BPDFamily.com

Quick backstory:  Remember, I sleep with CPAP and big splints on my arms.  Getting settled down to sleep is a bit of a thing. 

In other words, switching beds is a big deal.

Last night, there were no other beds in the house.  My option I was considering was going to hotel.

So... .wife is sitting in bed working on resume and I am dozing off. 

I have arthritis (service connected issue... .those helmets are heavy over 20 years) in my neck which regularly results in stress headaches and tension in muscles.

I have some medication I take that takes the edge off, but when this happens I need to close my eyes, lights off, be still and eventually when I wake up next morning, things are usually better.

It's a fairly common (couple times a month thing).

So, I let her know I was dealing with that and had taken medication.

I asked her to work on my neck (pull traction).  No reply. 

I get ready to go to sleep for evening and ask if she minds if I turn off the light. 

No reply.  As I get ready to reach for switch she says she will do it "in a minute or two"

"Ok thanks" is my reply.

I get settled down and about 5 minutes later I ask again.  "Can you turn off the light now, my head really hurts, I need to go to sleep"

She makes some speech about how this is like when I ask her to turn off TV in order for us to have a conversation.

"I don't understand that, I need to go to sleep now, will try to talk about that later"

All of my speech is even... .but clearly tired and worn out.  My a$$ had been kicked by this.

More grumbling by her something about helping her sister and then said that she needed to work on getting a job.

"I don't understand how the light on or off affects you working on a computer.  Would you like me to go somewhere else to sleep?"

Silence

"I don't understand why you won't directly answer my questions or let me get the sleep that I need"

She gets up turns off light.  Makes some grumblings about not helping her sister out and that next time my sister won't help me (no idea what she is talking about)

She leaves the room.

My guess is she was playing the "persecutor" role and was "pushing" me to be a victim.

I just wanted to sleep. 

Any thoughts on what I could have done different or better.

This used to be common... .hasn't happened in long time.  I'm guessing it is linked to pianos... .moving... .all the rest.

FF

Well, here is how I see it. They might want to engage is triangulation, by painting us as the "persecutor", but we don't have to accept that staring role. We can't help or control how they interpret things(and every person has the right to their own interpretation, even if it's unhealthy or just plain wrong), but we don't have to buy into it. BPDh often wants to act like he's put upon by me, if I ask for anything, it's like he sees it as an opportunity to play victim. That's his choice, and like you, I now see it for what it is.

I can't change the way he wants to interpret things. I'd understand, of course, if they were really difficult things for him to do, but like you, we are talking simple things like your shutting off the light. One of mine is I have asked him to spread out the shower curtain(we even call it different terms: I say open the curtain, he says close... .I say who cares, he knows what I mean... .lol), so it doesn't mildew, and I don't have to get in a wet shower later in the day. He sees this as a super big deal, and likes to act like I'm "controlling", thereby giving him the right to feel "put upon", or feel victimized.

It's actually very funny. I mean, it can be irritating at times, that I can't just ask normal partner things, things I'd ask of any roommate, and it not become a huge deal, but that's just part of BPD I've decided. When they don't have something "real" to be upset about, they find something. It's like a stress relief, maybe?

As long as we don't pick up the label, or engage in being part of the triangle by arguing, or even acknowledging, I think you are good. I think you did just the right thing. I think pwBPD do it just so we do react. Then they can argue why we are victimizing them, and when we defend, or JADE, it really makes them feel justified. It's hard not to, but you didn't. Kudos to that. I know how hard that can be sometimes, especially when you are tired or in pain.

I don't think we can go back in time, but it is a live and learn experience. My H would take offense at me sleeping in another room. He interprets that as a threat to the marriage. My take on this is that, if someone is not able to sleep- then that is a bigger threat to the marriage as a tired, grumpy person really is not able to be a good partner then.

Over the years, there are times when we just need some sleep. It is part of self care. Our MC has said that when someone is tired, hungry, not feeling well, that they have to take care of that need before considering another person. Since we used to argue at night a lot, she urged one of us to leave the bedroom at that point if we were in an exhausted circular fight. My H was astounded at that idea, but I agreed it is better for both of us to sleep.

I also found that I was less able to deal with any conflict or dysregulation if I was tired. If I tried to take care of myself, he would interpret that as abandonment and rejection. This would lead us down the crazy path. Just me saying to him "I need to take some time to myself" will trigger him. I know that if I say this at the time I am already tired, it will be a highway to crazy. I have learned to take care of myself first- put the oxygen mask on so to speak. Tell him I want to get some sleep early in the evening, not when we are both tired.

I will look at what happened with you. You were already compromised- you were in pain and tired when you brought up your needs with your wife. This already put you in a less desirable state to interact with anyone. You asked her to help you with that, and she was unwilling. Then, you asked her to turn off the light. She didn't respond. Now considering she is sensitive to your responses to her, she may be interpreting your discomfort in a personal way, not your physical state. Something is going on with her- you don't know exactly what, but she isn't responding to you, or complying with your requests in any way.

At this point it is obvious you are on the highway to crazy. It's also probably late and going to a hotel would possibly escalate things.

It would be great if you had another bedroom, but the point at which you decide to sleep alone is when you are physically uncomfortable, and then you do not put yourself in a position where your well being is dependent on her. whether this means a hotel or another bedroom. You need to be somewhere where you can take care of your health and not be dependent on someone's compliance.

I had to learn to do this in many ways. Often, I would eat first before sitting down to dinner, since my H would just eat while I was helping the kids when they were little. He wasn't concerned if I got to eat or not. It was my hunger and I learned to eat in peace first, then feed the kids and him. Menopause made it harder to sleep. I would find another place to sleep, even the couch if I had to. When visiting my mother, I have stayed in a hotel, if I was not able to sleep there. Sleep is just a basic human need, and so we can do what it takes to get it.

Have you noticed a pattern lately? Your wife is taking an opposing stand with you on many things, where you are going to live, the piano, your wanting the lights turned off.

One thing that helps me understand the nature of this is that- if someone is dysregulating, they are into their own thoughts and needs to the point that they are not really aware of the needs of someone else. I don't think this is something with evil or intent to harm. I think it is that they are focused on themselves. Also, physical discomfort can put someone in that same situation. You were in pain, and you expected your wife to be aware of your needs and also hoped she would be considerate of them. This may not be an unreasonable expectation, but it may be unrealistic for someone who is already compromised emotionally.

I don't necessarily like it, but I learned long ago that my mother is often not capable of being in tune with someone else's feelings. My H is sometimes, but not if he is triggered, or tired, or hungry. Expecting him to come home from work hungry and even notice that anyone else was hungry too was not realistic.

Our needs are our responsibility first.

As to victim position, it is my observation that to someone with BPD, there is only one victim - them.  I think that, as victims, they want sympathy and have a large need for it. When they are focused on their own need, they can't give it.

I don't see what else you could have done, considering there was no where else to sleep. she already knows you have the health issue. she knew you were getting ready to sleep. she knows everything she needed to know in order to give you a kiss goodnight and leave the room or turn off the light.

her choice to play a game about it in order to provoke you. its not your fault. you stayed calm and polite, and she took her grumpy self elsewhere. I don't know how to minimize it beyond letting the whole business go without further comment and having a place later to sleep that doesn't rely on the good will of a person who likes to start crap at bedtime.

sorry, she was being a pill 

I really dislike moments like this at bedtime .    Being nighttime makes it worse for me.  It feels like a power struggle when it happens between us and I am never at my best when I heading off to sleep.

Is it possible there was something bothering your wife and she was on the verge of dysregulating, or at the very least irritated? It could have been something to do with her sister or feeling ignored when the TV is on (the clues were dropped). Having been in a similar situation many times, I have learned I have two choices:

1. Ask her what is bothering her. Usually she says, "Nothing" then the floodgates open a few minutes later. (Defuse the bomb.)

2. Try to rationalize with her to turn off the light or read elsewhere. (Ignore the bomb and hope it does not go off.)  

Option 1 can result in a lengthy cry or diatribe about someone or something. But it is much better than the full blown dysreg that can come from option 2.

Ditto  |iiii

Is the grumbling about her sister related to the piano incident?

I've found that my partner has a knack for trying to pick a fight when I'm at my worst -- in pain, in the ER, my professional licensing exam is tomorrow, etc.

Since you did such a good job avoiding drama over the piano, my guess would be that she was trying again to engage you in a fight over it. Or a fight over anything. Because she has bad feelings (about the piano and probably something deeper) and needs to justify those bad feelings by manufacturing a conflict in which you're the bad guy.

formflier, I'm sorry, it sucks to have to deal with that when you're tired, drained, and in pain.

I think this is a fantastic question. How do we step out of the drama triangle, even when we're being drawn into it by our partner?

The way out of the drama triangle is to move into the center - a combination of sensitivity, compassion, and responsibility. No matter what role we feel ourselves gravitating towards, we can reframe our perspective and change our role.

~ From Victim ("I'm blameless" to Vulnerable ("I'm struggling"

Being a victim is feeling helpless, oppressed, powerless. Moving away from victimhood means being emotionally mature, vulnerable without being needy. Accept the situation and take responsibility to problem-solve and take action.

~ From Persecutor ("I'm right" to Assertive ("I have needs"

Instead of blaming or punishing, or being forceful or manipulative, give constructive feedback and initiate negotiations.

~ From Rescuer ("I'm good" to Caring ("I'm listening"

Don't overstep or overreach. Be a supportive, empathetic listener and give the other person the respect of letting them take care of themselves and solve their own problems.

Looking back at the stressful interaction from last night, what do you think might have helped you move out of the victim role, formflier?

You did fine... light went out, you got to sleep, you didn't react and kept it her problem, not yours

Its not a triangle though as there was no rescuer.

She was being the victim and making you the persecutor if anything.

In her perspective you were dismissive of whatever she was doing as unimportant. Felt you were being controlling. Its just straight forward childish sulking and attempt at guilt tripping. Your need was being trumped by her instant gratification need to do whatever she was doing

ie you dont care... there will be consequences... and they are your fault... its nothing to do with me... see if I care.

Was she really doing what she made out she was doing? Motivation doesn't always match the  excuse ie did it really have anything to do with her sister or getting a job?

She was sitting on bed next to me with a laptop.  I suspect she was browsing jobs and messing with her resume.

Didn't see screen but heard clicking... .although it wasn't hard core typing.

You said, "

My guess is she was playing the "persecutor" role and was "pushing" me to be a victim."

Actually it is the opposite. She was the victim. The person with BPD is always the victim. I have the karpman triangle explained the the Essential Family Guide to BPD

She was being the victim because for whatever reason having something to do with her sister, she was (too tired? What?) to get up and turn off the light.

In her mind, you were the persecutor by trying to get her to do something she didn't want to do.

If you had said "never mind," and gotten up yourself, you would be playing the rescuer.

A bit better thing to say than "I don't understand why you won't... ." is "HELP ME UNDERSTAND what you're experiencing right now." I like "experiencing" because it is bigger than THINKING or FEELING and combines both. Then again, that late at night you might not want to invite conversation.

If I were you, I would figure out what to do to avoid that setup again. Conflict before sleeping is not good. What you might want to do is approach the issue the next day when things are going well and ask the same question.

When you have no clue of what is going on, asking the other person "What are you experiencing right now?" said in a non-threatening way can be helpful 

I like this.  I like to use "help me understand... .xyz" as a verbal trick to get me away from saying "why do you do this"... .which sounds accusatory.

I've got a new tool for my tool-belt.

Thanks !

FF

This is what I wrote in the Essential Family Guide to BPD. The point is you don't want to be on the triangle AT ALL.

The Karpman Triangle game inhibits real problem-solving. It creates confusion and distress, not solutions. No matter who “wins” each fight, both sides are miserable. This becomes a second layer of upsetness—one layers is the never-ending fights; the other is whatever the disagreement is about.

Families are systems of interconnected and interdependent individuals, none of whom can be understood in isolation from the system. One popular model is called the Karpman Triangle, after its founder, Stephan Karpman, MD. The Karpman Triangle happens in all families, even in relatively healthy ones. The roles in this drama are

•   the “victim”

•   the “persecutor,” who bullies the victim

•   the “rescuer,” who swoops in and saves the victim

In the following example of the triangle, two sisters discuss their problems involving child care arrangements: (sorry, this was in a chart that doesn't translate)

Person   What They Say   Role

Louise    “You keep on calling me at the last minute to babysit. I have to drop all my plans and I don’t like it.”   Self, victim; Eleanor prosecutor

Eleanor    “I can’t help it! Sometimes things come up and I can’t plan!”   Self victim; Louise, prosecutor

Louise   “You really could plan better. Did you really have to rush over to your boyfriend’s house on Tuesday?”   Victim again, Eleanor as prosecutor again

Eleanor   “No! I couldn’t. He was upset and he threatened to take drugs if I didn’t come right at that moment” (cries)   Self, victim; Eleanor, prosecutor

Their father, Harry

   (Walks in) “I heard you two arguing with each other. Louise, do you have to argue? Just back down to keep the peace.   Eleanor, rescuer;

Louise persecutor

Louise   (Sighs) “All right, all right. Please stop crying. Just try not to do it again, okay?”   Now somewhat uncomfortable with victim and not wanting to go against her father, rushes in as rescuer. Next time this happens, she may keep her resentment to herself

Eleanor   “Thank you, thank you. Okay, I’ll try. Thanks, Dad”   Comes out of victim mode—for now

Their mother, Thelma   (comes in) “Will you all just come sit at the dinner table? I’ve been cooking all day and everything’s getting cold and no one appreciates me.”   A new victim is created, with Harry, Eleanor, and Louise as persecutors


During disputes, the participants wear each other down, each trying to claim victimhood and slap the other with the persecutor label. This constant tug-of-war is exhausting. The roles constantly shift. As the drama plays out, if anyone in this triangle changes roles, the other two roles change as well.

Two can play the game, too. For example, let’s say that Harry wasn’t at home, and Eleanor’s pleas made Louise back down instead of setting clear limits. If Louise sighed and said, “Never mind, just call me whenever you need me,” Louise would be then acting as the rescuer. This is a frequent occurrence in families with members who have BPD.

When someone with BPD is one of the parties, this dynamic becomes more intense and dangerous. Metaphorically, the tug-of-war game is held over a river full of crocodiles and piranhas.

The bottom line: you can’t “out-victim” your BP. Although you can’t change the way your loved one relates to you, you can choose to stop dancing altogether.

Here is a good link with an illustration

www.therapyideas.net/manipulation.htm

FF, this is the third most viewed article on the website, I'd read it.  We got help from Karpman himself.  :)

https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

The triangle is called a drama triangle because "making drama" is replacing "solving problem/win/win."  

A key point that is often overlooked is that we get into drama triangles with out partner because we both prefer this to solving the problems facing us. Often we have or have acquired a drama style.

When we do - its all about the drama - little about the solution.

In the case you describe, you were both vying to become the victim and force the other party into a persecutor and maybe even later into a rescuer role.  Probably still are.  *)

What is stepping to the center?

Step back, recast this event as if it was two people that don't do drama, and do what they would do - or at least what you do (you control that).

---

It sounds like the two of you had needs that night. You needed to dawn headgear and pumps and splints and have silence.  She was already occupying the bed and working on her computer and stressing over her sister. You both wanted your needs to be met and were put out by the others needs.

1. When you were laying there, what was on your mind? How were you feeling about your wife's treatment of you? Give us all the feeling and thoughts. Any feeling of victim or persecutor?

2. When she was sitting there engrossed in her computer and you came in and took over the bed, how was she feeling about you? Use your best empathy skills, what was she experiencing?

3. You are going to re-live this at some future point - how can you better deal with it next time?

a --> In terms of pre-planning/negotiating the handling of your needs

b --> In terms of real time attitude (and response).

Formflier, I have a  question, could you create a rule of no electronics in the bed? The bed is the place for sleeping not for working on the laptop. Is there another place where your wife can work on the laptop?

I have that "rule".  Bedroom is for sleeping and... .well... you know... .   

In our house there is no TV in our room.  We were at her parents house.  TVs in every room.  Some have 2. 

You might miss out on some important show... .heaven forbid.

I don't create or enforce rules for my wife.

I asked her politely if she minded it I turned off the light.

FF

So... .to set the stage as best I can.  We were on the bed together for about an hour before I asked to turn off the lights.  She was working on computer and I was laying close to her with arm around her/on her.  Some light conversation but most of the time it was quiet and she would be typing.

At this point my goal was to keep my eyes shut, relax and see if the medication was going to intercept the growing headache or if I was really "done" for the evening.

There was some internal sighing to myself about wanting to do something different, but this issue is a fairly common one (couple times a month) and there is no use fighting it.  It is what it is.

At this point I was thinking it was nice to be close to my wife... .relaxing.  There is nothing to indicate she is pissed or in a mood and I don't make a habit of looking for it.  We are several hours out of the yelling match between her, her father and mother over the piano after I declined to participate in moving it.

So, I'm guessing about 15 minutes before I asked to turn off the lights was when I asked if she would pull traction on my neck and to rub it a bit.  Silence.

Now, I'm aware that there is "something" going on with her.  I realize that I am in no mood to be a "BPD whisperer" and that I need to tread carefully.  I would describe my feelings and internal monologue as a bigger sigh... ."really... not now"... ."what a pain in the a$$"

If I had felt better, I might try to validate, engage, use touch etc etc.  I didn't have the energy or desire.  I was in the self care mode.

My wife has expressed frustration at this mode and my issues.  Says many times they are a choice or something I brought on myself.  I've long since dropped this discussion with her.  I can only guess that this was creeping back into her mind.

It's now obvious that headache is not getting better.  Even with eyes closed I'm getting more light sensitive, pain is increasing.  There is a thought in me that my wife is very likely going to be an obstacle to me getting to sleep and I need to be prepared and not react or blow up.  My feelings are of "resignation" to the situation... ."it is what it is".

I try to think and focus on being even in my delivery when I ask if she minds if I turn off the light so I can go to sleep.

Silence.  I'm reaching to turn it off and "I'll get it in a minute".

At this point, there is no doubt (in my mind) that she is going to engage in some kind of game, point, issue... .whatever you want to call it. 

I said "Ok" and laid down, mask on and gave it a shot to be still and see if I can sleep.  I'm also counting in my head and I checked my cell phone before laying down to note the time. 

My feelings toward my wife are deteriorating and I'm trying to "compartmentalize" my thinking and focus on proper delivery and problem solving (I need to sleep with no other beds in house).

So, the reality is I spent about 5 minutes weighing my options.  Would there be a bigger "upset" if I continue to question her/push for lights out or if I just got up and went to hotel.

I decided that hotel would be a bit of an escalation.  I'm also having thoughts about my wife that center around me "not deserving this" (and William Munny talking back to me in my head about "deserve has nothing to do with it" 

OK... I get it... .I have an unusual internal monologue...    

After 5 minutes


OK, so my feelings towards my wife when I asked after 5 minutes to turn light out.  There is contempt for her.  I realized this and focused on being even in my delivery of my question. 

I choose not to engage on the "turn lights out being same as a request to turn off TV" because I saw nothing practical that could be talking about.  Purely opinion.  I choose not to ignore her (and tell her I didn't understand her point and would like to talk later) to attempt to be polite and demonstrate good behavior (not doing ST).

There is definitely a "I can't believe I'm having to deal with this nighttime crap... .poor me thing" going on in my head." at this point.

Since there was a practical aspect to the light being on or off and her getting a job (although I don't understand that) I decided to engage a little more and ask questions that would seem to require a direct answer.  "Would you like me to go somewhere else to sleep" 

More ST.  It's clear to me that my wife is not interested in solving a problem and that she is looking to "make a point" or "show me" something.  Been down this road many times.  My opinion of my wife continues to deteriorate and my internal monologue is all about not blowing up at her and "calling her out"... .etc etc.  (that is the old me)

Me trying to focus on practicalities and problem solving.  Instead of making a speech to her I let her know I didn't know how to understand or "take" her silence and her refusal to take action that helps me meet a basic need.

I felt like giving a speech about how she has been to drs, looked at the x-rays, seen my medical file and that she should understand this has nothing to do with her its a disability that I have and there is a tried and true way to deal with it and I would appreciate it if she would get out of the way and let me treat the issue.  (but... .in my mind that would have been "adding  energy" to the situation... .so I kept those thoughts to myself)

She turns off light, makes her speech and leaves room.

My internal thoughts were "what an uncaring b$tch... " I kept those to myself and luckily the pain and need for sleep quickly overtook me and I went to sleep.

Woke up next day with a "new day" attitude and carried on... .

Hope this sheds more light on what I was thinking and how that compared to what I actually let out of my mouth.

I'm open to opinions and options on what I could have done better.

FF

I don't want to upset you, FF, but look at the questions and look at what you wrote.

You grabbed all the drama stuff and immersed in it.

Your were silent on the solutions stuff.

Both of you opt for drama.  Not solutions. 

My internal thoughts were "what an uncaring b$tch... "


My only advice to you at this point is not to personalize this. I think it is great that you didn't respond by saying something to that extent. That would have gotten you on the arena as persecutor. It would have likely escalated because your wife would not even connect that comment to anything about her.

Thank you Randi for confirming my own observation that the pwBPD prefers victim mode, and when there is a circumstance where the other person may also be seen as competition for victim mode, the pw BPD can push to maintain that position.

Why, because there is a payoff to victim mode. Victim mode absolves them from any responsibility, and may result in sympathy.

In addition, I think the least desirable mode is "caretaker " or rescuer.

The pairing of rescuer- victim seems to be a preferred configuration. I have observed myself that during times where the rescuer caretaker may step out of that role, and there is even a hint that person may slip into victim role ( not a drama, but being tired, or not feeling 100% as in FF's situation) the response from the pw BPD is paradoxical to what one would assume.

I observed this between my parents, and my mother with BPD, and once I saw that, it explained the situation I had in my own relationship. In victim role, the person with BPD perceives things as being done to them, on purpose, as a result on mal intent on the person who is "doing that thing" to them. This happens when the other person shifts out of caretaker/rescuer role. Since there can only be ONE victim, that person becomes the persecutor.

My mother tells stories about how I, as a toddler, threw up on her nice carpet on purpose just to get her. She didn't seem to get that a toddler with a stomach ache has no control over where to throw up.

The more difficult time of my marriage was when I was pregnant and/or taking care of small children. This took away from the usual emotional caretaking I could do for my H.  I had hoped for some empathy, but once out of rescuer role, I unkowingly became the persecutor.

If I mentioned that I was tired, or fell asleep early my H would accuse me of ignoring him. He didn't seem to grasp that my wish to sleep had nothing to do with him. He would then rage or give me the silent treatment. Not understanding the situation at the time, I was very confused and found this to be hurtful, but he was acting out of his own feeling that I had rejected him.

My only advice to FF is that, this isn't personal, it comes from them being unable to see things outside of victim mode and there can only be one victim. Since you were not feeling well, in her mind, you moved from rescuer to persecutor. From then on, what you say is possibly interpreted as an attack and she sees her actions as being justified.

While it may feel like we are victims at the moment, I can reframe this in terms of sympathy for them. How sad that they can not connect with others at some level.

This is basically how I frame it for myself as a way of staying out of the triangle in my own perspective if possible.  Even if I don't really know all that is going on at the moment, the idea  of acting out of victim perspective can help me not react in ways that perpetuate the drama. Knowing that I can not change that perspective- that style of interpreting things, keeps me from JADEing.

FF were you already hooked up to your CPAP and wearing the arm splints? So you were pretty much dependent on her turning off the light?

What is your and your wife's usual bedtime routine as far as who turns off the light, when you set up your CPAP and splints, etc?

I think you were amazingly patient in this discussion considering the pain you were in. But it would be better if there's a way to change your routine so your physical comfort isn't dependent on her choices.

The drama triangle comes from the field of transactional analysis. It is like tennis, its about both parties. Unless you have two or three people that have this inclination and that are inclined to pick up the roles, the drama doesn't form.

Part of the problem is that this way of relating often becomes routine in the relationship.  This is a "go to" place.

In this situation, there is a "use conflict" for the room/bed.  She was there first, felt taht FF was coming in and controlling her options (victim).  FF was feeling uncared for (he had a headache, etc.) and also felt like a victim.

How would two strangers handle this in a shared sleeper berth on a train?  Most likely, they would just solve it.

Randi's point that pwBPD like being the "victim" is not exactly true. They don't like it at all.  Neither does FF.  It would be more accurate to say that people with BPD often chose "drama" over "solutions".

Typically people who chose drama are those who are in situations where solutions don't come easy.  They might feel oppressed.  They might feel that they get overruled too much.  They might feel intellectually inferior. Mental illness and addiction heighten these.

Attacking this bigger picture is really were the solution lies.

Thanks for clarifying that pw BPD don't like victim mode. I agree that they choose that way to handle things, although I would be overstepping boundaries to assume why. I do think there is a payoff for all of the roles ( and a price- drama) and that these dynamics seem to be prevalent in dysfunctional families.

In this light, we may get on the triangle because it is the only "tool" we have with which to handle differences in a relationship. We may not like it, but it can be a familiar place to be if it is what we know best. This could also be why ow BPD make this choice.

It has helped me to try to be aware of when I might be in one of the roles. It was a prevalent way of relating in my FOO, so it seemed normal to me until I became aware of it.

I perceived the other person as perpetrator and was not aware of my own perception which was as victim at the time. Once I was able to consider that the other person was possibly acting out of victim mode, seeing me as perpetrator, what we were both doing began to make sense.

Yes, it takes two to make drama- so yes, I agree that I need to stay mindful of my part in it.

Exactly.

I had splints on but not CPAP when I asked if I could turn off the light and she said wait a minute. 

Then I put on mask and lay still, then when I spoke again (after 5 minutes) I was wearing the mask.

Mask stayed on for the duration of the exchange and after she left the room.

To clarify:  This was not a normal situation at our house.  We were at her family house close to where we are moving.  We were in the guest room.

No other places available to lay down in the house.

There are two different modes (for going to bed) when we are at home.  If my wife is up and active, I will excuse myself and go to bed.  In this case I set up room, turn off lights and go to bed.

If she is tired and wants to come to bed or if it looks like sex is on the horizon, then we both go to bed at same time.  She is usually last one in bed and turns off lights. 

FF

Not upset at all but I don't see that I was going for drama and not solutions. 

I was consciously trying to get to solution (sleep) with minimum or no drama.

I had a choice of turning off the light myself (without asking) which may have been perceived as aggressive or uncaring (there is some history here) so my habit is to try to communicate clearly.

So, my choice was to ask if she minded if I turned off the light.  To toss the ball in her court so to speak and see  if she had a response.  At this point she had already done some very obvious ST.  I believed that had I done an action without speaking (turn off light) that it would have been "going for drama".  I believe that in trying to engage her in a conversation I was seeking and proposing a solution.  (Me turn off light)

She offered that she would turn it off in minute or two.  Seems reasonable and was not obviously picking a fight.  I could have went for drama and said I need it right now, I hurt right now... .blah blah blah.

I believe I chose no drama (no fighting or chance for fight) and laid down and attempted to go to sleep.

Note:  No argument from me that parts of my "innards" were gearing up for a fight or some weirdness from her and that I wanted to avoid getting in a potential blowout.  Big difference in my feelings and my choices (IMO)

So, I let more than the allotted time go by (that my wife had proposed for her solution) and then I chose to engage again.

Instead of blaming and starting a fight I decided to state my truth and my need... simply and to the point.

I truly don't understand her point that came back about all these times that I ask her to turn off TV.  I don't see how that has a bearing on the issue of a light being on or not.  I believe what she is referring to is that she likes to engage me in complicated conversations while the TV is blaring and she is usually looking at her phone and a laptop off to the side.  Many times I can't even hear what she is saying (especially if my hearing aides aren't in) so I ask her to turn off the TV if she wants to have a conversation or we can have a conversation later.  If that is not what she is talking about, then I haven't a clue what "point" she was trying to make.

My thought was that she was trying to open up a rabbit trail to divert the conversation.  I believe if I was interested in drama/fighting that I would have "called her on it" etc etc.  I chose to ignore it

I spoke back to her so I would not be doing ST, let her know I didn't understand but was interested in speaking about it later (a solution).  I think drama would have been declaring that I was unable to talk now, how could she not see that, blah blah blah.  Instead I tried to be clear and to the point, even though I didn't feel like doing that.

She now brings sister issue into it (I believe another rabbit trail invitation or invitation to fight)

I told her I didn't understand relevance and then proposed solution (I asked if she wanted me to go somewhere else).  I think drama would have been a big speech about her not caring (me sharing my feelings).  Instead I kept it short and gave her a choice for solution.

I suppose I could have skipped explaining that I didn't understand and just offered to go somewhere else.  However, I try not to ignore "points" that she raises unless they are clearly abusive.

She goes back to obvious silence.

I could have chosen drama and accused her of ignoring me, not caring, etc etc.  I was still under assumption that me getting up and leaving would have been an escalation.  The normal pattern is when I exit a "scene" with her she hurls words and accusations at me on the way.  I do not respond.  Once I decide to leave, I leave.  (in the old days... before tools and this site... .it would be a big back and forth)

I tried to keep my last communication short to avoid drama/bad stuff.  I don't understand and I need sleep.

She gets up to go while flinging words and grumblings at me. 

So... I see me being the one offering solutions.  She offered one (light off in couple minutes) but didn't follow through.  I suspect it was never a serious solution for her, but that is just my guess.

I'm open to what I can/should do differently.

Please explain how I opted for drama and not solutions.

I don't see it.  If it is there, I want to see it and try something different in the future.

Last note:  There seems to be a vibe that I somehow kicked my wife out.


We were in room together for a good while before I started making moves towards going to sleep.  There was some in and out of room just before that.  I don't see either party (me or wife) having claim to being there first.  It is our guest room and where we sleep.

Not sure if that has bearing on this or not... .but wanted to clarify.

FF

I know that I fell into that drama triangle countless times ( and still do) but sometimes, now, I am able to see the possibility of it or at least recognize that I am in it. I think in this situation, you saw that you were in it, but wondered the best way to get out of it. It's a learning process. Don't be hard on yourself for falling in the drama hole. It is commendable that you saw it, and then posted here to learn about it.

Avoiding the drama isn't walking on eggshells, it is choosing an entirely different way to relate altogether, but that isn't easy to learn. We know what we know, and something different is not known to us. This is one reason we pair up with people who walk on the drama triangle, it is the steps we are most familiar with. We don't know any different. Most of us learned to do this as kids in our own FOO.

You know those street signs that alert you to driving conditions- such a fog ahead, or winding road? They are not there to tell us to drive on eggshells, but to be aware that the road conditions are not optimal- to be alert. This is a metaphor that I use for potential drama ahead, and one of those signs for me is:

MY FOO AHEAD and another one is SPOUSE FOO AHEAD

I found it stressful when we visited our FOO's because it was easy to slip without thinking into the ways we responded in our FOOs that were adaptive and acceptable in the FOO, and dysfunctional outside it. Each family has its own ways of communicating. Although we both regressed when visiting our FOO's, I was unfamiliar with the "dance" in my H's. He stepped into place, and I ended up inadvertently being out of step with the family and grating on all their nerves. My family "dance" was less in sinc, more erratic, so that was less of an issue.

The other warning sign for me is  IN NEED OF SELF CARE  I know that if I am in some way tired, cranky, stressed or in any kind of need that I am likely to get on to the triangle.

I don't use these ideas to try to predict or control the future, but as signs for me to be alert to my own feelings and how I am acting. I also don't use them to avoid family or WOE. We care about our families, and still visit them.

I know that when we visit families, at least one of will face a strong pull to regress, and that both of us are apt to not be at our best. I am the same way if I am tired or out of sorts. Seems like you were in a situation that was not optimal for you. Also consider that your wife being with her FOO can exacerbate her dysfunction. Now, the next time you see the signs FOO AHEAD, or FF FEELS YUKKY... you will recognize them.

Would you consider creating a no watching tv in the bed rule or a no laptop in the bed rule regardless of where you were?

 

With the benefit of hindsight I suppose I could have/should have said.

"Honey I am hurting and need to go to sleep now.  Can you go to a different room to do your work if you need the light on"

There have been times when she has been in bed with laptop or kindle and the lights of the room are off and I go to sleep just fine and she does her thing just fine (I guess... .as I go to sleep... .and later conversations reveal how many chapters she read or things like that).

So, it is abnormal for us to be in bed, me trying to sleep, her trying to work on computer and the main room light on.

In the few times that it comes up that she wants to work in bed, the light goes off, I go to sleep and she does... .whatever she does.  

I don't believe there has ever... .and I literally mean ever/never been a time when main room light has stayed on and I went to sleep.

That is why I believe she was trying to pick a fight/cause a scene and was not focused on solutions.

A solution that has worked in the past is to "turn off the light".  I didn't mention or say that she could continue to work (or not) because that has not been issue in the past.  The light has been an issue.

Hope that clarifies.

FF

On point of Karpman's work is that both parties have a proclivity for drama roles rather than non-drama roles.

You took a drama role in the "baby stroller" incident.

You took one here, too.

Do you see that?

A parent can do that to a child. Equal adults would need to agree on this together, right?


On point of Karpman's work is that both parties have a proclivity for drama roles rather than non-drama roles.

You took a drama role in the "baby stroller" incident.

You took one here, too.

Do you see that?

No, I don't see that.  In either incident.

What would a no drama role have looked like when I was trying to go to sleep.

Maybe I'm equating avoiding making speeches and accusations as avoiding drama.

In both situations I was trying to be short, direct and to the point... .avoid fluff.   To me, fluff is usually where drama comes.

FF

 

I do acknowledge that with the benefit of hindsight I would do the stroller incident differently.

One poster had a genius response about not dealing with disturbed people (I'm paraphrasing) that ended it with one response.

My "intent" of how I would approach the stroller incident is the same, I would hope to choose different tactics.

FF

You recognize that it is a drama triangle (which is transactional).

You see her role.

You don't believe you have a role.

Correct?

Incorrect.

My focus was on "staying off the corners" and not playing the role that it appeared my wife was possibly pushing me towards.

My analysis is that she was trying to pick a fight of some sort, I think starting out as the persecutor trying to provoke me so that I would lash out at her and then should could be offended/injured (victim)

My goal (and what I believe I achieved) was not not give a poor me speech or otherwise lay out all the injustices she had committed and I avoided lashing out at her.

My thoughts when looking at this as a tool is that the triangle shows me where the pitfalls are and what to avoid (stay off the corners)

Skip,

What would a non-drama transaction look like for the "light incident"?

FF

Maybe I'm just falling for the drama, but I'm really curious as to what poor FF was supposed to do when he's in intense pain from the light, hooked up to a CPAP machine, splints on his arms, and she's already told him not to turn off the light. He needed the light off ASAP. No time or mental capacity to formulate the perfect DBT communication acronym.

Maybe tell her I need the light off now so please go to another room if you need light for your work, then unhook everything and go turn the light off himself? I doubt that would have gotten a better reaction?

I don't have either of your ears right now, so I'll yield for other members to step in.  *)

I wonder if it might help at all to look at the events of this entire day as one seamless "event," at least in terms of a drama that found its final (and maybe inevitable) act in a battle at bedtime.

Otherwise, I'm stumped.

I don't have a script of how you would've better handled the situation with your statements, formflier, but in my own life with my BPD/BPD traits loved ones (Husband; M-I-L; older son; younger son's wife), I've found that removing myself from the Karpman Triangle and opting out of the drama was more of an empathy-, attitude-, or head- and heart-thing.

I had to stop thinking things like "He's just trying to pick a fight" or "She's such a b****" or "He doesn't care about me!" or whatever. I realized that when the offensive behaviors happen, it's really not about ME; it's about my loved ones' inability to separate their own feelings from the facts and their reactions to those feelings.

I really don't see anything intentional in their words and actions anymore; they feel hurt or victimized or whatever, and that's it. They aren't actually trying to hurt or victimize me. I feel sad for them, and sorry that they have to feel so hurt so much of the time. I really feel empathy for them, and that seems to have removed me from the triangle, minimizing the drama for all of us.

Not sure if that helps you, formflier, but that's what has made the difference in my own relationships  *)

You have my ears, I would like to hear what a drama free "light event" would have looked like.

I want to learn, I've given my version and the way I see it, I would appreciate you sharing yours.

FF

Agreed.  I have more luck controlling my actions and my words than my thoughts.  Especially when tired, hurting, otherwise compromised... .


Somewhat. 

What would really help is for someone to point to different points and say "right here was a drama/no drama choice" and explain that.

In a similar fashion to how I can tell you what I was thinking and why I chose what I chose at different points.

Then, I think I can learn from that or understand better why some would see my choices as picking drama.

FF

We can't really know because we don't know how the day went as KateCat says.

Here is a possible scenario.

She occupied the guest room first and was busy doing something.

FF hooked up to CPAP, and expected her to stop what she was doing and attend to him or scatter.

This is an somewhat re-occuring event.

:sign_attn:  So the maybe the drama clock started with the presumption of plugging in and expecting wife to put what she was doing aside on your timetable and her feeling she and her needs were bandished.

She responded with silent treatment.

If this event occurred with a non-drama couple, based on past experience, our non-drama guy would have acknowledged her use of the room when he entered, stated his legitimate needs and sought a cooperative solution. Maybe helping her relocate.  Maybe laying out on the sofa in the den for 30 minutes.

:sign_attn: And if she didn't want to engage, create a reasonable solution (cover eyes).  

Neither party expressed their legitimate needs and were seeking solution. The focus was on being hurt or not treated well. To anyone looking in from the outside, solving this was not hard, but all the energy went to feeling victimized (voiced or not). Drama.

Drama is as much about where our thinking and beliefs go,  as what we overtly do or engage in.

I think you are at the point of not overtly engaging in drama with her with verbal sparring... .but your internal dialogue IS drama, and therefore your experience leads to a feeling of being persecuted... .which leads to your question... .how to minimize victim hood when you are forced into that corner of the triangle... .even the question speaks to drama.

You can run around a drama triangle all by yourself... .no one else even has to be in the room.



how about this... .


This is your internal dialogue.  See the drama?

By the way... .you know what REALLY helps me to sooth a migrane?  STOPPING THIS KIND OF THOUGHT PROCESS the minute I notice I'm doing it.   B/C when I go here, which is essentially a place of feeling victimized and tortured instead of taking the experiences I have on earth as NOT personal TO ME... .when I slip into this... .and I start to personalize and go into victimhood... .it is incredibly stressful... .whether I'm engaging overtly in it with someone directly, or if I'm just biting my tongue but seething with the same energy/beliefs/thoughts in my own head... .that running dialogue... .I know it well... .and it makes my blood pressure go through the roof, and it makes my head pound.

formflier, you are a dramatic gentleman. Don't deny it. 

Here's a line from the "stroller" incident:

"People know me... .they know my Dad... .and my Granddad.  We're cut from the same cloth.  We'll tell it to you straight... .we behave as proper gentleman should."

You've risen to many challenges in your life. And maybe the challenge that Skip, NotWendy, MaybeSo and others are suggesting, is the next important challenge for you. The one where you grow beyond even these significant labors. The one beyond pride and honor and defense of reputation. Where the war is really over and shields are really down. And you're not a "formflier" anymore.

(By the way, congratulations on refusing to levitate pianos at the drop of a hat. To me that's an important sign of mature change.)

So, the words that would come out of the mouth of someone that was non drama, when faced with the situation I was in would be... .

If it is that obvious how to solve it without saying dramatic things, why not suggest some things to say?

I think what I hearing is that drama is a state of mind and that the words don't matter... is that what I'm supposed to hear?

FF

My wife is very focused on tone.  If I talk to her in an even tone, she gets upset because the tone is not warm.  It is possible that the same words with a different tone would be more successful.

P.S.  I am sharing this because my wife complains about it - not because I have figured out how to have a warm tone.   :)

I get similar complaints, but they are not consistent.  I am too soft, too loud, too this too that.  I used to "chase it".

After several times of saying exactly what she wanted in a certain situation and exactly how she wanted it said and then have her say that I did it wrong and she never said that etc etc.  I quit trying to please her with tone.

So, I pick a tone I would like or that I think is "generally acceptable" and go with that.  Even, measured and clear is usually what I go with.

I normally have to tone down my volume to get it right.  So, if I am attempting to say something softly, most people will hear a "normal tone".  If I am attempting to say something "normally" most people think I am being loud and direct... .maybe even pushy.

So,  I use the internal trick of trying so say things softly... .to get it "just right".

FF

I can see this and I get that internal monologues can drive things.   If you let them.  I also think that trying to not think things is worse than just letting your thinking go.  Acknowledge the state of things in your mind and then make decisions based on that, as to what needs to come out of your mouth.(or what action to take)


Agreed.  This discussion would have went totally different for me in a "pre-tool" period.  Sort of a paleolithic pre-bpdfamily formflier.  Very likely would have went nuclear and I would usually force her from the room with the sound of my voice to get her to hush. 

Those were very bad times in my life... .not good.  Half the time I didn't know which way was up or down. 


I can see that.  I suppose I should have been more exacting in my question or what I thought would come out of the discussion.

My rephrase would be.   When another party is saying words (or giving ST) and it appears that their goal is to put you in a corner of the triangle.  What words can you use or how can you  approach them and act to center yourself or get out of the corner they are trying to force you into. 

My wife can choose to behave "with drama" or not.  That is up to her.  My goal was to act in a way that was not dramatic and that kept me from going to a corner. 



Sure... I can see this.  I don't think I was doing this, but I can see that this is possible. 


Yes, I can see it.  That was really not the point of my question.  The point of my question was help in debriefing my words and actions to see if I could have "done it better" in the interaction with my wife so that I demonstrate good behavior and don't participate in the roles of the corners of the triangle.

My wife may guess and routinely tells me about my internal monologue.  She is rarely right. 

I see value in working on internal monologue but I have never been able to "not think" things.  I can distract myself and think of other things quite well, but not when I am trying to solve a problem.

So, the problem I was trying to solve was how get get to sleep with minimum "drama" arguing or whatever when it seemed that my wife was wanting to engage in some kind of sparring... for some reason...


Luckily, I've never had thought process migraines.  In fact, docs are resistant at calling my issues migraines since they originate from my neck and kinda creep up.

Also luckily, I have a tried and true way of managing them when the medication doesn't work (which is about 50% of the time).  Go to sleep.  So, sometimes that means I call it quits at 6 pm or whenever. 

FF

I guess I'm not seeing the drama in this.  We normally speak in measured tones, rarely get flustered or "act out".

True, we are not shy about passing judgement when appropriate, telling someone no or that we believe they are behaving badly (again when appropriate).

When we do that it tends to be direct, to the point and then is over.  No long speeches about "how could you" "what were you thinking" and we rarely denigrate peoples characters.

So many people are shocked at the forthrightness of saying "You failed to do xyz" and you should do abc to fix this.  What would rarely come out of our mouth was a follow up of saying that they are an idiot... .or worthless... or call them  a name (which in my book would be drama)

I do like ceremonies... .but I don't think that is the drama we are talking about.

FF

I suppose... .but I really try to compartmentalize.  The piano blow up was hours earlier, no reason to bring it up again.  It may have been a factor in my wife's thinking or actions, I'll never know.


I thought I explained this better.  About an hour together, some in and out of room.  I don't think any claim could be laid to who was first.  Nor do I think that matters.  My first indication of something being odd was when I told her about taking my medication and I was hurting and asked for her help with neck and got ST.  I was not looking for drama, I expressed a need and asked for help.  Asked... not demanded.  Many times I do this and she says sure and does it.  Occasionally I ask and she says no... .and usually gives a reason.  Sometimes it goes ST.  ST is "almost always" an indicator that she is looking for some kind of sparring.


My expectation was that she would respond to my questions or statements and that when she said she would turn off light in couple minutes, that she would do so.

I do think this can be problematic, and, as in the incident involving the stroller, it seems to presuppose a position of judgment and definition and control that resides solely with you (or maybe the "royal You," as in you, your father and your grandfather.)  :) Maybe I'm missing the "dialectic" aspect to this approach.

Sorry to tease you, because I think you've done incredible work for your family over the past eighteen months. You've almost single-handedly righted the ship, and there's not really anyone to acknowledge it openly, because of the sensitive nature of what you accomplished.

Time for lots of self-care now. And enjoyable activities. And maybe accepting that some internal dialogues are going to take a while to die down for you.

This is very likely true.   Bad dreams have been gone for a while now.

Keep sending the teasing... .there is often truth there.

The royal me is very true.  I view my actions as not for me... .but for my position which is much more important that me.

My actions that I took for me while in the service where not for me, but for the uniform.

When I reference that I act like my father and grandfather, it's not for them personally but for the position they occupied in the community, especially the community of farmers.  I'm 4th or 5th generation (depending on how you measure that) on my family land and there has NEVER been a written contract with neighbors or those that we worked with on the farm. 

We discuss, agree on terms, give our word and shake hands. 

Hmm... maybe I should get down off my soapbox.    Anyway... that is the way most royals go about things... .they act for the benefit of the position, not their person.

FF

I hear you, Lord Grantham.  :) (No, you are probably too busy and too productive in real life to have followed Downton Abbey, but its creator does a very fine job of explaining and illustrating this ethos. Lots to admire there.)

Love it... .|iiii

I have watched parts of one or two episodes... .so not familiar.

The current TV show I'm hooked on... .really following the one my wife is watching is "Rules of Engagement".

Really entertaining look at relationships at different stages.  We've actually had some good productive conversations out of "issues" that came up in the show.  So far all positive.

FF

One idea that has helped me to avoid drama is to practice being mindful of my end of it, and also my feelings. I don't know if it is possible to think about what exactly to say, although it is better to focus on "I" statements, not "you". This is something I practiced with my co-dependency sponsor. She basically told me to get the word "you" out of my vocabulary.

Another almost mantra that we practiced was, if "I am upset about something the problem is me". Now, the logical response is to say "how can that be possible if someone or something is driving me crazy"? This idea isn't as much about the contribution of someone else, but to focus on the only person you have control over- ourselves. By taking that focus, I can then start to think of solutions that I might have better control over.

Part of this is to also be aware of potentially difficult situations and take steps for self care. Being tired, or emotional means I am not really being present to the situation. That's when it is more likely to get into drama. Why? because it's the most familiar to me. I was raised with it. So by example, lets say I was trying to eat a healthy diet, and there's a candy store up ahead. What to do? Well, I could eat a meal so I'm not starving when I walk by, or I could take a different path.

There are times I can deal with my FOO, but there were times when I was not emotionally able to. After my dad died, it was really hard to stay in the house with mom. It was a reminder that he wasn't there. Mom can trigger me. That's just the way it is, and so being with her when I was already upset was like not eating all day and walking into a candy store.  So, I made a point of doing things like take her out to lunch instead of hanging around the house. This is what I decided to do to take care of myself.

Staying with in law FOO is stressful too. I try to let my H interact with his family on his own a bit as I don't fit the family dynamics as much. I might offer to run an errand or something, or help clean up in the kitchen with a few family members while he is with the other ones. Sometimes we have stayed in hotels if there are a whole bunch of people there so that we can have a little quiet. I'm sure your wife's family loves to see the kids, but you have a lot of them, and any time a bunch of people are together, that changes the family dynamics a bit. One option might have been to let the kids have a sleepover with the family, and you go to a hotel. It is possible that your wife wanted some one on one time with her family.

One suggestion might be that, rather than what to say, to look at how you were feeling. You were not feeling well physically, but also, it may have been emotionally stressful. What can you do next time to take care of yourself- physically and emotionally, to make this work better for you?

I definitely qualified as "not present".  When I am present I am focusing on helping, interacting being a part of the dynamic.

My pain was present, I was taking steps to deal with that. 

I was conscious to let her know my status and I was clear that I was asking for help (vice demanding or expecting).

When there have been more people in the house we have gone to hotel.  The sleep plan was discussed prior to the trip and on arrival.  It was handled.  "Everyone" knows that I have issues so it is not weird to discuss where FF will sleep.

Many times hotel is the option/solution if there is any doubt at all I will have a spot.

I suppose that after the earlier blowups that day I might should have asked again about where I should sleep, although I could see that being viewed as pushing buttons... .inflammatory.  Hard to tell.

FF

I'm thinking that the problem here is not really the interaction that happened that night in bed, or something that can be "fixed" by using better words to handle it if it happens again. The communication tools and techniques that are taught by this site (Validation, S.E.T., Boundaries, Radical Acceptance, De-Personalizing) won't make things better in the long run if they aren't coming from a place of empathy and love for our partner.

If we think of the tools as a way of controlling the way our loved one acts and treats us, as a way of controlling the situation to meet our desires and needs, then our partner will feel that coming from us and react accordingly. No one wants to feel controlled, and even if our partner doesn't verbalize that he/she is feeling that way, they will react negatively in all likelihood.

Your wife may have still been smarting over the piano situation earlier in the day, and wasn't in any mood to get over it as quickly as you were. Hence the reluctance to administer to your needs that night, or the silent treatment she was leaning towards. Your inner thoughts may not have come out in the words you chose, but they most likely affected the tone of your voice and body language.

If my Husband is thinking (thanks for the abridgement, MaybeSo):


while engaging in a conversation with me, believe me, I know it, whether he is being "nice" to me or not... .If I would be thinking the same of him while using S.E.T. or whatever, then he would sense it, too. Which is why changing the internal narrative in our heads--and detaching from taking every little thing as a personal affront to be offended at, rather than trying to understand our partner's feelings--is the key to a loving relationship.

You love your wife; there are reasons for that. Most of the time she is the sweet, loving, wonderful woman you decided to marry and have children with. Reminding yourself of that when she isn't doing or saying the things you want her to could change your negativity towards her at those times. Not only will that change the dynamics of your relationship, but it could help you let go of the need to control her actions and reactions, and enable you to use the communication tools and techniques the way they are meant to be used: With empathy, compassion, understanding and love  :)

You already mentioned that in the past this would have turned into a huge drama-fest, with yelling and arguing and demanding your wife leave the room etc.

FF, you used your skills to not pickup the rope.  From your description, all your wife did was stay unaware or in some manner ignore or be unresponsive, then mentioned something about a past situation with the TV and her sister... .then turned off the light and grumbled as she left the room. (her own inner dialogue was driving that)  I'm thinking the light was off and your need was met under 10 minutes?  With very little fanfare, really.   Your goal was to get the light out and to sleep.  And that's what you got.  

I still don't see a lot of high drama other than what was going on inside you.

If I I saw a print-out of what was going on inside your wife's head, that led to some of her grumblings... .it would probably be similar with your internal dialogue... .something like... .

Oh, here we go... .now that I'm just getting focused... .

he always does this... .his needs always come first

my needs are invisible to him... .they don't rank

and now I'm suppose to drop what I'm doing and attend to him even after... .

I don't deserve this... .poor me... .this whole day was... .

and if I don't attend to him he'll just... .

grrrrr... .

So, you know.  From where I stand, this is a no-brainer.  

Was the interaction flawless?  :)id you wife immediately respond in the caring and nurturing way you would have liked?  

No.

Bottom line.  You got your needs met with a minimum of high drama. This won't always look pretty.  But it still worked.

The drama appears to still be there, for both of you under the surface but you don't act it out with her... but both of you are likely looking at these kind of interactions through a lens of victim, perp or rescuer ... rather than through a neutral lens of assuming no personalized ill intent.  It's not about not having thoughts... .it's about noticing our beliefs as they form our thoughts and as they form our knee jerk reactions... .and eventually being able to look at what we beleive and really challenge it... .and eventually shifting to looking at experiences like this through a different lens altogether.

Such as... .

She probably didn't register what I said b/c she is engrossed in her own project right now on the computer

She is probably just tired from the day in her own way... .even if it isn't manifested as a migrane... .

I get these migranes 2x a month... .it's understandable that she may feel frustrated when they happen... she is only human

and so on... .

And even... .

Maybe I AM being ignored... .maybe she IS angry... .she is only human... .even still... .I feel confident I can work this through and take care of myself just fine... .it will be okay... .this isn't about me... .she is having her own experience and it makes sense to her... .




I still think the lens you view these interaction through IS drama as defined in drama triangle dynamics.  People who are not viewing an experience through the lens of drama... .take a stance that another person is operating from a place of legitimacy that makes sense from THEIR experience... .and do not personalize it as being about placing or forcing someone else into victimhood. They feel confident that they can take care of themselves, even if the other person is having a markedly different experience that makes no sense to them in the moment.  They are fully aware that another person can have a completely different experience that has NOTHING personally to do with them in the moment.

When someone is not able to meet our needs the way we would like, a non drama stance would be to assume ... .that this person has their own competing needs or experience... .and that their experience is at least as valid as our own experience even if we don't fully understand it or agree with it.  WE KNOW that in our cells... .and we stay focused on problem solving and not on personalizing or assigning blame.

In a perfect world, reading the interaction with your wife... .

when she didn't respond to me the first time... .

I might very gently position myself to make sure I am looking her in the eyes but I would use "kind eyes"  and I would make an observational comment about her experience for a second... ."wow... .you look immersed in something there... ."... .and then gently repeat my need and intention to turn the light off so that my head stops pounding.   If it were me, I would likely say something that lets her know... .that my need may be right now interrupting her need and that I see this... .I would just acknowledge this... .b/c this often works wonders... .people respond well to being seen and acknowledged.   I would also front load my appreciation... .before the lights are out... .like "I really appreciate your understanding that I need the lights out honey"... .that kind of wording.  

Even so, the interaction you wrote about had minimal acted-out drama... .in large part b/c you are not picking up the rope and engaging IN it.  At least not overtly.  And that's huge.  Is is perfect?  No... .and it never will be.  

There is a lot of good work in this thread by members - thanks to everyone.  I think this is a model that all bpdfamily members should be gleaning from the material here.

I think as a woman, even tough I'm the "non", I do this a lot. If BPDh has been unfeeling, and hard to deal with all day, it takes me longer to "get over"(his words... .lol) stuff than it does him. What's weird though, is that he'll seemingly "get over" things but then hold a grudge for years(this to me seems far unhealthier). So, because I'm still hurt by his earlier actions, I might be less likely to jump to meet his demands or requests.

Maybe this is just a gender difference, per se? Or personality trait difference? I mean, I've had some horrendous things said to me, and while I can forgive, it might take a while to get there.

Is it possible that she was just still hurt or upset over the piano incident, thereby saw your request as you being "difficult"? Remember, pwBPD already have a skewed perception at times, so this could account for her actions. Plus, empathy(to your pain), is definitely not something pwBPD excel at... .