BPDFamily.com

This is something that I don't think I quite understand about this disorder.  The "lack of object constancy" part makes sense to me.   But if this is so true and so powerful, why do so many people with BPD seem to reach out and keep in touch and try to recycle after being apart for awhile?  If you are truly "out of mind" when you were "out of sight" for a while, wouldn't they forget about you completely and you'd never ever hear anything from them again? 

I'll preface this point by saying I do not have a great understanding of this part of BPD... .

But, I would imagine even if you are "out of sight and out of mind", the pwBPD could still come across something in their life which reminds them of you.  I am sure you have had the experience, a person you know is the last thing on your mind and then you see or hear something randomly during your day that reminds you of them and brings them to the front of your mind.  It is a trigger of sorts.

I dont believe that they "forget" you, but they put those feelings for you in a box and set it on the shelf.  They cant process the pain, so your memory must go there.

One day when they are in pain and need soothing, they look at their boxes on the shelf... . and think about how good "your" box on the shelf made them feel.  How that box on the shelf always cared and supported them.  Maybe that box on the shelf can take away their pain again.


So they take a look inside the box to see if there is anything in that box left for them.  Notice that nothing in what I said is about you.  Its about them.

That was excellent and exactly right.  I remember how good it made me feel to take away that pain from her.  I felt like the Great Hero.  That is the trap for some of us that are prone to that weakness.

I think the obsession is when you are the only box left on the shelf that fills a need they have... . they have to have it or they die inside.

You know, some of this stuff isnt necessarily just for people with BPD.  Alot of the criteria I have experienced myself from time to time.  We all do it.

Its not a diabolical plan, its just how people deal with their emotions.

laelle nailed this one. When you aren't needed,you're the last thing on their mind.When they sense abandonment with their new SO,they may reach out to you to fill the need that isn't being filled at the moment.Keeping you on the backburner so to speak,in case things don't work out.

Or,they may be keeping someone else on the backburner and you don't hear from them.

Does anyone have a sounder psychoanalytical perspective on this?

My understanding is that their lack of object constancy allows them to alternate rapidly between one attachment to another.  From a non-disordered perspective, it seems like they can suddenly lose their attachment or "forget" about us.

Here's a definition of object constancy I pulled from the interweb-tubes:


The key quality as I see it, as it relates to the phenomena we are discussing, is "rejecting any substitute for such an object."  For people who *lack* object constancy, they may be able to establish that one person is their object, or mother, but can then suddenly switch to another object.  Or: they can fall in love with you, but then suddenly find that they've fallen in love with someone else without ever having to get over you.

So it's not that they *forget* you.  But rather, the emotional attachment they feel towards you can evaporate the minute they establish it with someone else.  Moreover, their lack of object constancy makes it impossible for them to "tolerate loving and hostile feelings toward the same object", which is why they "split" us.  They either love us.  Or else they hate us.  They can't handle both.  *When we are their object*.

They cannot keep their "object" or their attachment to us, "constant" in their mind.

When we are not their object, such as when they become attached to someone else, we become a possible substitute for their object (make no mistake though, we are probably not the only one).  Any ex-object, is probably considered a possible substitute for their object - especially when they are devaluing their current object.  The problem for them, I think, is that the minute they re-accept us as their object, the familiarity they've already established for us becomes a major trigger for them, and so in theory their recycling episodes should be more short-lived each subsequent recycle.  

Shouldn't we be completely out of their mind when we are out of their sight?  Well, the way their behavior makes sense to me is that it's not their memory of us that gets erased (or displaced), it's their "emotional" memory of us.  They don't forget us, they just forget exactly how they feel about us.  For that matter, when they are with us, they cannot stick to one set of emotions anyway: that is they constantly shift between idealization to devaluation.  Again, they are unable to hold their "object" or feelings/affect towards us, "constant."


I hope this qualifies, but as far as I'm concerned it's the same perspective expressed by Laelle but with different words.

Do you think because of the long history of abandonment that they have developed an unconscious or conscious "protocol" for putting their flawed object away?

I noticed my ex seemed to go into auto break up mode the moment something was said that split me to the "dark side of the force"

Like, "Ok, this object is broken... . where did I put that extra box"?  "Oh, here it is... . let me gather up all those nasty bits and pieces that are no longer useful and put them in the box."

"To tell you the truth, this old shriveled up piece of junk doesn't deserve a box, I should just throw it away. "Nah, I might need it later."  

"One day when I have nothing else to occupy my time, I might pick it back up and tinker around with it a bit.  "Its caused me alot of trouble tho, we will just have to see when the time comes." " Until then, let it sit on the shelf."  "What a disappointment that object was."

"Now, I have a new and improved object,  must be better than the last one.  It makes me laugh."

Iaelle, Schwing -


Thank you!  I think that break down was articulate and clarifying.  It makes sense that it's about their inability to maintain any kind of consistent attachment.  

I wonder if the chances of them returning or obsessing over any particular "box" has to do with the quality of that "box"?  Like... . would she be more likely to try to recycle with me cause we had a generally healthy relationship and I treated her much better than her previous exes?  Or maybe it doesn't matter at all because she might not even be able to distinguish between what was a positive relationship and what was negative?

@laelle


My understanding is that it's a specific (or repeated) abandonment (or betrayal -- e.g., abuse) *trauma* (which they may or may not be consciously aware of) which causes a kind of PTSD, except that it also happens at an early enough stage of their psychological development that it interrupts or *arrests* their emotional development, so they never go through phases of psychological development which the rest of us take for granted.

Non-disordered people (presumably) have internalized their relationship with their parents to a degree that all subsequent interpersonal relationships are not "substituting" that relationship.  We form relationships with other adults, but these attachments never "replace" our attachment to our parents (our object of origin, if you will).  Non-disordered people can maintain multiple interpersonal relationship and keep separate their independent attachments.  I don't believe this is the case when you lack object constancy.


I think when they split us black, or devalue us, this is a time when they have a harder time accepting us as their "object" but they can.  You can hate mother, but still recognize mother is mother.  But I think when they devalue us sufficiently, probably when it is coupled with an overwhelming feeling that we intend to abandon them, that a survival instinct switches on driving them to find a new mother, or object.  Think of a battered child, trying to decide who is "mother" the rigid artificial mother who provides the sustenance of milk, or the soft artificial mother who provides the comfort and security?  I am reminded of an series of experiments performed in the 50's on monkeys. (http://www.pages.uoregon.edu/adoption/studies/HarlowMLE.htm) I think the battered child (or monkey) chooses whichever "mother" suits their need at the moment.


I think it is sufficient to say their calculus is: "I don't want you now, but I might need you later."

@Tordesillas,


I think the major quality they are concern about is the likelihood that you will abandon them.  And for them, it's the degree to which you trigger their disordered fear of abandonment. 

I think when enough time has passed, as when their specific familiarity to you has diminished sufficiently, they might be able to re-attach to you with less of their disordered fear of abandonment triggered.  But due to the nature of adult relationships, their disordered fear will probably always be triggered, unless you can some how limit that by behaving differently than before?  Keeping your distance.  Not being as attached as you were before.  But then you'd have to ask yourself, is this the kind of relationship you want for yourself?


First, she doesn't remember accurately how her previous exes treated her.  As far as you know they treated her as well as (or better than) you did.

What is a "healthy" relationship for you, is very likely to trigger all her disordered behaviors for her.  I think it is better for you to accept that she is incapable of being in a "healthy" relationship for very long.  Consider one of the DSM IV criteria for BPD diagnosis: "pattern of intense and unstable interpersonal relationship characterize by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation."



I think she only discerns what her emotions are at any one point in time.  And she hasn't even begun to understand how her disordered emotions affect her ability to stay in a stable and supportive relationship.

So... . like someone who goes through life with a "what have you done for me lately?" attitude, who has short term memory loss.

Schwing -

Oh - I know I have to take everything she told me with a grain of salt.  Most of the abuse/cheating on the part of her previous partners was verified by family and friends.  I feel fairly confident in saying I was the most healthy partner she's ever had.  Which is why I guess I'm curious if there is a difference in who/how/when they recycle.  I suppose only time will tell... .

We fell in love their their child-like heart and spirit.  They were able to reach deep down into our psyche and stir-up our own inner child even those that were wounded.  We just didn't have any idea how much like a child they really are.

Sometimes it feels like my ex felt like he got too close to me. He was too vulnerable and let me in one a deep level. Its as tho he's intimidated by my knowledge of everything about him. And he feels uncomfortable that I know too much. Almost as tho he fears I might let all his innermost secrets out to people. This shows lack in trust in people. But it's weird because it seemed like he felt relief when he was able to be vulnerable about himself to me or in his words he could be himself. So it seems sad to me that this one aspect of our relationship that was awesome is now something that he views as a threat or something he wants to forget. I haven't told anyone any of his less than perfect experiences. It makes me wonder if he is experiencing diarrhea of the mouth now and is revealing all my less than perfect experiences to this new interest he's talking to?

In my case, I think my ex felt he was too vulnerable but at the same time it brought him relief in a sense... . No judgment from me and unconditional acceptance. Sometimes I think he switches back from the good feelings he had to feeling threatened about it.

I don't know what was more hurtful, the fact that my ex was in denial about anything being wrong with her or the fact that these were pretty much her words at the very end of the relationship. Actually what I got was "We might be like Liz Taylor and Richard Burton and get married to each other again in the future"

After going through her old e-mails, she described herself as a classic pwBPD but without ever using those words. When it came to other men though, she would tell them how she was so supportive of my "issues" but didn't have any of her own and that she is a wonderful, caring, loving and selfless person.

It's funny because the Liz Taylor comment came just hours before she painted me black and had a rage burst at the therapist for basically not seeing the logic in her thinking.

a psychologist with expertise dealing with BPD sufferors said that they "compartmentalize" their relationships with people... . so in effect your relationship with him gets put into a box and stored away until he gets disatisfied with his other relationship(s) at which point he pulls the box marked you out of the closet and tries you on again until you disappoint and then he gets an old ex out again or finds a new plaything down at a bar, etc.   

and it just goes on and on and on that way... .

b2

They'd rather do this than deal with anybody's nasty feelings including their own, because they are emotionally underdeveloped. During a vulnerable time in their childhood, some trauma happened, that caused them to feel extremely emotionally unprotected, and insecure within themselves, and still carry it over into other relationships, projecting it outward, thinking they are really protecting themselves, instead of facing these blocked out traumatic feelings. So they've compartmentalized themselves  along with others. Recycling is a form of therapy for them. Their way of working through it, and hoping we can help them. But we can't. Nobody can. That is what therapists have been trying to do. To stop this cycle of compartmentalizing, projecting, and protecting, and face these feelings internally, instead of running.

I thought laelle's answer illustrated it really well. She mentioned how "nons" compartmentalize these things as well, which I agree with. I was wondering if BPD pathology makes this impulse more intense and pervasive and that's where the "disordered" thinking comes in? I guess the lack of self and dependency on an object to fulfill their persecution complex is what compulsively drives them to reengage even after painting someone black?

I might be getting in over my head.

I think they put you away so quickly because its a continuous pattern... . they have been stuffing those feelings and people in boxes since they were little and traumatized.  Its more than likely second nature. 

I dont think they want to hang around long enough to take any of the responsibility... . They give you the ton of the responsibility, and carry a backpack with them out the door.  Staying longer might force them to have to carry more with them. 

Acknowledging that they caused undeserved pain in someones life would be impossible for them to deal with.  They are all about Justice/Injustice.  That being said, they are the prosecutor, judge and jury in their world and you will ALWAYS be found guilty in their courts while you are in their world.  They have a crafty defense mechanism set up to avoid pain.

He did not recycle. I did. Always. It was always me who made the first contact, and always me who wanted to try again. He was trying  to get a new "me", he tried to replace me. I just did not know that. Took me long time to find out that side about him. Maybe because he couldn't get a new "me". If he could have, we would have never recycled, because he could have said "no" to me  :).

In his eyes I had already proven myself to be faulty. Very faulty. But I was better than nothing, and I wagged my tail to him desperately. Better have one faulty girlfriend than zero girlfriend! It was very hard for me to accept that this is how his mind works. I was never a real person for him, I had a purpose. Anyone could fill that purpose. Womans personality is just an annoyance to him!

But yes, all that recycling was my doing.

@laelle: your analogy about justice/injustice is absolutely how I see it too. I had that all in my head when I was with my ex, but I couldn't put my finger in it... . maybe I'm really thickheaded

LOL, your not thickheaded, its just some really deep stuff to understand.  I have been here for a total of 2 years and the light goes on EVERY single day for me.

I always begged for my ex back too, but I think that is part of our FOG complex... . Fear, Obligation and Guilt that we feel towards the relationship.

I have never found a time when my ex (when im white) would not take me back... . they NEEED to emotionally release to any and everybody willing to except it.

They boil over with anger, shame, guilt and need someone there to catch it for them and make it go away.  As many times as you catch it, they only make more, and do not have the capacity to figure out what is causing it to make it stop.

After you have been out of the relationship for a time the fog lifts and you can see things more for what they really were.  :)

 

I can add little to the already superb and insightful posts on this thread, but I will say from my experience with my ex contacting me after 1.5 years, it was almost as if time had stood still for him as far as I was concerned.  

Recycle or contact attempts after a lengthy period of time often represent their projection of how they wish for us to reach out to them; to love them despite of what they have done and to give them the unconditional love they never received as a child.  Their object constancy issues don't allow for a solid connection with anyone other than the object of their original trauma. This trauma bond keeps them both ensnared in an effort to somehow heal the pain.

Contact/recycles represent an effort on their part to be re-parented and this is the same pattern of behaving they've learned from childhood.  My ex and his mom would have constant falling-outs and reconciliations.  :)uring their no-contact time, I would ask him if he had talked to his mom lately, and he would almost always say "not yet... . I know she's still pissed."  There's no reason for him to believe this same pattern of behaving wouldn't also work with me once a significant amount of time had passed.  

It was as if a small child were tugging at my shirt, seeking attention from the mother object, thinking maybe this time it will work and therefore heal his deepest pain.

tailspin

Crumbs. . .sometimes things hit home that others say!  My ex has always been the one to try and re-cycle. . .and has done so recently again after a year of NC. . .and I think this could well be the reason Tailspin.

I never knew his mother, she died when he was about 18/19. . .and he very, very rarely talked about her or his Dad (who also died before I met him).

Four months after I ended the r/s and we had no contact he e-mailed me late at night saying 'he HAD to know how I was, he HAD to know'.  Thinking about it now I would say that was more about his r/s with - and losing his mother for good.

. . .and has done so recently again after a year of NC. . .and I think this could well be the reason Tailspin."

sm  

It's heartbreaking to see our ex's reach out to us if you look at it from this perspective, however, please remember you cannot give them what they need, regardless of whether they think you can or not.

The pathology of their illness doesn't allow for successful re-parenting from the mother object because the trauma bond from their biological mother, and the true source of their original pain, will remain in tact regardless.

Eventually, he will always hate you as much as he hated her.

We are constantly being placed in no-win situations with those who are mentally ill but this doesn't compare to the no-win situations they live with on a daily basis.  It's best to protect yourself with knowledge and let them go with love.

tailspin

Tailspin - you brought up something I hadn't thought about in awhile. My exBPD's family was so dysfunctional it's almost unbelievable. They too would argue and then not speak to each other for days on end, sometimes weeks. My ex would be afraid to call one of his parents after an argument because he thought he was angry. His dad and mom would go days without speaking to each other and live in the same house. His brother did the same thing to his wife and his wife would come into work in tears (they all work together). I just couldn't imagine not speaking to my family for that long because we got into an argument, and especially not if we lived under the same roof!

My ex always shut down and gave the silent treatment after we got into an argument. That's probably in my book one of the worse parts of being with him for as long as I was. It's abusive.

Often it is a combination of their solitude, alcohol, music and staying up late that would trigger it. In my case, it was Valentines day in tandem with a bereavement she'd had that prompted her to contact me again. She messaged me a slightly incoherent garble about life being short at 1:30am. I figured she'd been on the booze. But to my amazement she followed through with everything in the ensuing weeks, drove everything leading us to get back together, before she sabotaged, devalued and discarded me in the most pathetic and nasty way. I've blocked her on everything now, yet my heart still aches for her.

I noticed something very interesting though, at the very same moment that she messaged me, she shared on her Facebook 'Black' by Pearl Jam, summed up in songmeanings.com as "The most honest and raw expression of such excruciating pain and longing that anyone who’s ever lost their greatest love can relate to."

She always loved that song, and sent it to me a couple of times when we were going out (we used to send each other songs).

I personally don't buy this 'lack of object permanency' thing, it's one of the aspects of BPD that makes little sense to me and doesn't explain much of anything. When you're in the idealization phase, they sure as hell have object permanency for you, they can do nothing else but think of you. I think BPD individuals have so much emotional turmoil going on under the surface that they have little spare mental and emotional capacity for things us nons have such as self-reflection, empathy and forethought. So when they're infatuated with your replacement, that's all they've got under the hood to work with. Likewise, when they were infatuated with you, you were by far the biggest and shiniest source of emotional supply for them, so naturally their minds gravitate to whatever the biggest source is.

If you're dying of dehydration, do you mourn the well that you destroyed through your own carelessness? Or do you focus on the next well?

Pretentious Bread your quote "If you're dying of dehydration, do you mourn the well that you destroyed through your own carelessness? Or do you focus on the next well?" sums it up very well, thank you.

object permanence, or the concept of "out of sight, out of mind", is not, i dont think, literally meant to suggest that our partners "forget we exist" when we arent in front of them. the title of this thread, and most of our own experiences would reasonably lead us to believe to the contrary.

object permanence is really the ability to self soothe feelings of loneliness, emptiness, abandonment, etc, with images of, with the sense of, and the comfort of, loved ones, our memories of them, the things we look forward to with them. to know that we are loved, and to feel that love.

i remember the many nights, when i wasnt with my ex, that she would sink into total despair, and shed ask to speak to me on the phone. her feelings of loneliness were palpable and i never understood it. id remind her of my love for her, try to cheer her up. remind her of things she had to look forward to. im sure that she appreciated the effort, but for the life of her, it made no difference in that moment. i could sense that when we were getting off the phone, she was going off to cry.

this impaired ability (to varying degrees) can speak to a lot of aspects of BPD.

when we are talking about how quickly some of our partners seem to move on though, a hard thing for me to swallow was that my ex had, perhaps not completely, but on a lot of levels, grieved the relationship. it wasnt just hard to swallow though, it was hard to see, given that it hadnt even been long since she expressed "falling in love with me all over again". but people with BPD traits over express themselves (for better and worse), and if your ex was unsure about breaking up, maybe having second thoughts, all of that can make for a very confusing breakup.

Yes, that's well explained. The water bucket with holes in it is a good metaphor. It's like they have a problem instantiating positive human interactions, it's never enough to be shown or told that someone cares for them. They have to fish for these compliments any time they're 'thirsty' for emotional supply.

You also make a good point about the ex being unsure. Something I myself have been guilty of since the breakup is seeing her behaviour in binary terms, assuming their actions were total and without any regret. I'll explain it all tomorrow, but in my case, I think my ex literally decided to breakup with me while she was drinking at the bar immediately before meeting me for what would be our last date...

Right now with my ex husband I am definitely in a box on the shelf and forgotten.  Reading through this thread I am curious as my ex-husband  ended it and I don't think there was another box on the shelf.  One of ex is married and lives 1,500 miles away.  Another one who discarded him lives 1,200 miles away and is sorta with someone.  That leaves one that is single and local that was physically abusive according to him though think it might be the other way round not sure.  There is another that was in the city we lived in before he discarded and moved however I am told they don't like each other.

Mine has heavy enmeshment with his sister who also became a pseudo mother due to his mother being a drug addict.  They are 4 months apart.  Prior to the discard they were trying to figure out how to get her husband to move where we lived ... he insisted on moving in 2016 to live somewhere warmer.  Next his sister started putting guild trips on him about his nephew wanting him at his games and so forth which wasn't possible as we were living 1,000 miles away. 

He did sorta leave the door open saying things soon after ending things which he now denies such as "if we are friends we might end up back together" and "it will be a while before we have sex".  He says he is focused on his career and doesn't even have time for a friendship now especially with an ex he cares deeply about.  We haven't talked since that conversation in June.

So I am wondering could the box taken off the shelf be his family as he may have felt he abandoned them when he pushed to move?  Could the box be his need to have a career now after repeatedly sabotaging himself and thinking the relationship wouldn't allow him to build a career?

I can see a lot in this thread however just curious is a box can be family or career.

This is spot on. Truth!

People with BPD are human beings -which means they are all  different... but in extreme cases they can lack object consistency to a shocking degree.

from https://themighty.com/2017/06/bpd-time-perception-object-permanence-borderline/ (https://themighty.com/2017/06/bpd-time-perception-object-permanence-borderline/)  This is quite an interesting article.  I will share a few excerpts.

" ...I have trouble creating an image of them [friends]  in my mind. Even if it’s only been a few days since I’ve spoken to my friends or seen them, it feels like it’s been weeks, if not months."

This is similar to what @onceremoved spoke of.

The following is the more complete lack of object consistency I saw when Dream Come True was drinking --I ceased to exist.

"...Each time I see one partner [she is polyamorous] after spending time with the other, I go through a transition period when I have to remember I know them. Most of my memories with this person are temporarily lost in my mind and I struggle to feel safe around them for a while. I have a hard time holding onto memories in general. There are huge gaps in my memory..."

The article also talks about the time dilation suffers of BPD can experience -have a look

OMG this.  I could not have said this better myself.  Thank you, I needed this validation today!