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i have been thinking about why the ending of my BPD relationship was so traumatic to me and why it has been so hard to get over. i think it is becuase she was soo into me in the beginning and then everything changed and i could do nothing right. she was constantly finding fault with me. i triggered it i'm sure by breaking up with her in the beginning, but i do believe it would have happened anyway. for part of the reason i left was because she was so demanding and critical of me. But what a change! i kept trying to get the girl back who was so in love with me and though she would appear every now and then, the critical, harsh, selfish girl began to take over. I think it is really hard for me especially because of how much she liked me in the beginning. i could do no wrong, she kept telling me to trust, that it was meant to be, but as soon as i was in 100% everything changed. I think this is why i am left so confused, the 180 degree switch with me trying to figure out what i did to cause it. why else would someones feelings do a 180 unless i did something wrong? correct me if i'm wrong but i think this is the hardest thing to deal with that BPD's do. at least for me, it has left me in a state of confusion. even at the end she told me that it was her that was messed up, then the next day told me the problem was me. i think it's really hard to be adored and then thrown away and ignored as if there was never anything there in the first place. anyone relate?

Yes--I know exactly what you are talking about.  The only thing more traumatic would be to continue in the  relationship.  BPD females are full of rage for the most part and they are nasty vile piles of feces.

Some advice--feel hurt and screwed over--and dont think about it anymore--Dont be a victim of the BPD dirtbag.  Look listen and learn from this experiance and move on with life--dont dwell on the failed BPD relationship--it aint worth it.

Also--have no contact with her--tell her to get lost and to go away and stay out of your life.  She will eventually find another schmuck to deal on and trash with all her bullsht.

Good luck

I think there is also something that happens that we don't talk a lot about here.  We talk a lot about the BP's deep seated abandonment issues and what triggers them and how those issues affect them.  What we don't talk about is that WE have been abandonded in the relationship.  WE  are experiencing that kind of loss as well.  We are emotionally abandonded, we are left to figure out a serious disorder on our own, we are left alone in the relationship to care for a person who is supposed to be our partner and to support us when things get hard and to walk with us and hold on, and be there for us when things get hard.  I don't think there is anything harder than watching someone we love suffer from an illness, I don't think there is anything harder than being abused and told one things one minute and another thing the next- our sense of reality and trust is tampered with- and when we look to the person who says they love us and are going to be there for us when the world gets crazy and life gets hard, they are not only not there, they are the one's who introduce this chaos.  When we look to the person who is supposed to care for us, and we try to figure it out and do our best and open dialogue in good faith, we are left alone and rejected.  We have no one to turn to, it is too hard to explain and people do not understand the disorder.  We are supposed to be able to come home to our partner and say anything and get feedback about ... .everything... .especially the relationship, and there is no one with a willing spirit.  They emotionally withdraw and punish, and when we feel that someone is doing that to us, it is supposed to be our partner that helps us through that.  But they are not there.  We are absolutely abandonded.  It hurts and it is confusing and we try to "right" it because it makes no sense.  What BP's don't realize is that they do to us what they fear most happening themselves.  They abandon us.  They "trick" us into trusting them and they use that trust to get their needs met and they abandon us by neglecting us and our needs and our feelings, and then they threaten to leave us and punish us by withdrawing love an stability... .it is hard to be abandoned and that is what they do to us emotionally throughout the course of the relationship.

I agree with you all. The person I knew suffering from BPD was just a friend. But it hurts just as well. At first, she did all she could to gain my attention. I could do no wrong, every thing I said or did was just perfect. She told me many times to trust. And she assured me of her friendship right from the start. I remember feeling very uneasy about these things. But deep inside me, I wanted to believe that such a great person really existed. She mentioned, time and time again, that we would always be there to support each other when things get hard. But the truth is that I spent most my time trying to meet her needs. After a while, our friendship became so exhausting to me that I felt the need to withdraw. But she, like other people suffering from BPD, had a way of making me feel guilty. At the time, I was not aware of her emotional blackmail. I took what she said very seriouly. Simply because I had no idea I was dealing with someone suffering from BPD.  I just found out about this illness two weeks ago. But knowing about this illness has done very little to relieve my pain. It just leaves me asking myself questions I had never even thought about before. I am totally bewildered. Nothing in the relation I had with this person for over a year makes sense to me anymore. During our relation, I was often very lost, not knowing what to say or do in order to meet her needs. But I always gave her the benefits of the doubt. In the hope that one day, when things will get better on her side, she will take the time to explain some of her acts and deeds. That's how naïve I was. For now that things have improved in her life, she became very cold and distant. It feels like speaking to a total stranger. She did try to answer some of my questions. But her answers were so detached from reality (they sounded so phoney) that I felt even more offended. As a result, she closed every contact with me, leaving me in a state of great confusion. And the worse is that I have no one to turn to, the friends we had in common do not really believe what I tell them, and the situation seems so unreal to other people that there is no point in trying to share with them my experience. Part of the trauma comes from the ungratefulness, thanklessness and non-recognition of what I did for this person.  But the worse is the feeling of having been manipulated all along without this person feeling (or showing) any remorse for her attitude. It is hard to be abandoned. But it is even harder to acknowledge that some people are actually able to live their lives without ever reflecting back on their actions, neglecting the pain they inflict on others. In fact, it is plain scarry. It makes you lose confidence in the world around you.

wow i can so relate to you. today i had a bit of a slip. i was in her neighborhood and looked around for her. i almost went into the store where she works. i still want some explanation but last time i saw her she kind of snubbed me. i'm sure she will be cold and distant. this is why i didnt go into the store. i hate that distant look, like there was never any connection between us. also knowing about the illness hasnt done much to help me either. i have spoken to 2 therapists, one with whom i'm in therapy and the other was my therapist from a few years ago. from what i have said about the relationship thaey both agreeed that she is a "raging borderline" with narcissistic traits. sometimes it helps but i ams still very sad. i'm a fraid there is little hope for me ever getting over this. i'm on medication for ocd and depression but my heart still hurts and it's been 6 months since i've seen or heard from her.

the distant look and the no connection between us... .I know to well and am feeling it right now.

They must be hurting too, I guess that is there way of getting back at us.

I ended it so what is there to expect. I thought we could be at least civil to each other.

But it's funny during our friendship, I got the cold sholder many times, now, out of this friendship... .I get it too.

So? Nothing new.

I am doing OK but it all seemed like a bad dream. I wonder if we would react like this too?

I agree with you assessment Tracer.  When we started the relationship she was so into me.  I was into her but had other things in my life that needed attention.  So things started to change when I could not give her what she wanted.  I was willing to give but it was never enough.

So the rages began.  The name calling and nasty comments.  The constant criticism.  I could do no right.  So I walked out but did come back.  She did say then, the firsttime that she realized she did not need  to have me 100% of thetime.  From there slowly things got worse. Nothing was ever good enough or right.  Funny how she taunted me infront of my office staff.  She even told one of them of our sexuakl exploits and how good I was.  Also telling them how we fought and she would call me ever name in the book and watch me be passive and take it.

She was always into me.  Just that it was in a pathological way.  I do miss her positive attention. I am having troubkle gettiong over that illusion of teh good gf.    That is so painful.  Even today I sit and think about her.  Wondering what she is doing, almost hoping she would call.  But I know as painful as the brak up was, living with her as a BP is worse.

Tracer,  You will heal.  You will get over her.  It will take time.  Be good to yourself, find a normal person          LD

Yup. I can relate, like usual... .It is not very easy, to get over, that's for sure. Especially since we really loved them, and we thought they loved us... .and sometimes they acted like it... .and then other times... .they acted like they hated us, and it keeps your head spinning... .

Sadbunny made a lot of good points. We are truly abandoned. They are afraid of abandonment, but they do it. My X always said that he would be with me through a hard time that I was going through, but yet, guess what? He left me. Am I surprised... .No... .I was surprised when it REALLY ended, though... .because he had ended it so many times before, that I had grown accustomed to breaking up and then getting back together. But there was something about the last time that did seem final. And it seemed so difficult. And I'm still not over it, and still trying to piece it together. Just like everyone on this board seems to be doing.

That's the essence of it. I came to the sudden realization of my true situation after my father died. My wife gave me zero emotional support and the night I came home from the funeral she raged at me and kicked me out of our bedroom permanently. On top of this she denied doing any of the things she just did.

I cried every night, for my suddenly dead Father and for the death of my marriage --I realized it had been dead for some time. By day I surfed the web for answers, and that's when I came across The Nook.

I felt (and still feel) very alone in my marriage. Things improved after I asked her to leave --essentially I have been living in a 6-month-long re-engagement. But it's a hollow shell. She is reading a script entitled "The Good Wife" and even still she breaks character from time to time.

It is traumatic tracer... .My previous realtionship to the last one lasted nine years. The pain of ending that was nothing in comparison to this one... but then BPD wasn't involved. I think the word "involvement" is partly the key.

The sheer  involvement we're presented with, fairly immediately is astonishing.The continuing involvement however long the dance persists then becomes questionable ( if you're sane!) The final involvement is so intense, so mind crushingly bewildering it leaves you reeling.

How do you pass a four hour multiple question and answer exam within two minutes, all day , every day?

You can't ... .no-one can. There's only one pen and the pen runs dry.

The Mad passionate (wonderful) idealisation. The coursing of endorphins, the baited hook we willingly swallowed.

I felt like superman... .invunerable.

Unfortunately ... ."Slower than a speeding bully. Less powerful than a loco butt from hell. Unable to leap tall orders in a single boundary".

Then the descent into chaos, drama, histrionics, devaluation and abuse... .territory within even a super-hero would fear to tread.

Never forget we swallowed a hook baited with kryptonite.

I'm still not "over" mine either... .I loved her dearly too, and in the manner by which she popped into my life and promptly popped out is sheer comic book but each day means another page turned and being here is proof of postage that you've ordered the 25c X-ray glasses.

     Its our compassion, empathy and love that makes us a target for someone with BPD.  Sad to say it but our humanity is our Achilles Heel.  It sux, but it was too good to be true.  The intensity, the sex, the fake intimacy left me wanting more everyday.  My male ego has never felt anything in life like the idealization my gf gave me.  It was a drug beyond compare, and I miss it, but the pain from the cold turkey has made the thought of seeing her again revolting.  I hope she is so happy that she will never come around me again.  I hope "mr perfect" is truly perfect, and will not end up eviscerated like me, but I know better.  He will fall behind me on the list of victims. 

     We give them 110% and out of the blue its done.  No answers.  Nothing.  Just gone.  Getting a call that they are dead would probably have been easier.  So we obsess over the fact that they are doing all the things we the new mr perfect that they did with us, saying the same things, kissing the same way. 

     They are so out of touch with reality we cant even explain their behavior without comparing it to an infant.  Once again I will pray to God how lucky I am that we never got married or had any children.  I missed a bullet.

Venus Humm

     

I cannot even explain how much I agree with this by Venus... .

We give them 110% and out of the blue its done.  No answers.  Nothing.  Just gone.  Getting a call that they are dead would probably have been easier.  So we obsess over the fact that they are doing all the things we the new mr perfect that they did with us, saying the same things, kissing the same way. 

I gave this person my heart and soul, more than I have ever given a human before in my life, emotionally, physically, materially, etc. I gave the relationship 110% also. But alas... .nope. Nada. And yes, getting a call that he would have been dead might have been easier. Actually, in a way it was like it. The break-up call and the way he acted in the end (and sometimes in the relationship) was like "he" was dead. The person I knew and fell in love with.

eggshell,

i can so relate. i gave EVERYTHING... .I am so distressed by the fact that she was so infatuated with me in the beginning and now wants nothing to do with me. I am seriously starting to think that i am crazy. I just want to be free of this obsession. over and over i ask myself what i did to cuase this behaviour, and why she doesnt want me. "sometimes things just dont work out" that's how she looks at it. she told me that when we were friends years ago about another relationship i was in where the other person could no longer show up for the relationship so just ended it and didnt look back. that time the person was really into me also. actually one thing in common that they both said before they left was that they were feeling like they were starting to "need" me and couldnt deal with that. huge fear of engulfment. I love you so much i have to leave you, or I know I am hurting you so I have to leave. I dont get it, i dont get it, i dont get it. BPD or no BPD  i still dont understand. I wish i could go back in time... .

by the way eggshell, did yours dump you on the phone also? what is that about?

In the early years when he used to leave it was very traumatic for me.  I was wondering what the hell I'd done wrong - I'd bent over backwards to please him, moulded myself into the sort of person he wanted etc.

The longer the relationship progresses the more weary you are of it and after nine years I was the one that left.  I really don't recommend that you stay as long as I did just to get to the "weary" stage.

I think it's the element of "surprise" that can make it so traumatic.  You are the most wonderful person on earth one day - then the worst person they have ever come across the next day.  "Normal" people are more consistent - if the relationship ends, it's because there was usually a gradual decline in feeling from both parties. It's like winning an award for outstanding service at work on the Monday - then getting fired for no reason on the Tuesday - how does that make sense?

I think the more you understand about BPD - the clearer their behaviour becomes to you - you will be able to see a pattern there if you search hard!

Minks

thanks minky. what you said is so true. here's how mine ended:

saturday she says "i love you. i wish i didnt have to work on saturdays, i will try to get saturdays off for the summer so we can spend more time together".

wednsday she says "my feelings for you are starting to go away, i'm not sure if i want to be in this relationship. i need space"

friday she says "i still need time to myself tonite but tomorrow night can we get together and you can help me get ready for the party i'm having sunday afternoon? and can you treat us to dinner since i had to spend a lot of money on the party"

saturday night we sleep together and it is the first time in 6 months that she sleeps the whole night thru with me and doesnt have to get up with insomnia and eat in front of the tv to fall asleep... .

sunday morning she says "would you mind going out and picking up a few more things for the party? i dont have any more money but need some stuff"

sunday after party "i need some space again, party was very stressful, i think there might be too much going on in my life right now for me to be in a relationship. i'm not sure what i want. would you mind going home earlier than we usually part on sundays?  you can take some leftovers with you. why are you upset? i need space! why is it always about you?"

sunday night she says "i may have to take a break from the relationship but it's not about you"

monday "do you want to drive 3 hours on wednseday to meet my father. i'd like you to meet him". (bear in mind she does not own a car).

monday night i reply "i need to think about meeting your father. i would love to meet him but recent conversations we've had makes me feel like you might not be as committed to being together as i thought. meeting your father pulls me more into your life than i think we are ready for"

tuesday she breaks up with me on the phone.

next wednsday she calls me, when i dont pick up the phone she calls me again and acuses me of playing games with her.

friday we talk again and she says "we just want different things". i get mad, tell her i think she has fear of intimacy. she is GONE. I never hear from her again.

sound crazy?

I see all of these posts on this board, I know my ex had some serious problems, yet it was (is) trumatic breaking up... .I think I still have it in my head that now that I know the problem, I could just tell her, she'd go get help, and everything would be OK... .I know this is not true for the 99% of the cases, but I just keep thinking it would work. My reasoning is probably flawed because it is too logical and I would have to convince her that this is the problem, while painted black... .

Tracer,

I am sorry-- I can feel your pain in your posts, and I can SO relate! How long has it been? Mine broke up with me in April, but... .I have talked to him since (whoops... .)... .I was involved with him in some way, shape or form for over 2 years.

As for breaking up, it happened NUMEROUS times, but yes, usually over the phone! The last time- yes, over the phone, as well... .I guess he didn't have the guts to do it in person. Also... .if he saw me in person... .maybe he would have seen that he loved me and not been able to? Maybe that is how it is with your X? I really don't know? Just guessing here... .

About the "needing"... .my X never said that he needed me in THOSE exact words, but I got the jist of it from his actions and other things that he said, but he said that he needed his X, and told her that straight out, apparently in those words. He did, however, say that I needed HIM, but I "just didn't know it yet." Um, OKAY?

The projection is just abundant, I guess... .he constantly would say things and even SING to me about if I left him, I would regret it... .the last time I saw him, he said "You'll be back! You are going to miss me, and you won't like sex with anyone else as much as with me!" ? Plus, another time, he said, "What if I'm the love of your life, and you let me slip away through your fingers?" For some reason, he loved that phrase, "love of your life," or whatever. He mentioned that phrase in reference to me, him and his ex's very often. Strange. Of course, he'd always make comments about ":)on't leave me," etc., only then for him to leave ME. Shocker, I know.

Tracer, your other post reminds me of something that my X said at the VERY end. He said that he couldn't stand it that I didn't trust him (because of his X), and that it showed my disrespect for his COMMITTMENT to me (?), but in the same breath said that he didn't expect or need me to trust him.

?

yeah i think maybe that's why she did it on the phone too. i know she really liked me. she just couldnt decide whether or not she wanted to be with me and found so many reasons to run away. stupid reasons like i dont spend my money right, i am the wrong sex (even though in the beginning she told me that she is bisexual and the sex of the person doesnt matter, it's the person inside), i have an ex-girlfriend that i am still in contact with even though she is married and in another state, i breathe too loud when i sleep, i'm not sexual enough, my priorities are wrong, i make funny noises when i eat, my house isnt clean enough, i'm not financially responsible enough (i work full time and own a condo, she is on ssdi), and on and on, i was not serious enough about my addiction recovery (I have been in AA/NA for 19 years). she had to find something about me that was uncacceptable so she would have an excuse to run away. truth was i was so good to her it wasnt even funny. everything she wanted she got. when she needed more affection she got it, when she needed money she got it, when she needed sex she got it, when she needed a romantic dinner out she got it. and she got my heart too. BIG TIME. we also broke up in april. our history was a 10 year on and off friendship, old friends, the kind when you dont see them for a year and then you see them you hang out like best buddies again, and a 6 month very intense romance where we saw eachother many times during the week. i also took care of her when she had major surgery. dumped on the phone. it's very sad, i deserved better i know but i still miss her and wish she would call me  :'(

I'm very sorry to hear all of that, Tracer... .it all sounds familiar... .we didn't know each other as long as you two, but we did know each other for a few years and had an immediate attraction, liked each other for 2 years, had an INTENSE romance for 6 months, and yes, broke up in April, and yes, it was by phone, and YES, he also picked at small things to make up excuses... .

I read an aticle on MSN of all places, right after my X split me black and broke up with my via e mail.  I had flown to HIS country for christmas, leaving my friends and family behind, even though it was the first christmas I would have been at home in years.  Christmas is very important to me.  I planned the entire vacation according to his wishes and desires- basically an almost free ski holiday, caling all my friends in that country and calling in favours from my buddies who worked on the mountain and could get us lift passes and arranged to use the apt of another friend who was going away to visit her sister over the holidays.  There are more things I arranged- 2 days in NY nutcracker tickets- tickets at Cernegie hall and a huge dinner party in his honor where he would meet my family (who were visiting there at the time for a couple of days also) and old family friends who were also traveling distances to come- and I even invited his friends who he hadn't seen in a while and whom I had never met.  I called in more favours from chef friends of mine to have a party that big at X-mass time in NYC.

I did all of this because he works in a war zone and had been stuck there, isolated for one year.  I thought to myself.  "I have so much in my life.  I have access to everything I need and everyone I love everyday, and he has so little lately.  There will be other christmas'.  This year it is his turn".

I got there and he raged at me over the phone, complaining about the whole thing, that he had asked for, and when I tried to rearrange everything to suit his ever increasing demands, he became verbally abusive.

He told me that for 6 weeks he has been stewing about our relationship- all the while, sending me love letters, e-cards and calling and telling me that he couldn't wait to get married in the coming year.  he couldn't live without me. 

The point of my shareing the story with you is that, all along, he was telling me one thing, which was positive about the relationship, while underneath he was having BP thought patterns about himslef and his life... .and about me and our relationship.  I had no IDEA what was happening or why he was acting this way.  he said one thing all along, and did exactly the opposite- OUT OF NO WHERE.

When I drew the boundary and said "you can not come to the diner if you scream at me about it and insult me about it"- he laid in with the BP line of thinking and turned around to blame ME for the break up.  He called me every name in the book and actually REFUSED to have any kind of conversation with me.  I tried once and he was absolutely histerical, interrupting, screaming, accusin, playing word games, the whole lot.

He never showed up to the vacation and left me there in his country over X mas, without coming to see me and spent his time with his friends in a neighboring state, 3 hours away.

I kept asking him why he would not just come and talk to me as planned- so I could understand what he was talking about.  None of it made any sense- he refused to answer his phone, pretended he didn't recognize my voice- all very bizzarre- I finally MADE him come and see me- it took a huge effort- he stood me up a few times, he backed out- it was awful.

I know I had to make him do it for ME.  I confronted him that day and told him he was abusive and needed help.  He agreed.  He never got it.  he broke up with me again a few days later - by e mail- after saying he was coming to visit me in my own country 4 days from that day (we were both shipping out the next day) to talk about getting help for him (I knew he would not come and I didn't want him to).

I got at least some kind of closure- but the real closure that we need is not ours to have WITH them, like in a normal relationship.

I started to ramble... .I started this with an article I read shortly theresfter on MSN- the article talked about break ups.  What it said essentially was that if a person does not have the decency to give their X an "exit interview" it demonstrates immaturity and total lack of respect. That basically decribes all that an unrecovered BP is capable of in an intimate relationship.  I thought, maybe it was just me, but it is not.  BP's, as my X told me outright, can not handle the loss, they can not handle the feelings and they can not be responsible to another person or do what is best for EITHER party in the long run.

It is extremely traumatic to be abandoned, disrespected and summarily discarded by anyone, let alone a person who professes to love us and care for us, who promises to be our shelter in the storm of life.  The trauma is a trauma because there is no "rhyme or reason"- we replay it over and over again where it could have gone better- but that is like mentally reinforcing your doors AFTER the robbers broke them down... .we think that if we had done something differently... .

and y'know what?  I could still be together with him.  I knew that by drawing the boundary I did, he would leave.  I considered it for days before I did it.  But it was a litmus test for me.  If he could not respect me infront of my family, then I could not marry him and I refused to live like that anymore.  Things were going to have to change one way or another. It still only "makes sense" in the contxt of a mental disorder, and it stil hurts a lot.

Know what I finally decided?  I finally decided I don't CARE "why".  I only care "what".

If some vicious beast were attacking my beloved nephews, would I waste time asking it why?  H-ll, no.  I'd do anything in my power to fight for my nephews' lives.

So what was I doing trying to negotiate with the beast?  OK, to a certain point I realize there's empowerment in knowing what, if anything, I can do to prevent future attacks.  But what I realized, finally (and this could only be me, mind you) is that what I REALLY was looking for was some explanation that was based on something I did or didn't do... .something I could've controlled.  I wasn't satisfied with the simple explanation:  "it attacks because that is the nature of the beast".  Oh, no.  No, I wanted to see it in some way that would validate the Transformational Power of My Healing Love.

Yeah, it's embarassing for me to see in writing, too.  But that's what it was.  I didn't fall for the idealization phase, ironically; it actually made me uncomfortable.  What sucked me in was the fantasy that we were somehow "connected" on this oh-so-esoteric spiritual, "deep" level.  I was trying to use that relationship as a proof-of-concept exercise, that my ideology and philosophy of what love is and what the meaning of human connection is, were correct.

Oh, well.  Back to the drawing board.

I doubt that many others here (and possibly, no one else here is that ridiculously arrogant... .I mean, come ON.  Who did I think I WAS?) had the same "life lesson".  But that was mine.  So if nothing else, whatever other folks' issues were/are that kept/keep them stuck, there's a real piece of foolishness that probably made your thought processes look downright reasonable compared to my idiocy.  And TRAUMA?  O, childe!  There was my whole life's work, the whole structure on which I based reality, my identity, and G-d knows what other "ity"'s on, smashed to bits right over my head.  G-d and I didn't speak for quite some time over that.

I'm just saying, whatever we did or didn't do to keep us doing the dumb stuff we did... .at the end of the day, as long as we learn the lesson... .we couldn't have been as stupid as we thought. 

It's like you were in my head Gam- this is exactly what I was doing and thinking- exactly.  Except, it wasn't love that was transformational- it was the "power of choice" - ;== ;== ;==




Yeah.  Shove over.  Make some room for me on that bench of hubris.


 




Aman sister!

Live, from bpdfamily, it's... .

Gamby and Bunny's Hubris Bench!

With special guest stars... .Donald Trump

                                              ... .Tom Cruise... .

                                                ... .and Paris Hilton!

<cue talk show theme music>

LOL, ROFLMAO "hubris bench"!... .oh, tee-hee, I am in PAIN laughing... .

Wicked, wicked bunny wabbit!

(he-he-he-he-he-he)

Gam-

Also think we could turn this into a cartoon series... .

"CAAAAAAAPTAAAAAAIN HUBerIS... ."

with capes and everything... .

"Righting wrongs that god himself dare not touch" ... .

... the hubris mobile... .something fancy, preferable a rag top- the elements are no match for us 

The hubris pent house (can't be a cave)

The hubris signal... .

We don't actually have to be able to scale buildings, or spin webs, or anything... .our giant delusional egos will take care of it all -

Good morning fun for me--- :) :) :)



Bunny

I was the same way... .while the idealization phase was flattering, I felt very uncomfortable and it didn't make any sense to me... .it only added to seemingly validate what she was saying- you just need to find it in yourself to give me unconditional love (I guess by this she meant overlook all the dysfunction). I also thought my love would validate her and everythnig would be OK... .I'm currently reading Stop Walking On Eggshells, and they tell you how to speak to a BPD. I used many of the methods they described (obviously before reading the book) because that's what it seemed like she needed... .if only it worked like it did in the book... .there was no reasoning with her, and it sounds the same for you.

I feel like crying, reading this. G-D - I didn't know there WERE words to express my experience and feelings... .

-W

Gam -

My experience EXACTLY. So that bench you and Bunny are talking 'bout? - Please make room for me too!

-W

I think bpdfamily ate my post... .what I said (approximately) was:

===============================

Bunny -

Our sign could be a giant capital "I".  With a halo!  What do you think?

Ooo!  Tiaras!  Can I wear a tiara?  Please, oh please, please with cream and sugar on its tail please can I Bunny, ple-e-e-a-se can I have a tiara?  I promise not to pick one that clashes with the capes!

G.

================================

Well, OK, Warner, but boys don't get to wear tiaras.  I'm just saying. 

<brightens>  How about an extra-large codpiece instead?

Ooh!  Ooh!  And instead of changing in telephone booths, or on the way down a fireman's pole a la the bat cave, we could emerge from... .

The Compliance Closet!

Ta-ra!  Yes, the Compliance Closet, home to our disenfranchised emotions, self-esteem, and rational truth!

I'm liking it, guys. 

I'm reading a book from G. J. Warnock called "Contemporary Moral Philosophy". My experience with my friend suffering from BPD is a paradigm of what the author calls a "plain fact" of moral wrong. Like him, I believe that we all have the conviction that at least some questions as to what is good or bad for people, what is harmful or beneficial, are not in any serious sense matters of opinion. That it is a bad thing to be manipulated or hurt, is not an opinion: it is a fact. That it is better for people to be loved and attended to, rather than ignored or blackmailed, is again a plain fact, not a matter of opinion. One does not have to be a student of ethics to grasp what Warnock calls a "plain fact," namely, that those who care for their fellow human creatures are better people than those who do not.

It is tempting to conclude that these thoughts constitute sufficient philosophical judgment of my BPD friend. In the context of moral "plain facts," what more can be said? She used emotional blackmail to keep me within her grasp, she used lies "selectively" to hide her manipulation, and she told me to trust in order to make sure that I would meet her needs, before waving me good-bye with the note that "true friendship do in fact develop over a much loongeeeeeeeeeer period of time." The moral wrongness of her behaviour is beyond debate and opinion, without possibility extenuation.

Yet there is more. And this is the reason why it is so traumatic. In seeking comprehension, we all look for and anticipates truth to be found in the context of ethics and values. The specific task of anyone trying to make sense of someone else's behaviour is an ethical-valuational one. He/she will look at the motivation that can account for this behaviour and limn its moral ramifications on an ethical-valuational scale. However, dealing with the behaviour of a person suffering from BPD requires attention to a given: comprehension and truth about the motivation cannot be guaranteed. For the tragic reality is that the behaviour of a person suffering from BPD can often be consigned to the irrational, where no interpretation is possible, and no lessons can be learned from it. It amounts, at best, to a mystery or, at worst, to a meaningless event.

I have often asked myself about the motivation behind my friend's behaviour. But I can find none. She tried to seduce me, she sought to manipulate me, she used emotional blackmail and lied "selectively" to make sure I would meet her needs, when a simple "please" or "thank-you" would have produced the same result. In consequence, I am left alone with an impenetrable mystery that remains beyong the grasp of human rationality. And my mind benumb any time I reflect back on my experience. It feels like sitting in a silent unreality ... .with a mixture of moral outrage, frustration, and profound sorrow churning in the pit of my stomach.

Modiano -

Au contraire, my friend.  In my experience, human behaviour is eminently sane.  You could pretty much craft a syllogism from it.

What's not so on-the-mainland is the ASSUMPTIONS from which the syllogism is derived.

"My feelings are the result of something that is happening now.

I feel pain.

Something is being done to me right now to cause me pain."

Two and three seem pretty elementary, don't they?  And for a healthy person, #1 is a pretty safe bet as well, most of the time, yeah?

So that assumption would work just fine... .if one were, say, in a hostage situation, or in a boxing ring.  Not so fine if you're actually... .oh... .in the middle of a romantic dinner, and the way the waiter is acting reminds you of what your dad did when you were five and... .you haven't consciously made that connection, so who do you blame it on?  Who?  Why, your dining companion.  Yes!  That MUST be it!  You're dining companion secretly HATES you, THAT'S why you're feeling this way!  Aaahh!... .Panic at the disco!  Rage!  Lashing out! What have you!

See what I mean?


G.

Glad to help Warner.

Here is a tissue, blow, ok hug, biiiiiiiig bear hug... .

bless you tonight Warner

bunny

I just threw my computer on the floor with the convulsions from the laughter... .

sweet lord- wahahahahahaaaaaaaa

An Gam- I was out Tiara shopping today- I kid you not- and then I came home and I saw this - I could feel you typing it... .:D

whoo... .sigh... .

but look, I think Warner can wear a Tiara if he likes. It is important that he express himself.  And besides, I WAS tiara shopping for a boy today by the way- his y chromosome looks suspiciously like an X- but it is a Y  :)

Which brings me to the symobol which I beleive is utter genious... .   

                                                                                                I


Without the face though -

Modiano,

While the general point of your post- that at the end of the day, what matters is that you are no longer friends with this person- is well understood,

I would be very careful about 2 things- where you place the responsibility for your being in that frienship and how it went down, and how you allow authors to make "facts that no one would dispute"- particularly when you are searching for emotional resolution.

None of the "facts" that were stated are actually facts and are one opinion along the line of moral relivatism.  There are many cultures who do not share this "modern ethic".  The point I make here, is not to debate the usefulness of the particular "facts", but to open the possibility that you can think about your experience in many ways simultaneously, you can take is as an opportunity to grow and understand yourself and become a better person -you have many choices- this contemporary philosopher seems to be limiting you to one point of view which is very black and white and applies to one culture- and it does not seem like it has helped you to get rid of that feeling in your stomache  :-\


Sincerely,

Bunny

"In my experience, human behaviour is eminently sane." Wow ... .that's a stretch, and if it's not that, it's a blatant effort to be contarian on a board where people are searching desperately to find the 'logic' or 'reason' in what the majority of humanity would see as 'unreasoned,' 'irrational,' or otherwise 'insane' behavior. Modiano's post is one of the more insightful and lucid interpretations of why it is 'traumatic' to be in the middle of, and in the recovery from a realtionship with a BPD, trying to look at the connection (or perhaps lack of) between the moral/ethical framework within which we relate to others and the 'behaviors'; which are often seen with BPD's (lying, manipulation, abuse, cheating, irrational control, etc.). His post is an outstanding one ... .the best one on this thread so far.

To say that "human behavior is eminently sane" in the context of his post flies in the face of practically 'everything' I've seen on this board, which as a whole is a testimony on no less than an epic scale that the 'insanity' of the human behavior BPD's manifests on a galactic scale. Indeed, I doubt that the DSM and about a thousand texts on this subject and other personality disorders would ever have been written if all of human behavior was 'sane' or followed the model of "syllogisms" ... .to suggest that BPD behavior even resembles a syllogism is quite a mystery in itself. Heck, the entire psychiatric industry (not to mention the military/industrial complex) can retire to day if "human behavior is eminently sane." Furthermore, the fundamental position here (across 95% of this board) is that BPD behavior is most often quite bizarre and irrational for healthy people to understand ... .to contradict this by saying that the behavior IS "eminently sane" but it's the "assumptions" that have been faulty ... .well, this is just smoke and mirrors and sidestepping away from the important point that Modiano is making ... .it doesn't achieve anything productive.

BPD behavior IS definitively and categorically 'insane' ... .to say otherwise (or to argue that it is in fact 'sane' is a bit odd, and seems to deserve better explanation. Modiano wrote an excellent post ... .well-written, thought-out, and referenced ... .a post that contributes in the context of where this thread started, and which reflects the inner experience of many who've tried to comprehend this most 'insane' of disorders. A reply suggesting that BPD behavior is 'sane' or follows a 'syllogism' in even the remotest way, is ... .well, unproductive, irrational, and somewhat counterproductive in terms of the general direction of this thread. Just "my experience" of this thread, of course.

LOL.

8472, if that works for you, I say, keep it.

HappyBunny, you are absolutely right.

Who am I to insist on rigid gender stereotypes?

Warner -- you slap on the biggest, most ostentatious tiara you can get your hands on if it makes you happy.  Hey - can I have that codpiece, then?

"LOL"

That was pretty much my reaction to the post of 02:37:38, too, except that I was in hysterics.

Happybunny, sorry to rain on the parade, but Gambaru's vote does not, in fact, make you 'absolutely' right, for to be 'absolutely' right you'd have to be empirically 100% right, and if not that, then 100% at least democratically. You don't have my vote on your statement, so your not 'absolutely' right, sorry. Modiano quotes: "that it is a bad thing to be manipulated or hurt, is not an opinion: it is a fact. That it is better for people to be loved and attended to, rather than ignored or blackmailed, is again a plain fact, not a matter of opinion." Our essential wordlview is founded on basic ideas like this, the 'fact' that it is a bad thing to be hurt or manipulated, just like it's a fact that walking in front of a freight-train is going to hurt. We can twist the 'assumptions' around until we have different sets of conditions where there's a nominal chance that an anticipated outcome may not happen, but in the real world we try to work with core beliefs ('facts', which help us sort out the reality around us. Some will argue that you can throw in a witches brew of 'assumptions' that will make the whole human condition 'sane,' which, of course, is not true, because the human condition (especially with relevance to BPD) is decidedly 'insane' for the most part. The facts of what happened (he/she lied continuously, he/she cheated continuously, he/she systematically destroyed the relationship), are the 'realities' (read: facts) of what things transpired to create all the chaos, the entropy ... .we have to work with the 'facts' of what happened to improve our lives, whether we're sick or not; it's all we have. Diminishing the truthfulness of the idea that "it is better not to be manipulated or hurt" ... .making this LESS than fact does not help people in disentangling the mess that has become of their lives. These are not the ideas of only 'contemporary philosophers' ... .these beliefs are as old as time, and they apply to much more than one culture. In fact, I would challenge you to name for us a culture that believes that we are better served in our lives to be manipulated and hurt ... .this would support your contention here ... .to name one. I venture a guess that Modiano, if he/she still has a pit in his/her stomach, it's not because he/she only subscribes to the ideas of the author which has been quoted (which appears to be the case: I do, too) ... .no, indeed, it's perhaps moreso because of the totally chaotic, capricious, topsy-turvy, bizarre worldview/behaviors he/she has been exposed to. That's why it's "traumatic." That's why this thread was started ... .because of the non-sense of the thinking and behavior. That's what tracer was (I suppose) trying to fathom when he started this thread. It's all trauma-based. This whole world's a mental hospital because of 'trauma,' and saying that 'facts'' aren't facts, and that a victim's suffering is misplaced because of all the nebulous and shifting "assumptions," ... .well, it's dodging the bullet, but it's not altering the FACT that these people are ILL, and the FACT that they cause a lot of suffering.

8472-

I am not really that invested in the debate about "facts" and philosophy in terms of Mondiano's contribution, so I don't think I will be going down that road here by offering examples to fuel a diversionary debate I specifically commented on that I did not think was on topic here.  I think you might have missed the point I made, as well as the statement I made about debating particular "facts" as being NOT the point.  The point you missed is that it was a gentle reminder that "facts" and philosophers in general are not the only resources we need, or have, to deal with emotional situations like this, and that perhaps if in gently reminded that it is ok to take what is useful and to leave the rest, then we might find a mixture of tools that suits us as individuals, to get through it.  Specifically because you brought up the point of M again at the end- then obviously, if any person is still torn apart, they could use more tools or more effective tools-

And to be VERY CLEAR - because you also did not read carefully the thread, and linked me and Gambaru in kind of a disparaging way - please read the thread again and note the mistake you made, which I feel inspired kind of a not nice tone in your response to me and your response to Gambaru (but that is not my battle and I will not go beyond what I feel I observed).

I will copy and paste it here for your refernece.

We are all strangers here getting to know one another and talking about difficult, and highly emotionally charged things. In what way could giving the benefit of the doubt or not assuming that people are less educated or experienced or savvey than we are, contribute to not hurting feelings or stepping on toes?



GAM:  Well, OK, Warner, but boys don't get to wear tiaras.  I'm just saying. 

<brightens>  How about an extra-large codpiece instead?



Bunny: An Gam- I was out Tiara shopping today- I kid you not- and then I came home and I saw this - I could feel you typing it... . 

whoo... .sigh... .

but look, I think Warner can wear a Tiara if he likes. It is important that he express himself.  And besides, I WAS tiara shopping for a boy today by the way- his y chromosome looks suspiciously like an X- but it is a Y   

Gam:  HappyBunny, you are absolutely right.

Who am I to insist on rigid gender stereotypes?

Warner -- you slap on the biggest, most ostentatious tiara you can get your hands on if it makes you happy.  Hey - can I have that codpiece, then?

Happybunny

One thing I have found out, when I was able to figure out honestly why the relationship with dBPDh was so traumatic. I discovered the reason was that I had to deal with my hang-ups also, and in order to put things into the right perspective. Once done, things began to flow better as I focused on where my energy was needed. Educating myself on BPD, discovering what were his and my hang-ups, and this lead me to understand how I got into the relationship in the first place and why I had continued to stay in it when he was so unhealthy. Sounds easy but trust me it was allot of hard work in the making, and even before he had been diagnosed.   :P

Ann

::)

Good evening... everyone...

I was reading with such interest... the ideas that were on this thread and all I could so was shake my head... over and over...

I even went for a long walk tonight and thought of some of what was said... and here are my thoughts...

We all cant believe... they dont love  us because... it was complete and utter farce... We think they did a 180 and they did... because quite frankly folks... it was unbelievable... it is all seemed too good to be true... it was...

lik eu never had alove like htis before... where someone expressed them selves so effectively... was so intense...

because Normal people take alot of time to to build up to that kind of feeling...

Someone said... NO one ever loved me like that...

Well to be honest... was it love at all.

NO>> Im sorry... and yes I too have been on the receiving end of someone adoring me like I was a princess only to be tossed in a heartbeat...

IT makes you sick...

and i did nothing wrong...

except fall for some one who... had mental illness.

I am slowly getting over it...

I feel so stupid... literally...

like i was had...

I dont ache for it anymore...

I know it was all fake anyway now...

He didnt feel it anymore than  the door knob...

I just keep telling myself... normal people dont act like that...

It was even hard for me to grasp at first... that someone could love like that... and once I was lured in...

close beyond...

Bam... .

NO contact... dumped...

IN the end he still tryed to have me hanging on.

I cut the cord... hard...

I had to make him accountable for his actions...

and someone said they would find someone esle to suck dry...

and he did...

im sure...

I NEVER IN my life have run into a man like this...

He admitted to me. that he had Borderline depression... and described his symptoms to a tee... what BPD is...

excpet i dont hink he cut himself...

He was very very prone to sulk... and be flying high... the next minute...

very angry... and could go off on me easily...

but could express himself unlike any man i have ever encountered...

YOU would have thought I was a love like no other for him...

We all will be fine eventually...

I just needed to read this stuff over and over... its like a warm sauve on a wound ... helping to heal it...

Thankyou all for being here...

hugs

exactly... .in my saga she is now pregnant with our child who is due in 7 weeks and she is not talking to me... .i am terrified

for my daughter... .it is a sad way to become a father for the first time... .if i had known... .so many things... .how can i walk

away?... .she has friends who are convinced i am to blame... .

how do i leave my own flesh and blood with someone capable of such hurt ?  of course, she has money, and more pride and anger

than anything else, so she'll fight tooth and nail... .

i pray for peace : it has been nowhere in my life for two months... .

she is simply not kind... .

she has no notion of my pain or that her behavior is wrong... .

i tried to address an issue from july where she raged about something illogical in an email

from a few weeks ago, and she was upset that i had not asked about her recent yoga trip... .

just total random emotional disconnect... .

i am seeing several therapists right now as this is pure crisis for me, my work, my life

my faith in love and my anxiety for my daughter and my complete loss as to how to proceed... .

we are not married ... .she lives in england... .

it could not be more complicated or peculiar

it's great to be the physical embodyment - the vessel - of some dead parents neglect... .

injustice is a word that keeps coming... .


peace and strength to all


- justin

I know this is an old thread. I wanted to say that your story hear is quite literally verbatim mine. Down to a T. I broke up with mine first because like you I was just getting tired of all the criticism. Like you, I think I triggered her doing that. And like you, I searched afterwards for the girl I knew before to no avail. Like you, everything I did became at fault with her. And like you long ago poster, I was discarded and ignored. Today is my 2 month anniversary of NC radio silence initiated by her.

This is verbatim my story. Just insane to read this. 9 years later I'm reading a thread from 2006 and to say that the similarity is uncanny to my own story, would be an understatement. Wow.

I agree with a lot that sad bunny has said, however, there was no "tricking" me. My ex's BPD stuff didn't seriously kick in until we had been together over 6 yrs. I vetted her. I had too much to lose to be with a woman with two very young kids so there was no way I was going to fall for her "you're so wonderful" stuff. I know what I am, but I had no idea what she was, so it took almost 7 months that we just dated. It took another 5 for me to determine that she wasn't someone out to "trick" me, and  behavior didn't change. If anything, she became more loving.

Even after 6.5 years, when she first did her "gotta go" split, she did not devalue me. That didn't begin until the last 4 months of our relationship. At that point she started saying comments that were hurtful, and criticizing me. In other words, we were together almost 9 years before she ever devalued me. In other relationships I have been in, I have been devalued lying before the end of the relationship, so I knew what I was looking for if it happened.

Besides her abrupt departure and silent treatment, the two most traumatic things have been the devaluing and knowing that she did it just so she could have sex with someone else. It defies any ounce of logic. In other words, I could be loving, kind, supportive, giving, you name it, and it wasn't going to matter. Apparently nothing I was going to do was going to change what happened. And unlike so many here whose SO's BPD traits showed up after a short time together mine didn't. She was a loving person at least 87% of the time. For me the trauma isn't just in that, but in knowing that it could happen again, because mine was so high functioning, I couldn't have possibly seen this coming.

BurnedBad, your quote says it all, why I "fell" and why I stayed:  "but could express himself unlike any man I have ever encountered... .YOU would have thought I was a love like no other for him."  Bingo, that's it.  Thanks for sharing. 

About three  years back into my r/s I was on a lot of steroids I had a lot of rage and she used to needle me complain and just trigger me it got to a head once where I smashed her stuff well that was the beginning of the end she threatened to leave  that and her BPD/PPD father which she used to triangulate me with  even though I sorted my anger out , stopped steroids became the most supportive loving loyal , guy fixed up my life went back to work did everything I could the trust and her fathers triangulation doomed everything he put it in her head I was just using her for her money (bull___) that I was going to quit my job (I'd be working three years ) once we bought a house , that I was going to divorce her and take half of everything she worked for (bull___) basically all the stuff that POS did to her mother .

No matter what , no matter how hard I tried.  her resentment , her anger , her paranoia her unhappiness just got worse . her blame , her moods , her need for soothing .

I detest her father not just for tuning our r/s but because he is a sorry excuse for a man a husband and a father and the main reason my x is so damaged .

Even after the BU she still thinks I used her for her money and feels anger towards me because of that paranoid nonsense .  she even told my bro six months out that she was sure I would quit my job and leave her with the mortgage .

This is all the thoughts her pos father put in her head . so know I now I was not just dealing with her BPD traits but his PPD/BPD/aspd

So yeah that's why its so hard for me  because I busted a gut to keep the r/s and her happy to be thrown in the garbage used and discarded , slandered ,  ignored minimised blamed and left to the wolves .

I detest her for what she did but more than that I detest myself for even still caring and loving her after all that .

I SO relate to a lot of the comments made about why its so hard to let go. I relate esp to the feeling of being derrailed and abandoned and then treated as a nobody. I was with my ex ( did not realise she was BPD until after b-up) for nearly 6 yrs on and off. I left her as her criticism, silent deadly treatment and coldness became too much. The idealised love bombing had stopped a few years before but she still 'loved' me etc - she is truly emotionally and to some extent mentally dysfunctional and distorted and I stayed TOO long. I do feel for her despite the very harsh abuse in every way- she is SO removed from her true self and lives off a host rrplacement at all times. I still love her - cannot deny that but I wqould NEVER return to that war zone again. I can only hope she hits a rock bottom one day and seeks help but she hates counselling of any kind and insists: 'there's nothing wrong with me... .have no issues' oh REALLY!

I can relate to all of the posts. Like every ones story on here the beginning was so good, the things she told me no woman told me before. Then I started to notice the lies, then she started to act different ex: she would call me over for dinner then she would criticism me for being 30 years old and not being able to eat properly, she would warn me not to come over unannounced. She would tell me you don't text me enough or your texts are to short, towards the end she tells me you didn't  text me enough. She would always tell me that i don't care enough about her and that i will find someone younger and better looking, then she would tell me that am over reacting when clearly i could tell that she is doing something behind my back and then few days later she would text me sating " I don't know why you are so patient with me, but i want you to know that am thankful"  She would cancel our plans the last minute, at the start I would tolerate ti but i few times i told her hey whats the problem why do you keep doing this, boy would she get angry. The sex was regular at the start, later only when she wanted to, her reason for not wanting sex, oh all you want is sex, i got my period, you don't cum and it does my head in, you dont find me attractive enough and am paranoid. So many things it drove me insane, and i STILL  think i should of been more patient with her and that it might of worked

*mod*

This is a worthwhile topic of discussion, but this thread has reached its post limit. Please feel free to continue the discussion in a new thread.

Turkish