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Hello everyone 

I'm just fresh out of the FaceTime conversation with my fiance and have to go meet my daughter after school so this is going to be brief and I will follow up with more if people reply.

(For those of you who are new to my story you can read my other threads to get caught up.)

My fiance outright refused to have his current lawyer or his new lawyer call me to prove that he filed for divorce but he did say that he would provide me with papers by the end of the month so I have to decide if that's an acceptable compromise or not. In addition he said he was setting a boundary with me by telling me no. I was shocked when he said this but not surprised. It wasn't what I was expecting but again it wasn't surprising. I told him that is not what boundaries were and that we were going to have another conversation about boundaries. I also thanked him for bringing boundaries up because I was long overdue in setting some boundaries with him and I was afraid to do so because I knew I was going to have to defend them which would be no easy task. He said my request for his lawyer to call me was humiliating to him and as a result the answer was no. I felt like I was talking to my father. Not acceptable.

I know a lot of you have talked to me about setting a boundary with my fiance about what I would and wouldn't accept in a relationship and I haven't wanted to have that conversation with him because every time I try to he accused me of telling him he's lying. I never once said he was a liar, I simply said I need proof that he filed for divorce. He demanded an explanation and I told him I would not give him one. I told him that when he tells me what he needs as a dyslexic person or as a mastermind person (his temperament) or even as a person with an attachment disorder I do not question him. I told him I would appreciate the same respect when I tell him what I need.

I am not looking forward to this next conversation. I told my fiance I am very afraid to talk to him about boundaries because I have experienced him dysregulating in the past and calling me all kinds of names however I now know I need to have this conversation with him since he brought the subject up. I will be reading everything I can under taking a step backward as well as going to meetings, meeting with my social worker, talking to program friends. In addition I have an interview for a dbt class this week and I will tell the people that are interviewing me what I am working on in my relationship.

I hope to get some responses from you all. I find this board very helpful. As I've mentioned before it is the only place I can come to deal with the problems that arise out of being in a relationship with a person who has BPD traits.

I should add I also told my fiance I probably was walking on eggshells around him and he of course reminded me that he read the book and he was walking on eggshells too.   

I definitely feel like I am caught in a  no win situation here and I know that is a misperception of my mind. I know I always have a choice.  :light:

I feel your pain. The name calling is the worst. In the early days he would apologize and cry and beg me not to leave, now I am the problem and denies the awful things he says.  " I was there, I remember exactly what I said" is the usual retort. I even recorded him ( extremely bad idea) and he went haywire and tried to jerk me out of a chair 2 weeks post op from spinal surgery. I left for two months but being back he is seething with rage.

I definately feel it is a no win situation, and there is never a good time. He says all I do is look at him and I should try looking in the mirror. Handed me a letter from his lawyer saying I need to get representation to sit down and talk. I am taking antidepressants and specifically told him my psychiatrist said not to put one thing more on my plate until I stabilized on them, he said " we just need to catch up" and hands me the letter. I couldn't believe it. Also keeps telling me how poor we are yet was able to pay a $5000 retainer fee for lawyer! Nothing makes sense and he only hears what he wants to hear. Am going to attempt to talk with him again this weekend but am running out of hope.will keep you posted how it goes. Good thing I took over my daughters room after she moved out and I have a lock on the door

Hi Beacher, and welcome to BPD family!   I have found a lot of help here.

Thank you for replying to my post and I'm sorry you're going through so much pain. I will read your other posts to get more on your story.

Thankfully there was no name calling in this conversation so I guess that's a win. I have text messages and voice messages when my fiance called me names but I don't want to go back to those now. I just remind him of the ones that stung when I'm trying to tell him why its hard for me to talk to him.

Have you read through many of the workshops? I find them really helpful. I put the one on radical acceptance on my reading list and will probably post about that when I am done. I have done at least 3 sessions of DBT which is where I first learned about that. Have you done any DBT?

I did not realize I could go to dbt myself! Will have to look into it. 9 years and I feel like I am slowly melting away. Im a recovering alcoholic with 19 years sobriety and have always heard " you are a woman of dignity and pride and no one should make you feel less". I know this is true but this is just so painful because he is a wonderful person. Loves to call me a dry drunk and drug addict ( have had 2 spinal surgeries and pain management patient) and he knows how much I hate taking pain meds. They like to go for the jugular. Thanks for the suggestion

You are most welcome and you can definitely go to dbt yourself! In fact I think all non can benefit from dbt whether or not the pwBPD goes himself. I too do not drink or do drugs,  and I find that dbt really helps with emotional sobriety.

I think that is probably the hardest thing for women in recovery to be in a r/s with a man who has BPD, because we know it is incongruent with our sobriety.

My first husband was an alcoholic/addict and I ended up divorcing him. That was a radical step. There are many people who stay in marriages with alcoholics/addicts and are able to have their own life whether the alcoholic is still drinking or not. I think we could take the same approach with our BPD significant others. We can begin to build our own lives whether the person with BPD is improving or not. That is a lot of what I have gleaned from my reading on BPD. It is not easy and I do believe improvements can be made.

Oh Unicorn I'm sorry to hear about this! My ex also liked to twist therapy-speak around to make it look like she was healthy and I had a problem. I told her that I would end the relationship if she kept up her emotional affair, she told me that I needed to "respect her boundary with her friend." And making her walk on eggshells is one of her favorite accusations lately. I think maybe deep down they know the truth.

You DO always have a choice! I'm glad you're taking care of yourself with the DBT, etc. What do you think your options are now?

This again, I'm sorry you went through that. An emotional affair would definitely be a deal breaker for me. Unfortunately for me I think his friends, or the friends he has in common with his wife, would think I am the emotional affair.

I know my option is to accept what he says as being true for him and live with the fact that he won't have his lawyer call me but he will show me the papers before he moves out here. In the meantime I can keep working on myself in my meetings, with my step work, with my social worker, in dbt, with mediation, journaling, etc. We have another talk scheduled for next week about boundaries and I'm really dreading that one.

 

Have you talked with the Staying board about these conversations you've been having and planning re: boundaries, who if anyone is walking on eggshells, etc? I'm hoping you can get input from some of them, because all of my input should be taken with the huge grain of salt that I am less than a week post-breakup. After working soo hard in individual T, studying the Staying lessons, etc, and it just wasn't enough. So that's where I'm coming from and I'm sorry if this comes across as harsh.

My impression is that an undiagnosed and/or untreated pwBPD is in no shape to be having these "meta" conversations about the relationship, your communication, or your feelings. They don't really even think about the relationship that way, they just react to their emotions in the moment. Trying to have this conversation is just opening the door for him to twist things around and accuse you of doing the same thing to him. No wonder you're dreading it! 

Boundaries are for you to come up with, implement, and enforce yourself--not to discuss with him beforehand. You might eventually communicate the boundary to him (like "I will not be yelled at and I'll hang up if you keep yelling", but you don't talk about the fact of having a boundary. That kind of makes it seem like your right to set a boundary is up for debate--which it should not be.

And again I think you should talk about this with the Stayers, but... .What are you hoping to accomplish by talking to him about how you are afraid to talk to him or set boundaries? How are you hoping for him to respond?

Are you hoping that the conversation is going to make him respect your boundaries more or behave in a less scary way when you try to set boundaries? I know that would be great and would make things so much easier and less painful for you, but ... .you've been around here for a while, do you really think that's going to happen?

thisagain, I actually just moved back over here from the staying board after my discussion on triangulation got turned into a discussion on a love triangle.

Next week I'm going to have to set boundaries with him since today he chose to set boundaries with me. I had been putting off setting boundaries with him because I didn't want to have that conversation and now I see I'm going to have to.

My fiance actually has a sponsor he talks to on a weekly basis, and a therapist he talks to on an as needed basis and he's on medication. He actually got diagnosed with ptsd after his second suicide attempt which I intervened on. Of course I'm taking this all on good faith that what he says about his diagnosis is true as we are in a LDR and while I've never visited him, he's visited me many times. I know what he says about his sponsor, therapist and psychiatrist are true as I introduced him to all three of those people.

As to why I posted on the undecided board, boundaries is listed as an issue on the decision making guidelines board as opposed to the staying board so I figured that conversation would be more appropriate here.

In addition the moderators actually told me last week that my posts were more along the lines of undecided as opposed to staying so I'm being cautious on the boards now.  :)

No worries, I'm not the board police. Just thought they might have a different (softer, less bitter) perspective than mine. I know some of them wander in here sometimes though :)

(And don't be afraid of the moderators, I had a thread moved from Leaving to Undecided and I was all HECK NO I'M LEAVING! but got great input on Undecided too. We're all a big family here  :) )

What boundaries are you planning to set next week? How are you planning to communicate them to him?

I'm sorry I don't remember some of your earlier posts. Is the plan for him to move in with you after the end of this month? Or just move to the same town as you?

I was advised to set a boundary stating that I would be happy to resume the r/s once my fiance showed me signed, stamped and dated papers showing he filed for divorce. I didn't want to draw that kind of boundary with him but after he flat out refused to have his lawyer call me because it was humiliating to him I realized it was time to set my boundaries. He calls what he was doing with me and he is going to find out next week what setting a boundary is.

Its ok about not having read my earlier posts. I usually assume people are familiar with my story and it is good to know not everyone is. I do not believe in living together before marriage so he will not be living with me. Part of the problem is he has been talking about moving  out to be with me for over 2 years in addition to leading me to believe he had filed the papers from the very beginning of the relationship. I guess I should bring you up to speed.

In June I asked him to provide me with proof that he filed for divorce. He kept telling me I'd get my proof, that I should take his word for it, which he maintains to this day. Eventually I got tired of waiting so I looked it up myself and found no papers online. I brought this to his attention and he said either the country clerk or his lawyer didn't do his job. He said he talked to his lawyer and his lawyer said he filed so he's going to get a new lawyer. I asked him if he would have his new lawyer call me and he said no. So I have to decide if that is a relationship I want to continue to be in, hence my posting in the undecided board. My fiance flat out refused to give me what I want. That makes me mad for all kinds of reasons, not the least being that he is 16 years older then me and I've been trying to get the daddy/little girl dynamic out of our relationship for quite some time now.

Thanks for catching me up! I knew the general story but forgot what the plan was for him moving. It's good he's not planning to move in with you, that's the last thing you need right now.

When you say 'resume' the relationship--what is the current status of the relationship? Are you planning to break up with him next week, and have no relationship until he can produce the filed papers?

I never had much luck with setting or enforcing boundaries without causing a huge blowup, but I think it could help you to plan out exactly what you're going to tell him: what you expect and what you will do if your expectation isn't met. (Remember it's about you and the kind of relationship you will and will not have, not about him.) Tell him that, repeat it like a broken record, and be ready to hang up if he gets nasty.

Unicorn, hello.  I wonder if it would be useful to explore a different angle.  When you say you have never visited him there, and he has often visited you -- why have you not visited him?  Is that your choice, or his, or is that hard to parse out?

Unicorn, with much respect, it sounds like the moves you're making are reactions to moves he already did/didn't do, and not the moves you could more naturally be making. Some of which, as well as situational, you're right, may be FOO related. Answering the subject line of your post, I'd say it's not going backwards at all, it's taking a positive stand. A boundary isn't a line drawn in a game. It's acknowledging and accepting who we are, as we live it. The best kinds of boundaries are ones like honesty and trust, which can be far more inclusive than exclusive. You're a good example of someone who lovingly wants to be sure. Thank you for sharing with us.

The current status of the r/s is it is active, we see each other every day on ft, talk on the phone every day, text every day. I wasn't planning on leaving him and when he told me he was setting a boundary with me by refusing to have his lawyer call me he really took me by surprise. I wasn't planning on telling him we can resume the r/s after he shows me the papers that are signed, dated and stamped and after he told me he was setting a boundary with me I changed my mind. 


Right, I know the boundary is about me not about him. I was advised to set a boundary with him prior to the conversation and that is not why I was talking to him today. Today I was talking to him to find out what actions he had taken. When I asked him if he was willing to have his current or new lawyer call me and tell me he filed he out right denied me so I have to deal with that. I do not like being told no by my partner. It makes me feel like a child and because we have a 16 year age spread it makes it worse.

Hi patient and clear, simple answer? I can't afford to fly across the country and I have a 15 year old daughter. Complex answer? He told me at one point his wife wanted to do me bodily harm. So bottom line? His choice, because if he wanted to fly me and my daughter out there he could. He says he is breaking off almost all his relationships where he's at to come and be with me so there'd be no point in me meeting most people anyways. He's estranged from his family by his own choice and most of his friends knew him and his wife long term.

Thank you for your positive affirmation. The topic was actually related to how the board categories boundaries, as in taking a step backwards. I appreciate your point of view on what I am doing. Every time I bring this up my fiance becomes very difficult, accusing me of questioning his integrity, telling me his word should be good enough, telling me I'm humiliating him by asking his lawyer to call me so now I have to decide if I want to be in a r/s with a man who says no to me.

In terms of the FOO issues, my fiance is biologically old enough to be my father so its more an age related dynamic. I think its inevitable in age disparate relationship.

unicorn2014,

Sorry for the delay - we appear to be in very different timezones!

I'm glad you had the talk with him. May I ask why you FaceTime instead of see each other face-to-face?

I see you have now moved to the Undecided board. I hope you do not feel pushed in this direction by our feedback. Our goal is to help you look at this from a rational stadpoint, not to scare you away from him. As you yourself write in this thread: there's always a choice. That choice can be to stay, or to leave. You make that choice.

I can empathize with your frustration. To you - and to me - it does not seem like it should be such a big deal to prove that he's filed for divorce. Although at the same time, this is starting to feel like a way to derail you from other issues. Perhaps, in fear of abandoning you, he's creating conflict to keep you interested. Not logical or rational in our worlds, but maybe in his?

I can also sort of understand him when he's saying it would feel belittling to have his lawyer call you and confirm your fiancés truthfulness. Nevertheless, he's had many chances to prove this to you.

Other than that, he seems to (as you pointed out) have misunderstood what boundaries are meant to be. Asking him for something is not crossing a boundary. Forcefully penetrating boundaries ignoring his feelings and reactions would be crossing boundaries - i.e. you calling his lawyer and asking him regarding this without your fianceś consent.

Perhaps you need to step back for a while and consider the greater picture here. This has turned into a sort of conflict only involving your distrust regarding him filing for divorce. I think there's much more beneath, and with your best in mind: I also believe that, if you solved this particular conflict (i.e. him proving to you that he filed for divorce), you would come to realize that a whole lot of other issues are still unresolved.

This is a 'tactic' (be it conscious or not) used by pwBPD: They stir up trouble, and to cover that up, they stir up other trouble. This has you constantly trying to resolve whatever they're pointing at, dancing around their waving finger. Keep this in mind.

Suppose that you resolved this. Then what? You've put much effort into solving this particular conflict. Will your r/s be fine after that? Or will you still be in a world of conflict? I think you're asking for two things here (perhaps without knowing it yourself): 1. closure between you and your fiancé - ie him proving that he, indeed, was truthful. 2. some kind of "closure" between your fiancé and his past - ie him showing to you (with action) that he's done with his past behavior so that you can move forward.

I feel that - from what I've read from you - even if you were to resolve this, point two above would still not be resolved. How do you feel about this and how do you feel today?

This sounds like a really frustrating development.

One thing to keep in mind is that you don't necessarily need to announce a boundary if it ends up being something he can use to try to control or manipulate you.

You can tell yourself what the boundary is, and when he crosses it, remove yourself from the situation. If he asks you why you are no longer engaged, just say it's a situation you can no longer put yourself in, for your health/happiness/etc.  You don't have to explicitly say "this is my line in the sand".

One thing to consider is pwBPD can announce or state something, and it's not been done yet.  They have the intent to do whatever, therefore in their mind, it's already happened.  So in that case I've found it's best to passively sit and watch, and see if there are other signs/evidence that whatever they stated actually happened. Pushing them on it is likely to trigger them.

Although you are absolutely right, I feel that this works poorly with pwBPD. They do not understand boundaries well and often test and cross them. Setting a boundary without telling and then just leaving can destroy the pwBPD emotionally. They don't understand that they did something wrong.

Lonely child,

We are in a ldr, I'm on the west coast , he's in the east, so we have to FaceTime.


I will have to think about this. We have so many present day problems. He totally dysregulated after I asked him to have his lawyer call me. He's been really nasty to me ever since. Now I'm being forced to make a decision as to whether I need to set a boundary . He's calling me abusive, a bully, accusing me of dismissing and devaluing him, telling him I'm making things up about him. I can not take it. He doesn't care that my discovery that he didn't file triggered my PTSD. It's all about him all the time now. He's threatening me with reevaluating the relationship and who I am. It's really driving me nuts. He calls me when I'm in public and argues with me or sends me provocative texts. It's too much.

Anise said


That explains it and that's crazy! I can't take that. That's called lying.

I'm so sorry about the PTSD   My ex used PTSD as an excuse for her behavior, so then once I started developing symptoms (nightmares, panic attacks, etc) I thought it would make her care more and stop the behaviors that were triggering me... .obviously didn't work out that way.

Unfortunately I think that what you're describing here, is what you're signing up for by marrying a pwBPD. You can step out and take care of yourself, have your own hobbies, your own friends, etc so your life doesn't revolve around him 24/7. But when you're talking with him, he will make it all about himself and you can either adapt to that or risk dysregulation. He doesn't have empathy, but you still have to validate his feelings about something even if he's ignoring yours. Your normal human feelings and responses will be twisted around into horrible accusations against you, which as you're probably feeling now is even more hurtful than the initial hurt

I asked for a long time if there was a way to use SET or something to get my partner to understand how she'd hurt me in the past... .They pretty much told me that's not possible and all I can do is set up boundaries to try to avoid being hurt in the future.

Thank you this again, I definitely do not want a second high conflict marriage. I already had one and that's how I developed PTSD in the first place. I don't think I could survive a second one and now that I have a daughter it would be selfish to try.

In my case, when I explicitly state a boundary, it ends up being a giant red "Push Me!" button for him.  So for me, I have to find "quieter" ways to state the boundary, or not state it at all, depending on the situation.

This is my point. There are a ton of other unresolved issues - they are sure to be exposed even more once you resolve this particular one. My uBPDxgf often did something:

She would stir up trouble, and I would ask her to sit down and discuss it. She would say she wasn't ready, but we could do it "in a week." During that period, she stirred up even more trouble. I think this was some kind of deflecting tactic. I feel that your fiancé might be doing the same thing when he's saying that he will do it by the end of the month, or whatever he said.

From your replies, you seem stressed out. Are you ok?

After discussing it on the other thread I came to realize that this may not be the best approach. Someone suggested to me that we remain in a long distance relationship while he gets his affairs in order and I don't make accusations or demands on him. I think this is something much more in line with my temperament. I am not a no contact kind of person. I talked to my fiance about this and I hope he agrees to it.  If he agrees to that then I will go back to the staying board and work on dealing with the name calling: "bully" "abusive" "putting things on me". I hope that my partner and I can reach an agreement on the problem at hand and do what is best for the relationship. The current state of affairs has the relationship way out of balance. It got out of balance when I asked him to have his lawyer call me. We've been arguing ever since then. I don't have the strength to leave him which is why I moved to the undecided board and not the leaving board. I'm sure many other women would leave him over the names he called me. I'm currently reading about extinction bursts.

This is a very honest thing to say (before, you said 'pros outweigh cons'. Please take care of yourself and don't get caught up in trying to untie all the knots he's tieing.

This really resonates with me. I took my handle from a post I read on one of the BPD subreddits. Someone described a "discussion" with a wBPD like so:

You're not supposed to get it if you have a rational mind. Think of it like if someone with BPD spews language at you as if a bag of flour just exploded. You wouldn't be able to see for awhile till all the flour dust settles. Soon as most of it does they either stir up the dust or explode another bag onto you. You can't see anything, you're blind.

Unicorn, if you don't enforce a boundary, there won't be any extinction bursts. Instead, he'll learn that he can walk right over you whenever you try to set a boundary.

Lonely child, I'm not sure if it strength or desire. I think it would be kind of impulsive to leave a 3+ year r/s just because he told me no when I asked him to have his lawyer verify the truth. Now form flier asked what if there was no lawyer. That might be a reason to leave. However if I made a decision to leave it would not because of something I read on the board, it would be something that I talked about with my therapist.

Flourdust, after messaging him last night he decided to go no contact until he had something to show me. I wasn't ready to make that decision. It had been suggested to me that we remain in a LDR until he got his house in order and I make no demands or accusations. That resonated more with my personality. I had asked him to call me after he met with his lawyer in person. He has a much stronger personality then I do, which is both a part of the problem, and in this case a part of the solution. All I can tell you is when I looked up his name in the docket system and found nothing it caused a crisis, and then when I asked him to have his lawyer call me and he said it caused another crisis.

How do you feel about this? Have you told him that you are not ready to go NC like this?

Yes I talked to him this morning and I identified the problem at hand and decided on a course of action I can live with. I'm going to move back over to the staying board once I decide what issue I'm working on next. After discussing the issue I realized that putting the relationship on hold was not the correct boundary, remaining long distance until my partner got his affairs in order was the correct boundary, and it brought more things to light that will help the relationship move forward. I feel some degree of relief at this moment.

I'm glad to hear that!

Something to keep in mind: You say that your fiancé has a strong personality - I'm sure he has, but also remember that pwBPD need much guidance even though they appear to be very self confident!

Thank you so much lonely child, I really appreciate that. You've been very helpful to me. I look forward to seeing you on my next thread over on the staying board.

This is important advice.


Boundaries are much better lived out than explained.  pwBPD focus more on what you do than what you say (generally).

Stating boundaries usually ends up in an argument.

Living boundaries usually ends up with boundary working to protect the person setting the boundary.

Thoughts?

FF

Form flier, if I do not tell my partner I am putting the r/s on hold until he can prove to me he has filed for divorce then I am basically giving him the st which is a BPD behavior.

Some boundaries have to be stated, and the onus is on me to resist the extinction bursts. I've already decided that putting the r/s on hold wasn't going to work for me, and going no contact until my partner could confirm he filed for divorce wasn't going to work for me either.

I decided to follow  Turkish's  advice to remain in a long distance relationship until my partner could confirm he filed for divorce.

That is significant because my partner was planning on moving out here in two weeks and I put a stop to it. Once I review the boundaries lesson again I will start a new topic on my new boundary. I had actually decided with my former therapist a long time ago that I was not going to leave the r/s while it was long distance because I hadn't yet had a chance to see what it looked like on the ground. I've put a lot of time and energy into this r/s and really would like to see what it looks like without the distance as a factor. I've spent a lot of time in therapy talking about how challenging the distance is and the kind of problems it creates, so delaying his move is no small feat and I do believe that is a self protective boundary.

I understand how you see this.  Understandable to see it this way and want to avoid seeming "BPDish".  I believe if you make the focus about you and things you control, vice things that you want your partner to do the boundary will flow more naturally.

Very important to own these decisions vice making a decision someone elses "fault" or responsibility.

"I'm going to take a break because you (fill in blank)"

seems very different from

"I'm going to take a break to assess where my values and feelings are in the r/s"

"I need time to evaluate how I feel about things, I'll check in with you in a week.  Please understand this is about me and not you."

I believe both of my proposed states avoid any hint of ST.

I'm not suggesting that you say any of this, I'm hoping you see that there are ways to carve out time for yourself without "seeming" like you are giving ST.

Remember pwBPD (and many of us!) are very sensitive to blame.  Make it about you... own it... .take the power for yourself.

FF

Hi form flier, thank you for reply and it makes sense however I'm not at the point where I'm ready to take a break yet. I think I've failed to communicate the intricacy of my r/s. We ft every day. When I have a problem with my daughter, I call him. We actually have good times together like discussing food, diet, exercise, movies, books, etc. I know what I value and what I feel. That's what dbt and recovery are for.

I want to say a bit about dishonesty. When adult children are working on their character defects, dishonesty is one of them. Both my partner and I are adult children in recovery. So if I set a boundary with him for his dishonesty that is making a statement that I think I'm morally superior to him. When I was a child my mother used to call me a liar. When this issue came up I swore to myself that I would not treat my partner the way my mother treated me. My partner says he is working on getting a new lawyer and solving the problem. I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Looking forward to a discussion about boundaries after you review the lessons.

I get a vibe here that you believe a boundary is "about him" or "doing something to him" or that the boundary somehow speaks to him.

It's about you and your values.

FF

Hi form flier, I think what I'm trying to say is that it would feel hypocritical to me to pause the relationship for dishonesty because I think that anyone who struggles with any kind of codependency has the potential to be dishonest. I think that I have created a boundary that works for me by following  Turkish's advice. I think I need to move on to the next lesson on the undecided board.