BPDFamily.com

Here is my last thread... .https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=274107.0

Yesterday, I met my wife and kids for dinner and then went back to her house.  I picked up a few things to patch a small hole in the kids' bathroom wall where the towel rack was pulled out.  My wife talked to me while I was doing it and we were having good conversation while I finished that up.  Shortly after that, we had to pick my son up from work and she asked if I would drive.  I said, "Sure, do you want to take my car?" and she said, "Yeah, I would love to as I haven't gotten to ride in it yet."  On the way, she commented how my car drives better than her SUV and that there were a few things she didn't like about her car.  I validated that and moved on.  My son has changed toward me A TON since that day on the lake!  The kids are off of school on Friday and I asked if he would like to go fishing at the lake.  He said, "Sure!  Mom, can we go as a family?"  She said, "That would be great!"  I was actually surprised he said that and a little surprised by her reaction but obviuosly didn't make a big deal about it or say anything.  We got back to the house and sat for a bit while the kids went to bed.  We hugged and talked a little bit about a "new business venture" she is involved in.  I already knew a little about the business, so I just validated her feelings about it.  She thanked me for patching the whole in the wall and I said it was no problem and that I loved helping her.  She said, "No you don't, or you would have always helped."  I didn't respond and she didn't say anything further and we started to play with one of the dogs.  We were laughing as the dog was giving us a funny look when we would kiss and we kept kissing to see the dog's reaction.  Or at least that is my story and I'm sticking to it!   :)  Anyway, a bit later my wife said she was going to bed and I said, "Ok".  I grabbed my things and she walked me to the front door and kissed me and told me she loved me and to text her when I got to my apartment.  I did and she responded that she was glad I got there safely.

Today, we were talking and she asked me to come over for dinner.  I told her I would finish the wall in the bathroom where it needs painting and a touch up from the hole I patched.  She commented how much she was looking forward to going fishing Friday.  A few minutes later I had to hang up and we told each other we loved each other.  

I have come to the conclusion at this point, that there is a high probability that the divorce filing was an "extinction burst" for not giving in on the w/d.  I still feel like each time she dysregulates, we take 2 steps forward. I know that sounds weird.

In honor of Pheeb's comments on my last thread about this being like a soap opera... .

On the next episode of "As The Borderline Turns... "  

Sometimes... .it really is that simple!   |iiii

For others that are passing by... .skimming over threads.  Many times it will seem that a pwBPD traits "throws out" bait to try to get an argument going... .or to get the non to "JADE"

Usually best to leave this alone... .which Maroon did.

Maroon,

How did you sort through "hush"... .versus trying to find something to validate?

FF

So true!



Well, it has taken a lot of self-discovery.  First, I have to realize that there is a "shred of truth" to what they say.  You have to find it and deal with yourself about that truth.  Often times, piled on that "shred of truth" are toppings a mile high of projection or black and white thinking in that moment so you have to keep your mind and thoughts from wandering down their "rabbit hole".  The truth was, before our separation, I didn't help near as much as I should have and my first internal reaction was to say, "I've helped you out a lot in these last nine months!"  What I realize is that is black and white thinking in and of itself in that I'm only looking at a portion of the truth (after our separation).  When she made that statement, she was only looking at a portion of the truth (up until the separation).  So, in the end, what would me saying anything have solved?  Nothing.  Absolutely a big fat zero and as you said, JADE'ing or an argument would have ensued and ruinded anything going on.  She is going to think what she wants to think in that moment anyway.  Moments pass.  Memories within a pwBPD remind me of the beach.  You make a footprint in the sand and when a wave washes over it, it becomes distorted and sometimes almost unrecognizable.  That happens when you don't struggle with traits of BPD, so I try to empathize with their unhealthy way of looking at things and how much more they struggle with their own "demons".  I have also come to think there is some push/pull going on with that and psychologically (even if she doesn't realize it) she is trying to trigger me.  :)eep down, we both struggle with "the need to be right".  I am learning that my "desire" to be "right" often times gets me into trouble.  It's ok to have feelings, but don't be led by them because they usually lead you astray.  

One more interesting tidbit.  When talking to her on the phone today, she said she wanted to "tag" me in this video on Facebook so that I could see it and would later today.  I could have said, "Well, you have me blocked, so how is that possible?", but instead just said, "Ok."  I found that comment interesting.  It has also been almost a week since I have not looked at her Facebook and I'll be honest, I'm much better for it!

Virtual high five!   |iiii

Things are going great for you these days. I think your new game plan of being kind, generous, and loving, without pushing for commitment/alone time with her is working great.

You are doing AWESOME work with her, not taking provocations personally, etc.

She will figure out how to tag you on FB if she wants to. She can figure out how to unblock you / re-friend you first if she needs to. And if she somehow needs help with this, and asks you, you can answer then. Great to let that one drop.

However... .I have two cautions for you:

• She still has BPD. She will still have a 'bad day', and sooner or later she will paint you black and cut you off again. Fortunately you have much better tools for those times. Enjoy the good times for now. ESPECIALLY with the kids!
  
  



• The divorce papers. (I wrote a long bit about them in your last topic) As I wrote then... .
  
  She sent you those papers to sign, so the ball ****IS**** in your court. Own that, and make a choice based on your values. I see options for you:
  
  1. Sign the papers. (without saying anything) -- Tacit approval of the divorce.
  
  2. Don't sign the papers (without saying anything) -- Passive/aggressively fighting the divorce, somewhat provocative. She might have you served by law enforcement next.
  
  3. Before the deadline, have some discussion about it with her.

If you are going to have some discussion with her about it... .go read the rest of what I wrote... .and think about how you plan to go about it. We're here for you to help you plan this out!

 

Is not answering the papers PA behavior?  

I'm struggling to see that.  

I will fess up that the PA thing is a bit unclear to me... .but here is my take.

PA would be telling her that you want a divorce too... .but the sabotaging the process by not doing things... not signing.

She had divorce papers sent, she then told him about the papers, he acknowledged and (can't remember the quote) basically said he still loved her/didn't want a divorce.

Anyway... .Maroon has been clear that he does not want a divorce and won't participate in one.  

Since not signing would be matching his statements... .I don't see how it "qualifies" as PA behavior.

I get accused of being PA quite often... .and I think I'm a direct... .aggressive guy.  I think my wife is the PAish one.

However... I'm really asking here to better understand what PA is.

FF

From the point of view of the law office that sent these papers, sure! The paralegal will likely be sitting back at his/her desk kind of growling, knowing that the address was correct and that the papers were received. At least in offices I'm familiar with, the paralegal would simply make a calendar notation about the day to hand a second set of papers off to the local process service company, and prepare to bill the client an extra couple hundred bucks.

On the other hand, if this entire court action is an exercise in passive aggression, then who knows? 

I think it is.


Maroon, please correct me where I'm missing something, by filling in the blanks.  I'd appreciate it.  From what you've told us, I don't see where you've directly stated to her that you will not participate in divorce.  I think it's safe to say that we're getting the vibe, but is she?

Quote: I asked her if she would like to have dinner later this week and she said yes.  She told me the day that was best for her and I said, "Great, it's a date."  Wrong move on my part!   lol. She asked why I would say that considering how we ware on two different side of the spectrum.  I said, "That doesn't mean that we can't spend some time together."  She said, "You do realize I filed for divorce right?"  I said, "Yes, I got the papers.  I still love and adore you.  That hasn't changed."

Quote: After talking about college for the kids and stuff, she then asked if I could still watch the kids when she goes out of town in three weeks.  I said that was my plan and she said, "Well, in light of where we are, I wanted to make sure and would understand if you didn't want to."  I told her that I made it very clear last night where I stood and that a "piece of paper" doesn't change what I want or how I feel.  She asked if I minded if we could get that "ironed out" to ease her mind and I said sure, I can stop by and we could get that taken care of and then watch a movie if she had time.

So, stepping into your wife's shoes, Maroon, from what you've declared, what I see is a man who doesn't hold the "piece of paper" defining you as husband and wife in super high regard; the "piece of paper" makes no difference in the grand scheme of things-----> your love for her.

This is pure speculation... .her feeling that you not fighting the actual divorce, it will happen and you're okay with it, frees up her mind enough to allow you to start dating each other again.  You're on the same page.

So, by not signing, while not actually "clearly" discussing your desire to "stay married = no divorce", it's passive-aggressive because it's a mixed message you're sending.

 

So... is passive aggressive... .saying one thing... .and doing another?

I was under the impression the the "piece of paper" that Maroon was talking about was divorce papers... .

So... .I took that as he doesn't hold the divorce in high regard... .

That is why communication is so important!  Which is what Grey Kitty has been emphasizing.




A divorce is a pretty big deal and it's important that both parties are clear in their intentions, knowing where the other stands, not speculating and assuming a bunch of stuff.  A marriage doesn't work with only one person in it.

Ain't that the truth! (Both my wife and I realized that if I was the only one "in" the marriage it wasn't worth continuing... .we haven't started divorce proceedings yet, but are separated and I don't any other outcome in our future.)

What makes this situation so tricky for Maroon is that when he communicates directly about this kind of thing with his wife, she seems to be badly triggered... .and gets lots in her own feelings, and doesn't actually hear and understand him. Thus the need for him to very carefully to plan this "communication" in a way that will be effective with her.

Thanks GK... .Last night was another great night.  Will explain that more in a bit.  I'm not pushing her at all and she is way more receptive to me.  


I am, and it is really making a difference.  Not only with them, but with my wife also.


First, I WILL NOT sign anything.


Here is the situation.  The papers were filed with the court, but there is no court date for temporary orders set.  That is why they sent me a copy of the papers and asked for me to respond.  If I don't, then she will have to agree to set a date for temporary orders and then they will have to serve me.  It does me no good to respond at this point.  


Here is the thing, and you may remember, I have told her over and over again in the last nine months that I am not ok with getting a divorce, nor will I discuss it.  I have repeatedly told her I want to stay married and get counseling.  If I discuss it, I'm stepping over that boundary that I set and it just creates a mess.

Anyway, last night, we had another great night together.  There was one or two small things that she said that could have been seen as provacative, but I didn't bite.  I went over to her house and when I got there, I pulled her trash can up to the back of her house from the street.  She met me at the back door and said, "What has gotten in to you?"  I said, "What do you mean?"  She said, "You have been so helpful lately."  I responded, "It's because I love you."  She said, "I like it."  So I helped her with a few things for a bit and then we sat down to take a break.  We cuddled, talked, laughed and I got a chance to validate some things she brought up (random stuff about work and the kids).  Shortly after, we took the kids to their voice lesson and she made the comment, "Sometimes I think we're better friends than married, don't you?"  All I said was, "No" and left it in the air (learning that sometimes a simple answer is the best).  She laughed about it and I changed the subject very smoothly and on we went.  I cooked some pork chops on the grill and we ate dinner.  After, I helped them clean out the garage, her kitchen and her room.  Throughout the evening, I would put my arms around her and she would put her head on my chest and we would tell each other we love each other.  While cleaning her bathroom, she turned to me (looked very tired) and said, "I want to thank you for everything you did tonight.  This wasn't your responsibility at all and I appreciate so much that you helped.  Thank you."  I responded, "I do these things because I love you.  Actions are more important than words."  She smiled and said, "Yep."  We went to bed a bit later and she asked if I was staying with her and I said, "If that's ok." and she said, "Of course."  She fell asleep with me holding her.  All in all, another great evening.  She texted me this morning and said, "Thank you for all your help last night.  I appreciate it."  I said, "You're welcome!  I'm your husband and I love helping you!

Hello ML,

Phoebe mentioned in one of her posts about 'authentic behaviour' and that has stayed with me as I have followed this recent situation around your wife serving you with divorce papers. For me authentic behaviour is the meeting point of who you are and what you do, it is the expression of ones core values. For me I perceive your indirect resistance/reticence/reluctance to address the divorce as something that is  'off' ( and can be perceived as passive-aggressive ) in amongst all the positive steps that you have been making.

My concern would be in moving forward with your wife and family in the way that you have been doing is that if you leave the divorce 'unexplored' then it simply leaves this open to happening again.

For me if I were not to address something as significant as this issue with my h it would be like I was missing a very important communication from him. Like I was not hearing what he had to say. Also as I have read your posts your wife has been consistent in her path toward divorce and being separate from you and hasn't always been dysregulated when talking about these areas for her.

I understand that there is ambiguity in your wife's presentation but maybe it will be important for both of you and your emotional well being to find a way to address this issue.

I just want to add to the very sensitive post by sweetheart the thought that putting an end to the ambiguity for the children involved will be a valuable thing too.

I respect y'all's outlook on it.  I'm not saying I won't have a conversation, but at the moment, I am trying to take each day as it comes.  I don't believe the kids even know.  Yes, she paid to file, however, we don't have a court date (which says everything).  She will have to make that court date if that is what she wants (which will cost her more money).  If that is what she truly wanted, she would have gotten a court date, but still believe this was an extinction burst to get me to beg, plead and bend to her will.  When my ex-wife's attorney filed, they didn't send me anything, they just served me and gave me three days notice on the date for temp orders.  As I said, I am at peace and not going to rush anything.  Call me P/A or whatever, but I'm not ignoring the elephant in the room.  At the same time, I'm letting her sit with the decision and feel that herself.  I don't believe this will go any further, but if it does, I already have my plan B in place.

Maroon,

Nice work on this... .!

Simple... .direct on your part.  

I think you continue to do well.

How did you change the subject... .do you have tried and true method... or still trying to find one

Good post from Sweetheart... .I think this brings up a good issue for everyone to take a look at... .think about.

Is there a way to address this with a pwBPD so that it won't happen again?

This ties in with Grey's point earlier... .that clear direct communication is triggering for Maroon's wife (this would affect the tactics used to have the discussion).

Personally:  I guarantee you my wife has told me she will divorce me... .wants a divorce... etc etc... .over 50 times (probably more)   

I've had attorneys call back my house and I was only one home to answer (if it really was an attorney)  "just returning her call... .she called us yesterday... )

I've found lawyer papers "forgotten" in the printer...

etc etc etc.

So... from my point of view... .I can totally buy into this is a threat... .a provocation... .an expression of emotion... .

I now use divorce threats as a gauge for the intensity of emotion my wife is dealing with... .nothing more.

Luckily... .I haven't heard a divorce threat since... .  Christmas I believe.

Anyway... .in "normal" communication... .direct and open is best.  Many times in pwBPD communication it is best as well.

However... .I haven't a clue how to address it with ML's wife... .without for sure triggering.

Put that in the mix with his current tactics are working quite well... .

I'm sort of at "don't touch anything... " stage

Thoughts?

Haven't the kids been in a state of confusion for nearly a year already?

Maroon, I think you are walking a really fine line... .and doing a FANTASTIC job of it. Here's how I see a few things... .

You believe that your wife filed while in a bad, dysregulated state, when you were painted black. (I wouldn't even venture to doubt this!)

You believe that your wife will be quite content to 'forget' about this... .at least for a while... .which is plausible in a pwBPD... .and you know her far better than we do.

Given how easily triggered she is by discussions around further commitment with you, having a conversation about the divorce filing is a hugely risk. My recommendation to have a conversation was on the premise that she would see your lack of signing as a provocation... .and the result of ignoring her would be at least as bad as the conversation.

... .

The more interesting question is this--would you rather stay living separately with separate finances? Or would you be interested in moving back in with her, AS SHE IS TODAY?

You know my advice about how dangerous raising this topic can be... .I'm asking you to think about it, and figure out what your position really is, so you can respond in tactful ways that stay true to yourself should she suggest moving back in together.

Painting you white and thinking that everything about you is perfect is completely possible on her part, and it doesn't mean that she has recovered from BPD, nor does it mean that moving back in with her would be safe/wise for you. This comes to mind... .

Great Hepburn quote! May not fit in with the idea of a biblical marriage, though.

I'm still really liking Grey Kitty's analysis.

Thanks.  This is how it went... .

Me: "No"... .Wife chuckles... .and as we turned the corner to the house there were kids in the street and i said, "Oh look, let's see if they move... .She laughed and said, "They usually dance when we drive by... ."  


I would like to know this too.  Until they get help, or decide it doesn't work, I wouldn't think so... .So far, I feel like I'm showing her it doesn't work by not reacting and not acting like its a big deal.  


This is where I stand.  Nothing in 9 months has gotten me to bend on paying w/d... .From her point of view, I could see how she would think this would be the straw that broke the camel's back as a last straw.  I remember it was either FF or GK who months ago said these last nine months have been one big extinction burst.  Her fit she's thrown has gotten bigger each time, but when she calms down, her and I make more progress (2 steps forward and 1 back).  Maybe this is the straw that will break that camel's back and she will realize I'm not going to bend.  Thoughts?


I'm also in the "If it ain't broke, then don't fix it" camp... .As GK pointed out, and I'm seeing it play out, pressing her is triggering for her and I believe its because she "doesn't see a way out right now".  I can't worry about that.


Here is where I stand on this issue.  I won't move back in with her in that house as I previously laid out my reasons.  


Which is why we will also need to be in counseling... .

"Sometimes I think we're better friends than married, don't you?"

ML what do you think your wife might be saying here given that she is not dysregulated or triggered ?

The reason I am asking you this is because there has been a lot of this type of communication from your wife and I believe in choosing not to address it on any level is not real. It colludes and reinforces the dysfunctional dynamic that still runs underneath the good feeling of being painted white. I say this because for your wife it sounds like you are very much her knight in shining armour at the moment and whilst it probably feels great, I'm not sure how realistic it is.

I believe from the stand point of your geographic separation it might be safe to start to explore whether what you want, which is to be married and I think move back in with your family is actually possible by tackling what is also unsaid and difficult and therefore potentially triggering, but no less important.

How about re-framing this statement in terms where you take ownership for your actions and choices? "We need to... ." is a recipe for an unhappy maroon liquid, given the very real barriers to her agreeing to and doing the hard work in counseling.

If she goes to counseling with me, I will... .(fill in)

If she doesn't go to counseling with me, I will... .(fill in)

I quoted Katherine Hepburn because what you are doing today is pretty close to her 'solution'... .and i think it is more applicable when either the man or the woman is a pwBPD.

123Phoebe, I hope I'm not miss-characterizing your r/s when I say that you are quite happily living out that Hepburn quote!

I get what you are saying here, and I'm not trying to argue or live in denial, but I have known her for 12 years, and married for almost 5.  We have always been close and best friends.  It seems to me that over the last two months she is starting to feel "positive" things for me again because of my actions.  Before, all it was was negative and drama and because I have removed that as much as I can, she is responding better.  A few weeks ago, she said it was "like we were dating again".  I think she is having so many emotions going through her that she is having trouble processing them.  By pressing her on it at this moment, I feel she will react negatively to it because she will see it as an ultimatum.  I see that she is sifting through her emotions little by little and that is a positive.  

 

ML,

Do you like to play cards?  That was a non-threatening way that I reconnected with my wife... .this past summer when we were separated.

Just thinking... .

FF

ML i understand you wanting to keep things stable and calm. This will be crucial for your childrens well being.

My observations and thoughts are always made with your end goal in mind, being back with your wife and children.

I understand and I appreciate all the input.  I am trying to find my way through this. 

Had a good evening yesterday with my youngest son and spending some time with him.  I was supposed to take him to baseball practice but it was rained out.  We just went to eat and messed around.  My wife and the kids went to their church so we didn't see each other last night.  My wife and I talked last night after she got home and she invited me to her church for Good Friday service tomorrow with her and the kids.  I didn't have any other plans so I told her I would go.  We had a great conversation and prayed together.  Again, taking one day at a time and right now that seems to be working... .

Well that's cool, Maroon; hope things continue to go well :)

Update:  The last few days have gone well with my wife and kids.  Friday, my wife invited me to a Good Friday service at their church and so I went.  It was good.  It was awkward the first few minutes, but that went away.  My wife introduced me to one of her friends (our sons are pretty good friends) and they talked for a bit.  After church, I took my oldest son fishing for the afternoon and then had softball practice that evening.  My son and I had a good time and spent some quality time together.  I really enjoyed it.  We haven't spent time just him and I in over a year.  After dinner, we went back to my wife's house and all watched a movie.  We went to bed and my wife and I held each other for a while.

    Earlier in the week she asked me to go to a meeting with her to give her some advice on a business venture she got involved in a few weeks ago.  I'll be honest, she does these kind of things once a year (like clockwork) and does them for a few weeks really well, and gets very behind on her "day job".  In order to not lose that one, she quits the business venture and is always out a few grand.  I know this is very common for pwBPD, so I just try to validate where I can and be supportive.  Ultimately, this year, I'm letting her live her decisions and be supportive and validate where I can.  Regardless, I agreed to go and yesterday we went.  She met a few ladies sitting next to her and spent the next fifteen minutes talking to them.  Finally, she introduced me as her husband, and began to tell this lady that we had six kids.  The lady explained that she was a social worker and then my wife told her about our dream for the future.  They sent each other friend requests on Facebook and kept chatting.  I'll be honest.  It was strange hearing her talk about this when I haven't heard her speak to anyone about it except me in months.  I went with it.  We went to lunch and she asked me what I thought about the first part of the meeting.  I gave her my input and told her I thought it could really help with the dream we had later down the road.  She started to "trigger" between talking with the woman and lunch a few minutes later.  I realized it really quickly when I brought up the dream.  She said something to the effect of, "If you're thinking this will make everything better between us, it won't considering the situation."  I said, "Explain what you mean."  She said, ":)o you really want to get into this here?"  I said, "Well, I can handle it."  She said, "You do... .Ok... .The divorce ML... ."  I said, "Wife, I fully understand you filed, but that doesn't mean we have to go through with it.  As I've already told you, I love you and the kids and want to work with you on our marriage."  She responded, "You SAY that... ."  I left that in the air for about 15 seconds and didn't say a word.  I continued eating, but knew she was uncomfortable.  I asked her what she thought about the chairs at the meeting and we both agreed they were extremely uncomfortable.  When we got back for the second half of the meeting, she was leaning against me and I was putting my arm around her.  

    On the way home after the meeting, she got triggered again talking about our "dream".  She said, "I know how you feel."  She said that she didn't love me the way she used to and didn't know she ever would.  I said, "I hear what your saying.  It will take both of us working together to fix things." and I changed the subject right before we got home.  We went to eat with the kids and went shopping.  We held hands and kissed and I realized some things.  Number one, I had a wise mind yesterday and thank God for that as I saw those possible dysregulations coming a mile away.  Secondly, I noticed that she triggered herself yesterday when talking about a dream we have for our future.  It's because it didn't line up with her current circumstance.  After talking with that lady, I guess she "remembered" she had a filing for divorce on the table.  I never got upset or the teensiest bit angry.  I never showed that it bothered me.  I really feel like she was telling the truth with the perfect stranger and when she is around people that she has painted me to, she is BPD.  Her friend she sits with at church is having problems with her husband (she was responding to a text and over saw it as I was standing behind her), so I really feel like they are a sympathetic ear for each other.  

    This morning, my oldest came in before I left and asked if I would button his sleeves on his shirt.   Told him how nice he looked and he said thank you and that he loved me.  Told them all Happy Easter, gave my wife a kiss and the kids a hug and left.  All in all, handling things is much easier after all these months and my wife is reacting better.  I refuse to react.  I am doing much better at being proactive.  Where I'm still having some trouble is when I identify the "triggers", finding things to validate.  I don't like not saying anything or changing the subject all the time.  Thoughts?

 

|iiii

Nice work.

Offhand... .I think you let the current situation roll a couple more weeks before "pushing" to work with the triggers.

I've been trying to think about how to broach things... .but ultimately... you guys need to get into some kind of counseling situation. 

Right now... you are the only one regularly seeing a T... correct?

I would say let a couple weeks pass... .if she takes no action on the divorce... .well... .that says a lot... .and about 100% confirms that it was a provocation and not something she really wanted.

Do you think that using SET when she is triggered could be better.  I hate to suggest that you change things... but it seemed like your response was direct... .without much SE. 

However... .what it seems you did well... .is notice the trigger... .give a clear response... and move along.

FF

I totally agree.  The funny thing is, I'm at complete peace over this thing.  I feel like I'm actually handling her issues better than I ever have not concerned with any outcome.  Strange to say this, but I feel like her filing took all the pressure off of the situation.


Yes, I see my T again on the 14th... .


That's been my plan since the beginning.  Last night I went over and cooked dinner for the family and helped my wife get some things done for her business venture.  She was very affectionate and told me she appreciated how helpful I've been and that she loves me.  I'm trying to show her that I won't be led by her emotions, but instead be led by my convictions and beliefs. 


This is where I'm having the issue.  I notice the triggers, but validating that is diificult with her at times.  I could have tried and validated that she was conflicted about talking to a complete stranger about our "dreams for the future" and then remembering she filed something counter to those dreams.  I have no problem validating the "good moments" so to speak, but the "bad moments", I have been burned where she tells me, "You don't know me at all!" and things get worse.

No, you CANNOT validate that kind of thing. The whole point of that sentence is that she is contradicting herself. She's skirting the awareness that those two things cannot both be true at the same time. 'I understand that you are bats*** crazy about this' is completely true, and completely invalidating, and that is pretty much what your statement boils down to!

Even if she hits some self-awareness you haven't seen yet, and explains to you exactly how it is triggering to her, how it is a self-contradiction, try to say as little as possible!

What you want to validate is her FEELINGS. "You seem upset." is the farthest I could imagine going. In your shoes, I'd save validation for times when she isn't stomping through a triggering minefield... .and when you see her trying to play hopscotch into that minefield, look for ways to change the subject or clear the heck out for a while.

---

It appears that the list of triggering topics I hope you will simply avoid bringing up with her now include commitment to you, spending quality time with you (sans kids), money, and any future plans/dreams the two of you previously talked about together.

You've decided not to bring up the divorce filings, 'cuz any mention is gonna dive right in there, and I'm with you on that.


Say... .did she un-block you on facebook and tag you in whatever she said she wanted to do a couple days ago? (Another good one to notice and keep your trap shut about!)

That was kind of my point too... .


I'm learning to avoid those "like the plague"... .lol



No, she didn't, and I never mentioned it again.  I figured it wouldn't happen and I was right.  I remembered what she told me a few months back that, "She didn't want to have to explain to people who thought she was doing one thing that she is doing another."  I respect that from a standpoint that it is difficult for her to have to confront that issue (kind of the same thing with telling that woman the dreams for our future and then triggering her).  I am looking at Facebook as completely irrelevant at the moment.  I hardly post anything on mine anymore, and don't look at hers.  I do post on our softball team page with stuff that is relevant to the team obviously.

Sounds a lot healthier about facebook.

I'd look at it as a toxic way to communicate with your wife... .and avoid looking at any of her stuff or posting anything related to her... .

And look it as a way to stay connected to other people, mostly far away, and something that is tempting for me use in unhealthy ways.

These days, my biggest use of facebook is chatting with long-distance friends on it. I like that FB Messenger and my computer have the same conversation... .so I can do quick/short chats on my phone... .and if I find myself wanting to write a book, I can shift over to my computer where I type a lot faster. [My phone has the Messenger app running most of the time. The "Facebook" app which gives me access to my wall is only up for a few minutes most weeks, 'tho I do spend some time surfing FB on my computer.]

So everything has been good, and even talked to my wife on the phone this morning.  I texted her this afternoon and said, "Thinking about you!"  She responded an hour later with, "Have you signed the waiver on the divorce paperwork?"  I said, "No, I didn't.  I want our marriage to work."  She said, "If you don't sign it, then it cost me money to have you served."  I haven't responded.  I guess she is splitting... .

I meant to put in my last post that I guess she heard from her lawyer today that I hadn't responded.  Yesterday was the 15th day.  I believe my answer was necessary because now she realizes she will have to spend more money and this puts her at a crossroads... .I'm still at peace.  I actually don't feel I'm walking on eggshells anymore. 

Hi Maroon, it's nice when things are going good, isn't it?  I'm glad you've had so much quality time spent with your family.

I don't even want to get into the possibility or probability of whether or not your wife is going to follow through with the divorce... .

I am seeing a dynamic and it seems to be all or nothing.  Black and White.  Back and Forth.

Is this something that you're willing to continue the rest of your married life doing?  Wonderful, intimate time together (and as a family).  Sending loving sentiments.  Her threatening divorce, you not taking it seriously.  Is it something you can get used to or even want to?  Is it fair to her, when she's making it plain-as-day-obvious that she doesn't appreciate your loving sentiments?

Here's the thing... . She might not follow through with the divorce.  She also might.  There are pages upon pages of people on the leaving board who have been through similar situations as all of us.  In the event that she does follow through, do you really want to take it that far, where she's hellbent on getting a divorce with one of her reasons possibly being because "her husband never took her seriously".

Please don't ever forget that she has BPD-- a serious disorder of the emotions.

I'm really wondering why you haven't addressed the divorce with her yet?  She's brought it up plenty of times to discuss something about it, surely... .  And I mean other than you don't want it. 

 

Maroon,

I think you made a clear statement to her... .she knows where you stand.  I don't think the follow on text needs to be addressed... .certainly not via text.

Here is my guess... .and I stress guess... .at what happened.  And I'm speculating because I'm trying to figure out patterns... or possible patterns.

You send out a nice text... .she has a recent history of responding well... .so... .I think that was good thing to do.

However... unbeknownst to you... .she was already triggered... .grumpy... whatever... over the divorce... .it was going to cost her more money.  So... .she comes back at you over it.

I'm totally agreeing with 123Phoebe... .that there does seem to be big swings back and forth... .very white... .or very black.

Wow... .hang tough... .I'm glad you are at peace. 

 

That's the way I feel also.  I'm sure she heard from her lawyer. 


I agree there too.  I think she sometimes notices her emotions being all over the board and it scares her.  What I also notice is there is usually a big swing the weekend before I have my kids and has had them a week before I keep hers (keep them the following weekend and get mine this weekend).  I didn't respond after the,"I want our marriage to work" text.  When she got to the field for our game a few hours later, she was fine and asked if she could keep score for me.  We talked on the phone a few minutes afterward. 

Very good that you are noticing patterns. 

What is the status of your tax situation?

Phoebe has a real point here. If your wife says "I want a divorce" and you say "Yes, dear" and look back at your morning newspaper, that would be incredibly invalidating to her... .and what you are doing isn't very different.

Can you think of any way to have a better, more validating conversation with her about it?

I believe she is totally bouncing between painting you or the marriage black and white, or something of the sort. While neither is consistent, both are sincere (at the time!). You are able to validate her when she is being loving toward you.

I think this is obvious, but I'll re-state it anyway--pointing out her utter inconsistency is invalidating.

You *might* be able to explain that it has you feeling genuinely *confused*, if you can keep it about yourself, and she is in a fairly open place.

Here is an interesting discussion area you might try: "We are already living in separate houses with separate finances. How do you see being divorced as different from what we have today?" Do this with sincere curiosity what she is thinking/feeling about it, not as a rhetorical question, and not as a way to 'trap' her into seeing her self-contradictions.

 

Interesting thought.

Does Maroon bring this up... .or just get some responses ready... .for if and when she brings it up?

Here is my take:

If she pays and gets the service done... .then I think at some point Maroon will have to find a good time and initiate the conversation.  Having this conversation when she is painting him black... .is recipe for disaster.

I suppose there is the argument that if he has an effective conversation... .it may stave off her having him served.  Or... .what I think is likely... .is that it could trigger her to push forward.

There is a chance that she has it in her mind that you guys will get divorced, yet continue things as they are now. 

That is me thinking through the "aren't we better friends that we are married" comment.

For sure this conversation is one that Maroon needs to be ready for... .I guess my main questions involve timing.  It does also seem to go against the vibe of "don't touch nothing... ." since the family time aspect seems to be going well.

Thoughts?

FF

This morning started off well.  My wife texted me and we talked about softball for a bit and getting a hotel room together this weekend.  I decided to call her and talk about what she asked me yesterday about signing the waiver.  I just called her and it didn't go well.  It was a way for her to dysregulate and I realize just how confused she is.  I stayed very calm the whole time.  I asked her why we couldn't go to counseling to try and salvage what is between us.  She went off... .She said there is nothing between us.  She then blamed me for us not going and saying she has been asking for it for years.  I then told her that I got appointments twice that she couldn't make.  Her response was, "IN THE MIDDLE OF MY WORKDAY!  YOU EXPECT ME TO DROP EVERYTHING FOR YOU?"  I said, "Wife, those were the times you told me you were available and so I made the appointments off of that information."  I then got all the blame for our entire marriage (again), how abusive I was (the irony was she was yelling at me), and that I refuse to take responsibility.  The ones I loved the most were, "You expect me and my kids to live under your control, do everything you want and I won't do it anymore.  :)o you think I would have moved my kids and I out if i had any intention of working things out?" (This is not what she said at the beginning of all this).  The other thing I thought that was interesting was when she said, "It isn't costing me anymore money as I already paid my attorney in full.  So if you don't sign the paperwork, I will have you served."  Then why in the world would she text me and say it would cost her money?  She also said, "I thought we could be friends at the end of all this.  I'm not getting into this with you" and hung up on me.  Are you kidding me?  WTH?  I'm wondering if she had this idea that we would "get a divorce", then continue to see each other and try to build something that way to where it "looks good" to outside people.  I'm realizing just how confused and mentally all over the place she is (and maybe she is too).  It's sad.  I'm still at peace knowing I called and was calm and loving and still telling her I want things to work.  It still amazes me at times how pwBPD refuse to take any responsibility and would rather throw someone to the curb that truly loves them than get help.  It is almost like when things are going too well, she has to create an issue to dysregulate over.  Something else struck me weird.  She said something about us being intimate as "just sex" and that I've had sex with other people and should know what she means by that.  I said, "I have no idea what you're talking about, will you please explain it?"  She said, "I won't get into it."   :)  :)o they not hear themselves?  I'm thinking now I should have let it go... . 

She just texted and said, "I had hoped that you and I could do this amicably in order to lessen the fallout to our kids. You continue to choose to make it very awkward for all of us. I guess cutting you and therefore your kids off completely is the only way you will clearly understand. I won't be physically abused by someone who says they "love me". I won't be used either. Sign the papers or don't sign them. Your choice."  I haven't and won't respond.  She wants a fight.

DUDE. On what planet would your wife respond well to a question like that? Of course she went off. You've already fought about being in counseling before. And asking about it implies that there is something wrong with her that she needs to go to counseling. Even though that is true, she isn't going to hear it from you and react constructively.

I was suggesting you ask her about what she feels or what she expects, and listen to what she has to say. That would have been validating.

If you want to improve/save your marriage, STOP ASKING her about areas where she contradicts herself.

Radical Acceptance--The woman you want to stay married to is completely confused and full of self-contradictions, and likely to explode when you point any of them out to her. Don't expect that to change.

And... .if you happen to be around her... .when she figures out a contradiction (such as when you are at the conference with her... and she was talking to that woman)... .it can go south as well.

My remembrance is that you did well with that.

Look... .this one didn't go so well... .can't be changed now.  Press on... .next chance you get... .work on finding a way to validate.

 

FF

So I texted my wife to let her know what I found as far as a hotel for our softball tournament this weekend (as she asked me to do) and she responded with details on a different hotel.  I said, "Great, lets go with that."  She said, "We won't be sharing a room."  I responded, "Ok.  I see how sharing a room with you would make you uncomfortable.  It's understandable and don't ever want you to fee that way."  She responded with, "Just leave me alone please.  :)on't text.  :)on't call.  You want to "make me feel" something?  Make me HAPPY by signing the waiver."  Funny, I thought she had paid her attorney in full and was going to have me served whether I signed it or not.  Oh... .That's right... .Yesterday she said it would cost her money if I didn't sign it.  Make up your mind woman!   :)  I didn't respond... .Next week I'm supposed to keep the kids again.  I guess she'll call then.   :)

My wife justs texts me and says, "My lawyer just contacted me and asked if you are going to sign the waiver or not.  His number is on the paperwork if you have any questions.  We need an answer."  I refuse to be put under pressure.  This was after I sent out a team email asking for signatures from my players for my tournament roster... .

 

My understanding is that you have told her that you aren't signing... .as long as that is the case... .I don't think you need to answer a repetitive question.

Hang tough!

FF

I am.  It's almost like a continued "extinction burst" to see if I'll finally play.  Don't know why the pressure to sign the waiver, or a divorce is all of a sudden.  Emotion I guess.  It's almost like a no-win at times.  if I don't sign them, it could be seen by her as controlling, if I do, then I'm abandoning her.  Her text about "cutting my kids off" obviously was a control tactic to get me to bend to what I'm perceiving as she wants. 

Maroon, what are your priorities here?

Fighting with her over whether you will sign a waiver of service is really ludicrous.

If you have clearly told her that you won't sign it, and stick to that message, then you are at least being consistent.

But really... .what are you trying to accomplish by being stubborn about this? Do you think that making her pay something around $100 to have you served will accomplish anything?

Step back from the 'game' she's trying to make this into... .and is having fairly good luck at getting you at least worked up, if not downright engaged on it.

What is your 'winning' scenario where you get what you want with your wife? And how is it different from what your wife wants?

From what you say, she doesn't sound interested in dating / replacing you. And you don't sound very interested in moving back in with her, 'tho she sounds afraid of it while dysregulated.

I guess I don't understand your question.  im not involved in her game or at least I don't think I am.  My winning scenario is having a r/s with my wife.  I don't know what she wants.  She is very contradictory.

Be more specific, what kind of r/s you want with this contradictory woman. Nuts and bolts daily life specific.

You could move back in with her, be an emotional punching bag, and support her financially, the way you did prior to being kicked out. (Guessing that doesn't appeal much... .and don't think she wants it either.)

You could continue living apart from her, but still spend a fair bit of time with her and her kids, just like today. (Complete with dysregulations and silent treatment and divorce threats)

I'm not trying to be a pain here... .but either of those things qualifies as "having a r/s with her".

Paint me a picture of a plausible scenario with your wife being who she is today... .that would be how you want to live with her in your life.

I answered you on my other thread... .

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