BPDFamily.com

I read about a lot of the ex-wives with BPD here.  Wondering how it's going with women who are sharing parenting with high-functioning BPD ex husbands.  I am going thru a divorce with mine.  He's not an addict, holds a regular job, but has some issues.  He wants us to get back together, is getting therapy, wants to be back in the house... .   but I am too scared to let him back in because he imagines things (or lies, hard to tell the difference) and it's just too hard to deal with his manipulation anymore.  Maybe after years of intense therapy, he'd improve... .   but there are no guarantees.  He will say 'no' to things involving the kids just for control.  But I still care about him.  I am wondering how hard it will be when we're divorced. 

Right now, we have good days when he sends me sweet emails and stuff.  His therapy has stopped his criticism of me, but it hasn't stopped the lies and such.  It's going to be weird when it gets to the point when we both have to face that our marriage is over and we have to live largely separate lives.  I never wanted to be a divorcee and the idea of giving up the only person I loved enough to marry, that bothers me.  It will take years before I stop thinking of him as my husband.  I'm wondering if he'll split me black, be cruel, etc... .   or if there's a chance we can still occasionally do things together with the kids and be nice to each other, even maybe be friends.  Maybe I'm being naive.  Part of me wishes we could be married and just never have to live together, but that won't work out.  He will always want to come back and I can't keep telling him no and re-abandoning him over and over.

You may see me as confused.  I know what I need to do - just get divorced and try to keep my life separate from his.  If it weren't for this illness, though, I wouldn't mind spending more time with him.  Especially since the kids like it when we're together.  But it gives him the wrong idea.

Hi Momtara,

I think each if us with BPDexH's have slightly different issues. Many NonMoms are posting on thee legal boards to give you some perspective.

My exH was not an involved parent but he cared about his kids. Everything else, school, doctors... .   Summer camp, after school, friends, sick days, iep meetings, parent teacher, extra curriculars... .   Was all me... .   It was my job to deliver him 2 happy, well adjusted, perfect little angels EOW or whenever he chose of his EOW to see them.

I hid my dating from him completely. We both remarried others. He became abusive to the girls. Stopped paying child support... .   Now very limited contact with me. Nothing with his D!s. He was and is fairly high functioning but not college educated or wealthy so thank goodness not able to wage a protracted legal battle.

Wish I had a better story to share about him and coparenting ... .   but good news is now 8 years later... .  

My 2DD are now 13and 16 and are doing very well and mentally healthy.

Mamachelle

Hi Momtara,

  In some ways my BPD OCPD stbxh has a better relationship with the kids now than he did before.  He is no longer in the house making them miserable and controlling every moment.  His criticism is much more limited and the kids can call the relationship quits if they want to.  This has motivated him to control himself more.  My kids are older 17 and 19, but all the control issues have left them less capable than most young adults.  I have faith that they will catch up quickly.  The kids are used to having my support and involvement and don't have any adjustment to make on that end.

  The good and bad days (emails and stuff) ended when I was simple, non-blaming and clear that I did not feel any romantic love for him or anyone else and was unavailable.  For some reason, he found that calming.  I can talk pleasantly to him, but then he wonders why we are not married anymore.  He was never concerned with meeting my emotional needs or being a true partner, so to him it seems like "business as usual."   This is not an easy task!  Maybe we will be able to get along at some point, but now only for short visits with other people around.

Hi momtara,

I just wanted to add that I did have times where I was sad that I could not have what I perceived as a normal post divorce ... .   Maybe what i saw in disney movies or my more progressive friends... .   Where things were easier for all. I tried and still do try to remain as calm, neutral, and kind in my communications with exH. I think it's worth a try for you to have calm short family time, in public with others around... .   I was not able to do it for long periods--- like over an hour or two. I considered my divorce to be a success on my part for getting myself and my kids away from his influence. I was happy to be out and my life changed. Friends told me I was a different person... .     *) I lived in fear at the end, so post divorce I still do feel frightened of him. I can work on that myself... .   but that's my own story.

Mamachelle

I sometimes wonder if it is harder when you maintain feelings for your ex. My ex became scary -- and even if I rationalized that it was the illness (he is bipolar II), in the end he just scared me too much, and that made it easy to move on in some ways.

Like sad but wiser mentioned, in some ways my ex became a better dad after we divorced. The parental alienation thing has been challenging post-divorce, and I'm almost numb now to the crazy emails about coparenting S11, but he also started to idealize S11 which can be both awesome and confusing for a child (been there, done that, know how it feels). Now that S11 does not spend any overnights with his dad, everything seems easier to deal with. When N/BPDx tried in the early stages to be very engaged in co-parenting, it was bizarre how controlling he got -- like wanting to know the exact placement of the wireless router in my new place, the floorplan of our townhome, where we slept, who my new friends were, that kind of stuff.

I don't say this lightly, but I also think the difficulties made me parent therapeutically as opposed to the normal way that my friends deal with their children. I asked myself what it meant to be emotionally healthy, and what it meant to raise an emotionally healthy child. And that led to a lot of good parenting practices I didn't even know about. They weren't in my childhood, and they weren't there prior to leaving N/BPDx and getting into therapy. Feels like S11 and I weathered a storm and now we know what we're made of. Me more than him, because I have an adult perspective. But when I think about what he knows at 11 compared to what I knew at the same age -- he is light years ahead of me in wisdom.

2 years out from final divorce decree.

After 17 years of a horrible marriage, I was glad he was gone!  Even though his BS through the divorce tore apart my family,  having custody of DD and getting her needs met made a considerable improvement in our quality of life.

But the BPD BS never stops!  Before DD turned 18 and she still had court ordered weekends with him, he laid it thick and creepy!  And scary!  Swimming in Emotional Incest.  When she turned 18, she considered all her options and chose to go No Contact and life's been going very well.  So well, she thought about ending her weekly therapy.  Let's wait on that, Kid.

Well of course BPD wasn't going to respect her boundary of staying away until she contacted him!  She ended up traumatized again.  She wrote him a letter, once again explaining why she wants nothing to do with him.  Of course he doesn't get it!  He's taken his creepy scariness to an entirely new level.  She fears for her safety.  She's putting together a restraining order.   She LIKES living in the NO BS Zone, and she's realizing it's a big responsibility  maintaining it.

Crazy and creepy are two of my least favorite things about the breakup.  2 am text messages, emotional blackmail, etc.  It is strange to think your life could go like an LMN movie or something.

Crazy and creepy were my least favorite things about the marriage, too.  As soon as that separation happened,  firm boundaries were set an strictly enforced.  I won't put up with him and that's why our lives improved.

What we have to remember with our kids, they're going to have to deal with a BPD parent the rest of their lives.  They need the strength and insights to cope adequately at an early age so they can have a chance at a good life and not be swallowed up in the BS.

My husband (still separated right now, he's out of the house) is neither creepy nor crazy - in fact, he can be very sweet and gentle.  But he can also be angry and do things to get back at me.  Nothing physical.  He lies, changes plans, almost can't control it until the mood passes.  He is getting therapy for it now and would get much more if we get back together.  We are still getting a divorce but I still ask myself every day if it's the right thing to do.  I am doing it because - even though he is getting therapy and owning up to most of what he has done wrong - I think it will take years for him to fix his problems, and he's not willing to stay separated for years and work on them.  

But he will barely see the kids after we get divorced because he says he can't keep living in this area.  All his family has moved and he'll be alone and he may just leave.  I wonder if years from now, my kids will blame me for not taking him back.  He's said such sweet things about wanting to come back to me, and even though you may say it's just recycleing, he's been pretty consistent.  I also am a bit weak at disciplining my son - he's just so little and cute and I don't want him to hurt, so he kind of walks all over me (granted, he's a toddler so he doesn't need major discipline yet, but he does things like throws food on the floor and I don't say anything.  My husband is firm with him about stuff like that and he won't do it in front of him.  I wonder if my kids do need that male voice in the house).  They are going to lose a father, who to them - when they see him - will seem gentle and sweet and wronged by me - and I wonder if the abandonment will just send them down the same road to BPD.  

Of course, having him in the house will make me nervous all the time and might just be a disaster.  I wish I knew what would hurt the kids more - letting daddy (who they love) back into the house, or just letting him go.

What is best?

hi momtara,

Your H is making a choice to leave. He is a grown man who can live wherever he likes and he is choosing to leave.

Your kids are going to have a lot of questions as they grow older. This is not a bad thing.

I hope you find some peace here in the stories of all of us who are raising these amazing resilient kids.

You really are not alone and neither are your kiddos.

 mamachelle

Wow!  For the first time I feel like I'm communicating with others who understand the trials of my life!  I have been divorced for only six months but unlike anyone else I know who is dealing with an ex, my story is so completely different.  The scary part is not the lies that feel like mind games; it is that he believes all of his lies and is so convincing providing partial truths to back it up, even I sometimes start to believe.  At the time of the divorce I just wanted it over and I did not have the money for a long court battle nor did I want to put the kids through it so I agreed to what the court ordered mediator recommended.  The court had ordered a Child Family Investigation (CFI) but the cost and time plus then dragging out the divorce for several years did not seem worth it since my kids are 14, 17 and 20.  Only the youngest would have been impacted by the decision since the older ones would be over 18 by the time it was completed.  We now share 50/50 custody for the 14 year old that is struggling and hurting in ways I cannot help.  My ex has played so many mind games with the kids that they are all convinced counseling is for weak people who are losers (like me) and would not help them.  The court appointed therapy for the kids was a joke and I cannot see that it helped and in fact supported dads opinion.   

Looking back I wish I had fought harder and completed the CFI, although the results would have been based on one person who might have bought into my exs twisted memory and that he was such an outstanding citizen, retired military, current sheriff employee etc.  Would they even notice he has no friends, has cut off all of his family except a sister who felt he had BPD and knew how to keep the peace?   He was not violent but would they understand the pins and needles we walked on to not upset him or his moodiness?   Even our two oldest bought into his twisted recollection and felt I was the one causing all the problems, not being supportive to poor dad.  The oldest has finally come around but our 17 year old is living only with dad and has become his confidant and significant other in all ways but one.  The emotional incest is heart breaking to watch.  I am trying to be consistent and supportive of the kids but wonder what the impact of this messed up life will have on them.  I had blinders on for so long but now that they are off I can see so much of what was wrong and for the kids still continues.

So in answer to your question, it has been hard.  He does not share medical or school information even though it is required.  I have made sure the kids doctors and school know we are divorced and share custody and requested I be included in all comunication.  I also check school website frequintly and have friends whose kids are in the same activites remind me of events.  I find it best to communicate via email or text and keep it short and without anything I would not want the kids to see since it will probably be shared.  Things I need to share with him regarding the kids I tone down if I know it will set him off (such as grades) and I send out the first day I have my son if possible so that my ex has a few days to calm down when possible.  I also avoid saying anything negative about my ex around the kids and if they do I try to help them understand why he reacted that way and what might have been another way to handle or options for them in responding.

Good luck and my new favorite phrase, continue to  “be the tree”.

Hi, be the tree.  I am sorry things are rough; looks like you are doing the right thing, though.  Are you breathing a little easier?  As for court battles, paying lots of money, etc., often you end up in exactly the same place you are now - just poorer.  If you read these boards for a while, you'll see that many people end up with 50/50 even when they spend money.  I am hoping not to end up that way because my husb is out of the house, and doesn't even take his visitation, but who the heck knows?

Bethetree - I have a question for you.  Do you think if you had to do it all over again and the kids were very very young, you would have?  Were there benefits to sticking it out?  At least you got to see your kids every day instead of just sometimes or most of the time.  Did you ever try to leave before and did you guys ever get counseling?  Also, did your husband ever physically abuse you or try to take the kids away, or say he'd lie about them?

What you wrote about the lies and mind games definitely hits home.  These guys are so good at it you can't tell whether they believe it or just have convinced themselves of it.  My husband is finally coming clean on everything and says he knew right away when he was lying, that he was lying.  However, he has been telling new lies.  So maybe these guys lie at first, then change their imagination to accept the lies as truth.  I've seen that written somewhere.

Hang in there - and any advice you can give will help.  I am very scared of hubby emotionally maniuplating our kids if he comes back in the house.

Rubies, you hit home on the term, emotional incest.   Wow that's what is exactly going on from x2bh to d 12.  Its like he replaced me with her. No physical molestation that I know of but right to the line.   Many young females have told me or others that h always gave them the creeps.

  I filed a year ago, seperated six months after a long horrible marriage. I have a s14 too.   h still lies, deceives, controls, blames, stalks.  Court orders help but he plays with them too.    Custody battle still goes on.   But without him and much therapy I am gaining strength and though awkward still , a totally different person.   A better person. I am glad I didn't wait for kids to be grown to make the decision to leave.

bethetree,


My ex sounds similar to yours who is very high-functioning.  We do stuff together with our daughter when we need to.  Consistently for awhile now we have been on the friendly terms.  I never know if I am doing the right thing. I see cycles even in our friendship and it still can hurt because I still care for him.  I have tried to be NC and it hurt our daughter, but it hurts her too I know when we do stuff together as well, or when we are civil not doing stuff. Either way they hurt.  It is what it is because it is the nature of this type of situation.


They may not understand for a very long time, but one day when they are old enough they will see your side and understand your choice.  What is best you ask?  I believe it is always best for kids to see their mommy happy. 

I think  BPD parents are great when the kids are little.  Playmates they can boss around.  The problem arises as the kids grow and exert a bit of independent thought, and their emotional maturity exceeds that of their parent. 

When the kids develop a sense of Self, Private Thought and heaven forbid, approach puberty, all hell breaks loose.  Normal human development is perceived as a threat to a BPD as they feel their control slipping.

The BPD assigns each kid a label, golden, black, whatever, splits and pits.  Each kid has to find their way of coping, none of which are healthy out in the world with healthy people, the unhealthy is what's familiar.   Raising my kids in that is something I will always regret.  Allowing BPDxh back into our home after our first split was the biggest mistake, after marrying him in the first place, I have ever made.   

DD18 is working diligently with therapy to recover.  I don't know if DD23 can or will recover, I am scared for her.

BPDstbxh wants to stay the night before July 4 and spend it with us.  I am probably going to say ok.  The kids love it when daddy and I are together.  They are so young!  In the short term, it's good for them, and nothing bad will happen in that short time.  Except that it gives him false hope that I'll change my mind about the divorce.  And then when I (probably) have to continue with it, it's like yet another breakup for him, a disappointment once again.

It'd probably be best just to be consistent and have a completely separate life (except for kid exchanges) but that's so hard!  I still care about him and I feel bad.  But I can't live with him.  If only there were really a drug that could solve all the BPD problems.

Your feelings sound very similar to what i'm going through.  We are about a month away from finalizing divorce, and on days when my high-functioning BPDh is doing "well", he can be very kind and charming.  Then I second-guess myself and wonder if filing was the right thing to do.  Especially since we still have an 11-year old at home, and a son just leaving for college.

But then I have to remember that I didn't get to this point by chance.  It was the uncertainty of what his mood would be, watching the kids tip-toe around him, dealing with outbursts of gambling/drinking when he didn't think things were going his way.  After living this way so long, I'm not sure I know what a healthy relationship looks like, but I know this was not it. 

And for all the promises he makes and the times that he is doing well, he will occassionally slip back into the old habits, or start something new (like calling 26 times in an hour when he's upset about something!) and then I know that I need to get myself and kids in a better spot.  In the long run, it will put him in a better spot as well.  My mom came back from an Al-anon meeting the other night and called just to tell me that she learned "enabling is disabling".  How true that is for many of us that fell into the caretaker role for a person with BPD!  It takes a lot of strength to walk away and learn how to take care of ourselves first, allowing the other person to do the same.

 

Hey momtara,

I would suggest you post about this on the Staying or Undecided Board to help you figure out the best way to deal with his request.

This is a big deal after being separated for many months.

mamachelle

Good idea mamachelle.

From a parenting stand point, I want to caution you on creating these situations that give the kids the idea things may work out between their parents. Every kid who's parents divorce holds out hope they will get back together. In my case, my ex told everyone he was divorcing me while we were separated (while at the same time going to counseling with me to work on our marriage). Son thought the separation was divorce and it ended with us getting back together for a short period of time before I actually filed for divorce. It was much harder for son to adjust to divorce, when he thought divorce meant you live apart, but still do things together as a family, and then everyone lives together again. I can see now that it was damaging to son.

It is best for your kids if you are consistent. Consistency makes them feel safe, even if they don't express it that way. What my T said to me when I left is: You need to be the grown up.

Set boundaries. Be assertive. Don't waffle -- it's often a sign that you don't want anyone to have negative feelings about the situation. And in this case, with divorce, it's imperative they process the negative feelings. Otherwise you're modeling for them a very confusing and unhealthy relationship pattern.

That's a hard pill to swallow, but the total truth. It was hard for me to accept that not only am I a single parent, but I am my son's only PARENT. His dad is more like his best buddy.

My kids are too young to understand anyway.  As for his request, he HAS stayed over a few nights, but not in the last 2 months or so.  So it's not completely unusual.

I know I can't live with him.  I doubt he's going to change soon. 

KIM, your hubby sounds exactly like mine, except for the alcohol.  My husband had some periods of calling 26x in a row.

I'm saying this only because I really messed up when my son was young, and wish I did it differently.

They do understand. They watch and see what you do -- some studies show that babies mimic their parents within 48 hours of being born. They notice your facial expressions, where you focus your attention, what makes you smile and laugh, the tension in your body when you talk to people. They see and notice and feel everything. They are learning their first lessons in intimacy from you -- you're the only person who is going to teach them what healthy, intimate relationships are about. They won't learn that anywhere else, not from teachers, not from friends, just you. They probably won't learn it from your ex, no matter how much you love him.

I think a lot of nons don't realize this because we shuttered a lot of our feelings for whatever reasons, and we underestimate how much learning and role modeling happens through non-verbal ways. We don't always understand healthy intimacy -- it's why we're here.

I didn't set boundaries for S11 when he was little. I wasn't assertive. I wasn't consistent. I did things with him, and spent a lot of time with him, and everyone I know would say I'm a terrific mom. But I didn't validate him or really understand emotionally what I was teaching him. Everything you do matters, it really does.

I try not to feel regret because I'm already so guilt-ridden, but the truth is I deeply regret how checked out I was when S11 was little. Talk to a child therapist about your questions because they'll be able to explain developmentally what matters to your kids in the early years. My turning point in how I saw this stuff is recognizing that I raised a codependent kid who is exactly like me, and I need to model for him how a healthy person sets consistent boundaries.

Sorry for the rant. I wish I could have a do-over. I've learned so much, and a lot of it came in too late  :'(

I am going through a divorce after 18 years with my BPD husband. When he decided to leave he physically took our daughters and moved. they are 15 and 17. I didnt hear from them for two weeks. I begged him in emails to bring them back to their home and offered to leave if he would. I moved out with just my clothes and he came back. Even though I have shared parenting 50/50 they will not stay with me all night. They see me occasionally but are very fixated on being with him. Im really not sure the power he has over them because before all this he was not very involved at all, had multiple suicide threats, and was very impatient with them. When I am cooperative with him and agree with him the girls have positive attitudes toward me and I see them alot. If I disagree with him about something... . like the other day he let my teenage daughter miss school during exam week to go to an amusement park. I have don't hear from them or him for days. I get the silent treatment. My lawyer made me feel that I basically had no hope to get any custody or enforce visitation because of their ages. I feel so powerless against him. They are posting things on facebook like "I have the best dad ever" and everything. The sad thing is that my daughters and I have always been very close... . any advice?

bcomingme,

Hi. Please post this over on the Legal Board for legal help.

I do think you should try for visitation just to show the girls you have a safe place for them. I also think that you are dealing with serious Parental Alienation here. Make sure this is not a ploy to get child support from you.

You need to take care of yourself now and focus on you for a while. Go out with friends and get off facebk. Try therapy. Go for a walk. Write letters to your daughters... . not to send, but to tell them you love them. They are still children and you just don't know what is going on.

See this link for some perspective:

The complex issue of alienated children (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=104479.0)

  mamachelle

They do understand. They watch and see what you do -- some studies show that babies mimic their parents within 48 hours of being born. They notice your facial expressions, where you focus your attention, what makes you smile and laugh, the tension in your body when you talk to people. They see and notice and feel everything. They are learning their first lessons in intimacy from you -- you're the only person who is going to teach them what healthy, intimate relationships are about. They won't learn that anywhere else, not from teachers, not from friends, just you. They probably won't learn it from your ex, no matter how much you love him. [/quote]
I just have to add that not only will they NOT learn healthy relationships from the BPD parent, but in some cases they pick up some of the BPD behaviors themselves.  I also am divorcing after 22 years, and the worst part of it is that I realized too late how it affected our kids.  Our oldest daughter is now 21 and shows a lot of the same traits. It is distressing.  I am so thankful for our 3 children, but I too often wish for a "redo" where I would have understood more earlier.  Being separated has allowed me to communicate more openly with our children, and has allowed them to live in a less stressful environment. 

By law I am supposed to have equal time. 50/50 but they just won't go along with it. A few nights ago, my daughter texted me at 10pm and said are you home can I come over and talk to you. I said yes since I live right down the street now with my mother. She texted back and said "never mind Im not allowed."  I called my ex BPD and of course he was yelling that I thought he was the devil and she didnt need to come down etc. Then he said "fine I'll bring her" and drove like a crazy person down here... . I could hear his car screeching... . She wanted to talk to me about some fears and her not sleeping... . she was here only a half hour and I took her home... . this is what I am dealing with. Then today we have her birthday party and he is nice as pie... . Im so stressed out... . I never know what I'm going to get... .

Yes, it IS stressful dealing with a BPD, extra stressful seeing what they do to our children.  We are the one who has to be the adult, and quite frankly the ONLY one capable of being the adult in these situations.

Lead your children by example by not being sucked into his BS.  They are learning how high the cost of having a relationship with their dad.

My two adult DDs got spun off the charts by BPDxh when he planned the divorce.  I think they are starting to get over it.   I asked a young friend what that was all about, their continued allegiance to him even after the divorce was final.  This young woman with bad parents didn't even have to think about it.  Money, he's giving them money.  They don't have to like him to do his dirty work and be his mouthpiece if they're getting money.

My Mommy Mantra:  Nerves of Steel, Will of Iron.    No matter how much it hurts, stay calm and be their for your kids when they're ready to fly his coop, then see they get counseling.

Thanks Rubies,

I needed to read that at the moment, haven't seen my S15 fo 2 weeks and everything was fine before that; feel like I need to do something but can't as stbuBPDxW (she is supporting his no contact with me... . with no reason given) and is playing him like a fiddle, he wont come along to stay with me when I have D3 & D10 and he aint responding to texts from me (harder that it's his 16th birthday tomorrow and I'm effectively cut out).

Feels like I should be doing something but doing something may make matters even worse... . It's raw hurt.

Whichwayisup

Bcoming me, that is indeed alienation.  Save all texts etc.  The tide in this country is turning against parents who alienate.  But I know it's hard to control teenagers or force them to do anything.  What happened to you is highly unfair and I feel bad.  (HUG)  When your daughters are older, they will see the truth, but I know it's hard to deal with right now, when you have been the best parent and worked so hard as a mom for so long.  You could try getting free legal consultations to see what other lawyers think, or just hang in there and be the great, loving mom that you are.

I can give a little insight.  My mom was nutsy and my dad left.  My dad was the better parent.  Because my mom was vulnerable, my brother and I stuck by her sometimes, even though I knew she was wrong.  I knew my dad would survive, and my mom was weak.  So deep inside, I knew my mom was nutsy and not a great parent but I still sided with her at times.  Plus, it was just easier.  It kept her from falling apart.  So your daughters may be kept with your husband because they don't want him to fall apart or don't want the silent treatment from him.

"like the other day he let my teenage daughter miss school during exam week to go to an amusement park. "

Things like this are probably a major part of them wanting to stay with him.It's not popular being a "parent" when the other is their "buddy" who lets them do what they want.Kids know how to play the parents break up to their advantage.

I am trying to be patient and understanding with the whole situation but it is so hard... . its heartbreaking not to be with my girls. We've always been so close... . but I think you are right that they feel like they need to stay with him to "help" him. My oldest daughter is cooking and cleaning and actually working and helping HIM pay bills... . (she's 17). They feel sorry for him because he is really good at getting people to feel sorry for him. I am hoping she goes away to college to get away from it all and get a clear mind. He works late hours and my youngest is literally running the town with no supervision. I have to check facebook to see where she is!

Sounds like you really care about them and put them before yourself.  You are a good mom.  In the end, that's what will matter.

My girls really are everything to me... . I just want the best for them... . whatever that means... . I'm trying to get along with their dad and make the right choices... . its just so hard dealing with him... .

Can you help them understand what codependence is? They're going to end up picking men exactly like their dad, and doing this all over again... .

I can't say anything even remotely insinuating that he is doing anything wrong or they flip out. Even if I make neutral statements sometimes they are very defensive about him... .

Wow, this is still so relevant to me!  And helpful to reread.

Momtara hello I have just found this thread and it is so helpful!

I hope you have a good day... .you are a great and caring mum, be kind to yourself too, thats what I tell myself anyway though some days I just want to lie in bed and stare at the ceiling... .!

My undiagnosed ASPD/N/BPDexh has been awful to co-parent with.  Although he was incapable of holding a job when we split up and an active alcoholic with 3 DUI's, his wealthy parents decided to show me who was in charge and they have paid for every time this monster has taken me to court, which was alt least 5 times.  He now is a small business owner and home owner (his parents set him up to keep him from moving close to them)and my children are mostly grown-D19 and S18.  There has been years of parental alienation, which D19 has bought into, hook, line, and shrinker.  My children have heard over and over the view that I am the one who deserved to be punished for my bad choices, that I had them in a bad school (private/progressive), that I had them in a bad neighborhood (historic downtown).  The parental alienation has spilled into their relationship with my parents- somehow my daughter feels these paternal grandparents who never come visit or spend time with them are the best, especially since they are wealthy.  Their dad's mom is probably a sociopath also.  D19 was the final influence in getting S18 to move in full time with their dad.  S18 doesn't like living over there, especially since D19 joined the military and is moved out, but has plenty of reasons why he won't move back in with me 50/50.  I believe he is just doing time until he can move to college- that seems like it might not upset his dad in such a primal way perhaps?  There has definitely been some sort of emotional reward system going on- I am interested in this term emotional incest.  I can see that.  Last time D19 was home on leave (although she wanted to go to art school, her dad counseled her to join the military as a way to pay for college- she has been sad, depressed, cutting, and eating disordered since joining military)their dad and step mom took up all her time- they would drink, fight, engage her as the counselor, stay up all night talking.  She heard all about their personal life (step mom referred to dad as sociopath- I just kept my mouth shut.  I don't know that my kids understand their dad has a PD yet, although it is only a matter of time). The day before she was to go back to base her PDdad freaked out, moved out, made her come to his office if she wanted to interact with him.  Wouldn't even come home to say good bye.  As I dropped S18 off at dad's after dropping D19 off at the airport I could see their dad was already home.  Obviously he freaked out about her leaving, they were so enmeshed when she lived with him.   In hindsight, I wish I had never had children with him.  Hopefully someday my children will understand and see what really happened here, that I truly was a great mom, and that their dad is textbook personality disordered.  :'(

It will happen Starshine! My children finally quit being co-dependent of their father's BPD. they use to side and agree with him because he is such an excellent manipulator and liar. They realize the truth  eventually.

My daughter was like this too, about her dad and step mom.  She would get mad at me, saying I was attacking her "parents"- she is possibly disordered herself, and has at times been very cruel to me over the last few years.  And then she's the sweetest thing ever.  Poor kid, she's got a lot to figure out.  I worry both of my children will fall in love with a partner like their father.

Thank you for your kind words, letmeout.  I have to hold on to that hope.  In all honesty, I have made some poor choices myself, which my daughter holds against me, and doesn't seem to let go of.  But PDdad and weak eating disordered mom is the greatest, if you were to believe her words.   S18 seems totally cool with me, although he never initiates texts unless he wants something- par for the course at this age.  Their father hipocritically blew my bad choices way out of proportion- especially since he himself has such a checkered past, but he is so self righteous and manipulative. 

Both my children married people who act almost BPD, It is sad how my kids put up with their spouses' bad behavior, just like I put up with that from their father.

If I could go back in time I would have gotten us away from him when they were little, then they would have chosen more stable partners.

Me too. I have heard that it's best to end the marriage and move out before the kids are 6. Safer for them to develop a secure sense of self during that period of developmental growth. Everything I've read says that all the disordered, abusive stuff starts to really show up in their personalities when the kids turn 8, and that's exactly when things began to fall apart for S12 -- wanting to kill himself  :'(

I do think, though, that it's possible for kids to turn it around once they're adults. It took me until my 40s to figure it out   but I can finally see how manipulative my dad was, wanting to enmesh me and do some seriously underhanded, undermining of my mom, who was codependent and not strong enough to point out what was happening. I finally have a relationship with her, a real one. Not much of anything with my dad or uBPD brother, tho.

Age 8, huh?  That's pretty interesting.  Kind of makes me glad I got out early. 

The reason I started this thread is that a lot of the advice and examples given here for ex-wives just seem so different than for ex husbands.  The issues and responses just seem very different.

I was having a conversation with S18 tonight, talking of D19's anger towards me and how she holds on to that and I mentioned that his father spent a lot of time defaming my character as they were growing up.  He proceeded to tell me that the reason why D19 has anything to do with me is that his father encouraged her to be in a relationship with me.  That his dad doesn't talk smack about me.  He just said his dad thinks I made poor choices. My kids dad has made plenty of really poor choices, he just had wealthy parents to buy him a house, car, and a business after the fact.  The difference is that I didn't think it was appropriate to tell them all of their dads dirty business.  S18 DOESN'T SEE what his father has done all these years, the parental alienation.  I guess he's still too deep in the thick of it, living with his dad and all.  I will keep waiting for the day my kids realize what has happened here... .

I grew up with a tricky father, and N/BPDx was the same way. They both perfected the art of having their cake and eating it too. They used tone of voice, body language, and other kinds of cues to deride, but then they say the "right" thing. My dad has this chuckle he does after he says something kinda mean or undermining. Then if you say something about it, or feel angry, he says he was just teasing or just joking.

So yes, maybe your ex is saying the "right" thing, like encouraging D19 to be in a relationship with you. But it's entirely possible (and you probably know this better than anyone) that he's using other tactics to smear you, ones that are hard for people to detect. Because just encouraging her to be in a relationship with you -- that right there suggests that he is enmeshed with her. A healthy parent will focus on how the child feels, not telling her how to feel one way or the other.

My dad did this my whole life and it devastated me. It took me until my 40s to realize that he undermined my ability to figure out what was real.

My BPDex was as good as any professional con artist. They live in a different reality than us nons and I hope to never cross paths with another one.

In my experience, I wish that I had separated from my almost-exBPDh when my kids were younger, because my kids would have endured/witnessed less abuse (they are now d11, s10 and s7). I went through several years of sitting on the fence, believing that things would change, denial etc,etc, but I got worn out. A bad incident with my ex and 2 sons was (one of) the final straw(s). I completely lost hope.

The ex had been in therapy (at my insistence) for 2-3 years (useless) and we did 3 months of marriage counselling. The marriage counselling was also pretty much useless, until I had an appointment on my own and asked the therapist why I was so numb all the time. She quickly figured out that our r/s was abusive, and combined with the incident with my son (besides me, s10 was always the trigger/target) I just said NO MORE. I kicked him out of my parent's house, where we were staying during a major renovation of our house, and told him it was a temporary separation and that my only requirement was that he leave me alone while I thought things through. I didn't know about BPD at the time, but in classic fashion he pulled out all the stops to try to "win" me back: long, nauseating e-mails, therapy, sudden interest in church-going, getting the kids to beg me to take him back. It all pushed me further away. The true final straw was his turning to my d11 (then 10) for emotional support. I phoned him, he begged to see me, and I went to his parents and BLASTED him, asked for a divorce and left.

I was finally able to set boundaries and truly have not wanted to get back together with him. Perhaps the relationship got way too toxic for me to want to ever go back. I am mostly NC - actually came up with that before I figured out BPD and found this site. I was just tired of the verbal abuse. Of course we are enmeshed in a battle over finances, so no divorce yet. We haven't even got to custody yet. He really was/is not an involved father -- as someone said earlier, he's happy to have me do all the work so he can show off his trophy children -- so I'm not sure if there will be any control grabs around custody.

Like you, Momtara, if someone had told me 3 years ago that I would be a single mom about to be divorced, I wouldn't have believed them. I believed in marriage, in working things out and going the extra mile. I held onto the dream as long as possible. The nice, charming side of the ex was my dream guy after all, but now all I can see is the lying, abusive, deceiving and controlling side. I guess I'm splitting, but I feel like I have had to, in order to save my own sanity.

Well, seems like you got to the end of your rope.  Your kids are still relatively young.  Hopefully he won't fight you for custody.  These folks tend to change, when cornered, and can use custody to keep you involved in their lives, or for revenge.  Is he still begging you to come back, or is he dating?

I think he's given up on me. He tried for several months, but I was pretty strict about NC, told him I would delete e-mails, destroy letters, etc. He was only allowed to text about arrangements for kids. He did tell a family friend that once I'd made up my mind, that was it. I just waffled for WAY to long. I guess selling our marital home and buying my own house was a pretty good indication that I was serious. Many people recognized that he saw others as all good or all bad -- no gray. I guess I'm in the all black. The things he says to the kids about me indicate that.

I was surprised that he didn't get together with someone sooner, considering how many times he told me he could replace me with someone better (usually the day after he told me that I was wonderful and he couldn't live without me). He was seen with someone else last week. My therapist asked me how that made me feel and I told her that truly I just feel sorry for the next victim, and I hope she's nice to my kids.

oh wow, my uAS/N/BPD baby daddy did this EXACTLY.  We verbally agreed on all sorts of things early on in our parenting days that he did a 180 degree spin on after we split.  He took me to court many times over the past 15 years.  I'm so over legally co-parenting with him. 

Hoping for the best but expecting the worst. The big thing in my favour is that he's incredibly concerned about saving face -- probably both a part of his narcissism and his cultural heritage (Chinese). He is a medical professional in our small city (32000 people) and I've already threatened to make public the fact that I was a client at the local women's shelter for a year. He is always so concerned about his reputation/paranoid about failing that I feel I have an effective tool to use for the custody battle.

starshine, so was he ever successful?

The narcissistic part seems to make a difference -- not necessarily better or worse, but like you say, it's possible to use it to your advantage. Or maybe it's more that it's such a big Achilles heel for them, they can't see how damaging their tactics are to them. N/BPDx ended up representing himself (he's an attorney), and he was so narcissist it worked in my favor (not by anything I did, exactly). He can't see how disordered he is because he's too busy being the big lawyer, and there's no one there to check his thinking. The bad part is that he keeps losing, but it doesn't seem to matter, because being on stage is part of what he wants, win or lose. 

I agree. So many times when we were out I would say something that "made him look bad" and when we got home I would be shocked that he was so upset with me over something I thought was an innocuous comment, and half the time didn't even remember saying (I think his memories of these comments were quite different than mine). This is part of his paranoid tendency and I know I can use that against him. Also, although he's very smart he isn't all that well spoken (Dr, not lawyer) and often his illogic is exposed when emotionally triggered, so I'm thinking that he'll avoid going to court at all costs. Fingers crossed.

We got a lot accomplished without going to court, but ended up there anyway. 

Better to budget for it if you can. After my first stretch of legal bills (mediation, deposition), my L told me to create an account each month for legal bills because she thought it was likely he was going to be a problem for me. And she was right. I think I saved for about 5 months, and then he had his first big paranoid psychotic break, which put us back in court.

It's always something, it seems.

Good to know - thanks Livednlearned. I think he has FINALLY signed the financial settlement - I meet with my L on Tuesday. After 1.5 years, that will be a relief. I am getting some money out of it -- of course, not half of the value of what he's getting in property, but I just got so tired of fighting for it. I'll be setting some of that money aside for legal costs. So much for retirement savings!

I hope things go well for you, fingers crossed. What I learned is that N/BPDx is not only high-conflict, he is disordered. His thinking is broken. So following through on the things he agreed to was a problem. That's where the last round of legal battles has been -- getting him to stick to the court agreement.

I think that's not unusual for lots of people here. I don't fully understand it, but it seems like pwBPD see each new interaction as though it is not connected to past decisions and behavior. Or maybe it triggers the same raging feelings each time it comes up, so it has to be resolved over and over and over again. I dunno.

N/BPDx lost in court. So he tried introducing stuff using a new hearing. Lost that hearing too. Judge told him to pay my legal bills. N/BPDx wouldn't do what the judge ordered him to do in another hearing. I took him to court. He lost that too. Judge told him to pay my legal  bills.

N/BPDx just keeps losing, judge keeps ordering him to pay my legal bills. He has lost 4 times in a row. On Monday, he gets served with an Order of Sanctions for not paying my legal bills.

You would think he might see the pattern, and see how this isn't working out for him. But he doesn't... .

So the narcissism helped me win in court, but the BPD makes it so that I have to keep paying legal bills to do the winning.

Which is just losing. 

I hope it goes well on Monday and you get your money back sometime soon. Ugh, how stressful.

Yes.  He kept me from leaving the state the first time.  He got 50%50 custody the next time.  Got them out of private school and into public the next.  Vaccines came next.  I lose track after that.  Then just came the threats to take me to court.  He terrorized me.  He is very handsome, charming, funny, well spoken.  Also a complete bully a-hole.  I live in a socially conservative part of my state, and he smartly used the lifestyle we lived in together against me when I left him.  He cut his hair, had a bankrolled lawyer, and "became" conservative.  There's a lot of blaming and shaming in the courts- the single mom syndrome that happens when you're "poor".

Just wondering: In your experience, if BPDex finds a new r/s does it change how he interacts with you? For better or worse, or status quo?

If you are asking me, I will tell you my experience.  My ex told me he never intended to be a single dad, and he went out and got a new girlfriend.  He made sure she wasn't going to be my friend by making it clear that we were not supposed to speak with each other when he was not around.  Then he went on and married her, and continued to defame my character to her. She supported him in all his shenanigans taking me to court.  It gave him a lot of power, along with the lawyer- she was a bulldog.  And the courts favored the married couple repeatedly taking the single mom to court.  He looked great on paper. Although I will say he never won full custody from the court.  Eventually both of my children chose to live at their father's house, even though they complain about the dysfunction.   In the end D19 joined the military rather than stay living with her dad and step mom.  S18 is hoping to go away to college.

That's a shame.  Why did the kids choose to live with him?  Unfortunately, a manipulative person is going to manipulate the kids. 

I always think of how my brother and I said we wanted to live with my mom when my parents split up.  My mom was bipolar and never cleaned the house and had us living in cars, and used to take my brother to unnecessary doctors' appointments.  We were never in any real danger, but my dad was a more stable parent. Yet, my mom was emotionally needy and we knew that my dad could take being apart from us, while my mom couldn't.  So we generally sided with her.

I guess that is a danger of divorcing these folks, that they will just manipulate the kids. 

My experience with the ex is that he still thinks he is at war with me, even after all this time. Our sons say to this day he is still obsessed and on a smear campaign trying to convince whoever will listen that I did and said everything that he actually did.

Everyone knew I left because he got dangerously crazy. The fact that he is in another relationship makes no difference. The fact that I gave up everything to get away from him makes no difference. The fact that he 'won' our house and money makes no difference (everything being a competition in the minds of BPDs).

I wonder if him feeling guilty about the past keeps him stuck on our divorce? Do they ruminate and obsess about it forever? More likely its because I exposed him for what he is at the end, that I told everyone everything that was happening in our marriage and he is still trying to alter everyone's memories. 

probably. look at it from his point of view.  he has an illness and it embarrasses him to be wrong or to feel powerless. 

My kids are 18 and 22. Neither have contact with their"father", my ustbxBPDh. They have even both started referring to him with his name, not dad.

One of the worst things he ever did was... telling friends at dinner, while the then d16 was sitting across the table... you birthed your children, so you have to take care of them for life, but since we adopted, we're only bound by law until they are 18. WHAT.? We adopted these kids at birth which is neither here or there. I kicked him under the table for all I was worth because I knew where he was going, he'd said it in private to me plenty of times. Later, he accused me of abuse because I had bruised his leg (there was no bruise I could see, other than in our daughters heart).

I am ending a 34 year marriage of this madness. I guess my purpose in waiting this long was to get my kids to adulthood so they didn't have to suffer at his hands without me being there to be the buffer.

And apparently it's worked because his last communication with me (last week) TOLD me to tell the children he would wait to hear from them. I didn't tell them, I'm not his go-between anymore and I told him that. I think he'll be waiting forever to hear from them.

Children are resilient, I hope. D18 is in counseling, s22 won't go. S is gay, which caused a whole lot of other bad reaction from ustbxBPDh when he came out at 14. It's hard to describe how strong this young man is, even with a great deal of self esteem issues.

So, I live each day as I think God would have me live. I try to be a light to my kids, working to morph our relationships to parent-friend. And being successful as they make good adult decisions for themselves.

I'm beginning to see that there can be healing on the other side, but it is taking a great deal of constant effort. We have much to heal from. I am just blessed that they both stick to me. In a way, we are a new family, making new great memories that I hope one day outshine the old bad ones.

Wow, this is where I was at 2 years ago. And I can't say things have gotten much better. Surprisingly, my ex never moved far away and still stays in the kids' lives. He sees them every other weekend. I get scared he could hurt them or himself on purpose and there have been periods when he's been VERY angry at me, and periods where he has seemed fine. I regret not getting a psych eval from the beginning, but lawyers said it might not make a diff. I just didn't know back then all the things I know now.

My ex still wants me back and tries to get together, which makes me nervous because I'm not always sure how to answer. But I have maintained my boundaries and still been kind.

Haven't been able to date yet and a lot of men my age seem creepy or just entitled. Although I would like to have a normal loving relationship someday, whatever that is.

I wish I could say I'm happier now. I still think I did the right thing. Ex still opposes doctors' visits and such for the kids. His suspicious, angry mind is still there. He is still getting counseling. He is great for the kids in small doses. There is still a part of me who thinks if I'd taken him back and he'd stayed in counseling, he might have improved - but I don't know that he would have changed enough for us to be able to coexist peacefully all while making good decisions etc.  Even though I had to divorce him, it's hard to be alone. Not just taking care of the kids alone, just in general. Most people I know have more support than I do. I am making the best of it, though. I keep my boundaries and have gotten us a parenting coordinator (over his objections) and I keep busy with projects and try to keep the kids happy. They seem pretty happy and wonderful, so that's what matters.