BPDFamily.com

There is nothing in the parenting plan saying how we communicate with BPDex. We finally got her to sign up for our family wizard last year, which proved to be very useful recently in court. We were able to print out messages and show what she read and when etc.

She emailed today saying she is no longer comfortable using ofw and now wants him to only use a special email address she created for him and he can no longer text. Stating she did not approve of how "ofw was excerpted and used against her in court"

There is no order. Should we just reply via ofw that we do not feel comfortable changing the communication method yet again so close to the court ordered mediation and then trial date?  How should we respond? Ideas? This will be her 5th change in mode of communication in 2 years.

Oh, and she dropped her contempt charges, hearing was supposed to be on thurs. most of our response and evidence was printouts of our family wizard and texts.

One last thing. If we did go for her gmail idea, can you think of lgl pros and cons using that vs OFW?

Just brainstorming... .  I've never used OFW, though I've heard it's good... .  

My thinking would be that as long as everything is written - like e-mail - and you keep copies of everything, it should work fine.

I don't know why she wants to set up a special e-mail for him.  And I don't think you guys have any obligation to make changes just because she wants to.

One way would be, "We will continue to use Our Family Wizard."  Then just keep using it, and document that she is no longer using it.

Another approach would be, "If you want to e-mail me, my e-mail address is Matt@Whatever.com."  Ignore the "special" one she set up.

I would probably not use the "special" e-mail she set up, unless you are a computer expert and you know what tricks it might involve.

In any case, you can submit whatever she writes as part of the court process.  If she doesn't like it that's her problem.

And you might want to file a motion, or amend one you've already filed, to get the communication method established by the court.  So she'll have one less way to jerk you around.

For sure don't talk to her (much) by phone, and not at all face-to-face.  A written method that creates documentation is surely best.

Maybe one legal aspect is what you said about how you were able to "show what she read and when".  With e-mail, you might be able to set it up that she has to click on "Accept" to read it - or something like that - so you get a return receipt when she reads it.  But I'm not sure it's very important;  if you send an e-mail and she doesn't read it, that's on her not you.  If her whole case is based on "But you can't prove I read what you sent me!", she's going to look pretty bad.

That's bizarre.

It's ludicrous that anyone would create an email address for someone and expect the other person to use it. That is crazy thinking even for a crazy person.

And clearly, email communication can be used against someone in court, as much as OFW. Was there anything in particular about the way OFW timestamped things to make her think it was different than regular email?

Does she have to pay anything for OFW?

Why respond to her at all at this point? Ask her to direct all of her questions to her L. It's hard to do, but it lets you avoid what is likely to be an inevitable pissing match.

OFW shows every time she logs in and looks at messages and ignores them. It tine stamps everything. It also shows when stuff is read. She doesn't have that with gmail, and that is what we used against her in court. Proving she refuses to communicate.

It costs $99 per year, but she still has until may before it expires.  We wrote it into the temp plan that we are going to trial for, I believe she is trying to change it before trial so she doesn't get stuck keeping it by a court order. We've been advised that it will likely be written in since it is what we've been using for almost a year now.

I agree with Matt and have her communicate if you guys via your email account.

Possible reasons I can think of her wanting you guys to use the email account she created is that she can hi- jack the account after its been used a few times by resetting your password and allowing her to log in and writing threats or other claims as though it came from you guys. Just remember that the person who created the email account has the ability to reset the password. Yes, there are ways to disprove this ill action but it will cost you guys time and money.

I wish you and your significant other the best.

Stick with OFW.  So what if she wants you to dance to her tune?  OFW is specifically used for high conflict communication.  I can't imagine the court letting her change email providers if you're not agreeable.  Of course anything can happen in court, but you just can't bend and sway every time she blows some wind.

How is this for a possible response?:

This is your 5th attempt to change our method of communication in less than two years.  This is unacceptable.  OFW and texting is the method that you suggested and that we have been using for nearly a year and I am uncomfortable changing this method given our pending court date.  With your constant false accusations of harassment, I feel we need to have a traceable form of communication.

I will continue to communicate with you via OFW and text regarding -child-.  I do not ever text you or email you with any other topics.  I will not change the method we already have established.

I am not comfortable discussing this further with you outside of mediation/trial.

Thank you.

Too long.

"I will continue to communicate with you using Our Family Wizard."

Yeah--less is more.  Don't give her your rationale or she will try to counter it. 

Yup.

Say what you will do, and then do it.

You may have to factor, anticipate, in that she just stops communicating.  I wrote in the need to use e-mail alone to document everything.  My ex then just stopped communciating,a nd using text messaging instead.  This was of course at a crucial stage in settlement.  Not communcating can be a way of controlling.

Yes - passive-aggressive BS.

That's one advantage of the "Say what you will do, and then do it." approach.  If the other party doesn't respond, you just do what you said you will do.  Takes away their power to road-block.

Reading her email, it is SO obvious that it is about control.  The scariest part is, we really have very little contact with her. The only time we communicate is when it is crucial.  For instance, this week, we were just trying to get permission to get a flu shot, making sure her mom did not already get one for her, and getting her insurance card info (Which she keeps refusing to give us even though she has said 4 times this year she would send it over "soon" 

The other times it has been asking where to drop off and pick up since our parenting plan sucks and doesn't cover it.  We use the approach "If you don't respond, this is what I will do.  Dropping at XYZ at this time"

and then we show up and she is not there, won't answer the door, etc etc... .  so annoying.  She just wastes everyone's time.

I am SO happy that the judge could see this parenting plan is flawed and we will get our day in court sooner than later to get it fixed.  Then maybe we won't have to talk to her at all.  And why is she so afraid of getting text messages now? She gets maybe one every two weeks if that.  Why is this harassing? In her email she said "I am uncomfortable with how you have been communicating with me"

Also, she says he is never to text her again.  If he still uses text as a last resort, can this be used against him in court?

My story... .  I separated and later divorced over 7 years ago.  It was a few days after I had called the police and raised the conflict to a new level.  After she was gone, I lookedin the computer browser's history of pages and saw indications that she may have blocked my email account.  Whether is really is blocked or not, I can't say for sure.

All I know is that my personal account emails to her have NEVER bounced back and my personal email account has NEVER since ever received an email from her.  Back in 2008 I once emailed her from my work account and she sent multiple responses but nothing since that year.

She once, just once, said she couldn't find a way to unblock me.  All other times she insists she doesn't have email (though I know about her MySpace and Facebook accounts which I believe require email accounts) and doesn't have access to the internet (she has a phone that connects to the internet).

My point is that she decided what she would do.  She avoided an email requirement by telling the court she doesn't have internet.  So court never pushed her to do that.  Her choice.  I deal with what is.

In your case, she doesn't want OFW any more because she found out it can be used to reveal the truth about her.  That's a predictable reaction.  If you already have OFW, try not to lose it.

It usually is.

Even for us, it's sometimes about countrol. You don't want her dictating how you communicate with her either - being that she changes her mind every other month. Even though you don't agree with her, she's allowed to say "this isn't working for me." It's her making the unilateral decision without your consent that is frustrating.

It's why parallel parenting (and tools like OurFamilyWizard) is so effective in these high conflict situations - it keeps each household out of the other's household encouraging clear, concise communication regarding the children.  My therapist had a client who didn't own a computer and so each party wrote in a notebook that went back and forth between households at drop off/pick up.

I think this is another "issue" to add to the checklist of things to cover in the parenting plan when you go to mediation. The courts will encourage this type of communication - or other tools like Google Calendar - that will reduce conflict. She doesn't like it because then she looses the ability to be taken just at her word.

I also think that once you have a more clear cut parenting plan, the communication issues will become more and more obsolete. My husband's second time in court took care of every single argument that they had been having for the past two years based on their two very different interpretations of the court order. It addressed every single day of the year down to the minute - and then he stuck to it, not ever straying from it. Ever.

And then things got better to the point that now they can stray from it because they're able to better communicate.

I like Matt's response.

"We agreed to using OFW and it's probably best to continue doing so until we can address it at our court proceeding on the [whatever date it is]"

~DreamGirl

OK, I think I've got it now.  Just gonna do a combo of Dreamgirl and Matts suggestion.  Thanks everyone for your suggestions!  I am so happy there is a group of people who can add input when these things come up.  My real world friends just look at me and say, "Is she crazy? Why is she SO crazy?" 

Nice to see they know she is crazy, but kind of useless when it comes to going to court etc and navigating the waters of someone who is trying to set you up to do something to get you "in trouble", especially when your kids are what are at stake!

I would not use the gmail acct she set up. However, gmail does have something like certified mail. I think it is an attachment to your email and the other party knows. What it does is time stamp it so you can show when it was opened. Yahoo doesn't have that option.

I personally would think ofw would be the way to go since it has been used and it works. I think the court would agree. I interpret it not so much as control but her being held accountable for her actions. I only communicate through email and ex has tried many times to change that even though it is in our court order. If ex calls me I send an email, if I believe her voicemail requires a response, and indicate what her voicemail said. I then respond in the same email. Doing that several times stopped her leaving voicemails for a while. Ex then started calling me from various phone numbers.

Oh David, I feel your pain.  She constantly tells him he is NOT to text her, and then she will text him.  So it is OK for her to text him, but he can't text her.  Ridiculous.  And the worst part is the only one who really gets hurt is the child.  We only ever contact her because it is a need to know thing regarding the child.  She has missed countless fun school trips, swimming, not had a sack lunch, missed out on dress up days at school, all because her mom won't tell us and it is her house these things get sent to. If we text, instead of answering a simple, yes or no it is "I consider this harassment!" It actually takes more time to spell that out than to say yes or no. 

I didn't text much so when things started falling apart I got rid of texting on my phone. I really didn't like it so it was not a big deal for me.

I wasn't getting info about school so I went to the school and tried to resole it without, around her. At first, since she had me painted as a monster, things were not easy. However, with perseverance and the help of ex and her behavior I became believable. Now I deal with the school and don't even bother getting her involved. The school didn't like that idea at first but when they seen it working they decided to do the same. I have meetings at school without ex ever knowing. Once we, the school and I, decide on the best course of action I let the school deliver it to ex. I am not mentioned and as long as it didn't come from me everything works out fine. The principal really had some discussions with me about this but eventually they got it. It took close to two years for that to happen. During this time ex just kept helping me by what she was doing at the school.

I get the same "I consider this harassment" when I just answer yes or no too. It's funny how similar many of the stories are on this site.

What I have noticed is something Matt said many times. I have problems when I explain myself or give options to ex. I still make the mistake but am getting better at it. I still make the mistake of trying to coparent and this is when things become problematic. I am getting better at it though. Practice, practice, practice.

This is a problem with the school, not the other parent.  (OK, it's a problem with her too.  But the solution is with the school.)

Talk to the school.  Nice at first - maybe they will do what's right (copy both parents on everything) or maybe not.

If they don't commit to do that, ask for the name of the school's lawyer.  That will get their attention.  Make it clear that they are going to copy both parents on everything, one way or another;  they might as well just do it, and not have to be told to do it by their own lawyer.

You probably don't even have to hire a lawyer.  Just call the school's lawyer yourself and explain the situation.  "I'm hoping you can get Ms. Principal to do what she's supposed to do - send information to both parents.  If I have to hire a lawyer, I'll ask the court to put that cost on the school, and that's not how the taxpayers want their money spent."

It took me two years to help Elementary school get it. After that things worked fine. When S14 started middle school I figured it wasn't worth the effort because it took two years for elemantary. After his first quarter and me being excluded I went to the school to talk to the principal. I sensed I had already been painted black. I strongly urged them to call the principal at the elementary school and they agreed. I wouldn't leave until they promised me that. I know they probably thought ex was right about me after that meeting. However, they did call, and called me back about 20 minutes after I left. They apologized about the miscommunication and I haven't had a problem since. S14 will be in high school next year so I will be prepared at the start. It also helped S9 a lot because they knew by then who to contact.

I would never be that patient.  It's not my job to wait for them to "get it".  It's their job - and their legal obligation - to provide all the information to both parents.  I'd give them about two minutes of nice and then a simple choice - do their job without their lawyer being involved or do their job with their lawyer being involved.

It's totally inappropriate for a school to arbitrarily withhold information from one parent.

Of course the other aspect is, whichever parent is more involved will probably get the information.  I've been more involved than my ex with the kids' school, so I never have to worry about not getting all the information.

Oh yeah, he volunteered all year last year and at the start of this year, he went to volunteer again and they made him do a criminal background check.  It was because she kept claiming their history of DV.  Once that came back with nothing, they have started being a little kinder. I think they are finally starting to get it.

At some point, it may be possible to subpoena some of the school staff, and ask them under oath what she said.  If she made a false DV accusation, that may be a crime - it is in my state - and it will surely make her look very bad to the court.  Once that is on the public record, it may be easy to get her limited to supervised visits.

We are trying to get someone at the school to put in writing what exactly she says, but every email they skirt the issue. It is always, "She said there was a court order. Please refer all further questions to mom."  I have a feeling they are beginning to realize she was lying to them and are now worried about getting caught in the crossfire. 

But there may come a time when it will be appropriate to subpoena them, and then they will have to answer your questions under oath.  They probably won't like it, but that's not your problem - you can say, "Gee, I'm sorry we had to do this, but it's in the kids' interest to get it all out in the open so they can be in the best situation."

She sure is going to great lengths to win the family Wizard stand off. 

Today we get to the school and there is a "Message in the office" (This has never happened before)

BPD mom told the school to let dad know there was a script for the kid to pick up at the pharmacy.

Kid is not sick.

He texts her to tell her he has no idea what this is about.

She texts back "I have the flu, if kid doesn't take this, she could get sick too"

He texts back asking what it is

She texts DO NOT TEXT ME READ EMAIL

he reads email from her which instructs him to go pick up a RX she called in to a pharmacy on her side of town.  It is supposedly something that will help prevent the flu.  Kiddo says she has not seen a doc.  Her temp is perfect.

He gets a text ":)id you get it?"

he then gets a call from a very confused pharmacist. 

The Pharm says, "Um, kid's mom wanted me to call her ex because she has a no contact order with him? Is that you?"

He says, "Well, I am the ex, no order though."

Pharm says, "Well, anyhow, I'm supposed to tell you the RX is ready for pick up." (Tamiflu?)

He says, "What is it?"

Pharm explains it is some mix of something they do there that the doc called in and insurance doesn't cover and he will need to pay $228 to pick it up.

He laughed.

Needless to say it was not picked up. 

Interesting how she had the school talk to him and a pharm call him but could not send him a simple text explaining what the hell was going on.  Trying to prove a point or just was hoping he would pay for some $228 RX that we are still unclear on what it is.

So weird.

My ex trys to use people like that too. My take is it is her way of making someone else lie for her so she can blame it on the school or the pharmacist. I know that sounds twisted but when I put myself in the twisted thing mode I can usually anticipate my ex's next move. My response would have been the same and not pick it up.  Make sure you document the entire thing in chronological order. It is a clear example of not doing things in the child's best interest and a weak attempt at engagement. My T told me before , " negative engagement is still engagement."

Oh yes, this is going into the diary of shame.  I looked into the RX, I'm wondering if she really wanted us to buy it so she could take it?  It supposedly shortens the duration of the flu.  But she is also someone who is ALWAYS saying kiddo is sick even when she is not.  I think she likes the attention.

So - anyway that he could have handled it any differently at all?

I don't think so.  he wanted to respond to her again, but I told him not to.  I told him it was not worth engaging her.  Just do not pick it up and let her deal with it today.  She gets kiddo back today and has her for the next week.  She just got $600 in child support, if she really feels she needs this stuff, she can go buy it. It was just a control thing.

Oh, and the one other thing she added to her email was "I WILL NEVER LOG INTO FW AGAIN"

So that answers that. Luckily, the court mandated mediation in is 2 weeks.  Hopefully we won't need to talk to her about anything between now and then.

Instead of buying the Rx to reduce the risk mom will give germs to kid keep kid away from mom until mom gets better. This lets mom recuperate without the added burden of taking care of kid   and also prevents germs from building an immunity to the medications kid is receiving. When I propose win/win scenarios to ex I usually get no reply and it ends. Not suggesting you do this now but this method of communcation has helped me quickly end nonsense from ex.

He engaged her from the word go.

My husband and his ex-wife are in a pretty decent place right now as far as communicating. However, there have definitely been times when really low contact is best.

She actually has a pretty predictable pattern - and I say this as a statement, not a judgement of her - but when she first starts dating a new boyfriend, she demonizes my husband (and her own mom actually). My best guess is that it's in a subconscious effort to create the Karpman's Drama Triangle (vicitm, persecutor, rescuer)  - "victimizing" herself by making my husband the "persecutor" and the new BF the "rescuer".

She's been known to accuse of him harassment (not so much a RO like your BF's ex - but a step down). He prefers to avoid it rather then fight it, so it becomes a little bit of a dance as to what he replies to and what he respects when it comes to her real (even though imagined) need for him to leave her alone.  

He would have told the lady at the desk "thank you". Then asked kiddo "you have a prescription? what's up - are you sick?"

No idea and no Dr. appt.?

End of the line.

He wouldn't have texted her - especially if she told him not to use that method. (Again, he only does this when they enter into the high conflict zone)

He would have checked the email account to be sure - and after reading what she wrote, wouldn't pursue it any farther for two reasons:

1.) She's playing games - it's inappropriate to be calling the school to relay messages. No rewards for that kind of behavior.  

2.) She called in the prescription - she gets to pick it up.  She made a unilateral decision to get a medically unnecessary prescription without his consent. (Note: She's also quite capable of follow thru when it comes to being medically responsible for the kids, she wouldn't let them go without)  

He wouldn't relay his reasons of course - because it's fruitless and argumentative. Doesn't mean he won't dismiss her when she's being irrational. She also knows that extinction bursting about it won't get her very far - because he's set the precedent that it won't.

 

If she contacted him again about it - he would say "I didn't have time to pick up the prescription, why don't you go ahead and take care of it."

And then ignore whatever rant were to follow.

~DreamGirl

As always, Dreamgirl, you are the guru of reading between the lines.  I didn't even think about stopping with the school.  Seems so obvs now.  haha!  I guess it is because he had never had the school relay a message before and then had the pharmacist call with a follow up.  She totally got to him, so even though he didn't respond in the end, she kind of won and was rewarded with a response. Interesting.

Thanks for posting; I thought I was the only one going through this.  My first hearing she (unBPDw) demands that we use OFW.  So I said great, the next day I paid the $99 and signed up for it and started filling in the calendar and kids names, etc.  I then started to communicate different solutions, as the kids were going nuts with her crazy drop-off requests and forgetting where the drop-off location was, etc.  I also asked for Doctor Information, Insurance information and papers regarding certain injuries the kids had during her custody.  Her plan was to sign-up the kids for activities on my custodial time without ever asking or even giving notice and then she wanted to show the court that I wasn't taking them to soccer practice or trampoline.  Well that backfired because now we're using it show another way she's trying to block access to the kids.  I also requested sleep-overs though OFW as the old orders had an 8p drop-off which was becoming tiresome for the kids.  I asked to switch dinner times or weekends as the site suggests. So our next time in court she asked to stipulate that only certain issues can be discussed on OFW, and that we can't discuss custody.  She had this placed twice in the same order!  She typically ignores responding to most emails on OFW and if she needs anything, she'll make the kids call me or she'll just text me directly.  I spent a month last year trying to coordinate Xmas only to find out we just had go with the existing custodial schedule because we never had a temporary holiday schedule.  BTW - she will login everyday to OFW, she'll never update anything, she'll never suggest any co-parenting changes, she just logs-in and does nothing. 

I've been told not to give-up the OFW communication.  Email is not detailed enough and cannot generate reports; also I use the journaling part of OFW.  I also provide our 730 with reports on communication.

Yes this is the lamest, most juvenile aspect of my divorce I often get a chuckle from those who are entertained by her latest antics.

The worst part is when she uses the kids to communicate.

I'd be interested to hear how it is going and also whether you've been able to use OFW to get what you want.

santhony

She has informed us she will not log into it again and will only use email from now on. We have mediation in 3 weeks, so we are hoping we won't need to talk before then. So sorry, can totally relate. She would not use the calendar either. And would only read stuff once every 12weeks or so.

So you have documented that she will only read stuff every 12 weeks or so and you have mediation in three weeks. If mediation does not work then I would think that piece of info would be very helpful in front of a judge. Doesn't show signs of real communication on her part.

My ex gives me the silent treatment every now and then. I actually enjoy the quiet. However, the longer the period of silence the angrier she gets when she does send me an email. It's all passive/aggressive and doesn't phase me anymore since I expect it.

I only communicate through email with ex and that works well. Remember, gmail has a certified email service so if you send an email through google you can attach a certification to it. That way you are notified when she opened the email. This way she can't deny receiving and opening it.

I did some searching, I didn't see anything for certified gmail. Is it in labs? What is it called?

GetNotify.com is reported to do free email read notifications.  There are other paid services such as ReadNotify.com.

Gmail read receipts are available only in Google Apps for Business, Education, and Government.

The general way this works, as I understand it, is that the message itself isn't sent to the recipient, just the link is and when the recipient accesses the text or graphic or whatever, the service logs when that happens and notifies you.

Of course, better just to stick with OurFamilyWizard.  These alternatives aren't nearly so authoritative to the court, I would imagine.

This actually raises the question, which I ask myself everytime I have to communicate with her. 

What information do I need from my uBPDw right now?  Can I get that information from any other source other than her and if from the kids, is it appropriate to ask the kids, or should I ask her first and then the kids.

If for a moment I think that the information I'm trading with my uBPDw will change her behavior, then I know for a fact it will not, in fact it usually takes a judge and a phone call for her attorney to explain to her that in fact your husband understands the orders and that he is following the orders correctly in that specific situation.

My uBPWw will not provide information that helps me or the kids, only if it benefits her, further if she is asked to do something on a certain date, typically she will not do it and will need further encouragement from attorneys and judges.

If your information conveys an action you will take, then I promise you will get a response if she doesn't agree, and then I ask you this, if you are willing to take a certain action, then why do you care if she responds?

Right now my focus is presenting what I want to the judge.  I'm not concerned anymore with what she wants and frankly she has no information that I can't get from other sources.  It may take some work and I may need to get a judgement requesting that information, but I don't need her.  It took two bench warrants and three hearings to finally get her financial records, but I never once asked her personally for them, it was all done in court and she paid all my attn. fees for that experience. 

I typically will text the following:  "I am working late, will pick up kids at 5:30".  If I don't get confirmation, I will send a text 20 minutes later.  "Please confirm my previous text".  I will also text:  "Please pick-up kids at X time at X location.

She does not tell me Doctors names or give me teacher reports, she does nothing to help any situation, so I have to take control of the situation as best I can, given the limited time and resources I have as a single dad with 3 kids.

Co-parenting does not exist with them, once in a while I'll ask to do something with the kids on noncustodial time and once in a while she'll agree, but I have a long battle to get what I want and what is best for the kids.

Santhony- You make very valid points.  It is something that I've tried to explain myself.  BF is getting better and better at not engaging her at all.  He still has a hard time wrapping his mind around the fact she is just a sick person who will not respond.  Like just a few days ago when she lefts notes at the school and had the pharmacy call him saying his child needed a $280 RX to be picked up when child is standing right there saying she feels fine.  He texts BPDex asking what this is about, and she responds with DO NOT TEXT ME AGAIN.

Kind of like someone else said earlier.  He should have just ended it with the Pharmacist convo,.  Kid was not sick, she was right there in front of him.  That should have been the end of it. 

I think he keeps hoping that one day she will just get over herself and start being a parent and stop being such a weirdo. But she won't.

I think part of the problem (feeling the tug to engage) is that BPD is such a stealth mental illness. What our BPD sufferers do and say is so wacky.  But then they go and buy groceries, and hold down jobs, and drive cars, and sit in meetings, and run PTA meetings, and blend in to some extent.

It makes it hard to keep your guard up all the time.

It would be easier if they dressed up like Napoleon, or talked to a big invisible rabbit.

My ex sends used to send me about 40 emails a month. That was for 5 years. Just recently the emails have declined to about 15 a month. I still reply to about 3 to 5 a month since they are about pick up times or ROFR. The rest are usually some attack or negative comment about me.

Lately she tried threatening me by saying I am in contempt of court because I am not following the court order. I follow the court order all the time. She made very specific allegations and I did reply with the facts only.

Oh yeah, BF gets accused of being in contempt and he always points out that he is following the PP as written.  It sucks. She just served him with contempt papers, we rescheduled everything for the hearing and then 3 days before she emailed and said she decided to "strike it"

It is all about control with her. Controlling our time.  Controlling information. All because she could not control the fact that he and I decided to be together years after she left him.

I find that it's very hard for my SO to accept that she is always going to be disordered and refuse to co-parent, especially since she did co-parent after they first separated, when she was hoping for reconciliation. He still reacts with anxiety and anger about her behavior and personally, I think he has some PTSD symptoms from her abuse.

It would help if they talked to invisible rabbits or dressed like Napoleon (quite a visual there!), I agree. It's a strange disorder. SO's uN/BPDstbx seems like a very high-functioning person on the outside, but the strange machinations of her mind are really quite disturbing. I don't really understand how people function so well with such distorted thinking.

Maybe we've stumbled on a technique for dealing with the "hidden" mental illness. Just as people are advised to imagine an audience or an intimidating person as being in their underwear, maybe we should imagine the PDs in our lives as wearing a Napoleon hat or rabbit suit. That way we don't forget what we're dealing with!

Think of the most destructive thing the person with BPD in your life has ever done.

For me, it was when she called 911 and told them I "pushed her down the stairs".  They interpreted that (very reasonably!) to mean that I had, um, pushed her down the stairs.  Basically attempted murder.  The police came, interviewed us both, caught her lying, and gathered physical evidence which proved she had lied - and then arrested us both, and charged me with assault.  We both spent the night in jail.

Later, the police report was issued and the charges against me were dropped.  But that night in jail, I realized I was dealing with a crazy person - although she acts OK most of the time.  It was a memorable experience.  When I think of her now, I always think of her as the person who put me in jail, accused of assault.

I bet we all have a story like that - the most extreme and destructive thing the person has ever done.  If we can remember that - not rationalize it or make excuses - but remember that this is the kind of behavior we can expect from this person, it will help us make good decisions (like getting as much distance from them as possible).

So true.  Actually, my DH has fared better than the other men in The Dark Princess' life.  DH is the only one she's never gone after with a weapon -- at first, it was a tire iron to the car windshield, but she threatened the last 3 men with her gun (ended up in jail on one of those occasions).  We have accepted that, at some point, she may actually go too far, with the consequences that accompany that.

OK, now I have an image of her taking SS from our house, trying to get SO arrested, and keeping SS away with no contact for a month while wearing a Napoleon hat. 

My BFs AhHa moment with his BPDex was when she called the police and they showed up at his door saying she accused him of threatening to kill her and she suspects he is molesting their child.  Up until that point I was not even allowed to say a mean word about her because he said "She is the mother of my child, and it is not right."

My Ah-Ha moment was about a month prior to that when I was sitting across the table from him and I told him, "I don't want you to take this wrong, but in the few months we've been dating I've notice that you act like a person with PTSD." 

At that point I didn't know anything about BPD but in my line of work I do know about PTSD and he had all of the signs, but no obvs history of trauma.  It was a few weeks later all the police calling went down and I started to put it all together.  She was abusing him like crazy for the two years post break up while they still co-parented and worked together.  And he would just keep his head down and take it because he wanted to be a good dad.  She hated me because when he and I got serious, those were the first times ever he ever told her no.  She would just call him in the middle of the night and expect him to drive across town and run errands for her "for their child" and he would.  I told him there needed to be boundaries.  That is why she hates me so much.

I always have to be reminded, but typically when things are going according to plan for the uBPDw, then things are quiet, but if her fragile world is threatened, then chaos ensues.  I suggested my D8 take voice lessons and I would take her to the lesson.  This is my fault; I was trying to manipulate the situation so I could see my kids more than once every 12 days.  So uBPDw scheduled voice lessons on dinner night, this was on top of 2 other activities for the other 2 kids the same night, and logically I thought great she'll help figure this out. Wrong, her intention was to cause stress and chaos for the kids and then have them focus the pain on me, so it was my entire fault.  She managed to do this so naturally and so fast, I didn't know what to do.  This happened yesterday and I've been reeling from it.  Now I'm calm and I'm going to let the day go on and I'm going to pick one event and one child and take one action which I can control in a calm way and proceed.  The rest won't get solved today.

Matt - thanks for the reminder, I will never forget the false DV, the false Deposition and smile on her face when telling the lies.  The lies they are capable of telling are chilling and I've been told they can actually pass a lie detector test because they are so convinced of their lie that their body does not react to it and treats it as the truth.

Has anyone ever noticed a sort psychotic gaze when they approach you?  I've really started to see this every time I'm approached by her and she also does this thing where she starts to shake or becomes hesitant when she hands something to me, like the kids shoes or bag.  I think it’s part of her act to convince herself that she's threatened by me.  It is really weird.  As my son put it, "mom just forgets things, and she doesn't know what to do".


santhony

I do think that we have responsibilities in this - to keep ourselves protected and to do it in a way that is conducive of our own values.

I remember my therapist said to me once, "I love my BPD clients - they are some of my most insightful, intuitive, and usually creative clients. I also make sure my [malpractice] insurance is always up to date and I limit myself to three at any given time."

It's important to keep ourselves safe - but also to stay grounded.  My husband always meets his ex-wife in a public place when discussing issues in person, usually for a quick bite to eat, and he always pays for it. It's an effort at having people around to keep her from making any accusations (of whatever) while being kind to her because he's still a gentleman. She's still the mother of his little girls. He still is respectful to her in that capacity - even though she struggles doing the same. She doesn't respect herself very much, so it's hard to give others what you can't give yourself.

They are still human beings who are suffering from a disorder that hinders them in a lot of ways, including being parents.

They still are the other parents to our children, folks.

Like it or not.

I don't know that it's wise to remind yourself of something that happened 6 years ago. 10 years ago. Coparenting books - even the ones that include high-conflict divorces - advise you not to harp on the past or constantly bring it up.  So while it's OK that you are aware of the capabilities of the disordered soul in your life, at some point there has to be a place where you can move forward - equipped with your own set of limits to help you in living your life by your own set of values.

It's OK to establish new boundaries that were absent during the marriage/divorce.

It's also OK to offer respect to someone who is parenting your child, even though you don't agree how.

My husband was hardly perfect during the divorce. Not even close. My husband also makes lots of mistakes as a Dad. Forgiveness goes both ways.  I feel like we sink to levels that we condemn in the other parent when we get caught up in these ruminations and discussions about events that happened when the ex was dysregulated and highly emotional during a very stressful time. If you learn about the disorder, you start to understand the behavior every step of the way. Making it less personal for us and allowing us to be better equipped in dealing with it. It becomes less "weird" and more managable.

Otherwise, we get stuck in the same cycles of the marriage (that are now defunct) - and keeps us from moving forward in developing new coparenting relationships with the other parent.  

We remain part of the problem when we don't learn new skills and run around blaming the other parent for being unable to coparent. It really does go both ways.

~DreamGirl

I dunno.

I think it's wise to remind oneself that this person can do incredibly scary, damaging and abusive things unpredictably to keep self-protection in mind. Your DH must do that, otherwise, why does he meet with her in public?

On the other hand, even though the reality may be that they can't co-parent (in our case, I do believe that if she would, my SO would) it does make sense to learn new skills for dealing with that reality: that disordered person will likely not share parenting and may obstruct, delay and attempt to hide information, etc.

At times when my SO's stbxw shows her vulnerability-when I realize that fear is at the core of her behavior-I feel bad for her. But when she is enraged and intent on doing as much damage as possible, not so much. She is the other parent... .  but she is mentally ill and she has already caused much emotional harm to me, my SO and SS-and that's hard to "forget" and put behind us completely-especially when it is ongoing.

JMHO. You can take both positions too far.

Oh, Harvey (http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvey_(film)) the pooka! :)

Spoken like someone who's never been to jail.

(I thought about writing a book about my experience - 16 hours of hard time.  If I did, I think I would title it based on the most memorable quote from one of my cellmates:  "Yo white man you snoring!".  Good times, good times... .  )


Well I don't consider myself co-parenting, and I would not suggest that anyone try to co-parent if the other parent has BPD and hasn't been in treatment for a few years.

But DG is right - it's certainly not helpful to bring up a subject that's in the past, and that's not going to change, when talking to the other party.  My ex has had plenty of opportunities to tell the truth, apologize, make amends, whatever.  She doesn't choose to do that.  Mentioning it to her would serve no purpose.  Reminding myself of it is helpful to avoid a recurrence in the future - make sure I deal with her accordingly - like DG's husband meeting the other party in a public place - prudent steps to avoid problems that could occur for the same reason there were incidents in the past.

Many here - and I went through many years of thinking this way - want to believe that if there hasn't been a serious incident in the past week, or month, or year, that "Maybe she's changed."  But if the person with BPD hasn't been in treatment - and isn't committed to changing her thinking - then the risk is still high, and that makes it super-important to deal with her in ways that minimize the risk.

You can have sympathy for the other party - my ex didn't choose to have BPD, and she isn't very happy, and probably never will be - without putting yourself in harm's way.

santhony- If you changed Voice Lessons to Ballet I could have written your post, down to the shaking and crazed look.  Her eyes go black and she stares and shakes. It is really weird. She also struts, like from the how The Jeffersons. Whenever she walks away after doing or saying something rude she walks away like George Jefferson, she walks in and out of court like that too.  It is an extremely exaggerated strut.  In fact, the other day, I caught her from the corner of my eye and knew it was her from the walk!

I do have many moments where I try to feel sorry for her and humanize her.  Like a few weeks ago when I caught her staring at my baby so I let her hold him.  For  few minutes I had hope that maybe, just maybe she could start acting human, then the next day, contempt charges and her saying she is being harassed, like that whole kind exchange never happened. IN FACT she misquoted me out of context from that convo and tried to use it against my BF in court!  I told her I was on my last week of maternity leave, she said, "Oh, I'm so sorry!  That must be hard.  What are you going to do for daycare?" Then I gave her a loose idea of what I was doing.

She then went to the court and said that my BF should not have his child on weekends because I told her that he would be working every weekend and only staying home during the week to watch the baby! Which is not really what I said, but it made the judge not grant weekend just yet.  She is evil and I have to remember it every time i speak to her, even when she is wearing her human clothes.

Her only agenda seems to be to get the maximum amount of money out of us and make sure he has the bare minimum of time with his child,  And now she is grooming victim number two.  Another really sweet guy and a new baby in her belly.

Makes you want to say, "Run, Forrest, RUN!"

I think that's 'hearsay' and someone could have objected or refuted it.  But of course judges make decisions without justifying every detail so... .  

Whatever has happened before is less important than what to do now. Avoid trying to emphasize how bad the problem is. With a high conflict person, this just triggers more defensiveness. Plus, people never agree on what happened in the past anyway. Picture a solution and propose it. ~ William Eddy, LCSW, Esq., author of "It's All YOUR Fault!"

It helps to face these problems with knowledge/experience - and to be solution focused.





This is an emotionally charged comment. :)

Being emotionally charged tends to make us react with emotions - not logic and reason.

You've also made it personal. You've included yourself in a battle that is between your BF and the mother of his child. Even if there is truth to her wanting money out of "you" or not wanting "you" to be around her child... .  it's up to "you" to relieve her of allowing that inclusion.

I, personally, used to go into hiding whenever she arrived on scene. It allowed my husband to deal with her exclusively and leave it to the two people who were privy to the divorce/custody case.

She twisted my words as well - because she is a fear driven creature who felt like my husband and myself were ganging up on her. She was suffering from what a lot of Mamas do when a Stepmom enters the picture. You get scared and nervous and often times intruded upon. Most mamas experience this and have to work thru it. I, myself, had to.

The BPD exasperates those emotions and where you see the "bizarre" behavior and the BPD coping skills. Feelings become facts and emotions rule the world. Her truth becomes her truth, regardless of your intent.

So I just wonder what direction you'd like to go with statements like "she is evil", "wearing her human clothes", "grooming victims".

Is this conducive of your own value system to react to other people in this way?

I didn't think it was. I see you as a kind person who loves her family and wants what is best for them. Are you living your values when you get emotionally charged and react with anger and your own "demonization" of her?

~DreamGirl  

Really good point!

I think over time, if one party is often causing problems, and the other party (or "team" is putting forward solutions, in time all the professionals involved - attorneys, judge, etc. - will begin to look to you as the problem-solver, and that will help a lot.

It puts more burden on you to always come up with solutions, and that's not "fair".  But it's probably a good thing for everybody, if you guys can step up to that challenge.

I think it is maybe the only way... .  the system is not good at coming up with solutions; only making sure attorneys get $$$.     Obviously, the one with a personality disorder is going to have difficulty coming up with solutions because with solutions, the drama goes away.  You guys are probably the best ones for the job!

I do agree that solutions are necessary, they just aren't the ones that we think they should be. I've started thinking of SO's stbx as an "obstacle" like david (I think) does about his ex.

For example, SS never has his cell phone that she pays for when he comes over and he never calls or texts SO anymore. Asking her to send it with him or allow to him to talk to SO just results in a flurry of denial and lies and accusations etc. His phone seems to magically appear whenever SHE needs him to have it, but otherwise, it's perpetually lost or uncharged.

So, we got a cheap Tracfone for our house that he can use while he's here... .  to take to his friends if he stays over or use if we leave him home alone. But we are calling it a house phone, not his phone (SO and I both have only cell phones) so that it's not his property to be taken back and forth (otherwise, it too will disappear). Hopefully he will see it as a chance to talk to his friends and us by phone without her monitoring it and gain some independence. But it takes away the need to get her cooperation.

I also think it's normal to be angry and frustrated with having to deal with a difficult person all the time, and we shouldn't feel ashamed or bad about those feelings either.

I like this reference - an obstacle.

I also like the idea that most of the time the problem solving is going to more then likely fall in "our" arena. It's the burden we bear - setting the good example, finding solutions, understanding the child, their needs, and supporting them in an intelligent and non self-sacrificing way.

The other parent can't, isn't willing, or chooses not to. Bottom line is that they just don't.

I try to remember (emphasize on try to, because I fail sometimes too) Skip's ideas on boundaries in amongst values:

":)efending our boundaries is more than a response in times of conflict - it's a lifestyle. Learn how to get in touch with your values, define and communicate boundaries of those values, and defend against boundary busters."

I feel like steps can often get missed when dealing with the chaos that a pwBPD can bring about. We get our own emotionally charged defenses in the mix and it causes more chaos.

I agree that we're allowed to get frustrated and angry. I do it. I'm really frustrated with my stepdaughter's mom who isn't financially contributing to the needs of her daughters and is having medical bills in her name sent to my house. She's boundary busting.

I have to still live my life based on a set of values and I suppose that is what I try to encourage all of us - you, me, hell0kitty.

That we still get to rock our beautiful selves and not get so frustrated that we go outside our values in this.  Just be who we are, regardless of where a disordered person tries to drive/drag/push/pull us into.

That's a good goal, to not let them affect our lives... .  but honestly, it is in my values to not enable people by being overly compassionate instead of holding them accountable for their choices.

I am in general a caring person, but I don't believe having a disorder is a good "excuse" for abusing and hurting people, and I tend to lose compassion for people who over and over again demonstrate they have little if any regard for me. To me, it's like saying the pickpocket is only stealing my wallet because he doesn't know any other way to meet his needs. That may be true, but that doesn't mean I hang around him, feel sorry for his crappy childhood, hand him my wallet or refuse to prosecute him.

At times I feel like you are asking us to have more compassion for the person doing the abuse than the people being abused. I can't do that. I feel she has made conscious choices to lie, abuse and manipulate to meet her needs, even knowing it's wrong. And she does know it's wrong because she stops it when people are watching.

So I may learn to see her as an obstacle and not let her take over my life, but it's well within my personal values to dislike her, to hold her accountable and to see her as someone capable of great harm to me and those I care about.

JMHO.

Disengagement allows us to understand that nobody chooses this disorder and those who have it are not happy campers, and also to protect ourselves and those we care about.

We don't have to choose between "She's responsible for her actions" and "She's a victim of her childhood".  We can believe both at the same time.

If we stay engaged with the person with BPD, it's really hard to avoid going too far in one direction or the other - either seeing the person with BPD as "bad", or sacrificing ourselves to keep the peace.

But by getting distance we can see it more clearly, and make the disorder a smaller part of our worldview.

I agree that disengagement is the goal. Compassion, for me, will be hard won, if she ever gets it. I don't see her as "bad", but as willfully abusive and I don't feel sorry for people like that, quite honestly.

I agree with all of this. I also think that it goes beyond just simple "disengagement".  It's one tool in a whole handy dandy toolbox of ways to deal with someone prone to this kind of high conflict that hell0kitty experiences as a constant.

There isn't a cookie cutter way to deal with people with this disorder - because they are all like us.

Different.

My encouragement aligns with Matt, it just looks different, and it is to remain grounded. The balance of emotion and logic. Be focused. Be yourself. If that doesn't include compassion for someone you don't want to have compassion for, that's OK.  My own compassion is not about excusing or enabling, but about understanding the behavior, not personalizing it, expecting only what is to be expected - practicing Radical Acceptance - and it is just another tool in the toolbox.  

I also think hell0kitty is trying hard to do the best she can in this and why she comes here to figure this stuff out.  

I agree with Tog, it is going to be a long hard road before I will, if ever, be able to forgive her for what she has done, and put my family through.  Honestly, as much as I love my BF, if I knew how she was when we started dating, I probably would have not pursued the relationship.  I've seen things in the last few years that I really did not believe I would ever see.  I've lived a pretty sheltered life in many ways, I guess. 

I also appreciate that Dreamgirl is willing to remind me when I'm getting too nasty, and referring to BPDex as not human.  It's true, that is how I feel about her sometimes, and it stings to get that reminder that I'm not being my best self, but you know, if I start going all dark, it makes me no better than her.

I'm just frustrated that she is in our life.  I'm frustrated that she is literally the one and only thing that I am stressed about in this otherwise very incredible time in my life.  I have a great family, a beautiful new baby,  the best job I've ever had, a new house, good friends... .  it goes on and on.  It is just a weird juxtaposition to have every awesome event be somehow marred by this woman.  It also sucks that I have thoughts like "I wish he never had a child with her" because then I feel like a bad person/guilty for wishing his child away, even though I love his child. 

I need to just not let her get to us.  It is a learning process that is improving with time.  Really, I feel we are past the worst of it.  I don't see her filing any more restraining orders, because we have worked to protect ourselves from that (With mucho help from this very board)

I just have to believe it will keep getting better until eventually we don't see or speak with her at all. 

That being said, I will still have days where I just want to shake the crap out of her in frustration, and will likely come here and vent about it.  For that, I apologize in advance. 

I think you're pretty incredible and are doing a great job.    

I don't believe you have anything to apologize for, personally. I think anger and frustration are normal and acceptable human emotions, and it's fine to have days where you wonder if she is human. Should you dwell in that space forever? NO, that would be bad for you. But these are people who do take an otherwise ordinary life and turn it into a drama-filled nightmare. My SO has PTSD symptoms from her years of abuse and threats/efforts to take his son away from him, and in my mind, she has choices and she chooses to deal with her emotions in ways that are abusive to others.

So I don't think you should apologize because you haven't done anything wrong. This board is for support and help in dealing with this and I personally find it invalidating to be told that anger is not an acceptable feeling when you are watching loved ones be abused, your bank account is being drained and your whole life is turned upside down by a person who is choosing to be abusive to others so she can feel better.

I think this is the point of compassion--not to enable or excuse, but to not take it personally.  I think about that when I hear about criminal actions in the news being blamed on a "bad childhood" or whatever.  We can use the "bad childhood" not as an excuse for the bad behavior, but as a way for the victim not to take it personally (if possible--a huge feat but some manage).  In a much milder example, if I didn't get much sleep and am grumpy, that may help my husband not take it as personally when I snap at him, but it does not excuse the behavior.

But, as I tell my husband, it seems more difficult to maintain compassion when re-injury is frequent.  One reason I have been able to be compassionate for my ex for the horrendous things he has done to me and our children is that he has STOPPED.  He doesn't keep doing things.  His ex, on the other hand, only stops momentarily before she starts over again.

He says she never fought in the marriage for anything (she is more of a waif), but now that he is away from her, she is constantly fighting with him for control.

Exactly. For the people whose pwBPD has settled into some sort of disordered equilibrium, it is probably easier to relax a bit. For those of us still in the middle of the court battles, it's not so easy.

I don't take her behavior personally and I encourage my SO not to do so either. But I also don't feel compassion for her. I hate her at moments when she's making our lives very difficult, but my overall feeling about her is FEAR. Fear of the harm she can cause me and people I love with her actions, fear of my life being disrupted so profoundly, fear of losing SS to her manipulations, fear of the horrible stuff that is said and believed about my SO in court because of her. I fear her less and less as the court starts to gradually get the picture and give us some controls, but I still don't see her as some pathetic creature whose uncontrollable disorder causes her to act out in ways that hurt me... .  I see her as making choices to behave this way, repeatedly. Yes, she's mentally ill, but not of the variety that doesn't know what they are doing.

Someday I hope to think about her as little as humanly possible and not have ANY feelings for her, but that's awful hard to do when you are in the midst of the hurricane.  

Fear is usually a sign of things we don't understand.

A good antedote to that is by learning about that which we don't understand.

Feeling sorry for her isn't what is going to do that. I agree that it is not conducive of what will lead to the goal of bettering the situation. It probably will lead to enabling. However, pity by definition... .  is not compassion.  

It's praticing Linehan's "wisemind" - taking our emotions (like fear,anger, even pity) and the logic of the situation (a pwBPD is limited in their skills) and meeting in the middle. It's a practice in remaining grounded and making wise decisions especially during court proceedings... .  which is especially challenging (imagine how a pwBPD handles it!).

Just like in this thread, hell0kitty, was able to calm down - look at the situation thru new eyes, where her emotions balanced with logic ruled her path. If you let your anger (emotions) rule, then like she said, you're no better then the the pwBPD you condemn. Same if you let yourself become unbalanced in the logic of the way you think things should be (i.e. a pwBPD shouldn't even be a mother).  


I can see why you'd feel this way and I'm often so impressed with your self-reflections and trying to put yourself in other people's shoes. The best description I've seen when describing a pwBPD is that they are "emotionally sunburned". They feel what we feel - but at a heightened rate that it's almost unbearable. I really try to keep that in mind when I'm left scratching my head as to why she's done something she's done.

I also think that is what this board has taught me. The Mama of my stepdaughters has yet to knock off some of the stuff she does. I'm on to her patterns though and that helps. A lot. It doesn't make me forgive her for being a real brat every time she gets a new boyfriend... .  but it makes me understand that it's why she's being a brat. (Again, it's the Karpman's Drama Triangle)

Perhaps it is a choice that she's making; but regardless if she's doing it consciously - I know that it doesn't have to be that way. The fact that I know that (in my logical mind) doesn't do anything but make me feel right or superior in my thinking.  The effect of that is that it makes me less accepting of the situation at hand.

It's the best kept secret. She's never going to change and she's never going to knock it off. It is what it is. It also my choice in how I deal with her - all of our choices.

Disengaging and ostracizing the other parent is a short term solution to reduce the conflict. In the long term, however, this causes stress on the kids. (Anxiety, loyalty binds, guilt)

Accepting and learning to find equanamity in amongst the experience is the long term solution that will yield the best environment for the kids. It is really, really difficult when one parent suffers from BPD to find that balance. Impossible? Nah.

*mod*

This topic has reached the 4 page limit.  Thank you everyone for your responses.  :)