BPDFamily.com

 Four months out of a r/s with BPD (or C-PTSD). No contact and healing up. Still oscillating between hating her and missing her but moving towards acceptance. She was really broken (very bad childhold), I was moderately broken = two unhealed brokens don't make a whole.

But one thing still holds me from letting go. She was so damn mean to me so many times. I feel I need to forgive her. Parts of me want to - accept her nastiness was a result of a mental illness - it wasn't personal (?).

Another part of me feels that she was "pure evil" and loved inflicting pain on me. Forgiving "pure evil" contradicts my value system. For example I will never forgive Hilters crimes becasue he had a tough childhood.

Does my struggle make any sense? How have others dealt with this?

Yes, your struggle makes sense to me and the question of forgiveness/acceptance is coming regularly here on board. So you are really not alone with this.

I can tell you my approach which is more acceptance than forgiveness. For me the most helpful is shifting my attention from the SO that I feel hate sometimes, to other things. The more I can continue with my life in a satisfying manner the easier it gets. I loose interest to find out if the person did it on purpose or not, I find acceptance by and by.

It could be also interesting just observing in which moments you are feeling some hate and when not.

Thanks - that does make sense. I know the more I get out of "victim mode" the better.

I completely understand your conundrum.

For myself and in regards to my fwBPD, I forgave the fact that they had/has a disorder and in fact, never blamed them on account of the disorder itself.  Being suddenly moody, sulky, whatever I could forgive, and I could even forgive their bouts of jealousy and temper tantrums that flared on account of jealousy and abandonment issues.

However, my 'breaking point' happened when my fwBPD refused to apologize... .  even though they knew and admitted to treating me horribly and in ways unwarranted.  The fact that they wanted to still justify their treatment of me - all said in the same breath - pretty much sealed the deal for me to break off without any more words.

Apologizing isn't and wasn't going to kill them.  In fact, ironically, it might have salvaged what was left of the friendship at that time.

But they didn't and they were self-aware enough at that time that they could.

So basically, they could take responsibility for their own actions... .  and then refused to and then wanted to justify their mistreatment of others... .  and then wanted to pretend like nothing had happened and 'move on' that way.

I forgave them that their BPD made their life hell, but I refused to accept that they were going to use BPD as their excuse to not apologize (and never apologize because not once had they ever apologized during the entire time of the whole hot mess) and to continue hurting others.

I don't know how else to explain it aside from, I wish them well in their life and hope they get better, but I wouldn't get anywhere remotely close to them ever again.

Just because they have BPD doesn't mean the onus and responsibility is NEVER on them and just because they have BPD doesn't mean their actions and words are immediately excused and forgiven and forgotten and that there are no consequences for truly poor behavior.

I identify with your position here, and have expressed it myself elsewhere.  But I keep getting told that I'm wrong and that pwBPD are not at all responsible for anything they do or say, ever.

I would think that, if true, there wouldn't be any BPDs in treatment or recovery, as those things will necessarily require taking responsibility for their actions. 

I believe that, at any given time, it is extremely difficult for them to acknowledge or own their mistakes.  I even believe that in periods of dysregulation it may be impossible - or, similarly, that doing so when calm may trigger dysregulation.  Still, I think it's possible.

Do I cut my exBPDgf slack for her illness?  Absolutely.  More free rope has been thrown her way than anyone else I've ever encountered in my life.  Do I forgive her entirely?  No.

The whole 'BPDs in Recovery' bit is what makes me think, also, that it IS possible for pwBPD to be self-aware because like what you said, how else could they be in recovery?

If there is no such thing as self-awareness and the pwBPD being able to be responsible for his or her own actions and reactions, then there is no such thing as 'recovery' or a 'recovered pwBPD'.

You can't have one without the other because if you did, then what, exactly, did the pwBPD 'recover' from in the first place?

In my case, my pwBPD very much asserted that they knew they had treated me and others around them very very poorly.  Are we saying, then, that this assertion is false and the pwBPD therefore has no clue what they're saying and that what they're saying is invalid because they have BPD?

pwBPD can't be blame for having BPD for sure and to a point, I certainly agree that 'they can't help it when they react', but when the pwBPD is asserting that they know what they are doing and that they are purposely being hurtful... .  then what?

In my case, I'm willing to say that my ex probably had little to no control over her reactions to things in the moment.  So, those things are forgiven.

However, she too had the ability to take responsibility for things in retrospect and I witnessed it on several occasions.  She could have had a discussion with me after the fact.  She could have apologized then.  If talking to me was too much of a "trigger," she could have sent a letter.  But I'm just not worth the effort - heck, I don't even exist.

But I think the dilemma is that the only time they have the presence of mind to acknowledge their faults is when they're "stable," and feeling "good."  And focusing on these faults can result in so much shame that they spiral back into dysregulation.

What they should do, when they're feeling leveled out, is make an appointment with a therapist. 

I did tell my stbexw that I did forgive her.  In my heart I was able to forgive not her actions, but I was able to forgive the little girl in her who had things happen that no person should deal with.  I forgave that innocent child in her and by doing that it helped me to heal.  I will also say when I forgave her it killed her - she couldn't understand how I could forgive her and I think it added to her own shame.  Realizing that she did throw away a guy who truly loved her like she has never known love.  If you can't forgive the adult try to forgive the child in them (especially if there was any type of abuse) it will help you heal also. If your not prepare to do it in person, maybe do it in a letter that you don't send.

I forgive him.

Had to do that for ME because the bitterness was eating ME alive.

So yes... .  I forgive him. That doesn't mean he will ever be in my life again. To allow him back into my world would not be smart. 

Forgiveness doesn't mean that you continue to subject yourself to their shenanigans.  

turtle

Radical acceptance helped me a lot with forgiving my ex and the fact she apologized to me too many times to count now for her past actions and behavior. It's been awhile since I've been on these boards. I am LC with my ex and all but moved on from her. Things are good :)

I agree with Turtle. Forgive for your own well being, because I believe that forgiving is a prerequisite to forgetting, and forgetting is where we want to be, right?

A lot easier said than done. It has been almost a year since my divorce and very often I experience anxieties and other negative emotions that have her abuse as its root cause. I get mad all over again. I am counting on time to heal the wounds and to have her memory fade out.

 

I completely agree with how confusing this struggle is and identify with each of your responses.  It's so difficult to not take all this "personal" when it has happened to us; how else are we going to take it?  I  did take it personal until I was able to accept the nature of the illness (radical acceptance) at which point I let him go.  I also got the "pure evil" vibe from my ex and to help me get past that... .  I prayed for him.  

I think their refusal to apologize or take responsibility stems from how much they fear being recognized for who they really are; from being discovered.  Acknowledging themselves as having faults would make them a bad person, and since we know there are no shades of grey in their thinking process, being a bad person brings with it a complete sense of shame.  The intense shame and feelings of worthlessness associated with taking responsibility for what they've done is next to impossible for them to reconcile.

However... .  everyone is responsible for their own behavior and being mentally ill is not an excuse for cruelty.  The pain they caused was real.  The things they did and said to us hurt. Their behavior was at least emotionally abusive and perhaps physically so. Just because our pwBPD didn't take responsibility, apologize, or be remorseful doesn't mean they shouldn't have... .  it just means they couldn't.  

We have a choice to forgive regardless of what they choose to do.  Forgiveness is for you.  Unfortunately, they will still be locked in their emotional prison unless and until they acknowledge what they did to us that requires our forgiveness in the first place.

tailspin

Im in a similar thought to Surnia.

14 years out for me with child so had contact for years until child grew into teen.

Some would say im 20 month no contact but it feels more like 20months detached than me actively seeking no contact. No contact takes to much effort in the latter stages of the process ( for me personally)

So onto forgiveness.

Like most here im sure we have/had a minefield of emotions and thoughts to to process and work our way through.

So forgiveness was not my priority at the beginning of detachment. Detachment was my priority within detachment, then my myself became my priority... .  etc etc

Without going through the last 20months as a bullet list, the process begins with us and ends with us. All our thoughts has to be about us (within the circumstance of the situation not life itself and others around us) when and only when we have dealt with US/Ourselves then maybe, just maybe we can be able to process something for the ex. Maybe though, by the time you get to a place of comfort within yourself and your past you probably wont worry about forgiveness or the ex. Maybe at the end healing you, you will want to forgive your ex. Maybe your ex will seek forgivess and you will be able to offer that, maybe you wont. Who knows.

Anything your thinking of offering your ex then offer it to yourself first. Have you forgiven yourself for your part in the relationship?

Again, healing is a process, you cant rush it and you cant miss any steps out or cheat along the way, you cant do it in reverse and most importantly no one else can heal you but you. Sure you can get support and help but it all starts with you.

When you are sorted you can choose what you want to do with your thoughts then.




For me 14 years after the madness and 20months after final contact. do i or have i ever forgiven her for her actions? I dont think i have. i havnt pushed myself for it. But inside i know i forgive her, maybe there is a subtle difference in 'forgiving' someone and allowing 'forgiveness' for your own well being. I guess the things she did/said just dont matter to me and so this ahs maybe lead to my own internal forgiveness of her and her actions towards me.

Im certainly not going to hunt her down so i can verbally announce my forgiveness as i dont think my forgiveness has any bearing on her life/future/past.

Its for me and me only.

I think it comes back to acceptance for ourselves to achieve our goal/s.


Im not to great with words so hope you can make some sense of this reality to help you along your own journey back to health and happiness  :)

I've struggled with this as well.  Sometimes I think I'm making headway and then I'll be reminded of something and get so angry again.  At this point, I'm not sure I could ever forgive him.  I admitted to him all of my faults and mistakes I had made and how I wanted to work on things to become a better girlfriend.  He NEVER communicated any of his issues with me until the bitter end (after devaluing me).  He led me to believe that he wanted to work on things too until he coldly broke up with me a week later and never looked back.  I apologized for my issues.  He NEVER did- just continued to play victim, smear me to mutual friends, blame me for things I had no control over.  He also led me on months later to believe he still cared, only to gaslight me for ever thinking that. 

The last time I saw him, I tried to be civil and he wanted nothing to do with me.  Just looked at me coldly... .  I could never forgive someone who claimed to have loved me for doing that.  It hurt more than the actual breakup. 

He'll never reach out, never apologize- just keep avoiding me so he won't have to look at me or face me. 

I don't know that forgetting is a realistic goal -- at least it isn't for me.  Because I am human, I will never forget some of the horrific acts of violence that occured.  I don't view that as a sign of not forgiving. I view it as a sign of my acceptance of the reality of what he did.  I also view it as a sign that I'm a survivor!

And... .  on the flip side of that... .  I forgive myself for my part, but I don't forget the things that I did that perpetuated the whole mess.  Sure... .  I did them out of ignorance, but still... .  I did them, and to forget that is not healthy for me.  I no longer dwell on that, but looking at all of that made me realize how I got into that whole mess in the first place.

Forgetting just doesn't seem possible.  Detaching, however, is VERY possible.  I've done that and it's a great place to be.  It doesn't mean I've forgotten some of the horrors, but I have no significant emotional attachment to them anymore. 


 

You're right SarahinMA.  He probably won't ever apologize and if he did, it's likely that it would be some kind of manipulation tactic and not real (that's jmo.)

Forgiveness isn't about them asking for it or even deserving it.  It's about doing it so WE can move on without having that anchor in OUR lives.

I remember so long ago when people would pull the "forgiveness card" (that's what I used to call it.)  I would get so frustrated!  Now... .  YEARS later... .  I get it.  And... .  I can't even tell you how I got to this place, or when I arrived here, but I did... .  one excrutiating day at a time.

turtle

I think you can forgive but it takes time. 4 months out is probably not long enough.

I got HUGE apologies and remorse from my uBPDexgf in December. It was quite a production.

I forgave her and then we recycled again lol.  At the end I indicated that it kind of made all the apologies look like a joke... .  but really they were sincere.

It has taken me almost 2 years of hell but forgiveness is possible. Forgetting... .  probably not.

As a very good friend once told me, forgiveness is not saying that what they did was okay; it’s just saying that we refuse to hold the pain of what they did in our hearts any longer.

OP, I'm about the same length of time out as you are.  I can really relate to the "pure evil" part.  Mine even told me that she was capable of the whole range of human behavior from evil to greatness.  Who says stuff like this?  I was so shocked at the time and didn't know what to say?   

I'm stuck at this point too and wish I had some great answer for you.  My ex also had a terrible childhood that included sexual abuse.  Her father is a total nutter that probably has more PD's than all our ex's combined    How can I hate someone who went through this when I had such a normal, loving childhood?  How can I forgive someone who took all my love and affection, gave very little in return, and then broke my heart and stabbed me in the back? 


This is good advice and I'm REALLY trying to do this, but how do we reconcile what I wrote above?

This is a beautiful answer.  Thanks for posting this.

I know that any apologies I would receive from him would be lies- he never once apologized for any of his actions the entire time we dated.  Plus, he admitted that he always told me what I wanted to hear.  To him now, I'm nothing- not worthy of an apology. 

I really really want to reach the point of letting go of all the pain, anger, and hurt, but I'm not sure how.  I trusted him, loved him unconditionally, wasn't perfect, but tried to be the best girlfriend I could.  I opened up to him in more ways that I've been, was more vulnerable than I've ever been and I keep feeling this sense of just unfairness... .  why did this happen?  I know, I know... .  I'm still riding the wave of emotions after being severely traumatized in this relationship.  I just want to reach that point of acceptance once and for all. 

I know what you mean. I thuoght my gal was evil too. I thought she was NPD. My father was abusive. He and I got into a fight. Afterwards I started crying about it, she hugged me, and cryed with me, because she could relate. A person with NPD could not have done this. Is she evil?. Is a young thoughtless child evil? NO!.   

I have great compassion for my H. he's finally made an appt with a psych doctor, and we are in the midst of divorce.

I don't know what his psych eval will point to-if anything, maybe he just wants sleeping aids.  Maybe he will just charm the dr with his NPD. and feel vindicated after one appt-that it's really ALL my fault.

Maybe he will get some help for his bipolar (that was his dx years ago) or depression. Who knows?

I forgave him his violent and crazy behaviors. But I do not forget.

What I am seeing here in these posts is that we all gave and gave and gave. We loved and loved and tolerated really abusive actions.

We called it unconditional love but was it? Was our "condition" that they SEE our Love and make those changes for US, ultimately? that they become "fixed" through time-and with Our Love?

And when they didn't and couldn't did we blame them? I know I did.

I'm not saying it's wrong-but we probably had hidden conditions built into our Unconditional Love.

GL

All I know was, at the time I thought it was unconditional love.  Now, I see it more as ignoring red flags.  Things he said- bad-mouthing people, rudeness, etc. I tolerated because I told myself that I loved him. 

How can I ever forgive someone who has smashed all my dreams.   Who has denied the fact that we were each others' just about perfect lifetime companion.  I can feel sorry for him for not being able to have a relationship with anyone AND, more importantly, not being able to see that HE IS the source of his own inability to establish a relationship with someone. We get only a few chances in life to find someone who we really click with.  Most of us grab onto that when we get it.  BPD people can't do that.  It is their horror of life, but they don't even understand how bad it is. 

As my T is fond of saying: "I'm sorry but if she's asking for 'forgiveness' well I missed that part." My ex certainly is not so it's a moot point.

I lived every word of this. The day before my ex sealed me out of her life, she said, "I'm not going anywhere." But not just that - I mean I lived every single word of this. What a nightmare.

Having been quasi recycled... .  I allowed it with eyes open after 3 months of NC and LC ... .abuse and painted blacker then night.  The honeymoon... .didnt last long. Nothing... .really... .had changed. Shes still an addict and alcoholic in-spite of her ex new bf attempts at sobriety for her. She still gaslights beyond belief. I sit and listen, look at her... .and Im incredulous. I walk on the most fragile of eggshells in her presence. I accepted the most nefarious cuckolding and convinced myself its just her disorder.  I forgive her, and I see the little girl in her soo many times when shes somewhat NOT dysregulated. But she lies and then projects... and yet again... .I believe im black. Its almost comical if it were not so tragic.

I'm six weeks out after a 27 year marriage and two kids, etc., etc. She texted me about four weeks ago that I'm no longer her soul mate. How do you ever forgive that? No one could ever say anything more cruel. I'd rather take the physical abuse from her repeatedly than hear that. I'm just crushed.

My experience is that BPD's never anpologize, they blame EVERYTHING on others, so ... .since they do nothing wrong why would they apologize?

I identify with the miss/hate situation... .but acceptance of something that I will never fully understand has been what I have worked toward.

As far as forgiveness goes... the one person I have to forgive is me.  This person showed me in so many ways with their actions who they actually were when I first met them, but I decided to ignore all of that information and then to listen to and believe their victim story and invent my own true love story which was far removed from reality.  I find it very difficult to forgive me for being instrumental is causing myself so much agony.

I think forgiveness helps us heal.  I also feel like I forgave him everything, went back to him, and ended up absolutely shattered again.  So forgiveness feels dangerous to me right now.  When I see that hurt, scared, vulnerable little boy in him I feel overwhelming tenderness towards him.  And those feelings hurt... .a lot.  Because he has no tenderness towards me.  I feel better when I'm angry at him.

Should we forgive them?  Yes, eventually, I think it's in our best interest.  I know I have a lot of healing and detaching to do before I get to that point. 

Personally I don't think you can forgive them fully.

You can understand that its not their fault that they behaved the way they did but as Emelie said forgiveness is dangerous. To fully forgive them means that your ok with what they did and Im not ok with it. I understand why they did it but I don't forgive them for it.

There are some things in life that are unforgivable. We shouldn't be trying to be saints who can forgive every wrong. We are not saints we are normal people and like a person with BPD we need to have a coping mechanism. We need to hold onto the fact that what they put us through cannot be forgiven so that we don't get sucked back in.

By saying its not their fault and you forgive them what are you really doing? Are you just keeping that door open to allow yourself to make the same mistakes again? Is it you being saintly or is it a small part of you that is willing to do anything just to be with them again?

The only person who deserves your forgiveness is you.

For me:  Forgiveness is not enablement.  It is not endorsement.  It is not condonement.  

Forgiveness is about letting go of my attachment to an action or behavior.   I forgive for my benefit.  Because forgiving those who transgress against me provides me with freedom.

But I can only forgive when I am ready.  And it's harder to forgive someone who does not feel they have transgressed.  

But again, I can forgive an abused traumatized three-year old who screams she hates me when she's crabby, hungry and tired.  So I will eventually be able to forgive my ex, because she is that abused traumatized three-year old.

And I will forgive her because she is human and makes mistakes.  And even more importantly because she has limited capacity for executive decision making.  And I forgive her because her intention for being with me was in the hope of finding love with me.   She thought that our love could save her, just like I thought our love would save me.

She doesn't understand that she is not capable of love.  So she acts in a sociopathic manner.

But I try and do at times forgive her in small stages.  And that is what frees me.  

The act of forgiveness is not for her.  I sincerely doubt that we will ever have any interaction again.  I will never condone her betrayal, and I will never enable the Disorder to rule my life again.

But I will forgive... .in time... .when I'm ready... .because forgiveness of my ex helps to free me.

Tausk has some great points and I agree that you can forgive someone in your heart for their transgressions, yet they may never know it. You do not ever have to have contact with them again if you feel that it is not in your best interest to do so. i.e. Forgiveness does not equal reconciliation. I believe that forgiveness does not mean that what they may have done is ok or ok with you.

You can forgive without putting yourself in harms way again. I personally have been unable to forgive. I have been slowly able to accept this person for who they actually are, not who I thought that they were... .and that has taken me years. Acceptance feels safer for me with total NC. I do not wish them harm or want revenge or anything, but maybe some day I will get to the forgiveness part.

My relationship with my expwBPD was the worst relationship I have ever had.  From a moral point of view she was the worst person I have ever met in my life.  Despite that I forgave her and consequently I live in peace and I like the feeling.   And if past behavior predicts future behavior,  then she is living in turmoil.   I also heed that advice lest I repeat the past and become enmeshed with another BPD in the future.  Ghandi once said that forgiveness is an attribute of the strong, the weak can never forgive.

I think acceptance is the key... .to limit our own suffering... .and the fact that no matter what you say, do, feel, wish or hope will not change what THEY do.  In the brief few weeks I allowed recycling, there were no apologies... .there was only and I quote " stop telling me everything you have done for me" and " I can do or see anything or anyone I want"  And lets keep in mind, this was about a conversation I had right after we slept together again for the first time since the end of Feb. ... .and also that she is in a committed relationship with her ex of 3 years. Her anchor and face to the world via happy facebook pics lol. She was referring to her obsession du jour, a DJ, who shes been heavily seducing. When I said why are you doing this to your BF, her reply was he was above.

Do I forgive the tragic little abused girl in her... .yeah, I do. I have kids... .I feel for abused kids. But the woman she has become, is self aware enough to know she is not " normal " ... .we have discussed it. She goes to an 8 step thing... .and 12 steps... .and has been to therapy. ( She said she manipulated the therapist when her adopted parents sent her years ago. But shes been back as an adult as well)

Yet she continues to bring chaos to and misery to herself and everyone crazy enough to want to help her. She has an endless supply of beta chumps that will white knight her. I guess I fell from alpha to beta lol

I accept that there is NOTHING I can do to help her. Her last texts were I dont need your help or money, Im working and I can support myself. ( she feels my help came with a price... .sex)  I explained that I fell for her and care for her and that sex is a normal expression of joy, and pleasing, for two consenting adults. She sees herself being exploited for sex from everyone. Except when she is using it as a tool and weapon to get what she needs.

So I forgive the little girl, and I accept that I can not change reality. My withdrawal hurts, but I feel so much better without the incredible stress her presence brings. She said that I stressed her out... .it is what it is.  

I really like this.  And also I would add, that I still need to silently and more profoundly ask for forgiveness in my transgressions with my ex. 

For example, I lost my temper at times and screamed at her.  No excuses.  My brother in law has a success interaction with my BPD sister because he has no temper what so ever.  My ex's new husband, whom she cheated with on me, has not temper either.  Even I introduced them I figured that he was a better fit for her.

So I have to ask for forgiveness from her.  Because I screamed at a traumatized three year old and helped to put her in a state of absolute terror.  This is the just an example, there are many more.

But first I must try and forgive myself for my transgression against myself.  Then ask for forgiveness of my  transgression against her.  Then try and forgive her.

I have come to the seemingly obvious realization that you must forgive yourself first.

putting the focus on forgiving them is still feeding into the dynamic created during the relationship.

To forgive yourself to really forgive yourself you have to dig deep into the issues they pwBPD has uncovered.  You have to work through and resolve these core truamas.  This is the act of forgiving oneself accepting things as they are and following through with action.  Sometimes the action will be inaction.  Once you have gotten to a point where you have healed the deep inner truamas you will know yourself better than before.  You will have forgiven yourself of you inner turmoil by addressing it and growing as a person.

You will come to see the interaction as a gift and will have forgiven yourself.  Only then can you give true forgiveness to the pwBPD.

  Anything else is just burying the pain living in denial and justifying it.  The grudge will remain and eat at you. You may find a way to let go through "blissful" experiences and just focusing on the positive.  That is ignorance, ignorance is bliss.  You will have to lie to yourself if you want to take that path.

Guess I'll have to disagree with most of the posts here. For all I've said to "her" there's no way that the rage and violence returned or initiated in the first place was warranted. I will never forgive her for the hurt and pain and suffering I've endured; the trauma to the kids; the financial ruin; the sleepless nights; the drug induced sleep aids; the endless sex sessions needed to satisfy her insatiable primal urges and needs; the coldness and callousness; the take all my money I've slaved for and spend, spend, spend; the endless plastic surgeries that will be some other guy's pleasure (or eventual horror); the international trips, the fashion, etc., etc. I have been destroyed by a demon spawn from the depths of hell, But I love her and would take her back if she would only apologize. I am wretched!

You misunderstand what forgiveness is.  Forgiveness is not about being 'understanding' toward someone's crimes against you because they had a 'tough childhood'.  Forgiveness means refusing to hold a debt against somebody any longer -it does NOT mean somehow pretending that debt was somehow less or not really a debt at all.  

Forgiveness is something ultimately that frees you.  The alternative -bitterness- does not actually stop them, hold them accountable, imprison them, hurt them, or really do anything to them.  All of those things we wish upon them, in our bitterness, become ours.  We end up stunted, imprisoned, hurt, and chained.  Not them.  So forgiveness frees us.  Letting go frees us and accepts that our bitterness is delusional because it doesn't actually do anything to make them pay at all.  We only pay.  Forgiveness realizes that no longer demanding that they pay lifts the weight of debt of OUR shoulders.

Forgiveness doesn't mean minimization.  It doesn't mean pretending they didn't do anything bad.  And it certainly doesn't imply a restored relationship.  It doesn't mean it doesn't make you angry.  It doesn't mean it doesn't hurt.  It means you are willing to let go and stop demanding in your mind and heart that God, the universe, or whatever make them pay.

Should you forgive?  If you don't want what they did to you to hinder and impede your life and potential for the rest of your life, then yes.  If you want to really have your own life, to really move on, to really have a new life of your own, then yes.  But if you are okay with hanging the weight of a debt that really belongs to them around your neck for the rest of your life, then don't forgive.

I know that any apologies I would receive from him would be lies- he never once apologized for any of his actions the entire time we dated.  Plus, he admitted that he always told me what I wanted to hear.  To him now, I'm nothing- not worthy of an apology. 

I really really want to reach the point of letting go of all the pain, anger, and hurt, but I'm not sure how.  I trusted him, loved him unconditionally, wasn't perfect, but tried to be the best girlfriend I could.  I opened up to him in more ways that I've been, was more vulnerable than I've ever been and I keep feeling this sense of just unfairness... .  why did this happen?  I know, I know... .  I'm still riding the wave of emotions after being severely traumatized in this relationship.  I just want to reach that point of acceptance once and for all.  [/quote]
I hope this helps you let go - It wasn't anything to do with you. Period. Nothing.

By that I mean, all his BPD BS was created WAY before you came along. And the BOD stuff was deep unconscious wounds looking for a target and even now he is likely not conscious of that stuff, but it is merely spilling out unconsciously onto people around him, no different from a drunk alcoholic vomiting who cant remember it the next day.

That is why it happened - he was deeply mentally disturbed. And you slowly realized (I am guessing) that you had chosen to be with someone who didn't give you consideration, respect or empathy.

Like loving a lamppost - my ex BPD gf wasn't nothing but a lamp post. I can forgive the lamppost and move on, but only once I truly realized my gf was, in effect, a lamppost. Metaphorically speaking... .

Now, if she got well and became consistently empathetic and considerate in her action snot just her words (lies) - well, you never say never... .

But you get my drift. You would not take it personally if a lamppost sowed you no empathy, because ITS A LAMPPOST... .

Hi Hope,

This is a classic BPD/NPD action.

Conditional 'love'. love as need.

'You are no longer my soul mate'

Also this is searching for a way to hurt you.

Sorry to hear this

Yes!  This is right on. 

My focus has been forgiving myself.  I attracted what I needed at the time (that interaction) so that I would do the inner work and healing that was long overdue. 

At this point (a year out) I doubt that my ex cares about whether he is forgiven or not. 

What I experienced really at this point has nothing to do with him.  He just facilitated it.  That I can thank him for. 

I just wanted to add to my post that I havnt fully forgiven myself and her I'm still on that journey and I'm really learning what forgiveness is like never before in my life.

I say what infared says.
F forgiving them, forgive yourself. Accept what they did. Then move on.
PwBPD are like a force of nature in a mechanical sort of way. You don't forgive a tornado for destroying your house, you accept that it happened.
The only difference between a PwBPD and an act of nature. The PwBPD chose you because you are broken. The act of nature is less discriminating. Both act in ways that are out of your control and out of theirs.
If you feel like you should forgive a tornado, then by all means forgive the PwBPD.

I

Out of Egypt said it best.  Yes. We should forgive and in all my years of studying scripture that was the most profound statement on forgiveness. Thank you Moses! I meant out of egypt.

It is not necessary in order to detach.

But how do you convince them to do this without, you becoming painted controlling, or abusive, etc in their eyes?

No one seems to have the answer to that.

Wow, I love this...

I will work on this for sure. Thanks for sharing!

Forgiving my ex-spouse was for me, not him. Mine was a marriage of several decades with children who thankfully were over 18 during the divorce process. There was also drug use involved. I didn't find out about borderline until after he had been gone for six months and said he wasn't coming back. At that point, our mutual therapist explained how borderline and narcissism interact. I was emotionally half-in-half-out then, but now have no doubt that it had to end. He had been talking about divorce for fifteen years.

Like another poster, I decided that it had to stop poisoning me, so I gradually let it go. The marriage was effectively over when he left, but I truly let go and gave up a year into separation. I also joined a 12-step group then that has helped me immensely. After that it was a bit-by-bit journey that continued as the lawyers got involved. I was thankful for an attorney with a high conflict specialization who just wanted to get it done for me. He told me when I interviewed him that he didn't take clients who viewed the law as way to get back at their ex, only clients who wanted a fair settlement. He also said that he was expecting a hard fight and only took tough cases (smile). My ex picked a "I'll fight for the moon if you want it" attorney, and that plus my ex made for a lot of crazy. We did settle out of court, but it was bad enough that my attorney said I'd get a full chapter if he ever wrote a book.

Now I'm just sad when I think of what happened. The red flags were there from the beginning, and I had to forgive myself for ignoring that and then allowing myself and our children to live with such chaos for so long. One of our adult children is still working through a lot but is doing well overall, and the other has a more balanced view that their father is a damaged individual that went off the rails. We don't have contact with him at all, and he is no longer in our area.

You will never be able to control another adult, period. BPD and the like go so very deep that unless they change their core beliefs about themselves and others, lasting change is unlikely. Going to therapy to deal with something like that is painful, so they project or quit if they go at all. People who go to therapy and stick with it want to change. In most cases, those with disordered thinking don't want to change.

We have a saying in the recovery community that you should never work harder than the individual you are trying to help. I was secretly going to therapy for years and trying to do everything I could to save the relationship and manage the chaos at home while he just got worse and worse. Of course I had my own issues that didn't help. At times there were surface changes, but they never lasted. The last time he went to therapy, he lasted all of a month.

Then after he left, he decided that I was the crazy one and got his family behind him. Then they decided as a family that therapy was all a crock and told me that they would handle any counselling. As if what really happened (he said I made up all of his misbehaviors) was just ordinary marital conflict. So family system issues enabled it. 

I didn't give up easily, but getting divorced was a must. We are not in contact, so I have no idea how he is doing. Had to be.

My ex did evil things, however, I look at her evil in the same way I look at a predator as 'evil'.

These people have a set of intense emotional needs and have developed the necessary tools and standard patterns to fulfil them. It works wonders for them because people (esp. codependent types) enable it. I know I did.

I forgive my ex because I don't blame her for her actions, the same way I don't blame a cat for attacking pigeons in the garden, or a drug addict looking for their next hit. I have completely mentally recategorized her and her behaviors into that of a 'disordered person' and this has helped almost all of my anguish and disgust fade.

However, I haven't yet forgiven myself for enabling a destructive entity like my ex happen to me, which I intend to fix.

I feel like I'm intrigued by her, like I'm sorry for her and even jealous in a way that she'll get to experience the extremes of love so many times in her life - but I don't hold her to the standards I would a non-PD person, if I did, I'd be going nuts.

   

Into the Wind.  She'll get to experience the extremes of love given to her.  Without returning it.  Really tragic for the people involved.  I was recently discarded in typical abrupt fashion after giving so very, very much.  Including trying to help her as an addict which I found out part way through.  Fortunately it was only 8 months.  I have had other people with bpd traits in my life but she was the first to combine extreme neediness, victimhood, supposed fragility; with the most (in retrospect) glib lying and deception and using with no conscience.  The most shocking thing I've ever experienced.  Related to your point about evil, I think some are.  As Vaknin says, they can be dissociative psychopaths and ARE evil; not intentionally evil.  Evil as a virus is evil or a lioness is evil.  I have some desires for meeting again but I don't know exactly why.  Not to rekindle anything.  I am emotionally very afraid of this person by now.  It would be an arms-length meeting, emotionally.  I know that they can do unimaginable hurtful things with no conscience and no remorse.  Only the shame feeling for them of being found out. 

@upanddown

Hate to play devils advocate, but anything Vaknin says should be taken with many, many grains of salt. He is a liar, who has no official qualification. Everything he says is intuitive, but he states it as scientific fact.

That's what I heard about Vaknin before I ever listened to his videos.  I don't know about his qualifications or lies about himself or other areas.  I do know that over the years I have read very much clinical, published information about bpd.  And 90% of what he talks about with respect to bpd can also be found in respected articles.  I changed my mind by listening, not by going with other people's opinions.  The comment I repeated about some bpd people being secondary psychopaths (according to him), can be found in other respected articles (do a search).  Even a book - "The Science of Evil: On Empathy and the Origins of Evil".  It's true he does hypothesize further in some areas but I found him thought provoking and clear thinking in analyzing the disorder.

I forgave mine long ago. Doesn't mean I am OK with what she did, only I am also not OK with the circumstances that made her do it. She is doing the best she can, putting in the work, getting better and staying positive in a world that punishes people like her for being who they are. I am identifying my patterns and working on those. Who am I to judge?