend to be there next time because she didn't feel safe with me.

I WISH i had my VR On for the exchange so I could just play it back...

I faced that quandary in a tense scenario with CPS in the latter part of my divorce, after a failed settlement conference but before the scheduled trial day.

My friend please take your time and if you feel any pressure...try not to. An idea if it would help you...respond back in mini-posts so as not to overwhelm your mind. Kinda go about it like ok with this post I am going to respond to this part and this part and then move on, maybe the next day respond back as an add-on, etc. Check list style and one step at a time. Just some food for thought to help you process and sift through everything.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

Hard to say, honestly. Her wild bouts of disregulation don’t show much in the way of a pattern. Well, actually, they seem to be triggered by me showing her that I’m unflappable. The more it looks like I’m distancing myself from her and the tornado the more she lashes out.


Yea, I think you’re correct. They are closer to me, and I have (probably) shown them more in the way of availability and consistency. Logistically it makes far more sense for them to primarily stay with me, at least for now.


Hard to say. Whatever her motivation, I’d say she’d likely attend any group sessions. The degree to which she contributes is a different story. I wouldnt be surprised if she did just enough to say “I participated in family therapy” but not not enough to have any substantive impact.



Very interesting, thank you. As I go forward with the attorney it’s scenarios like the above that I’d like to prepare myself for and try and get ahead of.

Yea man, sh!t, I hear you. It’s a really tough but noble effort to be honest with yourself and honest with your children. But it’s so worth it and so necessary. I’m doing my best to remember that I am setting the example for them, and I may have to bear the burden of double-parenting. It’s daunting for sure. And I’ll definitely check out those books. Thanks for your thoughtful response.

one more point, I wanted to address this specifically... I received some advice about sending letters like this that was helpful: write the letter but DON'T send it right away.  Give yourself some time to see how things go and how your feelings change. 

Also, consider that BPDers do not process information in the same way a non-disordered person does, so while you may think you're helpfully laying down the rules of what you will and won't tolerate, for her you're basically waving a red cape in front of a bull. 

Saying "I will not tolerate X," is basically daring her to do it.  If you're prepared for that, then by all means, go for it, but I think with BPDers, the less said, the better.  The less said, the less they can get upset over.  The more you say, the greater the likelihood they'll find something to offense over.  And when you get that angry response back accusing you of abuse/neglect/lying/deceit/cruelty are you going to ignore it or get drawn back in to respond? 

Very true. She just invited me to get involved in some kind of circular, go nowhere “discussion” that was only designed to get me to explain myself (which I don’t need to do), get caught in her circular logic and be left as the perpetrator in a non-existent assault on her feelings and chasing my own tail. I saw it from a mile away, and chose not to say anything. It worked, basically, but no my head hurts. I think it’s the detox-ing, to be honest. My nature is to dive in, strike down every point she tries to make, desperately try and defend myself and come out “ahead”. That’s such a fools errand, this I know now. It will get easier and easier to do, I hope.