BPDFamily.com

I just watched Prozac Nation and it's an real eye opener into how people with BPD think. I know they hurt people and are quite cruel but do you ever feel sorry for them?

I often feel sorry for him….I see extreme sadness and despair at times and I wish I could just take it all away, but there is nothing I can do for him. It breaks my heart at times to see how much he suffers but then he can be so damn mean and unkind that I feel like he is pure evil and for a moment I do not like him at all.  Its just so crazy!

every day i wish my ex BPD gf well and hope that one day she will see that she needs to get help. I feel pity rather than sorry

I swing between the two.  If I had to choose, I'd want her to find inner peace.

Seems unfair she seems to get her happy ending after all she did, but I do know she's unwell.

So yeah.  I do feel sorry for her. 

Sorry to which side of the pwBPD? Sorry to which face being presented to you? The side that was nice and polite and loving; or that awful creature the person transforms into after intimacy/closeness is triggered?

I felt sorry for her for seven and a half years. Insanity was my reward. Over it

My exgfwBPD was one of most beautifully horrific tortured soul I have ever come across. I know I can't fix or save her from her mental illness but I do pity her.  What really frightens me is how much I saw of myself in her.

Sorry for what they can not help doing, and for when they could change but choose not to. Sorry they can't appreciate needs being met. Sorry their pain is as real as ours.

  Hi Kallor74. Feeling sorry/having pity for them is fine, it shows you are a caring person. The problem is pwBPD will always take advantage of the caring people in their lives, if given the chance. It's hard to turn away from someone you still genuinely love, but ultimately it's not only in your best interests, it's the best thing you can do for them, too. They'll never get to the point of seeking the professional help they need if they always have enablers who care about them. They'll probably never get to that point at all, but it's their best hope.

I do sometimes feel sorry for my exBPDgf.  The I remember that she is well aware that she has BPD and was in treatment at one point.  Then she stopped getting treatment, stopped telling people that she had it (I didn't find out until after the relationship ended), and went about her merry way destroying the lives of the people she was closest to, all why playing the victim.  I stop feeling sorry for her then.  I pity her.  Who I do feel sorry for is her daughter, her ex-husband and his new wife, and anyone else that has her in their lives. 

Merry christmas everyone!

Re this: I only feel sorry for my ex. She is a true tragedy! She will never know love... .She can mimic love, and recognise it in other people. But she will never know that feeling of Love... .And it's not her fault.

I can not think of anything more tragic in this world!

I always felt very sorry for my husband but not anymore because he's not able to understand. I saw one of my friend's friend tonight who I know she is a borderline. We were talking about borderlines and I said I've got no sympathy for them as they destroy people's life and selfishly deny their issues!

She said shame prevents them to get help. When they don't care about themselves how you expect they are able to care for others! Soo true.

myself

Yes.  :)eep down inside, I do feel sorry for them.  PwBPD miss out on so many of the real joys in life.  That saddens me.

It does not mean they should be allowed to manipulate or abuse others because of their disorder.  

It means boundaries are necessary as are realistic expectations of what they are capable of and what they are not capable of, and most importantly why.  

If I could up vote you, I would. Such a true statement of how I feel right now.

I feel sorry for him a lot. More than I should. Makes it hard to leave.

The only time I don't feel sorry is when he keeps throwing lies in my face, lies which I believed for decades - it's all my fault, I'm the one to blame for our marriage going downhill, I'm the one who can't live with no social life, I'm the one that can't be satisfied with degrading impersonal sex, I'm the one that can't be happy 100% of the time, I'm the one keeping his family away and on and on and on.

I am sorry I ever got myself into this relationship. Looking at the good side, I will come out of this relationship stronger and wiser. I have him to thank for that.

No pity here. I think they're all scum of the earth. They should all be in prison.

Santa,

   I think many of them are in their own prison - we just can't see the bars.

I think feeling sorry for her is what I struggle with the most.  When she's lied or manipulated, I get really angry and feel so justified in cutting her off (my mother).  But as time goes by, I think I yearn for the mother I'll never have.  And my sisters are still very involved with her and I'm like the forgotten child (by choice, but it is still hard). Mom will act good for a while and then I feel like I've been too harsh and let her back in.  And she always, always lets me down again.  I've been in this same cycle for years.  Ironically, I was on another BPD message board in 2002.  I unsubscribed back then and then rejoined this month.  When i joined back, I could go back and read my old messages and I was like "OH MY GOD I've been doing this same cycle for over ten years."

I feel sorry for her because she's a tortured, lonely soul and there were good times.  I feel like she loved me in the way she knew how.  Her mother was a borderline and I think she had a pretty weird childhood.  So, is it her fault?  

Then I flip flop... .My mother definitely knows how to play the waif and get people to "rescue" her).  She knows to lie and she knows to cover up things she's done so that would show she knew it was wrong.  Truly, that would make her a sociopath because she doesn't have a conscience.  The end justifies the means in her eyes.  She has pulled identity theft on me, my two sisters, my Dad and my stepdad.  Forging signatures for credit cards and student loans.  And everyone (except me) just pays it back and doesn't hold her accountable.  But she knew to lie about these things.  And never really said she was sorry when she got caught.  She even convinced my sisters she did it to pay for their college.  Sometimes I wonder if BPD is just another way to say 'bad person.'  I mean, that's really what they are, isn't it?  

When I have compassion for her, I get hurt.  So, it's tough as you all know.  Her ex best friend is a therapist and told me if I could live with the guilt if she died tomorrow, to get as far away from her as I could.  

I feel sorry for them, for us and for everyone who has to deal with BPD, either by having it or for those who are attached to someone who has it. They suffer and we suffer. Nobody seems to win.

My feelings have changed as my healing has progressed. I have always felt pity for her. I probably would have sacrificed the rest of my life to make hers better, but once she cheated all bets were off.

During the initial stages I felt sorry for her and was angry with her all at the same time. I then became very angry and wanted revenge. Now that the hurt is gone I feel sorry for her and as I told her I will always be there to help her pay for any therapy even though I can't be with her anymore.

I realize that she could get help if she really wanted but let's face reality. The reason they don't seek help is the same reason that they are so messed up. They have developed coping mechanisms to survive. The fear of being exposed is like a death sentence for most of them.  Exposing their shame and self hatred is too painful. They can not bring themselves to talk about this shame and self loathing to anyone. It is such a ___ed up mess.  The ultimate mind ___. A total circle jerk.  A perpetual ticket to ride on the merry-go-round of life. Everyone loses. That is everyone that a pwBPD becomes involved with, including themselves.

I am thankful that I can move on and become happy again. She will have good moments but they will be fleeting. I pray for her a lot. I pray that He will have mercy on her and ask Him to heal her. Not for me. Only for her. Our time together is a thing of the past.

I would echo a lot of what Waifed says... .I was also with a Waif. I often told her I thought she "looked sweet" on her dating profile. She never could quite understand. In therapy, I remembered I saw her profile and thought that she just needed some TLC. Now I'm sure that her hurt reflected in the sadness in her pictures is some of what drew me to her. My desire to comfort her and turn it into a success story sort of as a redemption for my mom's story (single mom/not terribly healthy/emotionally not so stable). On another level, finding some worth for myself in being a rescuer. Doesn't usually work out.

I saw her deep hurt and brokenness early on. I did try to comfort her and hoped to improve the relationship. I was a really good boyfriend/fiance. Of course it didn't matter, as it was just textbook borderline. She was never in love with who I really was. I think I had a better idea of who she really was, but didn't realize the depths of her brokenness.

I do send some prayers for her and her daughter sometimes. Anyone who hurts people like we've been hurt must have experienced some really serious suffering at some point. I don't think her family dynamic is very healthy or supportive. It doesn't excuse an adult continually behaving poorly, but it's a sign to point to. I wouldn't doubt if they all had some unhealthy codependency or even borderline traits. Though in some ways it's a never-ending sad love story, the responsible thing to do is to let her go and give her a chance to hit rock bottom and wake herself up.

no.

I am deeply troubled by this question. While on one hand I'm personally sympathetic and feel pity about what has happened to them, conversely on the other hand I am disgusted and repelled by how they choose to deal with it. 

I feel compassion for any human being that was sexually abused as a young child. Do I feel sorry for her, no. I accept that she is alien. I love or loved a different breed. Wolves can mate with dogs. We are hybrid.

Yes I do feel sorry for him.

But I am too caring a person. The man I'm with now doesn't understand why I do feel sorry for him, the way he has treated me and they way I cry at night thinking I'm a bad person because of him.

But because I do feel sorry for him is why I know deep down I am a good person.

I do feel sorry for the pain pwBPD was in.  I suspect that the pain I felt and difficulty coping while in the r/s and afterward was akin to what he deals with everyday.  That breaks my heart.

And the shenanigans make me angry, too, because I'm human. 

Yeah, I feel sorry for that beautiful little girl who could have been a fine human, if she just hadn't been so damaged by her parents, then again, she wouldn't exist without them. I also feel sorry for the ripple effect, the decades–long wake of destruction she's left and all the pain she's created for people, and I feel sorry for the fact she's a survivor and hasn't yet felt enough pain to look for and find the right kind of help. Oh, and I feel sorry for the fact it took a boatload of borderline–induced pain to get through my thick skull and make me open to lessons and truth. Lots of sorry, sad situation, but we too are survivors, and nothing but good can come from our processing and healing; that's my story and I'm stickin to it... .

I do feel sorry for my ex... .  but it's this feeling that has kept me stuck and unable to fully disentangle myself from him at times despite being downright afraid of him at other times.  I can't even bring myself to say that I also feel sorry for myself.  No, I absolutely do not deserve to go thru the abuse he has doled out but I'm strong.  As broken as I am at this point, I will be okay.  This has all made me need to focus on my own issues and learn how to deal with those things... .I just wish he could do the same for himself... .  don't think it will ever happen though... .

I felt sorry a lot before, even after the break-up, but not any more (6 months NC).

The reasons:

1) he is a high-functioning one - he has a good career, good network of people around him - the only thing he needs to have a bit of willpower to change things, but for many reasons he prefers not to (it is a convenient escape!).

2) he lives on discomfort, hurt and drama of others, somehow his motto "if I feel pain - others have to pain as well!", of course he doesn't say it, but it turns out that.

3) he always finds a caregiver willing to feed his ego. I did before, paid too much - starting with almost losing my family and friends and ending with having so much projected self-hate and guilt.

I feel sorry for being stupid and having so many false beliefs and I am working on becoming proud of myself. I am sure he doesn't feel sorry for me, so why should I now?

Not right now I don't.

I DO hate her right now.  There is no feeling sorry for her.  I read in an old Ab Psych textbook last night that they have hx od childhood sexual abuse.  Now, I am not that evil to laugh or feel good if that ever hapened to her or anyone. Even pondered what sick f**k in her family would have done that to her.

But right now I am in that anger stage... .Just where I am.  Maybe one day I will feel sorry for her and try to understand that it is a mental disorder that should get some sympathy.

But she hurt me too bad this time, and I am on the road to my recovery... .and that means looking after me, not her... .no room for her right now

No,

They are sadistic and enjoy it.

     

“Expecting the world to treat you fairly because you are a good person is a little like expecting a bull not to attack you because you are a vegetarian”--- Dennis Wholey

No. I was disgusted by his behavior.

When I see all the damage and pain she has inflicted on others, the abuse she leveled at me, and the pleasure she took in hurting others, scamming them, getting people (especially me) to believe her lies, I have to say that I don't feel sorry for her at all. 

I find it disturbing because I know with certainty that she is severely mentally ill, I should feel compassion, and yet... .I will never forget her joyful grin when she would describe actions that would essentially ruin someone's life.  I think she is a monster.

I do feel sorry for her. I hate BPD (as everyone else here does). If PD was out of the equation, I'm positive there's a good person in there  It's so sad that she won't help herself and there's nothing that I can do. C'est la vie.

Feeling sorry for her? Yes I a way I so deeply loved this woman for 30+ yrs.

Feeling sorry for her?  I was the one smashed down by that same person (my anger).

Borderline is a disorder, it is not an excuse.

I have a sister with Down Syndrome. I don’t feel sorry for her as she is living her life (controlled in a house with a few others) within her world in which see has joy, activities and sorrow.

Yes I deeply love and care for her!

Yes my sister gives and returns love in the most sensitive way!

Yes I wished she was “normal” so I would have a sister to really interact with on an adult level.


What is normal for the spider    is     chaos for a fly tangled in the spiders web.

 

Sorry... .no way.

In some ways I think she knows what she has done, and is doing.

Did she care about my feelings then, or even now... .I seriously doubt it. Even today she contacts me with ridiculous reasons to want to talk to me, says I'm the only one she can talk to since I know so much of her personal history... .but the times I gave in to talk to her... .she took advantage of that to just bash me once again.

I am very conflicted with this... On one hand, I feel bad for the way he was mistreated/neglected/abandoned as a child and I feel that set up the foundation for why he is BPD... .on the other hand, he has put me through 17 months of hell... he has admitted he is broken, damaged, has issues, etc... and he has picked fights, put me down, cheated and a million other terrible things... I don't know if he can even help it or not bc that is how his brain is wired? I am not sure on this.

Did we date the same person?

For her, no I don't feel 'sorry' for, I feel more along the lines of pity for her, actually now I just feel sad for the type of life she really lives.

I feel sorrow for:   her family, her new baby, and her new husband-who has no idea what all she has done to me and her ex husband,  and was doing while she got him to become engaged to her.   

It is truly a sad way to live a life. 

I feel sorry for her in that she denies herself the very thing that would make her happy... .I was told that she feared being alone, but at the same time she pushed so many people away.

So yea, I also feel sorry for those people that got close to her only to be painted black and kicked away whenever she got scared.  I know I wasn't the first & I doubt I'll be the last.

I feel sorry for anyone that gives a damn about these psychos.

I LOVE your statements. Worthless psychos!

eh, I wouldn't call mine a psycho, despite how much hurt she put me through. I'm fairly sure that she doesn't realise what she's doing & doesn't understand why she keeps ending up at the same place with people. She leaves a trail of broken people behind her. The only person she wants back in her life is the one that dumped *her* first.

I admit tho... .part of me will feel validated if she does stay alone the rest of her life. I hate that I think that way at the moment & long term I hope I don't but... .yeah.

I don't feel sorry for my ex.  I do feel compassion that he is mentally ill.  When I see him I see a lot of sadness surrounding him and it makes me feel sad.  But I don't really feel sorry for him, no.  

Mr confused

They exactly know what they are doing and often enjoy it. You will reach this point too, it takes a very long time to reach level of non BPD level of intelligence to work everything out.

I suppose... .mine kept going on about wanting a simple, non drama filled friendship but did everything she could to cause it. Say we're great friends and then treat me the exact opposite, only to get annoyed when I'd call her out on it. The only times I had her full attention outside of seeing her was when we argued or disagreed on something.

No, I do not feel sorry for him. He is an adult, and takes no notice of the harm he causes others.

I feel sorry for his victims.

I wonder if they will be so broken by him that they commit suicide.

Now that would be a tragedy.

I hate this part. I'm better. I stayed too long. I tried too hard. She took delight in watching me fall apart. I suppose it gave her some sick pleasure. It disgusted me to think that I wanted her.

Bingo.

That's exactly what happened. It's amusing to her to watch you unravel. Fortunately for you, YOU WON. She failed to destroy you. You successfully got through it. Now you get to have a life without someone trying to push you to the edge of insanity everyday.

I wonder if she hated me or if it was just business

My ex says she hated me everyday, so I'm assuming it's universal with these BPDs. Obviously she didn't, but if she thinks she did now, then that's how it was.

It's true.  My ex took delight in hearing about the failures of a friend he had once claimed was his "best" friend, whom he loved deeply.  If they take delight in seeing us fail, then, what is it they feel when we succeed?  

I have a distant NPD relative, who drove her first step daughter to attempt suicide twice, her own daughter died of cancer at 34 after refusing ALL treatment (her mother agreed not to have her treated), and her husband, on his deathbed, told his son that the end couldn't come fast enough to release him from his wife.  I don't feel sorry for the NPDs because I think they are the devil incarnate... .but I do for some of the BPDs... .that is the ones who recognize there is something wrong.  Mine sniffed me out... .but in the end he let me go.  Whether it was because he understood I was hurt and decided to spare me, or because he realized he couldn't control/keep me and so it was pointless, or was simply too ashamed of himself, I guess I will never know.

I feel sorry for mine because she uses drugs to self soothe.  She's addicted to pain killers and recently got back involved with crack, cocaine, heroin, crystal meth... .the WORST stuff!  I don't do drugs myself and try to steer her away from them, but if she wants to destroy herself with them that's her decision.  I don't like it, I don't approve of it, it's sad to see, but it's her decision.  Just like it's my decision to stay with her, which is also sad, but it is my decision.

Tonight she asked me to leave for 5 hours so she could smoke crack with a friend of hers who is nothing but trouble.  She asked me to come back at midnight to break up the party so she wouldn't end up on a 3 or 4 day binge.  I said okay, came back at midnight, but she blew me off.  Now it looks like she'll be on that 3 or 4 day binge.  It's so sad to see.  It's even sadder that I want to be with someone who does things like that and am willing to tolerate things that I would never tolerate with anyone else.

Traumatized

There is a very fine line between "tolerating" and "enabling".  If you are traumatized now, you know the worst is yet to come.  Are you prepared to deal with her death and say it is ok... because it was her decision?

Is this really the life YOU want?  Please get some help.  If not for her, for yourself.

I used to. It's what kept me stuck and incur more damage.

Now I don't and i am free. Hurting still. But free. The hurt will end in due time. It would not had I stayed.

Traumatized, oh yes, that is sad.  i've had to look at the same stuff within myself. tough questions to ask and tackle.   

yes it is your decision to stay or go.  if i understood you correctly, you've decided to stay?   this board (L3) is for those who have and/or are ending the r/s.   

[L3] Leaving: Disengaging from a Partner with Borderline Personality

Support for those that have decided that it is best to end the relationship   

Members that have evaluated the emotional health of their relationship and relationship partner [L2] and have decided that it is best to end the relationship. To accept that when you leave a relationship (or are spurned), the most important thing for you is to get over the x-partner and move on to the next phase of your life.

Downloadable Pamphlet

More info: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56300.msg518499#msg518499

since you have decided to stay, folks who've decided to stay find support here:

[L5] Staying: Improving a Relationship with a Borderline Partner

Support for those committed to making the relationship work

Members that have evaluated the their relationship and personal situation [L2] and have decided to put forth their best effort to make the relationship work. Objective - to mitigate the challenges and put the relationship onto a healthier life track. us.

Downloadable Pamphlet

More info: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56303.msg518530#msg518530

you may also want to check out the undecided board:

[L2] Undecided: Staying or Leaving

Support for those assessing their relationship and deciding what to do

Members that believe their partner exhibits significant BPD traits and are now trying to understand what this means, and what to do about it. This is a place to work through the confusion that has besieged your life and understand the reality and choices before you.

Downloadable Pamphlet

More info: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56291.msg518474#msg518474

I felt sorry fory ex BPD girlfriend. I would try everythimg I could to show her I was there for. Her. It would break my heart when she would cry and ask me what was wrong with her brain... .to then treat me like a doormat. It was so confusing amd draining. I thought to myself... ." just keep being there for her" I was under the impression that mayne she would one day realize that I didnt deserve that type of treatment. Then after she would say things like... ."im going to try harder to love you"... .she would say things like... ."its going to keep happening (refering to her "splitting". She would say this with such an unpleasant demeaner, as though she was ok with her BPD. It was weird, creepy, and hurtful all at the same time. Almost as if she all of the sudden forgot about wanting to try harder to make things better between us. I knew about BPD, but I just couldnt comprehened how this could be happening. I continued to love her and be there for her and she ended up leaving me from one day to the next.  This may not make sense to many but I love her and hate her all at once and its tearing me apart.  I still find myself feeling sorry for her at times... .that is until feelings of hate start to overpower. She has done quite a number on me.

Yes, I am aware of that.  I started on the staying board when I first joined this website, then moved to the leaving board when I was coldly and abruptly dumped and absolutely could not deal with it.  My partner only recently came back into my life, so I haven't packed my bags to leave the leaving board yet.  Odds are I won't be gone too long, so is it okay if I leave a toothbrush behind?

It's hard for me to feel sorry when she left me when I needed her most. Apparently my own insecurities were a trigger for her. She always thought I would leave her for a man.

Sometimes I beat myself up over my insecurities but in a healthy relationship we would have talked it out. 

I never bailed on my ex. She bailed on me.

Maybe someday I will feel sorry for her.  Not today. 

We had them before, but being in a relationsionship with a pwBPD brings them out into a bright light. From idealization to seeing us the way they see themselves? Unsure, in pain, exaggerating things sometimes? It gets triggered and turned against us. I believe my ex showed real care for me, as well as acting like she only wanted brownie points or recognition for what she'd done. I'd also say their insecurities do the most damage.

pearl it almost sounds like you're painting the pwBPD black.   i don't think it's beneficial to use such broad strokes.  pwBPD have to meet at least 5 of the 9 DSM criteria ~ that's a possible 256 (!) manifestions/presentations of BPD.  thats a lot of different 'faces' of BPD.

my own xBPDgf, i can't say for sure 100%, she had N traits but i believe she was acting out of the fear (push/pull) not maliciousness.  someone with ASPD or NPD may, tho, and maybe your pwBPD leaned more in those directions?



gosh, in retrospect i hope i didn't come off as snarky, sure wasn't meant that way.  i like the way they set the boards up, so that everybody (both writer and reader) is in the best board(s) to get their needs met.  naturally our needs change over time ~ so i'll save you a seat, just in case.  best of luck to you, Traumatized!

 9

Ucmicu2

First I'm talking about full blown borderlines. Whatever I wrote in my posts, has been proven to me. Bpd is not very well understood. My husband as a psychiatrist who is specialised in BPD who talked about this disorder many years ago when I had no idea he has this disorder himself!

It is almost impossible BPD EXCIST on its own. Even waif borderlines (wolf in sheep skin) are highly manipulative and they know what they are doing! They are naturally highly skilled in brainwashing!

I tend to agree with Ucmicu2 pearl.

It's too easy to make broad generalisations about manipulation and 'evil' behaviour and intentions. And while some pwBPD may indeed manipulate on a conscious level, not everyone is spending their time trying to 'brainwash' those they are in contact with. I am not sure it is useful to speak of 'us' and 'them' with such ease either ... .

Don't get me wrong, I think my ex (for example) is doing things that I wouldn't expect of a person with his (apparent) insight and psychological cognisance so, either he is callous/indifferent or, he isn't as emotionally astute as I thought/he makes out ... and sometimes I do wonder if he takes pleasure from my pain (or if he is just repulsed by it) but even though there are shared traits, behaviours and attributes, there are a wide variety of pwBPD just as there is a wide variety of people/behaviours with any PD.

Um... .Evil does exist. There are evil people. Don't ever think there aren't.

Agreed that they come in all flavors.  The passive aggressive side of the pwBPD is what causes the manipulation.  It is done so that they can control you.  They want to feel like you won't leave and they generally lack control of themselves.  I would guess that most pwBPD have the passive aggressiveness, but I don't know.  Mine did.  She was aware of her actions most of the time I am sure.  When you lie to manipulate it is probably a pretty conscious act. 

It is crazy.  You go from loving this person more than anything in the world to realizing that they have this evil side that doesn't show itself until the mask comes off.  I remember at the end I said to her "I don't even know who you are"  How right I was.

I disagree Perfidy; these are people who were traumatized at a very young age, so young they couldn't make rational sense of it, and it got hardwired into their personalities.  They are doing the best they can to survive, just like all of us, and unfortunately they are unaware of their subconscious motivations, do what they do, and it ends up hurting people; in a sense we get to share that early trauma with them.

Think how hard it is to change who you are.  It's harder for them and most don't, so they live a life of perpetual pain, although they will share it.

Mine also had PA Waifed ... .he never raged but I know he was and is an extremely angry man at times - he told me a few weeks back that he had been experiencing 'homicidal rage' for weeks ... you wouldn't know it to look at him or talk to him ... it all comes out in PA behaviour and abject cruelty.

@Perdy ... I wasn't actually saying that there are not evil people or actions in the world ... .more that choosing the most evil behaviour/intentions and assigning those to 'all' pwBPD 'all' the time is perhaps not the most productive way of thinking :)

Calculated deliberate malicious behavior. It happens. I know what happened. Sick yes. Evil.

Yep, Even had that one thrown back at me when I didn't act the way he was expecting me to act- IE: agreeing with him

Fromhealtoheal

When my husband took his mask off his real personalty I witnessed was so sick! I can embarrass myself anymore than this! My dignity caused me to leave!

Yeah, mine too.  And it isn't her fault, but it is her responsibility, something very few of them accept and deal with.