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I took a stand last night.  My uBPDw was yelling at me through a door.  She wouldn't even unlock the door to the bedroom so I could speak with her.  I was trying to have a conversation.   I was trying to use the newly learned SET communications techniques, but she just kept getting angrier.  I said I don't want to have a conversation while I'm being yelled it.  It's not respectful.  She balked at this and said I'm blaming her for the problem.  I said that "no, I just want to have a respectful conversation, not one where I'm being yelled at.  Let me know when you want to have a respectful conversation and I'll gladly talk with you."  Anyway, she never came to me.  At least I have my self-respect for a change.  It's very scary to draw boundaries like this when I've let her crash through my boundaries for so long, especially when she gets angry and goes into rages.

We someone is dysregulated, SET isn't going to help.  The best thing is politely find space and let the storm blow over.  folie

Thanks.  What do you mean by "dysregulated"?

dysregulated means her emotions are so out of control, there is nearly zero chance of you being able to do or say anything to calm her down.  Emotions have taken over her brain, and there is no rational thought left.  A calm conversation is not possible.  At this point you are best just letting her be until she calms enough to actually talk about the issue that needs to be addressed.

I just read the following:

"Emotional caretaker

According to Kraft Goin MD (University of Southern California), "borderlines need a person who is a constant, continuing, empathic force in their lives; someone who can listen and handle being the target of intense rage and idealization while concurrently defining limits and boundaries with firmness and candor".  To be in this type of relationship, you must accept the role as emotional caretaker - consistently staying above it.  "

To me, being the target of intense rage is NOT defining limits and boundaries.   To me, being the target of intense rage is unacceptable.  Is that unreasonable of me?  Is it selfish of me to not want to be the emotional caretaker of my wife?  I'm married, but I real don't have a marriage partner as far as I'm concerned.  Another question - if I find it unacceptable to be the target of intense rage, can I still be the emotional caretaker of my wife?

I think its too late.  You've already been exposed to the anger and lashing out.   :)

startrekuser, you're clearly very frustrated and you are now among the ranks of the very frustrated who have come here over the last 15 years.   The first thing we tell everyone is to "Face the Facts".  Your wife has some relationship issues that are hardwired.  You can learn how to support her and try to turn this thing around, or you can leave. Two tough pathways.  The only choice you don't have is a quick fix or a magic pill.     

This is our reality.

The second point is, whether you're staying or going, its best to let go of your end of the fight right now.  You may be 100% in the right, but its not a battle you're going to win.  I'm not sure exactly what that would look like - maybe invite her on the trip and if she says no, say OK, you love her and go without.  Getting off the roller coaster and re-centering ourselves is wise.  Might take a bit.


To me, too. When the rage starts, politely take the dog for a walk.  Be cool.

You're 13 years into a marriage and things are not going to change overnight.  If this is really your boundary, it didn't it work in years 1-13, so it may need some re-establishing and that takes work and time.

I know its frustrating.  Maddening.  I've lived it.

Right now, you can choose the Undecided, Staying or Leaving Board and you will get advice consistent with those objectives.

Hope this helps.

We're here for you whichever pathway you chose.

Skip

Thanks Skip.  For now, I'm staying in the marriage and I want to learn how to deal with her behavior in the most constructive way possible.  Like you said, her behavior is maddening. 

So, I choose the Staying board, at least for now.  I can fix myself and maybe make my marriage tolerable or better.

So I'm dealing with a common situation.  She's upset about something and no matter what I say she gets angrier, so I leave the scene b/c I won't be subjected to her anger and yelling and raging.  So she says I blamed her for the problem when I said I'm walking away b/c of the yelling.  So I said when you're ready to speak respectfully come talk to me.  She never came to me.  The next day I go to work, then come home at the end of the day and she won't talk to me and is actually scared of me (or is just acting that way).  Crazy, right?  So I know that she wants me to take the initiative and come talk to her, but it's only so I give in completely, admit I was wrong, etc and take all the blame.  I really don't want to do that.  I'm much happier not talking to her b/c if I do, the blaming, anger will all start again.  Anyone have any recommendations?  Thanks.

Hey, startrekuser 

When I've been in situations like that (before finding the information on this site) with my Husband, things would escalate like that and he'd give me the silent treatment. Over things that made no sense to me, or over things I didn't even know what they were, or over things that I felt were unfair to me. Before learning the Communication Tools (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56206.msg913190#msg913190), I would keep trying to explain why he misunderstood me, or why what he was mad about didn't make any sense. I kept trying to understand what the problem was and defend myself. All that did was escalate his anger, and he would blow up, and then be stoic and ignore me. The pain I felt was immeasurable: for not being understood, for not being allowed to be heard, for being ignored. It really was hurtful, and messed up my self-esteem.

What I've found is that when he gets angry at me for some crazy thing now, I listen to his complaint, nod my head, really try to hear what is behind the anger. Sometimes I can figure it out and I can use S.E.T.: "I can tell that you are really angry, and you feel that I've been ignoring you. If I felt ignored, that would hurt me too... .I get it; my tone of voice must've seemed dismissive. I'm done with the laptop now; what do you need?" And I make sure my voice is sympathetic, and my expression is loving (it's not hard to do; I don't like making my husband feel hurt, and I really do love him).

Other times, if he's unwilling to talk (so that S.E.T. isn't an option), or if I really have no idea what I did wrong, I now know that I shouldn't be taking this personally--it's his emotions and not me that is the problem, and I just remove myself from him and do what I would normally do. No trying to get him to talk, not explaining myself, no questioning him, no trying to pull anything out of him to "figure this out". The thing is, there is no figuring this out, so I'm free to be kind to him and loving, but leave him to get over it himself.

Have you read the links to the right-hand side of this page? Have you ever checked out Radical Acceptance for family members (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=89910.0)? For me, there's some sort of difference in letting my husband work out his anger/silent treatment by not engaging, but in an understanding, loving way--instead of by feeling hurt by it and angry, and fuming inside with indignation and pride. The positive energy of leaving him alone with love, rather than the negative energy of ignoring him "back", makes it easier for him to get through his anger/silence and come back to me with love, too. Does any of that make sense?

At least, this is what has made things go better in my relationship... .

An important thing here is not to try to sell her your reality.

Whatever you do she will fight against it. Dont try to explain it. Do it again next time, she will react badly again. Then do it again and so on until she finds it pointless having dramas over it.

Whatever your actions are to be think them through beforehand so you know you are being fair and can stick to them. Dont try making up boundary actions in the moment, as backing down will make all future boundaries harder to maintain.

pwBPD resist changes, as that is like loosing control.

Can somebody please tell me what SET communications are or where I can find more info about it?

Thank you!

Over on the right menu here>> >

>Lessons>3.Tools

Sweet! Thank you very much!

Do you mean I shouldn't make up boundary actions when she crosses them?  Suppose I decide to start enforcing boundaries that I have ignored for a long time? Do I tell her that for now on I will not accept X, Y and Z or do I just wait until they happen and let her know I will not be accepting this behavior anymore?  Sitting down with her and giving her a list will bring on anger and everything else, so I figure I might as well just wait until the behavior occurs.  I thank G-d for this board.  I've been so lost for so long.  I used to be totally clueless and confused, thinking that everything was my fault.  Therapists were completely worthless.  Thanks. 

Another question.  How do I handle incessant blaming:  "You did this and it hurt our marriage.  It's your fault. You also did that and it hurt me.  You purposely do these things to get me REALLY angry... .and on and on and on and on"?

I can't stand listening to that BS.  What should I do?

You are right you don't need to discuss them with her.

The point is many of these things that already affect you are known to you. Think about them and what you are going to enact when they happen, before they happen. That way you are prepared in advance, rather than just make up an action in the moment. This will enable you to think it though objectively rather reactively.


Remove yourself. Words/demands/ultimatums will have no effect.

You cant stop her from doing anything. You can stop yourself from being subjected to things.

Whatever you choose to do, do it BEFORE it gets you angry.

This is the cattle prod technique.  Devise ultimatums, enforce with punishment.  Its not even nice for cattle.  *)

Read this.  The process is a little more involved and you implement it it stages and do it as cooperatively as possible. 

https://bpdfamily.com/content/values-and-boundaries

Conceptually, you're trying to "re-train" a relationship.

I feel this same way about my marriage/husband.

Thanks Skip.  This is the best tool I've seen so far on this site.

The way I see things going for me is the following:

1.  I establish strong boundaries and learn how to speak more in the SET manner.  I know this will take a long time.

2. Ask for things that I want/need in the relationship.  This can only be done after I've gained a lot confidence in establishing boundaries and mastered the techniques in step 1 above.

How does that sound? 

What has your experience been like?  Have you been able to set boundaries or improve your relationship?  It sounds like you haven't.

My experience with that kind of thing changed when I read a really good book: Codependent No More (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56458.0;all) by Melody Beattie. In it, she describes the kind of escalating situation that you are finding yourself in (and all of us have been in!) as like being in a hamster wheel. You (possibly inadvertently) do or say one thing, your wife then gets angry and rages over it, accusing you of the things that "push your buttons", and then you react back with anger and maybe denial or explanations or hurtful comments. The two of you are just running faster and faster in that hamster wheel, and the momentum can lead to confusion, pain, exhaustion.

What she suggests is that once you notice the wheel starts turning (hopefully with the first look or comment from your wife that indicates a dysregulation is about to happen), you jump off that hamster wheel so that she's running in it all by herself. It doesn't go as fast, and it could even stop spinning all together.

How do you do that? Well, the first thing is to not do what you usually do. Whether it's defending yourself, expressing anger or confusion or pain, or whatever it is that your knee-jerk reaction always is. Even just doing something different--anything--will stop the hamster wheel. It's not what is expected by her, and she will stop dead in her tracks most times. If you can't figure out a logical "different" thing to do (mine was to STOP defending myself, saying "What did I do? Why do you get so MAD about that? I didn't DO anything! This doesn't make SENSE!", then just do nothing. Be calm, be loving, walk away with love.

The changes I made were to not defend myself or express the fact that I was indignant, but to listen to his anger and validate it if I could (like I mentioned in my post above). And if I couldn't do that in any way, just show an empathetic, loving (but not condescending) face to him and remove myself in a friendly, loving manner. In a way, that was my "setting a boundary" that I wouldn't put up with the dysregulation, but I didn't do it in a negative way. Believe me, the hamster wheel stops when you don't give it the energy you used to. It's too hard for my Husband to run that thing as fast as it used to go, when I jump off of it 

I don't agree with using the term "emotional caretaker".  There is something about it that doesn't sit right with me.  I can see that learning to be a constant empathetic force would be good in any situation.  defining limits and boundaries with someone who is exhibiting intense rage and idealization is no doubt the healthiest response.   

I think it is perfectly reasonable to put up a boundary that shows your wife that you will not be the target of her intense rage.  You are showing her self respect and love at the same time.   


wow this takes so much self love.  So much self validation to accomplish.  When a borderline is not in reality and doesn't fight fair.  It's crazy making. Their own sense of low self worth is constantly projected onto their partner.  And it hurts deeply.   

Remember.  Its a relationship.  Its not just her/him.

We are often in a cycle of conflict, each person fueling the other.  Stopping that and replacing it with something else helps.  Sometimes remarkably. And overtime, things change, they adapt, you adapt.

This is the leadership - the caretaking - that you provide.  There are other ways too.

We have many members that have had success with this.

Its is no magic bullet, however.  It doesn't work overnight.  Some will not ever be responsive.  Some of us don't have the strength or skill of desire to heal things.

ok I understand... maybe I am seeing the word caretaker in the wrong way.  My mother was such an emotional prisoner to my BPDfather.  He needed her to "take care" of him.  On his terms.  And she was his slave.   She obviously did not have the tools and either did he. 

So you are saying that care taking is setting healthy boundaries.   Responding in love (true love).   I have so much to learn  :)   

That really is at the core of it... .responding in love.

I like that, blubee 

There's something that I really struggle with.  When she gets upset and the BPD behavior rears its ugly head, there is always some shred of truth to what she is saying.  There will be something that I did wrong and she takes that and really knows how to take advantage of the things that are important to me to try and make me feel guilty.  Her level of hurt and reaction are WAY out of proportion with the actual wrong that I committed.  I have to separate my action and what I should do to repent (apologize, etc) from her behavior.  

For example, we had a recent conflict and she blew up and so did I.  I finally gave in and apologized.  She didn't.  Then she said I need to beg her for forgiveness.  I said "I don't beg", which I think was the right thing to say and I considered that a big success on my part. There are other things that I agreed to that I consider a failure.  I don't want to go into it, but let's just say that it's something that I have to "un"-agree to.  That's the type of thing that I can't do anymore - agree to things I don't want to do b/c of her anger and rage.  She has continued with her BPD behavior ever since then (over a week now), so my appeasement meant nothing.  There will be other things I will "un"-agree to in the future.  First, I have to set my boundaries and stick with them.

That does make things harder, startrekuser: when something said by our spouse trips the guilt wire in us. I don't like that either, even while I know that the reaction is way over the top, and the supposed crime isn't as big as he thinks. It does take some work in my own head to deal with that... .Like, if I'm validating or using S.E.T., I make sure to acknowledge what I know is true, and I just kinda leave out what I know is overblown. If I'm kind enough with that, it does seem to do the trick.  


I, also, have learned not to make promises or acknowledgments that I can't hold to, during the heat of trying to stop a rage. In fact, I've learned to try to keep quiet about such things, and just be empathetic and understanding, and maybe not say anything. I've really learned not to flare up in anger in response to him. I just can't do that; it prolongs the episode or resulting silent treatment, or whatever. I had to learn to let my anger go... .I tell myself: "It's not him talking, it's his dysregulated emotions".

I know that it isn't easy to do this when we are so used to reacting with what we feel are "normal" reactions. I know that sometimes the episode is so strange, so out of left field, that it strikes us out of no where and we react before we think. I do that sometimes, too. It takes time and commitment and a real desire for the relationship to work to get out of our own emotion mind and use our wise mind in such situations. But you know what? Now that I've learned (and this didn't happen overnight!) how to use my "wise mind", when I react quickly using my "emotion mind", I realize it right away and I change my strategy to be wiser. One of us in this relationship needs to be the wise one 

That spark of truth beneath all the smoke is the reason we have to believe in our own reality.

If you feel you have a genuine reason to apologize be very careful how you word it and what you are apologizing for as they can interpret that as you taking responsibility for everything.

Often an apology is only for your own piece of mind, to know you have done the right thing. It is often better to do this sometime later. Not as an attempt to defuse the situation, as that rarely works.

When you say "Remove yourself", what do you mean?  Do you mean remove myself physically from the scene or just not let what she is saying affect me?  Thanks.

Thank you Rapt for the advice.  I'm still not sure what to do.  I tried speaking to my wife like I said and had to leave the conversation b/c of her abusive and disrespectful behavior.  I told her that when she's ready to have a respectful conversation to come to me.  Now she won't talk to me and avoids me like I have the plague.  I know that she wants me to come to her to talk, but I really don't want to.   A typical ending is her coming to me wondering why I wouldn't come to her to talk.  It might be in the middle of the night and she wakes me up.  Either way she'll be blaming and shaming me for not taking the initiative to speak to her.  What's the right thing to do? I think that if I take the initiative, I would be NOT enforcing a boundary that I just established.  I'm thinking of sending her a gentle email reminder of why I'm not taking the initiative and that she can come talk to me anytime I'm free (not when I'm sleeping, etc.).

Whatever it takes, if you can't shut it out, then yes remove yourself physically. I know that is not easy. It helps if you prepare the groundwork so this is an option when it occurs.

Sometimes knowing you can physically do it eases the trapped feeling so that you can let it wash easier if you stay, as that is what YOU are choosing to do. Feeling trapped disables our coping mechanism and raises stress levels

I've actually JUST FOUND this message board and it has been SOO freeing/comforting/helpful!... .  I have JUST started trying to implement SET and boundaries in our communication/everyday experience... .I actually think it has helped a little. 

Problem is, the last RAGE time of a few days last week almost entirely convinced me to get the heck out of here for sanity's sake... .I have some kind of emotional hardness and indifference growing inside that is making it harder and harder to deal with each additional RAGE time as they come... .I think somewhere deep inside is acknowledging how WRONG it is to be treated this way... .It is actually hard for me that the last few days have been relatively calm and cool and he has been very loving and talkative, communicating, concerned for how I feel about him... .He asked me if I have seen all the improvements our relationship has had over the last few months... .(there actually have been improvements in the way he has not been beating me up verbally with the details of my past life anymore thank God, but somehow that is being defeated by the angry tone, harsh, evil facial expressions, orders and demands when he wants something, and the choosing to just up and leave me standing there and driving away like he did a few times last week... .) I am fighting in internal desire for the next rage time to just happen, so I can justify the just plain unsettled feeling I have in the pit of my stomach that won't go away... .Is it that I've stopped believing the good parts?  It is a very strange, crazy feeling.

I like this.

I am thinking along these same lines.  I agree that the complaints have some basis in truth but are taken to an extreme so they really make me feel really inadequate and guilty, etc... .BUT I see a big need on my part to start "un-agreeing" to submitting myself to simply being the focus of what seems and feels like an all-out attempt of him trying to FIX and RECREATE ALL OF ME.  I didn't marry him because I needed to be "fixed".  I'm sure God is using it to refine me in general, but I believe I need to be stronger and stand up for what's right and wrong in relationships, even for my husband's sake... .It's gonna do him NO good to think it is OK to treat anyone the way it is happening currently when a RAGE occurs.

I think this is a great idea.  You get to express your important thoughts and reminders to her while not entering the "lion's den" of a conversation which would most likely turn abusive.  Hopefully she will read it with "open ears".

I'm going to do it, but the chances of her responding positively are btw slim and none.  I realized what the problem is here and it's another boundary that I need to establish.  I won't give in to "the silent treatment".  I always do one way or another.  So I will send that email and let her know about this boundary and that if she wants to have a conversation about the latest issue, she'll have to come to me at a convenient time.  I will stick to my plan even through all her manipulation.  She's threatening to move out and she has every right to do so and I will not give in to that.  Whether it's just manipulation or she really plans to move out, I don't know.  That's in G-ds hands.  I have to maintain my self respect.

Dear <name of uBPD wife> ,

You probably feel ignored by me right now since I am not coming to talk to you and that is a very painful feeling.  I care about how these things affect you.  You are important to me.

On Wednesday night, I came to talk to you and I had to experience conversation through a locked door, which included blaming and yelling.  Those are things that I won't suffer through anymore.  I can only be engaged in conversation that is respectful and I'm sure you feel the same way.  So my invitation is still open to have a respectful, positive conversation to resolve our latest issue and to make sure this type of issue doesn't repeat itself.  When you are ready to do that, come to me at a time that is convenient to both of us.  (Right before bedtime and in the middle of the night are not convenient for me.  Also, I don't like being woken up at any time unnecessarily).  I came to you to talk on Wednesday and the conversation was far from respectful, so now I would like you to come to me.   Let's resolve this issue and move on to build a happy marriage.

Love,  Startrek

That sounds very good!  You are validating her real feelings,  and also expressing your valid request for respect and healthy communication… . you also show you are seeking success and happiness with her in the future. Well done!  The results ARE in God's hands… but we all can bathe it in lots of prayer!  :)ear Lord,  let her ears be open! !

startrekuser,

I know you are looking for the answer and this may seem very reasonable from your side of the cycle of conflict, but this is a lot of conflict. You will not likely get a positive response to this letter - and if you received a similar letter from her, you would not respond favorably.

We can get so wrapped up in these battles, we can't see it, but to an outsider, its pretty clear.  This is why support groups are so great.   :)

Before we can have any meaningful conversation, we have to cool things down and open up the lines of communication.  

This is a step by step process.  Initially we need to put our agenda aside (only strategically) and focus on the other person.

You know her.  What does she want to hear right now?  How can you listen to her?.  This is leadership that is needed.  This is re-training the relationship.

Let's look at that first.

Here is a great video:

https://bpdfamily.blogspot.com/2013/10/the-importance-of-empathy-skills-when.html

Skip

startrekuser, I would be careful about sending notes they are invariably received as accusations which triggers defense and aggressive reactions. Once sent they can't be unsent and will join their pile of "evidence" to twist and throw back at you.

They increase the trench war mentality.

Actions invariable achieve more than words ever can when dealing with a pwBPD

This feeling is common. It is however destructive, a sign of resentment building up. Resentment is a relationship killer. Unless addressed it will escalate everything. You will be primed to snipe back and take a passive aggressive stance. The pwBPD will sense this, become more defensive in return. You head quickly into a bad place.

You need to break this cycle, which will mean taking a step back, learning to not take things as literally (good or bad), create yourself some space so that you can be more objective rather than reactive. being reactive is your part in the equation and the part you can control. It is also the part that makes things worse than they need be.

Skip, I don't know what she wants to hear.  Did you read my letter?  Is that what you were referring to?  You didn't quote my letter in your message so that's why I'm asking.  Thanks for your help.

I watched the above video and then started reading about empathy in the "How do we become more empathetic to the pwBPD in our life?" forum.  Frankly, I don't think I can empathize with the feelings of hurt (by me) my wife has expressed to me.  It's not in me.

Understandable.

She most likely feels the same.

This is why you are in conflict.

Resentments are often justified - but are they helpful? 

This may help:   bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=135831.0 (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=135831.0)

Thank you Skip for spending so much time responding to my posts.  I know that you are heavily involved with this web site and I'm sure there are many other forums you're involved in.

I feel like I've been in the same fight 1000 times and I've ended up on the mat, so to speak, every time.  I don't have any positive feelings for my wife.  There are times when we have peace and I praise her as much as possible and I feel like she's an acquaintance who I live with and is also a parent of our daughter, but I don't feel anything like loving feelings towards her.  Even when I take her out for the evening, I try to enjoy her company and to show her a good time, but the feeling isn't there.  To me, she's mostly my tormentor, my enemy, who can rise up and strike at me at any time.  There's no emotional intimacy and no physical intimacy (she refuses that). 

The main feeling I have about her is "I don't care".  I don't care what she says or what she thinks or what she feels.    I'll go along with her most of the time to keep the peace, but I mainly don't care anymore.  There was a time I was willing to do almost anything to save our relationship, but I don't feel that way anymore.  I don't feel like I have the energy to make an effort to feel empathy towards her.  I often just wish she would go away.  In fact, days that I spend without her are my favorite days.

It seems like her only emotion is anger when she's upset.  I keep thinking that all the times she was upset at me, that if she actually cried, I would have felt terrible.  Instead, she hurls abuse at me and I feel zero empathy towards her, whether the issue is valid or not.  And once she abuses me, I feel hardened towards her with no good feelings.

startrekuser, what are your goals? Where do you want to be?

A worthwhile future for you is not going to be achieved by drawing up battle lines and attempting to shoot it out. You can get stuck in that mode until something snaps.

Are you more in the undecided whether you want to stay camp, or are you committed to staying? You sound as though you are feeling a sense of terminal failure rather than just being lost.

It is obvious something needs to change to get rid of the this resentment one way or another.

What is there in this relationship for you that you feel is worth staying for?

How do you see yourself moving forward in the longer picture?

One thing that helped me have true empathy and understanding was when I did step back in an attempt to be more "objective than reactive" as was just stated previously and my eyes were opened to the fact that my husband when in an argument saw me as if he were a small child on the playground and I was a bully.

His emotional intelligence is more of a child. To him he was standing his ground and I was trying to push him around and steal his milk money.

And this would be over something like me saying "i think it would be good if we could learn some communication skills." Whatever I said pretty much he took as an attack that I was saying he "wasn't good enough." Then he'd defend. Then i'd defend. Then it was a whole silly and unnecessary fight.

Big things I take from this discussion and my own life are:

1- The definition of insane is to do the same thing over and over expecting a different outcome: so we have to make a change.

2- If we aren't making the change with the good of the r/s in mind and acting in love, don't bother.

3- LIVE your boundaries. (I am a huuuge talker and somehow thought a deluge of words might somehow convince him of what I wanted and needed--didn't work and didn't work some more. See point 1.)

Basically do as has been suggested and STEP AWAY FROM THE WHEEL. And use that Boundaries piece to REASSESS what you really want.

df99

Our daughter is worth staying for.  Yes, I do feel a sense of terminal failure and I've felt that way for a little over a year.  I feel like I can set boundaries, but that will make her more angry.  I don't feel like I can empathize  at this point.  My goals are to have a relationship where we are best friends and have a strong emotional and physical intimate relationship.  It just seems like we've failed so many times at achieving this and we are so far from it, that it seems impossible and I often feel empty and depressed over this.  On the other hand, I'm not one to give up so here I am.  Where I go and what I do next, I don't know.

It's not easy.  You are both pretty wounded right now.

Keep posting - keep working it.

I see what you are saying about the bully/child thing.  Obviously, it's an alternative reality, but maybe that's my wife's reality.  If that's the case, then maybe she feels like she has to retaliate in order to defend herself against me (the bully) in order to keep from being bullied.  Then, in reality, she ends up acting like a bully and sees herself as the victim.  It's crazy, but it makes sense.  It's ironic, because I'm the most mild mannered man.  I'm not threatening to anybody.

I read the whole thread and just wanted to reply to you, startrekuser.

It really helped me to understand that when triggered my uBPD fiancee is feeling like a little child.  And my logic or what I believe is rational are not going to go over well.  What others are stating about using validation is the only thing that worked for me when in conflict. 

And I hear you saying that you can't validate her 'hurt by me' emotions because that feels like giving in and 'being a doormat'.  And yet, there is always a nugget of truth in what the BPD person is saying. Try validating that nugget of truth, the emotions behind it. 

For example:

To end the silent treatment you have going on right now you might say something like:

(in person)

Honey, I miss you.  It is obvious you are still feeling hurt by the last interaction we had, can we set a time to talk about this?  (A time when kids are gone or asleep, neither one of you is late for work or other commitments, etc).

And she will likely go off on her tangent as she usually does. And you can validate the emotions behind what she is saying. Does she feel abandoned? Rejected? Scared? Alone? Criticized? Validation does not mean that you are agreeing with her that you wanted to scare her or abandon her or reject her or criticize her. Validation means that you are meeting her where she is, trying to understand what it is like to be her. 

Saying to her: "It sounds like you are feeling very angry because you feel I should be paying more attention to you, is that right?  I hear you. That is an awful way to feel.  What do you need from me right now?"

You aren't agreeing that you have abandoned her, you are agreeing that it feels terrible to feel abandoned!  Do you see the difference? I have not read any of your other threads so don't know what specific topics you are dealing with right now.

And if this deteriorates into yelling and namecalling, you have a right to lovingly disengage and state: "I don't feel safe being yelled at but would love to discuss this more after a break when we are both calmer."

Read up on Extinction Bursts, because you are likely to experience some if you continue to enforce your boundary of no yelling or namecalling.

I feel for you and know that this is a very hard place to be, at the beginning of this process. Good luck to you and keep getting great advice on here!

Thank you Olinda.  I think my wife's issues are related to older brother going back to childhood.  Apparently he got into trouble a lot and his father wanted to discipline him but his mother insisted on letting him be and the father gave in to the mother.  So there was a lot of turmoil in the house.  It doesn't sound like enough, though, to make my wife SO angry about it.  There could be more (worse) that she's not telling me

This is exactly it. My partner has tales of extreme bullying at every point in her live, at every work place, by all family members, and in every social setting. What is apparent now it was simply the result of people reacting to her trampling on their boundaries or not putting in her bit.

Ultimately she triggers everyone. The result is they either abandon her or push back (perceived bullying). Whichever result she is always the victim.

EXACTLY Waverider! My uBPDh has been the victim of entire companies he's worked for! lol

Startrekuser, i'm one of the mild-mannered ones myself. That's why I had such a hard time understanding why my H was doing what he was doing to me, saying what he was saying. i'd think "But I would never say that to him!"

Thanks Wave and thanks everyone for discussing this with me.  It really helps.  I'm definitely starting to think in another direction.  I want to try and empathize with my wife as difficult as it may be.  Tonight I wanted to give it a shot, but I can't get myself to do it.  Tomorrow I'll have to talk to a friend or friends to get some moral support.  I'm just not ready.

It's a mindset you can get to Startrekuser--

Since you've been feeling so hurt it's difficult to look at how she feels, that's absolutely a normal response! And in these intense r/s it's easy to lose sight of the person we are as separate from our loved one with BPD, we tend to get all mixed together in reacting to each other.

When we are able to take a step back, take a deep breath, and look from the standpoint of our knowledge and understanding of what difficulties our loved one is dealing with, the compassion and empathy will come.

The exciting bit is that YOU get to break the cycle of conflict. :)

I remember when I was a newlywed 14 years ago, my wife went off on me about something.  What that's behavior called - dys something)?  Anyway, her behavior seemed crazy and really scary to me. In fact I remember thinking: "I really screwed up my life by marrying this lunatic."  She was pregnant at the time.  I was calm and really tried to calm her down in a nice way.  Nothing worked.  Somehow this craziness became a normal discussion and she said "Starktrek - Help me!"  I said OK, but I never really knew what kind of help she needed.  Now, 14 years later, I'm beginning to understand.   

Dysregulation. It is when it becomes impossible to regulate the emotions, loss of control. There is little reasoning at this point. The mixed hormones during pregnancy combined with raised stressed levels would have triggered this. It is near impossible to "fix" someone in this state. All you can do is not make it worse, and give them space to get over the worst of it.

|iiii

I hope the lessons here and the attitudes taught make a difference in your life.  There is a lot you can do, and when it starts making a difference, you will feel better and so will she.

You're not going to fix her.  But you can lead the relationship improvement and try to motivate her.

And then you can evaluate your options with a clearer head and a clearer view of reality.

Thanks. I'm a nervous wreck.  Very stressed out and very tired. I'm going to see a therapist to help deal with all of this.

Good idea.

Keep posting.  We all learn from one another.

The problem I have right now in speaking to my wife is that I'm afraid of her.  Going to talk to her will be like entering the lions den.  That's how I view it.  I have to think of her as a scared, very small child who can't harm me.  Is that the right approach?  I just think of the things I know will happen - blaming, shaming, yelling, anger, cursing, raging.  I can leave at any point.  I have to remember that.  Of course, she gets more angry when I leave the conversation.  I guess I can just say that the conversation has become disrespectful so I'm going to take a break now.   We can resume in X minutes.  She might rage, so then I leave the scene or the house if necessary.

It is your belief in yourself that is holding you back

Once you learn the "fuse breaker" boundary of leaving if you feel abused that will give you more confidence, and feel less trapped.

I used to be afraid of approaching anyone in general, now that I have learned more skills in self belief, there are not many people who intimidate me.

So true!

I think my view of these arguments changed once I realized that, as Waverider said, I could remove myself from the situation if I felt disrespected. Also realizing that one of the things I valued was Respect gave me a better sense of "i am protecting who I am" by removing myself. And realizing that the shame/rage from my H was really about him having all those awful painful feelings and wanting to dump them elsewhere and I was there to receive them--it wasn't really even about me!

You're in a great place in your growth--your sense of self is reemerging. I remember when that started happening for me and I started to feel more control of my life again, I wasn't merely reacting to the raging. I could choose to respond! So different. :)

Suppose the disrespect starts immediately at the beginning of the conversation?

Then the conversation stops.

pwBPD want to dump their woes on someone, they need a conversation (though you might not consider it a "conversation" to do that.

Disrespect means they are not listening or open to your view anyway, so it is just a waste of time from your perspective.

I did it a few minutes ago.  I approached her and spoke to her about 90 seconds.  She was full of anger and said we're never going to talk.  I said we'll have to talk another time and walked away.  I'm glad I did it.  I consider it progress. 

I started off by saying:  "I miss you and you're obviously still upset about <the incident>.  So lets talk about it."

I feel very good right now.  I'll try again tomorrow or Sat.  I'm usually wiped out Friday night.

Thats good and it doesn't leave you feeling as beaten up

|iiii

The fact that I'm standing up for myself is really sending her further into dysphoria.  She sent me this long email full of accusations, lies and exaggerations. I documented it all by the way, which I've been doing for the last year or so.  So I sent back another email saying that I would rather discuss these things in person and that was it.  That got her ever more upset and she called me at work.  She keeps saying "if you want out of this relationship, just give me the word".  She says I won't see her tonight, whatever that means.  She might go to a hotel.

The ironic thing (among the many ironies and contradictions of a BPD) is that she keeps telling me she wants me to be a the leader in the relationship, yet, whenever I try to lead she fights me with her extreme BPD behavior.

She's really trying to get to me, but I've drawn the line.  She's calling me and emailing me continuously.  She's threatened to come to my office (45 minute drive) and wait for me at the exit.  I have told her that I want to talk in person at a time convenient to both of us  and b/c of her BPD, she can't stand that I've drawn this boundary.  I'm going to security to tell them that if she comes here, to send her away.  I'm not going to let her violate my boundary.  She's done it before - come to my office (different job) and I gave in and came out to talk to her.  Big mistake.  She actually called one of my coworkers to find out where I was.  I'm holding my ground this time.

I didn't go to security yet, but I did let her know in a loving way that I'm busy too talk and not to come her.

That's definitely headway. :)

One way to live the boundary of not being drawn into email arguments now that you've established the boundary of "no discussions by email" is to not answer them at all after this if they seem to be continuing a non-productive argument. And you're supposed to be working anyway, right? and email works terribly for this kind of stuff.

I found myself too easily drawn in because 1-- I was afraid to talk to my h in person because of his anger, and 2- I kept forgetting I didn't need to defend myself, it was counterproductive.

Remember to frame it in a loving attitude though, remembering to tell yourself "i'm doing this for my mental health and the health of our r/s." I know my H could feel it if I was not feeling respectful myself.


* I just read your newest post: "but I did let her know in a loving way" AWW well done!   That's hard when we feel under attack, but you did it!

This.  Yes, I've had the same exact problems!  In addition, her focus changes so much, that I get confused and she accuses me of contradicting myself and it's impossible for me to argue with that.  But, and it's a big but, it's all part of the FOG, so I now know that I shouldn't defend myself and just try to read her feelings and validate them.

I also broke an agreement that I made during one of her rages.  I told her I'm sorry, but I can't keep the agreement. She's been harping on that all day - I can't be trusted, not a good husband,etc. 

Now that I'm taking a step back, it's funny but sad at the same time.  I see her techniques.  She's using all the same buttons to try and push me to give in or argue,etc.  I just have to say:  "You must feel like you can't trust your husband.  That's an awful feeling.  If I couldn't trust my spouse, I would feel awful too."  I don't know if I will actually do that, but it's my goal to do that.  If it wasn't for this website, I would still get trapped in the same behavior and get nowhere.  I don't know if the empathy will actually work, but I'll give it a shot.

It does need taking that step back to see most of this, but it does become glaringly obvious when you do.

The trick now is to stay consistent. She is trying to see if she can break through using "Extinction Bursts". If you let her succeed it will make it harder to enforce boundaries in future as she will know if she keeps hammering away you are likely to cave. As a result boundaries need to be well thought out and important enough to you so you are not tempted to compromise.

On the other hand dont let them cross over into real controlling behavior, it is easy to get carried away.

I wish I could have seen what buttons of mine were being pushed sooner, because clearly that is giving you great insight into what the dynamics are and keeping you away from that horrible Groundhog Day reliving the same thing over and over and... .

I'd love to hear how it goes when you try doing that "if I couldn't trust my spouse I would feel awful too" thing. It sounds like a gift of understanding you'll be handing her. :)

I tried to talk to her and she turned her back on me.  Then later she came to me with a notebook full of printouts from the internet about how to handle your spouse's emotions and be a better spouse, etc.  She said she wouldn't talk to me until I read that and I said I can't do that, sorry.  I'm  not against reading that type of thing, but as a condition of talking, that's not something I can agree to.  I could have handled the situation better.  I knew she would throw some wrench that would throw me off my plan.

We finally talked last night and I focused on SET and boundaries.   Of course, she was herself, blaming me and telling me how I need to change and trying to get me to admit that I purposely upset her.  At one point, she was starting to get visiIbly angry and said that I was provoking her to go into a rage.  I said then this is a good time to take a 5 or 10 minute break from the conversation and I got up and walked away.  About 15 minutes later, we continued the conversation.

She thanked me for the effort I was making in trying to sympathize and then went back to her blaming.  She is really good and actually had me going for a couple of minutes where I was thinking that I was in the wrong.  She's SO convincing, but because of years of her abuse and my documenting a lot of it in the last year and what I've learned on this website, I didn't stay in that mode of thinking.  I did go off track a couple of times and tried to explain myself.  One of those times I thought it was justified and worth saying.    It's amazing to me how she shows me specific things she says I do or don't do (items listed in how to have a fair fight, for example) and how she breaks every single one of those "rules" on a regular basis!  I mean she should be recorded and used as a teaching aide in a psychology class on projecting.

Anyway, the end of the conversation involved the agreement that I broke.  If I had explained to her why I broke it, it would have started a huge fight, so I just said I can't keep by that agreement anymore b/c it would just cause more problems.  Well, she went on and on and on how it's ground for divorce, that I can't be trusted, that the fact that I made the agreement showed that I was a man with good character and the fact that I broke it showed that I'm not a man of good character.  I validated her just like this site says to do and I actually agreed that I broke the agreement b/c I did.  I owned up to it and I apologized.  None of this was good enough for her.  She started with her drama and anger and I said I have to leave the conversation now.  That was the end of it.   The irony is that there are many agreements we've made that she broke and she didn't tell me she's going to break the agreements, but instead just went ahead and broke them.  I didn't bring that up and I know that if I did, it wouldn't do me ANY good, b/c I DON'T COUNT in this relationship!  Excuse my venting.

So she's back to sending emails saying that I said and I quote: "I did nothing wrong and you are partially to blame".  She said she needs to keep away from me.   She goes by the same script every time.  And that's how I see it now - as a script.  If I continue to do the SET, I'm hoping she goes away from the script.  Maybe she'll see it's not working.

She's not talking to me today.  She said the only thing she will talk about is our relationship.  Frankly, there's really not much  left to say if she's just going to blame me again.   I think if we talked it would just be a repeat of last night.  She's also threatening to go see a divorce attorney and see a therapist that is very expensive.  I'm sure this is all being done to manipulate me knowing that I'll be upset at the expense.  She told me these things in emails.  Should I even respond?

hello fellow trekkie (I am assuming from your username :))

I have been reading this thread on and off and just want to say that I think you are so brave.  I admire your honesty and that you are reaching out for help.  If everyone did this, there would be a lot more healing out there.   

I saw from another post that maybe it would be better not to respond to her emails.  A uBPDb of mine would write me email after email.  And wouldn't even wait for a response from me.    This was how I understood that he was not in reality.  It just seems that if a response is necessary, to keep it simple.  So as not to exasperate the high emotion.   

If she is truly interested in going to therapy, have you ever thought about DBT?  She may start going with the wrong motive at first, but it will be worth it if she keeps going.  I know many places that do this kind of therapy will counsel the spouses and family members too.   If you are the only breadwinner, it would be a good boundary for you to make with her regarding the expense of the therapy.  And good even if she can pay her own way. 

I really really hope the lightbulb comes on for her soon startrekuser  :)  How is your wife's relationship with your child? 

I am a Star Trek fan, but not a "fanatic".  Let's just say that the show and I share something in common and that's the reason for the name.  

Thanks for the praise.  It has been tough over the last couple of weeks.  I've been suffering many stress-related disorders (lack of sleep, indigestion, headaches, backache), but since I've put myself out there and done what I need to do, I'm starting to feel better.  Thank G-d for this board because it's giving me the confidence to know that I'm not crazy and the tools to deal with my wife even though they may not work.  I think she's become more terrified b/c she's used to a certain game where she does the abusing and I agree that I've been bad, wrong etc and then I give in completely.  I'm not playing that game anymore and she doesn't like that.  Her reactions to our discussion last night have no basis in reality and there's nothing I can do about that.

In the past, I have spoken to the therapist that she's going to see and let him know that I think she's BPD.   A few weeks ago he was recommended to us by friends and I called him and spoke to him.  I told him I'm not coming to him unless it's for couples therapy, but I don't think that she wanted to go at that time.  So we'll see what happens.  I think you're right about the costs of the therapy and the attorney.  I should draw some sort of boundaries.  I think her goal is to go and complain about me, which I might help the therapist to see that something is not right with her.  It will get interesting if I then go see him and refute everything she's said.

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