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Has anyone on leaving board been able to recover their relationship, and knowing what they know now, make it work better? I've been replaced, she has moved far away, her family still talks to me, likes me, hates replacement, still says they're hoping for me. But from ex of fiancée I am cut off. Has anyone beat the odds and found happiness in it?

You might want to post this question on the "undecided" and "staying" boards?... .

Not for long or happily by all accounts... .check the stories on the staying board... .poor souls 

poor souls indeed.



I kind of liked my explanation of it from a similar thread:

being successful in a relationship with a BPD is like being "successful" in rebuilding a totaled car. Sure, you have your 67 Challenger back, but it has cost you more than buying a brand new Hellcat,  and there's still that engine knocking you need to take care of, you already need to tune the suspension,  sometimes it doesn't start, and sometimes the engine will ping when you hit the gas (BUT SUCCESS IT WORKS [technically!])

Quite funny because when I was replaced with no warning the first time after 5 months of being idealized I thought I'd somehow snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.

Regardless,  I did "get her back" after being discarded and I am able to periodically get reidealized but the initial honeymoon phase will never return. Also once you know about BPD it's never the same,  you end up almost waiting to be stabbed in the back,  it's not fun.  I'd recommend a  "fwb " type deal at most with them.

Oh. And if you want your BPD back here's the recipe

No contact

Wait until she calls you

Answer

Act like you are super happy with your life,  tell her you hope she's doing well and no hard feelings.  Tell her that you don't see her the same way now,  but you do still care. She's kind of like a sister to you,  maybe you could be friends.

That should be enough to activate the pull phase,  after that your on your own.

There are cases where BPD relationships can work, although it does depend somewhat on how you define working.  It will never be easy, and it will never be a "normal" relationship, but if both partners can manage to make the necessary changes an equilibrium can form, if perhaps not true stability.  You can expect that there will at times be dysregulations and other problems even under the best of circumstances.  However, if you really love your partner and accept them as they are, I can certainly understand.  I can't say I wouldn't give my all in a second chance with my ex.

It's important to realize, however, that you can't force this to happen.  There is nothing you can do to get her back, and trying to do so will likely only drive her further away.  The ball is entirely in her court.  You must realize that you are a powerful trigger right now, and she is not able to handle interacting with you right now.  This is not in any way your fault - it is entirely the disorder, but it is still the reality of things.  You can only wait, and it's your decision as to how long you want to do so.  There is simply to know when she might contact you.  While it is more likely than not she will at some point contact you, it might be quite some time, and it's possible she may never.  I'm only telling you this to be completely honest with you, so you have realistic expectations.

The best thing you can be doing right now is working on yourself.  If she returns, and you want to be with her, you are going to have to be an incredibly strong man.  You are going to have to be as patient as a saint.  You will have to be a master communicator.  You will have to be her rock.  You will have to be able to provide the soothing and nurturing she can't provide to herself.  You will have to be a hero, my man.  even if she never comes back, you will be such a man if you can become this.

I just can't see how a one sided relationship like this could possibly be called a victory. I might be missing something... .

It depends on what your conditions of victory are.  If you truly love someone and want to be with them, then I certainly see it as a victory.   It's an incredibly personal decision, and one everyone here has to make for themselves.  I don't think there can be one right or wrong answer.

You are right that it will never be an equal relationship, however.  But if you love someone, then that may not really matter.

Cosmonaut, if you don't have a career in motivational speaking or as a writer, you're in the wrong field. I have truly appreciated so many of your posts. Whoever she was, she was a damn fool.

what if she's the one who went no contact without warning a year ago lol .

I feel like I snatched victory from the jaws of defeat the day I decided not to recycle any more and to go NC. 9 months later I haven't changed my mind.

This. This. I would give an arm just to hear something from my ex

That's just my personal opinion. There is only one way this could possibly work - the BPD person admits to having a problem and goes into the treatment that requires about 5-7 years to show results, if it shows any results. This rarely happens. It takes two to have a relationship. A BPD person is really never fully there mentally for it. People do a lot of things in the name of love but this is going into what amounts to the constant emotional abuse (whether it is intentional or not) and being fully aware of it. Personally, it is tough for me to understand... .

what if she's the one who went no contact without warning a year ago lol . [/quote]
Logically one would think she'll never make contact again. But she's not logical. My ex filed false charges against me, mounted a distortion campaign against me, and told anyone who would listen that I was physically abusive and that she was afraid of me. And she was the one who returned to stalk me. Makes no sense, I know; but neither do they. Their unpredictability is predictable. I find that many seem to have a knack for initiating contact after their respective former partners/victims have turned the corner and no longer want the chaos in their lives.

If you become all these things, then you can find someone worthy of you.

There are many fish in the sea.

Just reading this makes me want to walk a block to the corner bar and hit on some desperate looking woman just to reinforce this in my mind!

It's amazing more don't come out of denial and seek help.

My ex's "schtick" went like this: 1. she admitted she was "crazy", 2. she then kinda redefined that as being passionate or something like that, 3. she stated that she was okay with her crazy, and 4. she just needed someone that could love and accept her as she is (and have that person not running screaming in a few months or be devalued and pushed away by her).

There is an entire industry/hobby manufacturing incredibly shallow bumper stick style sayings for these folks to share and put up on their refrigerators to justify their entire lack of self perception and true empathy for others.  In fact, their lack of metacognition is sold to them as a state of enlightenment!

I'm perplexed how a mentally ill person can justify such a "take it or leave it" attitude.  I'm much higher functioning, and I work to improve myself and try to see myself realistically and admit fault, etc.

You're right.  For a BPD relationship to work both partners are going to have to change and the pwBPD certainly has their share of changes to make.  And it will be very hard for them - probably much harder than for us.  My hat is off to any pwBPD that has the courage and strength to do that.  It takes real grit.

That said, there is simply no right or wrong answer as to whether of not to continue a relationship with a BPD partner.  Every relationship is unique and every person is unique.  BPD doesn't change that.  Some partners are more toxic than others.  My own ex wasn't an abuser.  She certainly had her own issues, but I don't believe she is a toxic person.  Matters of the heart do not play by the rules of logic.  We love who we love.  We just do.  And sometimes love requires sacrifice and commitment.  If someone chooses to remain in a BPD relationship, I support them.  Just as I would support someone that chooses to leave.

I understand what you are saying, Invictus, and you are not wrong.  But there is another side too, and I don't think that side is wrong either.

Logically one would think she'll never make contact again. But she's not logical. My ex filed false charges against me, mounted a distortion campaign against me, and told anyone who would listen that I was physically abusive and that she was afraid of me. And she was the one who returned to stalk me. Makes no sense, I know; but neither do they. Their unpredictability is predictable. I find that many seem to have a knack for initiating contact after their respective former partners/victims have turned the corner and no longer want the chaos in their lives.[/quote]
Right on my friend. Mine stalked and drove by my house a lot after she disappeared. Its truly crazy. I'm pretty much detached now. Tomorrow is the one year anniversary of the disappearance And other than missing my baby I honestly feel nothing for her.

Can't comment. Mine never goes away for long.

That's a common statement on pick up artist sites, referring to the porn star quality sex.

Again, not to invalidate you, but these type of deals do not work well with pwBPD. Those who are vulnerable(that covers all of us), will be sucked back into the drama. Furthermore, taking advantage of mentally ill woman with no boundaries, reinforcing their unhealthy objectification of themselves and others, is far from ethical. You will take one angle of the drama triangle, which usually leads to harming the other party involved, and eventually yourself(you expereinced that from first hand).  

That^ |iiii

The only winning move is not to play.

Victory, for me, is staying as far away as I can. As much as it pains me to see her at Volleyball and remember what used to be, I dont need her chaos or drama. Nor do I need the abuse. I would never take her back, nor would I enter into a FWB with her. Nothing good would ever come from it. I barely survived the first go around.

Heldfast, I agree totally, you have helped me understand the craziness Cosmonaut, thank you.

There are certain people out there,  and I place myself in this category who have been through the ringer so much with their BPD that they can "survive" the gaslighting. My first "breakup" nearly killed me but the second one I had a couple of miserable days then I was fine again.

I am not sure on the ethics of using game on a BPD and just casually hooking up with them but I don't subscribe to the view that they are completely out of control and don't know what they are doing.

If someone is strong enough to remove themselves from the drama and can just enjoy some good fun with a BPD and get out of dodge when devaluation kicks in then it's up to them.  I wouldn't recommend it for people who don't learn and will continue to white knight,  however.

I believe that some of what you are saying here is purely chauvinistic, and it's distressing that you have this mentality.

I don't agree with it being chauvinism.  I spent a year being used up by a BPD waif and in the end what did I have to show for it? It was not a positive experience in any way other than that it showed me I was codependent and needed to change.

At the end of the day these people can't be helped if they don't want help. I don't think there is anything wrong with having casual sex with them if you are careful and can handle it.

I spent a year strapping on my armour and grabbing my sword and shield and running into 'defend" her or whatnot and it never meant anything for her.

There's too many people on this site who went through this and are  STILL codependent.  It's like, learn the lesson

 Inferno

  PREACH. Game lesson free of charge! NICE!  lol

I disagree completely, Infern0.  This has nothing to do with codependence.  pwBPD are not capable of entering into a fwb type relationship on anything resembling equal footing.  They are at a distinct disadvantage.  They have an extremely serious disorder that mandates the formation of attachments and is characterized by extreme emotional instability.  pwBPD often engage in impulsive behaviors as a way to cope with the tremendous pain that they feel - including promiscuity and hypersexuality.  This is an extremely vulnerable population.  To use them for sex is exploitation.

I don't want to attack you because I know you are very hurt and are trying to heal, same as all of us here.  But I really do think that you need to reconsider what you are saying.  pwBPD are very sick.  These are not monsters, no matter how much their behavior may hurt and may even be down right abusive.  They are sick.  We need to maintain some compassion for them.

I agree with what cosmonaut said, however this is not my thread and this will be the last thing I mention about this. If anyone is reading this and also is distressed by what has been mentioned here, I want to make it clear that this is NOT the views of all members here. That being said, you are entitled to your opinion, Infern0, and although I think it's hideously wrong, I will not make another statement on it.

They know right from wrong. They choose to do wrong. I can't tell you how many professionals I spoke with prior to filing my court case and they all say the same thing. They are users and abusers of others. My ex used ME for sex and to have a kid. We are the ones that were fooled and lied too. And cheated on.

The therapist after I had my breakdown told me that although pwBPD can make impulsive decisions and do have deep core trauma that they do,  knowingly and willingly use people.

My ex did this,  she was aware of her BPD diagnosis but chose not to do anything about it and she ruined my life.  Granted I played a part in this by having weak boundaries and allowing it to happen.

I do have compassion for pwBPD but they have a choice to get help and make an effort to get better.  When they are aware of the pain they cause people and do it anyway that's where I draw the line.

My ex is unwell,  she knows that and she knows there is help and treatment but she chooses not to get it and instead uses and abuses others to make herself feel better.  That's not cool.

I can appreciate your anger, hurting.  I know that you have been terribly hurt (it's even in the username you chose).  Clearly you are deeply wounded by what has happened to you.  Being cheated on and abandoned would leave anyone angry.  I get that.  I am angry sometimes too about what has happened to me.

What we have to remember, however, is that we are not dealing with a rational adult.  These are not emotionally developed people.  They do not have an autonomous "self".  I understand how it may be easy to not see that because they look like fully developed adults.  They are physically mature and mentally mature.  They can talk like adults.  But they are not fully adults.  They are emotionally very young children.  It is near universally accepted that children can not be responsible for their bad behaviors.  This is something that must develop as one matures.  It is not something that is present in very young children.  And this is exactly where pwBPD are trapped.  This is not something that they chose in any way.  This is something that happened to them.  They do not choose to be emotional children and they don't choose to hurt you anymore than little children do.  Yes, little children will scream they hate you and use silent treatments and throw their toys to act out their anger, but they don't appreciate the effect that this has on others.  They can't, because they are not developed to the point of being able to do so.  Many societies hold the "age of reason" when a person can accept full responsibility for their behavior and fully understand their actions and their consequences to be at age 12.  pwBPD are trapped in a stage long, long before age 12.

I'm not trying to hurt you or anyone else is saying this.  I understand your anger very much, and it is justified anger.  You have been grievously wronged.  But it was not something that was done with malice.  It was the result of an extremely serious mental illness - an illness that has robbed someone of their life and of the ability to be an adult.

Two things. (1) I think having compassion for them in the early stages of healing can be dangerous. Plenty of us already blame ourselves for our failed relationships while thinking in black and white like those with BPD (but in this case we paint ourselves black and the BPD white). I someday hope to have some compassion for the person I was involved with, but right now I'm already too forgiving of her disgusting actions to start having compassion for her. That will make me long for her even more thinking she wasn't that bad. At some point I'd like to be healthy enough to feel compassion for her while at the same time maintaining a knowledge that she is dangerous.

(2) A good portion of those with BPD are comorbid (also have NPD or at least have plenty of narcissistic traits). To those people, I would definitely call them monsters. Yes, they may be sick, but they're still monsters, in my opinion.

I always struggle with that notion. IMO it WAS done with malice. It was done with the same sadistic glee that a child who pulls the wings off a fly or swings a cat by its tail has. The reason for it being illness yes, but none the less done with an almost psychopathic malice.

Similar to when some say it's not personal. Sure, they do it to anyone and everyone so in that respect it's not personal but considering it's done to those closest to them, how much more personal can it get?

I have a difficult time with compassion for mine.

I agree. It was done with malice and intent. The push/pull, slowly pushing me out of her and her kids life and poof, dumped and you dont exist anymore. I too have zero compassion for her.

One thing I'd add about the fact that BPDs aren't emotionally developed: somehow, the defect of living their emotions, most of the times, to the extremes, usually gives them unique, strong "positive" traits to their personality. This is probably the main reason about why BPDs are so attractive and, most of the times, so difficult to forget.

I'll give a simple example: when I was with my ex at some social event, she usually was very charismatic, friendly, she had abundant eloquence, and in many cases she was able to become the "engine" of the event.

These are all very positive characteristics, and I liked them A LOT... .but then, you realize these are just two faces of the same BPD-coin, i.e., if you live your emotions to the extremes you'll end up producing positive and negative effects.

One more thing to keep in mind as the discussion of "intentionality" continues:  all pwBPD are individuals. Some are malicious, some aren't. Some are co-morbid; some aren't.

Blanket statements about groups of people are rarely insightful or helpful.

The better focus is on your own healing. What can you do to strengthen your own boundaries so that emotionally destructive people can't get 'in'? How you can spot - and acknowledge - the "red flags" you see in people so that you don't end up in a similar relationship in the future?

I dunno, man... .considering the first year for the Challenger was '69, I'd bet a '67 is worth a LOT!  :)

Want made you do this once and for all?

How healthy are we when we are eager to be accepted back into the life of our exes who display the emotional maturity of a child? Why are we ready to forfeit our own existence in order to save the r/s? You cannot be involved with a pwBPD without losing yourself IMO... .they will demand of you all that you can give and it will never be enough. And when you fail, you will be discarded once again.  How can any healthy individual want this for their life?

I agree with Inferno on this one, he has had the recycles, he knows what he's talking about from experience. I don't think he is saying it's ethical to have a FWB r/s with these people, he said it's the best we could hope for. As he knows, after every recycle things get worse and worse. The damage is done. There's no undoing it.

I totally agree with Infero and Pingo as well as Cosmo. You all have valid points that all ring true. We arent dealing with rational people. Im screwed up beyond measure. I couldnt handle a recycle or FWB. Hell, barely survived this r/s. They couldnt either. Its the proverbial dog chasing its tale. Wet hair, apply generous amout of product, lather, rinse, repeat. It just wont change. Best we can do is take care of ourselves, and god is it hard to do when you have been beat down to where you dont even recognize yourself anymore. Who wants to keep living that way? Its not living. Its becoming a drone or zombie. I miss her, I love her and think of her often. But I couldnt live like that. Oh I dealt with it at the time, but now that Im out, I see it for what its worth... .nothing.Who wants to keep spinning around like that?

I was blessed in that my exBPDfiancee was high functioning. While there were many red flags along the way, I never really got the full brunt of them until after we were engaged, when her fibromyalgia went into overdrive, and she emotionally disregulated, eventually leaving me for her ex boyfriend of 7 years ago, who she reconnected with at a mutual friends wedding. He was, and I'm not just saying this out of spite, nothing special. Given how much her family detests him and is repulsed by him, she probably did it because he was safe, from her past, and the extra little drama was a thrill for her.

Having said that, if she were to want the help, I'd put the work in. She probably won't being both high functioning, and a bit of narcissism there as well. She is no contact with me, but hasn't blocked me on anything, even though I reach out. I texted her on skype and let her know that after this weekend, I'd do all the blocking. But if silence really creates the atmosphere for a return, and her therapist (who I also saw several times) said just assume she'll call someday, I know that one day I'll hear something. I am somewhat of a romantic, and somewhat quixotic in my thinking. I have also read up some on game websites, but the ones I consider more emotionally mature, Alphagameblog, Dalrock, etc. to try to figure out how to deal with my own perception of myself. I am reading up on stoicism, using some of the money I spent on her to travel, trying to make myself a better me so that when she calls, I'll be secure enough in myself that I can stand ready to support her, or just be so moved on I do not care anymore.

As for why... .I love her, and I accept the emotionally undeveloped side of her, but would only re-initiate if, and really, it isn't my choice right now, I could get her back into some help. I know the downgrade will fail, I know she'll disregulate again (and really, Seattle weather is my ally on this one, she moved from Saint Thomas, USVI to that), and I hope that someday, soon, whether to say hello or anything more, she'll likely call.

These ^ are very good questions to ask yourself.

And Heldfast:  my ex was high functioning as well.  Assistant Superintendent, as a matter of fact. But in intimate relationships she was chaotic (alternately needy and clinging, then detached and avoidant), chronically dysregulated and emotionally immature. Despite her professional success, a healthy, intimate, trusting, reciprocal adult relationship with her was impossible.

Did I love her? With all my heart. Could I try again? Not without destroying myself in the process.

What I learned from this in therapy is how immature I am how I am in a way damaged as well .

Water finds it own level I guess . The good thing is I don't have a pd so have a better chance of growing and becoming .

True Dobie, and jhkbuzz. I acknowledge that I have some personal deficiencies I have to address. As for evaluating the relationship with her, I do realize that it would be years of therapy and a road of broken glass to try to fix it, assuming she wanted it to be fixed, which she doesn't. The replacement has no intelligence, so he'll never realize what's about to happen to him, even though I warned his best friend. Oh well, for him no pity anyway. Her family knows, but there's nothing they could do, even if they wanted to. It's all up to her, and she wants to just keep pretending this is ok for her.

Heldfast,

If she did contact you, and y'all were able to get back together, what are your expectations? What can you tolerate? What do you expect the relationship to be? What roles do you expect to be played? Etc. I am asking these questions because expectations were obviousally not met the first time. Unless she has undergone extensive and long term therapy, she will be the same person she was before. Something went wrong the first time, why do you expect it to be different if she hasn't changed (even if you have)?

I'd expect us in intensive therapy and her on her own for years. I'd expect a ___ load of making up, not just with me, but with the friends she abandoned, including her best friend she was supposed to be maid of honor for this June. But they all know the score, she'd have the best support network a woman could ask for and in a small island community where she'd know almost everyone. They're sad for me and pissed at her, but if she came back, she'd find a big family of people cheering us on. Not one in a thousand could claim that.

There are no guarantees that therapy will prevent the chaotic, dysregulated behavior that you have come to know so well.

In the summer before we broke up (after finding out about more episodes of lying and infidelity) I told my ex that the only way I would continue in the r/s was if she entered therapy.  She was actually very eager to go, we found a good therapist, and I breathed a deep sigh of relief.

One year later? I discovered that she was lying to me during the entire course of her therapy - she had remained in touch with her affair partner although she had promised me that she wouldn't.  I uncovered this when I looked at some online pictures of a half marathon she had run in and noticed that he was in several of the pictures with her.

She moved out 2 months later.

The road to recovery for people with BPD is a long, rocky road - with no guarantees that therapy will be successful.  :)on't kid yourself about this.  :)ecide if you can live with the behaviors you have been experiencing, because your current experiences are a likely representation of what your life will be like long into the future.

Most of all, take care of yourself.

She was in the island/close community before and it didn't keep her there. I may be wrong, but it seems that what you expect of her may not be possible without "years" of therapy, if even successful. You seem to be expecting a lot from her right up front. You will have to tolerate a lot while therapy is underway. There is nothing that would stop her from just up and leaving again. That's a huge personal risk for you to, knowingly, undertake once again. Her illness is ongoing it won't be suppressed until therapy is completed.

Brother I am with you. I, we, would love to one day read your success story on here, a true success story, one without constant struggle. It just seems to me that you are expecting much where little is available. From my very humble understanding of the successful cases regarding therapy, they are not "cured"; the BPD is still there; they just learn to recognize it and handle it better, develope better coping skills.

jhk, do you read minds as side work? Look at our simultaneous posts!

That ^^^^

They have to want help. My exgf was in therapy after her husband bailed, but as soon as I came in the picture, therapy stopped. As the r/s circled the drain, I felt responsible and guilty I started seeking some counseling, a little at first. She dumped me. I tried one final time to win her back, come to counseling as I wanted to marry her, and she just said, glad your in counseling, save it for your next girlfriend, or your wife Molly(my daughter). She said some other harsh crap and that was it. She had no interest, to her, I didnt exist anymore. She had my replacement already so all is good in her world. Who needs therapy when you have another ass kisser white knight around?

Didn't know what I was up against first time around. But I acknowledge that if I had a chance, which right now, I don't  (only an expectation that one day that phone will probably ring, and I'll have to see where I am at then). But if I were in a place where I was strong enough in me where I didn't want her anymore, no problem. The question is always will she say she needs help? If she did, and I was available, I'd likely say yes. I make no pretense over it being anything less than a road of broken glass if it were to work at all.

In the end, these are all hypotheticals since there isn't any evidence that a reconciliation is a possibility in the near future.

Knowing that, how are you taking care of yourself right now - to heal and to move forward with the next chapter of your life?

Exactly, it's not about therapy but about motivation, about wanting to change. Otherwise therapy ain't gonna change a thing, indeed it could very well make things even worse. My ex is in therapy for a couple of years now but she hasn't changed her ways at all. She's less delusional/psychotic for sure but that's mainly due to the medication I think. The only way I see her really wanting to change is when she's used up everyone, her family, her own kin, her (ex) boyfriends and when her looks start to fade so new supply won't be so readily available anymore. Until then here's how she 'uses' therapy: free money (it got her on disability for years), free dope (Xanax) and yet another source of supply ( a friendly chat with a therapist every week that completely revolves around 'poor her'. Other than that she still spends her days hanging out in bars, parks,... .getting drunk and high, associating and sleeping with other lunatics, felons, drunks, junkies and sycophants. There's no work being done, no improvement, the therapy just stripped her of the very few responsabilities she had, enabling her to do more of the same destructive behavior... .

IMO the only realistic expectation to have when stepping into the relationship again is more of the same. You'd have to be completely detached so you won't be bothered by being used, cheated on, lied to and abandoned. So what kind of relationship would that be, it'd be a fwb type of situation at best.

I have begun reading voraciously again, fiction, non-fiction, philosophy, therapy, and really anything I can get my hands on. Been keeping the TV off, got into art classes. bought a rowing machine to start getting back into shape (need to quit smoking again, any one want to guess when that habit was restarted?), meeting with a therapist to deal with some personal issues. Just started dating again, have a friend with benefits relationship with an attractive woman, who is a long standing friend who also went through a break up recently. It's a very odd dynamic, but we are both supportive of each other's feelings and have discussed and maintained boundaries. Have a dinner group set up for Game of Thrones, starting next Sunday. Traveled to London on my own (courtesy in part of one returned engagement ring), and have a trip to Ireland booked as well for end of summer with a buddy who has some family out there. Of course, a few selected movies (High Fidelity, 500 days of Summer, to get a little smile while feeling the pain), and listening to more music now (still get the feeling every break up song ever was written about me). But overall, I'm in a safe place for myself now, and looking to improve it.

So personal improvement, some stoicism, some health, some travel, becoming a more interesting person by pursuing intellectual things I've wanted (need to pick up a language next). Next up, getting back into rugby (my mind is telling me no... .but my body, my body is telling me yes), possibly more time diving and boating. At least I live in the islands, the sun is shining, the water is warm, and no one wears any more clothing than absolutely called for by the occasion.

Oh, and my pride and joy, I am organizing and just received license to host a TEDx event.

THAT ^^^ is all awesome stuff!  Sounds like you're headed in the right direction - good for you! |iiii

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