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Here are my last two posts from the Day Cont'd 6 thread... .

No, I haven't been, but she was asking me to help pay it off because if we do by Jan 3rd, we will have no interest.  You're right, it's caving, but I also know I will never see a dime as she accused me of.  Should I mention anything about the nasty voicemails she left me and try and validate the anger and bitterness? 

My wife sent my ex-wife an email just now saying if they didnt return the phone that she would report the phone as stolen and tell them where they could find it.    She is really having difficulties over this.  HOW DARE I GIVE A PHONE I TOOK OWNERSHIP OF TO MY DD12 WHILE WE WERE SEPARATED!     She is starting to crack I'm afraid and it's sad to see.  I'm starting to worry that my ex wife will file something on my wife (harrassment or TRO) at this point.  I don't want that to happen for my wife's or our marriage's sake as I know she loves them.

Don't even talk about the w/d. Sorry to be a harda$$, but you were adding when you should have been subtracting.

She owes you money (which you aren't very likely to see).

She has an obligation to pay the w/d. (Since you don't have use of it, it doesn't matter to you if it gets repossessed!)

She's asking  you for money for the w/d.

Writing off the first debt doesn't actually give your wife any money to pay down the w/d, so it won't help her. (Remember, she's not likely to pay you back!)

Oh... .not much point validating old feelings, and not much point validating when she's raging.

You know... .if your exwife files a TRO / HO against your wife... .it really won't hurt you much. In fact, it may help your legal position later, having something already filed with the courts that says something about your wife's bad behavior... .

It might keep her from those kids, but she's already avoiding them.

I hate watching my wife self destruct and go downhill.  It's getting worse almost weekly.  I love her and want her to get help.

 I have some idea how you feel. My wife seems to be going down a path kinda like that. Well, if not self-destructing, flailing around and reacting, at least.

There really is no joy in their suffering, no matter how self-imposed.

i know what that feels, i can relate somehow.

I'm sorry Maroon. Self destructiveness is hard to watch. Hang in there brother.

MaroonLiquid, this is your life.  All of the hard days, ups, downs and round and rounds are your life right now.  Is living this lifestyle helping anybody?  Are you and the kids benefitting from any of this?  The mental energy and focus on what your wife has done, is doing or might do next, is time spent away from a peaceful existence or coming up with a solid plan for the future.

What do you want out of life?  Other than for your wife to get help?  Riding on the coattails of her disordered behavior isn't going to get you to that happy ending, I'm afraid.  We have to seize control of our own lives; it's something that's totally within our power.  Our future might not look like how we imagined it, but we can't expect a disordered individual to lead the way.

We are the emotional leaders.  It can feel daunting and it's a tall order to fill, it takes a lot of guts to face ourselves.

  And this one's going out to your children  

So my wife called me this morning and when I answered, she asked what I wanted to do about the cars.  I said I wanted mine back and she said, "Of course you do, you feel entitled to that.  I'm offering you the van because you have smaller kids and it gives you more room"  I said, "Wife, you and I both know why you want the Lexus and not the van.  It's upside down and you don't want to keep putting money into it.  I understand that, but you took my vehicle in an underhanded manner and forced me to take the one you didn't want."  She said, "Look, I think we both know where this is headed (talking about the marriage), and I'm trying to be civil."  I said, "You have told me where you want it headed, but I don't want that.  As I said before I will not discuss that with you."  She said, "Yeah, you want a woman to be at your beck and call whenever you want and still have a wandering eye."  I said, "I'm sorry you feel that way"  She said, "The last 24 hours you have been a d1ck" and I responded, "Wife, I will not be verbally abused, if that continues I will hang up."  She said, "Oh, you poor thing trying to proactively protect yourself.  You're a d1ck".  I hung up and she tried to call me right back and I didn't answer.  She left a voicemail about how she is trying to be civil and when I'm ready to do that to call her."  Then she sent me a text asking for the receipt for the repair of the van and wants me to sign a "power of attorney" to take care of the car situation.  Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha... .What does she take me for?    :) *) lol lol lol lol lol  I am going to respond with, "I'm not signing anything like that.  I can meet you there, but I will not sign a POA for anything"

Better yet, don't respond at all.

Why?

What response do you owe her?

Perhaps you should send her a copy of the receipt, since she asked for it.

I wouldn't even bother answering about the POA.

Have you talked to a lawyer, or posted on the divorce/custody board here yet?

No I havent... .Honestly I don't want to go there

Sorry... .that doesn't cut it for me.

Figure out what it could be like. Your wife has very seriously threatened to drag you into it. Letting her start with no idea of your legal rights or what a good strategy is will only cost you $$$$$$$$$$ and headaches.

Research doesn't mean you need to file.

I have been through a divorce before.  We have no children together, just some community property and debt.  There is really nothing to fight over.

Really missed my wife today.  I'm doing my best to do things and concentrate on me.  I really miss watching football with my wife.  Really miss her again today.

Hello ML,

I'm so sorry you are missing your wife, it must be very difficult being separated from someone you love   

My wife texted last Friday and asked for me to sign a POA to get the car situation taken care of.  I responded last night that I would meet her there on Wednesday and she didn't respond.  My wife responded this morning asking for a confirmation of her and the kids bein on my insurance for next year and mentioned nothing about the cars.  She told me two weeks ago that she got her own when she mentioned divorce.  I did leave her on mine as I figured she was not telling the truth.  What is her angle?  Is this her fear of abandonment kicking in making sure I'm not leaving her?  Is she looking for an assurance?

So I responded with the enrollment confirmation page and she responded that she would meet me there on Wednesday.  She also is asking if I'm "requesting" (she didn't use quotes, but thought her language in asking is strange) to keep my car and remove her from the title and vice versa on her car.  I responded that that is what I'm requesting and asked for my laptop back as well... .No response yet... .

Can you protect yourself from her getting more debts and sticking you with half (or more!) of them?

She sounds very capable of doing something like that!

Loong Update:  So after sending my wife the confirmation page for my insurance two days ago, she emailed me what she thought I owed her which was ridiculous and was all slanted towards her (even though that is what she accused me of) and gave her reason for moving out (I shoved her into the cabinets and bruised her) and said it wasn't "her choice".       I called her and we talked for a while.  It started out not going anywhere (now I know why, her mom is in town).  Anyway, I told her that I can see where she is coming from and that I respect her side.  I then told that even though I didn't agree with most of what she said, I am willing to compromise on certain things.  I told her that I will respond to her email.  I told her I was dissappointed that she chose to throw around accusations and left out some very important details.  She then said, "Like what?"  I told her, "Wife, I held you off of me against the cabinet due to the fact that you hit me in the face and if I didn't, you would have done it again.  I'm not going to sit there and let you hit me.  I won't hit you back and you know that, but I won't let you wail on me either.  She said, "MaroonLiquid, you know that is not true.  I've never hit you."   I responded with, "If you are sticking with that, then you need help and things won't be resolved between us if you aren't willing to face that.  I know that isn't easy to hear, but it isn't easy to say either.  You did and you know it's not the first time.  In fact, I have witnesses to one of the black eyes you gave me one time."  I told her who it was and reminded her of the time they commented on it.  They made the comment at the time, ":)id you tell Wife no again?"  He was joking, but how right he was.  When I said that, it was like something changed in her.  From then on in the conversation, she was completely different.  She said, "Maroon, look, honestly, I can't work on the issues between us until the "black and white" (yes she used this term) issues are dealt with.  It is hindering my ability to trust you."  I said, "I understand what she is saying and I respect her side.  I am willing to work through the "black and white" things to help us get to a place of dealing with our stuff."  She had to go shortly after that and said we would talk later.  We texted quite a bit that night.  She said that night, "I know what is wrong with us, I'm stubborn and you're selfish."  So I responded with, "Yeah, I have realized that I can be selfish and stubborn."  I then told her why and where it came from (childhood), and she was floored.  I then said, "The last five months I have come to realize that my issues have hindered my ability to see her side as her side is just as important as mine and even though we may not agree, she has a right to her side and I do mine as well.  I have committed myself to really hearing how she feels and listen to her as you have very good insight on a lot of things."  She said, "It's obvious you have been dealing with those things and she does see a change in me.  It is cool that you have had that much clarity regarding what your past did to you and how it's affected who you are.  I'm proud of you for facing it and admitting that to yourself and me."  I could tell she was genuine.  It was almost like it took any sting of what she said about me or herself out of it.  It was actually pretty awesome.  She went to bed shortly after that and we said goodnight.  Since then we have been communicating regularly.  I will get to more of that in a moment.  Here was my responce to her email that I sent yesterday morning:


Wife,

    After receiving your email, here is where I stand regarding these things:


    You said, "I feel that you're asking for most things in our separation to be slanted in your favor."  I see why you would feel that way and it is hard for anyone to feel that they are being taken advantage of.  I am committed to working with you to doing what is best for both of us regarding bills, moving past these things, and moving forward towards rebuilding our relationship in a healthy manner.  

    You made the statement, "I DID NOT SEPARATE FROM YOU AS MY CHOICE."  If it wasn't your choice, whose choice was it?  You chose to rent another house without my knowledge and move out.  That was your choice and nobody else's.  As far as the reasons you chose to separate, it does no good to get involved in "he said, she said" until we have a qualified counselor present.  There is our version of the truth and there is God's.  His is what matters and He knows the truth.  He will deal with each of us individually on our own issues if we allow Him to.  As I said, until there is honesty from both sides as to what happened, healing can't take place.

    When you moved out, you took everything of value acquired during our marriage, some of which you acquired during separation by, quite frankly, underhanded means.  You currently have the Lexus (roughly $2000 in equity), 27" iMac (worth about $600), your iPad Air (worth $350), my MacBook I bought with my student loan (worth about $1000 with backpack and 1TB external hard drive), a Canon 7D DSLR camera(worth about $1400), a SnoWizard snowball machine (worth about $1400), an LG washer/dryer combo (with a negative equity of $1350), a 42" Vizio TV and sound bar (worth about $400), king size bed frame (worth about $1000), an LG refrigerator (worth about $300), all the movies/Blu-Rays we acquired (worth roughly $400?), and PS4 games (worth roughly $100).  I only have a few things acquired during our marriage in my possession including, 2007 Honda Odyssey ($2000 in negative equity), a PS4 console (worth about $400), an 8' bean bag (worth about $50), a popcorn machine (worth about $30).  The TV I have in my possession you bought from my mom before we were married (worth about $100), your old toy chest (family heirloom), and my old entertainment center (worth about $30).  So, according to this, you have roughly $7700 dollars of value/equity in your possession.  With the Honda Odyssey that I currently have in my possession, I have property with a combined total negative equity of -$1350 dollars.  So by these numbers, you have almost $9,000 dollars more in equity from possessions that we have acquired during our marriage.  I feel that is pretty slanted in your favor, isn't fair, and can't be denied.

    Let's start with the LG washer/dryer combo.  You said that I haven't made a payment since we have been separated.  That is true.  When you separated from me, you took them, and at that point, assumed responsibility financially for them.  That is one of the negative consequences for choosing to separate.  If you can't afford paying for them, then we can discuss that situation and I'm open to discussing it.

    Second, you say that you paid $300 dollars for "dog" for a pet deposit.  You also said that I haven't taken him to the vet since we separated which isn't true.  I took him when he was sick and paid $150 dollars after you got back from Iowa in early August.  That would make $150 dollars that I owe you.

    Third, regarding the iPhone in question.  Let me remind you that the reason I had to use DD12 upgrade was because you broke your phone in 2013.  I told you to use the upgrade on my line to replace it because I was upgrading later in the year (2013).  When you suspended my phone line in August of this year, you emailed me and told me to "take ownership" of my line so I did.  When I did that, I took ownership of the phone as well.  Installment charges are charged to a particular line of service and not a phone.  Considering there have been times we haven't talked for weeks at a time (your decision), I did forget about the installment charges that were being charged to DD12's line, so here is what I have figured out regarding those charges.  The "installment charges" were paid for 11 months together before I "took responsibility" for my line and phone in August.  The installment contract was for 20 months at roughly $35 dollars a month.  That means there is 9 left.  Since that time, you have paid 2 (possibly 3 at this point) with 6 or 7 remaining.  That would be $384 dollars that you will have paid.  The phone itself became mine when I took ownership of my line, but understand I have a responsibility for the installment fees of $384 dollars.

     Regarding the Lexus and Honda, when you decided to separate from me, we decided that you would take the Honda, and I would take the Lexus.  :)uring that time, I paid 3-1/2 car notes on both vehicles (You never made one or offered, so I made them to protect our credit) which the van's part is $1061 dollars (which should have been yours under the agreement we made).  That was the way it stayed until the van broke down back on November 4th when you texted me saying the radiator had a leak.  I offered to let you use the Lexus during the day and in the evening (dropping me off at work and home at night) until you were able to get it fixed on the 6th, when under that agreement, I offered to help you get it to the shop to have the radiator fixed.  On the 5th, you decided to keep the vehicle and give me the van when you got upset with me.  You told me that if I needed a vehicle to "come get the van".  When you finally brought me the van, both the registration and  the inspection stickers were out since July and had to be renewed.  I got the radiator fixed at the shop for $120 dollars.  While it was being fixed, I had to rent a car for $355 dollars to have reliable transportation and not do more damage to the van.  Last Friday, I got the registration done for $75 dollars.  That brings the grand total to what I've spent on the van to $1611 dollars out of my pocket since we split.  

    If we owe your mom $500 dollars together, that would make my part $250 dollars which I have no problem being responsible for my part.

    As far as the insurance, I don't require any payment as you are my wife and I feel they are my kids and wouldn't feel right taking that.

    As far as the MacBook ($1200 bought new for school and now worth about $1000 dollars), I bought that with my student loan money and take a lot of online classes.  You kept that after getting upset with me at me at lunch on a Friday afternoon when I accidentally left it at your house.  I came back immediately to get it and you refused to give it to me.  I have tried multiple times since then to get it to no avail.  You encouraged me to buy the laptop with my student loan so that we would not have to come out of our pocket.  I feel getting it back is not only fair, but the right thing to do as I am responsible to pay that loan back regardless.  

    You have an outstanding electric bill from the other house due that is $254 dollars which would make my half, $127 dollars.  I have no problem being responsible for that.

     I have a last water bill of $206.74 to Water Districr.  Your half is $103.

   

According to my list:

Wife owes Maroon  - $1611  Paid total on Honda

                             $  103  Water District

                            ______

                             $1714

Maroon owes Wife       - $150  :)og

                                  $384  Installments

                                  $250  Loan from Wife's mom

                                  $127  Electric Final Bill

                                 _____

                                  $911

                       

    By my numbers, up and above what you have in equitable possessions, I see that you owe me $803 dollars just from stuff we have paid to this point since we separated in July.  

    As I have said, I desire to be reasonable over these things and am open to discussing them.  Now, the most pressing thing, in my opinion is the vehicles.  We need to get that resolved obviously. There is no easy solution to this as there is a hit to be taken.

MaroonLiquid

    She responded by text that she doesn't agree with everything (  of course not because my email was based on FACT!), but respected my stance as well.  I told her that I wanted what was best for her and our kids (continue to stress OUR KIDS) because I love them.  She said she knows I do.  We continued to communicate by text.  We have agreed now to trade both cars in and get two new ones separately, one in each of our names.  We are talking about what to do with the washer and dryer.  As far as any response to my email by email, she hasn't yet.  It is hard to argue with what I put.  I have a finger that is infected and she asked to see a picture.  SHe told me she has some antibiotics that I can have and some ointment for it.  She met me last night to give the stuff to me and we talked for about 15 minutes.  I asked how everyone was doing and she said, "Good".  She said that she is going to have her mom stay with her sister as she is starting to overstep her bounds with the kids and parent over the top of her.  I told her that I can understand as that is frustrating.  I do think it is more than that though.  It is hard for her to see me or talk to me regularly with her mom there after all the stuff she has told them.  Anyway, we are communicating and I'm taking it slow and easy.  I can tell she had "walls" up last night, but not letting it bother me.  Letting her deal with her own stuff.  This is a start.  Sorry this was so long.

Almost TL:)R  lol

You sound great--confident and secure in your own truths.

Your wife sounds like she's doing a bit better too.

Hang in there!

So my wife and I, along with my kids, FaceTime'd Thanksgiving night and talked for a while.  She said she really enjoyed that, and so did the kids.  We had mentioned doing that again the next day (Friday) so all the kids could talk as they haven't spoken in almost three months.  We didn't make contact that day and figured she was busy so didn't make contact either.  Made contact earlier this evening (Saturday) and asked her if she made it home safely.  She said she did and mentioned a lot of traffic which I validated her frustration on that.  I realized just how many things you can validate if you are paying attention!  I validated at least 7 things over text.  I asked if she wanted to FaceTime before she went to bed and she said yes.  We talked for a while that way and it was nice to do that just her and I without distractions.  There were moments where we just stared at each other and didn't speak.  It wasn't an awkward thing, but instead, it was almost the way it used to be as we would do that in our most intimate moments.  We talked for a while and I asked her about her surgery coming up.  She told me she talked to her sister and wanted me to take her to her surgery instead so her sister didn't need to drive down.  I was happy as I really wanted to be there for her. Things are going well currently and I can say that validation does work.  You have to listen and that is one thing I'm really working on!  I'm still working on myself and know that things can change by the moment, so just am taking it one moment at a time right now.  At the end of the conversation, I told her I missed her, and even though she didn't say it back, I didn't let it bother me.  Why she doesn't say it I won't concern myself with.  Things are better and that is a plus and something to build on!

 |iiii

I'm re-building things too, although in different circumstances than yours.

My only thought is to make sure you stay strong on the boundaries to protect yourself from being financially taken advantage of. You added it up to her currently owing you $803 and your laptop. Perhaps the exact amount is debatable, and she is unlikely to ever pay up. You sound relatively at peace with that. (except the laptop)

Accepting that reality is good.

The other reality is that (given her past behavior), she is likely to continue trying to run that balance up.

Are you currently paying health insurance for her and her kids? How much does that run the balance up every month.

Make sure you know what you are willing to give her financially, and that you will probably have to fight to keep her from taking more.

I am at peace with her not paying up.  She won't and will hold my boundaries as far as making sure she doesn't get more.  My insurance doesn't cost any more with her and the kids on it than it does without.  I don't know how to quantify that anyway except maybe cut it in half.  What do you mean by "fight to keep her from taking more"?  I am trying not to go "down the rabbit hole" thought of she is using me.  I'm aware that may be a possibility, but not dwelling on it.  I'm trying to keep positive.  We are communicating on a regular basis now and over FaceTime which is a huge step forward.  Asking her if she needs help with certain things (non-monetary things, putting up lights on the house) and she asked if helping her would be ok.  I said sure.

OK... .since keeping her on your insurance doesn't cost you anything out of pocket, I'd say that it is a good and generous move for you to take.

It sounds like you have your head screwed on straight regarding finances.  |iiii

I definitely have it screwed on right now after what I've gone through!    :). Anyway, so I went over and put up Christmas lights for my wife on her house this evening and we actually laughed and had fun together.  Since she is having some health issues, I didn't have her so much except hand me lights while I was on the ladder.  At one point, I asked her how she wanted the lights to look and she told me.  She asked if I was okay with that and I said as long as she was happy, that makes me happy.  She  said that is not normal for me as I usually give her a different way to do it (she meant anything).  She was right as I did that in the past.  I told her that I see how that was frustrating to her because it placed no importance on how she saw things or what she wanted.  That was part of my unhealthiness and that I have learned that seeing her way is just as important as mine.  She just shook her head and said, "Wow, that's a switch!"  I said, "Yep, God has shown me a lot of myself that I didn't like."  After I was done, we went and had dinner together just her and I!  We haven't had a meal together in three months.  We had great conversation and I concentrating on validating her as much as I could. 

     At first we started talking about the vehicle situation and she asked what I wanted "future wise".  I told her that I wanted the same thing I've always wanted.  To be married to her, both of us be healthy, and have a healthy marriage.  She said, "I won't go back to the relationship the way it was before."  I told her that I understand where she is coming from on that and it would be extremely unfair to expect her to.  I also told her that I will not go back to that either.  She said, "Then why do you do things that make that more difficult."  I didn't JADE, but said, "I have done my share of making things difficult in the past and can't change that.  Please forgive me for my part of making our relationship unhealthy.  I'm concentrating on getting healthy, us moving forward, and not dwelling on the past."  She said, "Yeah, we both have a lot of hurt and I know I've hurt you and I'm learning to try and let some of that go to move forward with you.".  I asked her what she wanted.  She said, "I don't know."  I told her that I'm sorry she feels that way and that is an extremely tough place to be.  She then said, "I want our kids to know that even when you have had difficulty in a marriage, that you can still work things out."  She doesn't know what she wants but wants the kids to know we will work it out.   :). Never reacted, and always stayed calm!  I told her I felt the same way.  It will take some time, but I agree with you that if we take one step at a time, we will get through this.  She said she agreed.  She then even said that we would need to start working out "the church thing" (going to different churches) and going to the same one.  On the way home she cried and said that she was sorry that when we're together she cries because she can bottle it up when we aren't together.  I told her that I understood  because there is a lot of emotion  between us and it is safe with me.  We held hands, hugged several times tonight, she called me honey in front of the kids, and it was all so nice as I've missed affection from her!

     We then went to her house and the kids needed some stuff from the store so my wife and I took them together and the youngest danced with me (she is always very loving and always been affectionate with me) and held my hand in the store.  It was nice as I've missed them.  I left to come home from the store and we both said how nice the night was and we are about to FaceTime... .Great evening together!

  This sounds fantastic!

The way things are going, you should start a new thread with a different title soon. :) You are moving into new territory with your wife. It sounds fragile, difficult, uncertain, and beautiful. (I'm in a similar place myself)

That bit about both of you being certain you will never go back to how it was before is something I've said with my wife too!

MaroonLiquid that was a really lovely post to read. I am really pleased for you that you are finding a way to talk together and with very slow tentative steps start to reconnect with your family.

I'm thinking about a new thread with a new title!  One thing I've felt is that there is no animosity at the moment.  We are truly trying to understand each other which is great.  I'm slowly learning what to validate and when.  Especially when she says something negative about my past behavior, I cut it off with validation and learning that she wants to know that I see it.  When I do that, it takes any bite and control away from her and keeps it from going to a negative place.  I've also learned where a lot of her dysregulations stem from.  I feel like I'm getting to know my wife all over again.  It's kind of fun. 


Thanks for that.  It has been a very difficult five months with a lot of ups and downs so this is a great change.  Validation has done wonders the last week or so.  I always struggled to figure out what to validate, but now that I LISTEN, it is easy to pick that stuff out.  I have been wrong on what her feeling was once or twice, but she told me what she was feeling instead of what I gathered (dissappointed instead of frustrated, mainly).  That was helpful.  I also think this started to change when I get her sister involved.  As long as I wouldn't get her family involved, she had no reason to change.  Now that she knows I'm not afraid to, I think that also made a difference for her and also made her respect me more.

Update:  Last night, my wife and I went and looked at a vehicle for her.  She ended up not liking the way it drove and so she decided against pursuing that vehicle.  She didn't dysregulate, but now I am being given the silent treatment.  I have two ideas on what started it.  One, we were going to take a road trip (along with her aunt) to pick up her mom's car about 16 hours away and "round trip" it this weekend.  I asked her what she thought on how to break the drive up and she made the comment that she thought that doing the 16 hours home on Sunday was the best way.  I said, "that's a long day".  I also asked if she thought about us flying in a month or so after her surgery/recovery and driving it back.  I told her I was concerned about her being in car for that long in such a concentrated amount of time with as much pain she has been in.  She said, "Look if you don't want to go, you don't have to."  I told her I wanted to because I thought it would give us time together that we haven't had in a long time and was looking forward to it.  A few minutes later she asked about the vehicle I was looking at and told her what it was.  She asked me if I knew what the payment would be and I told her.  She said that she needed to go and told her to call me when she got home.  I could tell it upset her but let it go. Tried to call her and text her later with no response.  I used SET this morning to try and see if the trip comment was bothering her and she said, "I've made other arrangements for my trip.  I won't be taking any more time to work on changing vehicles.  I have too much to do with work and my surgery this month."  I then asked her if me looking at that car was what was bothering her and that she could trust me.  I told her I cared about how she felt and wanted to work through it with her.  She started to respond and then didn't.  I just told her that when she was ready to talk about it, I was here and loved her.  Also told her my offer to go on the trip still stands.  The good news is, she didn't rage this time... .But not totally sure what she is feeling and can't help that until she tells me.

Maroon, you are doing things soo much better now, and I think you know it.  |iiii

You are also missing a couple things, and I'm going to be direct about it.

First off: Spending 16 hours in a car with her sounds like a terrible idea. It is pretty much guaranteed to have at least one of you dysregulated! Your concerns were valid, but probably not nearly as strong as they should have been! (Some of the worst and most destructive fights I have had with my wife were on long drives together.)

If she drops that plan you just dodged a possible marriage-ending bullet. The bullet is still in the air. Don't try to jump back in front of it!

Second, in this 'argument', she is trying to do the best thing she can, and YOU are still working against it!

She's getting triggered and upset about something relating to the car issues, or the 16 hour trip.

She doesn't have the skill to resolve this stuff well by talking to you about it.

I bet she knows that old go-to tool for this is to rage at you and make it all your fault.

She's trying NOT to do that. Help her out!

Yes, she will give you some kinda bogus/messed up reasons for why she's doing what she's doing. She's not very self-aware about this kind of stuff. Just let her 'reasons' go, and help her stick with more constructive actions! It is too easy for any follow-up inquiry on your part to be invalidating.

In this case, stop applying ANY pressure for her to talk about something difficult until she decides she's ready for it! Even when she does spool down, it will be enough of a challenge for the two of you to discuss/resolve things well.

Thanks, Grey.  You're right as far as her reverting to old behavior because when I first texted her this morning I told her to have a good day and she said, "You too."  So that is positive.  I didn't think about that regarding the trip.  I was just trying to be thoughtful.  I know she is dreading it as she told me that and I validated it.  That's a big thing to her right now.  Truthfully, I think she regrets offering to do it.     The car situation is difficult too. 

You were, acting with good intentions... .and old habits of trying to rescue. It is HARD to break them.

And yes, it really is a difficult situation for her, and there is lots to validate in there.  |iiii

However the whole point you are trying to get to is to have her take responsibility for her own car, without you being on the hook financially for it... .and for you to have a car that she doesn't have rights to.

I recommend you make it your job NOT to 'offer' to rescue her. If she asks for your help, be as generous as you feel you can/should. But keep your unsolicited offers to validation for a while!

So, I'm still getting the "short answer" silent treatment as of this morning.  I texted her to say good morning and asked how she was feeling.  I also told her that I needed to stop by and get the ladder I borrowed from a friend and she responded, "It's right where you left it."  It's funny, we made a lot of progress the last few days and she told me that she sees that I'm in a different place as far as listening to her and how she is feeling and validating that.  It is sad that when she is struggling with something that on the surface she feels can't share that with me or she may feel I wouldn't understand.  Maybe she thinks I would think bad of her or something.  I know it isn't necessarily about me because she had no problem telling me this last week what I did that affected her and we worked through it through my listening and validation.  I am happy that she didn't full on dysregulate.  That is a step forward.  I am handling things much better.  The other night when I was over at my wife's house, our DD16 who has always been close to me came up and hugged me right before she went to bed.  It was completely unsolicited and melted me.  I've made sure not to make the kids feel uncomfortable or try and push them to show affection.  One thing I didn't think about that may be bothering my wife is that when I've been over there with her mom and the kids, I have been calm, helpful and loving.  She may be feeling ashamed again after all she has said to her mom and I am looking like the complete opposite.  Again, I'm not trying to make sense of all this or care about what her family thinks, but it helps me to talk about it as I am a very analytical person.  It also helps me to realize it isn't about me.

 Awwwwww.

BTW, If you have any doubt, yes you did earn that one. Your kids notice that you are keeping things on your side of the emotional fence clean.

Actually, your wife does too, she just cannot express it as well. As you said, she is responding to your changes.

Thanks.  I needed that actually.  Not just for validation, but because I needed to know that things aren't beyond repair with them.  I'm almost crying as I type this.  That has been on my mind for months and in that one moment, it all became worth it.  She hugged her mom and told her she loved her, and I just figured she would go to her room, but instead, came over, leaned down and grabbed me tight.  I said, "good night, I love you" and she said I love you too.  After the last five months, again, it made it all worth it as I have missed them.  I think that touched my wife too even though we didn't talk about it.

I'm almost crying as I read it!

OK. Scratch the 'almost'.

One of the best friends and supporters I have coined a phrase for these moments. She calls them Tears of Divine Intervention.

Not the same as tears of sadness at all.

So true.  They are definitely good tears!

I'm feeling nervous again.  I know that she is responding to my changes and I'm grateful for that.  At the same time, why does her silent treatment feel like a step back again?  I know that she didn't full on dysregulate, and that's awesome, and not quite a big a step back as in the past!  I'm still irritated that we can have so many productive conversations that she commented about how she appreciated how I was listening and validating her.  She even thanked me for taking feedback so well to something that upset her.  But now this.  So what is different now?  I know it probably isn't about me.  When I texted her earlier, I said that I knew she had a lot going on with work and didn't want to keep her from getting some things done, but asked if her and her mom wanted to go to lunch and she responded with, "No".  I said that I understood and would be by to get a ladder we borrowed from a friend so that I could return it.  She said she would leave the garage door open and I could just go in and get it and to thank our friend for her.  When I got there (there about five minutes total), even knowing I was there (she works from home, the dogs barked to see me, she was talking to her mom and her office is right next to the driveway), never came out to say hello.  Instead she stayed in her "fortress" and hid.  That is strange to me.  Maybe it is the only way she can deal with her shame and stuff.  I don't get that part of BPD, but whatever.  I left as soon as I got it in the car.  It just brought up negativity in me.  Sorry.  Venting.

I would switch your thinking... .

Make her, yourself... .and everyone else convince you it is about you... .before you even considering that it is about you.

As opposed to "probably" not about me.

It's not... .trust me... .

Yup. Progress is slow, and two steps forward, one step back.

And regarding silent treatment... .

Staying away from you when she's so upset that she would say something hurtful and regret it isn't the silent treatment. It is being as kind as she can be. Like taking a time out.

Refusing to acknowledge you, speak to you, etc. as a way to hurt you or punish you is the silent treatment.

Sometimes it is very clear which you are getting. Other times it isn't obvious which it is.

Either way, it isn't really about you, and if you can avoid taking it personally you will cope better.

Hang in there! You are doing great!

 GK

It's hard when we kissed, were affectionate, and she told me she loves me to now, not talking since yesterday morning and posts to Facebook a meme that says, "God's going to put you on somebody's mind who's in a position to restore what you lost."  My first thought was that maybe God would restore what she lost if she would return what she stole.   :).  I'll be honest, I still struggle with not taking this stuff to heart at times.  Especially after the progress with our daughter the other night.  I guess I don't see the difference between "short" answers and the silent treatment.  We haven't spoken since yesterday.

She wants to engage you and keep you in the whirlwind. I say don't respond. You will get no where... .N/C for now... .

True enough that. Short answers and silent treatment are both ways to reject you, if that is what she feels the need to do.

I think you already know that nothing good will come from engaging in that sort of stuff shared on facebook as if it is aimed straight at you.

Which, even if it is, still isn't really about you--it is about her mood and her disorder.

 

 

I want to spike Grey Kitty's football... .


IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU... .

Just move along... .

I am doing well for the most part, and trying to not be involved in her unhealthiness.  I'm a lot better than I used to be.  Feeling a little uneasy and frustrated today since we haven't spoken since Friday.  I want to text her but probably won't.  I'm not giving in to her and the push/pull cycle she goes through and the control it brings.  I feel we made a lot of progress last week and yet can't move forward because she can't see the forest for the trees.  Again, I am looking at the positive that there wasn't some HUGE dysregulation that led to this and believing that she is just being as nice as she can be (GK's comments on her behavior). 

I've got a particular tool I used with the silent treatment while living together. At the distance you have, it is harder to accomplish, but the attitude behind it may help you.

This sort of rejection starts out with her being ANGRY about something and dysregulated. At that time, safe distance is a blessing, whichever of us initiates it.

The next 'phase' is one where she's staying away out of either inertia, habit, or some sort of lingering grudge. It is quite a bit softer than the first phase. She can still get 'stuck' in it for a long time.

At this point, I have to carefully check my own feelings. After a while, anger or hurt at the initial rejection starts to fade, and I often find some compassion for her--she is obviously miserable. Finding this compassion and acting on it is the key for me.

What I try to do is simply take an opportunity to give her a friendly 'touch'. Something like offering to make and bring her a cup of tea or a snack. A way of showing her that I'm open to her coming back and will welcome her... .without putting pressure on her to apologize, or discuss some sort of contentious issue with me. It is a small, friendly offer, with no expectations or strings attached.

Sometimes it is accepted. Sometimes it is rejected. I'm prepared for either, and won't take it personally. Often when it is accepted, it is like the ice all thaws instantly.

If it is rejected, I may make a similar offer again in a few hours or the next morning. The key for me is that I don't do this if I'm not feeling the compassion and love, and willing to be rebuffed without taking it personally. I don't do this as an obligation--that feeling would taint it emotionally, and she would be sensitive enough to see this and react badly.

The important part is packaging it up as a small loving touch, complete in itself, with no expectations or strings attached. I know that it is much harder to package up in a text message. When I do it, the non-verbal part is probably bigger than my words or the cup of tea.

This is key. I should have kept my mouth shut yesterday... .but I made a choice to "enter the fray".  And... .it eventually all turn out ok... .but I knowlingly violated that little voice that said... .you are not ready... .and your heart is not pure.

So... .yesterday morning she was grumbling and b___ing while moving from room to room.  I was in shower... and she comes in... .I don't even know what she is b___ing about... but it's obviously towards me... .and leaving was not the most convenient option.

So... .I tried to deflect... .she made a crack about being tired of being treated like a child.  (I held my tongue)... .but asked for help understanding... .as I continued to shower. 

So... she rattled off a series of "conclusions" that pissed her off... .again... her thoughts... on my thoughts... (which i don't have) made her angry.  So... .she says... well... ."THEN SCREW YOU!".

With an impish grin... .I turn off the shower... whip open the shower curtain... .and exclaim... ."well... .I'm nice and clean... and I think we have time before church if you want to have sex right now... ."  She stares at me a bit slack jawed... .but with fire in her eyes.  I attempted (back to part about checking my heart) to act like I didn't understand... .but I was actually about to laugh... ."Ohhh... .were you not asking to have sex?  Help me understand what you were trying to communicate... ?."  is something along the lines of what I said.

This was the equivalent of pouring gas on fire... .but... .at the time... .I didn't care... .and was actually quite proud of myself...

She picked up that I was making fun of her (I'm guessing what she picked up)... .and I'm sure it was invalidating... and not supportive.

Every once in a while... .it feels good to let off a good retort... .and not follow the rules. 

It helps me remember that I have made choices... .and I have the choice to choose to do something else. 

I also knew... .that this would most likely make it worse... in the short run... .AND IT DID.

After church... .she acted like nothing ever happened.  We had a great rest of the day... .

*) *)

So I texted her and said, "Good morning honey.  I wanted to check on you.  Anything you need?"  

No response... .Oh well.  Seems like the same old crap... .different day... .

double post... .

Honestly, I want to call her on her crap and double talk.  She has no problem doing it with me... .

 

Very understandable and genuine feelings on your part.

How would that help... .?

Just saying it out of emotion would not help.  What I'm frustrated with is she told me what was bothering her one day and thanked me for "taking the feedback so well", yet now, she won't talk through it.  Why?  Because it isn't about me and she doesn't think I'll understand, or just so mad she doesn't care?  Really having trouble with the 2 steps forward and one step back thing.  This time not necessarily such a big step back, but feels like it is in the moment.  It would make me feel better in this moment... .

So she won't respond to my text but post on facebook how "amazing" the nuts are her next-door neighbor made and brought over.  I'm starting to feel like I'm being slapped in the face.  Couldn't post to facebook how I put up her Christmas lights, but can post how her neighbor brought her pecans.  Yeah, I'm pissed at this point!   :'(

Yup, it bites.

Try to sit with the feeling as much as you can... .and avoid contacting her while you feel this way--nothing good will come of it.

 GK

It's very hard for me to sit with this feeling.  I hate it.  Don't know why she wants to hurt me intentionally (maybe she isn't in her mind) when I have done nothing for months but be there for her.  I really thought after what happened between us and our daughter last week that she would start to see things a little differently, BPD traits or no BPD traits.  I figured that if she was upset with me, she would talk to me about it because of how much we had worked through last week.  I told her Friday that when she was ready to work through it, I would be there.  I feel like a chump.  I'm sorry that I'm spewing stuff, just trying to get it out. 

Or... it could be that she hasn't thought of it anymore.  I would stay away... .as far away as I can from trying to figure out why she does things.

1. You won't ever know for sure... .so why speculate.

2.  You will expend a lot of energy and emotion... .on speculation.


You do have some legitimacy in the gripe about facebook. 

I'm not a facebooker.  I don't think digital things have anything to do with a r/s.  There is so much room for misinterpretation. 

But... I get the point... if she posts about everything else but you... .well... what's up with that.

That is far down on the list... .but at some point... .I would ask her.

Last note:  I would stop "keeping up" with her on facebook

Ain't that the truth!

My suggestion that you sit with a feeling like anger, frustration, sadness, hurt, resentment, etc., etc. ... .sure wasn't because it is EASY!

Instead I suggest it because you learn about yourself when you sit with these feelings.

That and I only know three ways of coping with my feelings:

1. Experience them.

2. Stuffing them to avoid dealing with them.

3. Getting lost in them, and reacting to them without any concern for consequences of those actions.

I listed them in the order I consider most healthy to least healthy. My capacity to be in the first position is limited. I will let myself take a break and go down to the second when I can't handle them anymore. Heck... .I've even indulged myself with door #3 occasionally. (I think that's where formflier went after his shower yesterday! lol )

Yeah, I sat there with them and just got madder and madder.  Once I calmed down, I texted and asked if she would like for me to get some Chinese take-out for dinner for everyone and bring it over.   No response.  Don't feel rejection this time, but instead almost laughing because ignoring someone is so childish, ridiculous, mean and hurtful.  Life is too short for that crap.  Grow up!

:) :) *) *) *)

Yep... .

Texted my wife to tell her to have a good day and that I loved her.  No response and that's ok.  I know formflier and others have told me to stop looking at her posts on Facebook and I am starting to understand why, but can't not look.  It's hard not to look and can't figure out why either, which means it isn't healthy.  I don't think she is doing well emotionally again.  I saw that she posted an article on Facebook titled, "10 Ways To Stop Treating Yourself Badly".  Didn't see it till after I texted her.  I'm beginning to wonder if this is all for attention (people post on her stuff and give her the "Go you" crap) at the same time for my "benefit" or lack thereof.  Again, I know people have told me I can't look at that and try and figure out what she means.  I'm wondering why she didn't have the normal dysregulation that she has had in the past and rage at me.  I know this sounds nuts, but that would have been better than this!  At least I would have had something to pin the rage on.

Couple things... .all of this is meant to help.  I am convinced that getting these items straight will dramatically improve your r/s and your outlook on life.

Stop wondering.  Be intentional.  Intend to learn a lesson... .decide what is healthy behavior for you to show in your r/s... and then show it.  Note:  I'm talking about your behavior... .because you control 100% of that. 

The only reason to "note" or "observe" your wife's behavior is to make sure you understand what tool to use... .or what the proper response is.  Also... .to make sure you don't invalidate.  At that point... .STOP thinking about your wife's behaviors... .thoughts... plans... .desires... .  Another way of saying... .don't wonder why.

This is for good and bad.  When she does good... validate and reinforce... .try to get momentum.

You know that you should not look at FB as much as you do.  If you are having a hard time stopping... .discuss that with your T... .

But... .you know what you need to do.  Do it. 

Another way:  You know what not to do.  Don't do that!

What more can I do to make this r/s better that I haven't already done?  I feel I am showing what is healthy in this relationship and just when I think there is momentum, it's derailed by her.  I know that is part of her BPD traits, and I know I can only control myself which is what I am trying to do.  I feel I'm doing very well staying "steady in the boat" with her and have for 5 months.  I am also looking at behaviors from her to help with the "tools" and not invalidate.  Maybe I did the other morning when I asked her about two issues that I thought may be bothering her.  I thought (because of what she said to me at dinner that she was trying to let more things go and "let me in", she would open up to me and instead, went completely silent.  I did very well validating her last week which she told me she saw I was different, and now this.  I try and text her this morning to have a good day and that I love her because it is true.  Honestly, for 5 months I have consistently put myself out there and yet I feel more and more taken advantage of.  Now it's time to come to getting the "car situation" taken care of and she drops off the map.  Convenient and typical of her behavior these last five months.

Maroon, are you saying that you find it uncomfortable that she's changing the brand or flavor of crazy she's throwing at you? Even though this version seems a little less toxic than the one you are used to?

If so... .that's OK. Change is uncomfortable.

GK, yes, pretty much.  It is uncomfortable because now it just seems more heinous, narcissistic and thought out. 

Stop wondering... .stop reading her FB.  Sorry... .you asked... .



Take some time out... .watch Empire Strikes Back... .in fact... .google for good Yoda quotes.  I think I've got it right when I recommend... ."no trying... .only doing"  or something to that affect.

Again... .I'm convinced you know what to do.  Do it.

Let me suggest that you spend more time with your feelings about it... .and less with your guesses as to her motivation.

One of my favorite sayings from one of my many wise friends applies here: "You won't find any cheese at the end of that maze."

And yes... .it *IS* hard to do it this way. That's the price of admission for being more emotionally mature about this than either she is, or you were before. And what it buys you will ultimately be more peace and an easier time doing the right thing, whether it is saving your marriage, or living well after ending it.

 GK

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