BPDFamily.com

I had an interesting discussion with a friend who happens to be a psychologist. He said he does not like to use labels or stigmatise indeviduals.

He felt that BPD is a nebulous condition which may not exist in reality?

I gave him a chance to explain.

He felt that some people are just not compatible and it may this incompatibility that people perceive as BPD.

Personally I didnt agree.

My uBPDw has 7/9 longterm criteria (20 years) from my perspective that I have witnessed. Her emotional immaturity fits.

The knowledge I have picked up here and from SWOE has frequently allowed me to predict my uBPDw patterns of behaviour.

From where I sit and my personal experience it is a very real condition but not all pwBPD are the same.

Psychologist and psychotherapists seem to have completely differing ways of looking at things.

?

Your friend clearly has no understanding or experience with BPD.  However, his bottom line point is correct:  for most of us, the answer is to get as far away from a PwBPD as possible.

BW

My thoughts:

Before you had your relationship, had you ever heard of this disorder?  If you did not observe the behaviors of your wife directly, would you have believed someone else's account of similar behavior of their significant other?  Or would you think they were exaggerating?

And let's say hypothetically, you are a psychologist.  How many opportunities would you get first hand to observe a pwBPD's dysregulated behavior?  Remember how able minded they can appear outside the context of an intimate relationship.

I think low-functioning pwBPD might be easier to spot, but for high-functioning pwBPD, I'd bet that most inexperienced therapists would end up getting gas-lighted into believing that the non-spouse is the disordered partner (and to some degree they wouldn't be wrong).

 I totally agree with Schwing...

Also, depends on the specialization and training of the psychologist, therapist, etc... ie: does he specialize in mental illnesses and the DSM...

There is also controversy in the field as to whether BPD is overdiagnosed in women and the whole re-naming the disorder in the next DSM.

My ex-h was high functioning, educated, & a therapist & would easily be able to hide his disordered thinking in therapy & did for a while...

Sounds like your psychologist is just being politically correct.

Lack of compatability is one thing... .but, i.e., in my experience a women not wanting me as more than a friend one minute and crying/begging that I never to leave her and telling me she loves me so much the next minute and then dropping me altogether  by email?  Something is wrong with the woman I knew.

Sadly, political correctness and avoiding stigmatizing people is more important to psychologists that giving a true diagnosis.

No.

Being politically correct: "I think your daughter may have BPD."

Not being politically correct: "I think your daughter is an egocentric narcissistic btch."

They recently removed NPD from the DSM, but that doesn't mean that there aren't still thousands of individuals who fit every criteria for that disorder. Labels are not the point, the pattern of behavior speaks for itself. The label is there so that we all know what we're talking about. That being said, it wouldn't surprise me if BPD eventually evolves into two or more separate PDs--the more that I read on this site, as well as other material, the more I see the difference between the higher and lower functioning BPDs as being a fairly significant one.

This discussions makes me wonder why BPD is like the black sheep of the personality disorders? Maybe the name should be changed.

I was  divorced from my exwife after 13 years of marriage. A lot had changed through  the years .We tried to keep it together but too much had changed. We shared a child together (now grown) and  for the most part are friends. .That is  INCOMPABILITY !

See my recent post about Strange Validation and myexBPDgf  being in the newspapers for  biting someone .That's Is BPD !

Given there are various degrees of functioning but a lot of psychologists just  don't know that much about BPD.If you with were a raging alcoholic with that be a  lack of compatibility ?

NO ONE is "compatible" with a person who suffers from BPD.  How can you be "compatible" with a person who's hollow on the inside? And just because a person is a psychologist doesn't mean they aren't ignorant. In this case ignorance meaning this person simply has very little to no diagnostic experience in working with people who suffer from this disorder.

I say this because I'm currently seeing a therapist and she knows very little about BPD. Because of her ignorance I often come sprinting to the BPD family forum because of my therapist's inability to understand what I'm really going through. She thinks my ex is simply a jealous, control freak... .a fluke... .a mistake... .a mishap... .

But that's so the contrary.

Of course it's a lack of compatibility. You're a reasonable adult, she's a lunatic.    At some point I think we all have to give up the idea of ever being really validated and just move on and own our choices for ourselves. Not saying I'm practicing what I preach, I'm having a difficult time not trying to analyze or fix or convince my uBPDw to go into therapy, but my objective side pretty much knows the score. We are on our own and have to develop the tools and strength to be ok with that.

I think most of us here have differentiated between incompatible relationships (which I am sure we have all experienced to some degree) and the rollercoaster that is a BPD relationship.

The man I had children with is not BPD. We are no longer a compatible couple. We have had issues. But we are now civil and friendly. We have never together experienced even a 1/3 of the drama I had with BPDexbf. I KNOW I can have a fairly normal healthy relationship, because I have achieved it before.

I can also speak from having a very obviously disordered parent. I don't see how my parent and I were incompatible, NOR am I willing to accept that abuse is just poor parenting, low IQ or any other such nonsense. I was abused by him.  He is mentally ill, disordered, unstable. Label as you will

I am sure others who have a BPD parent or child would probably feel pretty upset by this perception.

Utter craziness, MJJ... .I don't get that psychologist at all? Incompatibility? Please... .

others posted this too - if you hadn't lived it, studied it and been effected - would you believe it?

MY OPINION ONLY ON THIS NEXT PART:

so, pharma & insurance run medical - if there was $$ tied to BPD, we would have a lot more info on it.  Lord knows, we all know about viagara.  However, it seems they are attempting a  rename or rebrand  (WG suggestion) - the bipolar 2 diagnosis could be considered in a similar world as BPD and covered by insurance.

the other problem - many people have a stigma to eastern philosophy and dbt is based in mindfulness which relates to buddhism

lastly, as a culture narcissism is encouraged - look at youtube and reality TV.  we will see more and more PD's until more mindfulness and tolerance is taught to children. 

Back to the post... .

I am sorry MJJ that you were invalidated by someone perceived as a professional.  Funny how 6 months of being on these boards, we know more than 50% of trained therapists on this specific disorder.

I'm with seeking balance.  |iiii

There's no money in it for the money makers and that's why most of us have never heard of this disorder until it's disrupted our lives in a most unpleasant way. We all know about Cialis, Allegra, and all kinds of birth control but very little about many Personality Disorders such as BPD cause there's no associative "pill" cure all.

If there was a pill that our loved ones could swallow you could have sent me on a rocket ship to the last planet in the galaxy to get it for my BPDexbf. I would have done anything in this world to make him better.  :)

I, too, am sorry that you were invalidated, that is crazymaking for me, my therapist is familiar with BPD but always would talk about my ex always externalizing blame while I internalized it, I wish she had said she was BPD, but thankfully these boards helped me and my therapist then agreed and validated it.

This board has helped so many which is why I contributed some money, rather pay for validation than invalidation.   

And that is interesting about the insurance companies... .

The criteria used to put "the label" on someone is a well defined repeating pattern of behavior in close personal relationships. The pattern of behavior is either there or it is not. Is he suggesting that the pattern of behavior is caused by who the BPD choses for their partners? Is this the "they just haven't met the right person yet" theory? I witnessed the changing of the guard for my BPD's parents. When we first met dad was black and mom was white. After spending thanksgiving week with mom and stepdad. Mom went black and dad went white. Has she just not met the right parents yet? Honestly... .the opinion sounds a bit nutty. If he doesn't like the term or calling people mentally ill... .to each his own I guess. But really... .all the label boils down to is describing a repeating pattern of dysfunction in a specific person's personal life.

The suicide rate in people diagnosed with BPD is roughly 10 percent. The overall suicide rate is roughly 12 per 100,000 in the US. The "labeling" is good for identifying people in the most emotional trouble. Hospitals can at least identify the problem and those most at risk. It is sad that we(as a society) don't know how to get most of these people into long term treatment(since that seems to be the only thing that helps them) or that there isn't a magic pill to swallow and make it all go away. Maybe your friend can start a dating site and help them meet the right person?

I agree with the others that said your friend just hasn't seen it. Unless someone has been there first hand, I don't think they could really ever understand it. It's an insidious disorder to say the least. Granted, I'm sure there is a little bit of that out there - people who think their ex must have something wrong with them, but this is soo different.

 

I also disagree, my ex has a long, long, long list of incompatible women in his black book.  If i was this psychologist, i'd perhaps change that statement to "Some people are just not compatible with anyone"  I find it hard to understand why an educated person who makes judgements based on personal/individual behaviours, would come away with a statement like that.

With all due respect, tell your friend he's full of it.  It doesn't exist, right.  That's why all of us are so traumatized.  That is why mine threw away a wonderful woman like I was a piece of trash.  That is why he was married to his first wife for six weeks, his second for one year (she is also one of the richest people in our state), that is why he just went out to she his parents and punched out his 75 year old father, got in another fist fight with someone else, and is so dysfunctional that he cannot pay his cell phone bill, get his billing done, etc.

Psychologist like him are why I try to stay away from them.  I know that I am coming on a little strong right now but I'm going back into my anger phase about all of this.

Look on the bright side, at least you didn't have to pay him for his opinion. FWIW, Psychologists are being politically correct in avoiding labels because studies have shown that many women (fewer Men) are being misdiagnosed with Borderline traits after (or during) a cluster B relationship. (*raises hand) IMO, Borderline traits can be acquired and situational due to compatibility with my mirrored self and childhood wounding.

Like everyone else has stated; Borderline is a persistent and unstable sense of self that seeks to attach to others for survival. The attachment becomes a failed solution to a systemic problem, i.e.; the failure to separate/individuate and become an independent human being. For most people who have been in a Borderline relationship, the idealization phase becomes addictive and difficult to maintain, thereby causing some counter-transference back to the Borderline partner that involves fear and control. Carpe the chaos becomes the motto for the relationship. Doesn't matter if it's friendship, romantic or therapeutic- the unstable and distorted perceptions are a belief system to a Borderline.

James Masterson wrote a book about therapists that get blindsided by Borderlines. I'm sure that if your friend stays in business long enough, he's likely to run into one or two. I hope that he isn't too much of a Narcissist to think that his client's "acting out" behaviors are due to his incompatibility with her as her therapist. That would be unprofessional.

How well do you know your friend?

Any chance he himself is BPD?

i agree with oth, and harlemgurl among others.

BPD is an attachment disorder. on one level, they're compatible with almost anyone. we've all met the mirror. on the other hand they're compatible with no one. their needs are impossible to meet, and they cannot meet yours. they can't sustain a healthy relationship because of disordered thoughts, feelings, needs, perceptions and fears.

plus, seriously, how do you find "compatibility" with a person who rages? unless you love to rage or be raged at, which would just be sick, not compatible.

Can I just say "I did not agree with my friend".

I really believe that unless you have lived it you will never understand it.

I think my friend has their own issues, abusive parent (perhaps why they studied psychology), no stable long term realtionships, insecure at times but othertimes self righteous, somewhat imature emotionally.

They are intelligent but no first hand experience of BPD (unless he has BPD and not told me, might explain his attitude to labels).

I am with you guys.

My uBPDw patterns have been their since I met her 20+years ago. They have not changed only instead of being directed at the outside world she did what I least expected she directed them at me the one person who has always been there for her.

I did not know about BPD until we had agreed to separate. To me this whole thing is like some magical mystery tour.

I feel I still have no idea what happened and yet thanks to bpdfamily I totally understand and can predict her patterns.

Even those who claim to bemental health  professionals can really get it wrong in a big way.

I still too feel exactly the same way.

Funny.

plus, seriously, how do you find "compatibility" with a person who rages? unless you love to rage or be raged at, which would just be sick, not compatible.



THIS IS EXACTLY THE AHA MOMENT FOR ME, HOW CAN I BE CLOSE WITH SOMEONE ANGRY ALL THE TIME! I used to think it was my job to endure it, put out the flames, figure it out, now I know no one does that, it does not produce intimacy it hurts it destroys it.  And when I have lapses this one sentence reality bases me... .

Exactly.  The pwBPD is stuck in that sick cycle of making sure people abandon them; whether they hate themselves or whatever... .Yeah, they MAKE themselves incompatible with everyone else.

So to say there is no BPD, only "incompatible issues" is the UNDERSTATEMENT of the year, which is the same as minimizing it.  What is the one thing therapists NEVER do?  Minimize things.

i guess this means your friend sucks in his profession.   lol :light:

|iiii

Your friend the psychologist is absolutely incorrect. I too am a psychologist and my ex fiancé has BPD. I have trained to treat BPD and those who suffer from r/s with BPDs, and I still got myself involved in an incredibly unhealthy and toxic r/s with one. It is simply impossible to describe. A bit of history on BPD, it was first recognized by Freud, he used the term for those who bordered on the edge of neurosis and psychosis. Over the years and through the evolution of the DSM, the text used to diagnose mental illness, it has morphed into what it has now become. In a convoluted way, your friend is slightly correct. People who have experienced a healthy childhood and successfully made their transitions through the critical mental and emotional developmental milestones and possess significant ego strength would run from a BPD person as quickly as possible. So there is a compatibility aspect. Those of us who do get unhealthily enmeshed with BPDs are also suffering from a mental disorder to some extent. That's the sad part. So, BPD is real, the criteria and symptoms of those diagnosed with it are very clear and diagnosable yet confusing. The real problem, or I guess question is, what do we need to fix in ourselves to help us understand why we would tolerate such degrading behavior for so long and when we get the opportunity to escape, we beg for more. I myself know I am somewhat codependent and as painful as it is to admit, masochistic. After enough therapy and inner healing, whether or not BPD exists is irrelevant. I will be whole person and won't waste my time, money, emotion and energy on a person with BPD. I will recognize it immediately and know instinctively to run and avoid any type of r/s. I'm not quite there yet, but T 3 times a week and tons of internal work is getting me

closer and closer each day. I see my ex as a very sick individual who is not capable of

causing nothing but excruciating pain to whoever does get involved with her. But, her

condition is real and it is called Borderline Personality Disorder. As far as the $ aspect goes,

they can be treated because there are typically other diagnosis that are present that go

hand and hand with BPD that are billable. The real problem is; most psychologists, therapists, whatever refuse to treat people with BPD because they cause the therapist to

suffer greatly and question their ability to perform their profession. We hate to treat them

and most refuse. 

Allow T to live it for 13 yrs. Then have him read up on BPD. Watch him post like a madman. Come to think about it. Is it possible he is BPD ? That would make more sense.

I agree with WhiteDoe.

I chortled.  lol

Yes.  Amazing.  Why in the world did I think that it was my job to endure this from someone that I was not married to, did not have children with, that did not support me?

Boy he really lost out.  Who else is going to be that strupid?

Our name is legion, lovey. 

Now *that's* funny!   :)

I have worked in mental health and I would agree with the Psychologist that any mental disorder, not only BPD,  would be nebulous or lacking clear definition without precise diagnostic criteria. The ':)SM' - Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders has established that criteria. There are nine identifiable factors of which five or more must be recognized in order to establish the BPD diagnosis. Thus, it is not vague or unclear.

He is correct that people very often have some of these traits or are just simply incompatible, so relationships eventually break down and fail.  I have also read quite a few posts here that sound more like that was the case, and not BPD.

Haha, I've known "incompatible".  There's a relative normalcy to incompatible.  I've also known "highly dysfunctional" (ex husband was an alcoholic, prone to violence, 13 car accidents, 4 DUI's, etc.).    

Nothing, but nothing came close to the time with my exbf who I believe to be BPD'd.  Nothing.  That was a mind**** in a league all its own.  

Incompatible?  Pfffffft.  

Incompatible is two mature people trying things on for size and then deciding they don't jive as a couple.  

Highly dysfunctional doesn't generally wear a disguise.  It's a visible hot mess, and what you see is what you get.  

BPD gets an award for not only feigning normalcy, but managing to feign over-the-top *wonderful* while all the while underneath the wonderful disguise sits one extra large, piping hot, bucket o' crazy, extra crispy.   ;p

Incompatible, my fanny.  

Haha, classic.  |iiii

I would use that for a tag line if I actually did any posting.   *)

+1!

Livia, your post is just totally perfect. Thank you.  |iiii

This "incompatibility" angle has actually played out weirdly in our relationship. The first time this concept was interjected (I believe by me), it felt like some great burden was lifted. Unfortunately for the following years, the "incompatible" talk morphed into something akin to a breakup talk. When we've had that talk, it seems to provide A LOT of relief for uBPDh -- as much as that first time, which I find odd. It became the "relief" at the end of a round of insanity. It would calm him, and at that tipping point he'd go from lion to lamb.

Is that some oddball type of rapid recycling, like the painful thought of breaking up sent him straight back to idealizing me?

Who knows, maybe we're just not compatible, maybe we're two normal people that together make something unsavory. But really, in my wildest dreams, I never imagined I would marry someone I didn't believe I was *compatible* with. The fact the questioning started almost 9 years in (as I started coming out of the FOG) is a testament to the dysfunction in our relationship.

Hey my ex will tell you yourself, she told me, it's not BPD she just suffers from:

"anxiety, panic attacks, severe lack of self esteem, no feeling of purpose, emotionally impulsive decisions, cycles of depression, unsafe sexual practices, spending binges, obsessive behavior, suicidal thoughts and manipulations, all or nothing thinking, and that she lives in the now and doesn't believe in planning for the future".

I suppose that means she's not compatible with me... .or more like any partnership... .

I'm an IT professional but I don't know every programming language.

Livia,

I am exhausted and worn from a long, long day. Your post sent me into a fit of giggles.

C

 lol |iiii

Now that makes my day.  You know... .He even came with a side of potatoes and two buttermilk biscuits.  Why I didn't see... .red-flag

:)

Can add at this stage my friends interest in psychology stems from him having his own issues and a desire to work on his own stuff.

He is single but is working.

His father was physically abusive to him as a child

At times his thinking is all over the place >> I have loads of friends ... .I hate being alone. Nobody wants to be with me >>everone tells me how much fun I am.

He is warm, excitable and fun loving but I have seen him be emotionally volatile. I once saw him lose the head with a girl he used to go out with.

I am only just Begining to put 2and 2 together. I spoke with him yesterday and the girl he was saying was wonderful last week is suddenly a tramp and a slut.

This guy I am now realise doesn't like labels because he probably has BPD or some personality disorder.

I have only really got to know him again since I started rebuilding my social network.

I wish him well but I don't need a friend with a personality disorder.

Begining to feel like a BPD magnet.

Weird.

It's like Iyanla Van Zant says, "when you see crazy coming, cross the street.  But oh no, we invite crazy in, because we know crazy.  We used to buy crazy lunch in school.  So we invite crazy in, buy him an tuna fish sandwich, let crazy sleep on the couch and pretty soon, we have little crazylettes!" lol

r.

I found this statement to be true of my relationships and coworkers. What happened inside of me is the more aware I became of wanting to live with integrity to my values and emotions-the easier it became to recognize people that don't behave or speak with emotional integrity. There are times when people are stressed out or have a lot of things coming at them and they might respond in ways uncharacteristic of their usual and predictable behavior. And then there are the folks where their behavior consistently reflects this unpredictability or the things they say are confusing, or abusive.

From what you state above-your friend sounds like doesn't value women very much especially by labeling someone so harshly that he cared about. Kind of creepy especially with the degree he has and having studied human behavior-harsh.

I have limited contact now with friends and family that are not congruent with their behaviors or emotions. This transition was not easy but necessary as the need for boundaries and self protection became important to me in my mental and emotional health.

Take care,

C

I have limited contact now with friends and family that are not congruent with their behaviors or emotions. This transition was not easy but necessary as the need for boundaries and self protection became important to me in my mental and emotional health.



Great advice.

I  seeing people with  |>In my life and slowly putting distance between them and me.

I think it important to have people around you that enrich you life.

I have to admit that I'm sort of on the fence about this one. My ex was as mad as a box of frogs, there's no denying that, but I can't help but sort of wonder if all the drama and chaos was partially due to incompatibility. Basically my ex always told me that she has always only ever wanted to be loved by a man, so I thought, 'Isn't this great? A woman who finally values warmth and sensitivity in a man'. However, we could be intimate at times, but then she'd become very cold and distant with me, and I was confused. She'd start psychologically castrating me, saying I need to man up, and stop being so affectionate. Then, when I decided to start playing the game, I decided to become arrogant and aloof towards her, and it was then that she did a 180 turn around, and couldn't get enough of me.

Now, I mentioned in a thread, the other day, that since the split I've been studying tons of material on the female psyche, and what they really want in a man, and it says that women are really attracted to men's men, and not affectionate men because these are considered effeminate traits and therefore a turn off to a woman. The articles state that women are most attracted to men they feel protected by, and men who convey a strong degree of dominance, hence the attraction to the alpha male. Apparently we've been taught everything wrong - we should not be all nicey nice and sweet to our women, but more dominant. When they see this, they feel protected, and wont challenge you because they know you're stronger.

So I decide to start putting these principles to the test, and I started going into nightclubs conveying masculine body language, and a slight scowl on my face. Now, I didn't even have to make any form of eye contact with women, nor use any chat up lines; they all started flocking towards me, and wanting to get to know me, because they were magnetically drawn to my masculine body language (and I'm talking about really attractive women here, too). This was no one off thing either, because each time I did this, I kept getting the same results everytime, along with women's numbers.

So, could it be that we weren't showing enough dominance in our r/s with our ex's, and did they sense "weakness" in us, and create drama in a bid to get us angry so that we'd man up, become more dominant, and make them feel more protected?

I also started reading many things about how "nice guys" only attract borderlines; is this a coincidence, or could it be what I just said about the woman acting out to toughen their man up, so they feel more secure?

ETA: it sounds like I'm being contradictory considering what I've posted about BPD in the past, but I'm just offering a possibility on what causes the acting out and all the rest of it. Not saying this is definitely the case, but perhaps a potential contributory factor to say the least.

 

I think this incompatibility thing sounds like minimization.

When I would try to talk to my ex about how her demands were unreasonable, she would curl up in a ball, get on the floor and start rocking back and forth.

Most of the time, I became terrified that she wasn't okay.  At one point, I almost called 911.  I would try to hug her, try to talk to her, bring her water--anything to get her to feel better.

What wound up happening is that I would just swallow my own feelings and we couldn't really have an adult conversation.

Then there were the times she would threaten to have me 'abducted' or her family would put a 'hit' on me.

Then whole events that I *thought* I had experienced with her never happened.  History completely changed.  Whole events happened that I had no idea had ever happened.

She would tell me she didn't want me around but then tell me it would be the biggest mistake of her life to let me go.

Lately, in her blog she started talking about becoming a 'super villian.'

Who would be compatible with this?  If this is normal and not a psychological issue, what purpose and value does psychology have if it does not recognize this as a condition?

My point is that no one can be compatible with someone who idealizes you and then rapidly within a brief period of time hates you.

No one can be compatible with someone who can ask for serious commitments from someone, then act like those commitments meant nothing.

No one can be compatible with someone whose view of the past changes daily.

No one can be compatible with someone who can't take personal responsibility for any relationship problem.

If that's a compatibility problem, what constitutes a psychological problem?  If the only valid concerns within psychology are hard, chemical issues, why wouldn't neurologists just take over the field?  What role would psychology have, independent of the BPD label?

When you read articles like this-you might ensure they are academic and peer reviewed. What exactly is a man's man? I have heard men say this before about a boss of mine, I find it curious.


If you study the science of attraction and desire-usually it is based in body shapes and symmetry of the face.


Perhaps it is the choice of your words? I think there is truth that women want to feel secure in a r/s and there is a sense of protection with a man around. But the line gets crossed when a woman feels she cannot "challenge" a man because he is strong. Dominance is about control and no one wants to be controlled. Safe, we want to feel safe with our strong man. We want to know he will have our backs in our moments of indecision or weakness and he will try to understand and offer emotional support. We also like believing he would protect us if need be-but remember women are just as capable of providing protection. Most women I know would walk through fire for our loved ones.


.

Maybe it is because you are in a nightclub, which is kind of a limited setting. What if you tried that approach in a church, a hiking group, or a volunteer setting? If you are looking for girls (even attractive ones) that are interested in macho guys-maybe you have found the right venue in a night club.

I have three beautiful, intelligent and well adjusted daughters-two are married to nice guys. The reason these men won their hearts is simple-they are my daughters best friends and lovers. Both men have committed themselves to my daughters and have the capacity to negotiate, share, laugh, and assert their needs in relationships.

I guess what I am trying to tell you is this-never give up on being a nice man. Don't allow some jaded experience warp your sense of self or your understanding of women. Men don't come in packages with directions and a label. Neither do women. The joy of relationship is the discovery of each other-but you have to know yourself well enough to embark on that journey.

Read the book "The Shopgirl" by Steve Martin. He does a nice job of writing about the female and male experience. Its an easy read, too.

C

I've seen these observations/insights to the female before. 

I think the most important thing to bear in mind is a nightclub is a primal and sexual environment. Initial sexual attraction is hardly a marker for long-term relationship success. 

The "dominance" you're projecting to make initial contact, in a woman's mind is more than likely received as "confidence." I highly doubt, in the context of a long-term relationship, the average woman would place a priority on being dominated. However, a woman (myself included) would place importance on having a confident, self-fulfilled mate. 


This simply sounds like a round on the drama triangle, bouncing around from persecutor, victim and rescuer. Since you've placed this in terms of gender roles, how would you explain a BPD man that behaves the same way?

I think that our BPD partners are able to hone in on whatever underdeveloped elements of our personality that *we* feel guilty/ashamed/self-conscious about. Exploiting those feelings is part of the emotional blackmail tactics the pwBPD employs.

ex. My uBPDh knows I don't have a particularly strong mothering drive, and early on we agreed neither of us want children. While I don't feel like a failure as a woman, it still is a source of some confusion for me internally. When he's angry with me I am painted as selfish, uncaring and incapable of nurturing him or anything else.

That's it right there, BPD will declare, blame, and project based upon those underdeveloped or insecure facets of a person (i.e. mine twisted my rational, reserved, and calm nature in the face of her emotional swings as being distant, cold, unsupporting which made me question myself and lose confidence). A healthy person regardless of compatibility in a relationship does not exploit the weakness in a another person for emotional blackmail and priming enmeshment. A real partner understands your strengths and limitations (and viceversa), works with them and not against them.

A healthy woman. I think a lot of people on this forum, especially those past their twenties underestimate the amount of narcissism in young girls. It is astounding. You have girls everywhere taking pictures of themselves so they can put them on facebook. They accumulate hundreds of male friends just so the guys could like their pictures. And when a girl doesn't care, it takes a lot of spirit to resist the peer pressure.

Personality disorders may be caused by childhood trauma, but the symptoms are most definitely exacerbated by our culture. When these girls meet a guy who doesn't care about them, they will do anything to make him care. It is just foul.

I think what you are talking about, re: "alpha male" is just another word for the grandiose false self of narcissism. This isn't gender specific mind you, the entire American society values and looks up to it. These personality constructs are just ways of bargaining with feelings, especialy concerning low self esteem, voicelessness and powerlessness.

Narcissism is one of our most dangerous blocks to true intimacy, as it makes people exploitative and self centered for personal gain to prevent the bad feelings from arising- but it's a fear based reaction. It also attracts Borderlines simply because the Borderline has a deficient identity that attempts to fuse to the grandiose false self- also on a fear based reaction. Neither one supports true intimacy and the attachment itself is based on a house of falling cards.

You can put on a mask and attract people based upon that mask, but your greatest fear is that you will be unmasked and therefore unloved. Vulnerable narcissists (those nice guys and gals who feel better about themselves because they try to control and fix the rest of the World) get manipulated by borderlines who act out in order to control the attachment which activates the fears of the vulnerable narcissist. The two just go round and round and activate each others fears.

One of the best books that I've ever read on this subject is Search For The Real Self : Unmasking The Personality Disorders Of Our Age by James Masterson. www.amazon.com/Search-Real-Self-Unmasking-Personality/dp/0029202922 (http://www.amazon.com/Search-Real-Self-Unmasking-Personality/dp/0029202922) It is a telling read.

GS.

Thanks for the articulate post. You are right on in your observations and insights.

2010- thanks so much for YOUR insights!  |iiii

About this post:


Young girls and young adult females are lost in a culture of exploitation. Look at the media and portrayal of what women should or should not be. Often the message is  about being sexual and vying for a mans attention to find  a voice in the world or a position of power. There is a book titled "Reviving Ophelia" that explores what is happening to our young girls and the price they pay for this voicelessness.

What you observe is true-and a sign of our cultural values.

C

And this mentality is fed to them from the time they can walk and talk.  Look at the Disney cartoon features.  Everything is about meeting the prince, winning him and getting married.  

Ariel, the little mermaid is willing to give up her entire life "Undah da Sea", her father, her family her whole world... .*and* give up her voice (interesting) so that she can have her prince just based upon a glimpse of his handsome little self.  

And this is what we teach our daughters.   ?

Yes society does portray fantasy worlds, disney, soap operas, ect., ect., but for one to get stuck on this, and not mature emotionally with age, is fairly illogical at best. There is still plenty of reality to offset this, if one is perceptive. We all suffer from abandonment and intimacy issues, just some worse than others. Whether people deal with thier issues or not, is thier choice, not thier excuse

Mindful,

I remember when she told me she never loved me I felt that perhaps my perceptions of what we had were all wrong. Was this true or just said to hurt?

I guess I will never know. I also know that other than an exercise in growth and self development I have to let these moments go.

     I remember my wife of 12+ yrs saying " you never knew me". To some extent she was right. But only because she choose not to be totally truthful. I always knew something wasnt right, but felt I could see this through. But putting logic to crazy doesnt work. What you had was, what you had. If you were intimate, loved her, ect., ect., then thats what it was for you. Her, on the other hand, who knows. That comment sounds like she was just looking to hear you, tell her, how much you love her, to fill her bucket up. Or projection,or what was circling the drain in her mind during that second or whatever and it really doesnt matter. What comes out of thier mouths is really not worth hanging on to. I still have to recieve emails from uBPDw, as we have children. In some ways, reading her projections, lying, manipulation, threats and just, blah blah blah, puts things into perspective. Most of the time I can have a good idea, whats going on, but its not what it is face value. Never is. Then there are comments that I really have no clue, and dont dwell on it, why? Usually get a laugh or 2 from them.

     I remember my wife of 12+ yrs saying " you never knew me". To some extent she was right. But only because she choose not to be totally truthful.

I can relate to that. I knew she was trouble be something deep inside. I never knew it would come out and bite me.

What is ironic now is that I now know my uBPDw better now than she does herself.

Mindful,

"What is ironic now is that I now know my uBPDw better now than she does herself"

After learning of BPD. This is the same comment i made to uBPDw. lol Probably uncalled for. I was still pretty angry at the time. She had the deer in headlights look and repeated " You never knew me" numerous times, for the next few weeks or so. LOL. Thanks to this site and other literature, I could predict the majority of her actions. It was kind of creepy actually. Glad that stuff is over, as I now practice virtually N/C, limited to only emails. As time passes by, it amazes me how much she really lives in the now. She seems to have selective memory. Things she would percieve as acts/conversations against her could be remembered for 10 yrs. And be sure to use it to deflect, with current issues. Very frustrating. But issues concerning her (cheating, lying, manipulating) were quickly discarded, unresolved and left me in disbelief, and was supposed to not be a topic. More frustration.   

I think unless you are a woman you cannot understand the depth of the problem. My response was in response to the posting. Cultural images are very powerful-they portray an expectation without stating a word. Our girls are lost to this image unless they have parents that shield them from such images and are mindful of the stories portraying women needing rescuing. I agree life is about choice-the choices are difficult when your value is often percieved on how you look versus your intelligence. If this were not so-why the choice of Sarah Palin as a running mate? Could anyone with political savvy convince themselves she was the equal of Clinton? There was a reason for her selection and it wasn't solely basedon her abilities or her looks. Certainly though her looks were a part of the appeal

I have a very strong aversion to seeing gross generalizations about 20-something women. I'm not terribly far from that age, I remember it well. My experience has been most young women are nothing like the attention-starved monsters you describe. However, if one were looking for that type of woman, I'm sure they're easy enough to find.

I have seen it written here that throughout the whole relationship it is like they are running a blackbox flight recorder. Ever incidident good or bad (as perceived by them is stored).

It is used later to create circular arguments, to deflect from the current issue you might be discussing, it is use to gaslight you, to eventuaqlly paint you black, it is used to push you buttons so that no matter how calmly to try to make tour point the longer an argument goes on you eventually react to their rage. The only way that I could sope in these situations was to get some head space and walk out of the house.

Incredibly although I was effectively driven out of the house I would be perceived by her, I now understand from another source, that I had abandoned HER!

I understand it now. At the time because I had no knowledge or reference point I was tied up in knots, completely baffled and pushed to the edge of despair. 

 

I recently posted about this increasing concern of mine (I am a woman, and I have daughters) through culture and the media. And the post is about women understanding men.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=145645.0

I think it is very hard to escape what the media and popular culture are expressing a woman should 'be like' for an impressionable young woman.

Disney comes at a time in life when children are very young, and although I think this notion is held onto, I really believe that the most impressionable (and concerning) time is in teenage years, when girls have grown out of Disney. Disney is fantasy, and girls soon come to realise this. But what they are then confronted with are the hard lined sexuality. And it is women who are contributing to this themselves. Ie. Rihanna, Kesha, those who probably become more of an influence than parents at some point. And it is a drip drip effect... .it is everywhere. And it is scary.

Hello, MindfulJavaJoe!

  The therapist that I saw twice after leaving STBXH was likewise NOT familiar with the damage from a BPD relationship.  She advised me to re-read the 6 page letter he left in my car in several weeks, keeping an open mind to the fact that he had an abusive childhood, and consider working on mending the 20-year r/s.  Felt more like a marriage counselor than a T who wanted to help ME get/be/stay mentally healthy.

  After the second session, I discovered what anger feels like (never had allowed myself to feel it, as it seemed scary and inappropriate), went out and bought a punching bag, punched the heck out of it (still do when frustrated), and realized that aside from having spent 1/2 my life with a Borderline who diminished me to within an inch of my life, I was pretty darn healthy, emotionally!  Still feel that way.  Without all the crazy and the projecting and blaming, I'm a decent, contributing member of society.

  Bet you are, too.  Especially since you are more mindful of those people who do NOT enrich your life and are willing to limit contact with them and include people who do encourage you to be the best MJJ you can be!

  to ya, Brother!

JDoe

:)

I am glad you found a healthy way to vent you anger.

I was never allowed to be angry in my relationship. As a consequence it was very hard to set boundaries. This lead to me being walked all over at times.

Eventually I realised something had to change when pushed to my limit and the edge.

I is great to have my life and my old self back  :)

Thanks for the words of encouragement.

|iiii

The punching bag is pretty awesome, JDoe.  Good for you for finding a way to get it out. |iiii

Very well put. Though I am well past that age, I could not agree more!

geez i could have written both of those posts. selective memory is such an understatement but those were both very good descriptions of what its like and what comes with it.

Just to bring this topic back on track. Back to the diagnosis of BPD.

It seem to me that there is a school of thought that BPD does not exist. If you have lived it or if you are a therapist or psychiatric dealing with this then I suspect you cannot help but know it is real.

If your line of work as a mental health professional does not put you in contact with pwBPD then I would say your knowledge will not be great.

It is I understand somehting which is not tought about. Maybe it is too far down the syllabus or towasrd the end of all books on mental health.

Derpression, Bipolar and psychoses get all the attention. Personality disorders and BPD are was down the line.

I am not sure why the profile of BPD in so low. I would suspect that the average person is more likely to come into contact with  a pwBPD than Bipolar etc.

I think that "Borderline" as a label is not a helpful word. There seems to be a stigma attached to it.  :'(

As to whether it is real. It certainly fits with my experience. I can now predict my uBPDw patterns.

"Suprisingly there are now few suprises" when previously I would have thought "expect the unexpected".

Considering the havoc that pwBPD have the potential to create in the lives of others I am amazed that this diagnosis does not have a much higher profile. 

MJJ

   

It is used later to create circular arguments, to deflect from the current issue you might be discussing, it is use to gaslight you, to eventuaqlly paint you black, it is used to push you buttons so that no matter how calmly to try to make tour point the longer an argument goes on you eventually react to their rage. The only way that I could sope in these situations was to get some head space and walk out of the house.

That was my experience entirely, the cupboards would start banging when she would clean on weekends, and I knew somehow the organization and cleaning were something to do with me, and I would run out and go have breakfast and return to calm person 90 minutes later. I would also take my dogs to the park across the street, and sit for 30 minutes or so, I think I was being gas lighted at the time, but I don't remember details just got out of dodge, bc I knew I was always going to be the blame of whatever slight was on her mind... .

Where's my keys? Where is the driver's license form, did you take my red shirt, why aren't the dishes done, actually my neighbor says other neighbors used to comment on the F... .k you's they heard, and I said it was probably me bc there was never any communication or resolution and finally I would react  "F... .K You and leave the house, come back, and probably apologized for swearing, never getting any sort of apology or acknowledgement of the craziness of her words or behavior... .

Mindful,

My wife got me to leave house for few days, to supposedly work our issues out. She then proceeded to start new r/s. Then started poison with kids saying I abandoned the family. I quickly proved this wrong, read Divorce Poison and somewhat righted the ship. Unbelievable, that she could steer kids this way, it was like Houdini or something. But in her mind, I know she really feels this way. As the first time she cheated on me(that I can confirm) I had conversation with her, before I went to jail for the night. These were exact words. " I wanted you to come find me". Huh, dont cheaters usually not want to be found out? This later was lost in chaos, but has surfaced in my thoughts, as I have learned about BPD. As I watched the second affair play out (DEJAVUE), and I navigated through the fog. My subconcious told me to run like hell, here is your chance.

    On the subject of how many BPDers are out there. Im only 6-7 months removed, meeting new people now. I know Im very gaurded, and dont even fathom a serios r/s. But there are a ton of single women out there, with at least, very strong traits of BPD, if they are not. Further more. With the only effective way of treating BPD, being an Eastern type of medicine. (naturally, through therapy) Until they develope a pill, that the great perscription machine can jump on, it will fly under the radar.