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First time in a long time I'm seriously considering if I'm truly able to keep up with this r/s  :'(

We're going through a massive push-part which has resulted him finding some new ladies online, meeting two of them and wanting to continue meeting her. He claims to be interested in her "just as friends" but did admit that in life, anything can happen. He dissociated to a bit different side of himself some three weeks ago, after a backflash triggered out of nowhere. The one that is deeply in love with me is missing and I have this guy that can say that yeah he doesn't want me out of his life and knows i mean a lot to him. But i'm distant to him, now, and new opportunities calling loudly.

He has talked with his T and she said that the dissociating is understandable (after a backlash) and so is starting a new relationship after that. But er what kind of comment is that? Yeah it's understandable all right, I know that much, but it doesn't make it  okey or to go away. :'( I don't think it's good for either one of us (probably not even to that new girl, either).  

We've talked about this and he knows how i feel, but says he really cannot relate to what i'm saying. Not at all. It's like in theory he knows something like this upsets a person and he apologized for making me sad but that's it. Even thanked me for being with him this long etc and said that he doesn't understand why I have put up with what he does this long.

He's aware that he is pushing me away and knows that it's something he does to the people who are important to him but doesn't seem to want to stop that. I know he wishes me somehow to stay where I am and allow him to explore freely, whatever happens.  

I have this urge to say that well if that new girl is so interesting, why don't you back your bag and go be with her.

I know this is a cycle and it will change again at some point. But it could be weeks or up to half a year. I told him I'm not ok with just watching him having a fling and patiently waiting to see what happens. I've seen these cycles before, i've been dumped and recycled and have told him that that's a boundary I simply have to maintain to maintain my sanity.

One way to think about this….

Validate yourself:

This is too painful and is out of alignment with my own values, I will need to create distance if you are going to continue to take this action.  [/i]

(By the way….”endings" are part of a process.  I think we get too caught up in our own black and white thinking and get panicked that this is THE END or this is THE ONE etc., when it’s really just all one long process that has a lot of openings and closings all along the way. This may be an ending for now. Boundaries do initiate endings.  Sometimes it initiates the ending of something dysfunctional making room over time for something more functional to emerge.  There has to be endings if people are ever to grow.)

Validate him:  I understand that you feel you need to take this action and will continue to do so for your own reasons.

There are so many great things about validation, but one of the things that it does, is put ownership squarely in the owners lap.  Arguing or trying to change or convince someone that they are wrong or need to change because they are hurting us or themselves…immediately distracts from ownership and invites tons of projection and distraction that muddies the water.

Hello Haye,

I'm sorry that this is happening to you at the moment, I can relate, maybe not with the infidelity, but with yet another cycle of my h wants and needs jarring with my own emotional values.

I'm going to cut and paste MayBeSo advice to you about validating yourself. I'm scared of an ending, because I know it will be me that has to end it and I'm scared, and that has left me open to exposing myself to emotional pain and abuse I never thought I would have done.

I hope you find a way to protect yourself from any future hurt because we are all worth more than that.

Yes, ending it is scary because of the possibility that they may get angry and retaliate.

I think it is a great post, MaybeSo. Don't be as concerned with what the other person might do than your own values. Can you live with this or not?

Hi,

I've had this happen to me a couple of times. The first time was when I was in my mid twenties. And, again, more recently. It's been a long time since the first experience of mine.

I keep this quote, from a Charles DeLint book, on my phone, as a reminder;

"I will not let anyone have power over me. Not ever again. I refuse to believe it."

This quote is from a character that had been abused. In my opinion, expecting someone to sit on the sidelines and watch behavior from your partner, such as you've described, is abusive. I wouldn't say that to your partner, yet it's still my view of it. I tolerated it for over six months with my wife. I'll never do that again. It's not a good thing to do for one's self. I no longer wait for people to change their minds. I go and do my own thing. Because, being in limbo is too hard on my heart.

Hang in there. Don't let anyone mess with your heart or head.

I don't necessarily close myself off to the possibility of anything happening ever again, with a current or ex partner. Unless they push past my own personal limit of forgiveness. (Which has happened more than once). Yet, I also don't sit and wait around. I open myself up to doing my own thing. And, if I meet other people, I'll open up to that too. Good things come to those that open themselves up to them.

"Action brings good fortune" - Syd Barrett

If its a boundary what is the matching action to protect this boundary, otherwise it is a demand not a boundary


Have you considered your bags for as long as it takes as a boundary consequence?

Wishful thinking and negotiations will get you nowhere

It's a valid point, IMHO. I have this paradox in my own situation. On one hand, I think exactly as you say, it's just a cycle. On the other hand, infidelity is not at all my value, and it affects me negatively. So what gives?

I end up enforcing a boundary when I get the feeling that there is nothing I can say that will bring her back to the person I chose, who says she loves me and doesn't want to leave me. To my understanding, there is the 'splitting thing in her mind', the all BLACK is me, and the all WHITE is the new 'friend'. Like she will say things that make no sense, just to make it look like 'we're not really compatible', or I 'should'nt put up that much with her', anything hurtful enough that I will feel like you do ("Why don't you do this with the new girl than?... .".

I have come to set a boundary of 'no competing relationships', like exes, or new 'friends' who are attracted to her. Now I get the 'it's them, it's not me' excuse, while this stuff keeps going on around her. Great progress!...    

But I will go with her to couple's therapy once all this 'static' is under control.

I have to watch on this because it really does eat at my self esteem. In her case, it's an addiction. She's been diagnosed with a sex addiction. She knows all about it and has been in specialized treatment for over a year now. I had to seek my own therapeutic support, and attend a partner's support group. Now I have my own go to trustworthy people, and it's, well, I can manage as long as she's committed to work on that, but not if she starts to slip back into the 'attitude' that I should be putting up with it.

After all, she DID picked me, knowing all along that I am monogamous and that's my values! I always was very clear about that. I did ask her, at one time, which one of the two positions is her values. She said monogamy. Therefore, I apply consistency and enforce boundaries.

Now when I hear that she wants to be 'friends' with me, and feels sexual towards another person, I remind her that it's not her values to go with that. She can, but I can't be a friend with her hurting me and not respecting my values, nor her own values. What would a good friend say?...


But as far as me, having sexual feelings for her?...    We'll see!...

Any thoughts?

I agree with that. 

Good points, people! A lot to chew on - when a boundary becomes a demand, for example. How what happenend can be seen as abusive. How to validate myself and him, and understand that and ending isn't necessarily ending the relationship. Thank you!

The situation now is that there's a sort of status quo. Seems like he is trying very hard. We've example gone to bed at the same time, instead of him staying up with computer and chatting with her/them. Some SMS's coming, but replying to them briefly (and i don't question who sends them). He spoke about meeting the girl to explain his situation, but if and when that will happen i don't know. I'm surprised how well he has been able to reflect the situation.

We've also talked about the future. He'd like to go back to studying and most he is interested in are far from here. To him it's not a problem but I don't think I'll be able to maintain a long distance relationship with him. Doesn't necessarily mean an end, no, but... .I don't know.

I think it depends on what you validate with him. For my relationship, I had to accept how my partner's addiction affected me. It's not possible for me to accept the cheating, the infidelity, the deceit. It's not healthy behavior. So I had to really thing very hard about what I liked about this person so much, that I would be willing to bend back with my values. The answer to this question is very personal. It depends a lot on yourself, your relationship, etc... But it's when I started to ask myself the questions you asked and to grapple with 'Is it OK for me to demand fidelity from a pwBPD?', that I had to go through some sort of moral entanglement, and go deeper in myself.

My values are:

- It's OK for me to ask for what I need in an intimate relationship with a consenting adult.

- It's OK for me to desantangle myself from someone with a personality disorder, if I see that the person's behavior does hurt me.

- It's OK for me to care for other people's suffering, even if their suffering I may never completely understand.

When I put these 3 values together in the same pot, I see that I have to come up with a number of nuances and degrees. I have limits. I can push onto some of them, but I have non-negociables.

Once that is clear for myself, than I am responsible to myself.

The 'demands' aspect of a long term relationship are more or less when you state your values and you say 'this is what I can live with; everything outside of that is not what I can live well with'. It's a core need.

For me, tolerating to try to build a sustainable intimate relationship with someone who is not willing to stop their sex or love addiction, is abusive on myself.

However, if I have stated clearly those values from the start to my partner, and if she takes me up as a conscenting adult, every acts of deceit are her responsibility in the abuse. Deceit does not build trust and safety in a relationship.

If, in an attempt to salvage the relationship, I back off from my core values, than I feel like I cheated on myself. It's a self-abandonment.

That would be cause for great concern.



I have been through that several times already. I have put up a boundary which includes not contacting former sexual partners. For a while, I felt like my SO, that maybe it's a bit rude and she needed to explain her new situation, so they would not feel (if they were non-monogamous), that she was being rude to them.

Well, it did not go well for us at all. It turned out that some of these past partners, or even some of these new 'friends' are people who do not share the sexual boundaries I have. Many have addictions of their own, i.e. would not let go, even after repeated text messages/phone calls, and meetings at coffeeshop for her to try to clarify the situation. I know there are other ways to do such thing. It's for her to figure that out. For me it came to be about how much of that traffic I am willing to 'wait out'.

Ditto your question.

The rolling over and over of the same issues, over time, and the keeping of the status quo, for me, is not recovery. It's recycling. There too, my partner has to go across her own value paradoxes and decide what she wants to live with in the future.

I will not make plans for the future until I see a clarity of intent and emotional positioning. That's a way to enforce a boundary to myself. Recently I have decided to withdraw from being in contact with her for a period of 30 days, because I see that she is sincere in working at bringing closure with them, but there is too much stuff going on. I have discussed that with her, and she has discussed it with her T. She told me when she was ready to start.

She's still doing the 'splitting', changing her mind rapidly, the same as before my decision though. She tried to call me right the next morning after she agreed on starting the 30 days NC. This is her stuff she's working on. I keep strong with my boundary because I know this is both what I, and her truely need. I am in belief that I am validating her doing this.

But again, it's not the same for everybody. It depends what the two people truely want, and if the pwBPD is working at recovery. And both, I have to conclude. I have to work on my stuff too.

 |iiii
|iiii

These are very good points, and well put.

This is the sort of clarity that we are aiming for on the staying board. Not hanging on and surviving. But getting to that place in your mind where you have accepted it is not ever going to be regular relationship, yet the self awareness to know your own mind and what you need to be able to thrive. Your core values indeed.

Finding your core values is not always easy as it is ingrained in most of us to follow a normal accepted pattern of values. We have to work out just what our own values are, not what society has ingrained in us. Our values unique to us, not just to fit in with what others may expect of us.

To determine these values we need to have them challenged, and a BPD relationship certainly does that. It is one of the reasons those that have been through these relationships have in the process found themselves, or drowned in the disorder.

It really is a sink or swim environment

Wow! waverider, thank you for that!... .I wouldn't go personally as far as saying that I needed this deep and this rough of a challenge. I have been happy in a 15 years stable, fully monogamous relationship before that one. But whatever I have learned about self-care and self-esteem, it's definitely a time to put it into practice.

This is the reason most people get through life without ever having to dig within themselves to find out what their core values are, as they are rarely under siege. However, to survive dysfunctional relationships it becomes essential.

If you think back to times prior to this you will probably remember times when you got all worked up about stuff that seems totally trivial in hindsight. It is human nature to get worked up about things from time to time. Perspectives are often lost as we are not thinking of the bigger picture, just reacting to the immediate frustration.

Not being reacting and getting things in perspective before acting (well more than I used to ) is something I have found that has flowed back into all aspects of my life, and greatly enriched it. Its not just a survival tool.

I'm thinking about that... I see what you mean here. Totally.

I beleive life does that. It could be anything major happening. Like maybe cancer. Or a disaster in your home town. Or having to start a new life in a different country/culture than your own. Or having an accident and having to learn to walk again. Surviving one of these relationships qualifies for that.


True.


That,  ... .is not because of the dysfunctional relationship. That's because of you. Of who you are when you faced a big one.

|iiii    |iiii    |iiii

People can have whatever expectations they want.  It’s a free world.

For you too.

It would feel abusive to me IF I PARTICIPATED IN cooperating WITH an EXPECTATION that was not in alignment with  my own values.

The expectation in and of itself, is not abusive.  People have a lot of ‘different ideas’ about how to behave in relationships and make requests or have expectations that are different than mine all the time.  I have to take care of my own boundaries.  It’s not someone else’s job to that for me, though I sometimes ask if they can,  and like it when I get cooperation.  Often, I don’t get cooperation…so then it’s all up to me to take care of my own boundaries.

That’s the hard part.  I don’t like some of the tuff decisions and corresponding actions I have to take if I am going to protect my own boundaries.  I may avoid doing that and wait in the sidelines hoping for cooperation from someone who is behaving in a manner I don’t agree with…

if it’s really yucky behavior…it will wear on me and I will start to feel sick. 

The person is just doing their thing.

Is it abuse?  Or am I cooperating with an abusive arrangement for my own complex reasons…one being…it hurts too much to take action on  my own boundary…so I avoid taking action.

Expectation is not abuse. Abuse comes into place when you try forcing compliance with your expectation.

Much like the difference between feelings and actions.

Unreasonable expectations are simply delusions of entitlement

Yes, it can be abusive to try to force compliance from a person. True.


Yup.

     I disagree. You are coming from a mathematical, intellectual viewpoint of the situation. We are talking about hearts and emotions. Relationships aren't logical. When I had been married for four months, my wife basically told me that she was going to begin an affair. (Which she had already started). It lasted for about half of a year, resulting in the termination of our marriage when she wouldn't stop. She expected me to sit there and watch. I was a young person, only 23 and didn't know how to handle the situation. I am not the 'I'm Going to Control Your Impulses' type. So, I gave her freedom. In retrospect, I feel that what she expected of me was indeed Abusive.

     Won't be arguing about this. The same totally forgiving attitude towards people's intentions is creeping into all areas of our society. There are certain situations where a person's expectations of another can be abusive. For example, expecting a partner to be okay waiting for you until 4am, while you are out drinking. There are certain things that simply do not take into account another's feelings. That some people have no natural empathy for others, is a real problem. Their lack of empathy doesn't justify their behavior, or their expectations. It's not an a + b = c sort of thing. Especially in relationships, where we are brought so much closer toward affecting others.

You're newlyweds. That's tough to go through. Affairs are painful I'm sorry, I can relate. You were young and she challenged your boundaries, it sounds like you were concerned with controlling someone else and she knew how far she could push your boundaries.

Your post is a good idea and it warrants exploring in a new thread? Take this idea and create an OP.


This is so true  |iiii

I think floating is making an important point relevant to the original post from Haye here, and the subsequent posts.

It would be one think if we encounter our BPD partners and they identify as people who want not to have constraints or expectations about fidelity placed on them.  If we choose to tangle with that with eyes wide open, so be it.

But for a lot of us, that's not how it worked.  The initial presentation was of a person who was intensely committed and very possessive.  There are expectations of fidelity that go along with that presentation and we are not controlling or abusive for having those expectations.

And for someone to present as those they have those values, and then do a bait and switch and start acting completely contrary to the values they appeared to hold, and then invoke the original commitment we pledged to them ... .that CAN be an abusive dynamic.

It's different if we are years and many recycles into these situations and we knowingly walk back in expecting the person to be other than who and how they are.  I agree.  But that doesn't sound like the OP's situation here.

Well said!...   I agree with that. 

Now I think hard into what waverider says, and pwBPD do indeed challenge our boundaries. Yes. OK. But messing up with other people's sexual boundaries is something else.

I am still new to this board and obviously still learning. I am wondering though, if there are long term folks who have succeeded in both partners staying and maintaining fidelity. And how they managed the yucky parts...

And if someone knows about stats on the degree of incidence of infidelity in pwBPD.

--

See, I can under~stand that someone might have difficulties to trust that a partner will want to stay with them if they have difficulties with having the disorder themselves. And of course, the difficulties coming with having to have someone-with-self all the time.

But I don't find it ok when a partner w BPD does pick an openly monogamous/stable person, than does a series of quick turn arounds (for their mysterious reasons), and claims in afterfact that 'they have always done this', and pick play-partners who are just using the language of recovery to instigate sexual betrayal, because those don't believe in recovery. Same with quick emo-replacement partners, who don't beleive in accountability.

That 'attitude' is what is abusive. This way one day, and the complete regrets the next day, as sincere as might be, it does not go without grating on the partner's self-esteem.

People just don't come with a warning sign, and it takes two to tango, I agree, but there is a degree of personal engagement involved with even considering to love a pw PD. So there maybe more nuances needed than saying 'just pick your bags if you're not happy with that'.

@MaybeSo, I didn't feel quite right about reading your words yesterday. I agree with everything you say, as I see a value to your point. And given the context, as patientandclear mentioned, and given my own personal moment right now,  I felt somewhat triggered by reading your response. Maybe you can unwrap this by giving us an example of what you meant. For sure, I don't want to miss a good point.


I liked that part. That made me think some more. If I think about the scenarios I have found myself 'involuntarily subscribed to' since I started to go this recovery road with my partner, well, that's a good point.

To me it means that I have to pull out for a while and see. However, it would be great to hear about how you folks got from that point on to staying, without letting your SO erode your boundaries. In your own words.

Afterall, we all like to be *seen* in this too. I suppose coming to this board is a part of what we are doing for ourselves.

 

Looking back, since that's how our relationship began too, I have to ask myself how in the world did I not realize that BOTH of us were a little off? lol  The thing is, I'm pretty sure subconsciously I did, and that's what was so attractive.  I met my match!  Then came the power struggles... .

Had to tone some of that down a few notches.

Phoebe, are you talking about your intuition you had when you two met?

Are you saying that you felt someting was there, but you could not tell what it was, just later when you looked back, you had that clearer feeling that you both had something 'a little off'?

Extrapolating than, would you say that any of the 3 examples in patient's quote could possibly have a quality of being 'a bit off'?

What I'm saying is that being intensely committed and very possessive early on in a relationship is a big  .  We were instantly attracted to each other.  We met at a party, locked eyes across the room, all that dreamy fairy-tale stuff.  It felt so real, like everything I had ever hoped for!  He came on strong and I responded like a moth to a flame.

That's all fine and dandy until "reality" set in.  One false move and all emotional hell broke loose.  False meaning real.

That beginning had nowhere to go.  It wasn't really real. The attraction itself was real, but we didn't know each other to be staking claims to each other.

So looking back, having actually spent "real time" together, building up to where we are now, yes, I can say that we were both a tad bit off when it all began.

 

So did you end up working on your issues, each one on his/her stuff?

Haye, back to your situation. This caught my eye.


Do you say this because you simply do not want a long distance r/s with him?

Or do you mean that you won't be able to trust hm to be faithful if it is a LDR?

I think it's sort of both. First of all, yes, I don't trust him to be faithful if in a LDR – I basically trust him to have a fling after another (girls just fall on his feet where ever he goes, it's like magic). I think I might even life with him having just meaningless sex but that's not his thing - he gets very tangled with those girls, going steady immediately, being totally into the new girl (or three  ).    The Object Constancy is really big problem to him, people just cease to exist if they are not around. Takes only couple of days to happen . It does depend a bit on what part of cycle is going on, but if he is mentally distant from me (in a push-mode) AND physically somewhere else... .Yeah well. Not good. He himself thinks LDR would work fine, as he has had many LDR's before, but then again that has allowed him to have more than one relationship going on and breaking hearts in serial way.

As for now. Things are... .Difficult. We've discussed and both know this is likely to be just a part of a cycle. But it doesn't help much. He is slightly saddened to see me unhappy, even offered he could act the way he behaves while in the other end of the cycle. I said thanks, but no thanks, I value honesty. He also said he wants me to hate him, hate him hard, so much that i would not want to see or hear of him ever again (so he could kill himself, knowing what he did to me and knowing nobody would care anymore). I said sorry, i don't do the hating. I might have to end our relationship to keep what ever is left of my sanity, but I know it'll take me long time to stop loving him and I doubt i'll ever stop caring.

It's a lonely thing. Outside this forum I can't talk to anyone else about this. I mean there's few people I probably could pour my heart out, but they won't really understand. I'm not sure I really understand.

Is he aware of this lack of object consistency?

Do you think LDRs make less of an issue (even excuse) of this lack of object consistency?

He is aware of it yes. When in closer state of mind he worries about it if we are to be apart for more than a day or two. Once he went to a week long holiday and packed my scarf with him, so he could sniff it occasionally. Says my scent helps him to keep the connection alive, like keeping a memory fresh, or something like that. But says it's probelmatic too, as it can also make missing me worse, trigger feelings of abandoned.

I've understood LDR's are easier for him as he can control the amount of time he gives to someone. With LDR he can be as distant mentally as he feels like. When living together he sees me everyday and now that he is distancing himself he is face to face with me trying to cope with the situation (I wish I was better with this, but i'm not). If we were in a DLR he could just skip thinking what I feel and remember my existence when it is good for him. When in LDR and distant mentally, his friends and loved ones exist in the background, but are not close to him.

I guess part of what looks like a constancy problem it is him being dissociative. He says there's like a vail or a shadow between him and other people. I might be in the same room, or even in his arms and hugged by him and yet he feels far from me, lurking in the shadows.

Did you discuss with him the possibility that he might have a sex or love addiction?


Do you have the possibility to get therapeutic support for yourself?

For me, even if it was not for an extended period, it was immensely beneficial.


Totally!...    I know what it feels like...

Sorry so long in responding.  This is about boundaries and self-care.  I think it is apropos of the thread's topic.

Quote from: MaybeSo on January 12, 2015, 08:29:47 PM


   
My posts tend toward stimulating curiosity about self empowerment and responsibility for personal boundaries. Along with radical acceptance of what 'is' not what I wish it were like.  I tend to move in that direction with my posts, b/c I spent 4-5 years posting about my partner's behavior and was miserable and confused the entire time.  Not that there isn't a place for curiosity and a learning curve about mental health issues.  When I stopped the focus on my partners behavior, and turned my attention to my own behaviors, I finally began to find some relief from my suffering. Over time, I got myself back again.  And it feels good. That was a crazy ride, let me tell you.

So, there is nothing mathematical or impersonal about  my observation or experience. My apologies if it appeared that way from my post.  My statement that a person can have whatever expectations they want is true, not because I like it or because I say so, or because I am impervious to other's behaviors... .and not even because I agree or tolerate all behaviors unconditionally or have a woo-woo attitude toward forgiveness... .I made the statement that people can do what they want... .because it's just true... .indeed, people can DO pretty much whatever they want.  I am in no way implying that a person's behavior shouldn't have consequences.  That's the whole point.  There should be consequences.  People get hurt, people feel used, abused, misinformed, deceived, misguided, duped, I could go and on with adjectives we might feel based on other's actions.  People can STILL have whatever expectations they want, or behave however they want.  We hope most people in our lives would choose not to continue to behave in a hurtful manner, but the fact is, some people we meet will continue to behave as they behave regardless of outcome or feelings.  This tends to be common with certain disorders. It happens all the time.  Doesn't mean I like it or agree with it... .but a lot goes on in the world regardless of how I feel about it. That's also a fact.   If it is abusive or hurting ME, their behavior is providing me information that I have to then act on the best way I can.  That's part of taking care of my own boundary. Because someone else can't be relied upon to take care of it for me.  I can ask for cooperation, but if I don't get it, it really is up to  me.  If I ask a person to please stop a behavior, and they don't... .that's further information for me and it helps me to make further informed decisions about my own self-care.  Not without some pain!  Often some very painful experiences inform painful decisions... .this is  true. There's no getting around that.   There is no mathematics here.  I have five years of pain ridden posts.  I have intimate understanding that these relationships can be shockingly painful. That is a given. Now what? We still have to take care of our own boundaries and be in touch with our decisions based on our own values.


I'm sorry you were triggered.  My comments are meant to stimulate further reflection on self, as the stuff outside of us is not in our control.



I'm glad this made sense, though it might not to everyone. That's fine.  I used the word "I".  That's was how I would feel, I do understand that others have different feelings and different experiences than I do. That too is a given. The fact is, I have cooperated at times with things that felt painfully out of alignment with my own values, and sometimes got very angry with the person I was cooperating with... .when I really just needed to take better care of myself, and not try so hard to analyze or fix or control someone elses differing or ever-changing values. My values are the only values I have any control over. |iiii

None of this is easy.

From Waverider... .


Very true.

Going back a bit (cutting some)
Unlike some of you, we didn't start as intensily committed and possessive. Nor the burning desire or him devoting me as I've heard many cases here have. We started very loose and free, we were something like working collegues. I wasn't doing wquite ell then, had just lost my father and he started to take care of me (and my kids). Talking, listening, cooking for me etc. All of a sudden I had a person in my life who was dedicated in healing me, making me feel better. I did see a tiny red flag, realized right in the beginning on that my softspoken and gently new friend carries a huge load himself but didn't worry much as people tend to have all kinds of baggages. We started to trust oneanother and opening up, etc. (no sex or a relationship other than just friends, though i was developing a major crush without even realizing it). He had some LDR's then, seemed loose, didn't mind as we were friends. To cut a lot of details let's just say that I began to see the bad sides, the ones he tries to hide from anyone else. I loved the fact he found me interesting and lovely when I was at my worst – seeing me exactly as I was and still liking the picture.


I've tried to mention, but he claims there is no pattern like that. It isn't a sex addiction, that I know, as sex is difficult for him due traumas. I believe he is somehow addicted to the way he gets women to open up to him. Because that's what he does. He feels lonely himself, or bored, or whatever and finds girls or women ieither IRL or online. The ones who aren't doing well mentally – depressed, suicidal, traumatized, social phobiacs, all kinds (did try once a schiczophrenic but said that was too weird). He listens to them, helps them, nurtures them... .wins their trust. And at some point, usually when they are madly in love something happens. He changes. Looses interest, becomes cold, distant, even a bit cruel.

Sometimes this is clearly dissociative, seems like sex or love triggers the bad side out.

Sounds a lot like my ex (addicted to getting women to open up to him), though we did start with love bombing and this pattern was well-concealed from me. He acted like he'd been alone for a long time. Took me a while to grasp that alone meant "I ended all the other relationships."

Anyway, the thrust of most of the comments here has been: don't expect people to be other than who they are, once you find out what that is. Is this habit of engaging other women emotionally something you can tolerate?

This is very similar in pattern to the person in my life, too.

I would broadly look at it as love addiction. 

I am pretty sure until the last 10-15 years, the person in my life had no clue that his behavior stimulated strong attachment responses in women and often left them very very hurt.  Like an addict, he was ‘using’ to manage his own emptiness and dysregulated states and when you are basically nice during the upswing of use…if anything, he seemed to think he was a really really nice guy…and if anything…when the drug wore off as intimacy settled in, and he goes cold and wanders off …he didn’t get it at all that the angry, hurt reaction from women had anything to do with HIS behavior at all.  In fact, HE felt like the victim of the woman’s anger.  He thought HE was this guy who does so much for others and is so kind and wonderful and that HE usually ends getting the short end of the stick. This mirrors the feel of his relationship with his mother.  It is very difficult for him to keep it in his mind that women fall in love with him and find his sudden cold withdrawal to be horribly confusing and horribly painful.  Until he had that experience with me and was in therapy at the same time…he never connected the dots between his behavior and the resulting angry women at all.  It fit too closely into his own schema and cellular expectation that HE is the victim, always. I think in the last 10 years he has at least grown to connect the dots in therapy but can’t ‘hold the picture in his mind’ at all times…but I think he struggles to stay away from women to a degree now…b/c he knows more about what is going on and his part in it…he knows even through it’s going to be wonderful at first…that he hurts people.  I think having that knowledge now…does concern him. But he is an addict.  How he will ultimately choose to handle his addiction is up to him.  I can’t do anything about another person’s addiction.  One of the reason’s I don’t view his behavior as abuse anymore, is because I do not believe his intent was ever to hurt people.   Hurt people hurt people.  That’s how it works.

That doesn’t mean I wasn’t suffering horribly through a emotionally abusive relationship when I was in the middle of it and had no clue what was going on.  I kept thinking…this is the weirdest behavior, I’ve never in my life seen a man act this way before…what is this? He must be a monster to do this!  Much later, I realized, his patterns actually are not dissimilar at all from my father’s behavior for years.  I hate to keep proving Freud right, but, there you go.

THIS.

I'm starting to see something in my wife, at least over the last decade or so that shows a similar pattern without apparent awareness.

Her version is that she flirts / broadcasts interest / intimacy to a LOT of guys (besides me).

Eventually, a guy is shows interest in her (Sometimes mostly emotional, often more sexual). She honestly seems gobsmacked at the reaction/response. She claims she doesn't know what to do with it, that she doesn't know what the guy wants with her, or where it is going. Often she also claims she isn't particularly interested in him, or that she is just a friend with him. And while making that claim, she continues to feed his interest in her, continues to give him attention, flirt, etc.

Typically they turn into some sort of relationship, and the ending isn't a predictable blowup or even a predictable pattern. Other than that she doesn't want any of this to end her marriage to me.

I'm the participating, I'm feeling betrayed, and getting hurt. (And trying to look hard in the mirror.)

MaybeSo, does her behavior sound like a similar sort of love addiction to you?

I think the more I study about human attachment, I can see how easily the arena of attachment aka love or exchange of energy or whatever you want to call it, is rife to become a seat of addiction for so many of us. Love, attachment, one of the basic human needs, like food or water…becomes a dependency.  Further, it’s not having the right kind of attachment in the early years of life, or at the far end of the spectrum attachment mingled with abuse... that sets people up for addiction.  

We know attachment with a secure caregiver is where we first experiment with our own emotional regulation…it is through connection with a regulated caregiver that we learn to regulate ourselves and get a sense of self. We know this from studies on infant attachment since the 1950s.  We can predict a child’s attachment style to a parent with 75% accuracy from the Adult Attachment Interview conducted while the couple is pregnant.  We know how important early attachment is!  With certain disruptions in attachment in infancy,  a person will have painful, unregulated states and the instinct is to find a person who will help us to regulate our nervous system but not in a healthy way, more like a drug, there’s a dependency... that’s what a baby does to regulate mood…through the gaze of another, through the energy exchange that goes on between two people, that’s how we are wired.   Add in the sex drive later, and well, ya, it gets complicated, doesn’t it?  Attachment, love, it’s all necessary. That’s how people become whole people, gain a sense of ‘self’ , gain object constancy, begin to regulate our own moods. Those developmental steps do not occur if it get’s interrupted…we need someone helping us to do that through our attachment system with a caregiver’s attachment system in the first year and ongoing.  If that get’s interrupted or damaged…if getting close to a caregiver doesn’t provide regulation but anxiety, unpredictability and in the worst case, terror and disorganization…then we continue to look outside ourselves to regulate our emotional states and get a sense of self (dependency) and we are paradoxically triggered by our source of regulation and safety. The worst symptoms of BPD mirrors a baby with a disorganized attachment system.  Babies with disorganized attachment tend to dissociate a lot, too.  It is a complicated developmental system that can get interrupted at anytime along the way.  But I can easily see how in addition to drugs and alcohol and shopping and food etc.…how a human being can use their own and other’s attachment systems as a kind of dependency source. Just like a drug.  That’s why Patrick Carnes book on sex addiction is titled Don’t Call It Love.  It’s not healthy, grown-up love…it is using the attachment system of self and others as a ‘fix’.  It’s not done to hurt people, anymore than an addict drinks with the intention to hurt others…they drink to medicate pain, emptiness, anxiety, depression…all the symptoms of unmet attachment needs.  :)evelopmentally to become an adult and whole and healthy we are to move beyond that and exchange energy with others in healthy, mutually satisfying ways.  It can be very confusing to the person who suffers with this, and of course confusing and painful to those they try to attach to, b/c it can look very normal until it begins to feel sick or until someone gets hurt over and over again. We don’t think someone with an eating disorder is sick when we share a meal with them, but if we catch them in kitchen later binging and purging…then we think WOW…something is seriously wrong here.  

When we get hooked into this, it says something about our own unmet attachment needs, too.  We know that tons of people never get addicted to drugs, for example, but some due.  Genetic loading and a deficit or unmet need that has been there all along suddenly gets met and BAM…we are hooked.  It seems when there’s been a deficit somewhere there, a wound, a hold, a sore spot, or in some cases our own attachment disorder…that the fix gets triggered and pump is primed for addiction.  I think I was in an addictive process myself during the worst of experience with my partner.  What a painful and frightening place to be. That’s why turning you attention to yourself and a one day at at time mentality, and really accepting you have no control over others… is the path out of the woods.  That is not to say anyone might not get their attachment system activated by a wounded person and get very wounded themselves, and need to really go through a healing process to get better. I have seen a few people be on this board for just a could of months, sound really healthy and clear this was not a healthy relationship, grieve on the leaving board, and move on. But that rarely happens.  Usually we are here a long time suffering.  When you feel like you can’t let go of something really bad for you…and that goes on for a long long long time and it starts impacting your life in a big way…that’s an addiction IMHO. That is not love.  You can get better. I don’t think I’m in an addictive process with the person in my life anymore who has BPD traits.  I think he and I see each other much more clearly than we did during our first years together and take care of ourselves better.  But I also know I have some wounds that make me susceptible to certain kinds of interactions and romantic scenarios so I have to be on top of that for myself always.

I like the way Stan Tatkin puts it (psychobiological approach to couples therapy)  Almost no one in the arena of attachment and love is doing anything purposefully. We make a huge mistake in projecting reasons and stories onto another about why they behave a certain way romantically or in attachment settings.

The story is almost never what is really happening.   That’s why good therapists don’t get too caught up or attached to the details of the story. They will validate your and you will feel heard…but they don’t get hooked into the story.

My partner and I had two very conflicting stories with years of anecdotal evidence about what he did that was awful and hurtful... .what I did that was awful and hurtful…he’s this, she’s that…bla bla bla bla…on and on the stories go.

If I saw me and my partner in therapy today… I’d assess as follows:

Her: anxious attachment style, dependency issues being triggered by partner / intimacy

Him: avoidant attachment style leaning disorganized under stress;  untreated mood disorder

       dependency issues being triggered by partner / intimacy

These two haven’t a CLUE about how they are inadvertently (without awareness) re-traumatizing each other over and over again and haven’t a clue how and why their natural attachment styles are immensely triggering to each other. [/i]

-Chances for improvement would depend heavily on their ability, willingness and motivation to stop looking outside of themselves (including blaming each other) for the answers or as a way to fix their own dysregulated emotional states and dependency needs.

-Neither one of us are bad people, neither of have has a goal to hurt each other or anyone else. (yes either of us might intentionally be nasty in the middle of a fight or take action to punish the other if we felt we had been punished or harmed)…but neither of us as a person has any desire or goal to hurt anyone or give someone a bad time romantically.  I believe that is true for him and for me, both.  I think that is likely true for most of the people on this board.  There are always acceptions, but I believe that is true most of the time.

Wow! MaybeSo, GK and patient, thank you for sharing your inputs into this.

It speaks to me very much. 

ADDICTION is the ANTIDOTE to INTIMACY

—

That’s interesting because I sense that when I have what I call this ‘natural boundary’ of fidelity in a monogamous relationship, I refer to this blurred background felt experience for myself that this is the grounds I can let myself open up into. Where I feel safe enough to feel loved and to grow my love for someone. Where I can trust.

In this relationship, I felt that there was this potential, but I also knew that there was a lot of work needed. For both of us. From the start. Having work to do for my own never bothered me. It’s either this way or another. Thus the desire to stay admist the challenges, and the loving feelings found at the onset of small victories. Rewards.

What is strange and interesting at once, is that I see that I have developed the ‘avoidance’ undesirable traits. To my understanding, it has to do with the unstability of the bound. The rapid cycling of switching between one landscape and another, both radically opposite. I cannot ‘land’. Sometimes I think I develop those traits as a responsive way ‘to be with’ my BPD partner. Like in ‘going there with her’, ‘feeling this with her’. Going east, going west, going back east again, and than west again, I get exhausted. I need a break. I sort of trust her, but I still cannot ‘land’.

One thing I had to learn to do is to recognize when I go to shame. Automatically, so to speak. I know that it’s a part of being sexual boundary-busted. I did not sign up for the scenario. I met someone who did not want that either. I actually believe that. So I waited for her to ‘get to it’. I met something which reveals that as a human being, I can get hurt. I’m not invincible, and the others are not there to protect and nourish me.

I understand the idea of people becoming addicted while having hurtful experiences with a pwPD. It’s a good process concept. If the BPD mate is not working on breaking the cycles of unhealthy coping behaviors, than the partner is going against the current, so to speak, to keep re-directing the efforts to healthier ones. It's Hard Work. Granted, if one is having to accept this state of affair for an extended period of time, it can rub on the partner. It can run you tired also. Where you lose your sense of directions.

In my situation, I see more of a situational, an adaptative, a learnt behavior there than a matching injury pattern. For me. So far. But I see how it could become a co-addiction. Like if I get hurt, and I don’t take serious time to properly visit those spots and heal, I could make the mistake of blaming it all on the disorder of the other, and than be very vulnerable to get attracted to someone new with matching sore spots. Like attracted to a mirage of fulfillment, while what I need instead is just healing. Chances are that with the images we carry in our society about how love relationships are supposed to be, we are being challenged to try even harder to separate our feelings from canned fantasies. The sore spots don’t help.

I would like to think that when two educated people (me & my SO) get caught into this type of attachment challenge, we now have so many useful concepts we can refer to in order for us to choose healthy detachment and personal responsibility, within the relationship. It’s mindbogling that it’s so unpopular. Is it really just a peptide issue?




MaybeSo, thank you very much for sharing a bit of your story. I can see how your life work has helped you define a very articulated clinical model. You surely went for it!

I like to see that in your opinion, we are more as a human species than our dis~eases.

It looks like you did go the long haul in this process. I’ll take a bow to your conclusions, especially with the reflection I could glance from reading a few of your fisrt posts on bpdfamily. I really enjoyed reading them. I laughed so hard at the way you said it, it was so frank, and it was spot on like I feel myself to be in my boat at times.

And thank you everybody, for the bits of truth and validation you added to this thread. I find this very useful... Way better than the movies!

    |iiii

Maybeso, this is exactly the diagnoses that my dBPDh and I have been diagnosed with (although I would add addiction to His description).  We have recently started attachment couples therapy (not Tatkin but another California couple, they also do the therapy with both therapists and the couple present).  It has already been relationship changing and we have only been working with them for a month. 

As you have brought up Carnes, have you ever read The Betrayal Bond?  I think it pretty well describes what happens in relationship with an SA (also with BPD).  Carnes has some interesting work. 

All this about attachment theory got me wondering. So I took the first online quiz I found googling. www.psychology.about.com/library/quiz/bl-attachment-quiz.htm

I'm currently in a crisis in my marriage, and I tried to answer in the way I thought I felt... .at a 'normal' time instead of a crisis time. After I finished, I wondered about that choice, and took it again, answering with how I felt today.

My first result was a secure attachment style, and my second was an anxious attachment style.

Interesting, GK.  My understanding is that our relationships can affect our attachment style because we can be a mixture of styles (avoidant, anxious and secure).  Dealing with infidelity made anxious attachment become the dominant style for me in this relationship.  I have to say that I really hate it!  I am feeling more and more settled but at its peak it was like being someone else, kind of an out of control feeling for me.  So I am not sure how much the anxious attachment style is about trauma for me (PTSD) within this relationship or about my own childhood attachment with my parents.  I had a pretty good and healthy relationship with my parents until they divorced around 13.  So that abandonment probably counts for some of my anxiety but having a spouse that has been unfaithful definitely heightened that feeling.

In the Betrayal Bond, Carnes says that sometimes, reconciliation with the betraying person is possible and even good. But he says that is only the case where the betraying person has taken responsibility for the harm done and essentially made amends. Then the reconciliation can be healthy -- not addiction based (I don't think he says "not addiction based" but that seems like the motive to reconcile when the harm has not been eliminated and the betrayed person is likely to be re-harmed in the same way).

In the Betrayal Bond type analysis, it is pretty irrelevant what the reasons are for the betraying behavior (sociopathy, BPD ... .). What matters is that first, trust was cultivated; second, an intentional impression of safety was created; third, that safety was violated; fourth, there is no immediate sincere and permanent repair. (I'm summing up--that is not how Carnes breaks down the components.)  Those steps characterize most of our r/ships here (and ironically, that is probably also true in the minds of our BPD partners).

So if we suffer that harm, what of the BB concept that it would only be healthy to re-enter the r/ship after acknowledgement and amends and repair from the betraying partner?

That would mean that our BPD partners would heal enough to be able to acknowledge responsibility for the hurtful behaviors and stop doing them consistently. Is this possible for BPD in recovery to come to that?

Rarely from all I've learned here ... .But I'm actually asking about us. Regardless of whether it's likely that someone with BPD can or will do this, that is the sole condition under which Carnes says it's ever healthy to resume a relationship with someone who has systematically betrayed your trust. I'm asking here, related to the OP's situation and many similar situations, if folks agree with that. Or is Carnes wrong.

Carnes's view does not square up with relationship repair approaches that emphasize understanding why your partner has hurt you, forgiving, trying to meet those needs in a positive way. Looking at our own behaviors and trying to improve the r/ship by changing them.

I think Carnes would say there is a categorical difference between someone who hurts his partner in a r/ship (as we all do) in the normal course of life; and systematic betrayal that involves first building up a false and manipulative sense of connection, and then acting against those representations in a profound way. A way that produces the kind of traumatic reactions we see on these boards, way beyond typical hurt feelings in a r/ship on the rocks.

Interested to see if people here think Carnes' view on healing is wrong and that healing can happen while attached to someone who continues to inflict hurt.

P&C, Thank you for that summary. It is pretty much exactly how I'm feeling about my situation, even though I've not read BB. (And I see that as of today I've got the unhealthy option to re-enter my r/s.)


Is it possible? I'm saying yes... .and punting on how it can happen, or how likely it is to happen. But I do have one data point with my wife:

Our marriage was filled with verbal/emotional abuse on her part. After a lot of work and boundary enforcement on my part... .and a lot of work on her part, she did.

Fairly early on, she acknowledged that she was behaving abusively toward me and that she was remorseful. (But couldn't stop) Then she had a long hard breakthrough, where she let go of a bunch of self-hatred and started loving herself. And POOF. The abuse vanished. I still had my boundaries, but she stopped trying to get past them.

There is a whole 'nuther step on this regarding cheating/infidelity that she has to take, and right now she's at the phase of admitting that she did something wrong. (At least some of the time)

So I believe she can get to that stage of recovery.

P&C,

I am not exactly sure about your question regarding Patrick Barnes and his attitude about healing?

In general, the person who is reading the book, either the one who is identifying as the victim or the one identifying as the perpetrator, is responsible for their own healing. I think Patrick Barnes and most anyone in the psych or recovery industry would agree on that, I think.  (qualifying that I don’t have time to pull out all my P. Barnes books to do research on his specific comments)…but I think that is sort of the general consensus across professions, at least that is what I have seen. That a person's chances of recovery (either the addict or the ‘co-addict’) in moving toward healthier relationship dynamics either with their current partner or with someone else in the future, is dependent upon their motivation and understanding of themselves, learning to care for themselves, learning safe coping skills, replacing dangerous coping mechanisms with heathy coping mechanisms,  learning to act on effective emotional boundaries, grieving their losses, feeling their feelings, managing difficult emotions, understanding and getting their needs met in safe, effective ways, asking for help and getting support,  etc. And that would be true for the offender, as well as the person involved with the offender or “co-addict" who has been traumatized.

Both of these people are traumatized. 

 

I don't really see them as opposing views but things that can be done in tandem.  Carnes' views have evolved over time but having the addict own their behavior is the first step in relationship repair and builds a bridge between the partners.  After that it is much easier for a partner to offer forgiveness and they both learn to address and meet their needs individually and as a couple in a positive way.  In our case, it didn't exactly work that way.  Probably because of BPD and not just SA, I had to get to a place of acceptance and understanding before my dBPDh was willing to really own his behavior and make amends to me.  As long as I had reactivity and wasn't understanding my dBPDh couldn't be vulnerable enough to own his behavior.  (Not sure if I am being clear, I know what I mean but don't think I am articulating it very well.) :)

Grey Kitty--yeah, I was very much thinking of your situation as well as OP Haye's when I wrote those questions.

MaybeSo, the specific question the Betrayal Bond seems to pose for these situations is not about how the individuals heal generally, but whether the person betrayed can heal while in continued intimate contact with the betrayer.

I think Carnes in the Betrayal Bond is not talking about the harm done by all dysfunctional relationships or all r/ships where addiction causes hurtful behaviors. I think he is using "Betrayal" to mean a more specific violation, which I tried to specify above as a particular kind of violation of trust when that trust was secured in deceptive or manipulative ways, systematically if you will; and or a lot of effort was made by the betrayer to create an impression of safety and trust but with no intention to follow through on that (maybe with no comprehension of what that would mean). There is some significance to the huge gap between claimed intentions and actual actions that becomes traumatic to be on the receiving end of. I do see many of our BPD r/ships in that category, maybe not all. No doubt those who perpetrate such traumatizing betrayals are themselves traumatized, but the focus for Carnes in that book is how to move forward after this was done to you. And he says continued connection with the betrayer is only healthy if there are amends made and responsibility taken.

Missy's account suggests that it went otherwise in her r/ship. Which, if that r/s falls into the "betrayal" category which Missy would have to be the one to say, would be different from what Carnes proposes.

I believe Carnes is coming out with an updated Betrayal Bond.  His theory has evolved over time and for there to be full marital recovery, he is still very clear that personal responsibility and amends are necessary.  I happen to agree, as there was definitely a couple of years of betrayal in our 17.5 years of marriage and a lot of emotional abuse.  I would not have stayed in my marriage without this being a part of it.  Because of my dBPDh's multiple diagnosis, it has taken a lot of work and a slightly different approach than was originally laid out.  CSATs (trained by Carnes) have become more familiar with PDs over the last few years, as it is much more common among SAs.  As they have incorporated different approaches and modalities into the recovery work, it has become apparent that things are not always as linear as originally laid out.

Interesting. Thanks Missy. The role of responsibility and amends and acknowledgement of the betrayal aspect of what happened (or is still happening ... .For GK and Haye) seems like the crux of the matter. Even if not linear. Thanks for sharing that.

My current 'plan' sounds more like MissyM's experience--taking responsibility and making amends will be critical. I do not believe that simply taking a hard line with my wife will get her to do this.

More specifically, I've been trying to set hard, even harsh boundaries... .and insisting that my wife to make amends.

Now I realize that she cannot do this... .until she really takes responsibility. Right now, her disorder is preventing it. She's kitchen-sinking a bunch of other relationship issues with it to justify it.

*IF* I want to save my marriage... .my path is one of sucking up a bit, and working on validation and working on shifting things that didn't work for her. Letting her 'stand down' so to speak. Getting her in a safer place with me where she can be more open and vulnerable. Giving her room to really take responsibility for the harm she's done to me.

Only then will she be able to make amends.

This was the path to a final good resolution that my wife and I found after a prior infidelity-lite event involving a different guy that played out through annual contact opportunities over a few years.

MissyM, does this strategy sound similar to the healing process in your marriage?

Thanks for that MissyM! It has been that way in my limited experience as well.

Yes, that was most of it.  Also being really clear that for me to be in the loving, intimate relationship I want with my husband that we both have to be in active recovery with no infidelity.  Once I could get where that was how I felt without the anger/rage about the infidelity or trying to control what his active recovery looked like, my dBPDh was able to go along.  At first he was saying he didn't think he could do that, that maybe he just wasn't capable of it.  As long as I kept up with a loving response that I understood this was hard for him, I hoped he would make the choice to work on himself and I loved him.  Hard to do when someone is telling you maybe we should just divorce.  Therapists told me to just ignore that divorce talk and restate my truth in a loving way.  Of course it helped that he was in his own therapy.

MaybeSo, your posts are excellent.

Everyone has been so informative.

Would you say you got there because your work on your own self-care and processing your own grief and hard emotions?

Was there another component, present at that time, to support the trust you felt that you could go along?


Thank you MissyM!

Absolutely!  I highly recommend EMDR, therapy and 12 step for codependency (doesn't seem to matter which one as long as it is a healthy group).


Not sure what you mean by that?  From my dBPDH?  I believe I began to trust myself and my HP, I truly began to believe my life would turn out ok no matter what happened.  I wanted peace and happiness for my dBPDh, also.  He was suffering and it is hard to watch that with someone you love.  I just wasn't willing to sacrifice myself and my boundaries to make him happy.  I realized that happiness for him meant recovery of his own.

Yes. I mean did he stop the hurtful behavior before you felt safe enough, or was it something that was between you and your HP simply?

Actually my healing came first.  It wasn't and am not fully "healed" but so much better than before.  My CSAT (who works with spouses of SAs) said that the way this happened was not the common way but was probably the only way in my situation because of my husband's BPD on top of SA.  She said it is usually that the SA gets into a good recovery and the spouse follows along.  It sometimes happens in reverse, like in my life, where the spouse gets recovery first.  I know of a few people that have had it happen the way it happened for me.  Now we are focusing on couple's recovery.

It's coherent with the advice on this board, that the 'healthier partner' takes the lead. Very courageous.

I see that you have undertaken couples therapy before he has stopped seeing other women (in other thread).  Would you say it has to do with the length of the relationship?

Sometimes I feel confident to 'take the lead', and sometimes, I feel like I should let my SO take a step further before I confirm our r/s some more. I told her that I would go to couple's counseling with her if she succeeds in stopping the hurtful behavior.

It's a bit of a wild card for me, and as I take the time for reflexion, I see that I do have a lot of interest to pursue the relationship, yet I have to see how we are when we are plain two... At ground base.   We are still in the dating stage, and this has slowed it down it seems. It has been confusing. Now I slowly get to put some of the pieces together. This board is a good place...  

Yes, this gets very confusing about "taking the lead".  To be clear, my dBPDh was lying that he was still contacting other women.  It came out after a couple of weeks and he was working with his own CSAT again, who recommended a new disclosure.  (sorry these are all SA recovery terms)  Then we were able to put it behind us.  I did an impact letter and he did an emotional restitution letter (the words were good but his emotions were lacking).  Then I felt we were ready to start really deep, attachment work for couples.  I definitely took the lead on that and am so thankful I listened to my intuition and went with it.  That has been a real blessing for me in recovery, getting back in touch with my intuition.

@MissyM   It makes a whole lot of sense. BTW, I'm familiar with a lot of the SA recovery terms, all good with that.    :)

Yes to being back with your intuition!  |iiii

I feel so much for this one...

I can relate about the words. My partner is very good with words. She can even improvise amazing poems. But the follow through is typical BPD. In a small scale, I did something similar to you, regarding 'the next step'.

I used some of the communication tools I learned here for doing it, and it went much better than I expected. At least for the moment.

I must admit that I felt like a maverick doing that. It looks like this was a welcome idea, because since that conversation, things have gradually calmed down to a nice peacefulness.

But I must watch for my own wishful thinking though.

@MaybeSo, thank you for your comments. Very much insight and very true in my SO's case. Part of his diagnose is early childhood attachment problem. His psychologist says something went horribly wrong already when he an infant child; the guess is that his mom had a severe depression and his father was prone to uncontrolled aggression and physical discipline that imo was basically violent beatings. He learnt early not to trust anyone, how to be lonely. Reading your explanation on attachment... .Him and his childhood with severe anxieties and deprression in pre-school age, dissociating... .The love attachement pictured him exactly :'-(. And like your husband, my SO genuinly means well and doesn't understand why the girls he is helping get all upset and start to expect stuff like moving together, or whatever. He is aware that there is a pattern, and that the women end up extremely hurt but doesn't quite get how that happens and isn't too willing to stop.

Someone asked me if I'm okey with my SO having emotional connections outside our r/s. I'm not. I struggle with it. Most of the time (in this relationship) he has had someone on the side, someone with an emotional connection (that has varied), sometimes also physical. At the beginning there was several actually, but they slowly dwindled and he began to see that his helping was also ruining them. For about a year he only had one same ex, but she went NC last fall – couldn't bare the LDR love and me sharing most of his timeanymore. Changed the equation I guess? For a while he did manage without anyone else to attend to.

I've been looking at things closely and also looking at the mirror.

Reallized I should dedicate time in taking better care of me. Years of studying, getting married and having kids and divorcing etc has meant I've lost connection to most of my friends. I need to do some work to re-connect with friends, and even try to find new friends. I'm a bit too alone which makes me more vulnarable. I'm not a very tough person as it is, I'm quite emotional actually... .Btu I guess what I'm going trhough with him probably hurts most people anyway.

I've talked with my SO and tried to explain to him gently that his need for his absolute freedom, without any strings, is simply too much for me to bear. I think what is most difficult for me is that when I wake up, for a new day, I have no idea what is my value or place in his life is. For some time is all pull, i'm the best thing that ever happened to him, someone who loves so much and the next thing I know he wants to move on.

I know this was easier when we weren't living together; him having this girlies on the side bothered me yes (what he was doing to them bothered A LOT, they all though they were the only ones), but I wasn't face to face with what goes one every day. I wasn't face to face with the changing place and value, either. The ups and the downs were there, but not in-my-face.

He said he is not sure if he needs an absolute freedom, regardless of the price, but says he honestly doesn't know what he wants. Compromizes are something he doesn't to. Said he cannot offer me (or anyone else I guess) a stable relationship (which is something I know and live with).

Freedom to go and wander and explore life and new people is something he loves.

I'm afraid this is something we can't work through. He talked about his issues, the feelings etc. He seems reluctant in modifying his behaviour – i know it's difficult, with his background and disorders, but not impossible. It's about will I guess. Discussed taking our r/s  down to a level we both deal with. Which I think would be being friends who meet maybe once or twice a year and occasionally write a bit.  Told him that i'm not dumping him right now, but doubt I'll manage more than a month or two. .

I must say this has been so far the weirdest and emotionally challenging r/s I have had. And the most difficult love i've ever known. I have had many happy moments with him, I don't regret being with him this far... But I do pray to all gods I know to keep me safe from more BPD's for the rest of my life.

missy m, this has been the weirdest relationship of my life, too. we currently do not live together and I'm in more friend mode with him these days.

p & c, I agree that amends are an important part of healing. I can't really imagine maintaining contact with a person who behaves in a hurtful manner and never feels remorse or makes amends. my partner feels deep shame at times and does make amends.

but, he's an addict. the road to recovery is almost never a straight line. People slip into old patterns, people relapse. so even with sincere and heart filled amends, it's still complicated. but, it does my heart good to know he has clear moments. of remorse and accountability. with the mood dysregulation and splitting, so it's not permanent, but I know he is sincere when he is in a remorseful place. still have to take care of myself and accept the reality of his limitations. his ability to take ownership got better when I got better at ownership, too.

if he was never vulnerable or remorseful... .and just blamed everything on me all the time , is be liking reacting in kind and blaming him... .yes, that would be toxic. that would require some serious distance IMHO. perhaps permanent nc would be the best bet for me if that were the case.

Yes, that makes sense to me.  One of the main things to look for is some consistency.  If 95% of the time I am getting remorse and vulnerability and 5% I am getting some slips in behavior that seems normal but full on relapse is something different.  Fortunately, my dBPDh has an incredible sponsor and is really working his program.  I have actually switched my sponsor to an alanon sponsor who seems to really get personal accountability for me, too.  All steps in the right direction.

Yes, I am grateful for this thread. It makes sense to my situation as well. I see better now. My SO did feel vulnerable and remorseful many times. She also did slip many times. I had a process in mind, but there has been many detours. That's difficult to not get confused.

Like MaybeSo and MissyM point out, I am looking into the pattern and recently decided to request a 30 days period of NC for my own reasons. The slips were too many. Her T welcomed this and my SO accepted.

The idea was for both of us to work on our own issues. To detach a bit so we can de-emmesh. She is in treatment center right now. So it was a good time to have some kind of therapeutic separation. Specifically for me, I needed to get off that rollercoaster and let myself have my own emotions. Take that time to let go, let it all out, be me. And to sort out what I will accept and what I will not forward on.

This has been a good thing so far, even though it is very difficult for me and for her to do (the separation). I felt it was either do that, or end it all. I've experienced a lot of fears, anxiety, grief, anger. I see it's normal.

Now I can see how the SA and the BPD intersect. Mainly it's for my own understanding, because for her she says it's the same thing. In her words, her SA is a manifestation of her deep insecurities. Same core issues.

MissyM, I really feel for you. Your guy sounds very very much like my ex (more so than most stories I've seen here). We had a great r/s according to us both. But he wanted to be free to explore other people. And I just can't be that vulnerable with someone who, like you say, is constantly changing his mind about what and who I even am to him. I too found I could not wake up every day with that question.

MaybeSo, thanks for outlining the difference btwn our response when there are amends and remorse, though recovery is rocky and non linear; and situations (like mine) where there is zero insight and about 98% projection that the shifts are all completely fine, and either inexplicable or somehow our fault.

Hard stuff.

MaybeSo, I totally agree to what you are saying. I feel inclined to tell my SO that for the relationship to go on, I will need to have my own small periods of NC. For her to accept that, as a part of my needs in the relationship.

I also had a boundary of NC right after a slip. For me it was too much and I would feel too much anger, reject her. 

And the language she used to tell me when she is feeling 'challenged' got very important with me. I wanted the truth, but not too many details. Because of the splitting, she would use a very different language when she would feel like she might be acting out. It always took me by surprise, how she could just tell me those things, 'knowing' (in my non's experiential) that it hurted me to hear her saying those things ( I had told her many times, and she had been remorseful many times already).

And the point of her having an active support network, outside of the T office, is also something I needed for me to feel safe in the relationship.

Those are examples of boundaries I set as a result of my own work as a partner of SA (POSA). The approach has given me valuable tools, but when I got to the BPD part, it got confusing for me.

Recently she told me she did not feel safe with me, because she said that I was avoidant. Of course I feel avoidant because she had just betrayed me. I also have too much anger with the cumulative effects of the one day betrayal/the other day remorse and vulnerability. This causes me a lot of grief and this time off helps with that. Now she knows that I know that the splitting is a part of her condition.

If we are moving forward with the confirmation of the relationship, we will have to sort this one out. Thank you for the concepts you shared. I can see myself not returning her love the way she desires, and her feeling unwanted because of that. That makes sense. I can 'validate her', I certainly can include this dimension, when it's not appropriate for me to return the feelings she has on the spot.

But I very much want to look into this now, how my PTSD symptoms affect me, than her in this way. 

I welcome your comments.

   

Hi Haye   How are things going with you today?  I apologize for butting into your thread, as you've mentioned that your relationship didn't have the same quality as mine initially.

I want to quickly respond to braveSun's question:


Yes, I started working on my issues with a lot of trial and error.  I've not breathed a word about my suspicions to my partner.  He knows I find psychology fascinating, he thinks it's a lot of mumbo-jumbo, yet is highly intelligent and is super aware of his moods, other's moods and so on... .

I don't approach him in psych-terms.  I own my issues in layman-terms/actions, try to face them head on and by doing that he has owned many of his.  He'll still distance himself a little here and there, but not to the point of boundary-breaking stuff and not for more than a day or 2, while always staying in some sort of contact.  I can live with this.  He has a demanding job and needs time to himself.  I have a demanding job and need time to myself, too.  

In the beginning, I would blame him for taking/needing space.  It didn't occur to me to ask myself why I need my own space when I do, or to ask him if sometimes he needs a little space?  I immediately jumped to the worst possible conclusion that the reason he didn't want to see me must be because he's seeing someone else!  And then I'd be all standoffish, then freakout about that, thinking that maybe he thinks I don't like him now, so then I would cling and want to clear the air.  Just so much unnecessary drama lol He'd do stuff like that, too, so I'm not giving him a total pass, it's just that the only part of our relationship that I have any semblance of control over is my own.  So I try really hard to own what is mine.

And MaybeSo, you rock!

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