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She turns 12 in two weeks, a 6th grader, close enough.

We referred her to school counseling based upon our daughter's struggles with attention at school. Her self diagnosis as being ADD was a bit concerning for an 11yo. Kaiser referred us to the school.

D12 is a 4.0 student and she's been a table leader, especially for math, since at least 5th grade at the primary school. The teacher and counselor reached out to us to have a meeting this week to discuss issues. I asked if she were alright and the school person said she was OK, this was just a check-in.

Last night, mommy emailed her teacher to say that D expressed that she was overwhelmed and stressed out. Mommy asked is something was going on at school. I picked up our daughter today on early release and asked her about it. D told me that mommy worries, but she also told me that she told her mom that she needed time to do homework, but that mommy told her that they were going to grandma's. They have a cousin. It's a small house and there's no space or peace.

D told me something similar a month ago. That she asked to go directly home from after-school, but that mommy wanted to eat out. D felt that when they got home, it was baths and bedtime and was stressed out.

D would benefit from joining our meeting. Mommy will do it virtually, but I can be in person with D. She's already into covering for her mom, and I'm cognizant of parental alienation. Yet I'm tempted to tell D to be honest: that her mother isn't listening and is invalidating her (and blaming her troubles on mom's imagined issues at school).

I've also thought about emailing or calling her mom to talk about it.

Your D sounds like a very bright child. Surely she knows something is going on but probably not what, or in detail- and information shared with her should be age appropriate.

It's about the age where she could benefit from some understanding of her mother's behavior- but I think a counselor would be the one to do that in an age appropriate manner. If you do, it could be triangulation.

She's possibly also experiencing hearing too much from her BPD mother. By my teens, BPD mother would confide in me- and it was not appropriate information.

I recall an incident at the dinner table where I felt emotionally "older" than my mother. I was the same age as your D- 12. I was telling Dad about what I was learning in school. Dad seemed interested in what I was saying. BPD mother began to say things that would direct his attention to her. I thought it was childish. It was a strange feelings.

I was a good student but I also daydreamed a lot- this was a survival behavior- I was able to "tune out" what was going on at home. ADD was not as commonly suggested when I was a child- but I think a teacher would have suggested it. I was inconsistent with turning in homework. They had no idea what was going on at home. I can see why your D might have come up with that idea since it is more common now,  but other issues can appear to look like ADD when they are not.

By my teens, I was "useful" to BPD mother. I could do things around the house. Nothing wrong with teens doing household tasks. The work load wasn't the issue- it wasn't a lot- as BPD mother had household help- but it was a sort of emotional caretaker role. BPD mother didn't do household tasks. We didn't know what kind of mood she would be in when we came home from school. Your D may be experiencing parentification.

It's good that your D is a strong student. Overall, I was as well. School was a source of affirmation. Your D also has you. At the time for me, BPD mother was confiding in me. I think if Dad took me aside and told me the truth, it might be confusing to have both parents do that. I think - and you know your D best- it may be that she needs her own counselor to tell her.

I think it's a good idea for the meeting to go as planned with both parents and hear what the counselor has to say. After hearing what the counselor says, you might want to have your own meeting with them without your ex- meet as adults. Then you can decide from there what the best next step for your D is.

When my family court got a new and better judge, they updated a lot of online guidelines.  I was surprised the guidelines weren't obligatory.  No wonder my ex got away with so much.

Back to topic.  The new guidelines, which never mentioned mental illness impacts, grouped children into three age groups.  The youngest up to three years were to have frequent parental exchanges. The elementary ages would do best with equal time, more or less, so the 2-2-3 schedule was advised.  As children reached their teen years it could switch to alternate weeks but also it noted that in those years the kids would do well with a "home base" with less time with the other parent.

So, is it time to morph the parenting schedule toward your children having a home base with you?  Just a thought to ponder.

When my son was nearly 12 court ruled that ex's poor behaviors (disparagement) merited me getting majority time.  School issues were also revealed and that must have weighed heavily on the magistrate's mind since my majority time was only ordered during the school year.  Summers remained with the 2-2-3 schedule.  It puzzled me, I had been disparaged year-round, it was like school had more import than me.

I'm freshly divorced and my two daughters are young adults, but we still have these conversations since my oldest is BPD like her mom.  The approach I've taken more recently is telling my ex that our kid is struggling with (whatever) and asking the ex what she thinks we should do about it.  Sometimes the problems are because of the ex but I don't say that...I just state that "Our daughter is going through this and wanted to get your advice on how to help her."

By including my ex and validating her opinions, these conversations go so smoothly I'm almost shocked.  And if your ex paints your child white, all the better since she'll want to participate in finding solutions.  Because here's the thing, if she can go to the kid and make things better, then she's the hero and you're just the deadbeat dad who has to rely on her for everything.  And that's fine, let her believe whatever she wants if the kid is getting what's needed.

Leading with blame has had the opposite effect though, so tread lightly there.  Humility is the path- I hope that helps!

I hear what you're saying... Wisemind.

I did WFH today since we had a 130PM meeting with the school for D. Mommy called me about 0930 when I was walking the dog and talking to a neighbor, a 73yo grandma who's spritely for her age and looks 10 years younger. I put it on speaker and the neighbor listened.

Mommy has had trouble with D's defiance. Since I had them last weekend, she asked me if I'd said things to D or talked about mommy to the friends in the valley we visited this past weekend. No. Her name didn't come up. We talked for a while and I told her that D wasn't perfect at my home either, aggro with her brother and sometimes me.  I didn't say "I felt the need to call you because I dealt with it." I also ran into the mother of one of D's friends at 7-11 in the morning. 12 year old girls being defiant isn't out of the norm. We shared stories for about 20 minutes.

I picked up D and we had the virtual meeting. D was shy so I turned off the camera, mostly. D is a 4.0 student. She has concentration issues. I encouraged her to speak up so adults didn't make decisions for her. Mommy went on about ADHD, a self diagnosis, and dyslexia, and here I told D to speak up: she didn't feel that she had that anymore.

It ended with me directing the group to postpone any evaluations until August. 504 and an IEP were discussed. Really? We wasted school resources for an IEP evaluation for our son who is diagnosed with ASD1. It wasn't needed. As S14 says, "I'm just a normal kid!"

D also said in the session that the only people that she trusted were me and our dog. *sigh*

I've been putting up with their mom's blame for a decade. And she used to tell me, "the kids defend you!" So she was the one talking smack about me to them. I'm tired of it, but I suppose 4 more years I can make it.

Teachers also reported I didn't always pay attention in school but I don't have ADD. I think my BPD mother would have been happy with someone labelling me- rather than wonder if it had anything to do with the situation at home.

I think it's good that your D as a 4.0. It's a source of affirmation for her. It's also a source of identity for BPD mother. The few times we might have said something about our home life were dismissed as "it can't be that bad- look how you kids turned out". Yes, I was the kid who smiled at school, seemed happy- nobody had a clue. But it also was because school was an emotionally safe and happy place for us- home was not.

On the other hand, be aware of perfectionism. If having a 4.0 is the main affirmation, what happens if she ever makes a B? Chances are- as her schoolwork becomes more challenging- she may find herself in a situation where she doesn't get an A. Of course, a GPA isn't the only aspect of a person- it doesn't define her- but if it's her main source of affirmation, that "B" could be a difficult situation for her.

My teen years with BPD mother were difficult. Teen agers can be challenging to even the best of parents. I think there's a difference between the kind of behaviors one does not tolerate and the "normal" teen behaviors. For my BPD mother, event a small transgression could cause her to react. I think we have to take a perspective - if the basics are there- the child is making good grades, has friends, isn't doing destructive or dangerous behaviors- then the occasional teen moodiness is just part of the age.

I forgot to mention that it was agreed by all to put her into advanced math which is termed AP though it isn't college credit at this age.  It's the calculus path into high school and in 7th grade, they do a summer session to start to teach 7th/8th early, and freshman algebra in 8th. Her brother has been in that program so hopefully this will help challenge her. Her brother will do sophomore math next year in 9th. S14 was Mr. Calculator in primary school. Only last year did I realize that D has some talent as well. Must be a recessive gene as neither me nor mommy is good at math.  :)

My one claim to school fame was that in 9th grade I was the best of two classes of Plane Geometry, as it was then known.  I still have the school medal somewhere.

Looking back over the decades I now realize I was good with patterns... geometry and its theorems, sines, cosines and tangents.  Also spelling and in 10th grade Spanish II for verb conjugation.  I recall one test I only missed an accent mark, the teacher graded on a curve based on the best score, mine was 201.5 out of a possible 202, the other kids were so upset!

Anyway, back to math... With Algebra 1 & 2 I was a B student.  I never took Calculus since I switched to Electronics in the final two years of high school.  So I borrowed a Calculus volume but I got lost about 20 pages in.  Skimming was not enough for that tome.

I can feel for your daughter.  I recall one girl in one of my classes years later lamented to me that she had been so upset, she would study and study then I'd breeze into class like it was nothing hard.  I recall that I never boasted.

But History was so dull, dates and places.  Also very upsetting since even so I worked hard there too.  Only twice did I ever get a D in the final semester exams two years in a row.  I was stunned that my competition was future cosmeticians, auto body and auto mechanics.  Worse, school was on summer break and I had no one to complain to.  Now that was more distressing than anything else.

Another difference between me then and me now.  In English I struggled with 'composition'.  My mind would draw a blank.  Now, oh my, you can't stop me!

This isn't getting better. Wednesday was our switch day so I had them last night. Mommy now has them until Monday morning.

D12 seemed OK, but when we were leaving for a track meet for S14 this afternoon, D12 didn't want to go. She refused to put on her shoes. We had to get him to his meet. We were running late. I put her shoes on the car and was in the verge of carrying her to the car but she finally walked. She cried silent tears on the way, running down her face.

She told me that she wanted to just stay with me that she was afraid of mommy and her anger. She bought up past incidences (like where D then 13 accidentally slapped her and she punched the wall instead of him) and yelling at both of them... I'm not sure how often this happens. D12 brought up an event from 2 years ago where she hit them both. I asked her if there were anything recent. No. The body keeps the score  :(

S14 seems OK, I asked him. Ear buds and Spotify likely help. I'm not sure how to proceed. This isn't Canada where she can decide at 12 where to live. This isn't going to get better either.

I asked her if she thought that family counseling would help and she said yes, after a pause. We went through this 2 years ago. Mommy joined one meeting in person, and one more virtually, but found excuses (work) not to attend 3 final sessions.

Fix the kid. My mom did this to me, abandoning me in family counseling. My ex also did this to me. I'm not sure how to approach this... an email to her mom to start? Or let it more blow up?

D12 asked me about anger. If told her that mommy and I grew up in angry households, smacking for me and La Chancla (Mexican mom meme where they throw shoes at their kids)  for her. I didn't mention her violent grandpa.

I felt kind of helpless when I was wiping away her silent tears in traffic on our way to the meet.

 :hug:

We're in it right now too. I hear you about wanting to fix it but feeling so helpless. It's good that she let you carry her and be with her while she cried.

I wish I could fix it for you, too.

State laws differ in every state of course, but at this point I think would angle for full custody. With the ages of your children their words actually become a lot more useful in court. In due time if this persists you know quite well your ex will F :cursing: and you will get the kids if you want to go that route. However you go about your business and how you want to handle things is of course your business and I support you regardless.

I helped coach a close friend of mine to getting 50/50 so no child support and told him take it for now. As I explained to him you have no choice, but to play the long game and let the ex make the mistakes you know she will inevitably make, but when she does make the mistake pull no punches and go for the gusto because at the heart of it is what is best for the children and that is not being with someone with anger/rage issues and turbulent behavior.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

We grew up being afraid of my BPD mother. We are still afraid of her in ways. If my parents had divorced, I'd have asked to live with my father. It felt as if I was being judged for "feeling (or saying) things like this" about my mother as if we were to blame but we were scared of her.

Is there any way the kids could speak up to someone about their preferences that could enable you to have more custody time (or all)?

I got an email from mom late last night. D12 was upset when I left the track meet.  I saw my son's mile race but didn't feel like waiting around for the relay later as there was no where to sit.

She said D was upset and worried about my health. If course, but likely more because she knows that she'll be stuck with mommy full time if I croak early.  I'll respond and tell mommy what happened and encourage them to get counseling together. I'll still ge blamed somehow...

Why would I start alienating after 10 years?

No matter what Mom does or doesn't do, you wouldn't be the one "abandoning" D12 in family therapy.

Maybe the best you can do is propose family counseling for all of you, and then let the chips fall with however Mom chooses to be involved.

Yes, the issue is between Mom and D12, but I think a good counselor could still work with you and D12 to navigate that, even if/when Mom stops participating. That's on Mom if she doesn't want to be part of a solutions process. You, D12, and the counselor can still come up with a path forward for D12's schedule and residence without Mom's input, right?


Sounds like deflecting: "Oh yes, I agree with you there's a problem... but there's no way it's me. It's, um, your health that she's worried about." Probably was the safest option for D12 to bring up to Mom.

I guess I don't see a downside to you being involved in family counseling?

We went down this path over 2 years ago. And recently in school counseling. D12 isn't honest or trusting enough to open up so it's been a waste of time.

Especially with Kaiser who will shuffle its into parenting classes like before. I have the means... I could look into private counseling at $200/hr... (or more here).

Yeah, the trust issue is big. No sense just restarting with a new family T every 2 years because Mom won't stick it out.

Can you get D12 an individual counselor for the long-term (versus family counseling, which, like you said, Mom won't really stick with)? Would she be open to that/see it as helpful? Kind of accept that Mom is who she is and chooses not to participate, and stop doing abrupt family T start/stops because of Mom, and set up D12 with someone she really can connect with and trust for years? IDK -- it isn't easy stuff.

Direct cash payment might decrease the hourly rate.

Here's a lesson I've learned the hard way.  Focus on what you can control.  Let everything else go.

What can you control here?  You might think, "Not much."  But that's not true.

You can be a great dad and let your kids know that you'll always be there for them.

You can give physical, emotional, and financial support.

You can try to mend the relationship with mom for better/more open communication.

Again, that might not seem like much.  But to the kids, that's everything knowing that they always have a parent on their side.  Most of us took that for granted growing up because we had two great parents.  Others had a tougher time for whatever reason with one parent struggling.  Some had no parents and grew up hard.  But we were all looking for that rock in our lives, that source of stability...that's the most important thing.  So continue being that rock.

For the counseling part, you know that it doesn't work without a willing participant.  So tell your kids that.  If they ever want to talk things out with a professional, you know someone who is an awesome person.  Leave it at that...it's like leaving the door open or the light on.  That's what you can control so you offer it.

For the mom, you can only control your side of the communication.  This is a hard one because I'm in the exact same place.  Yet you must extend the olive branch and work on that relationship, to be supportive, etc.  It stinks, I don't like my ex as a person anymore and I don't want to be friends.  But I have to be because the kids always come first.  So I'm kind, I'm supportive, and I now get that same stuff back (to some extent).  If I need to pick up the phone and call my ex, she'll answer and we can have productive conversations.  That makes this 10,000x easier...even if I do have to play therapist sometimes.

Again, focus on what you can control.  Let go of everything else.  You've got this!

This is what I did when my divorce was a couple years in my past, best I could get from the divorce was Shared Parenting on virtually equal terms.  I filed for Change of Circumstances and gained full custody when he was 9 years old.  Her disparagement and other behaviors didn't improve so I went back for majority time.  He was nearly 12 years old when the court allowed mother to start an in camera interview.  It was just the magistrate, the GAL and my son.  He never spoke of it later but the decision referred to how our child responded when each  parent was discussed.  With his mother, he couldn't look at them.  That 'spoke' volumes.  I got majority time.

It's your decision as to what you will do.  But you know this won't go away.  Your D12 is apparently more sensitive than her brother, or feels more impact from her mother's actions, or maybe she does get more focus and reactions.  Whatever.

As I recall, back then you managed the separation without triggering the ex overmuch.  You might be able to finesse another adjustment that addresses the current distress.  Or maybe it will need to be addressed in family court with support.  Most therapists refuse to testify to the court to avoid lawsuits or licensing complaints.  Could a GAL help bridge the gap, where the GAL gets input from both counselors and the children?  She's old enough too in case an in camera interview with the court is appropriate, though your ex likely would not push things that far.

My family court did a revamp of their website articles years ago.  It now recommends older children do well with a "home base".  Your D12 will soon be a teenager, from here (on the outside looking in) it seems time for them to spend more time with you.

I know you don't want to stir up things, but this may be the time to step forward?

The school called us today, mommy first (naturally *eyeroll*) then me. D isn't asthmatic, but has allergy issues. She wanted me to pick her up 30 mins before school ended.  She had just run a mile and also has an issue with heat. I work hybrid and I'd done my time onsite so I was home, WFH. I told them to keep her. Then D called me from her friend's cell to pick her up. Mommy called as I was going out the door since she missed the school call.

She told me D was very upset after I left yesterday, so in told her that I had responded to her email (after lunch before I left work) and summarized about what D12 said, that she was crying, etc. Mommy admitted, "yes, she tells me all of the time how she'd rather stay with you."

I talked to D this afternoon and she suggested that we go back to how it used to be: 3-2-2-3 (3s being Friday through Monday morning). At the time, S had an issue switching week to week.  He's an Aspie. I don't think he'd like changing it back, and I told D that it would be weird to have her on a different schedule.

D said that she just wanted to see me more though I said both schedules were 50%. I asked her if she could get through the next 4 months. I'm leaving it up to mommy if she wants to sign D up for after school, but S14 will be in high school, 2 blocks from the middle school and the high school is 3 blocks from my house. So it makes sense for the kids to come here also on mom's days starting in August. The schools seem to get out around the same time, so D can walk down the block to the high school. We'll probably have to get her a phone a year earlier than we had planned.

I remember when I told my lawyer I wanted alternate weeks since (1) the Custody Evaluator recommended equal time and (2) alternate weeks meant fewer opportunities for ex to mess with exchanges.

The CE said (1) frequent exchanges are good for younger children.  My lawyer asked (2) do you want the court to believe you feel your child should be away from you for longer periods?  Son was 6 at the time and we did 2-2-3 schedule for years.  Even when I got majority time during the school year, we continued 2-2-3 during summers until he outgrew the system.

I'm assuming you're doing alternate weeks now?  What is best for your D12?  She's virtually begging for a change, you know best the whens, whys and wherefores.

We've been doing alternate weeks for... 5(?) Years now? With the Wednesday switch day. We'll see how things go this summer where we'll have to split the breaks in between school and "camp" and camp and school.

Mom got wiggy  with me today when I dropped off S14 at the mall to hang by himself for half an hour before his buddies showed up to see a movie.

For now, I don't have to do anything. Mommy gave up this week.

She called me yesterday (Sunday) to ask if I could keep the kids on our Wednesday switch day. She is struggling as a manager at work with 2 of her direct reports quitting (one an HR drama but her boss and HR backed her) and the 3rd fired for good cause. She's stressed out and can't deal with D12's aggressiveness. D tells her to her face "I hate you and don't want to live with you." Mommy responds, "I get that you hate me, but I love you." Her mom paused and was crying on the phone. I felt badly for her.  

Then she told me that she told D that she's been tempted so much to hit her like she was hit as a kid but holds back. Belt, stick, shoes.

I picked up D12 from school today and asked about it. She was happy, but then said that she didn't want to talk about it. I persisted. D12 said that she was sick of "mommy being pissed off all of the time," and that she was frustrated that when told to do chores and promised a break, that mommy would tell her to stop and do more chores. This was one example. I interpret that to mean that D feels that she can't relax around her mom. Maybe D is entitled?

S14 chimed in, "that's because daddy let's you get away with things like a lot of screen time." He forgets that he is also.

I assigned her minor sweeping, her laundry, and some swiffereing in the living room and kitchen when we got home. I warned her about less screen time and more chores. She didn't argue and happily did them.

I told her that we're taking mommy out for brunch on mother's day. D12 said "no." I said yes we are and you're coming. At least that's almost a week's rest from her mom.

I don't see this getting better unless mom steps up. I don't expect as much from D12, but I do some. I told her that mommy had legal responsibility for her for 6 more years and that she's her mom forever. I reminded her again that personalities don't change. Maybe TMI, but I told her I experienced much of the same things, but it got better when I learned ways on my own to deal with it better.

This morning, I was copied on an email to D12's teacher where mommy admitted having trouble, that D would rather stay "with her dad" and that D12 was still angry at her when mom smacked her with a slipper a year or so ago. TMI! Don't volunteer info to a mandatory reporter! That is only child abuse here if you leave a mark, but still... mommy asked for a better counseling referral.

Oh, dear...liberty is difficult, under the best of circumstances.

You can be your D's rock right now.  She needs a stand-up parent. She trusts you, and she does not trust her mother. She is intuitive -- you can trust her instincts.

I agree. If my parents were divorced, I'd have wanted to live with my father. Even if there wasn't physical abuse, there was verbal and emotional abuse and parentification. BPD mother "confided" in me as if I was another adult and it was inappropriate.

I don't hate my mother but as a teen, I didn't understand that she has a mental illness. I thought she was acting that way on purpose. Considering her behavior- I said I hated her too. How much of a teen's "I hate you" is teen age hormonal acting out or due to what is going on is a judgment call. My mother called it "mother daughter teen age trouble". Yes, I heard a rare "I hate you" as a mother of teens when I said "no" to something but that was teen age hormones. What went on between me and BPD mother as a teen was not the same.

Your D is only 12. This is the best she can do to express her discomfort at BPD mother's house.

I see a lot of kindness and insisting your D spends time with her mother - such as the mother's day brunch. My father did this too "of course your mother loves you". For some reason, it was expected that I take on the responsibility for a better relationship with my mother as if it was my fault that we didn't have a better one. I believed that too, and tried to be "good enough". But it's my mother who has a disorder that affects relationships and while I can make an effort to keep the peace, I can't make it better because I can't change her disorder.

Something to think about- you didn't want to live with their mother- so why should your D want to live with her?

I don't think a 12 year old is capable of making adult decisions, but she also is expressing something in her own way- something isn't OK with her mother. This is actually a boundary. Her mother isn't someone she is comfortable with. Yes, she needs to treat a parent with respect for being a parent, but one can't force anyone to like someone else.


 

I assigned her extra chores today with no complaints though she sure grumble a little when I told her that she didn't pick up her room enough. Mom thinks she didn't do anything wrong sharing TMI with the teacher. She's a professional who works with schools after all. I said it, I'm not going to argue the point.

I dropped off S14 at his track meet. We picked up his buddy walking in the hood. They walked home together. Mommy showed up at the meet near the end, and subtly criticized me for not staying there 3 hours to support his two races. She gave S14 a snack to take home to D12. I gave it to her, saying it was from mommy. D12 rolled her eyes but ate it (I had fed her dinner, but teenager appetites, you know).

She told me this morning that she wasn't ready to go back until next month. Mommy emailed the teacher that she was taking D in for her check up in over 2 weeks and would ask for a referral.n the teacher just emailed back that we could call mental health based upon her experience when she left her husband.

Logistically, since I can do hybrid WFH, I can deal with it,  but I'm wondering what mommy thinks about next week, her week... I'm threading the spar or needle(there's a skater term for this?? That's not it), triangulating.... not all triangulation is bad.

Not when it's truth. Maybe I am reading more in your posts, but you seem to be protective of your ex- and doing things like a mother's day brunch for her even though your D doesn't want to go. That is very nice and in ways, it's good to insist on respecting our mothers but is it also minimzing your D's concerns?

I do think it's difficult to discern between teen age anticts and what is a red flag but your D repeatedly saying she doesn't want to go back to her mother's house is something to consider.

There's a quality to doing chores. I didn't mind chores as a teen and as a parent, I think kids having chores is important. I would have wished for the chance to have a "normal" routine with chores. But doing things for my mother is one of her ways of getting her emotional needs met and then, she'd be critical of whatever I did. There is also a "superiority" thing with her- you do the chores she won't do because she doesn't do these things.

I didn't feel that way when doing chores for my father. Even as an adult, cooking something for him, or doing something around the house. He would just be happy with that. But doing things for my mother becomes complicated as she has stipulations and is critical.

Your D may be too young to make adult decisions but if she repeatedly says she doesn't want to live with her mother, I think she may have reasons to consider.

Taking the other parent out for MD and FD on opposite parent custody weekends we've done for years. FD this year is also on mom's weekend. To whit: I couldn't care less about FD (or my birthday), but other people do so I go along for the rides. Leaving D home would be weird, but there is also the risk for public drama (from D12).

I told her today that she was going back with mommy on Monday, her week, right? "Fine!" I won't be surprised if it doesn't last more than a day. I asked if she wanted to call mommy tonight. "No!" Ok.

She is happy here. She got up at 0300 to use the bathroom and saw my sleeping at the living room table (I've had issues breathing since I caught the RSV after Christmas so I often end up... upright). She checked me and kissed me on the head and went back to bed.

When this thing started when D was 10 and we put D into therapy (where mommy missed half of the appointments), it got better for a while. Their mom told me that she changed the way she interacted and it worked (ya think?).

Mommy's been on a journey, now in Eat and Pray mode, from the, Eat, Pray, Love journey she started when she left me 10 years ago. Love didn't work out, now it's Self Love, being vegetarian to be more pure, meditating. Going on meditation retreats, and a few days long ashram retreat in the Midwest this past fall. As odd as I think these are, they help her cope. How much worse would things be if she didn't have these coping strategies? And posting life-coachy videos to social media  :(

When this all started when D was 10, I imagined the teen years and cops showing up at my door, or D having caught an Uber to come to me. I'm thinking that we shouldn't wait to get her a phone until 8th grade like we did her brother. Luckily, mom trusts me enough to keep me in the loop, even if it doesn't happen until a crisis, like her DV crisis with her now exH.

D12's school T/counselor told her yesterday, "sometimes it's good to take a break." Today is Mother's Day in Mexico. S14 called his mom when I told him. D12 didn't want to talk to her.

On the way to school this morning I asked her where this was going because at her age, the court could force her to return. She still says she never wants to return. When I asked her when she wants to see mommy again... I get a *shrug*.  :(

I know we on the PSI board struggle with emotional cut off, but is when we're in our 20s-50s.

This morning on the way to school, she told us of the cops came, she'd commit a crime and go to juvie. She's long said catastrophic and sensational things like that when she's mad. I'm pretty sure mom isn't going to call the cops. She seems resigned at this point which is another concern to me.

I just told D that maybe I was too nice and I should cut off the internet. She told me, OK, maybe, but that's not it, mom is too strict. Then I told her to sweep and she said "ok!" And jumped into my arms to hug and kiss me. She's less resistant to chores now, just happy to be here.

We'll see how Sunday and Monday go... I've been telling her that she's returning to her mom's Monday. Next week, we're also all going out of town for the memorial. I wanted to put the girls in their own room, but it will likely be opposite gender together.

We'll likely drive separately, or I'll drive mom's car.

Mom also sent me an empowering video from IG of a mom using a practical example of a mom telling her daughter that she's beautiful and asked me to share with D.

This has long driven me nuts. Parenting by platitude, as a friend put it, no real emotional connection.

Is this her vacation from mom?  She at least feels she needs a break.

Mt story when I was a young man.  I did various tasks while I was a volunteer for over two decades in a very nice part of Brooklyn NY.  I was about 22 when I was assign to night shift.  It was a mix of anchoring lobby desks, cleaning dining areas and walking residential hallways every two hours for fire insurance purposes.  I enjoyed it but after 3 years I asked for a break.  So I came back to days.  After 3 months I asked to go back on nights.  "No FD, we want you to work!"

That's an example why I think she at least feels a need for a break or vacation.  Whether she'll relent and go back to at least a partial schedule, I won't opine on that.

While yes she's currently refusing the schedule her parents agreed to, she clearly wants a less difficult and more appreciated home life.  Scheduled versus something better or less bad.  My perspective.

Your D is repeatedly asking to not go back to her mother's house, yet it seems it's being minimized.

There may be more going on than anyone is aware of. That was true in my home growing up. The straight A's somehow kept it off the radar as if somehow, a kid has to be acting up, or failing in school for people to consider home isn't anything but wonderful.

My concerns were dismissed too. "Of course your mother loves you" (no, she doesn't). "It can't be that bad, look how you kids turned out".

There was a family we knew that was very disordered. One parent was an alcoholic. The house was a mess. The kids sometimes didn't get fed. They wouldn't say a word about it. The family secret. The kids were top students.

Nobody had a clue what happens when alone with my BPD mother. BPD mother can "hold it together" in front of other people. Even now, as adults, we kids are still a bit afraid of her.

This isn't about internet and chores. Teen agers can be moody over chores but saying they don't want to see or speak to a parent repeatedly - especially if it's known that the parent has a disorder -and the child is a straight A student at school? This is not likely due to not wanting rules or chores.

Not about the internet or chores, you're right. I'm letting mom get into my head.

D told me this morning that she doesn't want to go back until next month. I don't think mommy will argue this. It precludes me going in early to work a few times per week as I normally do, but it's not a requirement. I can WFH early mornings same as when I have them for school. I've only been going onsite for 4-5 hrs/day anyway the days I've had them since D no longer likes after school. That wouldn't fly in my previous role.

I agree with Notwendy, there's more to this than chores, perhaps even that her time for homework is sabotaged.  Whatever else is triggering this, D12 craves the normalcy and sense of safety etc at your home.  She's also of an age you can increasingly share about things that can be indicators or mental health issues, as they apply to her mother's behaviors and distorted perceptions.

My schools didn't have after school, so I used daycare.  Daycare informed me they accommodated children only until age 12 which coincided with him entering middle school.

I wouldn't even put it in terms of less difficult. This is not a student who is detered by something difficult. She aims for straight A's.

If I were to describe it- I'd say not toxic, not chaotic, and not abusive.

My relationship with my mother has not changed much since my teens. A difference is that as an adult, I am better equiped to manage it. But the ongoing element is her BPD which influences how she thinks and feels and her capacity to relate to people. Due to her BPD, she is emotionally and verbally abusive.

If you, Turkish, don't want to live with your ex or be married to her- then why would your D feel any diffferent about it than you do?

You are an adult though, and since you share parenting- you are in some kind of relationship with her and are managing that. You are decent to her, you do your best to stay on cordial terms with her and do your part. But you aren't in the same house with her 24/7 because you don't want to be.

I also have a relationship with my mother- I respect that she is my mother. I treat her kindly. She is elderly and I do what I can to assist her. But I also have to have boundaries with her. I didn't have that choice as a teen, and your D may not have the choice to not live with her mother at all depending on the custody arrangement. What your D is expressing is her own boundaries "I am not comfortable around this person" and people ignore that because they can't fathom someone feeling that way about their own mother, but she's not comfortable at least she will get some reprieve from it by staying with you more. She may have a different relationship with her mother later but for now, she can only be 12.

I tried to show D that video, and D didn't like it. "It'sfrom mommy!" I asked her, "what if it wasn't from mommy?" She replied, "I still wouldn't like it." " why?"

"Because it's weird!"

"I agree."

I've seen her send similar things to S14, but he ignores them. That the kids pick up on it is interesting. I get that mommy was enmeshed by her mom and her dad was either absent, cheating or abusive. It's like she's trying too hard rather than being herself.

I ready for the I told you Sos...

Met for brunch, D was offstandish at first. Mommy commented, "what are those dark spots in your eyes? You only have them when you come back from Daddy's." There are no dark spots. She's insane.

Brunch turned better when mom asked D about their planned trip to Japan at some point. (parenting by bribery?). D12, a talker, gushed for half an hour about visiting Japan, customs, food and all that they'd do. Brunch was fine. We got Gelato after then said our goodbyes. D is OK being picked up by mom tomorrow. She did ask me to buy D shoes as her black shoes had a rip. I had to look closely to see. No problem, we split shoe costs. Those things aren't in my radar unless they're obvious, I'm a dude, so sue me.

When we got home, she sent me an email (she knows that the kids get into our phones. At least D who figured out our passwords. She said that this wasn't a criticism, but could I make sure that D dresses more nicely as her shirt was faded. No, it wasn't, it was a plain navy t-shirt. D alternates between dressing girly-girl and tomboyish. She had on nice blue jeans. She ended telling be to be careful how I communicate to the kids (this isn't the first time she's said that).

Maybe this was immature, but I responded:

I am always so proud of myself when I take the high road, and rough on myself when I don't.  But then I see someone here say something immature and I'm like, of course I understand why you said that.

I've had a similar situation lately with a kid mad at my ex, and I kind of smile when they're mad for the same reasons I used to be mad.  The old patterns just keep repeating and for me, it's honestly the best validation I've had. 

I replied though because I'm wondering what others think- when a kid has a recurring problem with the BPD ex/parent, do we get involved or stay away?  I've been staying quiet until very recently when I'd catch both side of the argument as a 3rd party.  Now I'm second guessing....maybe I should be saying something.  I'm really not sure. 

Getting involved or not- It depends on the age of the child.

It makes sense that the issues are similar with a child. It's a relationship and BPD affects all relationships.

"Child has a problem with their mother" . If the issues with their mother are similar to the ones with you- and the mother has BPD, it's more likely it's the mother's problem not the child's.

On the child's part- is it a problem or is it that the child's boundaries are being violated and they aren't comfortable? Or is is that the child is being emotionally, verbally, or physically abused?

I heard that phrase many times "I have a problem with my mother" and to me, that meant I am the cause of the problem. BPD mother blamed me for any issues in the family. I believed that leaving home was the solution- that when I went to college, my parents would be happy. Of course that wasn't true but it didn't matter- the shame was already there.The cultural expectations are that we love our mothers but when our mothers are also verbally and emotionally abusive, that's complicated. Having a problem with our mothers feels like a failure.

My relationship with my mother has been a difficult one for me. I don't have a problem with my mother - it's with her behavior.  I don't generally wish to have relationships with people who continuously criticize me, lie, manipulate and say mean things, but this isn't any relationship. To me, it's designed by God and I need to do my best with it, even if my best efforts don't succeed. That doesn't mean I can't have boundaries with her due to her behavior.

So the assumed problem I had with my mother was that- as a teen, I had boundaries with abusive behavior,  and so it was my problem to fix by not having them, tolerating and enabing her behavior, and and being compliant with her and so I tried to do this-to be good enough for my mother so that my mother would be happy with me and solve that problem. But even with my best efforts, I couldn't achieve the kind of relationship I wished for.

So, if considering to intervene, consider is the intervention going to help your child learn about boundaries, and how to respectfully enforce them, to understand BPD behavior better, and to maintain their own self esteem- then yes, direct them to someone who can help them, like a counselor or therapist. Help them to learn to walk that line between respectful behavior with a parent and also respecting their boundaries- a line they may feel they are wobbling on.

But it it's to make them responsible for their mother's feelings, it could increase their sense of shame and failure and encourage co-dependent behavior.

Also, what worked for the mother in the early years - control to the extent that the child is virtually an extension to parent's life, perceptions and varying dictates - fails as the child gradually matures and seeks personal autonomy and growing independence, a natural development an acting-out person can't address.

If Mommy probably won't have a problem, and if you have schedule flexibility, then it seems like there is a way forward.

You can share with D12 that you're glad she felt like she could tell you what she thought and felt about the parenting time setup, that it's really important for parents to know that stuff. You listened to her feedback and can take it from here with Mommy, because setting the schedule is an adult job. You and Mommy will work out a new schedule for D12 to try for the next month, and at the end of the month, you'll check in with D12 to hear more of her thoughts and feelings.

Because both parents need to agree on the schedule, you can't guarantee that it will always look exactly like what D12 wants, but you can promise you will always make time to listen to her and will do your best to care about what she wants or help her through times that aren't what she wants.

Something to allow D12 to get back in her "kid" role and feel confident that you as Dad can cope with and interact with Mom. Plus reassurance that ultimately it is up to the adults to decide this stuff. It does seem like D12 might like having a concrete, set schedule, where she knows if she has to go to Mom's or not?

If/when you and Mommy agree (over email), maybe print out a hard copy of the "test" schedule for the next month and put it up on the fridge? "This is how it will look for May 17th to June 17th. On June 18th you and I will get some ice cream and I will listen to your thoughts on how it went".

D12 was just picked up. She seems OK with it for now. I told her that I'm not going to come rescue her at night if they have problems, but I'll see her Wed. She also told me that spending the last Wed with me for a break was her suggestion and mommy agreed (I thought it was mom's suggestion). Again... she's the parent, so deal with it?

I told her that she had to go to after school tomorrow and Wednesday and she agreed if I picked her up from school Friday (mom's weekend) and mommy can pick her up from my house.

Re: the email...

Mom answered that she didn't know what I was talking about and said that she just wanted D dressed properly. D and I disagree with mommy apparently.

She texted me if I had D. I said yes as we went to get shoes as I said we would  Then a sarcastic text, "thanks for picking up [Son]." I replied that ipicked up D12 hours ago and that he never wants to be picked up. He likes hanging with his friends in after school.

I sent D out. I don't want to see her and I'm sure the feeling is mutual. Waiting for possible criticism on choice of shoes...