BPDFamily.com

I've come to the conclusion that I am going to stop apologizing for everything.  I'm tired of it, and 90% of the time, I really haven't done anything to apologize for.  It's just him pointing out all my faults and me trying to avoid a fight!  LOL!

At any rate, I have yet to come up with a good replacement for 'I'm sorry'.  Is there such a phrase?  I want to cut him off, but not start a big fight.  :)oes that make sense?  Has anyone come up with a good substitute phrase, that doesn't put the blame back on you?

So far, I've started saying 'Oh, well.' But that just doesn't seem strong enough.  I said it this morning and got 'Oh, so now it's my fault again!' thrown in my face.  I just laughed it off like a joke.  I just want to stop the blame game without starting a fight.  Is that possible?

Andrena,

Instead of "I'm sorry" how about "I'm leaving - good bye"!

With BPD's nonething is EVER their fault. They are ill & they will never get well until they decide to - if ever!

-NHBB

andrena, the biggest mistake we non's make is saying I'm sorry  ;==  

This makes us look weak and does nothing but put a big bull's eye on our foreheads - it won't end until you look and act stronger.  :)on't fight with him if its not worth fighting over.  Walk away, AND don't laugh at him. Let him figure out how to calm himself down.  This was SO hard for me to do at first, but I am conditioning myself - it's working wonders.

Good luck!

~ Cali

I agree with those above me.

I also know it sounds old, as my niece said it years ago (shes in her 20's now) but I still like

"Whatever"

I used to apologize over and over as well.  So I do know where you are coming from. I left and never once said, I'm sorry.  I'm not, I am glad I'm out and free of that mess.

Peace4us

You could give me the response I've gotten recently from my stbxBPDh - "say's you... ."  real mature, eh?

Honestly though, best response is no response... .nada... .nothing... .zilch... .just detatch and walk away.

The problem is, there is no rational thought process with them.  SWOE suggests ways to deal with this, I think.  You can explain your point and stick to your guns.  But, I always found that explaining my point was starting down a rabbit hole and she would debate with me, and it was just pointless, pointless.  And, it was too hard for me to not argue back.  I'll admit one of my flaws: I have to be heard and understood so a relationship with a BP is not good for me (or anyone lol).  Also, I have a bad habit of wanting to have the last word.  Let me go post a reply on every thread now... .  lol!

Thanks for all your responses.

First off, I'm still in the 'comitted to working on it' stage, so I'm not just going to leave.  I understand that to argue with him is pointless.  That's why I got in the habit of just saying 'I'm sorry'.  It was just so much easier.  It made him happy because he got his way.

However... .it's starting to annoy me and I just wanted to come up with something else.  I think maybe I'll start saying 'I'm not going to get into this' and just walk away.  I don't know if that will work, but something's got to be better than saying 'I'm sorry' when I'm not!

You'd think that after 25 years of marriage I would have thought of something by now.

Hi Andrena

I used 'We agree that we see it/things differently then". That left us both with our own view, compromise was not possible, and she seemed to feel validated by it allowing her own view and would usually say 'Yes we do.' and it would be left at that.

I can't say I always remembered to use it though before battle was joined, sometimes it came after.  Eventually sometimes she used it first, which was good.  :)

NHBB,  You nailed it!  I couldn't agree more! 

The opposite of apologizing is to live the life they want us to live.  Either way is insanity.  We can only be the best we can be.  I'm assuming the apologizing you're referring to is about the small stuff in life that the BPD's get angry about.  It's rough.

The only thing that I found that works is not to engage in anything they say when they find faults.  However, that leaves us feeling empty as this is truly as close as we get to them... .we feel the push/pull at that moment.  It's so odd, it's hard to put into words.

Say goodbye and find someone who treats you with respect.  Then again, it's never that easy, especially when kids are in the mix. 

Here's one my T suggested - find a way to agree with them, no matter how small.  Sounds odd, huh? 

For example:

him:  "This kitchen is a mess"

me:  "Yes it is." - cheerfully. 

His underlying message would be that it was a mess, that I should clean it up, that I never do, that the kids should, whatever.  Part of being able to do this is to stop being so defensive and be more accepting of ourselves.  So what if the kitchen is a mess.  The world still goes on, whether he is happy or not.

'its too bad you feel that way'

or 'really' with different intonations after it ie 'really?'

sternly: 'really ummm'

nonchalantly 'really, u dont say'

with disbelief 'really!' as in you cant believe he tried you with his bs again :).

at the end of the day always dealing honestly,  will either free ya, or keep your boundaries intact at least... .its the discomfort in the way that they act that makes us lie to them and ourselves, our own dishonesty in dealing with these folks gives us comfort thru their storms and fools us into thinkin that they will change when in reality WE are the only ones that change to accomodate sht we wouldnt put up with anywhere else in the name of ... .love? nah in the name of not dealing with our own issues that allowed us to stay in a relationship  that was a lie to begin with. they lied to get us to love them and we kept up the lie to get the so called 'love' we believed was real when in reality we knew from the first red flag that all was not right in kansas. this is what we get from not being honest with ourselves.

sorry for being sugarless. not sorry for not condoning a lie. ive done my time.

if your gonna stay, you could always say 'no' before donning your earplugs... .

get free!

- WE... .change to accomodate sht we wouldnt put up with anywhere else... .

- in the name of not dealing with our own issues that allowed us to stay in a relationship  that was a lie to begin with.

... .this is what we get from not being honest with ourselves.

... .it won't end until you look and act stronger.

Once I realized how angry I was at him... .then at myself, I stopped trying to appease him. I stood up to his lies and attempts to hurt me. I told the truth. I told him how I saw the situation and how it made me feel.

This was met with repeated accusations about "how mean" I was and how I had hurt him. I told him that my statements were always in response to something he stated. This is how angry his crap was making me and I wasn't going to lie about it anymore.

It has actually WORKED! He doesn't know what to do when I don't appologize or agree with his warped view... .when I refuse to take the blame. I won't say I get any validation that my feelings are real or my perception of the transaction is valid... .and most often I end the discusiion by leaving.

However, afer  couple hours I usually receive an e-mail or phone call on a neutral topic. He can't bait me into agreeing with his lies, therefore he has to start over again. I feel very good about myself now that I am stating my side of things. He still refuses to take the blame (i.e., responsibility for his own behavior), but now he is left holding his own crap because I refuse to.

The big downside to all this is that the realization of his living these lies and my necessary emotional detachment has killed my feelings of love for him.

I believe that real progress is happening in his changed behaviors, so now my question is, will the love feelings return as he gets his act together?

I can't even imagine being attracted to another man (not that I don't have offers), so I guess I should be Committed... .I mean I should be over in the Committed Board :). But I don't want to fool myself or waste anymore years if this is never going to become a fully satisfying relationship.

Adrena - Stop saying you're sorry. Let him be responsible for his own crap, and find out who you really are behind the lies. Focus on thinking about your feelings and interpretations. It will give you the strength to take a firm, sane stand. It is also very empowering.

One last observation: When I stopped saying "I love you" and stopped acting like I had feelings for him regardless of his behavior, he seemed empty... .unable to reflect back my love and affection to me. It was different than if he had stopped acting affectionate and loving. It was really like he couldn't reflect back because I wasn't projecting. I wonder now if he is capable of love.

Thanks all for your replies.  I have gotten some really good suggestions and I will try to remember them when the time comes!  I have gotten better about not apologizing.  My husband accused me yesterday of being flippant and not caring about things.  I just calmly said there are some things I can't control and I'm not going to worry about them.  No comment from him!

Great answer.  I like it

Peace4us

Just found this website... .for the last 4 years have been wondering what curse this was that I was dealing with and finally somebody mentioned that she might have BPD! Well, the first thing I can tell you is if I had a dime for everytime I have had to say sorry... .can't even imagine!  Lets take valentines day last week, I called her to wish her a happy vd and tell her how much I cared about her,... .she had been ignoring my calls for 2 weeks because of "new job stress" ... .so she didnt answer or return my call... .I text messaged her "I can't believe on valentines day I can't get a return phone call."  The next thing I knew I was being screamed at on the phone for an hour and a half that I am "self centered" and "all I care about is myself"  I found myself doing what I always do... .I'm sorry, I'm sorry... .I have tried so hard to find something that can work instead of it... I work in sales and I consider myself an EXCELLENT salesperson and I am looked at by my boss and peers as such, I honestly thought that I could talk around anybody and box and close any objection but she is always 10 steps ahead of me, there is never a logical thing I could say she doesnt spin around on me over and over again until "I'm Sorry" comes out of my mouth and she finally has won, again... .sometimes I just get so tired of TRYING to convince her that she is being irrational and illogical that the easy way out is just to say... ."Ok, I'm sorry... "

Sorry mate :).  Non's never make a sale to a BPD!  Different rules than the real world.  Glad to hear you have at least found out what you are dealing with, and are in a place where you can find support. That being said the best thing you can do is disentangle yourself now.  Plenty here will tell you, you cant 'fix' this problem and it will destroy you slowly, or quickly to try. 

My Valentines Day story is that I got tricked into having the kids at my place, while she spent a night with her new boyfriend after they had a nice romantic dinner!  I wasn't supposed to have the kids that night.  We had all agreed the previous fortnight that Wednesday night stays were disruptive to the kids school week. Hope you have the strength to get out now. All the best.

You could try whtas called a "sandwich" statement.

A positive with a negative in the middle with another positive on top.

Like, "I can see that you are upset... .I don't agree with your reason but I do undertsnd that you are."  then walk away  unless that gets him to have a sane conversation.

"Committed to escalating it."

You'll see.  When you stop saying "I'm sorry" - then it will get ramped up and so much worse.  THEN you'll say, "I'm leaving, good bye."

Best wishes whatever you choose to do and for however long.

I hate to say it but in my experience the drama & arguments & crap did escalate when I tried to set up boundaries & disengage in her trying to suck me into arguments. I totally agree with Mr. M as that is what I had to got through. It seems like BPD's have an endless need for drama & attention so not engaging with them only forces them to try to be more creative & up their game in order to push our buttons. I'll never forget her flipping out & yelling at me because I scratched my arm in bed & it apparently disturbed her sleep so much that she stormed out of the bed & went to sleep on the couch downstairs. I think I still have the e-mail she sent me 2 days later apolgizing - went something like "what the &*! is wrong with me - like you really wanted to be itchy?". Wish I knew about BPD then. Here woulda been my response: Ummm, you have an untreated illness ya nit wit. But keep ignoring it, I'm sure it'll get better & you'll be much more successful in the future if only you paint me black, distort me to the world, then hook up with many others! I'm sure they will obviously be able to "fix" you. Great plan kiddo! LOL

Good luck with your decision Adrena!

-NHBB

Okay - here is my concern - we can come up with strategies for dealing with them.  I remember apologizing for things I didn't do - it made me sick to my stomach.  BUt I did it to avoid the pain I would get in my stomach when he would become angry or would cold shoulder me.  BUt the real question?  Why do we want to work so hard to come up with the right response, the right affect, etc.?  No matter what we do, we are appeasing them and trying to avoid the fight.  It's all walking on eggshells as far as I'm concerned.  It takes too much energy.  My brain was ready to explode trying to figure out how to handle him - I had to plan for two days for anything that I wanted to ask him to do with me - I had to dance around his rages and his cold shoulder.  It was too much effort - (EMPHASIS SUPPLIED)  F**K IT and F**K HIM - who needs it? 

After years of saying sorry and feeling inferior most of us get to this stage and say   


Bravo. That's what I wanted to say here, glad you did.

Peace4us

The last couple of replies point to the big issue:  We apologize because we want to keep the peace and/or we want to be loved... .  we want to be regarded as "good" again by the BPD partner.  When we start handling these things appropriately; that is, without apologizing or defending, just making a comment and/or ignoring the situation, the BPD will start to feel a lack of control over us... and the behaviors may ratchet up or change forms.  Unless the BPD changes quickly, it will be the beginning of the end (or the middle of the end or the end of the end).  When we develop a certain amount of obectivity about these things, we start to really dislike or simply devalue the BPD... .I mean; how can you still be so enchanted with someone who is proving over and over again that he/she is just really... .  a moron? 

As you pull away and they feel it, then you will get the "you think you are so perfect... .Nobody knows you the way I do" crap. 

Andrena, you may be still hoping for "enlightenment" by your BPDso.  You may still be hoping that he will see the error of his ways and become a decent partner.  That won't happen until/unless he realizes that his behavior is inappropriate and abusive.  I would agree with the others that you shouldn't apologize for something that you didn't do or that is simply something that just happens during the course of the day.  You have a few good responses here... .  you might just say "things happen" and leave it at that.  One of the things that we don't mention here as much as we should is that BPD/NPD types often get to us not by the words they use, but by their attitude, tone of voice, etc.  It's not just that there is a spot left on an item of clothing... .it's that their tone of voice says that you are an incompetent laundry-doer (therefore an incompetent human being) because you didn't see or treat the stain.

In this kind of situation, you need to either ignore it or treat it as if the person said something in a normal tone of voice.  "Just throw it back in the dirty clothes."... .  without emotion or apology.  "You forgot my special food when you were at the grocery store."  "Can you write a note and tape it to the door so I can remember it next time?"  Or:  "I'm not going out again.  If you want it now, you will have to get it yourself."  It's very hard to do this stuff. 

JoannaK,

You bring up some very valid points.  I have said "I'm sorry" just to keep the peace - not to be loved.  I am pretty good at being nonchalant when he complains about groceries.  We have a whiteboard on the fridge that people are supposed to use when we need something.  I simply ask ":)id you put it on the board?".  There's nothing he can say after that - this works with the kids too.  Same goes for laundry - he doesn't like it, he can do it himself.

It's when he twists things around and he says things like ":)on't you think you could have said that in a nicer tone?"  Or ":)on't you think you could have said it in such and such way?"  Needless to say, he doesn't ask that question in a very nice tone.  Of course I probably could have, but we're in the middle of an argument here!  LOL!  I think I just answered my own question - don't get caught up in it!

I'm getting better, but it is hard.  One day at a time.

Andrena... .

You're getting good at this game... .can somebody get this girl a prize!

... .don't get caught up in it... .DETACH... .easy to say, much much harder to do.

I grew up in a household where yelling/arguing/fighting was the norm, so... .I don't mind a good argument now and then, but, with a BPDso arguing just feeds their need for control.  As non's we feel the need to defend ourselves, our parenting, our abilty to do even everyday tasks is almost always under attack from the BPD... .they know our triggers and what wil make us react. 

The underlying issue here is that we are dealing with someone who is mentally ill and cannot have a rational argument.  As nons/rational beings fighting the irrational... .we may as well be Don Quixote fighting a windmill.

This is why I love bpdfamily, point blank statements such as the following:

F**K IT and F**K HIM - who needs it?

The underlying issue here is that we are dealing with someone who is mentally ill and cannot have a rational argument.

How can you still be so enchanted with someone who is proving over and over again that he/she is just really... .  a moron?

Ummm, you have an untreated illness ya nit wit. But keep ignoring it, I'm sure it'll get better & you'll be much more successful in the future if only you paint me black, distort me to the world, then hook up with many others! I'm sure they will obviously be able to "fix" you.

It just doesn't get any simpler than these statements and so many others in all the other threads. Sometimes ya' just gotta call a spade a spade. If it walks like a psycho, talks like a psycho, chances are it's... .A PSYCHO!

--J

Hey Elphaba - your post struck home with me.  He was critical - of so much - I called him a sensorious (harshly critical) misanthrope (people hater).  But here's the funny one - he mostly criticised my parenting - two daughters 17 and 21 - who by all accounts are decent kids - they give me a run for my money once in a while and my eldest can be fresh - but they're good kids, don't get into trouble, my eldest is graduating from a good college, etc.  He has a grown son.  When the boy was three years old, wife number one left him - she moved several hundred miles away and he NEVER say or spoke to the child again until 23 years later, when the reconciled.  They had their shot at it and now do not speak to each other at all.  in fact, my ex wanted to sue his son for some bad business deal that cost him a couple of thousand dollars.  AND he criticised my parenting.  That's pretty funny, isn't it?  Carol

Oh yeah... .my stbxh criticised my parenting CONSTANTLY... .even though he had no experience with parenting when we got together (instant family), as my older two began to mature (now 19, 21), he got worse... .again, these are relatively good kids, no real trouble.  Now, they cannot even stand the site of him or the mention of his name.

Ironically when I talked to him the other day, he told me that the reason that he always had such a hard time with it all was because I was such a GREAT parent that there was no room for him in that.  My girls and I have close relationships and they (shocking) actually talk to me... .if he had just been willing to worry less about control and more about having a good relationship with them, he could have been the "cool, musician step dad" instead of the sensorious misanthrope who wanted to have power over them. 

I refused to apologize for my parenting, I did what I thought was best for my kids when we were together and when I told him to leave the house.  I wish it could have been different, but, it isn't.

oops... sorry for the slight hi-jack... .

Best solution for the subject at hand = detachment... .

I have been caught up in this for years with my BPDh.  I realized there is something in me that has to answer the questions, and before I know what happened, he has taken control of the situation, and I don't know what happened.  I have stopped answering the questions that divert us from the topic at hand.  There is no rule that we have to allow ourselves to be interrogated, and there isn't anything we can say at that point that will change their mind.  We can take charge of the conversation, or leave it altogether.

I know this is an old post, but I can't tell you how many times I have wondered this same thing.  My counselor says to say "hmm... .that's one way of looking at it." Or "that's something I'll have to think about" when confronted with yet another baseless accusation or criticism. 

This is the response I received when apparently I apologized one too many times according to my BPDh:  "I'm sorry but if you can't see that then I'm sorry about being sorry."

Now I never say it. 

I think it is possible.

If you want to work hard, (and i mean work really HARD) on your r/s, you can start using techniques to understand what is upsetting him,talking to him... giving him space... validating,etc.

If you want to stop the blame game right then and there and not care about a fight started from the jam being too sweet or something,then leave the room and do not reply.

Simply tell him you wont talk to him until he stops harassing you,blaming you,set a boundary then stick to it,or zip your mouth and go for a walk until he calms down.

Apologizing,accepting blame will make a pwBPD gradually shift to behaving ninety nine times worse to you.

NEVER APOLOGIZE

Even shifting the blame completely on him and attacking and starting a full fledged row is loads better than apologizing,thus giving him the go,to abuse you more

You know what's really messed up about this? I've apologized a million times about... .nothing just to end arguments about piddly stuff... .until I figured out what the heck his problem is. And just like your counselor, I resolved to finding language that validates his outlook without me admitting guilt or apologising... .this crap has become a challenge for myself. Can I defuse the bomb before it blows my fingers of? Let's find out... .

The other connection I just made here is this language is EXACTLY the type of phrases my boss says to surgeons to calm them down (I work in an OR surgical scheduling) when they don't get what they want or think they are entitled to. I always disliked her politics, mostly because I am so straight forward, that this seems on the cusp of lying to me. But now I've had a total realization that truth is relative to a certain extent, as in I can be honest in what I say, but I need to tailor it because of whom I deal with.

I used to resist the "I'm sorry card" (it really is a card) despite how utterly spent I was, just to convince myself I still had some sort of dignity trickling in somewhere. 

But the alternatives are walking away (which showed me the nuclear meltdowns that causes) or stay and explain, which are a perpetual loop of meltdowns that escalate and downright mutate into madness that makes Alice's world seem peachy. 

When I would resort to the "i'm sorry card" when she'd admit after hours and hours that its "all she needed to hear", it was never all she needed to hear. It was "I'm sorry" and then hours each day slavishly grovelling over what (like you said) was basically either trying to avoid a fight, daring to stand by a principal during whatever random mundane trigger, etc.  Not even hours of the most tender coddling and cuddling took that away, without the above. 

In a sane situation, it would be frowned upon to hide behind the sorry card and grovelling.  I grew into adulthood hearing the wishes of other women to find men who WOULD'NT hide behind that, and who WOULD rather "talk things out" in constructive productive manners.  In this situation, I would've been a thousand times better HAD a been a stereotypical "sorry babe/honey/dear, let me make it up to you" guy.  How backwardass can we get? 

I'm still laughing to myself about my recent confrontation with uBPDh: He had gotten angry over a perceived slight several days earlier... .when he finally decided to approach me with the same old crap about how I'd been so mean to him, I let him have it.

I said that "we are not doing this anymore" - that if he has issues, he can discuss them with me like an adult. I said I am not putting up with his temper tantrums any more - "Not ever again."

I drew a firm boundary followed by a refusal to go away with him for the weekend. I did not want to go and act like everything was "okay" after being given the silent treatment for 10 days. It  seemed to get through to him that I've had more than enough of this nonsense.

I am very disengaged from him now, so, overall, this really isn't much of an accomplishment or improvement. I just wish i had said it earlier in the relationship - years ago.