BPDFamily.com

Children, Parents, or Relatives with BPD => Son, Daughter or Son/Daughter In-law with BPD => Topic started by: Reality on February 01, 2012, 09:30:59 AM



Title: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: Reality on February 01, 2012, 09:30:59 AM
Here goes Reality off on another tangent!

First, Jung and now Aspergers.

Aspergers can present all the way from very mild to severely debilitating.  Lack of empathy is one of the key characteristics and when children are diagnosed early enough in school, they receive extensive, individualized help with social skills, often given direct statements to clarify social situations and help with their own behavior  in terms of understanding what is appropriate.  With help, they learn what is appropriate and just as importantly, those around them learn to be non-judgmental, kind and helpful.  Aspergers lies on the Autism spectrum.

I will never forget the day my BPDs23 came home from school in Grade Five and proudly announced that he was the only one, who understood the behaviors of a severely autistic boy in the school.

I have always suspected that my BPDs23 was a bit Asperger-ish.  And I do mean a bit.  Not enough to diagnose, but enough to make him seem somehow just a little different.

Because my children were well-loved and had all of the benefits of good nutrition, sports and nice friends, life went along quite smoothly.

I freaked when my BPDs23 started using drugs and somehow I think my anxiety and my reactiveness fed the BPD ready genetic predisposition.  He was cutting and not going to school, so I enrolled him in another school.  The first school ended up being far more benign than the

second.  Then drugs... .down it all went... .

Why do I care about this Aspergers piece?  I have a strong sense that my BPDs23 could have been diagnosed way earlier than at age 23!   I know this is going to sound radical, but I think these children could be diagnosed or at least noted for being at risk at a very early age.  My friends all know I had a sense of concern when my BPDs23 was 6 or so.  He was a beautiful-looking boy and very funny, but he just was... .well... .a little bit different. 

And now, a little bit different is full-blown, life-threatening BPD. 

In wonder if any of you have noticed anything similar.

reality



Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: heronbird on February 01, 2012, 09:59:06 AM
Oh, yes difinitly. Noticed similar things. And I felt for you when you said what a beautiful funny boy he was, so sad. Same as our D. Well she still is funny, caring and very special. I guess same for most people out there with BPD.

Thing is, I have struggled with some of that stuff you were saying about with aspergus. But more so adhd, I believe my DD should of been taken more seriously at age 10 when she showed strange signs at school. EARLY intervention is key I think.

I looked into adhd in girls and it is so different to the boys adhd, girls very often get through school unnoticed. I do find this so frustrating, bit late now to be honest, she is 17, failed at school and didnt or couldnt carry on any education.

Anyhow, weve had a hell of a time with it from age 12 to about 6 months ago. things getting tiny bit better for now, settled a bit.


But remember we all have personality traits of all the different disorders, I self diagnosed as autistic haha


Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: trytrytry on February 01, 2012, 01:00:29 PM
About early diagnosis.  When my upddd26 was 5 years old, she would say she wanted to die.  I took her to a therapist, and he said she had issues about her father.  She was always a little different and had difficulties w/ peers.  There was no help offered or suggested.  Although she was different as a child, she did OK in life and was not hard to live with.  That, of course changed as adolescence hit.  Since then, she barely graduated HS, managed to get a 2 yr degree (in 5 yrs), has had four hospitalizations, wrecked cars, spent money on herself like it grew on trees, now using drugs and alcohol.  Travels through men and jobs like a knife through butter.  She can also be sweet as pie.  I wonder if she'd been diagnosed earlier, if some sort of DBT for children could have been offered, to give her social skills/awareness/ etc- giving her a fighting chance at a happy and productive life?  Maybe for future generations of BPD's?

At any rate, this site has been a life saver for me.  Words can't express my gratitude.  Best wishes for us all.


Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: Feathers on February 01, 2012, 03:30:11 PM
It would be so interesting to map our kids' traits and see where they overlap and where they don't. I can't say I've ever seen any Aspergers or autism-like symptoms in my bBPDD. On the contrary, she was highly social as a child and friends would swarm around her like bees to a honeypot. She was articulate and expressive and also a very compassionate child who liked to buy Christmas gifts for the giving tree at the mall. She liked to bring home all kinds of strays, animals and people, and a couple of times even asked us to adopt a friend who was in an unhappy home. However, as a teenager I noticed her becoming more demanding of her friends and boyfriends, and quite self-absorbed. Nowadays she could care less about the feelings of her family, and she regularly dismisses her friends when they have outlived their usefulness. Jekyll and Hyde. She always says that no-one likes her. She cuts herself. She threatens suicide, and sometimes tries.  She was recently diagnosed with ADD, which astonishes me, since I never saw any sign of that in her growing up.

I understand why anyone involved with a pwBPD is desperate to find an explanation, but I sometimes think there is no one size fits all answer. The diagnosis seems to cover quite a range of behavior.


Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: Thursday on February 01, 2012, 04:01:22 PM
reality,

I'm glad you brought this up. I came into BPDSDs life when she was a younger teen... .so really don't have much to go on as for her earlier childhood history. There was something I found when sorting out paperwork when we moved though... .

but first I want to say, the first time I met her face to face I thought she looked and acted very strange, dressed oddly and she seemed out of synch with other teenagers I knew.

We went out to dinner and she ordered chocolate cake. She got it all over her hands, face and clothes. She had no awareness of herself or the state of the cake. She was wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too old to not have better eating skills.

I've known a few people with aspergers in my life, but all boys and they always had some quirky interests that made them seem, well, interesting, and they were so different than what I saw with my SD so I never really even thought about this strangeness with her being aspergers. The cake thing happened when she was 13, a few days away from being 14 and she has improved with much of this through the years with some well placed tweeking and comments from me. She would make a face about my comments but I couldn't just not say anything as I knew some of the things she was doing would be socially very risky. (She was burping loudly, even farting, in front of others) ;p .

She still lacks empathy and her way of thinking is odd and disordered. I have fewer clues these days as to how she does socially. I do know that she prefers much younger people as her pals. Right now she has a 15 year old boy calling her his best friend (facebook). I find that very strange for a 20 year old girl.

She has never had a boyfriend. The closest she got to a bf was an older boy when she was 17 (he was 21 or 22) who used her sexually. She was fixated on him for a very long time, after he treated her poorly and was involved with someone else.

She watches cartoons on TV. She is not as open about this as she used to be... .but whenever she spends the night here, the tv is always tuned to either the Cartoon Network or Nickelodeon.

And there is also a tough as nails persona, like a charicature of a bad girl. Ciggy hanging low on the lip, lotsa cleavage, snearing and eye rolling, cursing, punching things. Thankfully, now that she is sober and trying to have better behavior we don't see this person very much.

When she was still in high school and we went to parents night, half of her teachers thought she was sweet, stupid and silly. The other half she had threatened, cursed out, disrespected, slept through their classes and been sent to the office as a result of her behavior.

Does any of this sound like aspergers, maybe a more girly version? This may sound strange but she has no idea of how to be "cool" with her peers. She has gotten better with her clothing choices but she has such "bad taste" and doesn't seem to really take much interest in her appearance. She talks too loudly about movies that seem too juvenile for someone her age.

And now back to that clue I found about her early childhood. There was some early intervention with a Pdoc when she was around 7 or 8. Her Dad doesn't really remember why (or which of two or three different issues it was that prompted her seeing the Pdoc) but the Dr. administered a test for various things and she scored lowest on understanding social situations. It showed no sensitivity, no awareness of facial clues and she misinterpreted non-verbal communications across the board. As far as her Dad remembers, nothing was done about it.

Excerpt
And now, a little bit different is full-blown, life-threatening BPD.  



Our situation has gotten better because she isn't doing drugs. It got bad with her very, very quickly and after a first failed rehab she has accepted AA and sobriety wholeheartedly, really without hitting any sort of a bottom. She had her reasons but it's neither here nor there. I understand your statement above from having been in that spot, worrying when she was drugged and sleeping in that I was doing the wrong thing not barging into her room to see if she was still alive.

I too wish there had been some earlier intervention... .so much of her behaviors were set and on the downward spiral by the time she was a teen.

At any rate, this is an interesting discussion. Thanks for starting the thread.

Thursday


Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: Reality on February 01, 2012, 04:37:23 PM
heronbird

I love your sense of humor and your compassion.  You said it so well by stating that EARLY intervention is key.  (Oops!  I don't know how to do quotes, so I can't do one of those fancy highlighted quotes.  Sorry.) I am glad your recent months are going better for you and I hope your beautiful BPDd is finding her way amongst the troubles.  She sounds exquisitely sensitive, as is my BPDs23.

trytrytry

Yes, my BPDs23 was quite easy until his teens as well.  Yet, now I realize that he was collecting sadness and unexpressed hurt and confusion underneath the fun and the antics, unbeknownst to the family.  In some ways, he is still too sweet for the world, but full of self-destruction.

feathers

The overlaps are interesting.  My BPDs23 was extremely articulate as well and I would say oddly philosophical even as a very young child.  He was pondering how on earth a person could know God was there when he was 5.  One evening, he calmly inverted a glass in the water and then lifted it up slightly so the bubbles escaped, thereby indicating the explanation.  You can't see the air, but you can see it's interaction with water.  I was astounded.  I bet many of you have similar stories of phenomenal insight.

Thanking you all from my heart for your sharing.  It breaks the brutal isolation.  What a gift this message board has been!  I am so thankful, beyond words.


Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: heronbird on February 01, 2012, 04:57:41 PM
Wouldnt DBT be good for all, I mean its like life coping skills.

Actually, my BPDD17 started having difficulties from age 11 ish, as I said before Early Intervention is more helpful, rather than leaving things until it gets to crisis and they are on deaths door.

Why didnt they help us, I mean her teacher was so worried about her he told me he thought she was suffering with depresssion. At times they found her wondering round the school aimlesly and she couldnt concentrate in class. All alarm bells. This is when a short DBT type programe would of been ideal yet all they used to do was send her to medical room and she could do some drawing or reading.

Even when things got worse, serious self harm, no one really cared, no help. We felt so invalidated, so alone.



Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: Vivgood on February 01, 2012, 04:58:06 PM
There has been ongoing interest in the relationship (if any) between BPD and Aspergers. My DD is nowhere near Aspie; I'm an Aspie; DD at one point was dx'd ADD. I agree that all 3 share similar profiles, particularly in girls- symptoms (of all 3) in girls tend to look emotional/social/distracted rather than the more concrete physical symptomology in boys (boys tend to be the rockers, the hyper, the violent). One thing is... .all of these dxs interact with personality, so that an introvert with any of the 3 will "look" different thatn an extraverted version of the same. That can make it confusing. Also, they can be comorbid, which makes it even crazier (I was Aspie and BPD, DD may have both BPD triats and low-level ADD). BPDs have plenty of empathy (and sometimes uncomfortably too mucjh) but it gets subsumed in their own misery. Aspies, eh, empathy is a struggle.  So, if a BPD is really in the weeds, it may look like Aspie-type lack of empathy... .but isn't. And ADD chaos can look like BPD chaos... .but has a totally different origin.

This is totally weird: I just was in a meeting with a guy who talked about a drug currently in trial for BPD. His view of BPD is that it is a type of hyper-trigger PTSD. That is, people with the brain chemistry/malformation for BPD are constantly experiencing PTSD in response to normal things in life, and if we can shut down or derail that mechanism, the PTSD type responses can be regulated. I will watching that trial with interest!


vivgood


Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: tiredmommy2 on February 01, 2012, 05:28:13 PM
Excerpt
This is totally weird: I just was in a meeting with a guy who talked about a drug currently in trial for BPD. His view of BPD is that it is a type of hyper-trigger PTSD. That is, people with the brain chemistry/malformation for BPD are constantly experiencing PTSD in response to normal things in life, and if we can shut down or derail that mechanism, the PTSD type responses can be regulated. I will watching that trial with interest!

This seems like it would make sense. As someone with PTSD and a BPD daughter, I can't wait to see the results of that trial!

Excerpt
There has been ongoing interest in the relationship (if any) between BPD and Aspergers. My DD is nowhere near Aspie; I'm an Aspie; DD at one point was dx'd ADD. I agree that all 3 share similar profiles, particularly in girls- symptoms (of all 3) in girls tend to look emotional/social/distracted rather than the more concrete physical symptomology in boys (boys tend to be the rockers, the hyper, the violent). One thing is... .all of these dxs interact with personality, so that an introvert with any of the 3 will "look" different thatn an extraverted version of the same. That can make it confusing. Also, they can be comorbid, which makes it even crazier (I was Aspie and BPD, DD may have both BPD triats and low-level ADD). BPDs have plenty of empathy (and sometimes uncomfortably too mucjh) but it gets subsumed in their own misery. Aspies, eh, empathy is a struggle.  So, if a BPD is really in the weeds, it may look like Aspie-type lack of empathy... .but isn't. And ADD chaos can look like BPD chaos... .but has a totally different origin.

How confusing!  No wonder getting the correct diagnosis is so hard!


Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: Thursday on February 01, 2012, 06:03:19 PM
vivgood,

Very interesting about the ptsd study and your friend's hypothesis about it's relationship to BPD. My SD went through a legit trauma, the long illness and death of her Mom. 7-12. Death can trigger ptsd in many folks. I belong to a widow/widower bulletin board and I'd say that about 5% of the members who regularly post feel they have some sort of ptsd. Perhaps the number is higher.

If a drug can be developed to help sufferers, WOW, what a benefit to veterans, crime victims, and in my SD's case it would have helped for sure.

thanks for sharing.

Thursday



Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: Reality on February 01, 2012, 06:07:34 PM
Vivgood

Thank you for the insight into the interaction of innate personality differences with dxs.  Extraversion and introversion can make the same diagnosis look like a different animal, for sure.

Yes, BPDs do have empathy, but it is often lost in their inability to read social cues, at least in my BPD's case.  So maybe it is in their social misreads that I was seeing Aspergerish and BPDish overlapping. 

KEY QUESTION IN MY MIND-what is with this BPD SWEETNESS?  My BPDs23 is truly one of the gentlest and sweet souls I know.  The loss of his first love, the lady whose name is etched in his skin, destroyed him, as he candidly admits.  How many of you would say that your BPD has a very sweet side? It seems to me from my reading here that the answer would be an overwhelming yes.

Back to Vivgoods' meeting and the thinking that people with BPD are constantly experiencing PTSD in response to normal things in life.  Don't we already know that, as BPDs are described as being exquisitely sensitive, which leads to their extreme emotional dysregulation?  Isn't BPD lability a result of a highly sensitive temperament in an invalidating environment rather than in a so-called normal kind of situation?  I  think labeling the highly sensitive reaction of our BPDs as PTSD is pathologizing normal behavior in the highly sensitive temperament spectrum.  I would go so far as to say that our so-called BPDs were the highly-esteemed poets, advisors,  Cassandras, etc. of former times.  No-one used to ask the bards and poets to finish their dinners and university courses nicely.  They welcomed their sensitivity, intuition and strangeness.  Watching the videos of Tami Green, a recovered BPD, I notice that she still has that exquisitely sensitive temperament despite her recovery.  I think the pathologizing of the highly sensitive  temperament is one of the root causes of our modern construct of BPD.


Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: argyle on February 01, 2012, 07:00:14 PM
(1) I once found a paper indicating that Asperger's was a risk factor for BPD. It kind of makes sense - as Aspies have fewer protective tools.  (Google Penelope Trunk) I also suspect that some Aspie families can be extraordinarily violent. (lack of social oil)

(2) My strongly BPDw also shows some Aspie traits.  (Sensory overload... .inability to understand very basic social situations... .seems to have real trouble with theory of mind)

Dunno.  I'd argue that being sensitive is fine.  However, adopting self-reinforcing positive feedback dysfunctional coping mechanisms is BPD.  (Cutting, distorted reality, push-pull) Basically, if you have trouble with drama and your coping mechanism creates drama... .it is a problem.

--Argyle



Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: tiredmommy2 on February 02, 2012, 07:22:17 AM
Excerpt
(1) I once found a paper indicating that Asperger's was a risk factor for BPD. It kind of makes sense - as Aspies have fewer protective tools.  (Google Penelope Trunk) I also suspect that some Aspie families can be extraordinarily violent. (lack of social oil)

(2) My strongly BPDw also shows some Aspie traits.  (Sensory overload... .inability to understand very basic social situations... .seems to have real trouble with theory of mind)

I have been wondering about this for quite some time now.  My youngest child is an Aspie, and I have been almost paranoid that she will grow up to have BPD. She is extremely sensitive to everything, particularly perceived criticism, so if I'm not careful about the tone of my voice when saying something like, "Please hang your coat up", she can actually take that as some sort of personal attack. I am soft spoken in general, and really careful with her, but sometimes she still feels like I'm being harsh. There are times where she's upset with me for saying something, and I don't even know what I could have possibly said. Other than that, she sees everything in black and white, and still has difficulty with non-verbal cues.  This is all an improvement, and what we're dealing with after 5 years of speech therapy.

Her being ultra-sensitive is what really scares me.  I've learned a lot and am as validating as they come, but what about other people who will say whatever? If she continues to be this sensitive, she's going to feel traumatized by very normal life events over and over again, which I believe will put her at risk for developing BPD.  I'm trying to teach her ways to self-soothe now, so hopefully that helps, but if this child ends up becoming a borderline, I'm going to be 100% convinced that this is genetic.



Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: argyle on February 02, 2012, 08:52:45 AM
In my area, for teens, there was a really good DBT group.  Then it closed... .sigh. Being proactive about your worries makes a lot of sense to me.

--Argyle


Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: heronbird on February 02, 2012, 09:04:22 AM
Vivgood very interesting. I had heard PTSD is supposed to be similar to BPD. However, with BPD, you cant have flashbacks if you have had nothing traumatic in your life like a lot of pwBPD.

I looked into ptsd at the beginning of dd dignosis to see if it applied, to be honnest, she was more like girls ADD   


Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: qcarolr on February 02, 2012, 09:41:25 AM
This is an interesting topic and so complex. I went to a brief talk about personality typing. One of the presenters commented that on the extroversion/introvesion piece there is a societal impact. In US (and maybe other more 'western philosophy' cultures) about 75% of the population is extrovert and the expectations for 'normal' are based on that majority. In Japan it is the other way around - 75% introvert.

So my question comes back to what is genetic, inate temperament and what is cultural? Don't have any answers - just questions.

qcr


Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: Reality on February 02, 2012, 09:56:49 AM
The Highly Sensitive Person by Elaine Aron illuminated for me the non-pathological aspect of high sensitivity.  It was truly a life-changing book for me.

I truly love and honor high-sensitivity.  I have several close friends, who are beyond highly sensitive.  They are brilliantly insightful, very artistic and also physically quite beautiful people.  And their lives are fascinating.  I guess they would look dramatic to other people, but I could care less.  I figure everyone is made in the image, so let's enjoy the differences. 

On the other hand... .speaking of dialectical, being with a highly sensitive can be stressful, I guess, if you would rather have peace and quiet.

I also think this has something to do with learning style.  My BPDs23 is an abstract random thinker, instead of logical sequential, which totally ties into the seeming lack of problem-solving skills.  I think abstract random links to the Asperger construct, as I recall,  the thinking style there is pictures first.  In a way that links to hypnagogic hallucinations, which inspired some of our greatest thinkers and scientists, like Einstein, Edison, among others to discover models and explanations for the universe. 

Musings... .


Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: Reality on February 02, 2012, 10:12:48 AM
qcaroir

Personality Disorders are constructs outlining behaviors not perceived as being "normal" by the society, in which one lives.  I think that is the very common understanding. 

That is why bpdfamily is such a comfort for me.   We are all validating each other, normalizing our experiences, telling each other we know the pain, the agony, and the joys.

Very complex, indeed.


Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: qcarolr on February 02, 2012, 10:19:35 AM
Reality - I just finished reading 'The Highly Sensitve Child' to better relate to my gd6. My T suggested this after meeting her. And then this chance to discuss the Myers-Briggs personality rating stuff, and then checking out some of the resources from the back of the book on parenting sensitive kids. Has given me a whole new dimension in thinking about so many people in my life. It gives me pause to ponder the box my own way of thinking/feeling/being puts me into sometimes. And it is such a complex dynamic with so much variation on an individual level.

And it also helps me to find value in those that are not just like me. That maybe I tend to 'pathologize' others. Fits in with my current disengagement from my BPD DD. Letting her be whoever she is with less judgement - and this is finally starting to come from a more sincere place inside me.

I had no concept of validation before I came here to bpdfamily.com, and it has been a struggle to first find ways to validate myself so I could stop looking to others in my family to do that for me - most especially my DD. And the amazing part is that as I have made progress in the self-care - with less guilty feelings of selfishness about it - she is also more validating toward me.  And things are going pretty smoothly in our house right now. Ask me again when the next down cycle hits  

qcr *)


Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: parent of bpd daughter on February 02, 2012, 09:31:21 PM
Thanks for this thread Reality - just like your Jungian thread - this one is very thought provoking and helpful.

I am not a trained mental health professional - but given all the nutz in my family tree - I could play one on t.v. :-)

My humble opinion is that there INDEED is a co-existence, co-morbidity of some type beween BPD and Autism spectrum disorders like Asperger's.

I do not think it is the same as Highly Sensitive Personalities - I am an HSP, my youngest is an HSP - but we don't attempt suicide, cut, or push strollers with toddlers into moving traffic. HSP is not BPD or autism related in my opinion.

I hope more research is done about the autistic traits of BPD sufferers. My BPDD was "odd" from birth.

The only time we can both agree on (since talking to her about anything other than the weather is a challenge) is an incident when she was about 4.

She stepped on a needle while barefoot - and somehow just could not cry out as most 4 yr olds would - instead she just sat there at the top of the stairs and waited until someone (me) walked by and noticed this needle stuck in her foot. This is an atypical reaction for a 4 yr old - her and I both agree.

Otherwise, she rarely showed emotion as a child - it worried me - i took her to Dr's - they told me I was over-reacting and over anxious and suggested I take valium :-)

I was right - something was wrong with her then and still is today. It is not HSP - it is something more insidious that caused her to push her 2 yr old sister's stroller into moving traffic many years ago. I was too shocked to admit it was NOT an accident.

She also physically attacked me several times when I was pregnant with her sister - my pregnancy set her on edge - maybe fear of abandonment.

She would stay out all night as a teen and when she finally came home acted as if I was crazy for calling hospitals, friends, police - this is not HSP.

God bless us all for the strength and courage we must have to face each new day with these children in our lives.


Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: heronbird on February 03, 2012, 02:25:51 AM
Gosh, very interesting, Parent of BPD d... .You knew didnt you, and NO one listened to you. That is so frustrating, yet you could of caught it earlier and helped maybe.

I feel the same was trying to get help earlier they made me feel like I was the crazy over protective one, yet with four children, who has time to keep bothering these proffesionals.

The more I read about all this stuff, the more I see my son in this, he had terrible symptoms all his life, he never cried with pain, I remember he had his hand trapped at playgroup once, he said nothing, just sat there. He has never had any need to see a P really and he is working etc.

So how did he escape all the diagnosis things etc.

I did want to take him to a P for a while because he was so badly agressive, but he left home at 16 to join the marines, so things got a bit better.

Hes always been the odd one out in the family, yet its our D who has BPD


Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: Reality on February 03, 2012, 02:48:51 AM
parent of BPD daughter

I think the Doors nailed it in their song, People are Strange, for sure.

I have been reading Joel Paris, a professor at McGill University and an expert on BPD and he states that the prognosis for BPD is quite good.  Apparently, 75% Of peuple with BPD recover by their 30s and early 40s'and 90% by their 50s.  So this is a young people's disorder!$&%#?

It looks like a perfect storm kind of thing.  A parent who is maybe an HSP or maybe a recovered BPD or maybe with traits of Aspergers.  Add to that one child with HSP or perhaps with Aspergers.  Mix together in a society that STIGMATIZES  oddness and mental health issues BIG TIME (i keep reading in different posts that many of you knew something was amiss when your child was quite young, but your concerns were dismissed by the education professionals as well as medical people.  I was told I had an anxiety problem!  Right?).  Add to this already brewing storm the delightful$^%#}£ availability of all sorts of drugs to very young people and a culture that weirdly saturates young people with the sickest values in movies, songs and videos  (how does that fit with the stigma against oddness as the media celebrates violence and any perversion going?).  Mix well.  Many BPD experts call it a modern disorder, that didn't exist before the 1930s. 

I look at the hippies of the 60s.  Very like my BPDs23, but drugs weren't available until most of them were in their late teens.  Their brains and bodies were very healthy.  And there was radical acceptance of weirdness! 

Anyways, I do have hope.   We are dealing with a very under-researched disorder, which is highly stigmatized.  I figure if we all are pulling together, there will be many breakthroughs. 

When I read qcaroir's posts and her brilliant insights and receptivity to change, I am encouraged.


Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: Reality on February 03, 2012, 03:09:53 AM
heronbird

I often think plain good luck and also bad luck play into this deal.  Your son found what he needed in the marines, I am thinking, exercise and tons of structure and probably great nutrition.  Good daily routines go a long way to create stability and a sense of purpose.  One could also say that he made some good choices and made his luck. 

Our BPD children have a rather nasty set-up for young souls and I am always impressed by their resilience in the face of overwhelming odds.  I think it is a testament to the human spirit that they keep going despite the unbearable pain and lack of help. 

I think we are a testament to the human spirit.  If someone had told me 30 years ago that I would be able to stand the embarrassment and stigma associated with my BPDs23's behavior and appearance, I would not have believed it, as I am very shy and an introvert.

It would be funny, if it weren't so unbearable.



Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: Stepmom1962 on February 03, 2012, 08:03:37 AM
I read this thread with much interest.  Like Thursday, my uDSD, 20, exhibits many of the same traits she describes for her SD.  She was  evaluated for Aspergers a few years ago (before my time), but was not diagnosed with it.  It is interesting, though, that someone saw the inappropriateness of her behavior and tried to label it.  After a disasterous counseling session with SD, my husband and his ex (more of an ambush from ex) in October, I wrote a letter to the therapist documenting my concerns with SD's behavior and suggesting that she evaluate for BPD.  The report we received (from ex) last week was dated in November.  Although the MMPI was done, there are no specific results from it, just says the test indicated that "SD feels unhappy and is dissatisfied with her current life circumstances.  She is also prone to feelings of self doubt and insecurity. While she evinced features of depression, her symptoms are somewhat atypical and we are therefore diagnosing her with Depressive Disorder, Not Otherwise Specified."

The report said that SD is having difficulty with "the new family constellation" that is her father and stepmother (me) and recommended family counseling.  I have been trying to get counseling for SD for nearly 4 years and have met much resistance from SD, ex and my husband.  SD is untruthful about almost everything (or her perception of the truth is severly skewed), so I am reluctant to try to participate in family counseling unless I am allowed some time with the counselor alone to express my concerns.  I do struggle with SD because of the lies, immaturity and inappropriate behavior that my husband rarely notices or corrects.  I am the "bad guy" in all of this because I confront the behavior and don't pretend everything is fine, so I'm sure SD does have difficulty with me.  I have high expectations for all our children, including my own Down syndrome daughter, so I don't understand my husband and his ex expecting practically nothing from either of their daughters.  My SD has a part time job at the mall, and now that Christmas is over, is barely working.  She is taking one class at CC (that she has failed twice before), but most of her time is spent on FB and texting (over 10,000 texts last month, including throughout the night).  We pay for her phone, so I can see the bill.  IMO, No one is pushing her to take more classes, get a job with more hours, etc., so I just don't see her behavior changing much.   

All I see "family" counseling doing at this point is to drive a wedge between my husband and me, which is probably SD's intent. So, for now, I am not going.  SD has so many issues that she needs to work on (most peers and adults have difficulty being around her), that I think she should show some committment to counseling and changing her inappropriate behaviors.  If this happens, then perhaps things will be better between us. If it doesn't, then all the family counseling in the world is not going to "fix" her.


Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: tiredmommy2 on February 03, 2012, 09:17:47 AM
Excerpt
My humble opinion is that there INDEED is a co-existence, co-morbidity of some type beween BPD and Autism spectrum disorders like Asperger's.

I'm really wondering if this might be the case. One of my daughters has BPD and the other is an Aspie.  They both have problems socially, both are highly sensitive, and both see things in black and white. The difference is that my Aspie daughter learns from her mistakes, is not manipulative, and doesn't self-harm or threaten suicide, whereas BPDd does all of the above and then some.  BPDd never learned from her mistakes, and never really wanted to listen. I guess she was pretty much ODD from the very beginning, and just got progressively worse over the years. My Aspie daughter is an absolute pleasure to care for - the light of my life.

I would consider myself a HSP - I have endured a lot of trauma, and have a diagnosis of PTSD, but don't have problems with relationships, mood swings, abandonment issues, or anything else like that.


Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: Reality on February 03, 2012, 10:03:27 AM
tiredmommy2

I am assuming that your child with Aspergers has an IEP and all of the support from the educational professionals that are mandated.  Aspergers is well-known in the field of education and medicine and the support for a child with the diagnosis therefore is usually excellent.  Would you say that is the case? 

In my first post on this thread, that is the point I was trying to make.  Our children with underlying  biological factors for BPD fall under the radar of educational and medical professionals.  There are so many stories here indicating parents knew something was amiss at a much earlier age than the full-blown symptoms occurred.  If our children could have been flagged with risk factors for BPD before they hit puberty, educational accommodations and support as well as a team of mental health workers could have been put in place, so that when the BPD starts brewing, the family isn't left carrying the whole impossible burden.  Children with physical disabilities are given huge support, with EAs and many professionals tracking their needs.  That is what our children deserved and didn't get.  And then we were judged for being inadequate parents!  We are lucky we are still breathing.

Early Indications for BPD

1. A family history of Aspergers or Autism

2. Characteristics of an HSP (maybe that sweet quality?)

3. Odd behavior at an early age, maybe a zaniness or could be a withdrawn, non-reactive,   outsider stance

4. Not achieving at potential in Elementary School

5. Sleep issues at an early age, with difficulty settling

Immediate Interventiom for Team of Support, including Mental Health Workers and Special Education teachers

1. Drug Use

2. Poor Attendance at school, a month of poor attendance should raise the red flag

3. Anger Management issues

4. Sleep Issues, creating a crazy daily pattern

Just my ideas.



Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: Reality on February 03, 2012, 10:14:09 AM
Addendum to Early Indications for BPD

6. Usually very good-looking children ( I think that is why they are at risk.  They don't look as if they could ever have a problem in the world.  How could such a beautiful child be experiencing feelings of abandonment, nobody liking them when he/she is obviously a star?  Think Princess Di)

7. Brilliant sense of humor



Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: tiredmommy2 on February 03, 2012, 11:05:44 AM
My child with Aspergers does have an IEP and we have gotten excellent support ever since she was diagnosed.  She had wonderful therapists along with teachers who specialized in Austism to teach what didn't come naturally to her. They also worked closely with me so I learned how to better support her from a very young age.  I can't tell you how grateful I am for all of the support of these wonderful people who have made all of the difference in her life and mine. 

I agree with you that perhaps if some sort of support was in place from an earlier age for my BPDd, who displayed almost all of the early indications of BPD, perhaps the outcome would have been better.


Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: qcarolr on February 03, 2012, 03:06:23 PM
I really struggle with the 'what ifs' of raising my DD25. I was very assertive, maybe even agressive, in getting accomadations for her. And I also fell into the early medications influence - I just didn't know how to handle this child. I actually have fond memories of those times when she was sick and she would be more settled -- an allow me to be there for her.

Side Note: sounds like I had lots of unmet needs for myself that I was looking to my child to fulfill. I really needed some valdiation for ME, and did not take it in somehow. See this also in my resistance to comments her like quote from Reality "When I read qcaroir's posts and her brilliant insights and receptivity to change, I am encouraged."  I am doing better in my r/s everywhere because I have accepted that it is OK to take care of myself.

DD had ADHD dx at age4, hospitaization with addition of bipolar at age6, IEP started at age 6 - yet she always resisted all the supports, help, programs, therapies, and taking the meds. from the very beginning. At age 2 when she started saying "YOu are not the boss of me and cannot tell me what to do" she really believed this. THis is her mantra in life.

And now, at age 25, as I step back and let her do what she will, things seem to be in a more 'stable' place. At least for now.

Gotta go run errands. Hope to be back later to read more of this thread.

qcr *)


Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: tiredmommy2 on February 03, 2012, 03:32:46 PM
Good point, qcarolr.  Who is to say that the child would accept the help?

I kind of knew that something was "off" with my BPDd, and did take her to doctors and psychiatrists when she was fairly young (5 or 6 maybe).  All they could come up with was ADHD, so I went with that.  As she became older, and increasingly difficult, she got the ODD label, and there was some support there; not specifically for BPD, and certainly not as much as was in place for my Aspie daughter, but it was there.  BPDd would not really cooperate. She initially went through the motions of accepting the help, but her intent was to do whatever she wanted to do anyway - she outright told me that.  As time went on and she got even worse (age 14, I think), she got even more support, and then for the past year and a half she has been in hospitals and residential treatment facilities, but there's still no improvement. She routinely refuses individual T, group T, and medication, and still is determined to do whatever she wants to do regardless of what anyone says.

Even if things didn't work out the right way for my own daughter, there still may be benefit in having some early intervention for at risk kids - even if 80% are stubborn like my daughter, the other 20% could still be helped. 


Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: qcarolr on February 03, 2012, 05:28:30 PM
Good point, qcarolr.  Who is to say that the child would accept the help?


Even if things didn't work out the right way for my own daughter, there still may be benefit in having some early intervention for at risk kids - even if 80% are stubborn like my daughter, the other 20% could still be helped. 

Guess this is why I am here still. As a parent we each do whatever we can find to do for each of our kids. Maybe your D will find a path to more stability as she grows up some more. She will most likely always be stubborn, as is my DD.

DD will do what DD chooses to do. My goal is to protect myself and the others in my household to the best of my ability when needed. And to allow DD to manage her life in whatever way she can. I also can see that she is making a strong effort to follow the house rules, be a part of the family in whatever ways she is able, so she can live here. She is overall more stable than she has ever been in her life right now. Hanging in there at Dr. Gunderson's Emotional Level I perhaps.  And she is conscientious about taking her prozac which keeps her panic disorder/anxiety manageable - and the temper tantrums under control. I can see that emotions still simmer below the surface - she is able to take time out from us when needed without any cues from us. This is stability for her in my house.


Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: Reality on February 03, 2012, 06:11:57 PM
Sorry qcaroir, I didn't mean to offend you. 

Reality


Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: qcarolr on February 04, 2012, 03:58:57 PM
Sorry qcaroir, I didn't mean to offend you. 

Reality

Reality -  I think you have added a lot to our board with your posts. They make me think, and this is good. I have been kind of emotional the past couple days so maybe by replies are not well thought out. No offense taken here.

qcr


Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: Lempicka on February 04, 2012, 04:04:09 PM
The author Donna Wlliams supposedly has both BPD and autism.

I also think this was the case with my ex girlfriend (dx'd Asperger's, but had many BPD symptoms).

People with AS have a certain appeal to them, don't they?


Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: Reality on February 05, 2012, 08:59:22 AM
Lempicka

I had never heard of Donna Williams before, so I googled... .she is fascinating.  Her book, "Nobody Nowhere" is definitely a must-read-very-soon.  Thank you for the mention.

A certain appeal is a good way to put it.  I am becoming very interested in the link between autism, dyslexia, BPD, highly sensitive natures, abstract random thinking patterns, art and music. 

Reality


Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: heronbird on February 05, 2012, 12:58:51 PM
yes fasinating isnt it. I like my BPDs quirkyness, it makes her different, interesting and I suppose some people find her dangerious and like that. not me... .  shes fantastic at art but doesnt know it.


Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: Lempicka on February 05, 2012, 03:32:26 PM
I gravitated naturally toward AS people because after a lifetime of growing up with people who played head games, I found Aspies to be "idiot proof". What they say is what they say, that's it. There's no hidden special meaning.

I really admire that about them.

I discovered with my ex though that yes, you can be Aspie and have a personality disorder.

Also, just because Aspies may not have special hidden meanings doesn't mean they assume you don't, either. They may in fact be on guard and defensive about that. My Aspie ex constantly thought I was playing with her head or trying to manipulate things.


Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: tiredmommy2 on February 05, 2012, 03:41:51 PM
Excerpt
I discovered with my ex though that yes, you can be Aspie and have a personality disorder.

There is a member here who is an Aspie, who used to have BPD so it is definitely possible.  Not to get off the topic here, but I'm really curious about what BPD looks like in an Aspie.  Is there a difference vs a neurotypical person with BPD?

Excerpt
I found Aspies to be "idiot proof". What they say is what they say, that's it. There's no hidden special meaning.

This is what I love too!

Me: "I'm so happy to be home because I missed you so much.  Did you miss me?"

Aspie daughter: "Not really.  I kind of like being alone." 

Brutal honesty - gotta love it! :)


Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: argyle on February 05, 2012, 11:45:02 PM
Brutally honest, extremely violent, very abusive, not terribly emotionally sensitive. Push-pull is increased by inability to tolerate extended social interaction. (ie... .spend time with me... .but don't talk to me.) More likely to attempt murder than infidelity.

Sample size: 1, and she is more in the autistic tendencies department than an Aspie.

--Argyle



Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: heronbird on February 06, 2012, 04:26:06 AM
I dont know much about aspergers but my non BPD d 22 has just got a job being a therapist for a 3 year old autistic boy, so she knows quite a bit and she says that they are all so very dfferent. The boys dad is a high functioning autistic man and has a very very good job, they are loaded so amazing how the dad gets on so well, married and good job etc. They want another baby but too worried in case its autistic also.

Aspergers people do not attempt suicide or self harm generally do they? are they impulsive or reckless? I cant see any similarities int the two disorders. I more see ADD, even ADHD at times. But I read that a lot of BPDs get diagnosed with ADD first, I know my dd had these symptoms at aroung age 12 but no one bothered to look out for it, and I didnt know what it was anyway, not in girls I mean.


Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: argyle on February 06, 2012, 10:37:15 AM
Depends - Asperger's are more likely to succeed at suicide, to do black and white thinking, and to be frustrated with normal life.  They may also, rationally, fear abandonment and believe they are unable to make it on their own. My guess is that many Asperger's also have muted emotional responses, so they are not so at risk for BPD.  However, autism tends to run in families.  And, people with the social skills of a 2 year old often resort to physical tantrums.* Now, imagine a 6'4 grown man throwing a toddler tantrum and a 5'1 woman joining in.  Then, assume that the usual escalating cycle of abuse sets in.

Voila, extraordinarily abusive environment for children to grow up BPD in.  That, and, in one instance, I've heard of an Aspie whose Aspie father didn't understand sexual norms and who, fairly innocently, sexually abused her.

Mind you, I went to school with a lot of Aspies and am probably a bit Aspie myself and they were mostly more pleasant than the NTs - but there's variability in everything.

--Argyle

*This is actually why many boys are diagnosed with Aspergers - the violent tantrums are quite noticeable.


Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: heronbird on February 06, 2012, 12:18:27 PM


Gosh, very interesting, and does seem similar to BPD. I didnt realise


Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: Vivgood on February 06, 2012, 01:22:38 PM
Well, from the interior/personal perspective... .

BPD feels pretty much like Marsha Linehan described it-

"Borderline individuals are the psychological equivalent of third-degree-burn patients. They simply have, so to speak, no emotional skin. Even the slightest touch or movement can create immense suffering."

Being an Aspie ain't so bad. tough as a kid in school (well, more than tough, horrible bullying), but as an adult, I would not choose to be NT.

Both are amenable to tx, but the tx for BPD is HARD... .for me, memorizing and imitating "social cues" has been a lifelong endevor, but not really difficult. And as an adult living/working in academic research... .eh, we're expected to be a little "off". I don't know anywhere that being Borderline would be an advantage... .maybe acting?  And it wouldn't be worth it even with a showcase full of Academy Awards! ;p


IMO

vivgood


Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: tiredmommy2 on February 06, 2012, 02:27:11 PM
Excerpt
BPD feels pretty much like Marsha Linehan described it-

"Borderline individuals are the psychological equivalent of third-degree-burn patients. They simply have, so to speak, no emotional skin. Even the slightest touch or movement can create immense suffering."

This sounds horrible.   

Excerpt
Being an Aspie ain't so bad. tough as a kid in school (well, more than tough, horrible bullying), but as an adult, I would not choose to be NT.

It makes me happy to hear you say this. Although I feel horrible for the things (bullying, teasing) that my daughter has to endure, I think she's awesome just the way she is. Being an Aspie is what makes her cool and really funny! I will say that if the bullying gets out of hand, I will pull her out of school and hire someone to teach her at home. I won't take the risk of her being traumatized to a point where she could develop BPD too.


Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: Vivgood on February 06, 2012, 03:51:08 PM
Excerpt
I will say that if the bullying gets out of hand, I will pull her out of school and hire someone to teach her at home. I won't take the risk of her being traumatized to a point where she could develop BPD too.

Good plan!

you're a good, if tired, mommy! :)

vivgood


Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: Lempicka on February 06, 2012, 04:32:48 PM
It's very common for autistic/aspie kids to end up being abused by their families, too, because the families don't know quite how to deal with them.


Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: tiredmommy2 on February 06, 2012, 04:39:42 PM
Excerpt
It's very common for autistic/aspie kids to end up being abused by their families, too, because the families don't know quite how to deal with them.

It breaks my heart to hear this. They are additional challenges in raising an autistic child, but with once a diagnosis is made, there is so much support available. I have always worked very closely with my Aspie daughter's teachers and therapists, and whenever I had any problems or questions, they were always there for me. Hearing this just makes me want to run out and adopt autistic children.  :'(

Excerpt
Good plan!

you're a good, if tired, mommy!

Thank you, Vivgood. 


Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: thinking on February 07, 2012, 12:03:56 AM
Just to add, my mom and grandma wondered if my BPDd had autism as a baby. She was happiest at times just left in her bouncer. Never a snuggler as an infant or small child. Suprisingly, she was born a self-soother. Slept 8 hours the night we brought her home (the sleeping prolems began around 3). She was just very particlar about different materials against her skin and didn't want to be held or wrapped tightly in a blanket.  ?


Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: Reality on February 08, 2012, 08:17:15 PM
thinking

Interesting, as my BPDs23 used to sit in his little lounge chair, sometimes for hours, just looking around, when he was just 3 or 4 months old.  He could be by himself and it was fine.  Beautiful sleeper as infant, but once he started moving, he couldn't self-sooth at night, so I would read to him, sometimes for several hours as he would listen calmly and he was very relaxed, having me right beside him.  My other son would read quietly in bed and just go to sleep after a kiss and snuggle and prayers. 

My BPDs23 still talks about the feel of the material of his clothes and always wants to wear the softest cotton ones.

Reality



Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: heronbird on February 09, 2012, 04:02:39 AM
Reality, you sound like a lovely mum, I can hardly remember my dd when she was that young, I mean course I remember some things, but I always feel I was maybe a bit too busy or something, If she cried because she couldnt sleep Id do my best but in the end I used to just leave her because I thought she had to learn and I had to sleep and out 3 others had to sleep for school.

Now I wish I could have that time again I would comfort her so much more, I think I took it for granted that they were always going to be little and cute

|iiii


Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: mmt on February 19, 2012, 10:06:05 PM
i just started a thread similar to this... wondering if my bf has both... i'm SO glad found this!

if anyone has any more info i'd love to hear it!


Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: Reality on March 12, 2012, 07:58:58 PM
I am reviving this thread because I was thinking today of how I am behaving in my interactions with my BPDs23 when I recalled a book I read at least 20 years ago and then re-read last year.  The book is called Dibs and it is about the innovative treatment devised and practiced by an autistic boy's parents.  Today I thought to myself that my interactions with my son parallel in many ways the daily interactions the parents had with their son.  They practised mirroring their child's actions, so that when their son did something like rock the parents and even the other children in the family would all rock with him.  They also started the therapy in the bathroom, because it was a very contained space.  And they worked over and over to teach him learning skills and then useful content. 

My son spent 5 non-stop hours with me today talking and discussing.  Yes, five hours.  And then I realized after laughing with him at his jokes and basically  being a friend to him, that what I was doing was mirroring my son.  Radical acceptance is mirroring, I think.

Then, as I was thinking about how he had turned a bit nasty last evening and I had not freaked, (which I always used to do) and I had calmly told him that if he wanted to discuss the topic, he would need to use a reasonable tone of voice and not threaten me.  At first, he didn't listen, but when I continued to show him that his stance was not fair play, he lowered his voice and asked pleasantly.  When I told him that worked well for me and that I loved him, he gave me a kiss. Three months ago, I probably would have had a police visit.  He is learning Mindfulness at DBT and distress tolerance, so it is seeming to work hand in hand with my new perspective. I am learning to notice my amygdala being triggered and even noticing my fear spiking helps me to take a different path.  Later, I thought that whole episode was skills training, showing my son that there are different ways to meet his needs other  than by  threatening and acting like the meanest. 

Interestingly, I see my security system on the house as being a bit like the safe container of the bathroom, as it is a visible reminder to me and to my son that we are connected to the outside world.

When I read that book, it reminded me so much of my BPDs23 and now that I am learning DBT, it feels so reminiscent of the way those two parents brought their severely autistic child into the real world.  Their work was very intense as is mine now.  I keep saying to people the last couple of weeks that my son is coming alive again.  It is as if he is returning to our reality and leaving his own reality construct behind piece by piece.

He is very high maintenance of course, but I can see and feel a slight turning towards.

I welcome any comments or insights on my observations.

Reality


Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: almostvegan on March 12, 2012, 10:00:17 PM
I read that book!

You give me hope, reality.

Peace.


Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: Reality on March 12, 2012, 10:11:46 PM
almostvegan

Your peace gives me calm.  Do you see my point about the similarities of the two treatments?

I hope your dear daughter is doing well right now.  I am pulling for her and for your family.  She is still young.  With all the help you are giving her and with the dx at such a young age, she will do well. 

Reality


Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: almostvegan on March 12, 2012, 10:31:14 PM
Awww you're so sweet. Thank you. I wish everyone peace bc I know how much we need it!

I do see the similarities. But I think if I mirrored my dd when she " freaked out" it would make it worse: shed say I was making fun of her. Also when someone does to her what she does to them it gets her insane! Maybe a reread is in order. I'm open to any ideas that will help my family.

I read that book a zillion years ago but it stuck with me. I remember thinking how strong and brave those parents were. I didn't even have kids yet when I read it but I shuddered to read the pain that family suffered.

Things have been as good as they get lately. Today (and tomorrow) is "color war" in dd school.  It's team sports no classes Lots of fun to a tyPical. But dd hates it today she begged and pleaded for me to come get her. She refuses to participate. I only agreed bc she swore shed catch up on missed school wOrk and do papers. You know what? I picked her up and felt bad about it bc " why can't she be normal and have fun" but she came home and did two research papers and three missed assignments. Not without battles but it got done.

Tomorrow is day two and I asked. Cousin who's of similar size and always looks nice to take her shopping.  Cousin will pick dd up from school ( lives in same town), shop with her and bring her back. I'm proud of MYSELF for coming up with the idea and happy for my dd that she won't have to be forced into something she hates which could potentially trigger her or set off a bad mood. I hope she spends tons of money and gets loads of things and has fun with her cousin. ( cousin is 30ish. Still young enough to be "cool" to a 15 yo).


When you mention successes you've had it gives me hope. Sometimes with dd I feel so terribly hopeless.


Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: Reality on January 19, 2013, 04:08:54 PM
Moving this thread to let new members read the posts.

Reality


Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: sam-99 on January 19, 2013, 07:14:01 PM
My dd's first diagnosis was depression.  The second was PDD-NOS which is just short of being Aspergers.  Took a couple more years for the BPD diagnosis to come to be evident.  Seems like that was the natural progression for her.  Question is was is BPD all along or did it just evolve through her adolescence?  hmmmm... .  All the diagnosis seemed to fit at the time... .  but each new one fit just a little better than the last, with BPD being the nail on the head at present.  (bi-polar was a thought at some point, just not quite right... .  some ADD aspects presented here and there also.)


Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: FoolishOne on January 19, 2013, 07:33:56 PM
I don't know if this is helpful in any way... .  but my BPDw has BPD and her son has Asperger's Syndrome.  FYI

F1


Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: Kate4queen on January 20, 2013, 03:14:19 PM
my eldest has Aspergers, he's 23 and he is so different to my 21 year old son with BPD that I can't imagine them being compared. :)

1,

Eldest is socially unaware, doesn't lie and puts his foot in it all the time because of that. Second son lies constantly just for the fun of it, and very carefully uses his words for the most massive impact imaginable.

2. Younger son spent years ridiculing and attempting to destroy older brother using his words and inability to stop driving his point and his world vision home. We tried to intervene, it was like slaughter, but that just seemed to make it worse. Older kid eventually turned around and told younger to F off out of his life, and when it wouldn't stop he punched his brother in the face. Now I'm not an advocate for violence by any means but for my Aspy son this was the most straightforward way to deal with an intolerable long term assassination of his character. After that second son gave up on the taunting and has created a life long enemy because my Aspy son is incapable of lying about how he feels. Sometimes I envy him that ability.:)

But I do think that knowing our family history with 4 grandparents who between them showed lack of empathy, ADD, BPD and other weird autistic like behaviors that our poor kids really didn't stand a chance in the genetic lottery. So I can see a link but I can also see how diverse the genes can be.


Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: Smugly on January 23, 2013, 05:42:46 PM
Interesting post Reality.  My DS4 was diagnosed with autism aged 2 yrs 3 mths.  My husbands sister is uBPD.  I have steeped myself in the world of autism for the past few years and BPD is one of the coexisting conditions which MAY appear with higher functioning autism (Such as Aspergers).  From reading other posts I can see many people with BPD also share other conditions which are regularly associated with autism such as OCD, ODD, sensory integration problems, etc.  however People with autism are not capable of the levels of manipulation which can be attributed to "typical" people.  To my mind there is definitely a link between the two disorders, perhaps the lack of empathy is key here and the need for control bourne out of fear.  My DS4 would be ruling the roost here if his ABA therapist had not shown me techniques to set boundaries and take the control back.  Research has proven autism to be a strongly hereditary condit


Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: Smugly on January 23, 2013, 05:52:57 PM
Sorry - I posted before I had finished! 

... .  hereditary conditions and it certainly has nothing to do with parenting.  I believe parents of those with BPD should also take comfort in the fact that they did nothing wrong as parents, as when enough research is done into the origins of BPD i think they will find the same genetic link.  My SIL had a normal loving childhood with parents who gave their children all the opportunities they could.  She still suffers from BPD and blames my MIL most especially for being the way she is.   


Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: mamachelle on January 26, 2013, 10:07:53 AM
Very informative posts. Just adding a bit in here. I've spent the past year immersed in BPD , autism, dbt, and schizophrenia literature. This thread here is some of the best and most validating real word stuff. Thank you all!

The autism dx is based on observation and also parental questionnaires as well as cognitive testing . If one of the parents normalizes the behavior as in my NonH ... .  It skews the data. My Ss15 (mom is BPD and brother Ss10 is bipolar) got the pdd-nos and bipolar and hypotonia and learning disorder dx but did not get an aspergers like traits addition until the neuropsych had me complete some key questions like " do I think my son will ever be able to live independently? ". My nonH and extended family buried collective heads in the sand for years and blamed it on a speech delay and SS mother not talking to him enough !

The world and schools are so much more supportive if autism dx than BPD.  I was told there was no DBT for kids in the entire large metro area because it is only for suicidal teens and older.

So I went DIY and trying to incorporate it myself.

All for now, obviously more education of treating and dx ing professionals is needed.


Title: Re: Aspergers and BPD
Post by: Resiliant on February 05, 2021, 12:00:21 PM
I just had to bring this one up again before the next sweep!

This is one of my favorite threads, and so much of this has resonated with me.

My heart breaks and goes out to Reality, her son was about the same age as my son.

I have so much more to say but right now, no time so I'll be back.

R