BPDFamily.com

I’ve been gone for a while, taking a bit of a digital break. But, lately, I’ve really been struggling with some things.

In some ways, things with my uBPDH have improved. We haven’t had any intense or violent episodes. But we have had more frequent arguments — largely due to his moodiness or dysregulations. It makes things very stressful and difficult for me.

Drinking is a real problem. I asked him to just let me know when he does it, knowing I can’t just stop him from doing it. At least that way I’d be able to get an idea of how much of a role alcohol plays. He not only hasn’t been telling me, he’s hidden wine in old soft drink bottles in spots around the house. Obviously there’s a dependency issue. But, as I’ve learned from the online sobriety support group I joined (there’s a section for families), I can’t control it or cure it. I can just decide what my boundaries are.

He’s in therapy again, but, as usual, I don’t have much hope it will be successful. I doubt he’s fully honest with his T. My T suspects BPD and/or possibly CPTSD and, she told me, manipulation of Ts is pretty common. If he’s not honest, there’s little chance T will work.

She said couples therapy could help, but only if it’s arranged in a way where I have space to be totally honest in a safe environment. My honesty has triggered him in the past.

Old issues remain issues: my family, my lack of closeness with SS13.

Anyway, I’m trying to be more mindful and get back into the rhythm of validation, keeping calm, not JADE-ing.

But I also deal with frustration. Why can’t I just figure out what I need to do? Why do I just sit here, inert, and put up with the moodiness and dysregulations? Where I have to stay the adult and in control?

I feel for you, knowing how difficult it is to live with an addict, especially one reluctant to admit to it. Though my husband is no longer drinking, and is severely disabled due to a stroke almost two years ago, the *addict* still shows up behaviorally. You’ve probably heard the term “dry drunk.” Because they never are fully honest with themselves, the challenging behaviors recur, but now there’s no substance abuse excuse.

I would bet that most alcoholics, or alcohol dependent people, have a history of childhood difficulties and/or have a personality disorder. I’m not fond of the “medicalization” of alcohol abuse as an “illness,” as this takes away agency from the alcoholic. I see it more as an habitual behavioral pattern and that there is a choice point every time they lift a glass or bottle to their mouth.

I’ve asked my husband to explain his former use of alcohol and he summed it up thusly: “It’s a place that I go to where it’s comfortable and I feel good.” Other times he has said, “It’s my only friend.”

Over the years I had tried to intervene in various ways, which always backfired and caused him to distance himself from me and not trust me. It left me feeling anguish, as I knew he was damaging himself…and he ultimately paid the price through having a massive stroke.

With time and distance, I now have an overview I didn’t see at the time: his relationship with alcohol was more important to him than his relationship with me. That was a bitter pill to swallow.

Knowing that, and coming to terms with it, actually has helped me cope with his disability. I realize I didn’t have the relationship that I thought and that I was striving to recreate the magical fairytale phase which originally ensnared me, but was merely a mirage.

I think that’s part of what I’m struggling with now: understanding and coping with the reality of his addiction. Asking him to tell me when he drinks is controlling and, ultimately, pointless. If he’s an alcoholic, he won’t tell me. And does it even matter? The result is the same.

I read a book a few months ago — blanking on the name but very enlightening. It explained the difference between a problem drinker (more about habit and personality) and an alcoholic (genuine change in biology and chemistry). I need to dig it out again when I have time to myself.

I think I got something out of feeling like the adult. I mean, I hated everything about it, but if I'm honest, it felt ... familiar. I was sort of the long-suffering kid in my FOO who was praised for being more regulated and calm and poised and blah blah blah trashcan for family emotions. I was expected to handle things. It was an identity.

Maybe it is more comfortable (though not preferable) to identify with the adult role than not knowing what or who you would be without someone who is emotionally a child?

Good point. And I’m sure there is some part of me that does enjoy that. I’ve always been a bit bossy. During my teen years, my next-in-line sister was anorexic. She was a nightmare to live with — volatile, manipulative, capable of emotional cruelty.

My parents are awesome, but they also relied a lot on me to help with the younger sisters (elementary and preschool aged). It gave me some sense of control and self-worth.

Not surprising I would slip back into that dynamic.

Ah..the sense of control and self worth…I realized that I’ve enhanced my self esteem through comparison with my husband. Many times I’ve felt contempt for him when he has dysregulated over what appears to me to be *silly stuff*, while I’ve been able to hold it together in extremely dire circumstances. I had such a different idea of who I thought I was marrying; I thought he was an equal partner, who had my back, like I had his. He has been supportive in many ways, but I haven’t been able to count on him to be sufficiently adult enough at times when I could use his assistance.

When we first got together I was totally smitten by the image he presented and I felt he was far out of my league: movie star looks, Ivy League education, JD degree. We both graduated at the top of our class, but my degree was from a state university and I never was able to figure out a use for it. I floundered through the work world, while he pursued a steady path of advancement.

Now, after several years together, I’m frequently shocked at how illogical he is, what an easy mark he is for anyone who complements him, how he seeks happiness through externals, and how self-negating he is.

I know comparison is often the thief of joy, but through it, I’ve actually discovered strengths I never realized I had.

 

My H has a masters degree and a more marketable career, so he is, in many ways, more successful than I. He doesn’t like his career and frequently complains about how his dad forced him into it, but he has achieved some degree of success.

At the same time, while I often feel like a loser who has never figured out what she wants to be when she grows up, I’m generally happier. I usually like the people I work with. I feel accomplishment and pride in doing my job well. I’m more secure in who I am, overall.

In a lot of ways, it’s the negativity that gets to me. Unless he’s in a great mood, he tends to see every word or action through the most negative lens. If several bad or annoying things happened that day, he talks about how all these people were acting in ways to upset him on purpose.

I’m struggling in a lot of ways right now:
1) I still miss my grandmother, who died on NYE. She was always my best friend, biggest cheerleader and safe space. I’m working through things with my T and sometimes I can share with H, but not when he’s moody.
My family (including aunt and cousins) are at the beach for their annual visit. We went last year, but I opted not to go this time. We have another big trip in a few months and H didn’t have time off for both.  I didn’t really feel like going, largely because staying in a house with 20 people isn’t my idea of relaxing. I knew my dad was taking everyone out to eat one night. Sort of a “last meal on Grandma” — spending about what she gave for birthdays. He gave me my money for us to use on a meal on our trip.
So, I knew all about it. He posted a photo on Facebook and, I admit, I got emotional — thinking of my grandmother and that I wasn’t there. My feelings aren’t hurt. I’m not mad. It just touched me. I don’t dare mention to H because he would blow up.

2) I’m having some health issues related to iron deficiency anemia. So far, can’t figure out what’s causing it. My PCP sent me to a GI specialist, who found nothing wrong down there. The bloodwork they ran showed my numbers are getting worse, so I called my PCP’s nurse, who basically said I need to talk to the specialist — who just moved my upcoming appointment to September. I’m having some physical symptoms and anxiety over what’s happening.
Again, I haven’t shared this latest news with H because he’s tense and in a foul mood today. He would rage at the doctor — the medical community at large, really, and I’d end up feeling even worse.

I know that sometimes, he’s someone I can’t depend on. But lately it’s been getting to me more and more.

Law was one of only three degrees my H’s parents approved of, even though he paid his own way through grad school, and later hated being an attorney. He imagined himself being a movie director/actor, much like how kids fantasize about being in the NBA or the NFL—and I think he mentally cosplays those roles, as he watches several hours of movies daily.

Same.


I know that scenario. So bizarre (and narcissistic) to imagine people scheming to ruin his day. That other people would deliberately plan to victimize him—it’s ludicrous. (I attempted to refute this nonsense a couple of times, saying “They probably don’t even notice you.” Of course that didn’t go over well, as you could imagine. lol)

I’m so sorry about the loss of your grandmother.  :hug: :hug:

I’ve been struck by how ill equipped my husband is to be supportive of me when I’ve felt grief. It’s almost like he doesn’t understand how normal people automatically respond to comfort their loved ones. And if he manages to fake it, he can only do it for so long, before his focus returns to himself.
 
Have you read The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma?

I’ve realized that some of my health issues are a signal from a deeper part of myself. I know that when my right shoulder starts hurting, often it’s because I’ve been over involved in my H’s issues and not taking enough care of myself. (Shouldering his problems)

So if we look at iron deficiency anemia, your blood doesn't have enough healthy red blood cells to oxygenate your body. You are either not getting enough iron or losing too much. Oxygen creates energy to drive our metabolic processes. Lack of iron in your blood causes fatigue, dizziness, shortness of breath and other undesirable symptoms.

Metaphorically looking at this disorder, what do you see?

What comes to mind for me is that iron is one of the most common elements on this planet. Alloys of iron have been associated with strength, weaponry, foundations (think skyscrapers).

I would guess that you haven’t been feeling supported. You might not feel you have enough room to breathe.

 

Very interesting insight, Cat. It definitely makes a certain amount of sense to me. Whatever is involved, I’m sure stress is a big part of it.

It’s been difficult. Between H and SS13 (who is a moody, spoiled teen who regularly lies and breaks rules), the only consistently loving, supportive, trusting relationship I have is with my dogs. They’re fabulous, but it’s not enough.

When H is stable, he’s more rational. But it doesn’t take much to annoy or upset him. I never know when something will happen to set him off. I’ve gotten better at separating myself from his moods and he’s gotten better at controlling himself (somewhat). But there’s a lot of tension.

Do you feel grief about the family (husband, child) you could have had? It could have been something so different, and it isn't.

It would be hard, then, to grieve fully how truly good things could have been, while living in the "what is" every day.

As odd as it sounds, I wonder what it would be like to have a funeral or other ritual that lays to rest what could have been. (Of course, if you're working with a T, maybe floating that idea by your T first).

To me, it seems like loving a living person with BPD might be more difficult (in a way) than grieving a physical death. The person they could have been isn't there, but their body is alive, so there's a part of you that recognizes the "absence of self" (like when someone actually dies) but then hey, they pop back into your life, or you see them downstairs, and maybe there's something deeply confusing at a soul level about that. "He's here, but he isn't here".

IDK... food for thought. I'd be curious if any of that aligns with your experience.

I haven’t really thought much about grief for my “could have been” family. Honestly, I’ve never been sure I wanted kids.

I do have more grief (particularly lately) for what I lost. I grieve for the family I grew up in. It wasn’t perfect and there were problems (particularly in my teen years with my sister), but it was a big, close, happy group. I felt safe and like I belonged. I had grandparents who lived close by whom I adored. And, since they all got along well, family gatherings usually involved both sides.

My T says it’s very normal, when the last grandparent dies, to feel compounded grief — reliving the grief from the other grandparents and a piece of your life that’s over.

But, in my case, I think there’s that added element of my stressful home life now. The uncertainty of it and the real loss of what I used to have.

Sometimes I also grieve for my single days — just the freedom of it. I do like a lot about being married. But those eggshells…

I do think there’s truth, though, in grieving what could have been. If he were more confident and stable ours could be a great union.

To go back to questions you posed in your initial post: ”But I also deal with frustration. Why can’t I just figure out what I need to do? Why do I just sit here, inert, and put up with the moodiness and dysregulations? Where I have to stay the adult and in control?”

I had been feeling really angry and resentful because I believe my husband’s stroke resulted from his bad choices: extreme alcohol abuse in combination with taking pharmaceuticals, unhealthy food choices, sedentary lifestyle, untreated sleep disorder, tobacco use. And the resulting burden, figuratively and literally, ended up on me.

What exacerbated my resent was now I was supposed to be the one who motivated him to do his recovery exercises, when all he wanted to do was to lie in bed and watch movies on his laptop…like all day and all night. Every time I’d take him to physical therapy, there would be more exercises assigned to me to make him do. It was like having a recalcitrant three year old in an adult’s body.

It seemed that I could not get past (or through) the anger I felt. I knew that wasn’t doing me any good to feel that, so that’s why I started therapy.

Some months down the road, I feel like I’ve turned a corner. I’ve come to a place where I don’t believe he will ever get better—either physically or his personality disorder.

Prior to coming to acceptance of this, I kept feeling that if only I tried harder, then he’d have some awareness, maybe empathy, for my experience and as a result of that epiphany, perhaps be a bit less reactive and more understanding. Or that if I could get him to do his physical therapy exercises with some level of motivation and enthusiasm, that perhaps he would be able to walk better and even regain some use of his hand.

My epiphany was that he is who he is and I’ve been trying for years to make him be a better self. But that is not who he wanted to be, that was what I wanted him to be.

Recently I had someone come to fix my field and brush mower. I mentioned that my husband had had a stroke and he told me he’d had a stroke a few years ago. He too lost use of one side of his body, but you’d never know it now. He said he was just too damned stubborn to quit trying, as frustrating as physical therapy was—he just kept doing the exercises, and getting mad, and working more, until the neural links regrew and he was able to use his affected side again. The only lasting damage he has is that he used to be fluent in 3 foreign languages, but now he can only understand bits and pieces. Also he lost the ability to do complex math in his head. He previously was an engineer, but now he’s mostly retired and does small engine repair for fun.

Meeting him and hearing how motivated, and un-self-pitying he was, made me realize that you can’t install a different personality in someone. People presented with life’s challenges either respond to them or claim victimhood.

The person I’m married to is who he is and makes the choices he wants to make. I’m free to either accept that or not. I spent years not accepting that and the fallout was that I felt frustration, resentment, and despair. Having lowered my expectations, I don’t feel so involved in his issues and can extract myself from his drama. (It’s easier for me as I have a lot of alone time after I meet his basic needs.)

TLDR: See People For Who They Really Are, Not Who You Want Them To Be.

And I think that’s a big part of what I’m struggling with now. I’m seeing who he is. Is it something I can (or want to) live with?

I do think I’ve accepted that I can’t change who he is.

So, tonight is an example of something I struggle with.

H has a part-time job as organist at a small church. Today there was an annoyance about it that set him off. One of the things that gets him going is he feels like they don’t pay him enough. He’ll go on about how talented he is, how he deserves more, etc. I get it, but he doesn’t sound attractive.

He was going to respond to the pastor and asked my advice. I said I thought the first part was fine, but I wouldn’t talk about the other part in the same text message. I would address it with her later.

That set him off more.

This led into him bringing up again how when we married, my mom said we needed to ask the church’s organist to play, as we were married in my home church. And how hurt he was that no one asked him to play at my grandmother’s memorial service. (No one from the family participated in the service.) He felt it could have been a chance to connect.

I know his lack of real connection with my family bothers him. But complaining about my grandmother’s service, or about a wedding eight years ago, I start to feel twitchy.

How does it go when he asks you for advice? Stable/generally normal 50% of the time, off the rails (old grievances, etc) 50%? Some other % split?

When he asks for advice, do you typically take him at face value?

And when you start getting "twitchy", what do you usually do next?

I’m not sure on ratios. If he already seems moody, I will usually either not give advice or agree with him. (Knowing him, he won’t actually act until he’s calmer and will do the right thing.) Yesterday, he seemed in a good mood, so I was honest in my opinion. That triggered him.

When I get twitchy, I get annoyed. My heart rate goes up. I get more defensive or try to disengage.

This morning, he said he brings up things from the past to have examples. (These examples usually aren’t good ones and are only tangentially related, so it feels like shrapnel flying everywhere.) Perhaps I need to do a better job of assuring him I understand his POV. Because I almost always understand. But when he brings up all these other things, it can start to cloud the issue and make it harder for me to focus on the real problem.

The underlying thoughts/feelings seem to be:
I’m not valued enough.
I’m not respected enough.
I’m not appreciated enough.
I’m not a part of your family.

Though he projects these issues outward, the underlying feeling is: I’m not good enough.

You may try over and over to reassure him, but it’s like trying to fill an endless hole. If he doesn’t have an internalized sense of self worth, no external source will be able to assuage the emptiness he feels within.

Exactly. He doesn’t have that foundation.

I have a lot of insecurities. But, at my core, I think I do have a sense of who I am and know I have value. I was fortunate to have people who loved me unconditionally and made me feel very much wanted my whole life — particularly early on,

He’s life began with “rejection” (put up for adoption by his birth parents. He went to adopted parents who loved him, but who were also probably not a good fit emotionally. Then, his bio family rejected him again years later.

That’s probably why I tend to put a positive spin on things and give people the benefit of the doubt while he jumps to the most negative interpretation. Case in point: they briefly thought I might have celiac disease. Before I found out I don’t, we went to a family dinner. My BIL (a doctor diagnosed with celiac a year ago) asked me about things. I told him we were waiting on biopsies, but the bloodwork was negative. He said “well, if the bloodwork was negative, it’s probably not that, so I wouldn’t worry.” H later said he felt like BIL was being a dismissive jerk. Knowing BIL, I was sure he was giving and honest assessment and telling me not to get too worried or waste time stressing over a potential positive result.

There’s nothing I can do to fill that hole. It’s work he has to do on himself. But it’s work I doubt he’ll do. He’s saying now that he’s “over” therapy. He cancelled an appointment this week for work and there was confusion over rescheduling, so he was charged a cancellation fee. Also, his T told him it would likely take years to make real change, to relearn reactions and behaviors. He “doesn’t have time for that.” He says I probably won’t be around long enough to wait years. I told him I can be patient, we just both need progress.

But I think he just wants to quit.

My husband has never pursued long term therapy. He’s been motivated to try therapy when all of his other coping mechanisms haven’t worked, but the *issues* he deals with then are all external things—for example: his relationship with his sisters and “not feeling like he is a part of the family.”

And as soon as he gets some sense of resolution or understanding (but never because the issue is *solved*), then he quits therapy.

He pursues studying Buddhist texts, attending seminars (mostly online though he did go to a retreat recently and returned home with Covid). But I see no epiphanies, no behavioral change. I’ve often compared it with people who used to attend Grateful Dead concerts. They could recite where and when they saw the Dead, and the playlist, etc. It also reminds me of acquiring BoyScout/GirlScout badges. (I’ve met several Buddhists who love to talk about what empowerments and retreats they’ve been on and with what spiritual master.)  :(

Bottom line, when they’re desperate for solutions and have exhausted their own coping mechanisms, then and only then will they reach out for therapy. And should that therapy veer into them taking personal responsibility or delving into deeper places they don’t want anyone to access—then they’re out of the door like a shot.

Back in the final couple years with my ex, I noticed how she kept bringing up complaints from years earlier, even from before we were married.  I'd apologized over the years but they kept popping back up.  Yes, when she was upset.  I decided to apologize for anything and everything, no matter how absurd or ancient, I did that for months.  It got to the point where she'd start editing my apologies and things I forgot to include.  I recall one time she insisted I repeat exactly what she wanted in an apology.  Oops, I kept leaving one phrase or another out. :(  After a half dozen tries I realized such appeasing would never work.  So I told her I'd only apologize for what I decided was appropriate.  Didn't go over well.  Our marriage imploded within a year.


The Bridge (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=65164.0;all)
The Backyard Black Hole (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=65164.msg13138572#msg13138572)

For years before my marriage came apart (and before I knew anything about BPD), I used to think my ex was an emotional black hole. No matter what anyone did for her, no matter how much anyone tried to comfort/heal her, it was never enough. And she actively refused any suggestions on how to improve her happiness, mental health, etc. I just eventually gave up and kept working on improving myself because I could see that she would never change. She either didn't want to leave the state she was in or couldn't.

When I started reading books about BPD, I swear everyone one of them said people with BPD are emotional black holes. I had a bittersweet laugh about that.

No, there is nothing you can do to fill the void inside this person. They may think they need other people to make them happy, but we all know by now the outcome of that. They are the only person that can heal themselves. Unfortunately, as you say, they are unlikely to ever reach that conclusion or put in the hard work of transformation even if they do. Which then leaves you with some hard questions about whether you can remain in a relationship with such a person.

I think the efforts on his part to get better, no matter how limited, probably make it that much harder to make a decision.

There is less FOG when the tender cycles are few and far between, I would imagine. Tender cycles draw us back in to the hope we had at the onset of the relationship. They are also time-tested. We know how to do those cycles, many of us have that routine ingrained in us through FOO-ification.

Same for efforts to get better, whether it's actual (seeing a T) or talking about it.

In retrospect, my ex didn't really have tender cycles. That's partly why I could leave. He made it clear that I was garbage and that fully shut door was one reality beyond what seemed survivable.

It was in all likelihood his biggest mistake, to throw no crumbs.  :(

His loss, my gain.

T has told me that his father’s suicide still weighs on him and it’s something he struggles with — yet he has never brought it up with a T. I would say, yes, he bolts when/if introspection comes up. More than once, a T has told him he needs to talk more.

That’s a good point, livedndreamland. We do have a good amount of good times — probably more than half. That plus the fact that he has made progress over the years and continues to seem genuinely confused why he gets dysregulated makes it harder to leave. He does seem to want to get better. But I don’t think he’s prepared for what it would actually take.

It’s hard to leave someone who regrets behavior and tries to improve.

Have any of you read the book,  It's Not You by Dr. Ramani Durvasula? I see so much more clearly now, my exDH and my uBPDm, as I read this book.  I have much better understanding than I did, both of who they were and slowly of myself.  So much of the conversation here in this thread reminds me of my own struggle,  both in the physical and mental realms.  I feel that I could write a lot of the same (or parallel) words as yours.

The best part is that you continue to think and ponder and grow, Ozzie101. No shame here amongst your fellow posters.  |iiii

Wools  :hug:

I had no idea Dr. Armani had written a book. I’ve watched a lot of her videos. They don’t all apply (I do think H has some narcissistic tendencies, but not fully). I found her soothing and knowledgeable.

Over the years, I have grown more accustomed to spotting things. Projection is a biggie. So often, I’ll notice something in him: moodiness, trying to pick a fight, dysregulation. He will accuse me of it (mind you, I don’t actually tell him what I’m picking up on). My best guess is he feels it in himself, but projects it elsewhere.

Yesterday, SS13 came back over from Ex’s. We’re still on week on/off custody schedule. He’s turned into a sullen teen and is pretty clear that he prefers his mom’s house. No surprise. He’s spoiled, coddled and doted on there while we have a few rules, cook more often than eat out and don’t constantly take him out to do fun stuff. H came back from picking him up and his mood had definitely dropped several points. He took SS to a golf driving range. Came back and I could tell he was trying to pick at me. Talked about how good SS is at sports and how maybe he would end up a pro athlete. Said he might get each of them a membership at the golf place. He would make these comments, then stare at me. I just nodded and said noncommittal, semi-supportive things. Normally, he would never suggest buying a membership that was so expensive. And he would be more realistic about SS’s abilities. (Yes, he has talent, but not enough for pros — and he hasn’t been training since preschool like most kids with pro dreams.)

Anyway, I can tell when he’s looking for an argument and I’m better at not taking the bait. I think what happened yesterday was his abandonment fears about SS pulling away kicked up and, as usual, he turned the negative emotions to me.

There was a little tension but not a bad night.

Honestly, sometimes I fantasize about taking my little dog and living alone — no H no budding narcissist SS. But there are things about our life I love.

I have heard abut the Dr. Ramani book, and I've seen a lot of her videos. I also like a lot of her work, and have thought a great deal about what they call 'covert narcissism'. I won't go into here a lot, maybe another thread would be good on that, but my ex was very much like this....very shy, very stressed in social situations, very seemingly fragile.

The 'feeling' that they are moody and trying to pick a fight is something that I picked up on, and I could never understand where it was coming from. She'd be short, or not responding to texts and calls, and I could feel something was 'off'. But, again, I never knew what it was. I'd spend a lot of time trying to figure out why she was mad.

Almost always, she was hiding something from me like not inviting me to events with her friends, planning on ditching me over the holidays, not inviting me to weekends away, etc. that caused her to be this way...toward ME.

And in those times, even the slightest little things would cause her to tell me that 'I'm trying to start a fight'. I found this to be so confusing since I had no intention of trying to start a fight, wasn't angry, and wasn't accusing her of anything. I had no idea what her 'plans' were, or didn't feel super hurt if I had guessed. Even a little suggestion on the phone that we chat a little longer during times like this got an angry reply..."what, you trying to start a fight?".

I couldn't understand where all this was coming from. I've come to understand it was when she was doing something behind the scenes, without telling me, that she believed would be hurtful to me. These were manipulations that she needed to execute, and hide things, and not tell me things,.And that made her 'angry'.....at me. 

In the same vein, if one of her manipulations, like witholding intimacy for months, ignoring my texts and calls to come over, became so obvious that I had to ask about it-  kindly and gently- she would explode at me accusing me of "wanting to start a fight". When I asked in bed if something was off in our physical relationship she exploded "you wanna go at it???!! You wanna fight??!! let's go at it then, right now!!!"

Since I later learned that she was withholding intimacy for months (she admitted it during the above exchange in bed, after 4 months of withholding and evading), while she ALSO asked me to watch her dog for free for 3 weeks during this time, I now recognize that she KNEW this was what she was doing and that made her mad.

She KNEW I was buying her stories hook line and sinker, knew she wasn't being fully honest, knew she was planning something hurtful (avoiding intimacy while also asking me to watch her dog for 3 weeks to save her money, judging me and "reevaluating the relationship since I was excited about a potential business partnership she deemed to be with a 'loser) this caused her to be 'angry', and it came out at me.

So yes, that reminds me that this could all be projection of their inner turmoil, an avoidance of shame and guilt. A way to offload the bad feelings onto us.

Also, gotta love autocorrect. I do know her name is Ramani, not Armani!  :( lol

Usually once a week, H goes to the church where he’s a part-time organist to practice for Sunday. He’ll take his laptop bag with him to check in on work or take a call while he’s there. It’s not unusual for him to come back in a worse mood than how he left. Invariably, something will happen that annoys him or sets him off.

Today, he set his laptop bag in the kitchen and got his lunch. I was also in the kitchen, doing a few things, and curiosity got the better of me. I felt his bag. There was a plastic soft drink bottle inside. I didn’t pull it out or open it, but I would bet money there was alcohol in it. For one thing, that’s his conveyance method of choice these days. Though I don’t know why, since he knows I know he hides it in old bottles. For another, it was room temperature and he hates when beverages aren’t ice cold. (Except coffee — and wine.)

I didn’t say or do anything about it. I didn’t want to start a fight or be controlling. I don’t know yet if he’ll drink it or if tonight will be a problem. It just didn’t seem like calling him on it was the thing to do.

But now I’m feeling extremely anxious at a time when I already feel major stress for a variety of reasons. I know this comes down to me — how do I feel? How will I manage things? Do I want to stay or go?

Ozzie....how are you feeling about this now?

That bottle hiding behavior is super common among alcoholics, I've heard it many many times.

Makes it even more stressful, and more confusing behavior results from it.

I’d be skeptical that he had wine in that bottle. Beer and wine are easier to smell on the breath than clear spirits, such as vodka. Also for an adult male, particularly one who has a habit of abusing alcohol, it takes a fair amount of alcohol to become intoxicated. The handout that comes with the California DMV driver’s license renewal indicates that a typical male could consume two beers or the equivalent of wine, and still remain within legal limits for driving.

In the past, it’s always been wine. That’s his drink of choice. I don’t know if his tolerance is low, he’s drinking a lot, or if it just doesn’t take much to tip him over when he’s upset.

We didn’t have a terrible night, but it wasn’t a great one. He was definitely moody and negative, trying to pick a fight. He came home fine, but disappeared upstairs to wrap up work and was in a mood when he came back.

It’s all frustrating, not fully knowing what’s happening and not knowing day-to-day what the evening will be like.

Another difficult evening. This morning, I had an appointment with one of my doctors. This particular doctor is in my home town and while it’s an hour drive each way, I’ve seen her for 20 years or more. I like her and trust her. H tends to make jokes about my needing to go down there, but it seems like, underneath, it really bothers him. My sisters all see the same doctor, so he has said before it’s more evidence of us being co-dependent. (My sisters and I aren’t the only ones who drive down to see this doctor, by the way. She’s really awesome.)

Anyway, she was helpful regarding my health situation. After that, we ran by my parents’ house to drop something off. My dad (a doctor) asked a few questions about what she said and next steps.
He then said: We’re concerned about it. But we know y’all are doing what you need to do, so we’re not butting in.

We got home, did our work. H was upstairs a long time and smelled like wine. He also acted oddly, giving our little dog a treat he normally would never give him (he’s on a diet).

On our walk, he asked how I felt about things. I said pretty good and we’ll have to see what my PCP says when I see him in a couple of weeks. He then brought up my dad saying they’re concerned.
“That’s making ne feel upset and worked up. Do they not think I care, too? Do they think I’m not pushing you to get to the bottom of it?”
“Well, I think they do know that. He said he knew we were doing what we need to do.”

That was correcting him and he didn’t take it well. Things never spun out of control, but he was very negative with me the rest of the night, upset that I didn’t agree that my parents think we’re not working on it. I tried to validate, saying if I hadn’t heard the second part of what my dad said (H said he didn’t hear it), I might have felt the same way. It didn’t do any good.

He kept insisting we need to figure out what set him off so he can tell his T, but I was honest in telling him I have no clue. I told him what I said right before. He was convinced I said something that set him off. All I said was I feel ok about things and will be curious what my PCP says.

I’m sure I didn’t validate enough. But validating without validating the invalid is still something I’m working on. I also felt like early in the disagreement he kept making it about him — about people not realizing he cares and is helping me. Honestly, having to deal with his flareups and negativity is not helping. At all.

I agree that he personalized your dad’s remark and made it about him.

So your health situation is what is “concerning.”
Your dad expresses his concern as well as his trust that you are handling it.
He takes that comment as an implication that he isn’t doing enough.
You reasserted that your dad thought you were on the right track.
Your husband gets upset that you don’t agree that your parents are judging both of you for not “working on it.”

So it’s your health issue and now he is neither sympathetic nor supportive of you, feeling like your dad is judging him for not doing enough about your health problem.

Can you see how self referential and narcissistic this response is?

I’d have difficulty finding something to validate other than he’s upset about your health.

I absolutely can see it. When he’s in a more normal mood, he’s not like that. He’s thoughtful and helpful. But when he feels scared or insecure, it goes out the window.

My family has been an ongoing struggle. He feels out of place and insecure with them. Also, he automatically ascribes motives to them that are in line with his parents or his former in-laws. My parents are very different from them. It’s natural, in some ways, for people to have a knee-jerk reaction. I get it. But it’s frustrating.

It apparently doesn’t help that I get along very well with my MIL. She’s pretty open that she sees me as her daughter. H doesn’t have the same bond with my parents. But the situations are different — much larger family, H is closed off, etc. I wish things were easier, but I don’t have any sort of dream in my mind. I just want peace.

He's triangulating here too.

He's the victim. They're the perpetrators. You're the rescuer.


You didn't rescue H so you're not following the script.


He doesn't know how to self-soothe so he uses wine and you.


I would find it very tricky to hear this. Because on one hand he is trying to understand. If you are an optimistic person, this could hook you into hope for change. But if he doesn't understand that he is generating the dynamic himself then those must be very delicate sessions, maybe even becoming part of a drama triangle (you, the T, and him).


It sounds like you did a really good job ozzie. You were able to keep things in the orange zone.

Validating someone is more about creating a validating environment. Sometimes the conditions are such that things might go back to or stay in the yellow zone but for the most part it's about learning how to not be in the red zone all the time.

Part of being in these relationships is radical acceptance that you will toggle back and forth between being parent and partner. Validation may help you manage that dynamic with less conflict.

Thank you both. It helps a lot to get some support and assurance.

Livednlearned, he is very fond of triangulation. Sometimes, he seems to be maneuvering me to victim and casting himself as rescuer. The fact that I don’t play along definitely frustrates him.

There has been progress. We veer into the red zone far less often. I just need to continue to work on my own boundaries, reactions and validation. It is exhausting, though, being vigilant.