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Were stuck in our own narcissism

We are faced with the terrifying reality BPDs face their entire lives which is facing the reality that who we think we are or were is a lie.  A persona a mask.  This is the cold hard truth.  Everyone is, it is a part of us.  What has been brought to the surface is all the parts of ourselves we hide from.  It hurts so bad because it is in conflict of who we like to think of ourselves as.

Narcissism can be used around these boards as if it is all bad - be mindful that there is a healthy narcissism, many therapists and books discuss this too.

What part of your own narcissistic traits has you posting such an "open-ended" post - a lot of directions this one could go?  Sounds like you are doing a lot of soul searching Blimblam.

If you read up on narcissistic qualities, we are suffering from a narcissistic wound.  My perception and I am no expert however for me.  Everything about me was perfect.  I was everything and then some.  Built up to think I was invincible.  My ego went through the roof and I could do no wrong with this woman.  I was 100 % perfection. 

Then piece by piece I was dismantled as a person.  My true reality that was grounded and functional was ripped apart.  That is a narcasistic wound but different.  A narcissist will drop and run with the first insult, we endured it for a very long time.  I became that way due to being built up like that.  Then I endured the dismantling of that reality.   For a narcissist they are never going to admit fault. 

It will always be someone else's fault and they were correct!  Their isn't many here who haven't asked the question, what if? 

It is valid and it keeps us tortured.  We are dealing with our own sense of self that has been ripped apart.  Now the process for me is questioning everything to rebuild that and be 'healthy' again. 

Yes sb I have been.  I will later once I can typ on a computer I can't keep up with my thought in a phone, start to cover different aspects of what I talk mean.

I'm not saying that our narcissism is good or bad it has the potential to do both.  But what can be good for me may harm you and I can be blinded by narcissism so that I can continue survcng without missing a step.  We vest our identity in the narcissism which views itself as seperate from everything else. It is a survival mechanism.

I had some realizations on how my narcissism interacted with the disorder and created the fantasy.  I'll get into this later.  What I can say now is most of my fantasy broke with these realizations and filled in most of a empty pit feeling I had in my chest.

Very good insight Aussie jj

I'm not referring to npd.  I agree were were conditioned to build a narcissistic fantasy by our exs. And the more we examine it the more we can break the bond when we take responsibility for our part.  Would you care to share what you have found so far?

Looking forward to seeing you elaborate on this... .I, too, had to let go of Disney and had to grow up and see people for who they were, including myself.  Not easy or fun, but necessary.

I don't understand it enough yet.  I have done the reading, looked at the patterns that occurred and I know what the outcome will be if I ever go back there.  To elaborate I have to understand myself a bit better and how I interacted in this dynamic. 

I am trying to understand how I accepted it I  the first place still.  Some of the e-mails in the history make me just ball my eyes out.  The absolute love what existed and was shared between us.  I, as everyone else here know that for me.  It was real.  The problem was it was perfect real.  Their was no middle ground and at the end it was a pain so total and brutal that I am still amazed by it. 

I have to accept that it was real for me.  It was all of that and then some.  I also sort of 'feel my feelings' and know what I'm experiencing at any given time.  These are real as well and I have been conditioned to shut them down and think they are wrong.  This is so painful as their is 3 years of abuse to process. 

I can elaborate a little bit now.  I am still typing on an I phone and cAnt type fast enough to keep up with my thoughts so it comes out fragmented. 

What happened was I realized how much of my fantasy of how I perceived the reality was a patch work of my narcissism and it patched up a part of a barier between my uncoincious repressed emotions and my concious awareness but I have an awareness that it is part of my narcissistic persona or ego or whatever my sense of self.  I could probably forget the feeling In my chest that still exists and repress it at this point. But I am trying to stay with it because I want to process as much as possible. 

The dominant somatic feeling is now in my gut.

Before I ask follow up, I want to make sure I understand what you are saying:


What (clinical or other) definition of narcissism are you using as your starting point?

Are you using ego and sense of self interchangeably?

In the opening post, you use the words "we are stuck in our own narcissism" - are you posting as the collective group or is it more "I am stuck" and wondering who feels the same way you do?

Thanks for continuing to elaborate - interesting train of thought.

I have read more psychology texts in the last six months than I can count. Studies of "self" and "attachment" and "relationships" and "intrapsychic" dynamics and "schemas" etc. I have explored schools of cognitive behavioral therapy, and gestalt, and psychodynamic theory.  And, yes, it has given me perspective and some insight and some understanding I did not possess before.

Did I have a "narcissistic injury" after abandonment? Sure.  Did I cling to my pain because letting go meant I would let go of part of me? Likely.  Was I trauma bonded? Probably.  Was I addicted in some way to my ex? It sure felt like it.

There's an inherent risk in all of this:  Sometimes when we diagnose ourselves, we immediately think we need "fixing." 

Here is my own truth, as I see it-- it was only when I dropped out of my brain and into my own emotions that my perspective changed.  That is when I started to relate much, much differently to the disaster of my relationship.  I reclaimed me.

When we just "feel" with awareness, we let ourselves be human.  Messy, alive, and authentic.

Just as life is fluid -- "self" is fluid.  It's like a river, ever shifting, ever changing.   All at the same time I am a son, a father, a divorced dad, a friend, an employee, a surfer, a bicyclist, a meditator, a heartbroken person, a loved person, a confused person, a moderately confident person [et cetera, et cetera].  I am sure I will note other things as my life evolves.

No matter how pained we feel, or how broken we feel, or shattered, or shamed, or traumatized -- there is a fundamental essence in each of us that is untarnished and authentic and waiting for us to reclaim.

Well the understanding came after breaking nc.  And the next day I couldn't barely move and I just laid there accepting defeat. Like the Pema chodrin quote I removed the story and just found comfort in the emptiness. I laid there like that for probably 5 or 6 hours just embracing it.

Later that day I was reading the forums and responding and a bunch of the ideas from people's experiences sort of came together and I had a realization that I am still experiencing.  The main portion of this realization happened over a period of about 3 hours and them all of a sudden I found a bunch of parts of myself again and felt the emptiness congeal this feeling started about 3 days ago when I began feeling a good intense heat in my chest start to fill in the emptiness.  

I have always sort of processed things this way it's starts as intention, I was wanting to take responsibility for my part of the interaction. Then there was a lot of confusion then I had to surrender to that somatic feeling then as I processed it I gained a lot of insights and had some epiphanies that my mind put into a contextual framework.  My Myers Briggs type is infp so it is very inline with how my personality type processes things. I definately had to let go of my mind trying to make sense of things before it was able to

I understand my role in te relationships now how and why we attached.  I have to find a good way to write it. It began as a feeling and a lot of fragmented memories that I sort of relived in a different light.

I cant quote on the phone however lettinggo14 that last paragraph is very true.  

The concept of a false self and a real self.  I have to look up something I found earlier and post here its another triangle!  

Rogers Conception of Self

The three sides of the triangle are composed of the:  

Perceived Self (how person sees self & and others see them)

The Real Self (how person really is)

Ideal Self (how person would like to be)

Now for this, a equalatral triangle is someone that is balanced.  They know where they want to be and have a accurate view of themselves.  Their is no ego overriding everything else.  Self aware individual.  

For someone with NPD or BPD their view of themselves is more squed towards the ideal self / perceived self.  They see themselves as oh so good and reality / self awareness isn't existant.  They cant see the factual reality of their actions or their true behaviours.  

I don't have the book I got this from.  It sort of lets you put yourself in a triangle and see what you are balance wise.  

ATM my perceived self is starting to be reigned back in.  I have been trained / conditioned to think I am bad, evil unworthy.  When this perception exists it is depression.  I am getting out of this.  Slowly but surely my perception of myself (perceived self) has been aligned closed to the real self and ideal self.  I am gaining balance again.  

Now you go back to the start of the BPD relationship and the triangle due to everything about us being perfect would have had us all looking like NPD/BPD scale of things.  We had a false perception of how good we were.  

Then it got broken down to the depression side of the triangle with our view of ourselves erroded.  Still the false perception but so far away from the ideal self that we are depressed.  

We are in the process of reclaiming our true authentic self.  Essentially the view that we hold of ourselves is balanced.  What we see isn't a lie built up to grandiose proportions or a person torn to shreds by abuse.  We are seeing ourselves for who we really are, acknowledge our faults and working on them while also seeing our strengths.  

Very insightful ajj thanks for posting that.  I think I came off as negative In my op.  But that post is totally inline with my concept I feel.  I think I need to explore it on pen and paper I'll type aspects of it when my internet on my computer is working.  That last post will give me some good words to decipher the concept as the insight was how I related to my BPD in the rs and I didn't really experience it in words.

I'm realizing expressing this is going to be a larger endeavor than I previously thought.  I experienced it like watching a film with a bunch of flashbacks.  But with pure emotion felt as a somatic experience enstead of background music telling me how to feel

I'm at work and don't have a lot of my stuff on me at present, trying to work through this off my experiences.   

If you were to stand back or observe yourself objectively as a person.  For a day week or year.  Study how you interact with people and conduct yourself in life.  That would be an objective view of the real you.  No emotions but what you actually are. 

Then if you were to ask yourself questions about how / what when etc with your daily life.  See how you interact with the world and be truthful in your answers their would be the perceived self. 

The ideal self is where you want to be.  What are your goals for tomorrow, next week and next year.  Are they realistic?  Are these perceptions of where you want to be the answers your giving me in the questions?   Do you have self awareness that you are not that person yet and acknowledge that you still need to do work. 

Any combination of these and you get the 'sense of self'.  Their is no correct answer here.  It is what you think of yourself and how realistic and accurate that is. 

So if my ideal self is someone who wins at everything and is super successful all conquering.   If that is who I want to be and I answer questions saying how good I am at everything and how much smarter I am than everyone else!  Then the reality.  I am onto my 5th job in 12 moths.  I get shuffled out as I don't interact with people properly and they cant work with me.  But it is always their fault because they didn't see the wisdom of my ways. 

That sense of self is a narcasist.  Its a false self. 

The narcissist's view is their reality, perception of myself is totally wrong.  It isn't objectivity and their is no balance. 

Does that sort of... .  flow a bit better, I'm having trouble as I don't have the texts to cheat from infront of me. 





For all of us our sense of self has changed, we have admitted a problem and we are working on our self awareness.  The narcissistic aspect is very true as we are dismantling a lie in many respects where we told ourselves how good life was and we didn't step out and objectively look at the real situation. 

For someone with a PD that self awareness is lacking.  My exBPD, multiple jobs, multiple career paths, multiple short term interests/hobbies.  Their is never any concistancy and it is always someone else's fault.  Unable to step out of her view and see objectively what she is doing.  She believes that for her, her perception of herself is so close to the ideal self and their is no awareness of the real self.  This is the false self, detached from reality.  Just like we were absorbed in the false self in the relationship detached from the reality of what it actually is.  Now I question her view I am questioning her reality.  I am therefore evil as I trigger the narcissistic wound or make her see the truth about herself for a brief period of time.  That objective view is so painful that they run from it instantly.  They don't want self awareness, it hurts to admit that they are not that ideal self. 

ok im going to try explaining it eventually I will probably be able to explain it a lot better.

the BPD person is attracted to the narcissistic image or persona we project into the world.  Like a muse they inspire it within us.  It doesn't matter to them if it authentic or not as long as we are happy to let them be a part of it. they attach to this avatar not who we are deep deep down.

I was probably like many of us in a hard time in my life when I met her and she inspired in me self esteem.  that was the beginning of me projecting value onto her.

she mirrored back that value and we both felt good.

later on we began hanging out and when she would have a episode where she dysregulated and needed for me to comfort her it inspired in me to sooth her and I felt a sort of paternal feeling like I was needed and important and made me feel valuable.  to do this I had to be strong for her and repress my own fear of seeing her like this.  These moments were trauma bonding moments. And what were actually crappy moments felt like good moments because my vulnerable narcissism was activated. Thinking of these moments as good moments is a part of the fantasy that is hard to let go of and they tie into the overall fantasy of thinking of myself as a good person. That is how I experienced it not her.  After wards she would reward me for that through her idealilizing.  This conditioned me to feel like my strength and love were good enough to get her through those little melt downs and repress my own fears.

Then there were a bunch of moments where she was not feeling good because of her inner turmoil but since I had to be strong for her I remember them as moments that were better than they actually were.

I can remember a time in the beginning where I was aware of red flags and if she pulled the stuff she did in the devaluing phase I would have left her in an instant.

once through all the idealizing and trauma bonding moments the fantasy was fully formed and I commited devaluing moments began.  But the fantasy was my own projection and when she showed me this other side I narcissistically thought like all the other times if I just hid my fear and believed that love would prevail like it always had before we would get through this and at first it did conditioning me to continue with this belief.  Then like antony said she would "up the ante."  This triggered me and I would defend the fantasy.  Eventually she would see me in pain and this further conditioned me to hide my fear and pain and become ore cautious and distant.  Repressing all this fear and pain drove it down to my core and opened those wounds making her trigger for me.

anyway after she left the struggle of detaching is hard because the fantasy is me as a valuable person that I falsely have associated with her. I am not even detaching from her at all just the narcissistc idea of myself that makes the memories seem better than they were. It is hard to let go of the idea of myself as a valuable good person because I have the fantasy of that attached to her. the struggle against that pain I felt was me trying to convince myself I am a good person a valuable person. That is the story that became attached to and accociated with pain in the devaluing stage.  As I held onto the idea of me as good enough, not even for her but for myself, I held onto that pain. As I struggled against the pain, shame, fear and those negative emotions and told myself I am a good person I have value I was just holding onto the pain. I had been conditioned to associate love, strength, my self esteem, even my identity with the fantasy I created in the relationship a fantasy that had become a trigger for pain.  So any thinking of myself as a valuable person even in other areas of my life triggers the pain. Even the idea of not showing my ex my pain triggers the pain.  Like letting go always says I had to let go of the story and just feel it and surrender to it accept defeat because like tausk always says the disorder always wins.

that makes sense.

 :)Urring the devaluing my entire reality snapped my mind too I couldn't even recognize myself in the mirror without convincing myself. I tumbled to the bottom of the rabbit hole and slipped between the cracks into the unconscious world of repressed fears and memories.  It became my reality.

She literally drove me insane it was also coupled with my busy schedule and lack of sleep from all the different stressors and finding out about her betrayal.

What I realized is we all have the sense of self that keeps all of those repressed truamas of the parts of ourself we don't want to see hidden in our unconscious.  They are a very real part of us that exists in each moment. we don't experience the totality of who we are despite our succeses in life or our achievments or any of that crap.  our experience is who we think we are and aspects of what is benath the surface.  WHo we think we are is just a part of us. a part to hide from what we got going on underneath.  How people perceive us is not who we are. How we act is a result of infinite variables of which the fear and everything else that is underneath has a lot more control than we realize.

Ive experieced the fear I know what the borderline is hiding from.  They want a distraction from it in finding a persona to attach to.  We need that persona also to distract ourselves from it but we can create our own.  We are all hiding from it no one wants to feel it but its is there in each and everyone of us.  It is why we try to find identity in things outside ourself and why we are so easily manipulated.  We are not our persona even our sense of self is just a layer.

the pain we are feeling is not just the tauama from our exs it is all the unconscious parts of ourself all our fears and things we don't want to experience in the moment all the things we hide from.  The layer on top of that which is our conscious experience is only a part of the whole we have developed a bunch of coping mechanisms and personas and schemas to hide from that part of ourselves.  We get stuck by trying to build back up that barrier to keep that part of ourself from seeping into our conscious experience. We lie to ourselves so we don't have to experience them and hide from them.

Untill I faced those fears and stopped fighting them I didn't know who I am.

After reading more on this thread, Blimblam - is it safe to say that your early ability to "meet the bar, raise the bar" pattern she set up gave you a sense of value and eventually not being able to meet the bar (no human could) you find yourself without core value or worth?

Is this the narcissism you refer to?

Blimblam, that makes sense. I still hover around the idea of I was as good as I can be, with her, and the rest is downhill from here. But the truth is, I was myself before I met her, and still am. Making changes along the way, for the better (that's what I'm aiming for). I agree with you, we look outside ourselves to help make sense of who we really are. When we 'find ourselves', at various times in our lives, it's often just another reflection we're seeing, in yet another mirror, of who we want to be more than who we are. It's deep, you're onto something. Working through the layers, there are always other layers. The best thing you can be is to be yourself, which you are even when you're lost, you know? I think the difference between pwBPD and those without is that 'we' choose a 'good' persona and stick with it, but pwBPD can never settle with just one. The constancy of the switches being flipped wears everybody out. Breaking free from dishonest patterns is key here.

Wow everyone, thank you.  Between this and a few other threads over the last couple days I have been able to understand a lot more of what I have experienced.  Its putting the knowledge into practice and also seeing how it applies to our past relationship dynamic.  

That understanding of ourselves is very powerful.  I want to ask that with these topics keep posting them and asking the questions.  I don't know if people are able to relate to what I am saying with my experiences however I can see the patterns, understand my own thinking through what others are posting here.  Its like a giant join the dots and I understand two or three things individually however I can link them together through others explaining their understanding.  

At the moment I am re-reading a few books and sort of concentrating on myself as opposed to BPD.  Understanding myself has enlightened me on how I was vulnerable to the BPD relationship dynamic.  

I have made a lot more progress linking knowledge that I already have through these threads so again thank you.  Putting the lessons others have learnt forward, sort of asking if they apply to me has given me more information about myself and my role.  

well it is the part of me that repressed the parts of myself I didn't want to experience.  

So all that exists is the moment.  How we experience the moment is subjective and what we are aware of is just a part of our subjective whole.  Our conscious awareness the one our persona and sense of self exists in  is just a layer.  Under that layer is everything we surpress and we do that by lying to ourselves.  The narcissistic injury has ripped a hole into the repressed parts of ourselves and the pain is how that is in conflict with the lies we have come to believe.  

for a while my mind slipped into  that repressed part of myself and their is no sense of self there at least not the one I have experienced my entire life. I found it again yesterday but it is just a part of me.  It is who I thought I was my entire life.  Even in that darkest part where I was in hell I found repressed parts of myself.  

I don't know what is underneath that unconscious layer.

well yes.  the thing about the pattern that I saw differently was the repressing parts of the reality, her reality.  It was narcissistic to think we shared the same reality.  I even lied to myself and look back at many of those moments as better than they were which is completely in contrast to her reality.  Her reality is much more like what we experience in the aftermath she is just better at coping with it by finding soothers and a persona to attach to that is not her own to distract her from it.

she her entire life is experiencing the part of ourself we hide from we are better at hiding from it and she wants to hide herself in our persona detached from that part of ourself.  At first she will build us up so we can be better at hiding from that part of ourselves.  She conciosly or uncociously conditions us to hide from that part of ourselves so she doesn't have to experience it either.

I am one day in a few years when over this re-read my journals and laugh at myself.  I will be able to enjoy life for what it is thanks to her. 

Not a lie or a false life but the real thing.  This woman should be put in jail for the abuse that she dishes out. 

I have spent a lot of time thinking about the unconscious mind -- frankly, I think I overthought it during my initial period of trying to cognitively put pieces together, especially as I thought about my Family of Origin (FOO).

Here's my non-clinical version of what I learned, and how I found a way to consider what might be in my own unconscious mind.

Our brains are magnificent & complex machines.  When we learn to ride a bike, for instance, it becomes second nature (our brains learn, and then just "know" what to do).  It's somewhat the same way with emotional learnings -- early on, even in infancy, we pick up on clues from our parents, or primary caregivers, and we create an emotional map that submerges like a river bed, and we figure out ways to keep us safe from pain, or in harmony with our environment [adaptively or maladaptively].  Throughout our lives our brains encode emotional experiences, and deeply emotional experiences -- especially traumatic ones -- have the ability to really imprint our brains with "implicit" learnings -- the stuff of the unconscious.

Neuroscience, over the last decade, has shown that implicit learnings -- even deep schemas -- can be unlocked and deleted or amended (see, for instance, any "coherence therapy" website for better explanation) with focused, therapeutic experience.  (Formerly, it was believed that such imprints were permanent... .)

We don't reveal the implicit learnings cognitively.  Instead, we look for symptoms that exist solely because of the encoded learnings.   And, from what I understand, there is not a single schema or code that needs to be cracked.  There can be multiple schemas and multiple codes with varying degrees.  

I'll use a personal example:  I met my ex-girlfriend following a difficult marriage & divorce.  I had about 4 months of very intense and amazing interaction with her during the idealization phase.  I endured so much drama following that phase (rather than breaking it off) because I had a deeply imprinted implicit emotional memory of her as "soul mate."  

I know now that it became an "unconscious" learning, because no matter how much my conscious brain said let go, I held on because "letting go" felt like erasure.  

Now, does this mean that there was some deeper unconscious longing for attachment that relates to my FOO?  Who knows.  (I don't know yet, but I'm pursuing the thinking).  What matters right now, however, is that I am aware of the specific "soul mate" encoding.  And, once I became aware of it, I started to challenge it with conscious and emotional attention (Do I still exist without her? Yes!  Can I still feel love without her? Yes!)

I'm not a clinician, but I hope that makes some sense.

the thing is they typically warn us.  It is our own narcissism that disregards what they are warning us of.  I am not even sure if they condition us consciously.  The dysregulation is a symptom of that profound fear, our own narcissism steps in to play to comfort them and we create a story of what a great person we are.  The red-flag are there we just were blinded by our own narcissism.

we are all hiding from the terrifying things we hide in our unconscious.  Pretty much everyone you will ever meet.

we try to hide from it, fight it. convince ourselves its not there. project it onto others to blame for it.  we run from it.  but none of this works.

surrender. defeat. acceptance

even when I thought I was accepting it I was lying to myself.  I thought I was surrendering and I was lying to myself. I accepted defeat I think.



I still feel the feeling in my chest though I still feel the feeling in my gut it is the only thing I know is true.

Could it be the realization/fact that you exist, and all that goes with that?

Respectfully, BB -- and I know you are doing hard work, so please take this as an alternative perspective (rather than a challenge):

I think we "cling" to what we have in our unconscious because it is how we "think" the world should work (even if maladaptive).  When we become aware of what we cling to, we can work it.

I really am at that point of starting to understand I cant help her.  She is disordered, toxic, damaged.  I have seen a fair bit of NPD I  her as well.  Very very dangerous individual and the mother of our son.  

By reaching out to her and trying to reconcile I grew so much more from that understanding however I have given her so much more ammunition for court.  She will have to bring it out and I will smile, say yes she has mental healthy problems so do I.  Lets get it all out their.  I care for her but I care for our son more.  

I have 5 journals of my thoughts and notes about everything that has occurred.  I have one that is just all different examples of her twisted thinking black/white etc and also idolisation / devaluation.  

She has some false accusations and the claim that I wont give up on her.  Seeing the cycle of abuse that last time did that for me.  Living it again has helped me so much.  The problem is more powerful than the person.  

I am not going to run away from my attempts to help her.  I may be frouned upon however I will say I have been true to myself to try and help someone who doesn't want help.  It has hurt me so much more.  Lets get the psyc evals under way and open up all of the records!  

I have accepted she wants no part in my life and I have also accepted that I don't want her to have any part in my life.  She is not capable of empathy nor recognising she has issues.  Lets bring them out, I wont hide from my problems lets hope she doesnt hide from hers.  

it makes sense.

I am pretty sure I crossed over that line into the unconscious when my mind snapped and it overlayed reality.  then the ptsd was like having all those fears resurfacing into my conscious awareness.  the thing is it is not logical and it is emotion based emotions become the experience of reality and it is terrible because they are the ones we never wanted to experience.

for me I think I may just cracked that soul mate code yesterday.  

I had to think about a time I saw things differently and when I saw everything as perfect.  There was a grey area for me where I though she was my soulmate but I had my doubts and watched her actions.  For me everything changed during a specific extremely traumatic bond where I basically vowed every last bit of my soul and life to her.

I asked myself how did I relate to the trauma bond?

How did she perceive that same experience?

How does that relate to the pain I am experiencing now?

how did she make me feel that inspired me to see soulmate?



there are some other questions I forgot... .The answer I got was a somatic one and a bunch of flashbacks.  I had to relive everything somatically and then a whole new way of seeing things in my mind appeared. I also had to think back of her and of me.

I got a foo answer already.

I really had focused on the trauma bond and my role in it. think vulnerable narcissism.

lol this is something I will need to contemplate for a while.

you are definitely still in the midst of things but you seem to have a good idea what direction you need to go in which is great.

the only piece of advice I can recommend for where you are at is being true to yourself in creating the space you need to for yourself to heal.

which is what you seem to be doing!  just as time goes on reevaluate what that is for you though because that may change.

I will have to contemplate this for a while also. lol

I was kind of thinking in terms of systems within systems. and the outer systems we are connected to are culture.  nature.   The inner system? I was thinking it might be a plane of existence of like energy and emotions that overlay this plane of existence. I really don't know though.

Thanks BB... .

If it wasn't for my son I would walk away, sell the house and move interstate.   Because of him, I can never run away from that responsibility.  I am actually afraid of her on such a deep level I subconciously thought I can go back their and put up with that so he doesn't. 

That when I think about it makes me scared.  Why should I sacrifice myself for her.  What example will that be showing our son.  In truth I can't even walk into the back room of the house still.  It makes me remember all the times I got cornered there and abused by her.  I am still in denial if I think I can change her. 

Will a psyc eval actually show her up as having these issues.  Will it show her as having BPD and then how do I highlight the effects it can have on a person and then on a child.  Will she accept the problem and go and get help, if she does I know it will be to get just enough to get control again not to fix the underlying issues. 

I really have a huge amount of respect for the people with BPD that seek out treatment and try to find out what is wrong with them to fix the problem.  If I am ever to meet a recovered BPD who has been through the years of work etc.  I am going to in person buy them a meal and thank them from the bottom of my heart. 

Even that comment, the problem is biased.  I will thank them for recognising a problem they had no choice in and very likely would do anything to get rid of. 

I will thank them for the other people that they have saved from the cycle by seeking treatment and thank them for the person they have become, whole. 

That may sound corny however I wont back off from that if I ever get the opportunity. 

yesterday after a full day of laying down like a shameless deadbeat slob in defeat getting up only to relieve myself for about 6 hours through most of the sunlight feeling the heaviness of my chest gluing me to the floor and like letting go always says just removing the story from  what I am feeling.  I came on here later and read one of turkishs posts and I started exploring that same thought you have that I highlighted.

I realized all that time I had been so hurt by her that I was afraid to even see her I just cant even handle it.  I really asked myself why? and why had I been so afraid to show her how hurt I had been? For where I was at in my journey it took me down the path to a big realization...

honestly today is the first day I can remember my mind has any sort of clarity at all in probably 9 months.

I really don't know how you folks with kids do it I am not that strong.

We don't have a choice.  If we did well it would be different.  Unfortunatelly for us their is no choice.  Fortunatelly for the kids involved we make that choice. 

I do hope one day she decides to abandon our son on one level.  That is so selfish as the  I wouldn't have to deal with her.  What would it do to him though ?

as the son of a BPD mom all I can say is find a way to find compassion for people with the disorder and educate him about it gently and without hinting about his mother. It will very likely be an incredible source of pain for him throughout his life.

I have put my life into ruin over and over because of relationships with BPD women it is my  self destructive pattern in life. I end up the guy that loves them probably the most of the majority of their relationships in life so they hate me the most and hurt me the most.

Finally someone I can relate to! I've been on these board for like over a year. When I reached my inner child about 6 months ago. I had the most horrible black hole feeling in my chest. I swear it was like I had no soul. It was horrid. I couldn't appreciate myself and so I could not appreciate anything. I too have knots in my stomach most of the time. I have pretty bad anxiety and my narcissism got so bad after the relationship that I went on some narcissistic tangent about figuring out reality in a logical way and also about saving her even though she's moved on. At one point I could explain the condition quite well. But I don't really care anymore.

Anyways, it's nice to see someone like me. I think the solution for us is to do good things for others so we feel good about ourselves. And also just doing nothing and facing our emotional reality. For me at least, I have to face a lot of pain still and learn to appreciate life in a present and simple way to shed my narcissism. I've spent most of my life being rather negative and always having my eye 10 steps ahead. I'll call it intelligent stupidity. :)

The biggest boon from all of this has been that since I now have intellectual wisdom, I have offered it to my parents and drastically improved my relationship with them. Because now I understand that when people hurt you, it's really all about them and their weaknesses and insecurities. Anyways, I'm sorry you're going through this. This crap really is like some of the most soul crushing stuff ever. Hope you feel better.

oh man, im on that figuring out reality trip too.  I mean its kind of fun Im having breakthroughs and sometimes I entertain the idea of creating a story or something with it. I still think about her too I don't think I will stop sort of ever on this one. I finally accepted she is not my soulmate yesterday.

yeah ive got to just go with my gut and heart... .and heal. 

layer by layer by layer... .

sometimes it is sort of exciting I guess still in the breakthroughs stage. 

Yeah I write a lot of poetry and lyrics. It has helped me a lot. I had been writing poems on and off for like 12 years or so. Unfortunately my narcissism has taken over my poetry too. It really saps the joy out of everything. I've gotta get rid of it so that I enjoy this stuff, ugh. I suggest you write, it really helps sometimes. Stories, poems, or a journal.

We all have to stop clarifying ourselves.  narcissistic this thay and what not. 

Ill ask something of you?  Would it be nice to have that emotional maturity of a 3 year old for about 5 minutes and just fully with no thoughts be able to embrace something 100% and engross ourselves in it.  Mindfullness without the effort!

I often wonder if it is compassion for my BPD mom that keeps me stuck wanting an apology from her I think it may be a huge part of it

Sorry if you have answered this before - are  you working with a Therapist on this very question?

I would if I could but I lost my ability to be ability to afford it recently.  Unfortunately I have to go the self help route but I am trying to get things in order to be able to commit to healing full time.  I've healed from a traumatic BPD rs before and I can remember what I did that worked.

Blim,

I disagree.

"WE" are not stuck in our own narcissism.

Not all of us are narcissistic.

You may be, yet at the same time ... .I wonder if this is more of the self-laceration and needing to accept the blame and not see your xBPD for who they are ?

If I understand correctly, people with BPD and narcissism are not going to stand up and say they have it ... .

By saying you are a narcissist there is a bit of ... .no, doubtful ... .in there.

Well I don't mean that in the sense of a pd.  what I mean is more like pride.  I think narcissism seems to carry a negative connotation and often see it in forums like this what is really apd or sociopathy.  Having a sense of pride can be a good thing but pride also blinds us to certain things.  I think if I had used the word pride enstead of narcissism what I am trying to say would be seen in a different light. 

Everyone I have encountered has a degree of Pride.  Pride is not necessarily a bad thing but pride lets us repress aspects of our experience. 

Pride is narcisissm and it can be healthy but it is our pride that keeps us stuck.

I kind of think the stigmatization of the concept of narcissism held at least me back from seeing my role In the rs. 

It was only after reading posts by member 2010 that I really started to even think about narcissism differently. 

Everyone likes to feel good about themselves. That feeling good about oneself is pride or narcissism it sees oneself as seperate from everything else. 

Think about the concepts like "swallowing your pride".  I think everyone can relate to that.  The pd is the inability to do that or unwillingness. 

But when we take pride in swallowing our pride that is once again another facet of pride. 

We are stuck in a hole.  What we are examining is our own narcism and all the complexities of it's facets. 

If I think about the moments I "swallowed my pride," it was a somatic experience that is why it is called swallowing ones pride. It actually felt a lot like the feeling in my chest that is the "narcissistic injury" from this broken rs with my ex. 

Pride or narcissism gives me a sense of self. It is not bad but it has the potential to hurt me like it did in this rs.  It wasn't because I was a bad person to believe in the power of love but it is narcissistic.

The borderline objectifies herself so she will be subsumed into our identity. The moments when we are strong for her to sooth her and she is soothed and rewards us I got a sense of pride from this.  It strengthened the bond to my pride I felt pride in these moments I didn't feel the terror she felt in them.  That pride was my own fantasy.  To let go of that bond I am really letting go of my pride not her. Focusing on her as the thing I am letting go of will keep me stuck because i was experiencing my pride not her. 

The pain is an illusion because the objectifies other I thought was experiencing reality the same as me wasn't the truth.  The truth is she was in a lot of pain I wasn't experiencing pain the way she was I had to focus on the positive to sooth her but the reality is much more complex than my subjective experience where I pushed down my fears to sooth her.  The illusion is thinking i was bonding to her. My sense of self becomes entwined with the idea I bonded to her but what I was experiencing was merely the pride I thought I lost when I lost the actual her. So It felt like I lost myself when I lost her but really the idea of her was just a part of me.  The pain is an illusion

We never lost our real self or our false self.

All those moments we thought we bonded to her we were bonding to the pride she inspired in us our "false self"

When she leaves we feel a loss of our false self because we think we bonded to her but that is the illusion.  That is the narcisistic injury.

So now we learn about the disorder and we focus on detaching from her and that keeps us stuck.

We are not letting go of her for most of us she is already gone.

Radically accept her experience was much different than our own. That what we really were bonding to was the narcissism/pride she inspired in us that we have falsely projected onto her as that object. That this narcissism/pride/false self is just a part of us and the pain is thinking we lost that part of ourself when we lost the object. That is the illusion that is so painfull.  

"We are eternal all this pain is an illusion" - Maynard James Keenan

Once sea_of_wound experiences this realization and write about it I think just reading it will wake most of us up I really think she writes that well.

The following is the best write up of my realization so far

   

Re: What I am reclaiming.

« Reply #9 on: Today at 02:00:18 AM »

Quote

What you experienced throughout the relationship was your own self reflected back at you.  She was just a mirror you projected your own pride or fantasy onto her. Her experience was radically different than yours you were just a distraction to her.  What you were really bonding to was the idealized version of yourself you saw in her eyes that's why she felt like your soulmate.  All those moments where you soothed her activated your vulnerable narcissism and you felt an sense of pride when she was soothed conditioning you to maintain the fantasy. The illusion is that she the object you identify as the projection of your self is one and the same. You are not letting go of her she is already gone. You are reclaiming the part of yourself you think you lost wen you lost the object. You can already feel that part of yourself and it feels like a gaping hole in your chest you never lost that part of yourself though that is the illusion that is so painfull. Realizing all you thought was her was really you, it was your own projection, own it because that's just a part of you.

The pain is the conflict thinking you need the object to feel that part of you again. The pain is your body saying hey I'm right here HELLO! I AM RIGHT HERE.  Accept defeat and surrender to that feeling in your body. It is waiting for you

It is pretty simple boderlines attach to narcisism because narcisism is our sense of self.  The degree of which we are blinded by our pride is individual.  In a relationship with a borderline they cultivate our narcisism so they can attach to it.  If we don't think we have a degree of narcism then we are blinded by it,  when we are blinded by our narcism it is dangerous and our relationship with our borderline exs are a perfect example of why. The game of thrones series illustrates it pretty well too.

It is who we think we are.  We go through life trying to make that narrative our reality. You can see it in group dynamics pretty clearly as people take on roles and the power struggle that ensues over the control of narrative.  It is the cosmic joke and it is absurd.  It isn't real.  I mean yes it is real in the context of our lives but we are stuck in it.  The borderline is there to set us free.  

Our pride blinds us.  Our pride keeps us stuck and it is the conflict of our pride and what lies beneath that causes us suffering and stuck in our schemas.  


I detached in the last 72 hours.  I regained my sense of self  but the main thing I learned is it is an illusion.  There is a whole other plain of existance overlying this one beyond the physical. An energetic one, one of the mind.  The false sense of self convinces us we are seperate from everything why the heck else would people do so much horrible crap?  Because they don't know who they are which is everything what you do onto others you do to yourself.  You screw someone over well they are you and you screwed yourself over.  

Look at society destroying the earth that is us we are destroying.  

The illusion is the object we identify as the projection of ourself is one in the same.

Actually my sense of self is the only thing that is real but the idea that I am seperate from anything is my false self and that is the conflict.  But I only get to experience myself from my body holding me.

www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/index.php?/topic/29854-obsessive-philosophical-thoughts/ (http://www.dpselfhelp.com/forum/index.php?/topic/29854-obsessive-philosophical-thoughts/)

Think this might help you Blimblam, I suffered from it for like 2 years post break up and have probably had some of it all of my life. Meditation actually made it go through the roof because I tried to perfectly "be", which you can't do. I'm guessing since you remind me of myself so much you suffer from it and also very severe disassociation. What helps me a lot is to keep reminding myself to listen and observe instead of going off into my own thoughts all of the time. Anyways, good luck. Do as you please, just trying to help.

I'm in the same boat as you, 2.5 year old son, she was pregnant four months into our relationship. She trapped me.

it was a fairy tale to begin with, once she was pregnant I was screwed. That's when she became the living hell.

I can't walk away, I have a child with her and I need to protect him from her. I hope karma exists because payback is well and truly needed.

Well I have only had it happen. Few times in my life and  I have had periods of dicasosiation when I wasn't in the propper space to process what I knew was bothering me.   The few times I had a bunch of thoughts like this In  my life led to periods where I was intensely in the moment untill I would get lost in a relationship with a woman and lose myself again.

I think I found my answer it is that last line I wrote it is the realization that allowed me to detache from the soulmate bond.  I'm glad I was able to get it into words because I experienced it as a bunch of interconnected thoughts and relived the relationship in a bunch of flashbacks and I could feel it refilling the hole in my chest.

The problem is when trying to come up with a theory of everything.  I accept that I am experiencing the world from my subjective experience and there are things I will never know.  The last time I had a bunch of realizations like this once I found my answers I was extremely present in the moment.  So present in the moment I could read people incredibly well and I became a Infj from an infp Myers Briggs. I pulled off saving a rainforest by playing it like a chess board and putting a bunch of things in motion.

I might as well go with it and pursue the ideas. The first time in my life it happened it was like all of a sudden I understood art on a whole new level.  It is not bad I mean the guys who made all those myths and created those archetypes and what not probably had the same types of experiences to be able to come up with it.

It is just moments of insight.  The problems is trying to force it which I am not it is just flowing through me.

DBT as an entire skillset is beneficial for everyone, not just BPD.  It is like going to emotional kindergarten  |iiii

Thank u sb you are a gentle soul.  

I found myself again.  I feel amazing I reconnected to my source energy

We are all one mind

Now I'm back to the uncomfortable feeling that's ok though I'll work through this. This probably sounds strange but the key for me has been to stay with the uncomfortable feeling and try to let go of my thoughts them once I have experienced enough of that uncomfortable feeling I get answers and my mind puts pieces of the puzzlw together and I experience it as a psychosomatic release.  I usually get a big surge of energy at some point after and I think it's over but them I return back to that uncomfortable feeling once again.

All this pain is an illusion we internaliZed by ignoring our own source energy and thinking we are this "thing" we are interacting with it's not who we are. The pain I who you are trying to experience this body holding it.

Man, there is such healthy insight on these boards.

Thanks seeker

So today I had a conversation with a sociopath and hung out with two of them together.  The one I talked to admitted he was detached from this thing we are stuck in and he can see "nons" stuck in it.  When I talked to him about the source energy he had no idea what I was talking about. He only knows this thing we are stuck in but he sees it objectively. 

To him it is like a playground. The other sociopath sees it like a play ground to and he was really funny and telling stories about messing with people and tormenting them.  They are more aware of this thing than we are.  If this place is a playground for sociopaths and they see us as blind to where we are then what is this place?  This place we are stuck in? 

We are afraid of accepting what this place is. 

And by this place I'm not referring to BPD family.  I'm talking about this "reality" we are experiencing.   

Think about this

Studies have shown that a very large percentage of upper management of corporations are run by sociopaths. 

The system we live in is run by sociopaths they create the conditions in society to perpetuate their own existance. 

We are living in a world of their creation.  This is their playground.  Where are we?

Hi all,

I can certainly recognise Narcissistic traits but I also accept that there's a broad spectrum and that some narcism is healthy. I don't think I have NPD  

I do recognise that at times my perception and understanding of other people and their behaviour can be distorted and unhealthy.

And despite concrete evidence I found it hard to really accept that others can have a profoundly different world view to mine

I think that too much self analysis can be be unhealthy and become a trap. I definitely have a strong tendency to detach from the here and now, from my feelings and get lost in rumination and fantasy. I'm working on this with meditation

But, I can also see that some of my behaviour is self destructive and unhealthy and makes me unhappy.

I really want to change this and be as happy and healthy as I can

This is where a good T can help.

So that's my mission statement…

Learning to understand myself better, accept myself as healthily as I can while working on the parts of me that are undeveloped and immature.

Easy peasy  :)

Reforming

I'll keep you all posted

Reforming

I am glad you are inspecting your narcism and accepting it is a part of you.  It is a part of everyone unless you are the Buddha or something.  The conflict  between our emotions and Our narcisism and our underlying fear keeps us blind to a lot of what is going on In the moment.   What's going on that is the only reality for a sociopath. And a part of reality the borderline is in.

And while our narcisism can be a healthy coping mechanism for developing a well defined persona that is not who you are. It is merely a part of this place we are stuck in

Our narcisism helps us repress our fears but what we are looking for is hidden in our fears. 

Hmmmm.  

I have to put in here, their are good and bad everyone's.  Good narcs, good sociopaths and good ppl with BPD

BPD.

DBT, invented by M.Leinhnman?  Says she thinks she had BPD.  Used that pain to grow and develop a solution for a problem.  Overcame, understood accepted and grew from an 'illness'.  How many people has she helped/saved we will never know.  

NPD.  

My boss, hes quiting, his NPD is taking him to greener pastures.  Someone will have to help me out for NPD example.  

ASPD

A friend who I grew up with.  :)iagnosed psycopath.   He didn't understand why with some things he didn't or wasn't phased by the violence or situations that makes others stop.  Now doing an admin job that he is out of the army, traveling home on the train a old lady got mugged by 2 ppl one with a knife.  A normal person backs off, he went and intervened.  Needless to say who here wouldn't be fearful of that situation.  For him, problem, do XYZ problem solved and we move on.  The other side there are the 2 guys mugging an old lady.  Probably some traits as well.  Point is their are good and bad, ppl that know left and right.  

All of us have issues, its how we accept those issues and work with them or solve them.  The traits that make up these disorders are human traits we all have them.   When you get wicked drunk that's harming your body.  So we have all self harmed at some stage,  we have all disosiated, all feared abandonment.  But does it dictate our life.  

Well written Aussie,

Demonising the ill is not only wrong - it's a cul de sac.

I don't believe that I'm living in a world filled with dangerous disordered aliens.

Sure there are disordered people out there but it's about degrees.

And they're human just like us, we share many of their traits and these disorders occur across a broad spectrum

It's how we respond and interact with disordered people that matters and says a lot about who we really are

Reforming

Aussie your insight is beautiful and exactly to the tee how I feel. Your description of being very functional before the r/s and then idealized to the point of incredible perfection.   And then broken down bit by bit by bit.  My T told me as high as they put us on the pedestal is as low and hard that they will crash us to the ground.   This is my story.

I am a feel what I feel type of person too. I have never masked that or ever needed too.   I  am very authentic in my feelings and my emotions and my sincerity.  I say what I mean and I mean what I say. Always. I thought he was too. In fact, its very difficult for me to believe he was not still to this day.  All the deep sharing we gave to one another. We talked about everything. Truly everything so openly.  I cant believe those times were not real.

Yes, the emails in the history make me crumble when I read them.  I feel all that deep love being given and received between two very present partners. .  That was very, very real.  For me. And I still believe for him.  I really dont think that can be faked to that extreme. Very real and just a beautiful love between us that grew soo very deep.  It's been more than difficult to have to continually reflect on my very real feelings and try to reframe them into something that shows a defect in me. Sincerity and authenticity in loving someone doesn't feel like a defect. But now I have to question that which was real and true.

There was no middle ground to temper those real feelings for me either as you say. Nothing to make me feel anything but genuine love.  For either of us.  Which is why it is so incredibly difficult to process the whole thing even yet.  Went from deep, deep love to abandonment with no closure.  No " event" happened to change the love.  He just left me. And acts now like I never existed. 

Still hurts very much when I let my heart go there. Just beyond difficult in every way to process. 

I agree that it is definately a broad very broad spectrum.  The aspd guy i talked to said he gets to doing his lying and stealing at work he is a car dealer.  And he does his heat to do what is considered "good" by the people close to him or that are important to the people close. To him.  He doesn't care about other people though.  I asked him about good and bad and he really didn't understand the concept. He only understand the system or reward and punishment and not the one based of any idea of morality only the of weighing the consequences of his actions.  He sees something other people are blind to how the "game" works. It is really only about survival for him and finding ways to feel good and he tries to find constructive ways that provide people what they are looking for. And he understands just how much people are in some kind of denial.  Basically their very Essence is a lie and they are trying to show us something about how this place we are in works. 

See,  good and bad black and white these are concepts that keep us stuck to not seeing what is going on.  There is only consequences in this place we live in.  He tried to get me to "explain what I meant" by good and bad or give him clues and I didn't.  He said look I'm trying to see what you want to see to give you but that's not real to him that is in me an existance I perpetuate.  There are only social structures to be navigated to him.  He said he just tries to find our what people want to see and give it to them. He realized I wasn't falling for any of his bait to lie to myself so he gave me a pretty straight up answer about everything.  He said we chose to torment ourselves by believing the lies and that people want to be lied to they don't want to see, this aspect if reality that is the one he is always present in that allows him so much influence.

Basically what he sees us stuck in is fear. And the lie is to comfort us from seeing how things really are.

They constantly are dropping clues to test our lie and our fear keeps us stuck in it.  When we refuse to accept what they are showing us we go deeper into our fantasy. He even tried to make me feel insecure about just realizing this.  Also we talked about borderline chicks and he said once he realizes they are he doesn't keep them around because they are draining.  Even he runs from them he doesn't see it right away either.  He said they are looking for something that doesn't exist. 

That is when I understood the disconnect from the source energy.  Borderlines are trying to find it. He is stuck in this realm we are ignorant to that convinces us it is something it is not.  When I began telling his the thing the borderline is looking for does exist.  He tried to make me feel stupid but he tried a few times to give me doubt or fear and I briefly felt it but I didn't let it penetrate me and I think he even got kind of scared of me.

It is this thing he doesn't believe exists that we and the borderline are seeking. Which we obviously are looking for outside ourselves in a world it doesn't exist in.  Their world the sociopaths playground.  It is within us.  The source is bright and endless

When we are fearless the sociopath has no power over us.   Their power is that we will lie to ourselves because we are afraid.  Afraid to confront the reality which is the only one they know.

The lie we tell ourselves is we are

Not afraid it doesn't bother me.

Maybe it

Bothers you but not me.

It is that aspect of our psyche that allows us to be manipulated and controlled

Why does the sociopath outwit us what is is it they are aware of we are not?   What is it we are lacking awareness of?  Why do we accept their lies? What are we in denial of?

Blim,

Just because people see things different ways does not mean a person is out-witted or delusional or anything.

Each individual is a one-of-a-kind.

And though traits can be common between people, and from shared traits come labels such as aspd or BPD, the history and personality and thoughts and emotions behind all of it is different.

Everyone is unique.

It is true that people do not want to face reality.

If they did, our world would be a different place. Unfortunately, people who are authentic, speak truth, and put themselves out there will get shot down ... .and sometimes literally shot.

Who wants to face the fact that one day, death will occur ... .instead, it is easier to believe in a lie that we are always young, never age, things are always beautiful, love is easy, and we deserve the best.

Facing reality is liberating. And our BPDs FORCE US TO DO THIS.

And once we face the reality of how we feel when being berated, pushed and pulled, thrown up and slammed down ... .we choose a life that is fulfilling and emotionally stable and secure.

Sociopaths do not have any advantage over anyone who is aware.

Neither do BPDs.

Until a person finds and grounds within their own center, then balanced or imbalanced people can be a detriment.

It isn't always negative people who can cause harm.

*mod*

This is a worthwhile topic and it's reached the post limit. You are welcome with creating a new thread on this topic.