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My friend fears I am critical about her because I have been critical about other friends towards her. With this basis she calls me stuff I don't recognise myself in. I had to say that. She then felt very negative about everything (she thought I was). I was shaking during these awfull accusations. And then she told me I was acting like I'm sensitive but I'm not and it's not fair... .

Is validation enough?

look up projection and generalization, that's what they are doing.

only validate the valid. i know it is natural to assume that. but look at the facts of what i am saying and my actions. does that correspond with the feeling?

Help! What did I do wrong  :'(

issy FYI

innerbonding.com/mobile/show-article/2958/stop-taking-the-bait-of-projection.html

Ok moving myself from the arena that's what I had to do, too late now I think now she is gone. But she really wanted to be validated for these judgements I think. So walking away would've had the same result I think. But maybe less heavy. I feel so stupid to do this again! It's really hard not to bite, I was still calm though and trying to validate but my body was shaking! I can't help that it hurts, but she felt invalidated because I was hurt! Probably because she felt I had hud hurt her and now I 'act' hurt.

dont validate the invalid!

Ok that means she is now gone forever

I agree, don't validate the invalid. If you know the things she is saying are untrue, why validate them. Is there anything in her statements you can validate, without validating her negative assumptions about you? I live with this a lot with BPDh. I want to validate him, but I sure won't do it when I know he's spouting his own assumptions and perceptions about me!

And your friend is likely not "gone", she is just miffed because she's dysregulated. I'd bet when she calms down, you'll hear from her again, or you could reach out in the future.

Maybe the way she feels? I've been told validate what they feel not the 'facts'. But I tried and it didn't help. It didn't because I was hurt and that showed and I said it. She felt invalidated by that, so I had to validate again that feeling while I was so hurt!

I mean she told me if you are critical about others then you are maybe critical about me, that I could have validated and I did but not firm anough apparently, the fact that I was so hurt overshadowed it all, so everything felt terrible for both of us and now she blames me for it.

if you validate the invalid it will not calm her down as it is skewed thinking

Ah ok poeh there are so many different versions, 'cause when to validate then! When she has this picture of me she has this picture, I see it differently I'm sad she sees it differently and that is that

Look! At communcation skills section:

The fact is that problems in relationships are often a result of what individuals do with unvalidated feelings:

Dissociation - they can keep them out-of-awareness, a part of not-me, hidden.

Projection - another option is to get rid of them, discard them, put them into someone else, project them.  

So invalidation is the cause of projection! So I had to validate her feelings! But cannot do it anymore when she projects? The feeling behind her false assumptions and accusations was a fear of rejection, how to validate that when it's under the surface? She is BPD she will have this, what can I do? I don't reject her, but her cold judgements about me hurts me, and I don't want that hurt simple as that, is that rejection? If I can't deal with probably... ?

So I should've said:

I understand that when you hear negativity from me I have of others, you would feel I hold negativity for you.

That's all? I thought I worked on this validations skill but I have to practice, with her... .And there is no time to practice with her... .

Issy,


Just read the thread... .  your friend is not gone... .but don't "push" to get your friend back... .  ok... . 

Validation is for emotions... .not for opinions.  So... .you can validate "fear". 

To properly validate you have to find the "target"... .or the right emotion.  Sometime they make odd statements and it's hard to figure out... .is there anger here... or fear... .or ... what? 

That is where I love "Help me understand what you are feeling when think of this question... ."  Be very gentle when you ask for help understanding.  If an emotion is revealed... .validate.  If more opinions come out (you are judgmental of me... because you are judgmental of my friends)  then deflect... ."I'm sorry you feel that way... .I'm interested in your emotions... "

Note:  This may get nowhere... .some pwBPD traits are very resistant to revealing emotions... .

OK... .if you can't get anywhere with finding a target to validate... .then you SET an opinion. 

Can you give it a try?  The "truth" is your version of the opinion... .

So... .supporting statement

Empathize

Give your truth about (counter) the negative opinion. 

See if you can write out what you are going to say and post it here.

Do NOT tell her you are wrong... .you are just giving your point of view.   Don't debate... .just SET... and move along


Last thought:  Some days you may not want to deal with this.  Boundaries are useful here.  A good boundary might be that you don't listen to unsolicited critical comments about yourself.

So... .if you ask for an opinion... .don't be surprised if you get one.

If you don't ask for an opinion... .don't listen to them.

Simply state:  "I'm not interested in listening to evaluations of me right now... ."  If they don't stop... walk away.

FF

Thanks I hope to write my response out tonight and post it here.

 

Good... I'll be keeping an eye out for it.

For instance... .

Today my wife approaches me about a business issue in one of our rental houses.

She is worked up... .and demanding to know what I had done about it... who I talked to... etc etc.

I gave her some information... .and she started giving me tasks that need to happen.

I informed here that I did not believe phone calls would work... and that I... .or we could go right now... .knock on the door... discuss rent... post a notice... and that would be better... .in my opinion... .than more phone calls.

"You don't have to be belligerent about it... ."

I said... "honey... help me understand how taking immediate action is being belligerent... "

You should have said this... you should have said that was the response...

"Honey... .I am more than happy to help out with this situation but I'm not going to listen to discussions of feelings I don't have, what I should or shouldn't have done... ."

The got more worked up... .

I said... "You've got this situation... .I will be willing to help if I can be treated properly... ." and I walked out the door to do something outside.

She stomped and shouted around the house for 5-10 minutes... and then seemed "pensive" even now... .it's been a couple hours.

If they toss their junk at you... .let it land in the floor... .and walk away...

FF

FF is right - focus on emotions on her side. They dominate her world. Facts are often just props. What matters for an emotional person is that we 'get' them - not that we agree about props.

Hmm... .very interesting way to put it.

How do we know that... .they know... .that... .we get them.

What does that look like.

FF

Hey, Issy.

I would also advise that you pay attention to how you are feeling. Validation and empathy are not really going to happen when you are triggered in fight or flight mode, yourself. While you remained calm during her statements, your body did not. It was telling you something, and I really have learned to listen to these cues in myself a little better. My MC has told me several times, it's very difficult to validate when someone is attacking you. Your thinking becomes governed by the amygdala, which is just not the logic/reasoning/wise mind part of our brains.

So my recommendation to you is, by all means, perfect the skills of validating emotions versus storyline - that is genuinely showing care and compassion for your friend. But, if you are shaking, your heart is racing, your body temperature is increasing, your breath is short or held, be kind to yourself and create a boundary. I do this with my wife often, and I let her know I need to separate because I am feeling upset. I first provide a brief validation of my best guess at her emotion, express my boundary, let her know when I will be back, let her know that I am open to talking more at that time, AND THEN I GO AND TAKE CARE OF MY NEED. It is just really important to do this for yourself, or you will not be able to really have/build/grow that caring and empathy that needs to be there for your friend to believe that you "get" her.

Just my 2 cents.

 Thank you all, you are all giving good advice. :)

This is what I want to send her (sorry for my broken English):

I think I understand now why you were so upset and why I had the feeling that you blamed me for the fact I was hurt. Because maybe you felt that I blamed yóú for hurting me? I can absolutely understand now you could feel that way, but I did't think you were to blame, and you aren't at all because I had chosen to hear what upsets you. :) These series of judgements has hurt me intensly. That is definitely something I do not want, I can't handle that. And then it hurts you too, so that doesn't work indeed. Yet it is important to express how you feel about things. Maybe it's better to find out in advance what it exactly is that you're feeling, instead of what you think? Maybe write it out first for yourself for example. Or maybe when something is bothering you or upsets you, tell me how it makes you feel and ask me if the feeling is based on something correct. So I can tell you what I meant with a certain action or something I said. And will definitely try not to invalidate your feelings, for they are real. (for example: it must have felt invalidating to you when I sended you tons of options for getting the job I thought you wanted, I really thought I helped you there scince you've indicated that's the job you wanted, but maybe you felt critized for what you are doing now, I am so sorry I never meant that ) Or maybe you have another solution? I am happy to hear that.

What I took from all this now is that you feel when I criticize my friends, I might also criticize you, right? Oh I understand now very well you then think that! The feeling of rejection is just awful . (... .?)

Maybe it's an idea to build our friendship up again through text message? For example, I was really happy Monday for something, I wanted to share this immediately with you! Or that we do something fun together, where we are not concerned with what bothers us, but just keep busy with something neutral and fun.

Is this ok? Any advice is welcome.

Issy,

A lot of good words in there, but also some things that may be taken as JADEing. Her response is not necessarily rational. So trying to ask her to check in with you to see if you really meant to hurt her, while reasonable, in my experience still falls into JADEing.

What do you think the emotions were that she was feeling - as close as you can get? Frightened, angry, sad? Start with that. You have the sympathy down very well - you are on her side. The empathy is that, yes, you get her feeling [frightened, angry, sad], and if you felt as she did, you'd act the same. Your truth statement is what? "We work better when we check in with each other to make sure we understand what the other said." or "I like being silly with you, and I miss that. Is that something that you want too?" or "My intentions are good. I really like being with you."

Overall, less words and avoid anything close to JADEing may get the message across better.

Thank you! You made some good points!

I looked up JADE again. The list here https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating (https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating) is very helpful, and made me see I had some JADE going on during our meeting! Even though I really tried to validate her.

Ok so now I am trying to find the JADE in my story. This part probably had some like defending:

(for example: it must have felt invalidating to you when I sended you tons of options for getting the job I thought you wanted, I really thought I helped you there scince you've indicated that's the job you wanted, but maybe you felt critized for what you are doing now, I am so sorry I never meant that )

I guess my 'solution' option is also JADE, what are your thoughts on my proposal to her?

And all the truth statements you've suggested are my truth statements... ? I guess the first being most important.

She felt angry I think. She seemed so convinced of her perceptions and I felt being very blamed for everything.

So this is JADE: "ask me if the feeling is based on something correct. So I can tell you what I meant with a certain action or something I said."

Can I still propose this?: "Maybe it's better to find out in advance what exactly it is that you're feeling, instead of what you think? Maybe write it out first for yourself for example."

Probably to rational?

The problem is, I get into trouble if I will remove myself from the scene when she is 'attacking' me, then I will not hear what she really feels so I can validate her. Besides maybe it's possible she can work on a more softer approach...

That was the JADE statement that stood out. "I really thought I helped you there since you've indicated that's the job you wanted." If she is already feeling criticized by you, stating that turns out to be a big invalidation for pwBPD. Even if it is the truth.

Better to just stick with the fact that she felt criticized, hurt, angry. Empathize "I would feel criticized, hurt, angry too if I thought that someone who cared about me did ______." I try to be cautious here. I don't want to validate the invalid. Sometimes, I tell my wife, "I would feel like you did if I thought that you were doing what you believe I did to you." I never agree that I actually did anything to her. She experiences what she experiences. I have no control over that, but I can let her know that her feelings about what she experiences are safe to feel and okay. Our MC is actually a pro at this.

When I read the beginning of your message, it seems like you are offering the olive branch, but you are guessing at (and trying to be empathetic with) whatever it is that upset her. My suggestion is just to acknowledge that you see she is upset (doesn't really matter why), and that you know how that feels. That neither of you want to be hurt. Then go into the SET on criticism.

The mistake that I continually make is to look for a reason to understand my BPDw's behavior. We are seeing the tail end of the whip as it cracks. All of the events that led to the whip being deployed and set into motion are not visible to us. If a pwBPD could express those things and make them visible and known, so much of the suffering could be arrested. But that's the nature of the disease. They are not overly aware that their thoughts are galloping away without stopping. Not until they hit that brick wall. My advice with your friend is to stop trying to find reasons for why she lashes out or gets upset or complains. If you want to be with her without getting hurt, you have to find your own center and hold to it and know that her storms will blow over if you do.

Thank you, it's so hard to prevent from invalidating  And on the other hand if I hadn't told her that image of me is not the whole me I wouldn't have heard her say 'yes I think so too'... .Now I know she knows it's her perception and maybe an incomplete one.

Another example:

In the beginning of our friendship, when I didn't know she had BPD, she judged and blamed me for being a 'good girl'. I responded I don't believe in such things, I am who I am without choosing to be bad or good. Well that excalated a bit then. How would I respond now? I don't know! Like: 'I understand it makes you feel you are the bad girl... .' ohno that's not good right? I don't think she is a bad girl or me a good girl! I still don't have the hang of this! What do you think how best to respond to this one?

Hi Issy,




It is not so easy as there are cultural barriers keeping us validating negative stuff. Two strategies to avoid invalidation:

1) JADE as a mantra - most cases JADE is invalidating

2) Learn to validate well. Do not try to avoid invalidation - too complicated - focus on doing the right thing i.e. validation and accept that once in a while you misstep and when that happens then apply JADE to stop yourself and prevent escalation.



Validation 101: Do not start sentences with "I". Best leave "I" out. You are going in the right direction. Try again.

Thanks an0ught,

I will use JADE as my mantra.

Is it ok when an outburst happens if I say 'I have to leave now because it's hurting me and I'll get back on what you said later'? Because JADE might happen again and validation on the spot is still difficult for me. I'm better at validating when the heavy emotions I feel are gone and I can think about what happened. But also I figure out what caused her these emotions, then I can understand her, validate her, have empathy. But as takingandsending pointed out, I just have to aknockledge she is/was (still is?) upset and know how that feels. But at some time I have to read between the lines right? When I want to use SET... .This time she literally said it makes her feel I critise her, but what if next time she leaves how she feels out? I have to ask?

I will work out a new response, with SET included. I'll post it here again.

You know validating is exactly what I did when she felt bad about something or someone that wasn't about me. I didn't start with I in those sentences as well. Maybe I have to imagine that it's not about me but about someone else.

You were triggered, when you try to deal with complex emotions when you are triggered you will make a mess of it.

When you feel triggered step back and revisit it later when you are not as affected emotionally.

BPD issues rarely have to be resolved immediately

You're right, thanks waverider.

So here is my improved response:

"(Hi, I wanted to message you sooner, but I wanted to make sure I don't invalidate you again.)

I saw that you were hurt this Thursday. I got so emotional I couldn't tell you I know how that feels, I can also be sad and angry when I feel I am not good enough.

These series of judgements has hurt me intensly. That is definitely something I do not want, I can't handle that. And I saw that it made you feel bad too, I do not want that either. So that's not working indeed. I still think it's important to express your feelings and the things that upset you.

Maybe it's an idea that we check in with each other the moment something is upsetting to make sure we understand what the other said? So our feelings don't get piled up. My intentions are good. I really like being with you."

This time I didn't empathize how I saw me being hurt made her angry. I like to adress it though, but then its guessing how she feels, I can put a question mark behind the sentence? Or is it still not something you'll advise to do?

And I do feel this is a bit of a colder version... .I want to portray warmth, I don't blame her and want to make her feel loved like I do

Hi Issy,


Building sentences without "I" is very hard initially. Often it helps to do it with "I" and the reformulate it. Like

"(Hi, I wanted to message you sooner, but I wanted to make sure I don't invalidate you again.)

I saw that you were hurt this Thursday. I got so emotional I couldn't tell you I know how that feels, I can also be sad and angry when I feel I am not good enough.

could become:

You were badly hurt this Thursday. Waited with sending you a message to give you space to get better a little. When one feels one is not good enough that can hurt badly - been there myself in the past and still get upset when I see it happening to others.

Now the rest of the message may be better done f2f. You want a change. That is more in the direction of SET and DEARMAN and frankly JaDE - definitely a lot of explaining there. The problem I sense is that you want to tell her a lot. That you want to set the facts straight.  Validation is not SET but a part of SET. Validation is focused on her emotions and perception and helping her to make sense of her inner world. If you choose to validate then this is about her and your views take the backseat. Validation is about helping her to be anchored in this world and not another.




It may well be that you are more an analytical and logical person who values facts. You tend to Explain a lot and that is part of jadE. Also you tend to form judgments of things you observe and share them which is part of Jade. When hurt you rely on your analytical skills and argue and defend yourself which is also part of jADe. All this makes you prone to invalidate your friend. And explaining it won't make it better. It is a fact of life that we all hurt people around us all the time to a degree and all we can do is minimize our negative impact and optimize our positive impact. Which you started out doing  |iiii

So how to validate the "good girl". A first step would be understand the root problem.


There is anxiety and fear to be judged which results in a tendency to leash out at others when it happens. Probably also a bit of shame and feeling being not good enough. Often this happens when people have a weak sense of self and not really good boundaries. They are overly sensitive. And again since she is afraid to be judged for being too sensitive she lashes out and projects it on others.


O.k. here we got black and white thinking on her side. Which makes you uncomfortable i.e. you are invalidated since deep down you know you are not a perfect good girl. Btw. the fact that this makes you uncomfortable is again a sign of strong judgement strengthening your "inner critic" that undermines your self esteem.

Now do you have to set the "good girl" view straight. No, not at all. She uses "good girl" to express how bad she feels about herself. Telling her your sins won't make her feel better. Arguing the facts is a loosing proposition and will only invalidate her. She needs to understand that you heard her:

 Yeah right, I'm good girl and that makes you bad girl <big break><big break>   - Note: B&W message to ensure it is understood. This is likely not your view at all but signals your understanding.

 What's so bad about you?<break> - Note: No "Why" but an exploring "What"

      blah blah

 Ahhh, hmmm, you think so?<break> - Note: Listening noises can be helpful too signaling attention and some understanding. Also note: No own judgment but asking for her view

    blah blah

 I understand. I did not catch aspect X<break>

   blah blah

 Yeah, this is pretty bad. Must be tough to deal with a past like that <break>

   blah blah

 Yeah, and today anything learned from that?

  blah blah

 Learning if important. So is forgiving yourself. The latter is not easy. Struggle with it myself. <break>

   blah, blah

The main point of this dialog is to show how to explore, perceive rather than judge. Understanding the other person and making sure in the process for the other person to feel understood it key to validation.

Reducing JADE will not be easy for you but worthwhile. Try not to think of a pink elephant! Try hard to not picture a pink elephant! You are likely to fail. Negative goals are hard to pursue so here are positive ones:

 - work on validation. A good validation practice is to greet new members on the board  :).

 - Reduce your reliance on facts as the main basis for understanding. Emotions are much more important than you give them credit for. And since you appreciate facts: Work on your understanding of emotions and consider their weight in steering behavior and decision making. Educate yourself about the underlying facts. E.g. look at emotions and advertising or decision making.

 - Focus more on exploring and perceiving and tune down judgment of others. This makes you not only less likely to JADE but also will weaken your inner critic and improve your self esteem.

 - Accept that you will JADE at times and that is ok too. Forgive others and yourself.


Well you were getting defensive so you are not totally insensitive. PwBPD are on the other hand experts to get under our skin. Fact is we all are to a degree sensitive and this sensitivity lets us experience emotions and guides us. Listening and understanding better your own emotions can also help you with validation.

The fact that you put yourself out here and ask for help is also a sign that you are not super sensitive and are open for feedback  |iiii

Keep going  

Thank you for your effort to go into what I all said here!

I was trying to do SET with validation in it, that's part of SET. I read that starting with I can feel harsh to them, I forgot about it. But I also read I should put her demonstrated feelings into words and not to tell her how she feels. I understand this because what do I know right? It would annoy me. That's why I said 'I saw'.

It's true I tend to explain and defend. It's hard not to when attacked. I agree I shouldn't. But sometimes I have to explain. I told her I will message you about what happened tomorrow, I didn't, should I not explain to her why I am later? (because my SET is still not perfect, I don't want to invalidate her again. So not because to give her space, that would be lying I don't want to do that.)

And I assumed she feels not good enough (everyone would come to the conclusion with all she said), she said 'if you critise you friends you might critise me'. Can I still tell her 'feeling not good enough is hurting', when I assumed it? She felt negativity which she didn't needed right now, that's what she said aswell. (it seemed she blamed it all on me while she accused me and attacked me for things I'm not)

Thanks for the example about the good girl thing, it would have went that way wasn't it that I was triggered.

So I have to validate her feeling not a thought she might have, and I should ask her how she feels. She feels negativity, should I ask her how that makes her feel?

How to start SET when you don't know how she feels? Should I say this: "I see you are angry, and I understand how you can get mad at me," "How frustrating this must be for you."? I got that from this site www.BPD.about.com/od/forfriendsandfamily/a/SET.htm (http://www.BPD.about.com/od/forfriendsandfamily/a/SET.htm)

Further more on that site it says the truth statement is usually responding to a difficult demand the BPD asks of you. What is my friends demand? I change myself?

I really don't know my thruth anymore. It's too much for me now. I can't this set thing or validating thing fck it all I give up  I try so hard but everytime I do it wrong

(I find pornographic a pornographic word you people whom are scared of something natural sorry guys I am not allowed to express myself here that crackes me up being fcking sensored on a ffingsite where people tell eachother to respect boundaries what the heck)

I was so frustrated last night, all my night terrors are coming back in moments like these

I still want to try though, I never give up, and in the end the positive will always come to surface with me again. She sended me a message yesterday. I don't want to post it here due to privacy. I want to send her message along with what I want to say to her, to the ones whom are interested in helping me. Is that ok?

Nope, you simply tell her that she is down and she is showing it in her all actions.

Validation is often about grabbing the proverbial elephant in the room by its horns.

Argh I feel like an idiot now. I've finally sended my message which I wanted to do sooner (but was scared to do it wrong again that we got both hurt again). But you were right! I should've talked less, I was trying to respond to two things her new message and what happened earlier. I kept it brief but I feel like not brief enough... .I hope she thinks I mean what I say! Now I sound so distant like a shrink!  

I only know whats right when I have said or done it already, only then I can feel how is best to respond because it gets real i suppose

Issy,

You raise my question/issue to an0ught.


Validation, as described by an0ught, feels so much like playing the role of my wife's psychiatrist ... .a role I do not feel equipped to play nor even want to. Where does my resistance stem from? Why, in general, is validation so hard to do for so many of us? Our minds are active, and as we receive information we process it, filter it and use it in ways that make sense to us. I feel like with validation, I am supposed to receive information and mirror it back to my wife. How is that not a form of walking on eggshells, in which I am removing all traces of myself from the atmosphere?

In buddhism, it is taught to take in the discomfort, unease, or agitation caused by our afflicted states of mind and send out that which brings us happiness and joy ... .first to ourselves but then radiating outward to encompass those we love, those we are neutral toward and those that cause us harm. It is a way of remaining receptive and open to the situations that we find ourselves in without becoming rigid and fixed. I feel that with validation, even the aspiration to mean well, to do well, must be removed or risk invalidating the pwBPD. An0ught has stated in the past that this is not harmful to us, it's all about the pwBPD, but I don't know sometimes. It may be very effective, but in the long run, is it all that good for us?

My wife's psychiatrist does this because she is trained in this profession, and she is paid. And she has a whole life outside of my wife's life. Ugh. I just have a lot of resistance to being a counselor for my wife. Stuck.