BPDFamily.com

For history of this lovely topic... .check out the link below.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=278473.0;all

Thanks to Waverider for using his amazing skills to distill this down to a couple words that we all understand.  It is/was (my wife's tactics) an act of terrorism.  

The "Reagan doctrine"... .and really the doctrine of the United States is that you don't negotiate with terrorists... .terrorists that give up their ways have been allowed back into the fold... .terrorists that don't are opposed... .and dealt with.

Still turning over in my mind how this relates to my "response" to this.  But "appeasement" does't seem to have ever been an effective government policy... .I can't think of any examples in bpdfamily where appeasement (giving in to unreasonable demands) of a person that displays BPD traits... .has worked.  In fact... .it usually fuels the fire.

More to come... .the hope is that you guys can help me sharpen and focus me on what matters... .so I don't get distracted by sideshows my wife will try to introduce.

FF

 

So... .one option... .most likely this is the nuclear option... but since we are describing terrorism... .

In a bit less than a week... .all of the family people (adults) that are involved in this (got the email) will be together.  It's possible to get them all in a room (not saying this is wise)... .and air this thing out.

My goal would be to shine the light on this and to ask for support in keeping private things private... .to not encourage or participate in my wife divulging my private conversations to others. 

And... .to take steps... .to avoid exposing me (calling my house) to conversations about which husband is the worst husband... desires other women the most... etc etc... .

This option would fit with my nature... .to shine the light on ridiculous behavior... .to push people to make a decision on right or wrong... .and to not hide. 

Put your cards on the table.

Note:  I'm not recommending this... or saying it is wise... .I think most of you guys have sense of who I am and how I think... .

There is also a dynamic that I don't want to "feed"... .  In the past I would "fight back"... protest... jade... .etc etc.

pwBPD seem to "get" something from these interactions.

If they don't "get" something... .they usually burn out over time.  If they get the opposite of what they are looking for (pain... instead of "pleasure"... .could that help snuff this out quicker? 

Most things I have been ignoring... or not reacting to.

Last big "email thing" was months ago... .maybe 6... .where my wife... sends me a naked picture of another woman.  I had a conversation with her after that to clarify that I didn't want that... .never again want that... .and that my values are not to look at or think about sexual things with other women.  She didn't take it well... .sort of stood her ground... .I misinterpreted... .etc etc. 

I clarified that there is no interpretation I can think of that would make me want my wife to provide me images of other women to consider... .don't do it... .

She stood ground.

So... .we went to MC.  I clarified the message... stayed a bit more on topic.  MC is woman.  My wife seemed mortified to be discussing this in front of her.  I would not let the topic drop until I heard the words come out of my wife's mouth that I do not want her to send me images of other women (paraphrasing).

This has not happened since... .and really... this is the first discussion about another woman since then.  Also find it interesting that she has not alleged anything sexual (used to be common and graphic... .before the "picture incident"... .

So... .I'll quit typing for now... .looking for reactions.

FF

Terrorism is something my mother does as her way of keeping power and control. Sadly, it stems from her own lack of self and sense of personal power. There is nothing anyone can do to change her behavior. She knows how hurtful it is, and this is why she does it.

Her targets are things that have meaning to us, things we are attached to emotionally, because her aim is to hurt and control. So anything is fair game- possessions, jobs, family, friends. She even threatens" if you don't do what I say I will break your ( possession) or call up your friends, or get your father angry at you. This was terrifying to us as a kid, and so we toed the line.

This tactic worked so well from my mother that all I could do to protect myself was keep what was important away from her and let go of what I could not control. This is hard to do when living with someone. However, you can do things to protect your job by getting a PO box for mail, locking your computer, getting a separate e mail for business ( she has this one so get a different one) and keeping your job info as private as possible.

The only explanation I thing I would have is this- that your wife has shown you what she is capable of, and so, you have reasons to protect your privacy.

My mom thrives on telling personal information about me to people. She has said so much to her FOO about me that isn't true that I don't have a real relationship with them. I had to let go of caring what they think about me.

My mom will say anything and everything. All I can do is not tell her things that are important, but she is constantly fishing. I don't say anything to her that I would not care if it was on the evening news.

If I were to be at a family gathering of my mother's FOO, I would be polite, cordial and distant. They have already heard so much junk about me, that they are faced with two world views: Mom's and mine. They would have to decide that one of us is crazy. They are already so loyal to each other that this choice is determined. I have to let it go.

(https://bpdfamily.com/sites/all/themes/theme875/images/drama-triangle.png)We all come to these boards to be centered and to get perspective.  

When we start using emotionally charged words like "rape" or "terrorism" or "vampire" we are moving far out of the realm of centering and perspective.

We are not hear to triangulate or create drama triangles. Drama triangles create fight, the parties get release from drama - not the resolution.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

The aspect of your wife sending your emails is very serious and needs to be dealt with in a significant way - an effective way.

Why don't we drop the hyperbole and go forward with a more balanced and centered approach.   *)

I agree we should stay off the victim/drama triangle. The term I think was brought up as a description of the fear one can feel. Of course if we are in fear, it is our fear to deal with.

 

I agree... .is "bullying behavior"... or "threatening behavior" a better term.

Or... describe it as not being ok to say no.

If I say no... .my wife will (fill in the blank... with bad behavior)

I am much more interested in dealing with this in an effective way.

FF

No drama.  How about "email incident".  *)

Help me prepare for MC on Thursday to talk about "terrorism" issue ) the email incident.

Switching gears to problem solving... what are the bad act(s) here, in rank order, and why are they bad? Short and to the point... .

Example:

emailing the kids? #1 Parentification.

reading your email? Distant #2  Not respectful.

contacting your professional/personal female friend? 3# Embarrassing. Needed resource.

What is a value that you both hold as important that has been violated by each?

My experience has been exactly that of Notwendy. I too believe that your wife can and will "do anything and everything." That you can't control this. That you can't "shine a light" on it and thereby change it.

This seems to be something that people who've grown up with a parent like this know to their core. But we spouses often need years, or even decades, to accept this fully.

Will your wife really allow you to be a central figure in a close-knit community? How can you actually pull off something like that? Is it even possible to erect a wall of security and professionalism in this case?

Or do you need to let go of that dream? Could you use GI Bill education benefits to re-tool for a career that would be impervious to your wife's insecurities? (Database engineer? Paralegal? Accountant? Something not at all "sexy?"  

I hate to think of you spending more years in exhaustion and frustration. And I kind of tremble at the thought that you might actually land another leadership position. Because your wife is not growing any weaker or less driven to define and control you.

That outstanding recent post by babyducks. The one about "hemmed in ground." I think it's one for you to ponder before making any more decisions.  

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=278473.msg12635261#msg12635261

Totally disagree.

There IS a universal truth here.  BPD or not, it is UNACCEPTABLE for a person to snoop into a spouse's work correspondence.  It is even more UNACCEPTABLE to steal the e-mail and use it for their twisted, delusional purposes.  Was this a US government e-mail?  That is a FEDERAL OFFENSE.

This is no longer a walking on eggshells, boundaries / validation BPD issue.

I'm going to stay hard and long on this line:

If I was helping someone get a job, and their spouse e-mailed me a response to a protected e-mail (suggesting a breach of work environment security), I would tell the person, and the spouse that this was unethical behavior, and that I would no longer participate in helping get that person a job.

FF- this is a non-negotiable boundary.  Keep your wife out of your computer.  She is trying to, and WILL destroy your career.  If you are OK with this- quit your career before it is destroyed by her.  If you are not OK with this- verbalize this boundary as law, and leave if it is violated again.

You are a self admitted "public" figure- and from what it sounds like, trying to remain in government.  Your behavior is not becoming a government official.

You left open access to your computer which is used for business / career, and hence, government.  I would not vote for you because of this.  I would not hire you because of this.

If I was the recipient of an e-mail from your wife- an e-mail that was job related, and supposed to be private and password protected, not only would I withdraw support for you I would encourage my constituents to do the same.  You cannot be trusted with a government office, if you allow your wife access to your work related stuff.

I cannot believe we have lost sight of how dangerous this whole scenario is for OUR COUNTRY, by focusing on preserving FF's marriage.

What FF's wife did crossed many boundaries and, in my opinion, violated a universal truth.

Having said all of this, FF:  I am sorry that you are having to deal with all of this.  As I read your recent posts, I can see numerous similarities between your impression of your wife, and mine of my wife. So, I feel I can relate on a deeply personal level.  These behaviors are maddening, and we have to make tough choices about how to deal with behaviors that really challenge core values and beliefs about marriage, love, honesty and transparency.  Persons in occupational positions of "power" / leadership who are also in a relationship with a pwBPD have added grief, I believe, because though it is not a diagnostic criteria for the disorder, I believe that BPD also has similarities with oppositional-defiant disorder in respect to "problems relating to- / with- people of authority."  There is an unspoken (or at times, screaming) battle over the perceived inequality of power and their resistance to authority - even though your authority only goes into effect after you leave the home. I can totally relate to your struggles, and if we were together, I'd give you a hug and offer to take you out for a PRIME steak.  I'm really sorry for all of this. 

Surg_Bear

My first thought when I read this was, ":)on't say no. Live no. Make sure that you make it perfectly clear that you will NOT accept this kind of behavior."

I have a FOO that is a lot like Notwendy and KateCat have described. There is no discussing this stuff. Trying to shine a light on things is ineffective because it will likely be twisted.

I have found that there are some situations where you have to decide a course of action and make it clear that this is going to be your course of action. Since boundaries are there to protect YOU, there is no need to discuss. You live them.

When the last e-mail incidents occurred, did she ever share enough information to help you understand her reasoning?

You mentioned that you told her that there is no instance where you would be okay with her sending you racy pics of other women. Is there any instance where you can think of it being okay for her to get into your private email and do what she did?

I think this situation boils down to how you can protect yourself moving forward.

She has a history of not following through on things that are said in MC. What makes you think that this time will be different? I think it is really important to have realistic expectations.

I second this, and sadly concur with Surg-Bear's stark assessment of the career situation.

 

Couple things... .my wife acknowledges to me... .others... .and her family... .it is "common knowledge" that I am a different guy.

It has been long time since a "yelling incident" (on my part)... .or any sort of acting out.

It is part of the process of cleaning up my side of the street.  My wife can't "make me mad"... ."make me yell or act stupid".  I am in charge of my feelings and emotions... .nobody else.

In fact... .the acknowledge this the other day in our talk about the "email incident" (I like this term).

Other things that are different about me.  I rarely used to tell people no... .especially my wife.  That is common place now.  I am in charge of my boundaries and what I do.  I no longer over promise and under deliver. 

My goal is to do the opposite... .under promise and over deliver.

2

The password to my email has been an issue for about a year... little less.  She claims it was a "deal" about me moving back into the house... .that she would get unrestricted access.

There was no such deal.  I have been clear and unapologetic that I am in charge of my cyber security and privacy.  She has threatened all sorts of things if I don't give it up.

My offer on the table that I have said I would be happy to work with is that there be a trusted group of people that have access to my email... .and she can randomly go to them to gain read only access.  They will be in charge of making sure access is read only.

There is history here.  For a long time I did the "christian thing" from Biblical counseling where each party should have no secrets from each other... .complete access.  And... exactly this kind of thing happened... .things taken out of context... .rages... .double binds... .

So... .I have no problem with my wife monitoring me... .as long as my wife is being monitored as well.

How do I problem solve from there... .I have made the offer... .she has rejected it... and says only the password and unrestricted access solves it for her... nothing less.

My answer... .and my life... .is NO.

Hmmm... I'll cut this post here.  Thanks for help... .keep it coming...

FF

 

This was my private gmail account.  At this point in time... .it is/was the only email that I had

My .gov email was frozen because of termination (political thing).  County government... .not Federal.  I am very familiar with federal IT... .I was taking the county in the direction of better security... .eventual goal was "CAC" or "common access card" security to gain access.

My wife gained access to the ".org" server email (prior to .gov) and emailed several marriage counselors from there. 

That was when I slammed the door (so to speak) on any access at all.  She claimed (in and out of MC) that it was inadvertent... .in truth she is not technically savvy... .it is possible she bumbled her way into it... .but I doubt it.  Not provable.

This was about a year ago... probably a bit more.

My remedy was restricting access.

What I believe happened was I left a Chromebook logged in... and ran outside to handle a kid emergency/projects going on outside.  I intended to be outside for just a minute... .it went longer.  This is based on me looking at time emails were forwarded from my account to hers.

FF

FF, what are the bad acts here.  Can you spell them succinctly in some rank order.  I know what would concern me and in what order.  I know what some others would be concerned about.  With you, I only know that you're emotional and upset.

Truthfully - you seem more vested in the fight/drama than the solution.  I know that's hard to hear, and if that is where you need to be today, OK.

Maybe preparing for MC needs to wait a day or so.  *)

What do you think?

 

So... .there is some subterfuge here... .it is/was intentional.  I do not have any contact with previous department heads through their work email too dangerous for them.

That can be read by general public... .they are public records.  That means that political enemies can read them as well.

I am well aware of what kind of conversations constitute a public record (legally in my state) and don't go there in my private email.

Surg Bear brought up good points... .I think my comments have clarified the technicalities of the situation.

 

The "worst" thing is involving our kids.

This "habit" is not just email.

She will gather them... .from time to time and lecture them about why Daddy does this and that.  This is what Daddy thinks and cares about.    

So... .my number one answer... .that I am most upset about...

Is involving the kids... .lack of boundaries.


2nd issue is lack of respect for privacy or "my things".  This plays out in the email incident... and other things.  Such as:  I had several boxes of things from my office (my work office).  She comes in and starts going through them.  Says her intention is to consolidate them in one box.  

" I want to organize my own things... .so I know where things are.  Please leave them alone" (she doesn't speak and keeps looking)

"Please stop what you are doing... I am fine if you want to watch me organize my things... .if you want to be part of it.  I do not want you organizing my items for me... ."  She keeps going

"Stop what you are doing... "  She flings some items... .exclaims in a loud voice  "what is it you are hiding... .what is it that you don't want me to find... ." and stomps out of the room.

I see the same "attitude" on her part... .driving the behavior... .that she is entitled to snoop.  

In my world... privacy is not "hiding".

Last:  :)istant last... .is the desire to look... .or the looking.  I may be wrapping up 2 and 3 and need to separate them.

I can care less of she sees all of it... .someone needs to have a leash on her (that they can use) when she is doing it.

Not trying to be offensive... .but somehow if you guys can take my desire for a leash... .and translate that into problem solving... .that would be helpful.

I really don't care that she sees this stuff... .it is her actions after she "discovers" something... that bother me.

FF

 

So... .I don't "feel" emotional... .or looking for drama.  

I am most likely not the best judge of myself right now.  I'm leaning on you guys to help keep me productive.

I "feel" resolute... .

I "feel" like facing a bully on the school yard.  I mostly ignored them... .very different than running from them.

I stood up to several... .when I had had enough... .ended up punching a few in the nose.

Backing down leads nowhere good.

Drawing a line in the sand that I can't back down from is not smart.

I need help sorting those two statements out... .they both seem true to me... .and both seem applicable... .

FF

What can you realistically do about this? What was the result of asking her to stop or trying to get her to stop involving the kids?

Trying to make her stop this doesn't work. How is your relationship with your kids? Do your kids believe her or treat you differently based on the stuff that she tells them? Do you have a relationship with your kids that is separate from her?


How realistic is this given what you know? How realistic is this given her past and present behavior?


I think solving this problem will require you to stop focusing on her and what she is or isn't doing. It isn't realistic to look for solutions that she is going to willingly participate in on a consistent basis. What can YOU do differently moving forward?


I think this kind of begs the question a bit. You can't trust her to not react. You can't trust her to not make mountains out of molehills. Lock down access for your safety. This is playing into the circular stuff where she demands access. You give it to her. She reacts. You lock down access. She accuses you of hiding things and so it goes. What do you think will protect YOU?

Focus.  Great.

Parental alienation.  

You best course of action is with the kids.  This is a drama triangle.  She is putting them in the role between the two of you.

How are they as rescuers?  Do they buy into her victim story? Take up for her?  A lot?  Not at all?  Somewhere in between?

Not sure about rescuers... .I don't see them as that.  Right now... they lay low and avoid work... .until she flips out... .yells and screams... .then... .they know they have to do it.  Or... .if one of us stands over them... .they will do it... .

I don't know if they buy it... .I don't ask... .

The definitely do not "take up for her"... .I don't ask them to "make rulings"... .or decide. 

To me... .the kids seemed "quieter" yesterday.  I attempted to engage each of them... .to be warm... .ask about their day... what is on their mind... .give pats on the back.  I'm assuming their quietness is part of the emails... .but... I'm assuming.

FF

Should I use these terms in MC. 

I need to be careful that I don't come of as "I don't do this... .so you shouldn't"

Do I restrict this to "email incident" or try to bring in "pattern of behavior".

Gut reaction:  Email incident is fresh and relevant... .stick with that.  I'm open to other ideas and suggestions.

FF

The persecutor doesn't do this, the victim does.



Good. Do you have any sense of how much each of them buy into these things (without asking). Do any of them see you as not treating their mom properly.

Some Lessons to help (going forward)in this thread... .

In additional to all the PAS material here, there is a section toward the end of the article about how to not be drawn into being seen as the Persecutor. It might be helpful to read as part of this tactics discussion.

In short, don't take an responsive action that a persecutor would take.  Change the dynamics.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

(https://bpdfamily.com/sites/all/themes/theme875/images/winner-triangle.png)

One correction... .she took access. 

Granted... .I did not protect it good enough... .my fault.

I gave her access willingly for a protracted period of time... .ended over a year ago.  I did this  "once"... she had access for over a year... .

I took it back. 

Again... .yes... .my fault for leaving a chink in armor.

That is over... .

FF

I don't think they do buy into it.  I think they are tired of the drama and fighting.  They have all experienced the same accusations... .(publicly)... .that I have.  So... .wife is loud and saying such and such kid is doing something to "make her mad" and that she knows "why" they are doing this that or the other.

Then kids launch into JADE fest... .protesting... it escalates.  I've attempted to introduce the idea of not jading... .but as a life lesson... not as a "response to mommy".





I don't think so... .anymore.  They have seen me behave and respond badly to her in the past.  I don't act that way anymore.

Ashamed to say it... .but I'm a big guy... .I have a loud voice... .when I would get tired of listening to her crap... .I could drown out her voice with mine... .it worked for the short term solution... .bad long term.

I suspect several of them wonder "why I put up with it".

Her sister is divorced and they see their cousins as having fund with mommy... .and then going to have fun with daddy... .

Their cousins have no accountability... .because each parent fears being "the heavy"... .times when they have tried to be the heavy... .the kids pitched a fit... said they didn't feel safe with "the heavy"... .counselors say kids need to feel safe... .so... .they get to be lazy... safe kids... that play lots of video games... .and barely eek by in school.

Sorry for the speech... .I love them to death... .I have seen how divorce with a "BPDish" woman in the picture affects kids... .

It is far worse... .far worse... than what has happened... .up until this point... .with my kids.

I want to make sure my actions... .drive things in the right direction... .as much as I can.

FF

As I read the triangles that Skip posted, I began wondering if you could reframe what you are saying to fit that.

So, what are your needs? What do you need that she violated?

What are your specific struggles?

What can you do to show her that you are listening to her concerns?

Also, I get the sense that you don't feel safe in the relationship because you can't trust her to follow through and you can't trust her to not mess with your computer when you step away for a minute. That reminded me of a thread that I started a couple of months ago called, "It's not my partner's responsibility to make me feel safe."

I went back and found that thread because I remembered that you told me so good stuff.

This message in particular from you: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=276825.msg12621068#msg12621068


In this situation, do you feel that she was being a jerk?

How can you stand up for yourself properly while shrugging it off AND stating your truth?

Yes... .I like the term "bully" better... .but... yes.

Interesting... .I believe that I may be changing my priority list after reading the triangle thing a big...

FF

 

Not sure if this changes "my priorities... " or if it changes may "tactics".

After reading the triangle thing... .if each of us would be responsible for our own feelings... .that should solve it.

A person that is responsible for their own feelings doesn't involve the kids.

If I focus on getting the kids out of it... .and "win" ... .that is great.  If she adds in a couple more relatives to compare notes with about who has a worse husband... .her behavior to the kids will have changed... .but not her outlook on life.

I used to involve others.  Her sisters ex was one... .closest thing I had to a brother.  We still talk about parenting... .but rarely mention my marriage... .in any context.  I definitely don't vent.or b$tch to him.

But... .

Do I express my desire to be in a r/s where each party is responsible for their own feelings as my number 1 issue in MC... and let things flow from there... .?

She still operates under the rules where people "make" her feel things... and "do" things... .

   

FF

Help me understand why you like the term bully so much?

This might be nitpicking. It is a thought that I had. The word bully paints a picture of your wife being a meany that is pushing people around. Bullies typically have victims. Are you subconsciously trying to hang on to the victim role by continuing to describe her as a bully?

I think it might be helpful to keep things more focused on you.

'I will be responsible for MY feelings.' In this incident, you have feelings about the situation. They are your feelings. Your wife did some crappy stuff. Own that you are upset about it. State it clearly and sincerely without JADEing.

'I will not take responsibility for other people's feelings.' It is quite likely that your wife will continue to make statements like you make her mad or similar statements. You can't change really change that. All you can do is try to figure out how to respond when your wife tries to blame you for her feelings. Could the MC help you navigate that?

I think you do need to talk to the kids since she involved them.  I would personally recommend the following message:

• Issues between mom and dad should stay between mom and dad.



• You don't normally comment on such things, because it needs to stay between mom and dad.



• If they are ever brought into the middle of something and want to ask you a question, you would be happy to answer their question.

  (response to question about wanting to be a victim... )

I don't think so... but... interesting point.

I'm a words guy... .language matters... especially when I am trying to express something precious to me.

Jerk... .to me is an uncaring azz... .runs over people without thought or care...  Jerks don't want to use people to accomplish things... .they just run over them on the way to what they do care about.  

All of this is just my opinion

Bully... .Someone who uses aggressive tactics to get someone else to "feel" a certain way... .or do a certain thing.  Instead of doing something for themselves... .they are trying to manipulate or coerce others into solving something for them.  I will "bully" you until you (fill in blank)

I don't see myself as a victim... .I have in the past... .have I gotten all of that out of my system... .most likely will work on that for rest of my life.

Realistically looking at your life and realizing you are in sucky situation... .is not being a victim.

Naval Aviators are trained to make the best of out what they are dealt... .and we never give up... .pulling ejection handle is not giving up... .you live to fly and fight another day.  Sometimes you don't have a handle.  Most of my life was spent flying an airplane without a reliable way to bail out.  Theoretically possible... .more have tried and failed... .than have tried and made it out.

So... .when something goes down it the airplane... .I had the idea that I had the rest of my life to figure it out... .

That attitude is one that is part of me... .I'm gonna figure this thing out... .if it takes the rest of my life... .

ehh... .did I answer the question... .or make a speech... .

There have been times in our marriage where we were equals... where we complimented each other... .and were more effective as a together unit... .than as individuals.  I hope and believe we will get back to something like that... .

So... .I have no desire... .to remain stuck here... .I really do want peace and tranquility.

FF

Yes.  You feel like a victim.   :)

This is almost word for word of what not to do from the article.


Stop labeling her.  Meany, terrorist, monster, bully are all victims terms.  All drama words.

Here's a map of the drama so far.

Wife sees email

Triangle Stage 1:

Prosecutor: FF

Victim: Wife

Counter action: Circulate emails - triangulated

Triangle Stage 2:

Prosecutor: FF

Victim: Wife

Rescuer: Children/Sister

Actions: FF reacts

Triangle Stage 3:

Prosecutor: Wife

Victim: FF

______________

Next Action: In a drama triangle, the worst next action is to do something to make your wife feel like a victim and the rescuers sympathetic to her.

Triangle Stage 4:

Prosecutor: FF

Victim: Wife

Rescuer: Children/Sister

Don't try to win the victim spot - covert your persecutor role to the assertive role and move to a caring role with the kids.

Again, since this is about the kids, shift your actions to seem sensible, mature, sound to them. With your wife, you can just take the assertive action of quietly locking down the fort. 

You still have to deal with the "opposite sex relationship" issue with her as per your other thread.

Hi FF,

One of the basic principles developed by the National Education Alliance for BPD (in a program called Family Connections) is: family members need to interpret things in the most benign way possible.

Benign: Your wife forwarded emails to the kids that may be hard for them to understand.

Your wife is handicapped in her ability to tolerate stress in relationships. Even when crises arise, there is likely only one of you who is capable of creating a cool, calm environment. That's you.

"I can see that I've hurt you and I'm sorry" tells her that you accept and acknowledge she feels hurt. She is BPD and intensely afraid that you will leave for another woman. Emailing benign messages to a female coworker, even without innuendos, will be hard for her. Accepting this is part of being in a relationship with her.

Parentification of the kids and any kind of parental alienation is also part of being in a relationship with her. She seeks validation from the kids (a role reversal of the normal parent-child role). She will not validate how the kids feel -- that role falls to you.

(Raising emotionally resilient kids (Lesson 5) and parental alienation (Lesson 6) on the Coparenting board).

Start small and focus on validation. "Mom forwarded an email to you. How did you feel about it?" Do not try to divide them and win them over. Let them say how they feel. There is no one absolute truth on any of this -- they are entitled to feel how they feel. It may surprise you how clearly they see what's going on. "Mom wants dad to look bad."

Interesting... .I'm listening... .

I don't agree... .but I want to listen... .understand.

A "victim" to me is someone that is helpless... .the world pushes them around... .they are not responsible  for their choices because of the world. 

I don't feel that way at all... .I have avenues I can take... things that may make the situation more tolerable... .even if my wife doesn't play along.  or even it my wife "ups" the ante.

So... .not sure if we are using different definitions.

OK... .I'm listening... .

FF

**crossed with three posts so may be repeating the same advice/outlook.

This is a pretty frustrating situation and it seems like the issues involved are getting all muddled up. That happens in parenting relationships and it's important to dissect which is which (what Skip is suggesting you do).

My first piece of advice is to stop the catastrophic language. "Terrorism" and "bullying" will keep in you in a mindset that is counterproductive to resolution involving two people in a relationship. You are a husband and wife, not two countries at war or even a divorced couple unwilling to appease. You're on the same team, FF.  

I feel like your parenting values are different and the boundaries in the relationship are not well established. That happens a lot in marriages with children.  (And Remember boundaries are to help keep us connected, not to control the other person)

You have a wife who crossed [what as I see as a] blurry line and looked at your personal email. She saw a conversation with another woman and her mind ran wild. She's insecure. She acted poorly (forwarded the email to the kids) but at the core is a valid concern and feeling on your wife's part. Validating her fear is a pretty good first step to resolution in the marriage.

It is an overreaction to what she saw. It's tough being the more grounded partner, but it's up to you to bring this back to reality. Not make matters worse.    

Your primary concern is the involvement of the kids.

What is your core issue here? That you'll look bad to the kids? Or that the kids not be burdened with relationship issues involving their parents?

We are parents. We are relationship partners. One usually has very little to do with the other. If we fail at being a relationship partner, it does not ever change our feelings or roles as a parent. That, my friend, is unwavering. That is all a child ever needs to know. :)

It's important to uphold your own [parenting] values in this even if when it's giving space to the other parent to have different [parenting] values. Our own parenting comes in when you let the kids know that there is no reason for them to be involved if they don't want to be. That they never have to take sides. They usually would prefer not to be involved. They just want to love their parents.

So don't explain your side of events. Don't tell the kids that the other parent shouldn't be involving them (because that's your own bashing of their parent). Be their Dad - ask them if they're OK and if they need anything from you.

Then perhaps bring in the neutral third party to help perhaps establish clearer boundaries in this. When it comes to your opposite sex relationships and transparency in your marriage (email passwords). Talk about the children's needs being important and that it might be pretty stressful for them to have to deal with their parents relationship issues when they're busy dealing with other things.

Sorry if we missed a post... this was my original answer... .

My primary concern is that we are a family where people don't own their own emotions... .

After I read the triangle article... .this became my new #1.  However... .I may be confusing how to go about addressing the problem... .and what I'm concerned about... .not sure.

FF

DG and I are saying the same thing.

Your role is to validate how the kids feel if your #1 priority is their involvement in this. They don't want to be put in a position to judge you, they want their dad to be their dad. The natural parent-child role is that you validate them. Not vice versa. It's taxing to kids to be put in the position of validating the parent, and they get plenty of that from mom.

They don't care how it comes to pass that they have to validate your wife. Or you.

They want to feel heard and know that someone accepts and acknowledges what feels real to them.

This is a hall pass to help you exit the drama triangle.

Its a noble goal, but its also rescuing.

Be caring, but don't overstep. We do not want to let our fears, obligation and guilt to control us or allow us to be manipulated into taking care of another person when it really isn't healthy to do so. Instead of being the Rescuer and doing the thinking, taking the lead, doing more than our share, doing more than is asked of us -  simply be a supportive, empathetic listener and provide reflection, coaching, and assistance if the person asks and is taking the lead themselves. It is important to recognize the other person as an equal (not one-down) and give the other person the respect of letting them take care of themselves, solve their own problems, and deal with their feelings as they choose. Remember, the rescuer has the most pivotal position on the drama triangle - you are in the strongest position, at least initially, to redirect the dynamic into healthy territory.

Your initial focus is more clear - workable.

Parental Alienation: Be a caring, available dad. Don't make any persecutor moves. Don't get drawn in.

Computer security:  Quietly lock it all down.  Clearly, unequivocally and constructively assert your needs here*

Inappropriate opposite sex relationship:  Relook your co-values/boundaries with the MC

* Instead of the actions of the Persecutor, who blame and punish - give up trying to force or manipulate others to do what you want. Take on the new behaviors of "doing" and "asserting". Ask for what we want. Say no for what you don't want. Give constructive feedback. Initiate negotiations. Take positive action.

What are the avenues that you can take?

The avenue that I have seen you suggest is to address a terrorist issue in MC. I haven't seen you propose (I may have missed something) any possible solutions other than stuff like:

Help me find a way to put a leash on my wife

Help me communicate stuff to my wife

What are concrete things that YOU can do that do not involve having words with your wife? What concrete things can YOU do to create a team atmosphere?

If your primary concern is that you are a family of people that don't own their emotions, then what would be the logical first step? I think you have told me to lead by example on quite a few different occasions.

You can't control whether or not other people own their own emotions. Yes, you are part of a family. A family is made up of unique individuals and each of those individuals is going to handle their emotions in their own way. You can't make them own their emotions. You can own yours and try to communicate them and own them to set an example.

What I am hearing is, "Things would be better if everyone would own their emotions." It does come across that you are a victim of others emotions.

Would it be possible to go back and read some of your posts as though they were written by somebody other than you? What advice would you give me or somebody else if I had posted the same stuff that you have been posting?

*** crossed again


Well, you can only control you. You've assessed that you'll have to be the emotionally mature partner who helps in the caretaking of the less emotionally mature person. That means you lead the way. You stop engaging in the drama. You get off the drama triangle.

My candid observation from where I'm standing?

Your family lacks communication skills.  

Gottman suggests that couples usually experience the same disagreements over and over again throughout the duration of the marriage. It's not so much about resolving the issues as it is how you recover from the arguments/disagreements is what determines the success of the marriage. It's not about agreeing. It's about agreeing to disagree.

You'll probably experience this same situation, painted up differently 6 months from now. You may look at a woman for 5 seconds too long, talk to a new female neighbor, make a facial expression to an attractive actress on tv, or whatever. So, it's more about learning to develop a safe space where your wife can be jealous and insecure and where you can establish that you're still a man living in a world where other women exist --- and who loves his wife very much. That involves communication between both of you that helps you recover from the situation. It just gets a little trickier when she's prone to BPD coping skills (and overreacting).      

 

OK... .I'm listening... .still... .so "diagnosing" the problem... .pushing for everyone to keep their own emotions... to themselves... .is overstepping my bounds?  Going into rescuing territory?

FF

I personally think it is better to focus on the concrete actions, not the underlying issues - let the MC handle that.  So I think your first list was better:

1.  Involving kids in a parental dispute

2.  Violating your privacy

3.  Contacting third parties about your marital dispute

Basically, what boundaries did she violate?

I think it is overstepping. The reason is that you are trying to tell other people what to do with their emotions. You are responsible for YOUR emotions, not your wife's emotions.

I don't know if it is rescuing. It comes across a bit as having the answers rather than being open to hearing other possibilities.

Owning ones emotions is very difficult. Some people blame them on others. Some people completely deny them. Some people try to find distractions so that they don't have to deal with their emotions.

Is it possible that focusing on them and whether or not they own their emotions is distracting you from looking at what you are feeling about this situation? If you stay involved in the triangle and continue to focus on whether or not other people are owning their emotions, then that lets you off the hook a bit. Forget about their emotions for a minute. . .

This is a workable list... .

Hi ff, below is taken from Skip, for me this covers in a nut shell what you can do to deescalate and diffuse this email situation in a straight forward way that aims to achieve a positive outcome for you all.

Parental Alienation: Be a caring, available dad. Don't make any persecutor moves. Don't get drawn in.

Computer security:  Quietly lock it all down.  Clearly, unequivocally and constructively assert your needs here*

Inappropriate opposite sex relationship:  Relook your co-values/boundaries with the MC

* Instead of the actions of the Persecutor, who blame and punish - give up trying to force or manipulate others to do what you want. Take on the new behaviors of "doing" and "asserting". Ask for what we want. Say no for what you don't want. Give constructive feedback. Initiate negotiations. Take positive action.

I posted a while ago that I thought your wife has been trying to communicate 'something' to you for a while now. She has been unhappy and disgruntled for quite some period of time. To me she sounds worried and insecure. There has been some significant changes in your household over recent months that have impacted upon your roles both as parents and partners.

I just cross posted with VOC and it made me wonder how you feel about the changes that have taken place with your career at this point in your life and does keeping the focus on your wife's behaviour allow you to avoid focusing on what is going on for you ?

I agree... what she says she is unhappy about... .are mainly things I have said no to.

then... .she takes my no... and "adds to what it means"

I will not be on a chore chart... .means... .

I won't do chores at home

I won't do chores how she tells me... .means... I won't do chores at home.

Her choice to interpret things how she wishes... .I have clearly stated my message... .and... .the rest is up to her.

FF

formflier,

I think this is starting to get confusing for the rest of us here.

Is this about chore charts? Your wife's triangulating with others? The kids involvement in parenting issues? Boundary issues?  

Do you just want to vent/complain? Feel heard?

We want to help. It's hard to do when you seem to be so engulfed in keeping the drama/conflict alive.

This is a good observation/question:


---DG

All of these are issues... .non are solved... .even started to be addressed... .from my point of view... .my wife keeps piling on... .new issue... after new issue

Ask me a couple days ago what I care about... my answer would have been totally different. 

She sent the emails... .my phone rings at home... .and my wife and her aunt are in the middle of a full on session of talking about how to "unload" on their husbands... .how they know what we think... .how we desire other women... .and how they need to "handle" us... .

It could be a put on... .it could be a big mistake and I was not supposed to hear that.  But... .I listened to my wife and her aunt laughing and carrying on and planning about how to inflict pain on their husbands... how we deserved it.

I heard it from their mouths... .no heresay.

I tend to be slow to process things... .I wouldn't describe myself as being triggered.

I am angry. 

I am not on that team... .with those two women. 

I also have feelings of sadness... .

FF

Good Morning formflier,

You certainly have a lot going on.   And it does appear that its going to take some time to pull it apart.   It has to be difficult to try and decipher all the very good input you've gotten. 

I hope you are giving yourself credit for the effort and willingness you are putting in.  I get how difficult that is.  It makes a bunch of sense to me that you would have some feelings of anger and sadness.

I know for me when I have a bunch of conflicting and confusing thoughts banging away in my head I sometimes need to sit with them and let what ever is clanging around inside me rise to the surface.   Sometimes that takes a while.

For what it's worth I think Skip has put some wonderful stuff up in this thread,  his posts have helped me, so thanks (again) Skip.   

'ducks   

Yes... I'm confused... .

I believe that I am trying to make sense... out of something that can't be made sense of

I want to find something to try and build from

I'm sitting with my cup of coffee... trying to be quiet... .and consider things...

FF