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My take is that she is not going to put the money back.  I'm trying to think through... .without being reactive... .what moves I need to make in the next week.

I'm not ignoring "BPD communication rules".  I'm making a choice.  Sometimes you need to speak plainly and trust they are an adult and can sort things out for themselves.  Perhaps her mentor can help her sort this out.

There is nothing about what she did that is explainable.  The section 8 contract on the rental property clearly stated the amount the tenant was supposed to pay.  Her family ignored that part for over a year.  Then... when money got tight... .took my disability income to compensate... .with my wife's assistance.  I discovered this when trying to pay for medical care for my... .wait for it... .you guessed it... .my disabilities from military service.  15 cents was left in the account when I checked it.  She was aware of my appointment and need to pay for it... .although she likely would never admit that.  Sigh.

There will be changes from this... .just not sure exactly what... .yet.

Below is a draft... .hoping to meet with P on Monday... go forward from there.  P is firm this cannot stand... .boundary enforcement is called for... .of some sort.

It’s a wise decision to step back and think things through first.

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Why can’t you make a choice and employ BPD communication strategies? If she has BPD, or traits of, then it is unlikely that she thinks the same way as a nonBPD and therefore your trust that she can sort things out like you would may be misguided. 

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Would you have agreed to her sending money to her family or flat out refused? If she thought you’d disagree then the behaviour might not be preposterous. She cares for her family. I am presuming that she already knows your view of them, i.e. you believe them to be a bad influence?

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Can I ask why are you getting others involved? Are you hoping her mentor will back your view? Help her see the error of her ways or do you feel the need for support? Why can’t she discuss this with her family given they are part of the problem?

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You’ve introduced another topic here. Going from problems with finances to issues with her fiery emotions and mood swings. Given that pwBPD are emotionally sensitive she may react negatively to the perceived criticism (potential loss/abandonment to her) and she’ll have two things to try to cope with here.

Hey FF:

The letter won't help you, unless you want to escalete the arguement. You claim that the purpose of it is wanting to understand, but it seems it's rather to make her understand she's wrong. I agree with Larmoyant that mixing topics here (money, relationship, mood swings) doesn't help at all, it will only make her feel unloved and silly. If you want to treat her like an adult, then why don't you attribute her sending money to her family to a rational choice?

Instead of instructing her how she should act and feel, a letter like this should make clear statements: I discovered that you spent the money that was supposed for my medical care to your family. I don't like that at all and ask you not to do that again. Otherwise we'll have separate bank accounts. (Or go for it right now.)

She will rage either way, but one way is the fair one and the other one is unfair. I can understand that you don't want to use these doormat communication tools. I've become very sceptical, too. Still, a tool is something we chose for a special purpose. Here: Deescalating.

Here is "Conflicted or Deciding About a Relationship". We might not want to deescalate, but to test out how a relationship might work if we're not willing to walk on eggshells anymore. But try to keep it as fair and clean as possible. You want to make a decision about your relationship, right? Don't get twisted yourself. At the end of the day you need to know that you tried the best you could, and it still didn't work.

I like this thought a lot.  Sounds like your truth is that there will be consequences to how she proceeds with a direction right now, makes more sense to me to state your truth/what you have control of vs state what she should do.  Because in the end, the choice in how she acts will be hers anyway, and yours will be yours.

I wonder if blaming the situation on disability is a way to descalate and get things going in similar sirection.  For example, I believe there is a budget that was likely presented to disability in order for them to approve how much money you need. (I recall those paying rent get a greater amount than those not paying rent) Maybe add language that states that withdrawing monies for rent, medical, and personal care needs is in compliance with disability monies, while withdrawing for other reasons are a violation and is not justifiable.

It sounds though that you are wanting to be quite clear and direct, but just throwing that out anyway in case there may be room for it.

Keep the comments coming. 

Solid point on "mixing streams".  I need to pick a topic and stick to it.

The last time this happened... .we have the "never again" talk... ."again" has happened.

There is about zero chance of me ignoring this... .I DO want to do something clear and effective for boundary enforcement.

She can choose if she likes it or not.

Keep commenting... .I'll try to update the draft.

FF

VA disability money is based on a medical formula and nothing else.  So... I'm 100% P&T (permanent and total) so I get disability at a certain rate of pay.

There are other streams of VA money that are tied to my behavior or need... .those tend to be periodic.  That type of money was not in play here.

FF

You pretty much have my truth nailed... .solid advice.

I do get tripped up sometimes by my role as "head of household" and "my wife".  So it is in that thought that I was being directive.

FF

My DH is a financial advisor and is a proponent of his, hers,  and a joint account. Most of the time this works. Apparently it doesn't work for your family.

Are you going to close the joint account?

Also, is there a way to have a dedicated account for your property management needs? That could help make recordkeeping clean. It sounds to me as if there is a lot of money movement going on... .confusing.

So the communication to you wife could be as simple as "Our previous agreement on use of accounts was violated. As a result, I have closed the joint account, and this is how I will manage my accounts in future. Let's discus the future family budget and financial management based on separation of accounts."

I (we) her name is on some of them... .have 8 homes and various other investments.

There are a number of accounts, many of which she has joint access to,  for the express purpose of eliminating confusion and creating relatively clean records.

My wife stopped managing joint accounts over a year ago.  Rarely makes transactions in them... .and when I say she has previously discussed all transactions she has made... .especially to her parents... .I scanned the account and can't find one she didn't discuss with me ahead of time.

Sigh... .

FF

I see no other way.  I'll have to call the bank and see if she can be taken off... .or if she signs something... if she can come off.

There are so many things set up that would have to be switched... .it would be painful (but possible) to close.

Frankly... .the pain in the a$$ (aside from BPD silliness) of switching away from joint accounts was one of the reasons I choose to reconcile last time and leave the accounts open.

She was able to maintain the agreement for a bit over a year.

Big picture history:  Since 2009... .when BPD weirdness showed up... .we had 3 years of so of an agreement that went like this...

We only had joint accounts.  Neither of us had separate.  We agreed on master budget with a bunch of autopays.

Then we said

If you want to make a purchase that is less than $100... .assuming there is no time to discuss first... .go ahead.  If it is over $100... .must discuss first.

If either of us feels the other was making too many "under $100" purchases... .it was brought up... .talked about and a way forward found.

Worked really well... .until my wife unilaterly took out $30k... .opened her own individual account.  Gave a lot to her family.

Sigh...

FF

I get that you are drawing a line in the sand, and rightfully so. However, in reading your letter, there are points that feel inflammatory to a non, so you can imagine how they will be perceived by a pwBPD.

Perhaps you should write a very blaming, shaming, angry letter for us, just so you can get all that emotion expressed. I think that would be a fruitful exercise for you. Plus it would be fun for us to read too!   *)

Then you can write another one for your wife and we can read it and offer suggestions.

 
Please point out the places in the letter that you guys believe are needlessly inflammatory. 

You know me... .no promises that I will take them out.  But I do want to be deliberate and thoughtful in what I do.

That a line will be drawn... .or more rightly said... .changes will be made... .that is for sure. 

Sadly... .she lectured the kids about Daddy again this morning.  I stood her down... in front of the kids.

She left the bedroom where we were having a private conversation... .and lectured the kids about what Daddy was going to "do to her"... .financially.

I somewhat kept my composure, recorded the conversation and explained to her and kids that this was inappropriate for her to do and a matter of Biblical disobedience.

It took 2 or 3 rounds of that before she hushed and walked away. 

Nasty... .bad scene. 

Talked with P some about this today via phone.  Right now trying to stay disengaged... .heading to gym.

Sigh.

FF

Thinking out loud... .

I wonder if closing the joint account is premature and inflammatory.

Seems to me that... .
Step 1: would be to allow her to "resolve" and "undo" what she did by returning the monies. 

Step 2: based on step 1, decide how to proceed in the future re comingling monies.

I wonder if an approach of "playing dumb" vs treating her like she is "stealing" is better.  Such as: I can see how xyz may be confusing or unclear.  However, historically xyz is how both of us have behaved with this account.  Please return the money to the account and then we can proceed together discussing how the accounts are to be used by the both of us so that we are once again on the same page.

Just wondering if some "positive thinking/validating ish" verbage (aka neurolinguistical programming lang) may be less inflammatory than stuff that seems like you are in schema mode of punitive parent.

Just thinking if you can "corner her" into framing this as more like an oversight on her part helps her to rectify it with you a bit, vs the opposite, cornering her by language that sounds punitive may contribute to her being "against" you.

There is little chance that (practically) the joint account can be closed... .even within a month.  The resulting financial chaos from hurrying (BPD issues aside).

So... there is time to kick things around.

Then... .there is also the issue that several grand that gets deposited there is truly joint money (from rent).  It's really not "spendable" by either of us because by and large it is consumed by real estate expenses.

If I had to guess right now.  Money that is earned in her name goes to her account.  Money earned in my name goes to mine.  Somehow "joint" expenses... .electric, gas bill, mortgage for our house... .gets paid for.

Any chances that in the future she can take disability money for me... .hand it to her father... .and leave me with 15 cents... .and ohh... .I discover this when trying to pay my chiropractic bill... .  About zero chance I will ever "structurally" agree to manage money in that way... ever again.

The structure might not change next week... .I don't want to create more chaos.  But it will change.

"Never again... ." actually means something to me.  I understand (all too well) that it means something very different to pwBPD. 

For Grey Kitty... .(and others that remind me to stop making deals with my wife... .)... .the structure change of money means less deals and oversight... .

FF

I see no way to move forward without re-structuring the current accounts arrangement.

It brings to mind that saying, " Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

I need to go back and look at the original wording - there was language that I would find inflammatory.

But I'm not convinced there is a need for a letter. Just do what you need to do to protect your financials, then let her know you need to discuss future arrangements based on your set up for separate accounts.

She's posturing because she knows she did wrong. You know she'll have a few more hissy fits over it.  It's an extinction burst over a valid boundary enforcement.

By the way, we have the same agreement about purchases over $100... .many couples we know have the same arrangement, and it works. No big deal, just part of end-of-day conversation.

Yep... .

I was truly shocked when this happened the first time... .I was fairly new to the BPDish thing.  I still wonder at how something so easy... .can be made so hard.

Honestly... .I was saddened by the recent money caper... .but shock was not there.  I was a bit emotional... .because I generally know there will be extinction burst issues... and that won't be much fun.  But... .generally... I knew immediately what was going  to need to happen.

Right now... .I'm trying to get guidance on filling in the details of what will happen.  In my mind... .the big picture stuff was decided.

Yep... .no more fooling me... .   |iiii

FF 

Your recent abrogation   This type of behavior is preposterous.

your choices are symptoms The resulting fiery emotions consistently displayed by you since 2009 have contributed to chaos and destruction in our marriage and family.

 this latest abrogation of trust are you willing to finally gain understanding

 this abrogation of trust. 

 do not share this with your family.  Frankly, they are a bad influence on you and our marriage.

I don't doubt that what you've written is absolutely true. However, just bolding it and "trying it on" from the perspective of a partner has raised my blood pressure, and mind you, I cannot even imagine what a BPD mind would do.

It comes across as mansplaining and is quite demeaning in tone. I'm sure it conveys exactly what you feel. However, it's like igniting a bomb under her. And I don't think that's your intention.

I felt the inflammatory remarks were a bit much. I get that this is a big, hairy deal - I really get it. That's why I have a separate account; that keeps me a bit less angry when this kind of thing happens.

Specifically calling her emotions 'fiery' and 'rapid mood swings' is likely not to be productive to the primary issue right now, the financial situation. Also, I wouldn't bring her family's motives or actions into this because she is the one that you have the issue with. --ETA: agree with Cat Familiar

Can you deposit the disability income in your account? That would be fairly simple. Then 'your' money isn't available for her use. This might require a bit more coordination of financial matters as far as the household budget is concerned.

Also, boundaries enforcement has to be something that you can carry out by yourself without depending on her cooperation. Requiring her to get counseling is not a boundary that you have control over.

Good comments... .I do see value in sticking more towards boundary enforcement.

Yes... .changing direct deposit info is a relatively simple thing... .I plan on doing that tomorrow.

It's a bit up in the air if it will take effect this coming month... March 1st... or the following.

So... there is time to sort out financial gymnastics... .that could be especially interesting the first month or two... .

FF

When you have the "good" version of your wife, she understands all these things and doesn't cause a problem. Heck, that verison of her might even listen to you and might even respond constructively to that letter.

When you have the paranoid, angry, dysfunctional "version" of your wife, she blows all your agreements out the window... .and she would take anything vaguely like this letter as the start of a fight.

I don't see anything good out of sending anything at all like this to her.

Instead, start putting your income into an account she cannot access.

Try to protect joint rental income from her if you can; that is a bit more inflammatory.

You already TRIED talking to her about it, and didn't work. Putting it into a letter won't work either, unless all you want to do is tell her that YOU ARE PISSED AT HER FOR GIVING YOUR DISABILITY INCOME TO HER FAMILY.

And you really don't need a letter to tell her you are !@#$%!@#$ pissed.

It doesn't matter how logical this letter is, she won't be putting the money back.

So, just a question here... .of the rentals that are in your wife's name and that are mixed up with her family,

Do you personally have funds intertwined with her family? That is, the rental property that is in her name, are you personally invested in the equity?

Because if not, you could give her back the management of that property and be done with it, as well as her family's involvement, thanks so much for playing.

Or, start charging them a management fee for your property management activities.

Isn't there a banking option where it is husband AND wife signs the check, not husband OR wife?  Not sure if that would work for a joint account.

So... .this one rental is deeded in the name of me, FIL and BIL.  I fronted all the cash (not a loan) to purchase the property... .  Purchase was made back in 2008.  (One year before BPDish stuff showed up in my family) 

Backstory:  I've flipped between 40-50 homes.  I'd have to look at records to nail that number down more.  When you are doing a volume like that (sometimes with partners that I had complete trust in... .other Naval Officers) it's much simpler for only one party to own the property and when there is a sale... .the other partners get paid (technically their LLCs get paid) as contractors that "provided services" to the owner.    We tried joint ownership... .but it created more hassle than it was worth.

The idea behind purchasing this joint property was to "teach" BIL and FIL how to do this.  Perhaps I would be involved with them long term... .perhaps they would do it on their own. 

The property in question was to be the start of many.  Both FIL and BIL are very good at doing the work on houses, they just had no clue how to manage them.  (snippy comment from FF... ... ..they still don't... sigh)

I purposefully picked this house because it was only a few years old... .was a fairly cheap "flip"... .I think we put less than $10 grand in it.   Then the real estate market crashed.

So... it became a rental.  I had always heard of guys getting nice... long term stable income from doing "Section 8" houses.  I had never tried it.  Best way to learn is to jump in and give it a whirl. 

There was a discussion about selling the property after a couple years... but there would have been no profit.  As part of decision to hold on, FIL does cash out loan... .nice long term fixed rate... and then I got the majority of my equity back.

Long winded way of saying... .the property either needs to be sold... .or I need to be bought out. 

As you might imagine... .money management is such in her family that I would be shocked if they could buy me out.

FF

What strikes me reading all of this is the simple premise that you can control your own behaviour, but you cannot control someone else’s. Appeals to ‘higher authority’ included. No one can control BPD cycles or cancel them out. How can you reason with someone who has a different mode of thinking? You can’t. The only thing you can do is accept the situation for what it is and then make the decision whether or not you can live with it.

Four separate suggestions/questions here.

First, I think you should separate out the money issue entirely. If you think you can make a new agreement with your wife that will stick or is enforceable, then focus on that and do it in a BIFF manner. If you think you can't make that agreement, then make the changes you need to make for financial security, and inform her of them in a BIFF manner. You'll get blowback (either way, probably), but you know that.

Secondly ... .if the money issue was fixed, would you still want to write this letter? Because this is a letter about ending your marriage if it doesn't improve. And that's a valid thing to want, but I can't tell if this is something you've come to realize or if it's being driven by the current stress over finances. What do you believe?

Third ... .if you do want to write this letter, I agree with the suggestions above to reduce the mansplaining and triggering language. One effective way to do this is to turn the letter on its head and write not about her feelings and behaviors but about yours. How do you feel in your marriage? How are you behaving or acting in ways (granted, created by her destabilizing behaviors) that makes you unhappy? Write a letter about yourself.

Four ... .your letter is an ultimatum, but it lacks any consequence. I'm left wondering "Or what?" You wimp out by saying that you'll "prayerfully make decisions," but that's just evasive. If there's going to be a consequence, including the D word, then you have to say it.

Five ... .(oops, I'm over my count) ... .I also agree that even so the letter is unlikely to help out in the long run. Then again, if you've reached the end of the rope, it's fair to state your intentions clearly and let the consequences happen. You can at least check off one more box on the "I tried" list.

Good luck.

I'm obviously a letter writer... .helps me to see things.

I find it interesting that I've been kicking around a letter... .written about my feelings for most of the morning.

I'll take both copies to my P session tomorrow.

On ending my marriage... .  I've clarified lots of things over the past couple years in my head.  I'm obviously not a "stayer at all costs".

One of the "strategic moves" that I have been wanting to make for a while is to get a post nuptial agreement in place.  About money... .primarily. 

Now is not the best time... .due to court cases and other things that have my attention.

I'm definitely moving "my" money 100% under my control.  Perhaps at some future point I can soften on that stance in exchange for a post nup.

Sort of thinking outloud here...

FF

Just in case... .
It is possible that moving money 100% under your control does not lessen the tension and stress surrounding finances.  While your W may not be contributing much to the joint expenses, in my recollection, she is contributing something... .or at least half of her income from the joint investments contribute something.

It is possible that by attempting a postion of "you control your money, I will control mine" that she will find a way to avoid all expenses, simply using her money as disposable income only.

Idk, just saying that controlling your own money may not resolve the total issue, could create new issues, and well, you cannot control debt that the two of you inccur together. (Well, you can control your side of debt, just not hers.)

I wonder if there is a church financial planner person to meet with to get you two on the same page, vs it being you against her or her against you, you two would look to a third person for guidance?

FF wife,

I’m brokenhearted over recent events in our marriage.  As I prayed for wisdom for head of  household decisions, I kept coming back to the serenity prayer.  My only addition to this prayer would be “God grant me serenity to accept  the things I cannot change and don’t understand”.

I’ve prayed for courage to change the things I can.

1.  Money will be split into three pots.  Money earned by you, by me and by us.  (bank name) will continue to be deposit location for “us” money (real estate income).  :)etails to follow before the weekend.

2.  I will be asking Dr (Psychologist name) for a referral to a family therapist.  I’m deeply concerned about our children’s ability to form and sustain healthy relationships in the future.  It would mean a lot to me if we could come together in this effort for our children’s future relationships.

Love,

FF

This is kinda a known quantity with me.  I don't threaten.  Do this or else... .

I've always thought it was like waving a red flag at a bull... .and for the calculating ones (not really my wife)... .it allows them to "count the cost". 

Some people have expressed to me that it's weird that I don't give consequences.  Personally... .I hate being threatened or the "do this or else" thing... .So I don't do it.

Thoughts?

FF

Empty threats or coercive threats are bad. Consequences aren't the same thing.

How is your approach working for you?

I see where you are going.  I don't understand how you are connecting #1 and #2 -- I think FFwife will also be confused.

Are you trying to say that you want the family in therapy because you are concerned that the children do not have a healthy marriage as a model for future relationships?  If so, say that.  Otherwise, it's just hanging out there as an undefined second issue.

1 & 2 are related because she stomped around the house "preaching" to the kids about how I was doing this and that to her about money (projection it appears).

This was after our "behind closed doors" meeting broke up... .she took a private conversation public and "educated" our children on their evil father... .same broken record. 

Not a christian, taker of money, doesn't love her (yes... .she said that to our children).  She did finally hush... .but it was a public staredown over "biblical obedience".  That what she was speaking about was not for the children.

If I had to pick one issue... I would stick with family T. 

FF

I'm going to say ok.  When a "line" gets defined... .I see a lot of behavior that I would identify as running up to the "fence" and daring me to say something... .and then she says she didn't break a rule... .therefore I am victimizing her.

Or... .as in the case this weekend... .she blew right past the line.   "Never again will money go to your parents without mutual agreement"  Or she didn't/couldn't remember in the heat of emotion.

Hope this makes sense...

FF

I think I like this a bit better.  Great suggestion!

Thoughts?

FF

I like the revised version a lot better.  The original version didn't have enough explanation on why you thought it was an issue.

I agree... .much more clarity on the second version!

In the other thread you said that she is now taking action to put the money back into the account.  Does that change your response to her now?  Would you be better served by writing a letter explaining how her actions made you feel?  Embarrassment at payment refused, fear of trusting her to honor a prior commitment, worry about financial problems caused by insufficient funds.

The money is finally back in the account as of this morning.  Technically it was done yesterday afternoon but wasn't available until today.

This was after she said she would put it back Friday... .then put it back a week from now (this coming Friday), then texted me she would do it on Sunday... .  sigh.

Also (just because this is funny)... .she said she didn't give the money to her Dad.  I said I thought the account was only in her Dad's name.  Yes... but the money is "for" you... .so I'm giving it to you... .in my Dad's account.

Unfortunately... .I have to admit... .she got me with that one... .I sputtered and was obviously incredulous.  If that is the reaction she was after... .she got it in spades... .

Now... to Fian's question.  No... .the money going back doesn't change the response.  I suppose P could talk me out of it, but I doubt she will try.  She will certainly "tweak" my response.

My principle:  "Never again... " for me really means "never again... .".  My wife can claim she doesn't remember all she wants... .that's not a debate I will have with her.

FF

.

She put it back so she listened. Maybe it was about control, maybe not, but she appears to have tried to understand where you were coming from, yet you don’t give her any credit. Where’s the empathy FF? She has BPD, or traits of. You are an intelligent person, you know the dynamics at play. My ex abused and emotionally tormented me yet somewhere deep inside I know that this came from a place of enormous suffering. Your story makes me feel so sad for both of you.

If what you are primarily trying to go after is family therapy, I think you are solid in taking the position that the role model your children are seeing of their parents' marriage is not your definition of a healthy Christian marriage, and you want the family to work on that.

Frankly, it doesn't matter what the religious background might be, a marriage in which marital conflict is played out publicly (whether in front of children or shared with the couple's parents) is not the ideal.  My parents established a Christian family, and my former in-laws were Jewish, and neither set of parents would have carried out private conflict in front of the children (short of something mundane like, "I asked you to stop at the dry cleaners today."

Agreed. This isn't a religious issue, but it IS one that therapists and courts take pretty seriously. My biggest leverage with law enforcement, therapists, and the judge and custody evaluator has been that my ex won't (or can't) stop creating conflict in front of the kid.

None of these professionals care what we do to each other in private, as long as no laws are broken, but they take exposing children to this behavior very seriously.

What if you were just to visibly start recording her when she does it in front of the children?  That might make her pause.

If you want to send her some kind of letter, point #1 (not putting your money into a joint account) is valid, and it sounds like you are already taking actions to protect yourself financially, by both doing that, and reducing (as much as possible) your joint financial exposure to her family.

I'm not a fan of "kitchen sinking" things, so even though point #2 is bugging you as a direct result of issues around point #1, I don't see a good outcome from including it in the same letter.

Why do you need any letter to get family therapy, if you can arrange it and pay for it.

New draft after P appointment.  P... .like GK... .was against mixing messages.  Asked me what was most important... .clear answer is conflict in front of kids.  That I a moving to stop or limit their exposure.

Still moving forward on money stuff... but it is less important... .and I have time.  Changes may take hold at start of next month, but more likely start of the next.


Thoughts on this letter?



FF wife,

Thank you for putting the money back.

I’m brokenhearted over recent conflict in our marriage that our children have been exposed to.  I prayed for wisdom for head of household decisions.   

We should be aware of the role model that we are portraying for our children and how that will affect their view of a Christian marriage.   Pastor (name) instructed us not to have conflict in front of our kids until we can model Christ centered reconciliation.  Sadly, we are not able to provide this model.  It would me a lot to me if we could come together in an effort to protect our children’s future relationships. 

I will be asking Dr (name) for a referral to a family therapist so we can gain a better understanding of the effect of conflict on our children and strategies for healing.

Love,

FF

Having only one thing in the letter is far better.  |iiii

That said, when you have the good version/mood she doesn't do conflict in front of the kids, and knows better... .when you have the paranoid, dysregulated version/mood, does a request like this work?

Before you send the letter, let me ask you what your goal is... .

What ACTION are you hoping your wife will take when she reads it?

How likely do you think she is to take that action?

It may be that the best that comes of family therapy is an agreement on what FF will say to the children to mitigate the conflict.  THat is, if FF wife can reach a point that she agrees the conflict is unacceptable and that it is best that FF step in and shut it down.  could be highly unlikely.

"Come together for our children's future relationships... ." Other than that... .I won't be giving any direct "control" of my wife... .in other words... .I won't be the "expert".

I WILL do whatever a family T tells me to do... .whenever my wife starts "teaching" them odd things... .especially about me.  

My P has several colleagues in mind that would be excellent... and she can consult with.  This means we can skip the first month or so of a "brand new case" where a new T is trying to figure out What the heck is going on.  Another reason that having a senior P is a blessing to me and my family.  Very likely the strategy will be to send kids to their rooms.  More importantly is to try to defuse earlier.  

I won't say this... but wife can refuse to go to family T.  She can try to block kids from going.  The important part is that I will be going and will take whatever steps needed to take my kids.

Hopefully... .the calm rational wife that I sometimes have will realize that she has painted herself into an undefendable corner.  

Think of how would look to a judge.  Judge... my wife was teaching my kids that I am not a Christian, is also recorded teaching them xyz about me.  I'm concerned about the impact of this conflict on their future relationships.  Will you give me a court order so I can get my kids to family therapy?

I hope it doesn't come to that, but there is also a saying in poker... .you have to play the hand you are dealt.  I've been drawing from the deck hoping for a better hand for a while and honestly, I think I have a strong one at the moment.

This is about my kids futures... .I choose to act to protect that.

Last thought for now:  P and I had discussion about mentioning Biblical Counselor.  Basic thought was that if we mention one of them... .we should mention both.  Also to clarify that BC has spoken clearly about conflict in front of kids... .which he has.

FF
 

Yes... .something along these lines. 

We all know that nothing I do will be "right".  I am seriously interested in the "best" way. 

This past Sunday there was a public standoff... .that I "won" by telling my wife it was a matter of Biblical obedience to stop talking about this in front of the kids.  Then several times I said the word "hush".

She did eventually comply.

P has said it would likely have been better for me to say that Pastor XYZ said this was not for kids to hear.  "Kid's... .go to your room and shut the door".  Basically to focus on controlling kids... .rather than my wife.

Again... .know there is no right answer.

FF

FF, I see your situation with your wife as being stuck in between two models of the world, and her flipping from one to the other.

In one, she's a "modern" woman, working and having her own autonomy--and her own opinions.

In the other, she wants you to be the head of the household and for her role to be supportive and subservient--and obedient.

It's like she can't agree to one or the other and that's got to be really confusing to you.

I like what your P suggested--about utilizing the Pastor's direction. It bothers me to think that you would tell your wife "Hush" in front of the children. To me that's not good role modeling in front of them; it sets the boys up as feeling like they're more important than girls and the girls will feel like they don't have a right to their opinions in front of boys, particularly their future partners.

Uhm, let me re-phrase that: "Be healthy and stop dysregulating, and being paranoid about me for our children"

Can you see how asking for this won't do you any good at all? Either she is already there, or she's unreachable and unpersuadable. There's not much inbetween with your wife!

You said it here:

How's that hoping for the calm rational wife been working out for you so far? 

Focus on this instead:

You state it in negative, but at least there are two concrete actions your wife can take:

1. Go to family T.
2. Support (or at least not resist) your children going to family T.

Rethink what you want to say, perhaps using techniques like S.E.T. asking your wife to agree to one or both of these things directly.

I like what your P suggested--about utilizing the Pastor's direction. It bothers me to think that you would tell your wife "Hush" in front of the children. To me that's not good role modeling in front of them; it sets the boys up as feeling like they're more important than girls and the girls will feel like they don't have a right to their opinions in front of boys, particularly their future partners.

I know that your marriage is modeled on a type of Christian marriage where the husband is designated as the leader. At times, your wife seems OK with that, while at other times, she's openly hostile and disrespectful of your position.

What concerns me is that your daughters are observing/learning a dysfunctional dance and I think you're absolutely right to find a good family therapist.

My concern extends to the thought that in dating relationships this might lead to them not feeling secure in their own right to their bodies; you know that teenage boys, on hormonal overdrive, can be very persuasive. If girls believe that men are always to be obeyed, this could lead to problems... .

Yep... .I talk a lot about that with my girls.

In fact, I present it as "the most important "earthly" decision you will make in life... is who your husband will be"

Because... .that choice will determine a lot about how their lives will go and how their children (my grandchildren) will be raised.

We talk a lot about women "lowering their standards" and the impact that has had on society.  It should not be easy for some boy (yeah... kinda a tone there... .) to win my daughters heart. 

Unfortunately... most guys will figure out the "minimum" and stay there.  Why try harder than you have to.

Kinda got off track there... .but yes... .the gap between what I want and try to teach to my daughters... .and what they are seeing... .is horrifying to me... .

FF

I think there may also be a disconnect with what you really believe and want to live out in your life and what you are doing, especially related to beliefs and practice of your faith. I know it can be tempting to use the system to your benefit - the ends justify the means kind of thing. But the things that we do form what we believe as well.

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