BPDFamily.com

I told my separated uBPD wife that I have decided that I want nurturing in my life. I want to be nurtured.

She explained to me that she was very nurturing in other relationships but that she has not nurtured me for 14 years, for a "plethora of reasons", all of them my fault.

My response was. "I don't give a toss if you have or haven't for 14 years, I'd like you to start now please?"

She also said "trust me as I unfold".

I'm not entirely sure what that means, but my question is. Can they nurture a spouse or not? I'm thinking not.

My uBPDxw was NEVER nurturing towards me in out 18yr marriage. It was always me nurturing and taking care of her. She just didn't have it in her. I was always there for her whenever she was sick or down about something, etc. she was never mean or nasty and not really the raging type. She is the waif type and always was playing the victim role so I could take care of her. Heck she would even seem to be mad at me if I was ever sick. I would have to fend for myself.

I never felt appreciated... .God I don't miss that!

MWC... .*)

My uBPDgf is nurturing.  When I am sick everything is done for me.  What I would like more is her nurturing our relationship.  There it seems like I am the only one.

I have been wondering the same thing. My pwBPD have made some strides forward recently. We still have a very long way to go.

I have to wonder, even in recovery will she be able to nurture? Can I finally relax and just be me again? Can I simply not feel good or be sick one day and not only NOT have a huge fight, but have her be comforting to me?

I am not sure if that part ever existed. After 20+ years of marriage I simply cannot recall. I know it has not existed in the last 10 years.

I guess some small part of me does not even want to put the effort in if this is not possible. The other part of me says it does not matter and I have to do this. I am tough enough and mature enough to nurture myself and I have to do it because I love my wife, need to see her get better for herself and our children.

Mine would be nurturing to a point.  If I was hurt she would make me do everything the doctor said, but if I was actually sick, with the flu or something, she still expected me to take care of everything and would actually be upset if I just wanted to lay around.  At one point when I had strep throat and a high fever, she was upset that our bank account was overdrawn and demanded I take care of it.  There had been a bank error, and I had to call and get it fixed.  We both had a stomach bug at the same time and she got upset that I was laying on the couch and not taking care of the kids.  She would be nurturing as long I went along with what she wanted, like accepting that I am the disordered one.  She would encourage me to get counseling and then get upset that I was talking about her to my T.  Or when I was really depressed, she basically badgered me and told me that I was just playing the victim and not really dealing with the real issues as I started to notice things about myself like I seek approval and not getting it makes me very upset.  I tried explaining this, but she didn't understand and told me I was full of BS.

I'd bet big money that is a complete lie.  If she was very nurturing in other relationships, chances are she wouldn't have been single when she met you.  This seems to touch on something pwBPD tend to throw at us when they are upset - that all their previous partners were better than us and it's our poor relationship skills that lead them to treat us poorly.  They can't even begin to contemplate the irrationality of that statement alone!

Back to your original question - in their mind they may be nurturing.  But their definition of that word is different than ours.  In my r/s the extent of nurturing may include her getting me a glass of water when she is up or cuddling with me.  Note the latter is really about her, that she needs/wants the cuddling too.  And when I am sick or having a bad day, I will usually get an, "aww, what's wrong, anything I can do for you?" But that is about the extent of it.  In a year I haven't had a day where she goes out of her way to take care of me or do things for me in order to help me feel better.  No coming home from work to a surprise dinner.  No surprise gifts.  I've come to not expect much from her, and look for validation an nurturing elsewhere (or from myself).

IME, I would say that it depends on what phase you are in with them.  My pwPD is an excellent nurturer if I am in a white phase and not at all if I am painted black.

Perhaps in the beginning of the relationship during the "honeymoon" phase to set the hook.

bruceli -

'Honeymoon" phase is an act.  True nurturing requires some selflessness, and even though the acts may seem nurturing at first, the selflessness was never there.  And that's still the way it is.  When she does things around the house, the reason is because she feels ashamed that she is doing nothing and she feels that if she doesn't I will leave her.  If she was motivated by selflessness, than I don't think she would be so challenged to initiate. 

Thanks for your comments all.

Maxsterling, she didn't really have any serious relationships before me. A few boyfriends, but they were very shortlived. Perhaps they saw things I didn't - Oh dear :-)

Tayana, MWC, I don't think they can caretake someone who is sick.  I guess in their mind the person who happens to be their spouse is now 'faulty', and needs to get back to work as soon as possible. No empathy!

OK yesterday, I refused to let this go. I highlighted all the victim playing, blaming, evasion tactics, guilt (I just can't put up with it now that I can see it) and she started stressing. Today started with all the usual dysregulation fare. Criticising the children, blaming me for stuff and asking me for money. I think she is realising that her idea of nurturing and mine are very, very different.

So I let rip I'm afraid. I said I feel like a money donor, emotional support donor, sperm donor, and I ask for her to do some research into what it means to nurture a man. It freaking takes 4 hours and 27 emails to get it through to her that I'm actually not backing down on this one. It may be a marriage breaker folks. I just want to freaking have some nurturing in return for all the crap I put up with.

She committed to all sorts of other things. But nurturing... .ah... .no. Perhaps nurturing leads to intimacy, which I assume is the other big no no.

To her credit, she acknowledged my feelings. So CBT really does work LOL :-)

So she realised that I'm really angry, did some quick googling about nurturing a man's ego, and tells me "It actually wasn't that difficult to research"? and that "A woman should never try and change a man, that's how to nurture them". I chose to compliment her for doing something. But I'm fast realising that I will need to find my nurturing elsewhere, if I choose to stay married to her. She actually doesn't have a clue about nurturing herself, me, the children or old boyfriends :-)

It just feels like I have to give up on all the good stuff if I stay married to her: nurturing, intimacy, love, companionship, friendship. Jeez, what's left?

I really want this in my relationship. I really want intimacy, and nurturing is part of that.

This really is a cruel disease. What to do?

So what you're saying is the prognosis is not that good for nurturing any time soon? :-)

I hadn't thought about them having a very different definition of nurturing. When I am sick or incapacitated, my husband is great. He is a great little house boy. He will cook for me and bring me things. He seems to actually like it when I am totally dependent on him. But, I have to request everything. There is no independent thought on his part. As for surprises, there are none.

One of the things that really made all of this stand out for me was the fact that I have a relationship on the side. (I know. It isn't right but I am not willing to give it up yet.) The first time my friend took me to lunch, I ordered a salad. They brought it to me while I was in the restroom. He asked the waiter to bring extra dressing. My husband would never do anything like that for me. And my friend seems to intuitively know things. It is odd because I pay attention to my husband and I know what he likes and dislikes and I can anticipate a lot of things about him. My husband cannot do those things.

If I am at a weak point and feel like I am faltering, my husband remains oblivious. Before I strayed, I begged my husband for support, help, nurturing, anything. I told him that I felt like I was drowning because I was so exhausted taking care of everyone. I got nothing. He sat there like a dear in the headlights. Heck, I asked him to plan a date for our wedding anniversary and he couldn't even do that. We had to discuss it and it became this long drawn out ordeal. All I wanted was a social activity WITH my husband where I didn't have to plan everything. The lack of nurturing and even acknowledgement is exhausting.

My brother was in a similar relationship when he was younger so him and his fiance will invite me over from time to time and they will nurture me and baby me and it is really quite refreshing. It is silly stuff like listening to me and joking with me and not taking things personally. I get to let loose and be myself.

Meerkat, this sums it up perfectly for me too. But there is also a part of me that wants to be healthy now, find a healthy partner now, and be done with this nonsense.

Vortex, I can fully understand why you would seek nurturing from someone else. I'm 7 months into a separation, and I'm very ready to be nurtured! I asked my wife to do so yesterday, and I think the answer was "no", but I'm not sure. Such is BPD.

I fail to plan dates too, but it's for a different reason lol. I don't enjoy dates with my wife. The conversation is about her, the emotional support is for her, the mood is seldom fun loving and quirky like me, it's more solemn and serious like her. I took her to a belly dancing restaurant once for a laugh, and I got up and started dancing - that's just me. She has brought up so many times how I offended her, hurt her feelings and made a disastrous night for her. I'd prefer to date a squirrel. It's a sheer wonder how we got married 14 years ago. I'm still trying to work that one out!

I don't enjoy dates with my spouse either. It was my attempt to give him something simple and concrete that he could do. On one hand, he says he wants to work on our relationship and enjoys my company. He says all of the "right" things but when it comes to putting them into practice, he falls short. One of the things that I have read that has nothing to do with PD is to not expect your partner to read your mind. So, I have worked on trying to be more specific and give him concrete things to do.

I can't make him feel things and a lot of what I want is the intangible nurturing that most people seem to do without much thought. It is my boss giving me encouragement after a rough night of work. It is a coworker that offers to cover for me so I can take a break. It is that little bitty intangible stuff that is very nurturing but seems to completely stump those with BPD or BPD traits.

My wife always seemed to get mad at me when I was sick, also!

She claimed that she never got sick, but she pops Ibuprofen all of the time for headaches and so forth.

Dates? Hmm.

We go on dates sometimes. Rarely been much fun. There is always a deep tension in the air, at least on my side. I have to worry about what I am going to say, how I say it, what did I not say that I should have... .

My wife does the same thing, too. She wants me to be in it, thoughtful, and plan something nice. I don't really plan the dates. How could I possibly. I would have to have every single little detail perfectly planned out the exact way she expects it be. Which would not be that big a problem, except she has no idea what she expects, so how could I?

How does this compare with what you have read in the lessons?

Why would you want to do this?

I don't want to make anybody feel anything. I was simply reminding myself of that. If I am going to stay in the relationship, I need to be able to accept the fact that I will not be nurtured by my spouse. In the past, I have wanted him to act like he feels certain things or even understands them.

It's funny, tonight while my wife at her zumba class dancing with her friends (she hasn't danced with me in 12 years, even though I asked her many times) I fed the kids, the dogs, took out the garbage, and cleaned up the dog poop in the back yard.  Now, I have paperwork to do.

While I was taking out the garbage it occurred to me out of the blue that I haven't had any of my needs met nearly my whole life!

My wife has barely touched my body in the last 16 years.

She gets mad if I try to hug her, but she hugs everyone else she sees.

She never tells me that she loves me.  She said her dad never told her so she has trouble saying it. lol

She doesn't cook things I like.

She never wanted to go out on dates with me, friends had to always be around.

When I try to talk to her I have to watch everything I say.

I get no empathy at all.  When I told her I was tired from working 2 weeks straight she said, "everyone has to work."

When I complained that we didn't have sex she would say "things change, get over it."

If I make the slightest mistake she is mad forever about it.

I, too, feel like a sperm donor and a human checkbook.  As for an example of this, my wife and one of her idiot (sorry) BPD friends told my kids that they should marry for money!

I don't know how much longer I can do this.

I think the inability to nurture and thus be totally selfless because let's face it, nurturing is the total focus on the recipient, is at the heart of what it is to have BPD. So consumed with themselves, their needs, their wants. Anybody who wants anything emotional from them is simply too much and they feel "put out".

In my case, my BPDw is a nurse. Yeah, I know, go figure. She is great with her patients. Warm. Giving. Understanding. Honestly she is Florence Nightingale. With her daughter she is nurturing, perhaps more like babying and always trying to protect her feelings so she won't get upset or cry. They do have a weird, co-D relationship.

As for me, I work all day. She doesn't right now. Do I ever come home to a clean house or a cooked dinner? NO! Would she ever lift a effing finger? NO. No surprises for me. No little gifts. Just more requests. I am an ATM and a butler to her. Luckily I love to cook but, you know, it's nice to have something made for you when you come home after working all day.

Worse yet is when I don't feel good. Once I was having a colonoscopy. The night before she told me to get up extra early before I had to get ready to go to put the trashcans out. You can imagine how I felt. I hadn't eaten for 24 hours, had extreme abdominal discomfort, throwing up and she just couldn't do it herself. She wouldn't do it herself.

If I am ever tired, she accuses me of being lazy or "old". She is a night owl that likes to watch mindless TV and drink. I am an early to bed kinda person. I don't drink.  I have to get up early.

To me that is one of the worst things about my relationship... .the lack of nurturing. It is so EMPTY.

This is an important thing which often forget and have trouble practicing. Only requesting what they are capable of providing. Some people will make an over the top fuss, some non and others will be on a par with our expectations.

I guess it comes down to open sharing, and allowing them to give what they can without pressure. Being sound in ourselves is the best defense for not feeling like we need to lean on them

Often they just get caught up or distracted by the issues going around in their head that often throw perspectives and priorities out of wack.

My God I feel so,sorry for you brother! What you describe here is exactly what I experienced in my 18yr marriage before I caught my uBPDxw cheating and it all ended last year. Our whole relationship was all about her. I was never her lover, friend and soulmate. I was solely her provider and fatherly figure. Then in the end she devalued me and threw me into the trash which actually turned out to be a good thing for me. Sperm donor and checkbook, yeah that was me too. Didn't even get to donate much sperm the last several years either. She was getting it elsewhere.

Whatever you do from here on out I hope you find peace Workinprogress. I know what you're going through!

MWC... .*)

Sure, they can nurture a spouse... .Whether any specific husband or wife (BPD or not) will nurture her or his spouse, is another question depending on the people involved.

My uBPD M-I-L was most of the time very nurturing of my now deceased F-I-L; she was most of the time very nurturing of her son--my Husband--who has major BPD traits from her flawed parenting, which prevented her from being nurturing to him (and also my F-I-L) when dysregulated. And the dysregulation happened a lot, unfortunately.

My uBPD D-I-L is almost all the time very nurturing of my non-BPD Son, except when dysregulated, and then all bets are off. But, my F-I-L & Husband never knew about BPD and how to deal with it, and my non-BPD Son doesn't know about BPD and how to deal with it, and none of them stood a chance at trying to navigate those relationships well enough to deal with dysregulations.

My Husband (the one with the inherited BPD traits), is very nurturing of me. In the past--before I found this site--he would periodically dysregulate, and when that happened, the nurturing was absent for the time it took for him to get regulated again. These days he isn't dysregulating; I've learned enough about myself by reading on this site so that I don't push his buttons anymore. I've stopped JADE-ing when he feels something that doesn't make sense to me, and I've stopped taking every dysregulation or unexplainable (to me) feeling of his personally. And things calm down or don't even escalate, and he's nurturing again quickly and lovingly.

I have BPD loved ones all around me, and each of them knows how to be nurturing, and is nurturing, and they are still BPD. That doesn't mean that everyone with BPD will be nurturing to their spouses, but it also means that yes, it is possible that they can nurture a spouse 

I think not everyone here agrees what nurturing means.

Some view it as preparing food, taking care of the physical element of our needs. Well, I am sure many BPD people do that. My wife also - but only kind of. It's up to her mood, almost never really doing it for me but rather what SHE wants to do.

As for more of a support, love and TLC... .it's hard for me to imagine which BPD is even capable of doing it.

When I tell my wife about my day - good or bad - she almost always stops me mid-sentence because she had to say something, or she got a whatsapp message... .I feel I talk to the wall then.

Not very well I'm afraid, thanks for the reminder! you seem to post the most inconvenient of questions  lol

I suppose it's me reverting to the persecutor role and doesn't really do any good in terms of validating her. So its me acting out as a co-dependent, rather than an assertive, compassionate husband which I want to be. It certainly doesn't follow the SET guidelines. It's also focussing on her behaviours, and issues which I cannot change, instead of focussing on what I can change - me.

But I did stick up for myself, and communicate my desires in words. I have decided what I want, and am at least aware of victimisation, blaming and FOG tactics. Before I came to BPDfam I would have done whatever was necessary to appease her, so I guess it's also me experimenting, testing how to speak my mind, and not fear the anger, crying, FOG that might come in return.

Is there anything in particular which you think I might have done better?

BTW, I phoned her this morning and asked if she could spare some nurturing?

She did well for about 2 minutes and she really made me feel loved!, so she is making an effort which I reinforced. It then became a positive discussion around changes and she said that nurturing was a muscle that she needed to develop. It was followed by 15 minutes of what she wants and needs, but I got my 2 minutes of nurturing which is more than I've had before.

She then sent me another sms asking for money, but thanked me for the nice chat.

I asked her a very important question too. I asked why the changes? why the efforts to behave differently? and she said, that she had accepted life alone or away from me, and needed to make changes for herself. This is about her becoming healthy. I liked her answer!

Solid answers... .

What's the difference in supposing... .and choosing?

Which gives you more power?

How did you reinforce this?

So... since it is obvious (correct me if I am wrong... .) that she is taking some steps in the right direction... .the direction that you want... .how are you going to reciprocate... .to honor her choices?

joshbjoshb This hits the nail squarely on the head!

Nurturing is different for each of us, and may even vary within each person depending on the context. What is nurturing one day, might feel condescending the next day. Or nurturing in front of friends might be embarrassing for one, and the height of validation for another.

This intuitive, context specific skill set, allows most of us to read between the lines in terms of interpersonal relationships. It is a healthy dance.

We can come away from an interaction with anybody, and know very clearly whether we have been nurtured or not, but not really know what was said or done that made us feel that way. Much of it is subconscious, and includes body language, so it is indeed not surprising that we would have a different view of it.

In a pwBPD, I think they can change behaviour and be more nurturing, but it will be more mechanical. The subtleties and intuition of it must be very difficult to learn.

And I would hope that when we do see a change in behavior from a pwBPD that we all realize that it was most likely much harder for them to change... .than it is for us.  We all need to think about how to validate and honor the hard work that went into that change.

Let's bring physics into this... .the physics of the "dance"... .and unfortunately for most of us when we showed up here... .that dance was dysfunctional.  Some of that fault was "theirs"... .some was "ours". 

As changes are made in the r/s the momentum of the "dance" starts to shift from negative to positive.  Once that shift happens we want to make sure that both parties... .the non and the pwBPD... .are encouraged to increasing the momentum in the right direction... .

I think this is all part of the issue with difficulties in being consistent, and her own needs and impulses overriding everthing. I get a lot of this. Used to really frustrate me, until I realize her intend is right, its just her capabilities are often impaired. What she feels like doing is probably her prime motivator. Do you think she is doing her best?



I get lots of love, support and TLC, then she gets distracted by her own things. It can feel invalidating if anything. The frustration from that is my problem really. It is the nature of the way the disorder affects her. I know this and should just accept that no malice is intended

Not all pwBPD are affected this way but it is common. We have to learn what is really meant by OUR pwBPD as that is who we have to  harmonize with, no one else's.

My particular RS is not consistent or balanced but there are areas where support and care is way higher than the norm, but other areas when the ball is dropped completely.

I guess she is not going to change in the short run so my job is to shift my balance to be more in sync. Its not easy but it is rewarding.

HUGE statement that we all should take some time to consider.

So... yes... .we come here to read lessons... .talk about lessons... .talk about generalities of the disorder but then we have to be nimble enough on our feet to apply the theory to the nuance of our particular r/s. 

With all of the different ways that BPD traits can present themselves... .that is no small task.

But an extremely rewarding task... .

I thanked her for her efforts, and told her that it made me feel loved. I explained that it helps me feel valued, visible, and appreciated. I also explained that when there is reciprocation, it helps me feel more positive about her requests and needs, which are many :-)

To reciprocate I am helping her feel safe emotionally, and protected. She had some issues later on this morning about money (she feels controlled in this aspect of our lives), and I validated her feelings, by listening carefully and explaining that it was her reality and was entitled to that feeling. I did SE with her. PS, I have controlled the money very tightly since some very serious spending issues that she had/has. I'm not sure how to ease up safely in this aspect, but I think she felt listened to and heard.

Yes, she is making choices to head in a healthy direction. She is even talking about the importance of boundaries, and how safe she feels with them! I am impressed

I think a lot of it is because they often misinterpret the needs of others, or the reactions others have to their actions. Things can be done with the best of intentions to make us feel better, but it can miss the mark and they may be slow to realize this and hence not be in sync with our needs.

Its the feedback for their actions link that is often the weakness.

Maybe we can improve this if are more clear about what our needs are and are not

Point taken, "choosing" is assertive and taking accountability for our thoughts (thence our feelings) and actions.

"Supposing" is very passive, and blah


Is this true? I think change is hard for everyone.

True... .I think a better statement might be that change for them is different.

But I also might stick with harder.  If we accept that "nons" are "healthier"... .and that a "healthy" person has an easier time identifying "issues" and then changing to adapt... .then I think I will argue my first statement is accurate.

But... yes... .change can be hard for all of us.  Especially when we are "stuck".  Maybe it's easier for nons to get unstuck... .

Thoughts?

Sometimes it is hard for us to envisage just how hard things are for them, especially when we are having such a hard time coping ourselves.

Cant get any harder than that 

Change is actually something I find interesting and challenging, thrilling even. And it seems to me that my pwBPD finds change difficult, and prefers a set routine, structure and status quo.

So perhaps you're right, non's seem more adaptable and open to change, and pwBPD more rigid.

Thank you so much, MWC!  I have been so torn for the last 16 years.  She was a great wife until she started hanging around other BPD stay at home moms.  I remember packing my bags one night and calling a cab.  I had enough.  I looked at my oldest son who was just a little kid, around 5 years old or so, and I couldn't do it.

Now I think of my youngest son, he is 14.  We are so close.  It would rip my heart out to go. 

I try to get things to work and my wife just isn't receptive.  She is receptive when she wants to be, for whatever reason.

It's tough going through life like this.

What do you think the reason is?

When it works for her image.

When she was hanging around her BPD friends, they all treated their husbands badly, so my wife treated me badly.  When it became common knowledge that her friends were all cheating on their husbands, my wife suddenly turned into the most devoted wife in the world.  That was because it was out that her friends were doing what they were doing, and she didn't want her image tarnished.

I really suspect that she was cheating at the time, then stopped when everything was getting exposed.

Other times she became good to me was when I got a better job than the one I had.

She would suddenly be nice to me whenever her latest friend and her had a falling out.

Also, I noticed she becoming much nicer to me a couple of months before my annual bonus comes out.

Lastly, if we are going together as a couple to an event of some kind, she will be very nice.  Then, after the event she becomes cold again.

I think that I am getting her patterns figured out.

For years I clung to these positive changes with all my heart.  Only to have my heart busted again.  I'm much wiser now.

Hi WIP,

I can definitely empathise with that. It may appear that it's all about their image to us, because we feel the pressure to maintain that image. I call it the facade. One for church, one for being with the friends, one for work colleagues, and I'm sure you know the one for home LOL.

But as I research I begin to see a person, who because of abandonment issues from either a neglectful or an abusive parent, is desperately mirroring the people around her, because that's what she does to feel like a real person. Because deep down she feels that she is nothing, literally nothing. If she can keep up the mirrors, and reflect what people around her expect, maybe she can be accepted, just maybe, and if the people around her accept her, just maybe she isn't nothing, she has value.

And then I begin to feel some compassion, not alot mind you, but a bit, and there's alot of anger towards those neglectful parents, or abusive ones as the case may be. But then again, perhaps they were abused/neglected and developed mirrors themselves.

Not my problem right? I'm afraid it is now

The mirroring and facades are not deceitful as such, it is much as Averyron is pointing out it can be their attempts to build themselves a persona due to the lack of a real solid one of there own.

Kind of that looks good so I want to be like that to. I once heard someone use the phrase that someone who does this is an "air guitarist", going through the motions of who they would like to be, but not actually producing the goods. A sort of naivety with a touch of delusion.

Dont wait for a an air guitarist to produce a hit record, but no need to destroy their dreams either, if that is all they have, they are doing their best

Classic quote!

pwBPD = "An air guitarist, with a sort of naivety and a touch of delusion"

:)

I got an sms to thank me for providing for the family. That's also a first. Yes, she's heading in the right direction!

Great! |iiii  

What will you do to reciprocate... .? 

Those darn questions again :-) Nothing yet.

I had a minor vent/dysregulation of my own though. I saw a woman nurturing her child and husband in a restaurant and I thought that's what I want, someone who gets it, without me having to structure it, ask for it, and coach it. Not who gives me 2 minutes of nurturing before a 15 minute tirade of her own needs, and a solitary, contrived complimentary sms. OK, now that's out the way, I can try to reciprocate. I sent back a smily face and an sms hug. Does that count? I didn't think so.

I'll send her a reciprocal sms validating her efforts and her feelings, and highlighting her talents. She is a very talented and accomplished woman BTW. It was a big part of my initial attraction.

Thanks for the coaching!

 

Looking forward to hearing back on the reaction to the sms... .

Anyone else out there with a suggestion on next steps.

Seems to me that there is a decision point here... .there can either be a reciprocation... .sms for sms... .or a chance to step it up a notch.

Looking forward to hearing input and suggestions from everyone... .

Ha ha decided to phone instead. Began very well. I started telling her how good it was to have a woman in my life, that I enjoyed the variation and uniqueness of womanhood, and her particularly. It went well and then she started shouting at the children to get out of her room, so I said it sounds like you're having a tough time, but I don't appreciate you speaking to the children like that. She said "I thought you were phoning to validate me, not lecture me." Then she started shouting at me, and I said "I'll not be spoken to that way, I'll call back later when things have calmed down. I phoned back 90 minutes later and no answer. So it's silent treatment now.

I'm feeling that pitt in my stomach, like I need to make it better somehow, but writing this is helping me blow it off as her feelings not mine.

OK formflier, it's an opportunity to try and validate my way through this one

I just sent an sms doing a bit of SE. " It must be very difficult to handle the girls on your own, Thinking of you. Warm Hugs"

Thoughts, advice?

 :) Hah! It worked

Her reply " Thank you. Mmm that feels good. Thank you for protecting me with your strong arms. I've always loved your strength"

 |iiii

A strong consistent stance is a wonderful tool we often underestimate.

But let me understand: why do you have to be the one calling, then calling again, then sending a text. To me it's not validating but it's a lack of boundary. She can do whatever she wants, you will continue to chase her and make her feel good.

Let her call you.

No?

I think the boundary Moselle is working on here is not set at calling her, as that doesn't seem to bother him. It is about not continuing disrespectful interactions, which does bother him. In this case he will call her as long as she is respectful. If she is not he ends the call. Am I reading that right Moselle?

My boundary would be not having to call, but that is me as that would bug me, but everyone's boundary needs to be set at what bugs them, and that varies. As long as you know your boundary and are consistent with it you will feel empowered.

I definitely think her parents have a lot of blame in this, not that I'm looking to point the finger.  I still see them hovering around in her life trying to control her. 

I was offered a promotion a few years ago that would have totally changed the rest of our lives for the better.  The sky was the limit with the possibilities.  We just had to move to a city that was 2 1/2 hours away.  She refused to move and I think her parents had a lot to do with it.

What you write is very interesting. My question is will not setting a boundary now will come to bite you later, but than you are right - what is considered biting is what we decide it is.

Thank you for your helpful comment, as always.

Spot on! 5 months ago I had no explicit boundaries with her whatsoever. And when I read in the lessons how to set boundaries, there was a lot of advice about how everyone has different boundaries and that they should reflect our values. To be honest I'm still working all of that out. I needed some boundaries urgently so I went to the "UN declaration of human rights", and borrowed theirs, adjusting them a bit for my personal situation.

The one I'm defending here is the third one "Right to be treated kindly and with respect"

Right to dignity

Right to truth

Right to be treated kindly and with respect

Security from violence and or threats

Right to privacy

Right to leave if persecuted

The right to freedom of expression and opinion

Freedom from cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment

Justice and fairness

The right to uninterrupted rest and leisure

Security of personal effects

Self determination and autonomy

Right to peace

Right to effective remedy for violation of these rights

I'm sure this varies significantly from the traditional Boundaries 101, because I went from a relationship with no boundaries whatsoever, to one with 14. I'd hardly recommend this as a way to soothe a pwBPD, she hated it. But I figured why add these one at a time, lets make a step change, so I tried it and while she has called it "fairly talk" and "UN (expletive)" at first, I stuck to it, and she respects them now for the most part.

I am adding higher concepts like nurturing and reciprocation now, but I am  so glad I took that step 5 months ago.

Might be more appropriate for a new thread... .but I'd challenge you to do some deep thinking about where you were and where you are now... .hit the big highlights and turning points.

I think that could be inspirational for many on this board.

Keep up the good work... .

I'll do that. Thank you.

*mod*

This thread has reached its post limit.

It is a worthwhile discussion. Please feel free to start a new topic.