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Out of self preservation (and not necessarily knowing what I was doing), several years ago I started detaching emotionally from my uBPDh.  While I do think it was good for me to lose some of my codependent tendencies, I wonder sometimes if I have taken it too far to allow us to be in a truly mutual relationship.  From what he says and how he acts, I know he's dying for me to be vulnerable and emotional with him but I just don't think it's safe yet as he's just beginning the path of getting professional help.  I asked my counselor about it last night and she confirms from what I've said that I'm probably NOT emotionally safe yet and that it's ok.  But I wonder if it's possible to go too  far in the detaching process and not be able to make a relationship work anymore.

Thanks for bringing this up, Michelle27.

My SO's BP traits and my own codependent traits are things that I have been paying close attention to in just the past few months, but I had a similar process of emotionally detaching—out of self preservation (and not necessarily knowing what I was doing)—several years ago when my uBPso crossed way over the line and I found myself in a very unsafe situation.

I've not been vulnerable in the same ways with him since then, and our intimacy (physical and emotional) has suffered.

I don't know the answer to your question. I know that I'm not comfortable being vulnerable with him, but I'm hopeful that I will eventually cultivate enough inner strength and self-worthiness to feel safe softening much more someday.

Looking forward to seeing what others have to say.

I am in exactly the same situation with my BPDw.  She was diagnosed to me, but the T did not want to tell her.  She still does not know. 

Accordingly, while she has done a bit better with her emotions, it only seems to last as long as we don't talk about anything of substance.  Otherwise it all falls apart.  I try and test her periodically for safety, but she is still not capable of listening to me share anything yet.  Anything of substance brings a huge emotional response from her that turns destructive quickly.

The odd part for us is that she has no problem with sex.  She desires it more than me, but does not seem to need any relationship intimacy to base it on.  It feels very empty to me, but it keeps her regulated so I guess it works for both of us in an odd way.

The hard part seems to be balancing Radical Acceptance with Hope.  Radical Acceptance seems to tell me that there are limits and I need to lower my expectations.  Given that my BPDw is not in any real treatment it kills my hope for any more than we have right now.  It is kind of discouraging to think of sitting in the same place we are right now for the next ten years. 

The "not being able to talk about anything of substance" is what makes me wonder if I've taken detaching too far.  What kind of relationship doesn't allow for both parties to talk about what matters to them?  I sometimes feel like a roommate he wants to have sex with, not a partner. Grr. 

I've had hope many times and had it deflated due to him lying about getting help and manipulating/sabotaging the process when it's been offered to him (yes, he admits that he did this many times).  I don't even know if I have it in me to be hopeful anymore when it comes to him getting help.  And then to add insult to injury, knowing how close I was to leaving, he flipped a switch and is now "love-bombing" me and I can't even enjoy that because I don't believe it's real! 

I know there have been a few examples on this forum in the past (e.g. Steph in success stories), where the pwBPD was getting treatment and could recognize on some level when they were dysregulating.  This seemed to allow for intimacy building during the good times, then just riding out the rough times. 

Ironically it is often the most low functioning pwBPD who can obtain this because they know something is wrong and when they aren't low they are more willing to work toward intimacy.  Higher functioners or those who aren't really taking therapy seriously would seem less likely candidates for some level of real intimacy.

I would love to hear more successful stayers chime in on this. 

Interesting perspective.  I will have to ponder this. It makes perfect sense.

Hey Michelle:

I'm really, really sorry you find yourself in the position that you're in and it is both hurtful, lonely and somewhat frightening. I've seen some good comments and understandings here. We all have different experiences and I'll share mine a bit with you.

"I would love to hear more successful stayers chime in on this" Well I"m actually one of those people here.

I was where you were five years ago, four years into our marriage. My wife was diagnosed three years ago with BPD.

It was my experience back then that I had to for the same reasons, self-protection and a real lack of understanding how to understand her actions and how mine played into it to make it worse. They say sometimes you have to start making it worse before you can start making it better and that was my experience.

For me it was a really bad path that led to a lot of problems by not meeting her needs for closeness, intimacy which is a relationship check for her, and particularly not meeting her needs of reassurance that she's loved and stable in her relationship. BPD needs are real and honestly they are so intense to them that ignoring or overlooking them may not take you in a better direction but a worse.

We have choices to stay or to go, or at least we should all have a clear understanding of those options. Choosing to stay opens the real possibility to be choosing to stay and make positive changes in your relationship and yes that takes a lot of learning, a lot of understanding: like Aurylian said learning Radical Acceptance of a different point of view and having assurance that the things your partner feels at any given time is REAL to them and not manufactured for attention or manipulation. Whatever the action there will be something so real to their inner meanings. There is a desperate need that wants to be met regardless of how they present that. A fear, an insecurity an emptiness or desperate pain that needs to be addressed. Knowing what it is and what may have triggered that need is not always easy.

Fact is he's coming to you for that need. You don't trust that relationship and I'm sure he probably feels the same way. The real question is how do you build that trust. Trust is the real catalyst to change and bringing about a relationship that can work. It is difficult Michelle but are you where you want to be and stay?

There are other ways forward through learning, building and it really takes both courage and commitment. It takes a vision of what you want and heading down a path to get there. Not an easy path and there will be pot holes and mud puddles that you'll have to wade through along the way but it's really, really possible to turn it around and change your path for a better one. It really depends on what you want and what your willing to put into it after all the past hurts - whether you have the ability to put the past in the past to clear a way for a better future and if that's what you want to dedicate yourself to.

It can be done in some cases sweetheart. Is there a choice to stay in the place you are now when you're scared and unhappy and in indecision? It's about commitment to yourself and what's good for you.

Honestly sweetie you can't change him or force him to anything but you can change yourself and in doing so change the entire dynamically positive that surrounds you. It really is possible. Can you see it being possible for you?




 

Hi Michelle,


What is your idea of a truly mutual relationship? Does it take into account his (possibly reduced) BPD related tendencies?


Yup, don't do anything you are not comfortable with. But also keep in mind that by definition you can't be vulnerable without taking risks.


I think this is always a risk when moving from an enmeshed relationship to a healthier one. Let's not forget longer BPD relationships are really quite stable compared with normal relationships.

Validation is a relationship building and healing tool. I see that you have posted about validation in the past but then we can't do enough here and we can't do it well enough. Check out the different kinds of validation and think about how you can push your boundaries and take some risk.

Are you doing openly self validation e.g. by verbally expressing how exactly you feel? It can give the other some intelligence into our inner life and is of limited risk. If he is very sensitive you may have to stick to the SET (T=your emotion) pattern but ultimately you want to get to a place where you can do this most of the time without much thought. These do not have to be special feelings in areas where you are very vulnerable you could start with simple things like hot, cold, hunger and thirsty etc... In order for him to validate you he needs to understand you.

As you are not feeling totally safe - have you worked on boundaries in more than a black and white sense? A natural pattern when faced with abuse and not being good with boundaries is to establish a first and solid boundary around yourself like "I won't be yelled at" etc... Can you think of your boundary not as a circle but a set of circles that are staggered? Can you think of what you share in sets of easy, risky and impossible to share stuff and place them in the circles? And can you think about the line in terms of line+grey area where an occasional small misstep is managed by you through assertiveness?

Have you truly thought about the worst case? I mean you share something and he uses it to hurt you? Would be nothing really new I guess. So the worst case is he uses another new thing to hurt you. A new tool in his toolbox. Won't increase the frequency of him opening the box. There may be already quite some potent, even more potent tools in his box. So what exactly is the risk?

Again, don't do anything you are to some degree ok with. Possibly your T can help you planning some smaller steps to open up. In some sense you have torn down a unhealthy relationship and have now to rebuild it. This takes time and patience, especially when he is not through therapy yet.

Wow.  Stalwart and AnOught, both very deep and insightful replies.  Thank you so much for the time and thought you both put into this.

You are right, anOught, tearing down the unhealthy relationship is exactly what it feels like I'm doing.  I suppose I haven't given enough thought to the rebuilding stage beyond my own hopes that I can heal from the damage caused by years of abuse, and learning to believe that he really DOESN'T want to hurt me.  I keep hanging onto the idea that he can't possibly truly love me if he could do and say the things he's done. 

I've done a lot of work on what I won't tolerate anymore and that I actually have a choice in whether or not to be affected by his emotions.  At the same time, I'm terrified of being a victim again and I think that's why I don't want to open myself up.  The last handful of dysregulations have mostly been whenever I have expressed an emotion or talked about my feelings.  I think it's natural to feel like it would be better to not express an emotion or talk about my feelings at all which is obviously making me feel even less connected to him.  He's actually asked me to open myself up more and while I understand why, I haven't even come close to allowing myself to go that far.  Maybe I do need to take a risk and see what happens.

Stalwart, I think the idea of solidifying exactly what I want in a relationship beyond the feeling of wanting a "normal" one as opposed to what I have is what I need to do.  I have many books on healthy marriages/relationships that I've been reading and so much of what I read often has me shaking my head thinking that he's just not capable of this or that, based on past behavior.  That feeling of trust has been stomped on big time on both of our sides (I only discovered his year long affair with a friend of mine that happened 4.5 years ago a few months ago) so we have a long way to go.  I keep asking myself why I am staying when it's been so painful for so long, and apart from the caretaker role I got stuck in for years and I keep coming to the conclusion that there must be some love still there.  In talking with a friend the other day, I talked about my knowledge that if we CAN get through this and rebuild the relationship, I imagine that it can be stronger than I ever thought possible because of having gone through what we have. 

I am continuing to work on me, knowing I can't do anything about his side of things.  I now know that I have to keep working on me, that it's a lifetime process not something with a beginning and end.  I'm excited about that... .becoming the best me I can.

Thank you both again.

Michelle, Michelle, Michelle:

I am so sorry about the affair. I suspected that. That's actually why I was saying it can be dangerous to disconnect.

Honestly, I hate going back there and I know you can understand that. There is actually a tear running down my cheek as I type this out. I've gone so far away from all of that, that it's difficult to go backward.

My wife also had a one and half year affair with a coworker. It was what brought her down to the bottom of the barrel. It's also what alerted me to exactly what her problem was and her eventual diagnosis because of her reactions being so contrary to what they should have been given the situation. I didn't know it had happened but once it ended they went at each other until she felt forced to leave her job. It wasn't pretty. I only found out when the police came to arrest her the first time for harassment. She sent so many nasty emails I can't even begin to describe it or want to. That's when I found out. It was the second arrest, spending four days in jail with the arm and leg shackles being escorted into the courtroom that really broke her dysregulation and allowed her to come to terms with the repercussions of her actions. Her entire family and friends immediately deserted her for what she'd done. She was really in a desperate place. So was I.

I so know the pain sweetheart, the betrayal, the hurt and where it all takes you. It's a terrible place to live in your thoughts and it's all so devastating. I know it all too well.

I can only tell you what I did. Like you I knew well what the boundaries were in the future, laid them out clearly and knew I had the choice to leave if that's what I decided to do. It's not.

It comes to a point if you decide to go forward that you have to pick a day and say this is the day I start my new life and leave the old one behind me. No regrets, no holding on to the resentment, no allowing the past to negatively affect you and turn the page to a clean slate. That's what I had to mentally do. Slam the door on the past. It's not as easy to do as it is to script out here and I'm sure you know that.

It can be done though sweetie. Understanding all his reasons helps but there is no way that anyone can condone the actions. They're two different things entirely. Others without this disorder complicating it have done it sweetie, you can to if you chose to.

The past can only hurt you, and believe me it probably really hurts him too. Although most don't really show or talk about the guilt or remorse I know well they live in it almost everyday.

You stayed, and he knows that. Turning it around to something positive in the future will help to cement in his psyche that you are THE stayer and open up the path again to trust. I know it's so difficult and it's frightening. I also have been exposed to professionals not agreeing with my choices and having to work it through with my own children that are older for them to understand my choices. They ended up being really supportive but it was difficult for them as well. Two girls and they were both upset.

It really is about you choose and knowing it is entirely your choice and striking that vision of what you want and dedicating yourself to achieving that vision. It's possible when you learn enough about him to totally understand his thinking and reactions. Another real challenge to get it all right.

Bottom line is sweetheart you do deserve better than your past and by your own choices and determination you can have that. I know I've grown so much through the experience for that reason alone it's been a positive experience and the what it comes down to is knowing in your own heart that you really did everything humanly possible to make it work and if it doesn't know that for certain it is time to go because you do deserve better.

I hope you can find your way past the pain. It is a difficult path, but ultimately you have to in one way or another move past it. It's such a toxic place to be in.

I do feel for your situation and I really, really hope you find the strength to make the right decisions for you and move toward a better tomorrow. 

Thank you once again.  It's actually the anger and resentment that brought me to counseling when I found out.  I felt like I needed to immediately make a decision on whether to stay or go and my thinking was so muddled by the lowest self esteem in my life.  The irony is that I knew with all of my being that he had had at least one affair and had already come to terms with that.  I knew how he would rationalize it (same way he would rationalize how horrible he treated me and my daughter from my first marriage) and how messed up his thinking was.  Knowing that was part of why I began disconnecting when I did.  And yet, I wasn't nearly as upset as when I found out the details... .it was with an acquaintance/friend of mine and it happened precisely during the time I was scrambling to get us help (3 different marriage counselors, begging him to see an individual counselor, signing us up for a couple's communication course, talking to our doctor about it and talking to his friends and family... all of which were totally sabotaged and derailed by him, which he admits).  Upon finding out, I confronted the woman and went onto discover that during that time, when he was so horrible to me, he made her feel so good about herself that she credits him for giving her the strength to end an abusive relationship, and that she believed he was going to leave me for her. 

I had spent the last 3 years turning my attention to taking care of myself for the first time in my life and had lost an enormous amount of weight (140 lbs), changed my attitudes about exercise and gained a whole bunch of confidence in myself and what I was capable of in addition to a new circle of friends in the process.  But that newfound strength wasn't enough for me to handle what I learned a few months ago and I lost it.  Been in counseling since then and I learned that my "strength" was really from hanging onto resentments and anger and was obviously just surface deep.  I've been working on that since then and came a long way.  I also learned in counseling that I didn't need to make a decision about my marriage right now but have decided to give it one more shot for a period of a year with some boundaries in place I never had before.  He is trying too... .for the first time, listening to me in better ways, pursuing psychiatric care, taking CBT classe and requesting intake into our local mental health organization in hopes of getting DBT.  And yet, I still feel like I'm holding back because I don't truly believe he's doing those things for himself, but to keep me because I've made it clear we can't move forward unless we both work on our individual issues.  He's faked it before, walked through steps and then sabotaged it and yes, he admits that.  He also admits that he wouldn't do any of those things if I left him which is a lot of pressure on me.

During the period he had the affair, I was nowhere near disconnected.  I was in fact enmeshed and co-dependent.  So my disconnection was not his reason for doing it.  In fact, my disconnection happened when I went to counseling begging for a way to help my husband and the therapist took repeated sessions to convince me that it wasn't my job to help him, but I needed to take care of me.  I seriously had to be talked into looking after myself.  And, to be honest, I have to admit to my own affair last year when I hit my limit on not having my own needs met.  It was short lived and my husband knows about it. I know on some level that if we can get through this, we can be stronger than ever, but I'm so scared to open myself up again only to be hurt.  We have talked about this and he knows I need time but I can see it's frustrating him. 

I'm too detached right now, and I think it's harder on me than it is on her. I have to hide it.

When I first started becoming significantly detached, she would freak out because she thought I was mad at her. Now there are times when I'm distant and she seems to snap out of it. I'm still trying to figure out why. 

I could be that I'm coming across as more strong-willed, or focused, or who knows what. There was a point where she thought it was better that we split up. The last time she brought it up, I had gotten so detached, I figured there wasn't much to lose. I straight-up told her that I wanted a firm answer by the end of the day so I could get on with my life. Was that the best reaction? No. But she hasn't talked about it again.

You mentioned the roommate concept. I threw that out in therapy once. I don't know if it did any good, but it definitely didn't hurt.

As for her love-bombing, I know it's the BPD talking. It takes some of the fun out of the intimacy. There are just too many dry spells and so many excuses. There's definitely some self-preservation going on.

When there is a big distance then it is much harder for her to project emotions on you and then getting validation through seeing you suffer. That leaves the other option i.e. dealing herself with difficult emotions which she is less used to and only falls back on when she really has to.

This is why boundaries are so important. This is also why getting boundaries right is so critical. A naive approach to boundaries is distance - but that stops other healthy stuff too. This is ok for a temporary emergency measure. The key to proper boundaries is to break the sense of control and not simply distance.

A challenge with learning new behavioral habits is that there is often some awkwardness, artificial, conscious or unconscious effort involved. Not saying you should not have standards but "faking" is not so different from "trying and failing". Some trying and failing moved you in a different direction and to the point where you plot a new and even better course. Some trying and failing moves very little.

anOught brought up a really great point here and this was one of my very personal challenges moving forward when I decided to 'start over'.

"A challenge with learning new behavioral habits is that there is often some awkwardness, artificial, conscious or unconscious effort involved."

I can only speak to my own experiences and path. Sweeping the past (when there is so much of it) under the carpet puts it out of eyesight but only leaves a huge pile in the middle of the floor that is far too easy to trip over.

Sincerity is a huge challenge when there are lingering doubts. For some people insincerity is a difficult path to maneuver because 'it just doesn't sit well with who you are.' In my case I follow the latter. For me it came down to really having to (not justify the past - infidelity really isn't condonable to me) but understand the past and in some way rationalize it in your mind to compartmentalize it away.

I found so many times I was 'practicing' responses and interactions trying to move forward in a more closely knit relationship. It is difficult, but practice makes perfect. Having the constant wherewithal to use positives when negatives can so easily be a retort, was paramount to changing the dynamics around.

Three years later a constant is hearing "You always know the exact right things to say." That's where practice makes perfect. To recognize the need in another and meet it in a positive, validating and empowering way so they feel listened to, heard and understood takes time and practice. Bottom line really is that probably all of us hope for that in our lives. It's a necessity in hers, more so than mine. I don't struggle with the feelings of low self-esteem, the emotional bombardment of debilitating remorse or the constant and necessary search 'for self' that she does.

Trust is a really difficult thing to offer when it's been misused. "Once bitten, twice shy" Bringing back trust into the relationship I found to be the vital key to the first door that had to be unlocked to start the journey. I can honestly say I don't know which was more difficult to accomplish, trusting myself that I was making the right decisions, or offering her a clean slate on trust again. The latter is more easily accomplished I think. Setting boundaries, not in a way of threatened alternatives, but in a way of closely communicated goals of personal self-improvement went a long way.

Finding a place of both understanding the want and committing to it was empowering. I found taking the steps forward somewhat frightening with very little support or understanding from others (professionals, or both mine and her family members) as to why I would. They did come on board later though when they saw signs of hope and progress; and that was wonderful to have their support. 

None of it is easy, they are huge life decisions but the fact remains that committing to going forward (if you're going to stay) can't be going forward in a stagnated relationship that's constantly unhealthy. For me that can only lead to failure and breakdown in a life that's far too short to waste.

To make change someone has to take hold of the sail and change the direction. In my case who better than me if I've chosen to take on the challenge for us? I don't suffer from a mental affliction that can negatively affect that course like she does.

Sorry for hijacking your thread, Michelle. My only defense is that it's on-topic.


My W used to exhibit more symptoms related to her Major Depressive Disorder. That's when she kept talking about killing herself. Despite BPD causing more of a strain on our relationship, at least I can stop worrying about her suicidal ideations while I work on getting my act together.

I have posted on this topic.  Some really good info.  Is in this thread.

Just an observation, part of the definition of codependency is that the codependent person is more concerned about the relationship than the other person.  Sometimes the codependent person is more concerned about the relationship than about their own self. 

We are so knowledgeable about the workings of r/s.  We have all read so much, tried so hard, been so supportive.

Even though it is lonely to be detached, taking care of ourselves is a necessity.  We cannot expect our s/o to take care of us. 

The issue that Michelle27 is struggling with, and I am also struggling with, is building healthy interdependency.  The balance between independence and dependence in a relationship.

Michelle27, congratulations on all of your progress.  Keep taking good care of yourself.  Enjoy your life!

Is it possible to end/destroy a relationship by being too detached? I think it is possible, but I don't think that is what you are describing.

Your assessment that deep emotional vulnerability and intimacy with your husband isn't safe strikes me as sound, given your husband's current state.

If the relationship fails due to the lack of emotional connection, which it might, I would NOT say your detachment is the cause. I would say that his limited emotional capacity and maturity is the cause.

If he continues to heal and grow, and you continue to put effort into your marriage, you will eventually reach a point of testing out more vulnerability with him. Trust your own judgement, and advice from your therapist that you will know when to start on it. Try to start small instead of flipping a switch and being fully open with him instantly, if you can when that time comes.

I'll chime in with my story which has its big successes twisted in with other things. My wife was always much higher functioning than what seems typically posted here. We got married over 20 years ago. Early on we had very rare fights at times when she was depressed and I saw what I later realized were hints of BPDish behavior. She did have a messed up FOO, and had already done some real work on herself before I met her.

About 10 years ago, we both retired early, started spending all our time together, and stresses built. Her abusive behavior really started to build... .and by four or five years ago I would say she was behaving in a way that qualified her as diagnosable with BPD. I was accepting a lot of abuse, and was teetering on the edge of actually believing the things she was accusing me of doing.

I started fighting back, found a few supportive friends... .and later found these forums and found much more effective techniques (mostly boundary enforcement). Pretty soon, I wasn't being abused, even though my wife kept trying to.

At one point, she realized on her own that she was the one behaving abusively, not me. This was HUGE, and I know few here on these boards have had that happen.

We were both working on ourselves over the years. Did some MC which helped. Did some mindfulness meditation. Did some other personal growth workshops. We both learned some tools. After one of those she finished a couple-year-long persona breakthrough, and stopped trying to behave abusively toward me. I was amazed, and impressed, and thought everything was OK. I declared her (undiagnosed) BPD to be cured at that point.

A year and a half ago, she was deeply traumatized by a death very close to her. Slipped into depression and anxiety... .darker than I'd ever seen her in before... .and STILL didn't resume abusive behavior. Six months ago she cheated on me. Long complicated story (chronicled on the Staying Board)

The last I spoke to her about our marriage, she had found some amazing clarity. She was honestly able to say 'It isn't you, it is me.' about ending it. That she doesn't believe she can deal with her own stuff while in a r/s with me, she's afraid she would sacrifice herself for me... .until she couldn't... .then explode out again, hurting us both.

I've gone through the most amazing personal growth in the last six months. Part of what she was able to do at the end was because I managed to disengage and leave her to find her own feelings without trying to control/influence them. Her honest assessment that she can't make our marriage work feels like something I *EARNED* with my growth, if that makes any sense. I was able to be good and clear enough that she could see that I wasn't in any way (currently) to blame for what she was feeling.

I feel like I'm ready to blossom into a new and better part of my life... .and I hope she does too, and I hope that someday we can be close enough to share that excitement with each other again, even though our futures are not together like our past was.

There is such a goldmine of information in this thread.  I am going to have to save it for future rereads.

I don't have it in me to give all the details but after a huge dysregulation last night in which he disrespected the one boundary I put in place, I had no choice but to follow through with the consequences that he knew would happen and he is staying at a friend's house.  For a week for now and then we'll reevaluate. 

I have bounced all over on this subject during my journey. I detached for self preservation and peace and quite. As i heal myself, I need less self preservation, my own personal strength and recovery means that the fear of conflict and eggshells lessens. Hence i am not as afraid of probing those deeper and potentially triggering situations.

Like you I found those superficial "safe' discussions completely dull and without effort. With lack of effort and challenge comes lack of respect as there is nothing to respect but smoke and mirrors. You need to be strong enough in yourself to go back into the smoke and see if there is any fire. You will not feel alive yourself if you don't, the grass will then start to look greener and your enthusiasm for the RS will fade.

Are you strong enough yet to deal with the heat of facing the fire? Don't rush in before you are ready, but it needs to be on your to do list if you want the RS to succeed.

Good to see that you are willing to follow through on boundaries. each time you stand by one you will feel stronger, which reduces fear of conflict. Fear of conflict leaves too many stones unturned.

What we are about here is not risk elimination but rather risk management.

Michelle27,

Thanks for starting this thread.  Interesting read.

One thing I would like to challenge you on... .to think deeper on.

How would it change the way that you approached the r/s if you believed it was real?

Why don't you think it's real... ?

I'm one of those that has torn town an unhealthy r/s... .and is building something back in its place.

I've had to lead the way and be open an vulnerable... .and it has cost me several times... .but it has also paid off several times.

Looking forward to chatting more with you to help you figure out when it might be appropriate to take some more risks...

FF

Thanks, Formflier.

I don't believe it's real because it's what I saw at the beginning of the relationship and when he crashed upon getting the news of his son's horrible abuse 9 years ago, it was as if a switch was flipped and the rages on a regular basis began.  I now believe that the person I saw when we met and in the good years was him becoming what it was obvious I needed then after coming out of an abusive (mostly physically abusive) marriage.  From what I've read about pwBPD that's why the beginning of a relationship is so amazing... .they become exactly what the other person needs due to their own lack of identity.  If I believe that he meant that, then I also think I have to believe that he's the person I've seen for the last 9 years.  He can't be both. When he realized he was very close to losing me last year, he "flipped the switch" again and started doing things he hadn't done in 9 years... .helping around the house, taking me for dinner once in awhile, etc...   He has also dropped all of his former interests in favor of suddenly enjoying things that I have had interests in for years (and he did not).  It feels like he's trying to become me in order to make me emotionally close again.  I am dealing with PTSD like symptoms when I see him begin to ramp up towards a rage, and he knows this.  When he's not dysregulated, he expresses how he knows he's made me feel emotionally unsafe in my own home and is making it a priority.  I set a boundary after years of carrying around an overnight bag in my car and dozens of times having to flee the house when he raged.  He has been telling me for months that when he dysregulates, he will leave.  We had plans and backup plans in place for this, and yet, when it's happened about once a month since then, he hasn't followed through.  I totally know that he is in the very early stages of getting help (which he does seem to want) and I can't expect the dysregulations to stop just because I want them to, but I can set a boundary that for my own healing, they can't happen in my presence.  He has agreed to leave when asked but on Saturday, he refused to so I did.  The next day, I asked him to pack a bag and leave for a week for now, and he did.  Over many years, lied about wanting help (yes, he's admitted this) and totally sabotaged it when it was offered (and yes, he admits this too).  He has confessed to being emotionally abusive to my daughter from my first marriage because after his son's (from his first marriage) disclosure of sexual abuse that caused him to crash 9 years ago, in his own words, "my son was damaged and I wanted to even it up with your daughter".  During the year that he was telling me he wanted help and having me set up various appointments with marriage counselors (which he now says he deliberately sabotaged 3 different counselors and a couple's communication course that I signed us p for) he was carrying on a year long affair with a "friend" of mine.  I have a huge capacity for compassion and forgiveness, and I know we could get past this if while he was working on his own issues I could depend on my home being emotionally safe by him leaving when he rages. 

So, to answer your question, if I did believe it was real, that he really did have the feelings he did at the beginning of the relationship and now (rather than what he showed me for 9 years), I would feel more ability to be open and vulnerable.  But almost every time I try, no matter how well I'm using the tools and validation, it triggers him into a rage.  And the cycle begins where I shut down emotionally.  I've spent a lot of time and energy both in therapy and in other ways (self help books, websites, etc.) working on the reasons I've put up with this all of my life and really made good strides in my codependency.  My whole reason for starting this thread is that I've disconnected emotionally a lot because of all of this, and I don't know if there is enough left to build it back up again.  The stories in this thread do give me hope, but in the meantime, the damage has to stop so we can do that.

I have been following this thread with interest. I have been slowly detaching from my husband for years. I can pretty much pinpoint when I started checking out. It was shortly after he pushed me down when I was holding our youngest daughter. Prior to that, we would go through periods where things would get bad. I would throw a fit. He would get better. I would relax. Things would get bad and so it went. I can't let myself relax again even though my husband says that he is trying. Yes, he is going to counseling and he is trying. I don't see his trying as sincere because we have so many years of him doing just enough to get by with me. If I relax, then he is going to relax and go back to the way things were. I have tried to explain to him that I can't share with him because I don't feel safe with him. I can make one comment and he will take it and run with it so I shut up again. I periodically test the waters and consistently get the same or similar responses, which tell me that it isn't safe. I am at a point where all I want is peace. I have no expectation of ever being able to be vulnerable with him again. It has reached a point where we are coparents and friends and that is about it. I don't see myself getting to a place where I will ever be able to check back in and be vulnerable with him. Every time he cuts me off or goes down that path where I feel unheard and ignored by him, I detach a little bit more.

You explained it better than I did, VOC. That's exactly it... .I just want peace too.  But I also feel like if there truly is no hope to eventually (sooner than later) check back in emotionally, I have to move on.  I can't wait for another 9 years for "maybe".  I don't even want to test the waters anymore out of fear.  I can't relax anymore... .been down that path too many times and gotten burned.  That said, I do see that it is possible, or at least it has been in some relationships. 

I have 4 young kids with my spouse so that is my reason for continuing. After 17 years of this, I don't think it is going to change. Only you can decide how much is enough. I am still detaching with the hopes of achieving peace. I don't want my kids to see the fighting and craziness that became so prevalent there for a while. No matter what happens with our relationship, he and I will always be connected through our kids.

I think part of being able to check back in is being able to put the past behind you. I have a difficult time putting the past behind me because his actions keep reminding me of the past. I don't know how to do it without putting my blinders back on and I can't do that.

 

A quick thought... .question about the "realness" of feelings and actions.

Does it change the way you approach things if you put "for now" on what he is say and doing... .also on your impression of what he is doing.

Then... .throw in some extra interesting spice... .when you realize that he "cycles" or flips a switch much faster than we "nons" do.

If you put those two concepts above into your thinking... .how would that affect your decision to be vulnerable or not?

My take on what is "real"

A pwBPD will paint you black, and heap abuse on you.

a pwBPD will paint you white, and heap praise and love on you.

Neither one is more real than the other.

Neither one is a healthy way to relate to another human being; the pwBPD doesn't have a core sense of who they are in either version.

Both are sincerely felt/believed by the pwBPD at the time.

As YOU grow and become healthy... .neither one feels 'right' to you.

 

A little more nuance to add to the discussion... .

For the pwBPD... .it is real... .because it "feels" real at that moment.  The non will usually have a totally different take on it

Most nons look at reality... .and then figure out how to feel about it.

For purposes of this discussion... .the last little bit of nuance to add... .is that for Michelle... .it isn't real.  For her SO... .it is.

If there is a way she can keep her "reality"... .while validating and accepting her SO's reality is different from hers... .it may help move the r/s in a positive direction.

Also will need some acceptance that she will most likely be more accepting of her SO's reality... .than he will of hers... .  That's just how the disorder normally plays out.

Good discussion... .keep it up!

FF

Which brings us back to the non as an individual are you happily independent or do you grieve/need a close "soul mate'.?

Each person is different in their personal needs. Neither is right or wrong it will come down to whether we are compatible to the inherent dysfunction that will remain if full recovery is not achieved.

I am somewhere in the middle here as i can be quite independent and dont have to share everything, and can take some of the fanciful thoughts as interesting without needing them to be fixed in concrete, just as long as I can see them for what they are. Neither can I live in total superficiality either, and so will push subjects into the trigger zone at times, just to keep it real.

I have been looking at things from the other side, which is that I have put "for now" on what I am saying and doing. I am living day to day with a faint hope that maybe my feelings will change and I will be okay with being truly vulnerable again.

If I look too long at what he is doing or isn't doing, even if it is "for now", I find myself becoming resentful and angry. I want to be able to be imperfect "for now" and have somebody give me some consideration.

The "for now" is also what has led me to test the waters a bit on occasion. And, for me, I realize that I am a bit afraid of what I might say if I were to become truly vulnerable and truly share my feelings with my husband. I know I would sound bat crap crazy because I have bitten my tongue and kept stuff to myself for years to keep from hurting my husband or going down the path of him dysregulating and getting goofy. It is easier to detach than it is to be brutally honest with him. That is on me, not him. I think what I think and feel would likely destroy him.

Thinking his feelings and actions are real "for now" would be difficult for me.  I long for stability and the knowledge about where I stand at all times.  Not without healthy disagreements and resolutions of course, but that's the issue... .nothing is ever resolved and put to bed.  No matter what we end up agreeing on in any issue, it comes back later as if he needs to hash it out again and come to a different agreement. Life has been so chaotic that I really do need that stability in the relationship and I don't know if it's even possible.

Interesting.  I wonder if that's why I am having trouble with this.  I have done so much work on getting healthy in working on my side of things and maybe that's why painting me white and love bombing feels just as wrong to me as when he's raging.  And that means that I have no  peace waiting for him to flip from one to the other.

 

His painting you white and love bombing you... .is the way he feels.

It is quite common for people in a relationship to not agree with each others feelings.

I like your analogy of working on "your side" of things. 

Can you apply that to the issue of him love bombing... .

At the moment... .the thinks you are the best thing since sliced bread... .that's his opinion... .he is entitled to it.  Even if you don't agree with his opinion.

You have a more moderate view of yourself... .that's your opinion... .you are entitled to it.  Even if your SO doesn't agree.

Your feelings on yourself are just as valid as his feelings about you. 

Does this help to look at it in this way?  Let him have his opinion... .and you have yours. 

I know how difficult it is to be in this position as this is where I have been, especially with wanting to revisit issues and come to different conclusions depending on the day, the time, and the mood.

One of the things that I am trying to do is to stop caring so much about where I stand at any given moment. I am pretty certain that my husband isn't going to leave. I am trying to STOP talking about issues. If he brings an issue up again, I try to remind him of the original agreement and NOT talk about it again. This is where boundaries come in. The confusing thing for me is that when he changes his mind, I find myself changing my mind too. I want peace yet to attain that peace I am having to create waves by setting boundaries and refusing to rehash things to death.

In a "normal" relationship, it is normal for people to change and grow and revisit issues as new information comes to light. That doesn't work because of the feelings being perceived as fact. I have to figure out what I want and what will work for me and then make sure that I don't get caught up in conversations where I become as wishy washy as him.

FF was posting at the same time as me.

It is easier to deal with the love bombing and the rages when YOU get to a place where YOU are clear on who you are and what you want. And, it helps to find a way to not let his opinions about you or anything else influence how YOU feel. It isn't easy. It also reminds me that there are a couple of ways to detach. In some ways, I am not detached enough and in other ways I might be too detached. As long as I am still bothered by his feelings, then I am still probably too attached/enmeshed with him.

This makes sense in my head but I am not doing so good at explaining it. I am still too detached from my own thoughts and feelings, which is why I have a difficult time acknowledging them and owning them, which is part of what allows a person to be vulnerable. At the same time, I am still fretting over what he is thinking, how he is feeling, and how he is acting. I am working on that and have made a lot of progress.

I think this is absolutely a big part of why it's so hard for me.  I do have my opinion/belief of myyself (that I am not black or white but many shades of grey).  When he's painting me as white as can be and love bombing me, he wants constant reassurance that what he's doing is so very much wanted and appreciated by me.  And for that, I can't pretend because this cycle has repeated itself so many times that it gets harder and harder to relax into it.  I know without a shadow of a doubt that anytime I'm "white", it's going to be followed by a period when I'm as black as black can be.  How can I possibly relax in that kind of relationship and enjoy the good stuff when I know the bad is coming at any moment.

The bolded part of your post above really resonates with me too.  I am much less enmeshed than I used to be when he would spiral.  In the past, I would see the signs of a spiral downwards and my mood would be affected even before the rage happened.  Heightened anxiety on my part likely fueled the inevitable rage into bigger than it would have been and/or more painful for me.  I've done a lot of work on this lately and the last few times I saw the spiral begin, I consciously didn't let it affect me the way it used to and that felt good.  However, the rage that followed affects me still the way it used to unfortunately.

I think it is normal to be impacted when you see a loved one in distress.

Something that I am seeing about myself is that I have been so distressed about his distress/rage/goofiness, then I am not seeing things clearly and I am not thinking clearly. It is all part of the fog.

I have participated in a lot of parenting forums over the years and helped a lot of parents with situations like that with regards to children. If a child rages and has a tantrum, do you let it ruin your day? The obvious answer is "No, you don't. She is a child and doesn't know what to do with all of those big emotions. It is nothing personal." I am really angry with myself because I could see how it applies to my relationship with my children but I never made the connection and didn't apply this same logic and thinking to my relationship with my husband. I have told lots of parents that children react way better to a parent that is calm and firm and is unaffected by negative behavior. If a child is out of control and you respond in an out of control manner, that only escalates things and makes them worse. If a child is having a bad day and you let it ruin your day, then there is no chance of recovering the day. If you see it as a bad moment instead of a bad day, bad week, bad relationship, then that allows me to keep a certain level of normalcy going, which sometimes soothes things a bit. I can implement this with my kids all day long without batting an eye. But, with my kids, I can say, "No ma'am, you are NOT going to do this. I am NOT going to let you be a jerk and ruin our day." I have done this a time or two with my husband and it has worked. It doesn't feel good though because he is an adult and I expect him to act like one. That leads me to rethink MY expectations, which are NOT realistic at all because I am projecting my idea of what an adult should be and do on him rather than seeing him for who he is.

(Sorry for the rambling. I hope you can make some sense out of it. I am reaching a new level of awareness and trying to figure out how to translate that into action.)

That makes perfect sense.  And I struggle with it big time because my idea of a healthy marriage is two adults, not one that has to act like a parent to the other in moments like this.  Complicating it in my situation, when my husband "crashed" 9 years ago, I took over every single responsibility of his and got put into the parent role, taking care of everything around the house and leaving him the only responsibility of showing up to work.  For years even he joked that he was our family's 4th child.  I own my part of that... .at the time I thought I was being caring and helpful but I now see I was allowing him to wallow in his own pain which just deepened his shame and deep hatred of himself. 

Tell me more about this... .can you give some word by word (or close to it... examples... )

FF

Almost every day he will point out the positive things he has done like bringing me flowers after I did our taxes last week, taking me out for my birthday dinner last month and this or that compliment and that after 9 years of literally doing almost nothing around the house, he has started to take initiative and do things.  I always validate by saying that yes, I appreciate those gestures.  He will then use that to say I should then become completely open and vulnerable with him because of it.  I tell him that I'd like to be, because to me, that's what being in a healthy relationship requires, but that I am unable to because of the recurring rages and my  almost constant anxiety about when the next one is going to hit.  He actually can acknowledge that, but always says, "I'm working on it".  I do see him trying by seeking help but when push comes to shove, when he dysregulates, all of the tools he's learning and back up plans (like leaving when it happens) doesn't happen.  And after a rage, he fully acknowledges that he should have used the tools and/or left but that he is unable to see it because the rage takes him, in his words, "like an out of control freight train" down a path he is unable to see clearly from. 

I have also told him that I would prefer to not have the "love bombing" in exchange for the peace of knowing that when he does dysregulate, he won't put me in the eye of the storm.  He absolutely validates that for me, but only when he's not dysregulating.  He isn't at the point it seems to know it's happening until afterwards.  He's even come up with various ways for me to point it out to him when I see it, with promises to do whatever it takes to keep the storm to himself, but in the heat of it, he denies until after it's over.

I think I know what you are describing as my husband does something similar. He announces all of the good things he does and looks for praise. For years, he did very little if anything. Now, that he is doing stuff, he wants recognition and praise for it. I feel like he wants me to see all of this good and relax and go back to the way things were.

In my mind, he isn't doing anything that is great or special. He is doing things that are part of being a parent and part of being a household. I don't get thanked for putting the kids to bed. I don't get thanked or appreciated when I do laundry or pay the bills or any number of other things. It is difficult for me to find ways to validate an adult that is acting like an adult instead of a child.

One time, I tried to draw the analogy between room mates. If you lived with somebody that wasn't a spouse, would you expect them to thank you and praise you for doing your share of the work? It is tricky because I do appreciate what he does and I try to share that with him in a way that works for me. The problem is that it feels like no amount of thanks and praise is enough.  

I have also tried to explain that it took us a long time to dig ourselves into this hole. It is going to take a while to dig ourselves out. I need time. I need to see him doing things consistently more than for just a couple of days or weeks. It seems like he is of the mind that him doing something right now means that he is going to do it forever and it automatically erases everything else. That isn't how things work.


It is good that he is showing some self awareness and realizes how he gets when he is in a rage. Since the tools that he has now aren't working for either of you, can the two of you try to come up with other alternatives that don't involve putting him in a position where he has to do any thinking? Would it be safe for you to demand that he leave? How would he react to you raising your voice a bit and demanding that he leave? Or, would it be better if you planned to leave or go to another room? If what you are doing now isn't working, try something else.

It is always worth discussing things but in the end behavioral changes need work when behavior is happening.

When you are loved bombed pushing against it in that moment would be invalidating and will increase such a behavior. Validating the expression of love excessively (to match his high flying bombing altitude) and then taking the validation a level back on a medium positive level to take him down a bit. Acknowledge but don't engage too much. Won't solve the problem but with validation it is drip, drip and drip.

Another option is to validate the guilty feelings driving the love bombing when the love bombing is happening. Be careful though as the happy love facade might be "real" enough to mask those feelings and addressing guilt would be perceived as invalidating.

Last but not least would be boundaries e.g. refusing to accept big gifts or gestures. Likely there will be rage or an extinction burst. Still boundaries generally provide the most reliable relief.

It may be worth considering replacing the big love bombs with smaller acceptable expressions. Making up can be an important part even a healthy relationship. Rather than saying "no" saying what you find acceptable and apprechiate.

Addressing the love bombing is worth it. It is a good sign of your progress here that you are being concerned about excessive positive emotions. The more time our loved one is reasonably regulated the better for all concerned.

How often can he actually successfully do this... .versus how often do you end up in the eye of the storm?

This reminded me of something that I have done with a little bit of success. When my husband starts in with the love bombing and telling me how great I am, I will dispassionately say something like, "What makes you say that?" Usually, his response is something along the lines of "You have to be a saint to put up with me." or something like that. It usually turns into him talking about how bad he is and how difficult it must be to put up with him. I listen and respond with something simple like, "I see." or something simple that acknowledges that I heard him but doesn't get me engaged in any kind of arguing or invalidation.


I have found that it works best to let my husband share the guilty feelings without saying much. In that moment, those feelings are very real. I am getting better at listening and acknowledging without really addressing anything. Trying to address anything or get some understanding feels like opening up a minefield. I have to be mentally prepared and on my A game to attempt that.


How does one refuse to accept big gifts or gestures? How can one set a boundary around that without setting things too far back? I am thinking of the fact that my husband brought me home a stuffed gorilla not too long ago. In my mind, I was thinking, "This is silly and I don't really want or need a stuffed gorilla." At the same time, I was very excited that he actually thought about me for a change. There was no way that I was going to refuse that. To some, it would probably seem small and insignificant. In the context of our relationship it was HUGE.

You are SO in the same place I am. I feel exactly the same way.  I didn't get praise during all the years I picked up his slack when he was "unable" to participate in parenting and household chores.  Nor did I want it... .at the time, I did what I thought I had to do as a partner.  I now think I took it too far and he got comfortable with having no responsibilities.  Now that he's working on participating in parenting and household chores, he actually expects me to be over the top grateful.  For doing what you should have done all along?  And I don't have faith that it will continue, so until then, I'm waiting for the ax to fall and I have to take over again.  Like you said, that will take time.

I absolutely understand him being unable to see clearly during a regulation.  He has asked me to tell him (and we even discussed the wording to use) by either asking him to take one of his anti anxiety medications or to leave.  It's all very rational and hope building when we have those discussions about planning ahead when he isn't dysregulating but it seems to go out the window when it happens.  He'll snap at me saying he doesn't need a pill while continuing to escalate.  If I ask him to leave, like I did 3 times on Saturday before I finally left, he refuses.  The very next day he acknowledges that he should have left but that's not good enough anymore for my own sense of peace which is why I asked him to pack a bag and move out for a week for now and we'll reevaluate at that point.  I expected having him gone and in a "being separated" status would have me very sad, but I'm not.  My overriding emotions centre around finally feeling "safe" and very proud of myself for standing up for a boundary I have had for a long time but never actually enforced.  Which also makes me wonder if I've detached so far that it doesn't even bother me that we are apart right now, and what that means.

Wow, we have very similar stories. I did the same thing as you. I think a lot of what got me into trouble is that I did have the "for now" attitude. I did all of the parenting and took up all of the slack to give my husband time and space to heal or work out whatever it is that was going on at the time. I figured that I could take up the slack until things returned to normal. Then, I could get his help and relax and recoup. I had the expectation of give and take. The problem was that I couldn't maintain that level forever and I reached my breaking point because he didn't really step up and step back into his role as a parent and partner. If anything, he stepped further back, which put more on me and I burned out. I reached out to him at one point and said I felt like I was drowning. Instead of offering me a life preserver to help me float, it feels like he threw me a brick instead.