BPDFamily.com

Forgive me for a bit of a narrative... .

So my uBPDw & I were discussing the day... .She talks on the phone a lot, I'll talk to family a couple times a month.  I talked to my sister that day, which makes my w anxious, because she doesn't know *everything* we talk about... .(her emphasis... .it's not like we keep secrets from her... .)

As I make the point that yes, I have never guaranteed I'd share everything with her, she went off the deep end.  I gave her the example if one of her kids (my step-kids) approached her and said they wanted to talk to her about something, but they didn't want her to tell me about it, that I would understand. 

Right or Wrong, that's my opinion. 

She then starts to try and outline any and all situations, any and all people where I might not share what someone has told me.  She gets to non-family females, and I tell her I would tell them that I couldn't guarantee I wouldn't share it with my w, but since we were way down the hypothetical road I'm not going to commit to what specifically I may or may not share.

My w replies:

   1. If I shared a 'secret' with another woman, she's done... .that's as bad as adultery and she's out.

   2. She wanted me to promise I'd let her know if that situation occurred, and I'd tell her I had the conversation that I wasn't sharing 100%.

OK, I think #1 is bogus.  So I told her I'd agree to #2 if she promised she wouldn't hound me endlessly regarding what I wasn't sharing.  After a few back and forth (she wouldn't promise that, because after all she'd be gone... .).  She finally uttered the words she wouldn't hound me so I promised I'd tell her.

I realize it's highly unlikely anything like this will ever happen.

But my question is, what about BPD brought peace to her mind when I told her I would let her know if I had a conversation where I wasn't sharing 100% of what was said?  If she truly believes she'd be gone, why did her anxiety level decrease when I finally told her I'd let her know if it happened?

This reminds me of a friend I had once. His gf always was checking on him, calling him every 30 minutes. If he didn't answer she freaked out, he was continuously chatting with her. One time we had a break we went for a lunch she called him, then she thought he was with an another girl and she wanted to talk to me. He gave me his phone and she asked me if there are any girls with us   She had all of his passwords, she even took over his Facebook account. As time passed by other people started to notice that his girlfriend always controlled him, many guys never understood why he accepted that kind of behavior? One time she told me if he's talking to an another girl please let me know. That's just wrong, you can't stay with a person like that. This reminds me of your situation.

You're an adult you have your own life, she doesn't own you. If you're aware that she's a BPD I'm amazed you have accepted all that behavior from her. In my opinion I really think you can get better than someone who wants the ultimate control, I guess a person like that isn't really ready for a relationship.

But what about her? Is she going to tell you everything too? Or is this just a one direction rule only?

What prompted this discussion?

I don't think it is realistic to share 100% of everything with a spouse. That is way too enmeshed/weird for my tastes. I know how easy it is to go down that road though. I know there was a period of time when I felt like I had no life and no privacy because somebody was wanting to know what I was doing at all times. At one time, it felt like I couldn't even go to the bathroom without permission. That wasn't the case but that is how I felt.

A couple of things. . .

In the future, try not to get involved in discussing hypothetical situations. Nothing good will come of them. It sets up a situation where you are put in a position to find a hypothetical answer that will soothe them. There was a situation not too long ago where my husband and I started down the path of hypotheticals. Once I realized what was happening, I clearly stated, "I refuse to discuss hypotheticals with you." I think it took a couple of times of me repeating that I did not want to discuss hypotheticals.

Does she expect you to tell her if you talk to a female check out person at the grocery store?

You are an adult. You are going to interact with females in the course of a day. Where can YOU draw the line with this? I think it might be helpful if you figured out a boundary that you can set around something like this.

I had the exact same scenario play out with uBPDw in the early days, before I upped my game. It must be a BPD thing along with assuming you're having an affair with any woman you exchange two words with in the street.

Anyway, based on my experience you're over hopeful to assume that it won't happen again. My approach was to be ever vigilant of the potential to arouse the "secret keeping" beast. This means doing things like : not having conversations with potential secret-keepes, or having said conversations in full earshot of pwBPD (and being ok with them listening to your side of the conversation, and also the need to debunk their assumptions about what the other person said for the next hour after the call ends... .). It means being able to reel off in detail everything that transpired in a conversation you had in the recent past with someone when interrogated by pwBPD, and sound convincing like you're not hiding anything. It means being very careful about what you say to anyone, playing forward in your mind constantly how what you're saying might get back to pwBPD and how they might over-react to hearing it.

Uggh, yeah I don't really have an solution. It's a royal pain.

This didn't work for me. I had to put boundaries in place to protect myself.

I remember an incident where I was talking to my mom about something. It was my mom for crying out loud. I don't even remember what was said. I just remember that my husband interjected and got mad. He had no idea what the other side of the conversation was. All he heard was my side and something that I said made him made. He hit the wall in the bedroom and went to cussing. He thought we were talking about him. I think I did mention him but what I mentioned was NOT what he was thinking it was.

I have gotten in the habit of NOT talking to anyone on the phone around my husband. I tend to make all of my calls when he is at work. I will occasionally talk to my brother on the phone on the weekends but I go on the porch and I make sure to keep it pretty mundane.

I have a right to talk to people and I have a right to NOT be interrogated about everything that I do.

There is no way to be convincing that you aren't hiding anything. If you are too convincing, then that is an indication of hiding something. If you are not convincing enough, then you are hiding something.

It is best to NOT get involved in this kind of stuff. Set boundaries but don't try to walk on eggshells and feed their need for information about everything that you are doing.

I get the same thing from my uBPDw, and I don't have a good solution.

It came to the point where I would take notes with a pen and paper while talking with my mother on the phone so I could remember and tell uBPDw later what was said during the conversation . I don't do that anymore.

A line that I frequently get from uBPDw is that "I would be able to trust you if you would be totally open and honest with me", which I do not understand because the only thing in my entire universe that she does not know about is that I post on this forum occasionally.  *) 

At various times she has elaborated that she wants to know 100% of everything that happens in my day and 100% of every conversation I have with anyone.  I have explained that my day-to-day existence is so boring that I'm not willing to re-hash every second of it when I get home at the end of the day and so that is something she will not be getting from me.  She found this less than satisfactory, and that's probably why I still get the bogus line about me being totally open and honest.

I think the driver here is lack of object constancy and black-and-white thinking in the person with BPD. 

I have also done the snarky, sarcastic thing where I have sat down and said, "Hmm, let me see, what did I do today? Well, I woke up. My butt itched so I scratched. Then I went to the bathroom. I have had horrible gas today. I let out some really nasty ones today. The kids weren't too happy about that." And I would go on like that in excruciatingly painful details about what I ate, my bodily functions, and all sorts of other minutiae. It was a bit juvenile on my part but I think it made the point that asking me to recount every friggin' detail of my day was a bit ridiculous.

He would get mad and say, "That's NOT what I meant." I would respond with, "Well, what DO you want? My days are pretty boring. I get up. I take care of the house. I work with the kids. I talk to mom. I talk to you and maybe a friend or two but that is it. If anything exciting or unusual happens, I will tell you."

VOC!  lol lol lol

That is hysterical. You really went "there" with the full disclosure thing! That'll teach him to ask you to share everything. Never thought about this before. I can honestly say I've never felt the need to share my bowel movements - with anyone! Does this make me "secretive"? Can't say I'd want to hear all about his either... although he's all too willing to share that with me   Some omissions are a-ok with me. There's sharing, then there's that!

Luckily mine only asks a generic "how was your day?", then it's like he's waiting for me to shut up so he can get to his turn. I just get him there quicker now and avoid the potential disaster of over-sharing something that could trigger him: "My day was fine <insert one or two interesting things that happened>... hey, tell me about YOUR day honey!" This way, all my secrets and bowel movements are safely kept.   

Yes, I went there. He would ask me about my day and I would give a generic answer. He would keep asking. He would ask if I talked to my mom or if I did this or if I did that. He wouldn't stop. It was like no answer that I could give was sufficient. No amount of information was enough. So, I took it upon myself to give him what he wanted in such a way that he no longer wanted it. 

There was a period of time where I was really frustrated because I couldn't get much accomplished during the day because of how often he would call or message me. I would spend my days trying to take care of a house and the kids and such and he would continually interrupt and would then come home and want me to give him a detailed account.

All of that has changed and he is now okay with me giving a generic answer with just the highlights and maybe a report about the kids and what they did for the day. Things have come a long way around here. If I don't answer the phone, he doesn't freak out any more. If I don't give him a detailed account of my day, he is now okay with that. It has been a process and I have had to claim my right to privacy. I think one of the things that I told him was, "I had more freedom and more privacy as a kid than I do now. I feel like I live in a prison."

Ugh. I wonder where this comes from? Fear? Insecurity? Mistrust? Why would anyone want a full accounting of anyone's day, or to know their conversations verbatim? I don't need to know all about his day, I'd just rather he do more of the sharing. Any time I over-share with too many details, there's always a chance something inside his head will get stuck on one irrelevant detail and spin off from there.

One of the strongest characteristics of BPD is fear of abandonment. They " need " fidelity. They "need" total honesty. Both are control instruments to avoid being blindsided by a partner or spouse who abandons them. They know they're "impossible to live with."

My wife forbids me to go to counseling and talk about her. Says "I'm a very private person."

What's going on in my opinion is that she doesn't want a professional confirming my belief that she has mental/emotional problems, and therefore have a higher probability of loosing me.

I can not make a commitment that I won't leave her because I might if she continues to make me miserable. And I won't stop talking about her and our relationship because triangulating with a counselor, or close friend is needed for me to keep my balance/sanity and the ability to stay in the relationship. Theo

pwBPD are afraid of the unknowns, it creates great anxiety.

Total honesty is an alien concept to them as they retell things for effect and hence assume others do to as that is their "normal". This condemns them to life deviod of absolute trust of and suspicions of everyone.

Threats are merely a way of probing. As usual though  liberal use of threats has the opposite effect of causing others to hide the truth to avoid drama. Just another BPD trait of self sabotaging their own agenda.

This made me think of something my mother does, and then, considering the idea of projection, if she does it, then she could assume I am doing it too.

The idea of telling secrets about them with someone else as a betrayal.

The triangle is an immature configuration that stabilizes two people because they have a common "enemy". If they can bond over this, they don't look too closely at themselves.

My mother plays this out in many relationships, bonding with dad over her "terrible children". Trying to bond with me over a "terrible" sibling. She will often take one person aside and tell them a secret- and swear them to secrecy an then they have this common bond. Since she does this, I think she assumes that I do too, but I don't participate in this.

When we visit her, and we are all in a group, she tries get alone with one of the kids or my H and tell them some "secret" about me to try to intrude on our relationship and form a personal bond with them. Once this happens she then can paint me black. It has worked with her family and friends, but thankfully, my family is on to her. She is quite wily about this. She has even corralled my H into a corner with her, to ask him personal questions about me so they can share some "dirt".

In addition to all the reasons stated here, could it be possible that your wife assumes that when you are speaking to other women you are doing this as a means to bond with them?

As I have stated before though, constantly reassuring them and explaining yourself over nothing can reinforce their behavior of constantly checking on you. I think it is OK ( and even healthy) to not share absolutely everything spoken about with a spouse and if you are doing nothing wrong then there is nothing to defend.

Amen to this... .luckily... .this is gone from my r/s. 

I also don't take surveys from women's magazines anymore... .nothing good would come of that... .when my wife would hand me magazine and start asking questions.

FF

" Thieves always locks their doors "  (They assume everyone is a thief)

We all know pwBPD have a hard time with:

1. Telling the "Truth"

2. Supporting a friendship relationship without "Gossiping" or bad mouthing someone else.

3. Hypocrisy

4. Keeping promises

5. Enjoying the attention of others thru "Flirting"

6. Regulating their own social behavior

So they demand:

1. The truth from you.

2. Never... .ever... .talk about them to someone else.

3. You always do what they say... .forget about what they ":)o".

4. Corner you into "Making promises"... . God forbid you "slip"

5. NO FLIRTING... .or talking to anyone of the opposite sex

6. Give you major grief when you "Cut loose" a little in social situations.

"Thieves always lock their doors because they assume everyone is just like them"

They are also fiercely protective of their "world"... .God forbid if anyone was to ever "find out" about them... .

So they want to KNOW you are keeping their secret.

I think a lot of this has to do with insecurity, jealousy, abandonment fears, and poor self-esteem. 

My husband and I were talking this morning. This topic came up because we were both reveling in the fact that we have come such a long way in a short time. I offhandedly asked how come he used to be so insistent on knowing every little thing that I did in the course of the day. His response was, "I guess I was just looking for some kind of connection. I felt so disconnected from everyone and everything."

I asked "What changed besides me refusing to go there?"

Him: "When you stopped feeding it, I was forced to find other/better ways to connect."

(That isn't word for word but that is the gist of the conversation.)

Ooohm- you just described my FOO to a T. The biggest sectret in my family was mom. We were not allowed to say a word about her. She could not control me so she controlled all the other family members interactions with me. If they spoke to me they had to report every detail back to her.

In more recent years, my father was not allowed to have a private relationship with me. If I was home with him in another room she would walk in screaming. She listened in on the phone when I called him. If I dared say anything that upset her she would take it out on him. If I sent him a letter or e mail he showed it to her. she saw the e mails he sent me.

What is astounding to me is that so many family members on her side comply with this . If I say something to them- not about her- but if we speak within a few hours it is reported to her.

I do not have a private relationship with any of them as I know that they talk about me to her and they have their private relationship. Perhaps the most amusing thing about this is that they think I don't know this.

In this situation it is all about control and keeping secrets.

|iiii  

In my relationship I handle it as follows. Nope, I'm not telling everyone here that secret. I keep that private 


Seriously, some privacy is necessary. And over-sharing with a person who has a weak identity is driving enmeshment - resulting in a relationship where

  - boundaries have disappeared

  - feelings can't be attributed to one person

  - fear of abandonment is potentially explosive

  - rage is common

If we take a step back and think how we perceive other people then it is mainly through interaction with them and observing what is happening at their surface. Depending much on what they choose to share. That is ok - their choices shape our perception of them. Their choices are informed by their values. By observing a person making choices we can form an opinion on their values.

And now think about observing a person that makes no choices. Sharing everything. Can you still perceive that person? Is there a person? Does that person have values?


Or another view: Information is power. Over-sharing allows others to make decisions for us or at least lets others assume they can do that. Is the person we hand power mature enough to handle it?


Imho. respect needs to be restored in our relationships for them to work again. Some areas of our lives should be private. That goes for both sides. How can there be meaningful respect and trust when everything is constantly wide open?

OK, this is good, and close to my current situation... .

I screwed up years ago, told my exW that I'd pay for any insurance costs that resulted from a mistake I made if it ever came to the insurance company demanding payment (they never paid for anything... .so there wasn't anything to reimburse)... .dummy me when I forwarded the email to my W I deleted the section where I said I'd pay for my mistakes. 

4 years later my current W insists I put me ex first, and won't listen that today I would make the same decision, but my deleting that part of the email was 100% due to what I used to call the 'prime directive'... .i.e. do whatever it takes to get her to b*tch less.  Yes, that was dumb and gives her the power she craves, but I didn't know about BPD back then... .

We've had many conversations (including with a MC) that you can learn something about a person because of "what they choose to share".  So what boundry says I won't rehash a mistake I made 4 year ago, with a pwBPD having a problem with "if you won't share everything with me how can I learn to trust you?"

How can she show she trusts you if you are expected to share everything? There would be nothing left to trust you about.

This is classic BPD way of slanted and persuasive thinking. It leaves you trying to achieve something that she is incapable of demonstrating, through no apparent fault of her own as she will have no way of proving it.

Analogy:

Give me all your money and then I will show you I dont need to ask for money (cos you will have none left to give).