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Hello fam  :hi:. I will start my new thread off with a quote from a fellow member.


I want to embrace this sentiment, and allow it to guide me. You can learn and grow from situations regardless of how they shake out. Indeed, I have already learned so much on my journey,  thanks in no small part to this community. The hardships that have come from falling for my ex, and the events that ensued, have allowed me to grow into the person I am today. I am trying to embrace all parts of myself, including how incredibly stubborn I can be, how I have anxious attachment (at least with this person in particular), how I have my own mental health struggles, and how incredibly hard it is for me to let go.

After pretty regular and pleasant back and forth for about 2 months, my ex blocked me. This makes me feel disappointed (look at me identifying my emotions  :wee:). I know intellectually that this ghosting is not personal. I know that I can learn and improve my communication in the future. That being said, it wasn`t realistic of me to try to `control` what may trigger him. I also acknowledge that I`ve lost some spark. Talking to him, even as a friend, made life brighter for me. Maybe part of this detaching process is accepting that my `normal` isn`t going to be a recreation of the warm feelings I have when I interact with him. Maybe it looks different, more subdued, and that`s okay.

I sent him an e-mail (which is usually not blocked but who knows) expressing how I feel as best as I could, and I will leave it at that. He hasn`t replied, although he usually does, even when he is angry. I know this focus on his actions is pointless. I have leaned on support from friends, and it`s been a true blessing. How they are not tired of me and my repetive story I have no clue  lol. They seem to think that this blocking isn`t permanent, but it`s hard to convince myself of it |iiii.

I will update here about how I`m feeling. I don`t want to be afraid of my feelings anymore.

Hello  :hi: . Life has been pretty busy recently. I have been focusing on work, exploring new neighbourhoods, spending time with friends. I have made an appointment with a new therapist because I felt like I wasn`t making much progress. The weather has been sunny, and the flowers and reawakening of nature that comes with spring has me in a happy mood.

Here is a message that I would have liked to send to him. I have been writing these in my journal, but today I felt like sharing.

Hello!

Hope you`re enjoying the sunshine! It`s been a chunk of time since you disappeared. Not sure what the right `protocol` is. I mean, logically speaking, you blocking me and not answering my e-mail indicates that you don`t want to speak to me. You didn`t say, this time, if you were mad, if I crossed a line, if you just need time, if you don`t think being friends can work out because I am a nut, or because I get too bold when I drink a lot of caffeine (someone actually told me to calm down the other day at work since I got too excited)...it`s hard not to ruminate about. Why do I care so much? Why do I send these messages into the void? I don`t have a complete answer to that, although several guesses, and hopefully more clarity with therapy and journaling and walks on the beach (although sometimes I get tired and hungry on these walks and end up feeling grumpy). Love, my childhood, attachment, the ups and downs of the relationship that give me hope but also make me sad, the dream of finally seeing you again.

I guess I don`t have much more of a point than telling you how I feel. I miss you a lot, and hope you`re well.

Keep learning. Keep posting here. Keep writing in your journal.

Don't send your loving messages into the void. It's so hard because it feels like maybe one more message will be the one that changes things for the better. But I think you know logically that it won't. I try to think of it like a transfer of love and energy. I'm sending my love into a black hole to be sucked up and destroyed by whatever is going on in their brain.

And sometimes I still send the messages - but it's easier for me to sit here and tell you not to. Hang in there.

Hi Tina,

Reading your message made me feel sad, because you clearly have a lot of love to give, and it's being directed to someone who can't receive it... although that's the way when it comes to insecure attachments: we choose people we know aren't truly available for love, because that keeps us locked into old patterns and re-enforces old stories where love feels like yearning or longing for someone, rather than us feeling safe, accepted and that we are being loved consistently.

Did you decide to send this email in the end? I think it's good you shared it here...

Do you feel like him blocking you on the phone was him trying to set a boundary that he might actually stick to this time. How would that feel if he truly doesn't want any contact beyond here?

I'm glad to hear you booked in with a new therapist if you think you aren't making much progress with the current one. Have you done much work on your attachment elsewhere outside of therapy? The Personal Development School is so interesting and has a ton of content if you're looking for something new to try.

This topic is making me think about No Contact.

It's interesting how NC is a tool we talk about for protecting ourselves from BPD. But on the other hand, we don't do well when the pwBPD gives us the NC silent treatment (at least I don't). It hurts.

What's the difference?

NC is a non-natural behavior that generally hurts people, right? It's normal to be hurt by NC I think. The natural behavior is to put people in the grey area. You can dial a relationship down to 10% or 5% or even less, without totally disowning someone at 0%. We do this all the time with long lost friends and even exes.

Is the difference that pwBPD use NC as a weapon to punish and recycle? They use it to abandon and un-abandon people at a time of their choosing, in order to try to make themselves feel in control.

And the reason Nons need to learn NC is because it's an unnatural behavior but it's an effective and necessary tool for protecting ourselves from the pain of BPD?

Thank you for your replies, it means a lot to me  :hug:!


I can relate to the `one more message` point a lot. I think, with the history of our relationship (and maybe yours too), this idea was reinforced; sometimes my messages did seem to make a difference. I`m realizing that sometimes they do, but often times they don`t. Sending them provides temporary relief for my anxiety, yet that anxiety returns when the message goes unanswered. Then, I`m left thinking `well now I`ve sent 4 unanswered messages, I should have stopped at 3`.

I am the one who reinitiated contact this time because I noticed that I was unblocked. I hadn`t spoken to him in 6 months at that point. I hadn`t sent any of these types of messages either. I don`t think, in all honesty, that he would have reached out himself. A part of me realized that I have to act a little `wonky` in order to engage with him. I use `wonky` in a kind way to mean being okay with putting it all out there, being rejected. The question I could ask myself then is - is a relationship that plays out like a `slot machine`, where I send vulnerable messages that sometimes go unanswered worth persuing? (I don`t have an answer to that)


Hey seekingtheway! I didn`t end up sending the message. I think if I were to send a message it would have to have more of a point in order to be worth it for me. As in I`m writing the message for myself in order to let go. I think this last one was just me writing to tell him I miss him.

I think it is possible that this blocking is a boundary that he will maintain from here of out. It`s very hard for me to accept. I have done some reading on attachment, but haven`t concretely worked on any exercises as of yet. I`ll check out this ressource! Thanks for the recommendation!


You bring up an interesting point. To me, thinking about this makes me towards him. Honestly, I don`t think he wants to punish me. I`ve witnessed him blocking other people. I think that he feels overwhelmed, and hurt, and wants control. In this case, he had flirted with me, and didn`t like when I did it back as it would mean jeopardizing his relationship, and all his eggs are in that basket. He couldn`t explain in his own mind what was going on - was I disrespecting his boundaries, but hadn`t he also made a comment and spoken to me? What did it mean? He wouldn`t be able to navigate the nuance, it was beyond the limits of his own emotional capabilities, and so as a defence he blocked me.

Great question. Google "random positive reinforcement". It's the most powerful incentive system.

If you give a piece of cheese to a laboratory mouse each time he presses a button, he'll eventually get bored. And if you give a reward each time, and then stop giving the reward, the mouse will quickly stop pressing the button.

But if you RANDOMLY reward the mouse only SOME of the time, he'll never get bored. In fact, the mouse will continue to press the button LONG after you STOP giving any cheese and leave the room. Because he knows it's random, and maybe the next press is the one that gets the cheese.

This is why slot machines are addictive. And iPhones are addictive because we randomly receive alerts and emails. (If you set your alerts to only be delivered twice a day on a schedule, your phone addiction will lessen considerably).

And it's also probably why dysfunctional relationships can be so addicting. We get randomly rewarded with tidbits of happiness, and we keep pressing the button long after the cheese is gone.

Or the cheese starts to taste different  lol.

I think this is certainly a factor at play. Couple that with my own tendencies towards obsessive-compulsive behaviour, and anxiety, and you have a clear explanation for why I have such difficulty letting go. It's one thing to explain, and another thing to live with.

How do I remove myself from the situation? By creating closure for myself, seeing the relationship quite differently, and getting that support in therapy to keep up with my decisions. I can do it, it just requires effort that I thought I had already put in enough of  lol. Alright, here is an action plan:

- creating closure for myself : writing a message that gives me my own closure. it's been about a month since he blocked me, I think that is a good limit for myself on how long I am willing to 'wait'
- seeing the relationship differently : this isn't the dream that I have so often characterized it as. he was serving a purpose to me as the object of my affections (which i will explore in therapy). he isn't showing up, in this moment, as someone who is bringing value to my life.

Good plan!

You can also begin to train your brain to receive regular positive reinforcement without depending on him. Friends and this board can provide some of that.

This is where some people find daily affirmations helpful. Regular doses of positivity can help counteract the chaos.

You may already have a good daily routine with your compulsive tendencies. Routines can be helpful to get regular, positive reinforcement - whether that's a daily cup of coffee or just making your bed to start the day. The most obvious example of this is professional athletes who use daily training routines to counteract the chaos and randomness of competition. If they just winged it every day, the training wouldn't be as effective.

Stick to your plan - I like it.

Thank you for being so encouraging :)

I feel like I need to re-learn some rather basic things about myself, which leads me to feel disappointed. What things do I like doing for me? Do I care too much about what people think? How can I enjoy my own company? What things do I want to work towards, for myself?

I guess if I change my perspective, and see this as an opportunity to get to know myself even more, then I feel better. And to be proud of my own tenacity, and willpower to never give up :) . Lots to learn in this life!

I`ll make a list of positive things that I like doing for myself, that I can come back to when I feel low:

- I`ll look into affirmations! Any recommendations?
- Drinking coffee makes me happy :)
- Sitting in the sun
- Reading a good book
- Embroidery (well, crafting in general)
- Going for a walk, buying myself a `treat` (a new plant!)
- Calling a friend and having them hang out `in the background` while I go about my daily tasks
- Doing some pilates or yoga
- Watching a comedy show
- Baking or cooking
- Posting here about my progress, or whatever I`m thinking

And when I do think about him, sending positivity and love from afar, wishing him the best, etc. tends to work better than ruminating about what happened, fantasizing, etc.

Hello  :hi:!

I know this isn`t the realization of the century, but sitting with my feelings has made me aware of how much interacting with him was actually hurting me. I was fooling myself into believing I was okay with him being in a relationship, while in reality I still loved him very much. It`s weird. It feels as though I am only `digesting` my feelings now, weeks later. It also feels like my own mind is what is hurting me. 

Take this example. I was thinking of a destination I`d like to visit, maybe even move to some day. Then I remember that he visited this place with his girlfriend, for her birthday (how sweet!). He texted me that whole weekend, all day (kind of odd). My mind imagines them there together, and it hurts now. Maybe there is a way I can reframe these thoughts.

All in all, it sort of makes things better (and I`ll take what I can get  :wee:) because at the very least I`m in a neutral territory of peace without him in my life. Maybe the reframing I can do is to tell myself that I don`t want to make myself feel hurt like that again, and that I won`t be putting myself in that situation.

I do think this is where it's at - focusing on the fact that you do deserve so much better than that. Little morsels and breadcrumbs (messages and contact of any sort) that provide a bit of a dopamine hit - but really serve to prevent you from moving on and being happy, and prevent him from being emotionally available in his current relationship.

Without being certain of his intentions, it's possible he was just using contact with you as a means to not have to focus fully on the demands of intimacy in his current relationship. It's an escape for him in a way. And allows him to stay in the relationship with one foot out as it were...

The resource I mentioned before - the personal development school, you might find it interesting to look at the fearful avoidant attachment. And how they operate in relationships. I think fearful avoidant attachment is like a dulled-down version of BPD. And some experts think that all borderlines will have a fearful avoidant attachment (though there are definitely different opinions on this). Either way, it all makes sense as to why people keep in touch with ex-partners when you look at it through an attachment lens (it's usually an avoidant tactic to avoid true emotional intimacy)... and why we put up with breadcrumbs when you look at it through an attachment lens (because we feel like we have to earn and work for love rather than it just being given)... and that is one of the places where the healing can happen.

I'm saying this whilst also being in the same space as you. Needing to connect again with who I am and remembering what I deserve... you sound like such a lovely person and although I wish it were a simple thing to tell someone that they deserve so much more and it's better to just cut contact and walk away, heal and find someone else... I do understand and empathise so deeply with how hard this is in practice at times.

Thanks for your reply, seekingtheway.

I do want better for myself. I was so focused on the joy that the back and forth brought me that I ignoring my feelings. I put myself in a very vulnerable position that anyone from an outside perspective would agree was not the best choice (I`m sure a lot of you saw this as well, thanks for still being here  :hug:  lol).

I do recognize that how he was behaving wasn`t fair to his girlfriend, nor to me. I don`t think it was intentional though.

That being said, how I`m learning that how I view things matters.

For example, if I see him telling me that his current attraction to his girlfriend is mundane compared to his attraction to me means that he regrets losing me, then 1) I am making assumptions, 2) tying my self-worth to his comments, and 3) keeping myself invested. Instead, I can think that his comment is a reflection of his own unresolved emotions and that it doesn`t define my worth, because I`m focusing on my own well-being. Then his actions become more a reflection of his own emotional state, my self-worth isn`t involved. I can just wish him well on his own journey when it comes to his feelings, without waiting around or having any personal investment in it.


I feel you! It`s a great space to learn from, though. After this latest experience, I feel strongly about the boundary that I don`t want to talk to him while he is in a relationship. I can wish him well, and have space for the memories and love in my heart, but being privy to his daily life hurts me (even if I didn`t realize it immediately). I don`t want to have to second guess everything I have to say, and because I do still care for him, it`s too easy for me to fall into caring `too much`, which isn`t good for either of us.

So yes, ideally I`d have realized this before, but I went through it and can now appreciate why I have to set this boundary.

I think I have to work on being comfortable with the unknown, being better aware of my emotions, focusing on the present, and gently reframing my thoughts when they veer towards negativity. It`s not a bad place to be in  :wee:

Hi Tina, I'll just echo what other's are saying. You seem to have such a big heart, and are so thoughtful. So often I think to myself that I feel just like you do regarding all the mess with the BPD partner. We both have a hard time letting go.

Something that has been forefront in my mind ever since the relationship ended is that SHE would never accept from ME the treatment I got from her.

Never. She would call that abusive behavior and tell a female friend to leave a man who did these things.

Her behavior was objectively abusive. Textbook, objective. No questions about it. The things like yelling, pointing fingers in my face in anger, name calling, put downs, belittling, lying, gaslighting, violently pulling off the highway threatening to make me walk, snapping, explosive anger, mocking my voice, violating explicit boundaries.

And all the other stuff under that umbrella like bread crumbing, invalidation, devaluing, ghosting (ignoring calls and messages for days, a week).

So...why do I miss her? Why do I think I still love her?

For me, it's been a deep deep journey into the self, and why I feel the way I do. This is my work to do.

I haven't tried to contact her at all since the final, awful phone conversation. I'm proud of myself for that. And I still miss her. Again, my inner work to do.

The post above mentioned attachment styles. I have watched that same channel, and there are some good things in there. I'm not certain about the woman's qualifications, but it is a very popular channel.

I have deep, deep attachment to her. I still do. I know that is my issue to explore and understand. Learning about attachment styles is interesting and gives a bridge to deeper things in our family of origin and experiences growing up. So I think that's useful.

Just here to support you and share a little bit if it might be helpful.

Thanks for your reply, jaded7.

Thank you for sharing your experience! It certainly is helpful for me to read, as I`m sure it is for others. I feel less alone in my own experience. I think you`re spot on when it comes the double standard involved. You should definitely celebrate your journey so far, in not contacting her, and in doing inner work. It takes a lot of courage to face our own selves. You`re doing this for you. I`m sorry that you still miss her, I can relate to that feeling quite a lot. It speaks to your capacity to care for someone. Loving and letting go may be one of the harder lessons, that both of us are actively learning.

For me, my `bridge` to deeper things (I like the way you put it!) has been CBT. My first appointment with an experienced CBT therapist is coming up soon. I`m seeing my approach going forward as picking up tools to apply in the here and now. I think that attachment styles are certainly at play here, and I will be sure to mention them during my appointment. Knowing myself though, when I start watching too many of these types of videos, it`s hard for me to stop. Seeing my thoughts and feelings as something I can seperate myself from, that are telling me information but don`t have to mean anything very deep, has been helpful.

I cared for him, I adored him, I mixed up obsession and love. I was so stubborn that I didn`t realize that I was feeling hurt and disappointment. I thought that I was being emotionally mature by telling myself I could be a part of his life, it felt like it was worth it in the moment to ask him what they were having for supper (and tell him I was cooking up pasta), when not so deep down I wanted to be cooking for him! Who was I kidding? I was looking through my memory box, and came accross a letter I had written to him 4 years ago. It was filled with an equal amount of loving, pedestal putting, you are the best thing since sliced bread sentiments. How did I feel reading this? My heart warmed. I have been consistently loving this boy for years. It`s going to take me a while to get over it. I don`t think it`s a fault in my character, but rather a strength. I wouldn`t rather be another away. It really is his loss. I`ll still be me, though, and the fact that I like myself makes it all the more easier to believe that I`ll feel this way again some day, with the right person.

What a profound sea change, and I’m certain that all of us are collectively breathing a sigh of relief.

There nothing on this earth harder to do than walking away, and you are to be commended, as every other life entanglement is as easily accomplished as sipping tea at a church fête by comparison.

Bravo.

Tina my dear..."makes it all the more easier to believe that I`ll feel this way again some day, with the right person." - Yes....1000% yes, but...no more just saying it. Put it into practice and start living it. No more staying stuck in neutral...put the damn car in drive and push that damn pedal to the floor and move forward now. Anything other than a yes sir or that is what I am going to do! will not be accepted  :( :wee: |iiii

Now head up, eyes forward, heart open to new opportunities.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

@Augustine : I am smiling at your reply, I think friends and family also partake in the sighing  lol.

@SC : You got it  |iiii. I am so thankful for this community, I have learned and grown (and learned again, and grown more) in ways that I couldn`t have imagined. It`s like my wounds opened up and healed. They don`t scare me.

I will continue to update here! 

I have taken a lot of comfort in music. Here a song that really speaks to me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8b4gCxXFPyo

Here are the particular lyrics that hit the spot :

Is there a word for when you feel so understood by the lyrics of a song, that they break your heart and simultaneously heal it? I`m being a bit dramatic probably  lol. You never really cared, but I did.

A lot to catch up on! I am hoping that writing about it will help me process.

I`ve been super busy and stressed with work. So that`s one component.

I made the decision to let go of my ex. I wrote that letter, and told myself that I will maintain my boundary of not engaging with him while he is in a relationship. I recognized that it hurt me a lot, even if I didn`t realize it at the time.

I had my first session with my new therapist. It went well, and I will be going forward with CBT. I am looking forward to that. A lot of work to put in, but will be worth it in the long run.

Meanwhile, my ex contacted me saying he broke up with his girlfriend (it seems like she did the breaking up). He became suicidal and is undergoing treatment. I feel mixed emotions. He is being kind, reflective, engaging. I want to be there for him, this is a hard time and I care so much about him. No one should be alone at a time like this. But I don`t want to put myself in a position again where I am getting hurt without even realizing it.

My boundary was that I will not engage with him while he is in a relationship. However, some things he says now do make me sad, like that he is heartbroken that people can come and go from your life (I assume he means his ex). I mean I understand him very much because I feel the same way, but I feel that way about him. He had some reflections about our relationship. He said that our relationship was very intense (probably since my anxiety combined with BPD made for a huge mismatch), he knows I care and he`s thankful. I feel like I let him down.

To recap, you guys were right, he did end up reaching out again.

His gf broke up with him, he was in a very very dark place. He was looking for comfort, and I gave it to him, because I care about him deeply. Late night calls, unconditional support.

He starts talking about working on himself. To get her back. Or to be with someone who will love him. Not someone like me, he might as well add. I tell him he doesn’t have to prove himself to anyone. I can’t hear it anymore. I can’t be there for him. It’s hard to tell him this, since he’s not in a space to receive it.

I know I’m supposed to put myself first. I have no choice. But for me, loving someone means that sometimes you do put their needs ahead of your own, because in many ways them feeling loved is what makes you happy. It’s your pleasure, what your priority is.

He didn’t love me for all these years. I have to keep telling myself that. He cared, at most as a friend. I didn’t let go, and that’s why I feel this way.

Hi Tina,

Your new CBT therapy sounds great - I'm glad you've found something you think will work well for you.

Re your ex - you mentioned you felt like you let him down? In what way did you mean?

It sounds like you've come to some very sad realisations about the relationship in the last few weeks. I can imagine it felt good to some extent that he reached out to you to be there for him when he needed someone. But then in other ways it's highlighted the disparity in terms of how he sees you and the part you play in his life, compared to the part you hoped he would play in yours.

It appears simple really - he's come to you because he needs something, and he probably knows that you're willing to help him. But he hasn't thought about it from your perspective - how him talking about getting his ex back, or finding a new love would affect a previous partner. And it sounds as though he does have an idea of how you feel about him, otherwise there wouldn't have been the blocking shenanigans going on over the recent months. It's this insane inability to hold true empathy that really blows me away sometimes... but that's how it goes with Cluster B personalities so often, so it makes sense it would happen that way, but it's disappointing nonetheless.

The realisation that you weren't loved in the same way that you loved him... all the effort you put into unconditionally and selflessly loving him... but then those stark moments where you realise it's just not returned... that stuff hurts.

How are you feeling about it now? Did you explain to him that you can't be there for him for this? How did he take it?

Hi seekingtheway! Thanks for your reply. I feel understood  :hug:.

It does hurt, and it will probably take time to process. To realize, finally, that I was reading into his confusing and dramatic actions as signs of unresolved feelings for me. In reality, they were all motivated by protecting himself. He had gotten over me a very long time ago.

I had been thinking about how I wanted to tell him how I felt. Unfortunately, it ended up being blurted out as we spoke over the phone. Over messages, I could pause and convince myself I was happy if he was happy, and reply in a supportive way. My voice betrayed me though, and he asked me directly if I still have feelings for him. I couldn`t lie. I said that I knew this wasn`t the best timing since he has a lot going on. He said he felt frustrated because he thought he had my support. He said he can`t say yes or no (to dating I guess) now, and it won`t be something he could revisit in a matter of days, or even weeks. I said I understood, and it was unfortunate because I wish I could be there. I explained that it was around the time his family member passed away that I felt the limitations of how much I could be there for him. He seemed to emphasize that I could do the things I spoke of (cooking for him, giving him a hug, supporting him) as a friend, but again I said there were too many limitations (he wasn`t coming home to me, when he did have a partner they should be his main support, etc.). He said I need to put myself first, and we should end the conversation for now, and I agreed.

After a couple of days, I was willing to revisit the topic. I know I care for him in an unhealthy way, it`s hard for me to imagine him suffering and not at least try to help. I told myself, okay, he doesn`t want to be with me, so what? It`s not the end of the world. However, he said he is now uncomfortable sharing with me. So, I left him two final messages.

In the first message, I told him that he speaks of needing to change himself, to prove himself, to return to his previous partner, as though he wasn`t good enough (this is why I had sort of gotten defensive over the phone I realize). I said that therapy can help him acquire skills and gain insights, but he himself, as a person, is perfect. He doesn`t need to change himself.

In the second message, I said he should be with someone who supports him and cares for him, who doesn`t turn away from him when he is struggling. For many years, we have had ups and downs, yet he always comes back to me when he feels shaky. Why? I provide support, unconditionally, comfort, understanding. That is the basis of a relationship.

He replied `that`s actually really kind, thank you`.

---

It`s like he put me in a silo where all I offer is that support, and when he feels better, he leaves again. This way, he could be with a partner who doesn`t fulfill all his needs, because he had me tucked away for when things got really bad. Which is unfortunate for me, because I only see him and feel attached to him when he is down, but it`s also his loss, because I have so much to offer beyond filling this support role. Even as a friend, I don`t think he reciprocated true friendship, otherwise he`d have asked me how I felt in this role all along.

So I`m ready to move forward, again, with an open wound but also an open heart, knowing that in the end I stayed true to myself by being vulnerable, honest, and most importantly, kind. That`s all the closure that I need.

I am sad that he didn't appreciate who I could have been to him as a partner. In the end, that`s a part of life. I cannot wait for him to have any realizations. Whatever is meant to be will be, and not because I tortured myself along the way. I am hopeful that therapy will help me. I wish him well.

I think you nailed it there in your description about him having put you in a silo in terms of just being there to offer support and then he leaves again once he feels better. That's a pretty powerful realisation.

And it's definitely not a true friendship either – imagine if one of your actual friends treated you that way? Came running when they were down and asking for your time and energy, but refused to engage beyond that, and blocked you every now and then when they felt like it. We simply wouldn't tolerate that from our friends.

It's helpful I think to remember that what someone with BPD is actually looking for is the perfect parent - they are trying to solve or soothe something from their childhood, and their relationships are dependent on someone else meeting the needs of this immature, wounded, underdeveloped part of their brain. It doesn't actually matter what your needs are, as long as you are fulfilling this role. So no, that's not the true definition of a mature romantic love, or anywhere close to it.

Aside from the fact that it feels good to you to be able to support and help, he's not actually meeting your needs at all, so I'm glad that you're seeing it through this lens, as painful as that is.

Sometimes we have to see things from different angles in order for them to settle into us properly... we can know all the things logically and still not be ready to integrate it and accept it and truly leave it behind...

I've been through a similar realisation with my just in the last week. I'll maybe post on it separately another time, but I had the same lightning bolt... he simply didn't and doesn't love me in the same way I loved him. Even though he was the one proclaiming all the amazing things about love forever, soulmates, and never letting me go, he was simply trying to stop himself from being alone. His love for me was never about me. It hurts a lot, I really do get it... to be unseen and used for what you give rather than who you are... that's not love.

Even if he does have some realisations in the coming weeks or months, which might potentially happen if he is on his own, and you're now seemingly leaving him as well... so be prepared?? But even if he did have all the realisations, the question is does he have the emotional maturity or skills to ever have a relationship where you are appreciated for who you are? And there is reciprocity and interdependence? If you try and project beyond the here and now, which is a painful game of cat and mouse... being in a relationship with someone with BPD traits is most likely going to be a painful and exhausting, and one where your need are unlikely to be important.

Thanks again for your thoughtful reply, seekingtheway  :hug:.


It may take me a while to process this, this painful truth that hurts me because on my end I was so utterly devoted to him. I idealized him, what I imagined our life could be if only he `gave me the chance`. I made him into something he was not.


This makes me feel sad for him. That he is on one hand a person lost and looking for love, and yet on the other hand is unable to recognize it, and even sabotages it when it is given to him.

I`m sorry that you are going through a similar situation. You express yourself with such clarity and understanding (which helps me), which I know is only one piece of the puzzle, but it feels like a big one when it comes to coming to terms with these relationships we have found ourselves in.


This makes me ponder, and I will write my thoughts out (although maybe not in a logical order). First, it`s weird for me to not be blocked (which is a sad statement I know  lol). Second, I myself have anxiety/ocd coming into play. I haven`t had enough therapy sessions to feel entirely settled yet, but I really hope that managing that aspect will allow for me to feel more peace. Third, I want to recognize that I have grown a lot and gained skills and have a softness to me that will one day make me a good partner to someone (and which already make me a good friend). I feel like after interacting with him, and having him dismiss me, my belief in myself was affected (which I don`t like!). It made me feel like if only I was a different way (more like his ex, less anxious, more firm, more self-assured) then maybe he`d recognize me. Even if it was true, why would I want to change myself for a relationship? If someone wants to be with someone who has blue hair, cool, I don`t have blue hair but that doesn`t take away from my value. I am soft and caring, doting and maternal, I am working on myself and I don`t need anyone`s approval.

Really thoughtful response seeking. thank you for sharing this.

And Tina, you are doing such good work. It's inspiring. What a great community we have here.

This response mad me think of th time in my early relationship, very early on, when she cried and said "will you take care of me?". I of course said yes, but knowing all I know now I think it's related to what seeking says here about having a parent who magically knows your needs without you asking, who gives up everything in order to 'take care' of you, who doesn't get frustrated with you, etc. My therapist told me that if I ever have a partner who says that to me to just run.

Good work Tina and Seeking.

There is truth there that it is a giveaway if you hear the words will you take care of me? If you hear that you should certainly have alarm bells go off, but of course the context matters and the tone matters and when it is said and applied matters. Nonetheless, the phrase is not necessarily innocent. In truth it is a phrase that screams out lost child and I do not understand how to get my needs met and I do not understand unconditional love.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

I do have a story about this phrase actually... my ex with BPD traits told me that his ex-wife said these exact words to him as well. 'I just want to be cared for'... he said this was after they broke up for 6 months, and when they got back together, this is what she said. But... the context that he didn't tell me at the time, and I worked out afterwards... they broke up because she had an abortion and he abandoned her and ran away to his family because it all felt too much... so they broke up. He always made out that she was this really fragile, vulnerable person with huge anxiety that wanted him to just do the impossible and hold her together. And maybe she is that person. But also... maybe she's not.

But then I found myself saying these exact words to him as well as a few points in our relationship... 'I just want to be cared for'... and so I've taken time to consider what you're saying Jaded, as maybe there's something for me to learn here.

I have a lot on my plate as a single mum with two children, including one child with very high needs and extremely challenging behaviour. I don't have family around, and I also own my own business... I'm stretched... and the times where I felt low or stressed or something big happened... he couldn't be there for me... in fact he created drama if he sensed I wasn't 100% in some way... it made him feel insecure and he would usually create an argument so that whatever unease he was feeling could be brought to the surface. Once I was involved in a car crash with my son in the car too... it was minor but I was shaken up and bruised... I just wanted to go home and sleep.. but when I called him and told him what happened, he started an argument about something really odd... I tried to diffuse and validate how he felt... but said I wasn't able to agree to what he was asking me to do... I asked if we could talk about it another day, but he ended up coming around to my place not long after and literally pushed and pressed me on the matter for more than two hours... I was so exhausted I could barely walk... and eventually I shut the conversation down and said I couldn't do it any longer and needed to sleep... and crawled into bed with no dinner and feeling like absolute crap after that really intense discussion...  this is a situation I just wanted to be cared for.

I think where I'm coming from is that I do actually want to be with a man who is able to be in his masculine, and make decisions and show leadership, make me feel safe and protected... and I do want someone to give me a hug at the end of a difficult day... or make me a cup of tea... or ask if I need anything... to me, that's being cared for. Caring for people comes easy to me - I love being there for the people I love... but I do want it back. So I might say those words too, but in the context of it being a reciprocial thing...

I'm glad you can recognize all of your growth and appreciate that you've clearly got some wonderful qualities for a good healthy relationship. It sounds like a g

Can you imagine if you found a relationship with someone who also likes to give and support? And sees and appreciates what you give, rather than expecting you to empty your reserves to keep him propped up?

I struggled for a long time about the morals of not wanting to be with a partner with BPD. And after wrestling with this for ages I thought that actually I wouldn't 'not' be with someone just because they have BPD. If they were aware of their problems and they were put on the table and we were able to communicate honestly about them, and we had some strategies to deal with it, and I could trust them to not lie and cheat and there was a high level of commitment, I thought I could probably be 'that person' who could handle all of the volatility and emotional dysregulation and insecurity. I wouldn't turn my back on that person and I'd give what they needed. Because everyone deserves love, and it's not fair that the people who had childhood trauma end up being the people who can't have healthy love and just experience abandonment and loss their whole lives... it's just not fair. I do still feel angry at this injustice...

But I think this is my co-dependent mind talking, thinking that somehow I could have been what my ex needed because I think in practice, I'd go like a shooting star - start out strong but burn out pretty quickly... I think part of this process for me has been the need to honour who I am. And I do get stressed and tired when I've got too much on my plate and I sometimes go quiet or cry with frustration. I do feel anxiety when someone pushes me away and distances themselves from me without saying why, and I am sensitive to people being rude or aggressive to me... that's just who I am and I don't think those things are going to change or need to change? I think I do actually need a strong partner, someone who is pretty confident and has a decent level of emotional intelligence. Mainly because I have a family situation that means whoever comes is going to need resilience and the ability to work through a lot of crap... but also because I'm ready for a mature relationship with someone who is available for true intimacy. I really want to experience that.

I wonder what it would feel like to flip the focus onto you and what you want and need from a partner?

Sorry for all the typos and missed words, I should really do a quick edit before I hit post!!!

I think you and SC bring up some important context points about 'will you take care of me?'.

We all want to be taken care of, I think. I do. And by that I mean someone who respects me, is kind, loving, listens. Or, as you say seeking, recognizes when you've had a stressful day and does something for you, or offers to help you or take something off your plate. Show you affection and love.

And yes, reciprocal. There is nothing wrong with wanting to be 'taken care of' in this sense. And one could even argue that it is healthy to state your needs in these areas.

I think 'I want to be cared for' is different from 'will you take care of me?'. All the above is what I would think of as being cared for.

So your BPD ex told you that his ex said to him 'I want to be cared for'. That makes all the sense in the world to me in terms of the above normal needs in a healthy relationship. In my experience, and many others here, our BPD partners were very self-centered, very victim-complex, very demanding to the point where we were walking on egg-shells wondering if we did the wrong thing, said the wrong thing, 'forgot' to do something, ate the 'wrong' thing, 'listened to the wrong podcast', etc. We get criticized and mocked and belittled and yelled at, seemingly for no reason.

I, myself, would have said to my partner...the very one who cried and said "will you take care of me?"....I just want to be cared for. I did say that to my friends and therapist. In the sense of above. My needs never mattered, my interests were stupid and childish, my trips and my work were disrespected, my home town sounds 'no fun'. etc.

" and the times where I felt low or stressed or something big happened... he couldn't be there for me... in fact he created drama if he sensed I wasn't 100% in some way... it made him feel insecure and he would usually create an argument so that whatever unease he was feeling could be brought to the surface."

THIS Seeking, exactly my experience. This is what I'm talking about, they can't be there for US, because it seems to cause them such stress and dysregulation to, in their  minds, 'take care of someone'. Mine actually said to me, several times "I don't HAVE TIME for your emotions!!" Or, since she thought "I ate "sh*tty food" she yelled at me once "I don't want to have to take care of you in the hospital!!!" There it is, clear as day, from the person who demanded I read her mind and just know what she wanted when she had a slight cold, who told me 'nothing and no' when I worriedly called her and asked what I can do, can I bring you something. One day when I was having a bad day, she (kindly) invited me over for lunch (the one and only time) but when I got there she felt angry to me, cold, resentful. Sitting at the table I asked her for another hug, she turned coldly to me  and said 'no.....too needy'.

Caring for people comes easily to me too, Seeking. And I thought it was trait my ex had, I assumed she did. I think you are perfectly normal for wanting someone to care for you, as you would for them.

I hope I didn't make you feel bad, and I hope this makes clear my thinking about the difference between normal wanting to be cared for and BPD-like selfish "will you take care of me".

I feel grateful to read your replies! As another fellow member once said, even after a situation like this has passed, you can still learn from it down the line with fresh eyes.  


I can greatly relate to what you write, seekingtheway. I feel similarly about not wanting anyone`s mental health to be the reason why I wouldn`t want to be with them. I myself have struggles that I am actively working on, I grew up around people with shaky mental health as well, and I work in settings where I interact with people experiencing a mental health crisis. I believe in and have hope for all of us.

I get stuck on the fact that as I learn more about BPD, the more I feel like I could have shown up for him better. I don`t think I understood, nor do I currently fully understand, the extent of his limitations. I think that on one hand it was beneficial; I reassured him, I acted in ways that didn`t make him feel like anything was wrong. I am like this with people in general. Maybe naive would be a way to put it.  And because I see him like this, I feel like he can gain the skills to navigate life. It hurts that he wants to do this to be with someone else, but if I remove myself from the picture, I can be happy for him.

I think flipping the focus onto what I need from a partner is an approach that many counselors have had with me in the past. Maybe I need more therapy to be able to express that I want to be with someone who is strong and healthy and capable. As it is, if I am completely honest, I want to be with someone who I love, and if that love isn`t totally reciprocated then I`m okay with that. I understand now that being there won`t eventually lead to him recognizing me as a person of importance, on the contrary, he seems to have lessened my value because of this. But I`m glad I was there when he needed, and if he needs to think about someone who loved and cared for him (maybe not in the way he wanted) he can conjure me up.

I am struggling not to reach out to ask him how he is. I am not sure whether the way we left things off opens the door to that sort of thing, or if it would be helpful. I will talk about it during my therapy session tomorrow. What do you think?

Hi Jaded - you didn't make me feel bad at all - I totally see where you're coming from and agree with you. It sounds like your ex needed you to be there to meet all of her needs but yours were very much a burden to her. It just reminded me that I'd said that phrase too... and I said it because I was aware that there was a big mismatch in our relationship in terms of me being there to meet his needs, but him not having the capacity or skills to meet mine and I wanted to level the playing field a bit so we didn't fall into co-dependency and cause me to burn out and resent him, just as his ex-wife did. I think he loved me and wanted to meet my needs, I do... but he literally didn't know how to do that without feeling overwhelmed or engulfed. Again, i just always think through the lens now of my ex unconsciously seeing me as a parent figure - that was my function to him, to be strong and steady and present to meet his needs and be the calm in his storm. The moment I wasn't any of those things for even a day, he would become extremely anxious and create a fight... which over time was really damaging to me to have someone causing extra chaos on my lowest, most stressful days... I didn't need him to come and save the day for me, I just wanted him to be around as normal and not cause extra chaos.

Hi Tina - I feel the same way as you about mental health. I have hope for us all as well. I really do and I feel strongly about it and believe there's always space for compassion. But yes, totally agree with you, I don't think that we can truly understand the true limitations of someone with BPD until we're in it. And how those limitations might make you feel, and ultimately in turn limit you from showing up in a way that he needs as well?

I hear what you're saying about being glad you were there for him - I guess that's the selfless part of love, where you're truly just giving it without anything expected in return. But from what you were saying, being there for him was hurting you... which of course it would. So I'd say in response to your question about contacting him - are you ready for the fact that if you open the door to checking on him, you might be hurting your own heart in the process? And also potentially confusing the boundary you've tried to set with him in terms of not being the one to be there for him?

I don't get this stuff right at all, and it's so much easier to look from the outside at someone else's situation, but I hope that what you choose to do protects and takes care of your own heart first and foremost... whilst still leaving that beautiful care and compassion for others in there too, which I have no doubt you'll always do anyway.

Oh good, thank you Seeking. Jus like his ex-wife did, exactly. So you both were being denied the normal support/love/respect that you would get in a healthy relationship. Now, I'm still trying to think about why he told you that. There is a reason he did, I'm not sure exactly what it is. I'm sure it has something to do with trying to portray her as damaged or 'needy'.

Yes... that's why he said it I imagine. He had a big story about her being someone who was so fragile that she couldn't be in a relationship with anyone, that she was a complicated woman with all these mental health issues, and he just wanted to love her back to health... agreed to caring for her, not really knowing what that would involve. He didn't let onto the fact that he might have added to any of her stress, he just said that she was someone who had a very thin skin and couldn't handle life. At times he even said she was a narcissist.

But I weirdly got inside info from some of her friends that she went to a really dark place when she was with him, but she's doing great now she's not... that he was like a child and didn't contribute to anything, and they even said he turned into 'a monster' right after they married... she had a full breakdown at the end and then she left him.

I guess I believed his story because I wanted to... but it's clear she and I had a similar experience, except I didn't marry him or have a child with him. And it's also become clear to me that he's since labelled me in the same way as her - because of the reaction of anxiety and upset I had to the insane push/pull at the very end.

Sorry Tina - hijacked this thread... I'll have to post about some of this stuff separately...

Tina, back to you here!

These two things you wrote resonated with me.

-that you feel you could have shown up for him better
-thinking about what you need from a relationship

In my opinion, these are two things that will eventually happen to us in these relationships. Because they tend to have needs, often unexpressed, or expressed and you try to fulfill them..but we 'fail' at meeting those needs, time and time again. Not actually failing, but in their eyes failing. Because they often expect some mind reading due to a a fear of vulnerability, which means they are afraid to express their needs (for fear of 'rejection' or perceived abandonment). This equals you can't 'win'. You can think that your'e doing what they need, but you will be wrong because they have a greater need for you to be wrong. Or , when they don't express the 'need' and expect you to mind read, you will then 'fail' them. All of this results in US feeling like we didn't show up for them. But in reality, adults express their needs clearly and don't expect mind reading, and will actively allow their partners to show up for them.

In my case, the last few words my ex said to me were "I need someone who shows up for me". When I did everything possible to be there for her, and would have done anything she asked or needed. And "I need someone who doesn't melt under pressure", because I would express frustration and confusion at her behavior, or hurt at her words and actions. In our last time together she snapped at me cruelly in front of her family, and I raised my eyebrows in surprise she would do that in front of her Mom, Dad, sister and niece- that became "you melted in to the floor at the show".

Set up, then pull the ball away. (Lucy and Charlie Brown).

The second is that we tend to put the other person's needs ahead of our own, because maybe we feel like we will get the love we want if we prioritize that person's needs. I know for a fact that was part of my struggles.

Combine those two, and we end up very confused, very much in a 'down' position since we are told we are constantly failing them, even though we love them and are trying to do our best.

I think it's the nature of these relationships, and that in turn puts people like us in a difficult position. We try and try, but can't seem to get it right. At the same time, our own needs are not acknowledged or perhaps are and mocked. Which tends to create confusion and a 'striving' feeling trying to make them realize that we love them and want to be there for them.

Does this make any sense to you in your situation? Apologies for hijacking your thread.....how are you today?

No need for apologies my friend! On the contrary, I greatly value these exchanges and am immensely grateful for this space where we can all share  :wee:.

It does make sense in my situation. Today, I feel happy :) . I see the light at the end of the tunnel. I understand that this feeling may not last forever, but I am working towards having the tools to navigate whatever situations life throws at me.


Ah, boundaries. You and me both `don`t get this stuff right`  lol. Here is my thinking right now:
- I pondered how I am as a person. I am very soft, sensitive, and appeasing. I like to dote on people, and during conflict I want to bridge the divide by going towards the other person. For a long time, I wanted to be different; I wanted to be strong and be able to put people in their place. While I can certainly work on becoming more assertive, I love myself as I am. He certainly does have a valid point in saying that someone who is more like my second description may be what he needs in a partner. I don`t think I can provide that, and it`s okay;
- I also realized that a lot of what I was categorizing as romantic feelings for him would better be considerd unresolved feelings. The time we truly seperated (which I consider to be when he started his latest relationship) was honestly pretty traumatizing for me. I have since forgiven him for the things he said, for my own sake (I don`t even think he remembers), but when I view those emotions as being a tether in my brain to the past, I realize that I wouldn`t want to be with him now, either;
- Of course, there is some hesitancy in these realizations. Their timing is a little opportunistic in the sense that if having romantic feelings for him was what was getting in the way of talking to him, well now I have this reasoning that allows for me to bypass that and be there for him;
- So, back to boundaries. I think that if I maintain my role as support, and not friend with him, I am okay. That`s an important distinction. Again, it`s not super clear, as after I told him I can be his support he said that he doesn`t feel comfortable. Then he said that he will sit with it. Then he sent me an article about BPD, and we`ve been exchanging a couple of thoughts. It`s honestly pretty similar to an exchange we`d have here on the forum. My T said it is important for me to ponder what boundaries would serve me, what obstacles might come up (even if it`s something like I`d feel distressed and anxious). Time will tell, and I`m paying attention to how I feel. I feel supported by her, and by this community.

I had a (sort of) productive conversation with him about intentions, expectations, and needs.

I said that my intention was to support him, and that I don`t have romantic feelings for him. I asked him what made him reach out to me, and he said that he didn`t have to worry about what his girlfriend thought anymore and he knows that I am supportive of him. He said he understood if it was confusing to me because he reached out to me in his time of need. I also expressed that it makes me sad when he blocks me, and that I will need to implement boundaries on my end for how much I can be there for him (but that I will communicate them). I asked him what does he see me as in his life, and he said he`d have to think about it.

I realize this may be an ongoing conversation, but for now I am happy. I can focus on my own goals and friendships and hobbies. When speaking to him, there are so many aspects of what he says that remind me of my own unhealthy ways of thinking from the past. Even how he hopes he can rekindle his relationship, I can relate to that, and see from an outside perspective how that can even be a good motivator at times to make healthy changes. I feel like a cheerleader of sorts.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/what-does-it-take-be-relationship

I`ve read this article many times. I almost feel like I should read it every day! I think that the relationship skills and self-awareness that I can gain from this will be valuable for me to bring to the table in all my future relationships  :wee:

I asked him how he was feeling today, we spoke briefly about his new medication. His answers were on the dry and short end. My instinct was to feel like I had done something wrong; he had been so interactive and willing to share just a few days ago! Initially, I wanted to keep pushing for more contact and communication. Instead, I asked him `your answers seem short! is this one of those days where you`d like more space?`. He said yes, and I replied `thanks for being honest, I`ll let you reach out when you feel ready.`.

This made me feel better for a few reasons. I got to the bottom of what I was feeling faster, and I feel like I created my own peace of mind in allowing him to reach out instead of wondering when I should do it.

Very impressive Tina!

I will admit to feeling mad at him for reaching out to you when he 'needed' you, even while he was with the other person, but especially now that the other person is gone. I would hate for you to get hurt again, but it seems like you are doing very well with you emotions.

Thanks for your reply, jaded! I think that I would feel the same way if a friend was in my position. As I mentioned, I am working with a therapist now, and hopefully over time this will help with my perspective which I am aware often doesn`t put me in a secure position.

I am grateful for this community. Things with my ex are up and down. That is the baseline. For example, he started the day by saying we can`t be friends, later explaining it`s because he doesn`t want to become dependent on me, and finally called to apologize and thank me for being there. I recognize that I didn`t react as I once would, and I`m happy with that. I recognize that the anxiety that I felt in the past when he`d make this sort of announcement isn`t out of love or fear of missing him entirely; I get anxious because of the unknown of when if how he will contact me again. I think that`s something I want to work on; being okay if he did leave for good. Things have definitely shifted on my end, towards what exactly I`m not sure. I remember when I started posting on this forum, I hoped that after a few months everything would `smooth over`, and an indication of doing better would be that I didn`t post as much. What I`m finding instead is that I post here regardless. The relationship will not reach a perfectly pleasant state where I don`t to some extent benefit from a support group. The ups and downs come with the territory of these interactions.

That's a solid truth isn't it? That interactions with your ex or anyone with BPD is always going to be extremely up and down, and it will take a lot of support and insight into yourself so that you've got a chance of making sense of it, or to be able to withstand it. Because instability creates instability.

You mentioned that it's the 'not knowing what comes next' that causes the anxiety for you. I really identify with this statement. I feel exactly the same about my ex, and I actually said that to him in our last interaction... because I felt so so anxious that day, and it was a rare day when he was receptive to that and cared about it... and I told him it was it was so hard when he reappears and then disappear the next minute... because it left me with this anxious feeling of never knowing what was coming next. It's not secure, it's not stable, it's not predictable... so then what happens is we start coming in with anxious reactions and behaviours to try and create that stability and security, to figure out what's happening and state our position so it feels clear from our side at least. And they react to that by pushing away...

The thing is, in the dynamic of push and pull... they are more likely to come back and want more interaction when you push away completely. But there's no healthy resolution to this toxic dance. It's just a dance of fear and anxiety on either end... until one person takes control over the anxiety and makes a decision based on what is truly best for them. And that's what you're trying to do now...  it's so great that you're seeing a difference in your reactions based on where you were and where you are now.

Thank you for your reply, seekingtheway :) . I can relate to the way you describe the anxiety. I recognize that it is this feeling that is at the core of my attachment, and what I most need help with. It`s easy when it is less prevalent to feel like I am `better`, but it inevitably comes back (sometimes in a matter of hours). Posting here, going to therapy and being overall busy with life have been game changers over the past few weeks. During my last session, we (well mostly my therapist) described my own cycle of `trigger-anxiety-compulsion` that I now realize is activated after almost every interaction with him. I remember when I was talking to him a few months ago, I was struggling with `picking up` the conversation when it had come to a natural end. I kept trying to keep it going. This was anxiety. It`s in the `in-between` moments that my pattern is activated, and I worry that I won`t hear from him, that it`s our last interaction, etc. My goal is to sit with this feeling for longer and longer periods, instead of acting from that place. This is where mindful activities, exercise, etc. come into play. I`ve been letting the conversation petter off, and haven`t been asking him how he is doing as often. I told myself that if I don`t hear from him after 3 days, I can reach out. I know it doesn`t sound like a lot, but it`s a start. As a result, I do feel like the relationship is a lot `lighter`, and so far, he`s reached out before the 3 day period that I set for myself.

Another goal is to weed out how exactly I view this relationship. There are certainly many good aspects to it; it makes me happy to help him when I can. I remind myself regularly that he is going to feel better and meet someone new inevitably, and probably distance himself, and that`s okay. I am writing about how our interactions make me feel. His (now ex) girlfriend came to drop off his stuff yesterday. I felt a peak of anxiety when he told me this, unclear as to why. I asked him how he felt, told him he is capable of handling the interaction with grace and strength, and told him that he could reach out to me if he needed support. We spoke for a bit, the conversation pettered off, and I didn`t check in later to ask how it went. This was very difficult for me!