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Relationship Partner with BPD (Straight and LGBT+) => Romantic Relationship | Bettering a Relationship or Reversing a Breakup => Topic started by: murph33 on May 16, 2013, 09:25:13 AM



Title: Secrets, lies and devious behavior
Post by: murph33 on May 16, 2013, 09:25:13 AM
How do you address a BPD (my husband) who lies about so much, has multiple Facebook accounts he thinks I don't know about and the one I do know about he blocks off his list of friends so I can no longer see who hes in contact with. He has a history of porn addiction and calling chatline,s possibly affairs. How do I approach him on this, what would a boundary on this look like. Normally when I do address him no matter how well I put it its a trigger and he rages. We are married for 6 years and he keeps everything from me such as bank accounts, debts etc. I don't trust him at all (why would I) but I do need to know how to bring this up and set a boundary? If I'm expected to be all open and above board then he needs to have that standard also whether BPD or not, that's my opinion. I have not tolerated it in the past but led to Hugh arguments, whats healthy when your dealing with a person with mental issues? what would a conversation look like with this issue in mind?


Title: Re: Secrets, lies and devious behavior
Post by: House of Mirrors on May 16, 2013, 09:33:20 AM
Can I just say I don't have the answer to this but relate to the whole 'sex addiction' thing which has caused major problems in our relationship. He has a history of talking to other women online and who knows what else?

I just also wondered how common this is and how it can be dealt with. Especially when the person in question will lie, lie and lie again about this behaviour and appear very plausable and rational about it - explaining it away, gaslighting, lying to your face etc. etc. And when confronted of course the RAGE and tell you how dare you SPY on them - like you are to blame!

It destroys trust and they know this yet they still do it. We have to be perfect and trustworthy but they can do what they want with whom they want and IT IS NOT OK!

I feel your pain Murph 33.


Title: Re: Secrets, lies and devious behavior
Post by: murph33 on May 16, 2013, 09:53:31 AM
Thank you for your response HoM, these are all very good questions and issues that are going on since I discovered his "other life style", the laughable thing is he says HE doesn't trust me (which I know now is typical behavior for BPD) and wants to build trust into our marriage. I have a feeling this is very common behavior. Obviously boundaries are necessary for sure but my question is how to present it to them when you know the usual carry on that normally follows. They don't like any attention on them like this and normally projects it right back onto me. Will be interested to hear responses on this.


Title: Re: Secrets, lies and devious behavior
Post by: almost789 on May 16, 2013, 02:04:28 PM
Hi

I can relate to this. Sex addiction (porn addiction) is sometimes common in BPD people. Lying is as well. My friend with BPD has both of these issues. I don't mean to be pessimistic just truthful. I'll just say that in my experience if these are the types of acting out behaviors your pwBPD has they don't change when you make them a boundary for you. Whatever form of acting out an untreated dysregulated BPD has is usually beyond their control. It is part of their illness, it doesn't go away because you get tough on them and make it a boundary for you. Just like any addiction it doesn't stop because loved ones' state things like " i will not be in a relationship with someone who has a porn addiction" When you set that boundary, you must realize that their behavior will likely not stop. You then have to make the choice, will you live with this, or will you leave if that is you boundary. If your not ready for that, then the boundary will only create more stress for both you and the person with BPD. The better results come from the person with BPD undergoing treatment for their BPD if they are willing.   

Yes, they do have a double standard too. They want you to be all that perfect but they can't manage it themselves.


Title: Re: Secrets, lies and devious behavior
Post by: murph33 on May 16, 2013, 08:52:24 PM
Hi summer,

Thanks for your response. My question is why bother with boundaries if there not going to make a difference, be respected and honored. So what your basically saying is that unless the person with BPD is in therapy there's no point! Ive had alcoholics in my family and I did set boundaries, no it didn't stop them drinking but however it did protect me in the sense if they were rude or disrespectful I removed myself from the firing line and left the room for example. Boundaries are there to protect the person who is establishing the boundary.The addicts in my family never did recover but I was able to still have a decent enough relationship with them because I was in al-anon learning how to deal with it. I like to look for the hope in every situation and like to feel I have options or alternatives to what would be a very dismal dilemma without them.


Title: Re: Secrets, lies and devious behavior
Post by: murph33 on May 16, 2013, 08:55:21 PM
I thought this subject would be typical BPD behavior that would bring more responses in terms of gaining clarity and direction. I'm surprised that there is not and I'm wondering why?


Title: Re: Secrets, lies and deceptive behavior
Post by: martillo on May 16, 2013, 10:30:42 PM
I deal with similar issues although I pay the bills and manage the bank account.  I don't have any good answers.  I would just make sure you have some accounts of your own so you are not dependent on H.  As far as the lies, if I call my H out he can talk faster and put such a spin on things that I end up feeling like it is my fault.  We have been married almost 21 years and I am reaching a point where I am ready to live in truth, so not sure what that will look like.



Title: Re: Secrets, lies and deceptive behavior
Post by: murph33 on May 16, 2013, 11:01:33 PM
Hi Martillo,

It seems to be common behavior for the BPD. Yes when I confront about the lies he normally tries to project it onto me well now I'm the liar, or gets so angry and just walks out. It's tirsome really, it's so far from normal, how do people put up with or live with a BPD who is not in recovery. A big part of me thinks this is so not what I signed up for when I got married and I fell duped into a marriage that shortly after we moved in together turned into a living nightmare!


Title: Re: Secrets, lies and deceptive behavior
Post by: waverider on May 17, 2013, 05:17:48 AM
A lifetime of covering up unacceptable behavior means this is their ingrained normality. It is their nature to naturally slip into it. If the RS is managed so nothing much phases you, or gets you offside that will lesson it. But it will always be there ready to put to use if they feel the need to, or sometimes like an old habit they cant kick.

It can be their comfort blanket. They dont want people to know everything about them, so even harmless trivial stuff is hidden, just for comforts sake.

I choose neither to believe nor disbelieve, treating everything as interesting and take it on face value, but would never make any important decisions based on what they say or do to be the absolute truth. Too much suspicion can make you sick


Title: Re: Secrets, lies and devious behavior
Post by: almost789 on May 17, 2013, 05:26:30 AM
Hi Murph,

Exactly, it's not a boundary if you make the boundary, it is not respected or honored and then you continue in the relationship. That is not a boundary. A boundary is that you decide what your limits (boundaries) are and if they are not respected or honered you follow through with your action. I believe in boundaries, I have lots of them. I'm just saying that you have to be realistic. I don't know what type of boundaries you want to make. Transparency in the finances would be a good one, but thats your personal choice. But requesting an addict to stop their addiction without any treatment is unrealistic. Now, asking them to stop their addiction or you leave is fine if that's what you want. But be ready to enforce that boundary if he doesn't stop. Are you ready to end the relationship? Because again, addicts don't stop their behavior because of your boundary. Sex addiction is extremely difficult situation, but has it's roots in the underlying issues in many cases BPD. I guess what I am saying is that YOU have to determine your boudaries. What are they? Once you determine what they are then you can better decide how to approach it.


Title: Re: Secrets, lies and deceptive behavior
Post by: House of Mirrors on May 17, 2013, 05:54:57 AM
Hi

I replied to Murph on the other thread as I too am interested in this.

I do find the secrecy really hard to deal with, as I do the lies to my face and the incredible anger if 'accused' of something he allegedly is not doing (but I have evidence of SOME of what he is doing that I don't want to confront him with).

How does one deal with this - especially when what they are doing behind you back is betrayal - they would never wear it if you did it to them! The old BPD double standard.

I am only 'dealing' with this right now by knowing I am not strong enough yet to deal with the consequences if I confront it head on. In some ways, it is just another part of BPD I guess and if they are not prepared to confront, acknowledge, accept or work with it then is there any point in singling out this behaviour just because it hurts us a lot and we therefore can't trust them?


HoM


Title: Re: Secrets, lies and deceptive behavior
Post by: waverider on May 17, 2013, 08:27:23 AM
Hi

I replied to Murph on the other thread as I too am interested in this.

I do find the secrecy really hard to deal with, as I do the lies to my face and the incredible anger if 'accused' of something he allegedly is not doing (but I have evidence of SOME of what he is doing that I don't want to confront him with).

How does one deal with this - especially when what they are doing behind you back is betrayal - they would never wear it if you did it to them! The old BPD double standard.

I am only 'dealing' with this right now by knowing I am not strong enough yet to deal with the consequences if I confront it head on. In some ways, it is just another part of BPD I guess and if they are not prepared to confront, acknowledge, accept or work with it then is there any point in singling out this behaviour just because it hurts us a lot and we therefore can't trust them?


HoM

Confrontation achieves little except escalation.

For serious issues you use boundaries with actions you can enforce.

The hardest thing to come to terms with is the endless little issues, each in themselves not major, but the general pattern of them is hard to accept. Until you can really come to terms with this as a real Disorder, it is very difficult get your head around it.


Title: Re: Secrets, lies and devious behavior
Post by: House of Mirrors on May 17, 2013, 10:24:47 AM
Hi

Thanks. I know that confrontation is not a good idea! Plenty of experience in that not working and it usually leads to denial and blame anyway!

You said 'For serious issues you use boundaries with actions you can enforce' can you please guide me on this or point me to a part of the boards that can help?

I have ordered some books today from Amazon that I hope will help. It is very early days in my clarity about codependent / BPD relationships and stepping out from the confusion. All help gratefully received.

Thanks,

HoM


Title: Re: Secrets, lies and devious behavior
Post by: waverider on May 17, 2013, 10:34:33 AM
Hi

Thanks. I know that confrontation is not a good idea! Plenty of experience in that not working and it usually leads to denial and blame anyway!

You said 'For serious issues you use boundaries with actions you can enforce' can you please guide me on this or point me to a part of the boards that can help?

I have ordered some books today from Amazon that I hope will help. It is very early days in my clarity about codependent / BPD relationships and stepping out from the confusion. All help gratefully received.

Thanks,

HoM

a workshop on boundaries can be found here:

BOUNDARIES - Living our values (https://bpdfamily.com/content/values-and-boundaries)


Title: Re: Secrets, lies and devious behavior
Post by: arabella on May 17, 2013, 10:57:58 AM
I thought this subject would be typical BPD behavior that would bring more responses in terms of gaining clarity and direction. I'm surprised that there is not and I'm wondering why?

I think the issue is that there just isn't much else to say. SummerT321 summed up the boundaries question pretty succinctly:

Exactly, it's not a boundary if you make the boundary, it is not respected or honored and then you continue in the relationship. That is not a boundary. A boundary is that you decide what your limits (boundaries) are and if they are not respected or honered you follow through with your action.

***

I guess what I am saying is that YOU have to determine your boudaries. What are they? Once you determine what they are then you can better decide how to approach it.

I might just add that a shift to radical acceptance is also necessary if you want to continue in your r/s. Your H is not going to change just because you want him to. So you have to accept that he has addictions. He lies (also a sort of addiction for a pwBPD). He's devious and keeps secrets. You can lessen the impact on you, but you can't force a change in the actual behaviour. You can learn to react in ways that are less threatening to your H, which may cause him to lie less frequently, but that's about it.

Here's an example of a boundary I set: I will not trust someone who lies with my finances. My H lies. I do not trust him with my finances any longer. I enforce this by setting up my own bank accounts that he does not have access to and I make sure that I have funds available in those accounts at all times in case I need them. I transfer amounts from our joint account to my personal account on occasion to ensure that my financial needs are taken care of.


Title: Re: Secrets, lies and devious behavior
Post by: waverider on May 17, 2013, 11:17:40 AM
Here's an example of a boundary I set: I will not trust someone who lies with my finances. My H lies. I do not trust him with my finances any longer. I enforce this by setting up my own bank accounts that he does not have access to and I make sure that I have funds available in those accounts at all times in case I need them. I transfer amounts from our joint account to my personal account on occasion to ensure that my financial needs are taken care of.

That is a good example of a relationship management boundary. As opposed to this is my boundary>>I'm leaving. It is a definite action and the action is self explanatory, non negotiable. The affect of the transgression is halted without demanding any compliance, it is totally in your control to remove the negative influence.

trying to apply too many boundaries is likely to start all out war, so pick them carefully


Title: Re: Secrets, lies and devious behavior
Post by: House of Mirrors on May 20, 2013, 03:57:19 AM
Thanks for pointing me to the boundaries workshop. I will take a look at that.

Some interesting points about trying to manage / cope with their lies and deceit. I suppose the hard thing that both Murph and I are in the dark about is the extent of any sex addiction i.e. is it solely non-contact or has there ever been contact with others during our relationships. The hard thing is that as a non BPD I have no need to lie or deceive and will answer questions honestly whereas he does not do this all the time - so it is hard to know when you have been lied to! He will look me straight in the eye and lie. I hate lies... .  

I hear you on boundaries too, I told him 3.5 years ago that if I found him on dubious adult chat sites again then our relationship would be over. It is easier said than done as I recently found emails indicating he was on a site of this type and chose not to confront him (at the time I did not know for sure he had BPD but now even though it is not diagnosed it is clear he does). I therefore understand at least what is behind this behaviour now whereas for a long time I had no idea WHY. I do wonder as to the full extent of his lies but to be honest we are together most of the time. I also wonder whether he engages partly in this behaviour to make me suspicious and so that with a lack of trust in our relationship on my part  I don't leave him alone often... .  ?

So I guess while I try and assess things and my feelings and whether I want to stay knowing all that I know I won't confront that issue (even though it hurts me) as it is just a symptom of the root cause and I guess I have to see it as just that. I would also be very surprised if actual physical contact were taking place.

I will read up about boundaries though - I think it would be very good for me as a codependent anyway, regardless of my issues with him.

Thanks,

HoM


Title: Re: Secrets, lies and devious behavior
Post by: House of Mirrors on May 20, 2013, 04:09:41 AM
Waverider,

I just tried your link for the Boundaries info but it led to an old post on the site from somebody. Can you tell me where I can find the information?

Many thanks,

HoM


Title: Re: Secrets, lies and devious behavior
Post by: waverider on May 20, 2013, 04:22:02 AM
Waverider,

I just tried your link for the Boundaries info but it led to an old post on the site from somebody. Can you tell me where I can find the information?

Many thanks,

HoM

Sorry error in link, now fixed.

Keep in mind with boundaries they are not about right or wrong, or what is fair. They are about preserving your environment from what YOU cannot live with. This is why they go hand in hand with acceptance so that you are realistic about what your core issues are.  You cant force someone to be normal by putting boundaries around everything


Title: Re: Secrets, lies and devious behavior
Post by: cal644 on May 20, 2013, 06:21:01 AM
My stbex would lie about everything in the end and when the truth would come out I would get "I never once lied to you".  Asked if she was having an affair - your crazy! So we were talking about a seperation before I found out she was - so for the first time ever I looked at the cell bill online to see what her portion would be - low and behold she had 5,000 texts a month.  Confronted her - it was just a friend - pressed deeper it was a guy she met at school (lie).  Latter confronted about the time it started asked if it was this guy from the wedding she was in (your crazy - I told you it was a guy at school (lie).  Finally did a reverse cell search had guys name - confronted her with the name (that's my attorney -lie). Found out it was the guy from the wedding when I dug deeper (lie).  She told me it was only texting he wasn't on facebook which she started being all the time (lie - she just had him block me so I couldn't see him) also anytime she was doing "homework" at our house - I would walk in the room and she would switch off her FB page - and say I still need to figure this same question out 45 minutes latter.  Confronted her about why she started sleeping upstairs so she could text him "I never texted him at night" (lie) I had the cell records by now. Oh and BTW - I got chewed out for looking at the cell bill - which was an accident! Then I get you never trust me or beleive me I told you were only friends - hmmmm wonder why I don't!  Then I got to thinking about last year when she would have to go "study with a girlfriend at school" - I always said why don't you goto her house or have her come here "It's quiter at school" - I always thought it was odd on the days they had class one would pick up the other but on study night they never carpooled (really want to ask her friend - which is a real friend she has know for years) - if they did goto study?  Or was this a new person she had before this other "white knight". Oh one last thing - at the wedding they met I went to get a drink and came back he was rubbing all over her - her responce was "YOUR CRAZY!".  I'm also wondering now about the times she went to see her cousin from the same town he was in and she wouldn't have her cell phone or a signal? Funny - her cousin was always able to get a signal and so was her "friend".  Lie, Lie, Lie!


Title: Re: Secrets, lies and devious behavior
Post by: allibaba on May 20, 2013, 06:51:48 AM
Excerpt
He has a history of porn addiction and calling chatline,s possibly affairs. How do I approach him on this, what would a boundary on this look like. Normally when I do address him no matter how well I put it its a trigger and he rages.

I don't think that upfront conversations about boundaries work in our house.  I just have to determine in my own head what a boundary will be and implement.  I implement when I can't tolerate a situation any more.  I found that upfront boundaries trigger him into a rage and then he sees them as rules that can be broken. 

My husband does have a sexual/ porn addiction.  He said that it provides comfort to him.  Fortunately for me his sexual addiction is contained within the 4 walls of this house so I don't really worry about affairs etc.  I have basically figured out what is acceptable to me (porn is ok.  other partners are not.)  The guideline that a senior member of this forum gave me on boundaries is that if you are going to leave if they do X, then make sure that your significant other knows up front.  Otherwise it is ok to enforce boundaries in the moment. 

There are very few things that would be relationship deal breakers for me 1. an affair 2. hard drugs (cocaine, heroine)... .  not that we have ever had those issues but I wanted him to know up front that his downward spiral better not include 1 or 2 or I'm done.

If he started spending all his time on websites/ watching porn I would say something.

"I'm not ok with you spending all this time on these sites and not spending time with me.  If you do start spending the day doing that, I am going out and I'll see you this afternoon."   


Title: Re: Secrets, lies and devious behavior
Post by: waverider on May 20, 2013, 06:58:17 AM
My stbex would lie about everything in the end and when the truth would come out I would get "I never once lied to you".  Asked if she was having an affair - your crazy! So we were talking about a seperation before I found out she was - so for the first time ever I looked at the cell bill online to see what her portion would be - low and behold she had 5,000 texts a month.  Confronted her - it was just a friend - pressed deeper it was a guy she met at school (lie).  Latter confronted about the time it started asked if it was this guy from the wedding she was in (your crazy - I told you it was a guy at school (lie).  Finally did a reverse cell search had guys name - confronted her with the name (that's my attorney -lie). Found out it was the guy from the wedding when I dug deeper (lie).  She told me it was only texting he wasn't on facebook which she started being all the time (lie - she just had him block me so I couldn't see him) also anytime she was doing "homework" at our house - I would walk in the room and she would switch off her FB page - and say I still need to figure this same question out 45 minutes latter.  Confronted her about why she started sleeping upstairs so she could text him "I never texted him at night" (lie) I had the cell records by now. Oh and BTW - I got chewed out for looking at the cell bill - which was an accident! Then I get you never trust me or beleive me I told you were only friends - hmmmm wonder why I don't!  Then I got to thinking about last year when she would have to go "study with a girlfriend at school" - I always said why don't you goto her house or have her come here "It's quiter at school" - I always thought it was odd on the days they had class one would pick up the other but on study night they never carpooled (really want to ask her friend - which is a real friend she has know for years) - if they did goto study?  Or was this a new person she had before this other "white knight". Oh one last thing - at the wedding they met I went to get a drink and came back he was rubbing all over her - her responce was "YOUR CRAZY!".  I'm also wondering now about the times she went to see her cousin from the same town he was in and she wouldn't have her cell phone or a signal? Funny - her cousin was always able to get a signal and so was her "friend".  Lie, Lie, Lie!

Sorry to hear you went through this. It is a good example of why you need boundaries. They excuses will keep piling up, no matter how unbelievable, the goal post keep shifting until you say no. You dont need the facts or proof of anything. As I said earlier it is not about whether you are right or wrong, or even if being fair. If the behavior is chewing you up you put up a boundary, say no more. Then you remove yourself from the environment.

Confrontation usually resolves nothing, denial is everything (fight or flight response), resolution is not on the agenda.

By the way boundaries dont need discussion and agreement, helps if this is possible, but it isn't always. These are you boundaries, you action, and not negotiable if you have chosen them wisely


Title: Re: Secrets, lies and devious behavior
Post by: House of Mirrors on May 20, 2013, 07:00:49 AM
Thanks for the right link  :)

I scanned it and already feel slightly overwhelmed when it comes to boundaries! Quite a difficult one for a codependent like me. I guess living in a family when I was young that was very pro accepting the status quo and agreeing with / doing whatever my Dad wanted set the stage for that! Still, it is never too late to learn!  :)

I will discuss this area with my counsellor to see what insights she has but any help in this area and how to approach it gratefully received.

The thing that foxes me is about how to reconcile my values (truth, clarity) when in a relationship with someone who lies and is devious (albeit under the surface, he would say he is truthful  lol)! Any help here? I start to feel confused as I am being compromised by my partner's values in relation to mine. Should I just do the values exercise in relation to me and then if there are dissonances raised by my relationship deal with those separately? How do I then sort the boundaries out if there is a values clash?

Thanks again for taking the time to answer my endless questions!


HoM


Title: Re: Secrets, lies and devious behavior
Post by: arabella on May 20, 2013, 09:47:59 AM
I had someone tell me that codependency was, at its roots, just a lack of boundaries. That made a lot of sense to me. It also explains why us CDs get so overwhelmed trying to learn to set boundaries with our pwBPD! No worries though - you can catch two birds in one net here! :)

Boundaries are based on your values. They have nothing to do with your partner's values. Don't start thinking about him when you're trying to take care of you! See how that CD sneaks itself in there? lol

You don't have to reconcile your values with his. Truth is important to you = you should always tell the truth. It's important to be told the truth? Well then you have two choices: (a) leave if he continues to lie because you refuse to be in r/s with someone who lies to you (understandable); or (b) decide that his lying is his 'stuff' and only he's responsible for what comes out of his mouth - you've done nothing wrong so just ignore him and take everything he says with a grain of salt (or a pile).

My previous example, re finances, was one of my boundary for dealing with lies. Truth is important. I'm not a liar. I don't trust liars (go figure). Therefore I do not trust my H with our money. Therefore I will put money into an account he can't access to protect myself. Another one: I will not refrain from asking questions or requiring proof from a liar. I used to feel bad if I started asking too many questions, sometimes I'd cut myself off or talk myself out of asking for proof if my H got upset. No more. If he is going to lie to me, I am not going to budge on my demands for more information and he'll just have to learn to live with that. He doesn't have to answer me but he knows that I will then assume he is lying. Boundary: I will not believe a liar unless I have proof and I will ask for that proof if I want to.

Hope something in there was helpful to you! Keep asking questions! :)


Title: Re: Secrets, lies and devious behavior
Post by: almost789 on May 20, 2013, 10:10:02 AM
Thank Arabella, good post. I was trying to figure this out myself in how to anwser. The truth is some BPD's have a problem with chronic lying. If truth is important to you (as it is to me) you have only two choices with this. You can either accept that the chronic lying is part of the disorder and stay in the relationship anyway. Or decide that you don't want to be in a relationship with someone who tells lies frequently and often for no reason. I think people get confused because they think that if they somehow when they set their boundry it will somehow effect the lying or whatever problem is. Not with BPD. You really have to radically accept, or not accept. The behaviors don't stop with boundry setting in a BPD relationship. However, maybe part of the confusion lies in that we try to apply what would happen in a normal relationship, by setting a boundary to BPD people and it doesn't. For instance, with a person who doesn't have BPD you may be able to say. I won't accept you lies anymore. I can't be in a relationship with someone who lies to me frequently. Regulgar person, could probably stop lying to you. BPD's have much less control over their behaviors.


Title: Re: Secrets, lies and devious behavior
Post by: House of Mirrors on May 20, 2013, 10:15:42 AM
Thanks again Arabella,

Yes it sure can sneak up on us and usually does!  lol

Wow - if I asked my SO for 'proof' or acted like I disbelieved him then it would just trigger rage! I hinted at something (for that read 'accused him' in his perception) last week and he went right off the deep end. I think it is because he feels that a violent denial = me thinking he is telling the truth when in fact it is often the opposite! What he was not aware of is that I had proof of sorts that I was unwilling to disclose. He even said if I had proof I should let him see it! So convinced was he of his innocence (BS?) / the fact I hadn't bothered to check on him... .  

It is a tough one as I don't like being lied to which means that as it seems he is still lying to me about things that I consider dealbrekers, I have nowhere to go with this unless I choose to ignore it or leave. At present, I am choosing to not deal with it directly as I am busy dealing with bigger things but that one lying, cheating behaviour upsets me the most.  

I will work on my values though in the meantime and ignore how that relates to him or the relationship!


Cheers  

HoM


Title: Re: Secrets, lies and devious behavior
Post by: House of Mirrors on May 20, 2013, 10:20:29 AM
Thanks again Summer,

I think I am currently somewhere in the middle of those 2 choices!

Honestly, sometimes I feel like my head is just spinning with all this stuff... .  so much to take in... .  yet day to day on the surface my relationship is actually a lot better than it has been in a long time. Weird!

HoM


Title: Re: Secrets, lies and devious behavior
Post by: arabella on May 20, 2013, 10:28:16 AM
Yup, my H gets really pissed off when I ask for proof or tell him I don't believe him. He doesn't 'rage' really, so I'm not afraid of him or anything, which is what makes my boundary possible. Actually, I have another boundary - I will not stay in a r/s with someone I am afraid of. Back to the lying and confrontation... .  Mostly I don't confront his lies because I don't care. Most issues aren't important and it doesn't matter to me. If it's something important my boundary goes into effect. He can be as pissed off as he likes - I don't care. I simply told him, 'look, I don't trust you, you're going to have to accept that.' If he has a boundary that cause him to leave me for that, well, not much I can do about it. So far so good. Mostly it ends with him not being willing to prove anything (because he's lying), him being 'offended', and me just shrugging and saying 'fine, then I'll believe what I want.'

If you have a dealbreaker issue, don't confront him unless you are willing to enforce the boundary. Figure it all out ahead of time. If you confront him and then don't leave, all you've done is reinforce his bad behaviour - it will be that much harder to enforce the boundary later (around here it's call "intermittent reinforcement" of a boundary).

You sound like you're on the right path - don't worry, it gets easier! |iiii


Title: Re: Secrets, lies and devious behavior
Post by: House of Mirrors on May 22, 2013, 08:51:41 AM
Hi again,

OK I am fighting with myself about this issue. As I said before, I have recent evidence that he is still on adult chat sites that I have not chosen to reveal to him as I have other things I am focussing on right now. As far as he knows I am in blissful ignorance.

BUT last night something triggered me (maybe because I KNOW he is still doing these behaviours Vs. prior to that I THOUGHT he may have changed them so I lived in hope). He took his phone to the toilet with him. When I went up the stairs obviously I could see he was using it with his back to me. Maybe he didn't realise I had seen him purposely pick up his phone and take it out of the room with him... .

So anyway, I stood on the stairs and said something to the effect of "Why do you need to take your phone into the bathroom with you if you are not doing something you want to hide from me?"

He didn't rage, he just calmly put it in his pocket and mumbled something about he was just using his phone but wasn't doing anything (with no detail added) it was all a but shady to be honest. So I said, "I must be completely mad then huh?" and just walked off. He didn't talk about what had happened after. i  was annoyed but just went quiet.

It was all rather weird really but my FEELING was that he was up to something and I felt bad because I know he is up to things but it is all hidden. It is like having an elephant in the room. I want to confornt it and make it stop but I have no power over it unless I am willing to give an ultimatum that I follow through on. Right now I am not prepared to follow through.

I am not sure I know how to deal with this other than to ignore it and put it to the back of my mind which is not dealing with it. I am not sure how to enforce a boundary about it. Perviously I told him that if I found out he was doing it I would leave. He doesn't know that I know.

Can anyone help me here please? I am struggling... . and it really annoys the hell out of me and I have to suppress it which just makes me angry with him but unable to express it.

Thanks,

HoM


Title: Re: Secrets, lies and devious behavior
Post by: waverider on May 22, 2013, 04:56:18 PM
As boundaries are about you, you dont need proof of anything. It is not about having proof that he is doing something. It is about protecting yourself from an environment where you dont feel reassured that he is not doing something. It is the gut wrenching suspicion that you are erecting a boundary to protect yourself from.

What someone is or is not doing at the end of the day is not the problem. The problem is how the environment affect syou.

Otherwise you can get trapped in a circular argument and paranioa about proof and catching people out.

Boundaries/Codependency/ Lack of self confidence, these things are closely related. You cant overturn the world in a day. Slowly working on these things a bit at a time will effect each one of them, and support each other. You need to believe in your self to reinforce boundaries, shrug off codependency. Which reinforce self confidence.

I Like to call it it unwinding the spiral you have previously descended


Title: Re: Secrets, lies and devious behavior
Post by: arabella on May 23, 2013, 12:46:05 AM
HoM - I get the impression that you are looking for a boundary re the adult chat sites (or whatever else he's doing) that stops short of your leaving him. Is this correct? You are entitled to change your mind about your boundaries and your defence of them. Perhaps this behaviour is a problem for you but not quite a 'dealbreaker'? That's okay. But then you need to figure out a few things:

1. Can you live with the behaviour? If you absolutely can't, then it's going to be a dealbreaker, no way around that.

2. If you're not sure if you can live with it (i.e. whether it's a dealbreaker or not) then you need to examine your feeling surrounding the issue. How does his online behaviour impact your values? How is it affecting you? It it the effect of the behaviour that you ultimately are trying to protect yourself from with boundaries. For example, is the root problem that you don't feel your religious values are in synch? You fear his behaviour is leading to something else (and, if so, where? And why are you concerned about that)? You fear that you won't be able to cope on your own if he leaves the r/s? Something else?

3. Once you decide what it is about the behaviour that is really getting to you, you can start to think of appropriate boundaries to protect yourself.

So, to continue my previous example: I decided that I don't like being lied to. I don't like it because it usually means that the other person doesn't respect me enough to tell me the truth or that they think I'm sort of dim and I'll believe everything they tell me (I feel duped). Sounds like it could be a dealbreaker, right? A lot of that is just my own projection though - people lie for all kinds of reasons and, in the case of my dBPDh, he mostly lies for his own comfort and/or out of fear (i.e. really nothing to do with me). So, in principle, it's not so very bad. But the lying also means that I can't trust him. There is an unpredictability there that makes me very nervous. I can't live with uncertainty about my own basic needs being met in the future. I can take of myself so long as I have a bit of money to buffer any major life changes and give me time to reorganize. So, in order to meet my own needs and alleviate my own stress, I made sure that my H's lying and unpredictable actions wouldn't sabotage my personal security. I did this by opening a separate bank account. So, by figuring out that my root fear/upset was caused by feeling like my future could be jeopardized, I came up with the financial boundary that would make me feel better.


Title: Re: Secrets, lies and devious behavior
Post by: allibaba on May 23, 2013, 05:07:27 AM
Arabella,

That example was very helpful to me.  I don't have the same issue with financial security or the concern with adult chat sites but that was just a really helpful example of how you worked through an issue.



Title: Re: Secrets, lies and devious behavior
Post by: House of Mirrors on May 23, 2013, 06:20:44 AM
Hi,

Thanks again for your insights. I don’t know about you guys but I think maybe some of us have genuine blindspots when something really triggers us - I am feeling that with me right now. I feel so angry and deeply upset about this particular issue that it kind of ties me up in knots – maybe because I know deep down the fact that this is a dealbreaker for me yet I don’t want to lose my relationship.

I feel really, really angry that he engages in this behaviour, the fact that I don’t even know whether in the 12 years we have been together whether the physical boundaries have ever been crossed (i.e. him having contact with people). I am confused about the fact that he is so plausable and acts so normally and has the ability to tell me absolute lies and yet present them as the truth. When the hell does he even do this as he is either at work and really busy (which he is) or at home with me in the same room (most of the time)?

He KNOWS that him engaging in this activity and me finding out will destroy and end our relationship. I am just too weak right now to enforce that and I don’t want to end my relationship because on the surface of things right now he could not be nicer or kinder – after all the struggle things on the surface are actually easier. I hear all about compulsions and addictions being part of BPD and I hear that he may not be in ‘control’ as such but I refuse to accept that is really true. My view is that he is just getting away with what he can and totally disrespecting me.

I hate that he does this. I hate that I don’t know if he is being physically unfaithful, I hate that I can’t confront it. I hate that I know which site he has a profile with and I am too weak and scared to set up a profile and ‘trap’ him and then have the almighty, volcanic argument that will completely destroy my relationship and leave me alone with a lot of difficult choices to make about what to do with my home, finances, possessions etc.

It is easier for me to just try and rationalise and minimise what he is doing and tell myself it is just online and fulfils some stupid, pathetic childish need he has or validation he seeks. This makes me so unhappy this whole issue – hence I am struggling. It makes me feel so sad and like I am living in a big lie that he is making and sucking me into. I am sat here crying while typing this and yet today is our 12 year anniversary  :'(

Those feelings just make me feel powerless and like I can’t deal with this issue so I just focus on the day to day and the fact that we are getting on great and having fun together. Underneath that my trust is broken and my integrity to myself and my wants and needs is being sold out by me. Trust is key to me and I can’t trust a liar who lies time and time again.  He really is two people; one to my face and another behind my back when he thinks he is unseen and unheard…

What to do?

So glad I found you lovely people 

HoM



Title: Re: Secrets, lies and devious behavior
Post by: almost789 on May 23, 2013, 07:44:05 AM
House,

If you believe that he has addictions and compulsions then what is it that leads you to believe he does this just to disrespect you. They don't have addictions and compulsions because of you or to disrespect you. This is where your anger lies. You need to understand that the very nature of addiciton and compulsion is uncontrollable, otherwise it is not an addiction. It has nothing to do with you. If you can get that your anger will lessen. If you continue to believe that he does it just to disrespect your relationship you will constantly feel anger. I know, been there! I don't blame you for this being a deal breaker, it would be for me too if it was my primary relationship. My boundary would be treatment or no relationship. Perhaps you should read up on addictions and compulsions to  help you understand realistically what that means and stop thinking it is about you or that he can just stop for you, especially if you are saying you are not ready to end the relationship.


Title: Re: Secrets, lies and devious behavior
Post by: Peterpan on May 23, 2013, 08:43:23 AM
Waverider, can I reinforce your earlier post  :)

I have had two years now of this ridiculous cicle of back and forth crap from my kind of ex pwuBPD.

I have been through that feeling of wanting to catch him out, even though all my trouble started out as exactly that,,I cought him out!

I gave the benefit of the doubt, I listened to the pleas, watched the sobs, felt the stalking, all at the same time as not really trusting any of those actions.

Two years later, he is still in my life, although I take it all lightly and exactly for what it is. I love the person he 'professes to be' but I do know that person is not really there under his skin.

I have tried to live with it as it is, accept him fro who and what he is, it is very soul destroying!

He still contacts me by text, but yet keeps me at arms length, will talk on the phone, only if he feels an impending problem, otherwise it is me who has to ask him to talk.

We are not lovers,(we were lovers) but yet we are more than friends, and yes the only thing which stops me making any more a fool of myself is becasue I KNOW what he did, and if he could do that at the beginning of a new relationship and 'get away' with it, then surely he willl do it again yes?

I am stuck at this and have been for the last eighteen months, trying to trust and believe, feeling sorry for his undiagnosed disorder of insecurity. I find myself ignoriing him for a while, but always end up answering because he is so persisitent.

I am also obsessed with wanting to find the truth, no matter how much it hurts.

You are absolutely correct with this, we end up feeling so sure of their habits and ways that it is inevitable.

We end up spending most of our time trying to find the absolute truth becasue our 'gut instinct' always tells us something is wrong.

This is what I have had trouble with, so paranoid that he is seeing someone else whilst he is not with me, that I have ignored the real issue.

It's how he treats ME that I should be objecting to, whether there is someone else in the dynamic or not?

WHne we are co-dependent and also afraid of the rejection, it does become easy to let your baoundaries slip. I have put so many in place, only to let them slip.

I really need to study up on this boundary thing don't I 



Title: Re: Secrets, lies and devious behavior
Post by: House of Mirrors on May 23, 2013, 09:21:09 AM
Summer – you are probably right but maybe I am coming from a place of being tired of it all being about him and his needs. I have been endlessly understanding about many things – not just this issue. If I now have to extend myself again by understanding this is part of his uBPD and I need to educate myself about HIS issues rather than mine then aren’t I just being MORE codependent? Maybe I should be looking to raise my self-belief and self-esteem to a point where I just tell him to shove it and feel OK about that? However, there is the classic BPD dynamic at work in my relationship which is that the good stuff is great and the bad stuff is terrible – just like when he is nice he is nice and when he is not he is awful. We stay for the good stuff / good times and minimise / justify the rest to ourselves. Sad but true.

What makes me think that he is disrespecting me is this: my belief is that as he is a grown man he should be able to be rational and understand that if I have said he will lose the relationship if he continues then surely the risk outweighs the reward of his sex liaisons of whatever type they may be.  I made myself VERY clear to him about what my views are (albeit before I realised the behavior may be BPD driven) and he is still crossing those boundaries. You are saying he is not in control of that. You may well be right as he is not in  control of any other aspects of his BPD but part of me is tired of being on the receiving end of the BPD behaviours and just wants a normal, truthful, adult relationship and for my partner to be who he says he is rather than say he is something and be incongruent. He knew how much his behaviour hurt me when I found out before yet still he persists. As long as he is getting his needs met why worry about mine I guess... .

I am tired. I am sad. I am OK one minute and not OK the next. One minute I am on the boat enjoying the sun and the next I am plunged into the deep water and facing the sharks circling beneath.

Dealing with my CD and his uBPD is really hard

HoM


Title: Re: Secrets, lies and devious behavior
Post by: almost789 on May 23, 2013, 10:21:42 AM
I think that your pain comes from not knowing what you want. To accept it for what it is, or not and move on without him. To understand that a compulsion/addiction/mental disorder is not about you, is not co-dependant. When you can understand that his behavior is not about you, it just eleviates the anger part. I'm not saying for you to accept it. Im saying you need to get to a place where you radically understand and accept it is what it is, an addiction that will not change because you tell him it has to end. You already learned that. You told him, he continued. You have to either accept it, or don't. That is your choice and it is a difficult one to make and I don't think MOST people cant accept it and ultimately it does lead to the end of the relationship. But, if you decide you do not want the end of the relationship, then it would help you to learn what an addiction or mental illness really means so that you can understand that his behaviors have NOTHING to do with you and you can't control them with threats of leaving. Infact, that only exacerbates it.


Title: Re: Secrets, lies and devious behavior
Post by: House of Mirrors on May 23, 2013, 11:17:45 AM
Firstly - apologies Murph for totally hijacking your thread and I hope you are OK.

Summer – I think my pain comes from not knowing what the extent of it is – so not being able to accept it (i.e. is it contact or non-contact? If non-contact I can make some BPD allowances but I still don’t ACCEPT or LIKE it) and also not being able to have complete transparency or trust in my r/s. It pains me to not be able to discuss the elephant in the room – I want to bring it out and deal with it adult to adult and I can’t – that makes me feel so alone and impotent. I admit that other pain comes from ending things so to a degree you are correct. I am caught between pain and pain! Great choice…

I understand that this issue is not about me and I agree that is not CD BUT if I go away and spend my time and energy (MORE time and energy) reading up on WHY he behaves like this rather than focus on raising my self-worth then that IS CD as I am prioritizing him over and above me.

As for radical understanding and acceptance – I know nothing about this topic. Is it what it says on the tin? Do I have to just accept and understand that as the behaviour most likely stems from BPD (rather than being a selfish pig who disrespects me) then he is not in control of it and so until he chooses to change then I have no choice? I agree that we can only change ourselves. I am trying to change myself (not FAST enough!) but I can’t outrun the pain that his behavior causes me.

Feel free to recommend a tool that would help me here. I feel a bit lost!

HoM


Title: Re: Secrets, lies and devious behavior
Post by: almost789 on May 23, 2013, 12:02:45 PM
No, I didn't say you have to study up on his illness. Of course you can just accept it is an illness. What I said was that you SHOULD understand what an addiction/compulsion is, because you first stated you didn't believe he had this no control over it idea and that he was doing it just to disrespect you. I had a very bad anger problem with mine too for a long time because I kept thinking he just didn't care and was just doing it to hurt me. Ok, so then I understoon the addiction part, so I was good there. But then the other things! The things that go along with BPD. Those things I thought he was doing on purpose. And it really appears as if they are doing things on purpose to hurt us, but it wasn't until I understood that it is NOT on purpose, their brains make them do things they dont want to do! Not until you get that will you be able to have empathy for them when they are pulling their stunts! It took away all my anger. Just dealing with "myself" and turning a blind eye to understanding to what was going on with him did not work for me. It just didn't. I had to understand. But, if you can cope by just saying... . he has a disorder of course do what works for you. Your not going to change him. Its not going to change without treatment. Im sorry, this is tough to swallow, but that is what radical acceptance is. It does not mean you AGREE with it.


Title: Re: Secrets, lies and devious behavior
Post by: waverider on May 23, 2013, 08:05:40 PM
The problem with addictions and destructive behavior is that the only truth is that you will never know the real truth. That is hard to accept and it is the chase to find the elusive truth that destroys you.

Even if you were told the absolute truth you would not have complete faith in it being so, hence it is an empty result.

Protect yourself from the pain of the never ending quest for this empty truth. You are being indirectly infected by the illness.



Title: Re: Secrets, lies and devious behavior
Post by: arabella on May 23, 2013, 08:47:30 PM
The thing with an addiction is that if the person is able to stop, then it's not an addiction. Think of an alcoholic - they can't stop. They may know their drinking is destroying their lives and their relationships. They feel terrible. They are desperate to try to hold things together. Yet, they still drink. Some hit rock bottom and seek out treatment and manage to recover - most do not. It is the exact same thing with your husband.

Not being able to talk about it, for me, would make it feel worse. Imho, if you are going to stay, you need to adjust your boundary so that you aren't constantly hiding from yourself. Then tell your husband that you know. Point at that elephant, give him a name, and start learning how to keep him out of your way. At least then you're both being honest about it - even if you don't like it.


Title: Re: Secrets, lies and devious behavior
Post by: House of Mirrors on May 24, 2013, 08:42:59 AM
Hi again,

Thanks for your replies. I needed a time out to reflect upon my feelings. I think you are right that I am making it about me when in fact this is his stuff that he probably has no control over.

Two books on BPD turned up today that I had ordered. I have scanned some parts of them and it just reinforces what you are saying. There was one very poignant paragraph: 'You will have to give up the fantasy that you can change someone else. When you let go of this belief you will be able to claim the power that is truly yours; the power to change yourself.' I don't want to change him - I want him to want to change himself but he won't, his self-concept is too fragile to cope so who am I to push him?

So YES I should be dealing with my own reasons and behaviours that keep me here I guess and coming to terms with the fact that if I don't want to be with someone who is a sex addict (whatever extents that has to it) then I need to work at being strong enough to leave and follow through on my ultimatum. That is exactly the process I started a month ago. It is not easy. It is not what I want to do but if I want to be in a truthful and adult relationship then I am kidding myself staying where I am.

He is in firm denial and I am not sure he is capable of change, even probing at the issues gently results in denial and lies so where is there left for me to go? I guess I need to work at getting stronger and prepare myself for an exit at some point... . when I feel ready.

In the meantime I need to read books about MY stuff, not his... .

Sigh

HoM


Title: Re: Secrets, lies and devious behavior
Post by: almost789 on May 24, 2013, 08:59:37 AM
You are catching on quickly! I still struggle with this too. Im in the same position. I want him to change. I want HIM to want to change. I don't know if he REALLY wants to change. He is bigtime in denial, I think he wants to, but I don't know if he is ready. He's not communicating that.  But I am getting to a point where I'm feeling like I have to get on with MY life, if he want to change, great. We don't have to draw that line to say, it's over I am leaving. But, I need to start paying attention to me now and see what happens from there. Good luck to you!


Title: Re: Secrets, lies and devious behavior
Post by: House of Mirrors on May 24, 2013, 10:32:41 AM
Thanks Summer,

The head can understand things and the heart feels something far more painful

I feel very sad a lot of the time right now, even when things seem fine on the surface. I guess because my illusions are shattered.

I am considering trying to find a local group or some help for partners of sex addicts. I did some reading about this and identified so much with the codependent feelings and behaviours because that is the exact situation I am facing. I am then not dealing with his feelings but MINE. I also wrote myself a list of things fo rme to work towards so that I get stronger.

Maybe my position in time will be to tell him that I am ending our relationship as I no longer feel I should stay with someone who is living in denial, lying to me, busting my boundaries, and resistant to changing himself. We will see if I can get there... . it is a tough road but I know it is time for me to change and deal with my emotions past and present.

The strength of my feelings yesterday made me realise that I need to address my pain and take steps to heal myself - not him, he is responsible for himself. I may wobble from that position - we will have to see... .

Have a good weekend,

HoM


Title: Re: Secrets, lies and devious behavior
Post by: Granum on May 24, 2013, 11:16:06 AM
I recently left my BPD boyfriend, and while i KNOW he has BPD, he is undiagnosed.  His behavior fits the BPD criteria to a T.  While we have only exchanged a few texts in last 2 weeks (me just reiterating a strong boundary of -- get into recovery, or NC with me), what I think a lot about is this sex addiction part of his behavior.  In the beginning of our relationship, we had sex a lot - it was last summer, and we both had more time than usual to be able to do this.  But soon I started to see that his behaviors appeared "objectifying" or certainly only caring for his own instant gratification, and in no way resembled true intimacy between two partners who said they loved each other.  I could not wrap my head around it.  Then I caught him -- only a month or two into our relationship-- "sexting" with another woman.  We had a huge row, and I left him (For the first time of probably 20+ times I left him in all).  While he fell short of making true amends, I did see in their texting exchange that these two had "probably" gotten together, at least once.  As I write this, I cannot believe I allowed him to talk me back!  He went to rehab for 7 days, and while he did not take rehab seriously enough (he did not stay, and covered up the center's true recommendations -- he is an alcoholic), he did emerge making indirect apologies for this event.   

But the more recent behavior centered around his desires for "us" to view porn while making love, wanting to go to strip clubs, wanting to have threesomes/eightsomes (!).  The grilling for all of this - yes, grilling - was relentless; felt like he mentioned it daily.  It was not "fun" talk; it was tiresome.  All the while he was acting out, raging over small things. And I am thinking to myself, -while I am up for adventure in a truly trusting relationship -- that is not what we had, as he abused that trust over and over and over.  I guess I speak to the other members who here too who have had similar issues with their partners.  He wanted to "push boundaries" with me in the bedroom -- but trust is SO key to be able to do that.  And the boundary-pushing was usually something greater for him, not for me.   what am I getting out of a threesome? He just wants to be validated and gets to have sex with another while I am present, which in his mind,  just tells him it is ok.  I told him I was not interested in an "open relationship".  A couples counselor told him to drop it finally.  But he would not drop the porn, the references that I needed to get more creative in the bedroom (while he mostly did nothing special for me).  It made me SO resentful, and I think it made me love him so much less.   He also asked me/no made me do things in the bedroom I did not want to do -- and told him I did not enjoy -- but he did not care.  All he cared about was his own gratification.  It was emotional/sexual abuse.  I consider myself a sensuous, love sex kind of woman, but his demands and his ways made me dread sex with him, even though my physical attraction to him prob kept me there MUCH longer than I would have otherwise.  Believe me, I note a lot of my own sickness here, --that I allowed such behavior, and did not enforce my boundaries enough - but I tried, tried, tried over and over again.  But his long line abuse has frittered away a love for him.   Thus, sadly enforcing my latest boundary of NC unless recovery - while challenging, isn't nearly as hard as it has been in the past.  I never could detach and still keep my love alive for him after all of this.  I do miss the good parts, but can't live with the abuse/lies/deceit any longer.


Title: Re: Secrets, lies and devious behavior
Post by: almost789 on May 24, 2013, 03:59:24 PM
Dont blame you there Granum. You don't need that! You deserve better.


Title: Re: Secrets, lies and devious behavior
Post by: arabella on May 24, 2013, 04:54:37 PM
Granum - that situation was wholly untenable, good for you for getting yourself out! That must have been so hard to do, but obviously you're a very strong person. |iiii

HoM - I think we sometimes inadvertently contribute to the denial. I'm not suggesting you take ownership of his issues, I'm just suggesting that perhaps some of 'our stuff' conflicts with 'their stuff', you know? So, if I tell my H that if I catch him watching porn again I'm leaving him, guess what he's going to do? Hide it. And in hiding it and lying to me he starts to lie to himself. If he acknowledges to himself that he's lying to me and behaving inappropriately then he feels bad about himself - and he can't handle that. I am essentially asking him to choose between the only two things that make him feel better - porn or me. What a dilema! So he lies, even to himself, to avoid the choice. He can't even admit he has a problem in order to seek treatment because then: (a) he won't have his 'drug' anymore and he can't think what he'd do without it (he doesn't know that treatment means discovering new ways to self-soothe, he probably doesn't even realize that's what he's doing); and (b) if he admits he has a problem then he admits he's 'using' again and I'll leave him. You see the catch-22 there.