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I have been deceived... .again regarding my children being left with my Sister in law.

I am going to pick up child then I will call my wife.

Pickup in about two hours.

FF

Praying for wisdom for you during this difficult journey.  May God bless you and guide you today and always FF.

I have my daughter... .wife is flipping out.

FF

Sending you calming thoughts... .

Bad scene here... .kids crying... .asking me questions.  It is all come from the BPDish  stuff they have been fed by their Mom.

The things they have asked... .it is heartbreaking.

FF

I am so sorry you and the kids are experiencing this.

Praying for wisdom for you.

The immediate issue has been calmed and there are some very confused children that now have some insight into "the other side" of a BPD relationship.

I could see the wheels turning in their brain as they considered the impact of the new information.

Very direct questions.  Why won't/wouldn't you pay Papaaw for the work he did?

Question to ponder... .why would an owner get his money for a sale that didn't happen yet?  Especially with the other owner saying he didn't agree with taking the money... .what is that called?

They said the word... .stealing.

There were other direct questions with false premises.

Why did you ban cousin xyz from our house?

Answer.

Did cousin xyz lie to me about what he brought into our house and exposed our 4 year old to?    They answered yes.

I made it clear that I invited him and his family you have a talk with me about returning to our house and if they declined to talk... .did I ban him?  

They understood and saw the point of view.

Other similar Revelations.

FF

Taking a breather to reflect.

So, I was talking to S14 and talking about Dr No (007).  He was clueless and started talking about actors that had played 007... .and I said which one... .he said... ."you know... the British guy... "     I found this funny... .and sometimes call my brother in law (technically ex bro in law since there is divorce) to have S14s uncle help chide and joke with him about "the British guy" and 007. 

To my shock... .D11 answers the phone.  Well... .I'm speechless... .she is in our home state (in my mind and in my agreement with my wife... that was where she was going a week ago.)... .yet she is now in a state almost 8 hours away... .several states away.

Bro in law quickly realizes I have no idea and fills me in.  My wife is in home state and D11 has been left in care of SIL.  The last couple visits my wife and I had signed parenting agreements stating that my wife would stay there and keep eyes on kids.  It is a well worn path... .there was no "mistake"... ."oops... forgot to call FF".  Direct... willful deception and abrogation of a parenting agreement.

So... .I could be there in 2 hours (I'm working on an investment house and supporting my Dad's stroke recovery).   So I call my P... discuss wisdom of tacking action to get my daughter back and decide to do so.

The hornets nest came alive after I picked up daughter and BIL "failed" to return D11 to sister in laws care when SIL "demanded" it.

Wife packed up older kids and started driving... .8-9 hours to come get daughter to return her home "as we planned"  (with me saying... .yeah... .a week ago)

Typical BPDish texts and phone calls that can easier and easier as she drove.  By the time she got here she was "love bombing". 

I stayed neutral and got her to give me her word we would focus on "solving the issue between" us in writing (email) after reflecting and praying for a day or two.

My current plan is to also send letters to BIL and SIL regarding making sure everyone is kept in the loop on childcare decisions and no one is "dictated to".

There is a current "flareup" in the divorce drama in BIL and SIL and one of the cousins has moved out.  It appears to me D11 was given to SIL as "bait" to try to entice the cousin back to her mothers house.

With all that dysfunction on display, I would never have agreed to her being left there... .my wife knows this.  She knows that any compromise leaving her there would have been heavy on accountability and BPDish types typically run from accountability.  Especially SIL.  It's never her fault.

FF

Whole thing sounds pretty... .idk the word... .discouraging is not strong enough.


Can't imagine what possibly would be "resolved."

Curious... .
What would be your goal of this "conversation?"


What was happening before this? Did she try getting your attention in some other way and fail? Or what do you feel caused her to defy agreement you both have, other than her wanting her way, because she also has a choice to stir drama or not, and seems drama was on her menu.

Just am wondering these things cause engagement with you via these talks and drama could possibly be it's own reward, idk tho.

Seems like you are once again being strongly lured by her to play a "punitive parent" schema role.

My current plan is to ask her... allow her space to explain the "model" she was using to make her decision and where she learned the model.

Apparently she just finished "mentorship"

So... .my Biblical model to make this decision was... .

Vice "attacking" her or being "punitive".

She does seem to lure me into that role.

Also considering writing letters to both in laws and copying my wife. 

Obviously will discuss all of this with P and with L.  Letters are to offer pathway to discussion /reconciliation and to create a verifiable paper trail for possible future court filings.

I do need to be vigilant about any move I make with regards to drama triangle.  Is my move "inflaming" drama or is it serving a useful purpose?

FF

Am always curious what your P says cause you always seem to get sound advice.

Is the parenting agreement you two signed actually a personal document or legally enforcable one?  I assumed it was not something you could call police on her over and have them enforce her handing kids over... .like when persons are divorced.  (Which they often say its a civil matter anyway and leave if ex spouse won't hand over kid willingly.)

Yet I hear ya if you are making a paper trail as to your efforts at coparenting and attempts at getting the two of you to stick to agreements.

I can't imagine, other than the paper trail, what her reasoning will be in regards to how she arrived at that decision.  I can only imagine... .deflection, blame shifting, victimizing herself explaining why she is entitled to make a solo decision, etc.
(Yet, I hope I am surprised)

So unless you suspect another response... .

How are you prepared to respond to her response?

Sounds pretty wise tho to keep it email and all, this way you are keeping a distance from her reactions, and hopefully it is a format that would lend for her to be most successful at being thoughtful if she so would choose to.

I'm not so sure about writing the in laws... .would personally hold off on that and see what P says.  Seems to me that if she drops kids off there, not fair to teach them to parent her by making decisions "for her" by refusing kids.  Seems her responsibility, and in a way, treating her like a child by speaking about this with them... .depending on how you go about it.  But even making them aware of you two having an agreement, imo, is drama, and between you and FFw.  On the otherhand, doing so to pick up daughter seems necessary... .but shaaring marital info as a prophylactic seems shifting responsibility from her (or you both) to them... .but idk, could be effective to keep kids safe, but also could feed the dynamic that your wife is not responsible and that you are controlling.  Hence, am interested in P take on this.

FF, from reading your posts, it seems your wife agrees to a "rule" with you- and then you feel surprised when she doesn't follow the rule she agreed on, even if the two of you mutually agree on a Biblical rule.

This seems to be the nature of BPD- a sort of black and white world where the image is what she agrees to- she really sees herself in a Biblical marriage, a good Christian. Then, the impulsive side.

I see something similar in my BPD mother.  The "ideal" is there, then there is the slip up. We are all human, and we make mistakes. What is missing is the accountability. If the slip up is blamed on someone else ( victim triangle here)- then there isn't accountability. Without accountability, there is no learning from the experience- and it repeats itself.

My mother is, in general, a good person. I think she follows the "rules" most of the time. She wouldn't do something really bad. Yet, she can lie straight face to me and then say " I never lied to you". She recently left some ugly messages on my phone and when I referred to what she said, swore she never said that- and they are right there on my phone. My way of going about these things is to be accountable, but she does it differently.

I call this the "dry erase" - the way to deal with a mistake or a transgression is to somehow decide it didn't happen. It's confusing because it did happen.

I expect that your wife probably does follow your agreements most of the time, then you are shocked when she doesn't. She probably follows the rules at work, and is a good mom a lot of the time. This is the confusion of BPD. We loved it when "nice mom" was present, but then something would change- and she'd then become nice mom again afterwards. It doesn't make sense to those of us who don't do this.

I wonder if instead of things being chaotic when your wife breaks an agreement, that you just assume it is going to happen from time to time, and have a plan for that.

This is generally the mindset.  I express it this way.

5 years from now... .my wife will likely still be doing shocking things. 

I need to be authentic and real... .and not suppress feelings.  So... .I should be shocked and should express that to her.

By the same token... .I shouldn't "freak out" and do wild and crazy things.  Don't add to the crazy making.  Steps likely will need to be taken and in evaluating those steps I need to focus on not engaging in drama, protecting children's emotional health, upholding personal and family boundaries.

So... .in this instance my first priority was to get my child into a safe situation. 

Then... I communicated with my wife.   4 phone calls over 5-6 hours.  All were ridiculous... .all were ending by me for boundary violations.  However... .relatively speaking... .things were better each phone call.  As were texts as the night went on.

By the time she got here... .she tried to "butter me up". 

While emotions are raw... .for both of us... .  I saw no benefit (nothing good can come of this) of "hashing it out". 

We had a number of conversations about other issues that went fine.  My wife obviously wanted to leave the room and consider it "over".

I wish I could remember verbatim what I said... .but it went something like this (my intent anyway)

"We need to address the differences between us.  I recommend that we agree to reflect for a couple days and address this via email.  If you want to discuss this now in person, then we can go to breakfast and discuss this privately."

She chose to discuss via email.

Likely will send her something tomorrow night... .after my appointment with my P (via phone due to location).

I did talk to P several times as things were unfolding.  She generally blessed my moves... .nudged me a couple of times for a slight difference.

Interestingly enough... .she pushed the phrase  "FFw... .I'm shocked... .there are no words to describe... .xyz"

I didn't belabor that point... .but didn't hide it either. 

FF

I'll be blunt: this is enshrining JADE as a conflict resolution tool ... .when it typically has the opposite effect.

Think of using BIFF instead. BIFF stands for Brief, Informative, Friendly, Firm.

Your goal is to not have your kids left alone at your SIL's house (or to be there at all, it's not clear to me). THAT is what you need in writing. You absolutely do not need to go down the rabbit hole of writing down and debating rationalizations. And ... .your demand for that is an example of pretty controlling behavior, the kind I often see from my BPDw: "You screwed up! Now you must present your thinking and defend it while I pick it apart on the stand!"

What you want for a paper trail (and for clear communication) is a simple statement of what behavior is not allowed to happen.

FD,

I completely understand and "see" your point of view from a "secular" point of view.

From a conservative Christian point of view, I'm trying to "gently at first" confront my wife about this.  While certainly blending lessons from bpdfamily.

There is no "model" in Christianity, that I know of, that says the wife is the leader of the home and should exclude her husband from decision making (or even awareness) about "raising" children.  In this context, deciding who may care for a child for a week and what that child will be "exposed" to without a parent present).

Big picture:  I'm not a "persecutor" of my wife (even though she may perceive that) and I'm also not in the business of "saving" her from the natural and logical consequences of her actions.

I can imagine there will be great distress as she fancies herself to be a  "super Christian wife" yet can find no basis in Christianity for her actions.  That's her problem to solve, even if she solves it badly.

She can either change her ways and attitudes or continue with distress and likely try to blame others. 

My job is to not take blame that is not mine and not enable her to easily duck this.

In the past I've been ok with my kids being there with a parents eyes on.  Still considering the future.

FF

 I need to be authentic and real... .and not suppress feelings.  So... .I should be shocked and should express that to her.

By the same token... .I shouldn't "freak out" and do wild and crazy things.  Don't add to the crazy making.  Steps likely will need to be taken and in evaluating those steps I need to focus on not engaging in drama, protecting children's emotional health, upholding personal and family boundaries.


Good job with this!

Actually, I consider it a pragmatic point of view. If you want an outcome, focus on the path that has the greatest chance to get you to that outcome as directly as possible.

In this case, your primary goal is to protect the kids by keeping them out of an unsafe environment. Your outcome has to be behavior change on your wife's part that achieves that goal. Does choosing instead to enter into a debate about the thought processes of a disordered person get you to that outcome? Christian reasoning doesn't provide a buffer against disordered thinking (as you well know by now), unless there's divine intervention.

Thanks!

Although credit needs to be passed along to P... .and to you guys.  Especially for the drama thinking.

Here is the initial operating theory.

My wife saw strife in my sisters family (sisters 14 year old daughter moved out to live with Dad).  Wife decides to rescue.  SIL is "victim".  14 year old daughter is persecutor. 

I'm likely to be seen as persecutor and while I shouldn't avoid action because they will see me this way... .I do need to consider this angle.

FF

I would even say reasoning ( from a number of perspectives)  - doesn't provide a buffer with disordered thinking.

Also I agree that action on your part can be seen as "persecutor" but a boundary is a boundary.

Said another way.

My wife professes to use the Bible as the rulebook for her life. 

It will be interesting to see her point to where the Bible grants her the "stewardship" or "authority" to take the action she did.  I'm sure that will be an interesting post.

If it were a "less clear" principle or my children's welfare was not at stake... .I would certainly take the path of "minimum energy".

I also have a goal of creating a paper trail, while hoping I never have to use it.

FF

There's the split- what your wife professes and what she does.

We are all that way to a certain extent- we all slip up from our ideals.

The difference is how we handle the slip ups- as I posted in my other post.

One is we learn from them, then don't make the same mistake.

The other is we don't learn from them- dissociate from the experience, it didn't happen ( which allows the person to believe they are their ideal versions of themselves. )

Another mindset I need to keep as I consider how I communicate with her is that it is unlikely there will be a "poof" and she sees the light moment.

I should likely focus more in the conversation on places where I can "nudge" things in a better direction and then declare victory and move on.

FF

Hi, FF!  Just wanting you to know that I am thinking of you. Clearly, as I look to you for guidance so often, I am not a person with words of wisdom; however, I have plenty of heartfelt compassion and prayers to send your way.

I see this approach to attempt to shine light on the situation... .as your behavior and words matching the expectations you have for the values and marriage you desire (and she says she desires)... .and your perserverence and commitment to that. (Not to mention long suffering)  

This seems opposite of "punitive parent" mode and you treating her like an accountable adult.  Just because she doesn't respond as an adult doesn't mean you should quite setting that expectation... .and keep looking for this behavior from her... .discussing things with her as your partner.

Seems to me, this is only way I can think of to uphold ones values in face of this situation.  Cause not bringing it up, makes it seem not important and is where many folks end up expecting less from their relationship, and values begin to errode.

I think people with BPD are incapable of having those "poof" moments, and probably nudging works better, and definitely moving on works better.

I rely so much on your advice and wisdom that I wanted to seek out your posts. I am praying for you, FF. <3

Thanks... .about to meet with P via phone.  Working on email to open the "conversation" this evening.

I've had a couple conversations with my wife about other matters that went fine.

FF

Here is what I sent her this morning.

P was generally in agreement with "pausing" and going to email.  The was emphatic to NOT send her scriptures or "suggest" how she was or should be thinking, as I was planning on doing. 

I get the thought... .step 1 is let her describe her thinking.   

We've had several completely normal and productive phone conversations about other matters.  My guess is she wants to take the eraser to the whiteboard.   

Also had discussions with P about avoiding being the "persecutor" or "playing" on the drama triangle.  She said at some point in the future I may need to assume the persecutor role (because of boundaries) but for now, lets see where she wants to go with this.

P and I generally agree that wife wants to rescue and has been in that mode for a while.  Sister in law wants to be rescued and my niece that moved out of my SILs house is the persecutor (bad one). 

This is the longest "defiance" my SIL has ever experienced from her childrend (niece move out), so it will be interesting to see how the roles shift.  With a warning from P to not "needlessly" get on the triangle with them.



FF

Wow! |iiii
Nice!

ff The way you put that discussion was amazing. I genuinely hope it all works out for you, and I am sorry you are having such an issue. That sounded like a very complicated scenario! I wish you peace though in its resolution. You are always so helpful to everyone on here. Sending you   and prayers!

My pwBPD likes to make things complicated.  I need to constantly remind myself to make things simpler.


My wife and I both profess to be Christians.  (I believe she is... .that her belief is authentic).  We both profess a "plain reading" of Biblical text... .(no gymnastics to prove xyz is "ok".  As a husband and wife we jointly decided that D11 needed a break and would go back to our home state to be a kid for a while (vice helping me with rehab project and support my Mom and Dad while Dad is working on stroke issues).  My wife goes to a state a couple hours from me and decides to leave her there for 4-5 days... .before I just kinda "stumble upon" the knowledge that she is there.  I drive to that location and pick up my daughter, preventing SIL from acting as a parent to her... .or in anyway being in charge of her.  My wife flips out.  My wife claims "you can't do this without asking... " (yet... she can ... .yeah... you guys get it)

Bottom line:  The Bible, read plainly, sets up a patriarchal system of power in the family.  You can believe it... .or reject that.  How you get to be a conservative Christian woman and be head of the household... .?  I haven't the foggiest idea.

Likely will be entertaining to watch her explain it...

FF

Well obviously what is good for her isn't good for you. That's the hypocrisy in the whole situation. It gets very frustrating.
It definitely is interesting when they try to justify their actions. It is always completely self-serving. I guess that is the nature of the condition.
sometimes it is hard just keeping up with their crazy-making rationale.

Hang in there!

I think your reply to your wife shows both love and restraint.

The challenge is for her to find a Bible passage that supports her actions. In a way- since you both adhere to the same interpretation of the Bible, it puts her in a bind to find one.

I think you are dealing with the split between the idealized version of oneself and the actual version. We all do this, but I think the person with BPD tends to be more split- when they don't meet their ideal versions, they "erase" " dissociate" from the part of themselves that did not or project that on to someone else. They don't fully accept themselves as the humans they are.

Your wife professes to believe what the two of you believe about religion and marriage, but her actions didn't meet that expectation. Holding her accountable due to the shame triggering is a tricky task. Yet, you need to protect your kids.

FF, you have three related issues here, and there are three different solutions:

1. Your wife will be 'reasonable' or 'good' and she will make agreements, and behave well. Then she will become paranoid and 'bad' and she will behave badly and/or break agreements in any way she has the power to do so.

Especially when triggered by drama from her FOO. Especially involving money or your children, which you have limited ability to stop her from doing in advance. (Also by doing things like interfering with your sleep, which you can and have prevented by boundary enforcement)

Solution: Radical acceptance. This is who your wife is, you cannot change her. (Solution part 2... .clean up the mess, as needed... .)

2. She just did this with your children, taking them away against your previous agreements, etc... .

Solution: Take action to protect your children from further time with these people. Already done, if I read this topic correctly.

And you will have to do it again someday. (See problem #1... .)

3. Arguments with your wife about the Biblical justification and/or distorted things (which she probably believes) that she told your children.

You handled the questions from your kids well, it sounds like.

I think you can handle the Biblical discussions with your wife just fine, and I'm not in a position to advise you on how.

Keep your eye on the big picture, FF. This will be at best, a very temporary solution to problem #1.

This can be a tool for you to fix immediate issues, if you use it that way.

Depending upon your children's involvement, it might be a tool to teach them.

Don't let yourself get led down a rabbit hole with your wife, believing that you will somehow magically 'fix' anything permanently with her this way.

As long as you keep this productive, and end it when it isn't, you will do well.

Honestly, asking your wife to defend her biblical model feels like you've stepped back onto the drama triangle as a persecutor. Claiming power seems a bit like that, too.

For me, I don't expect my husband to change or to reliably do things as a parent when I'm not here. Following through on what he has committed to doesn't necessarily happen. So, if something is important, I have to ensure that it is done by me or someone else who is reliable. Since I've made that shift, my daughter seems to feel more secure.

So... .empath... .any thoughts on how to address this without being on drama triangle?

FF

What is your goal going forward?

No kids left with SIL without a parent.

FF

You cannot control what your wife and their other parent does, and she has broken your trust in this area. So what can you do to ensure that this happens that doesn't involve her buy-in?

Off the top of my head, you might try ensuring that children are never in same state as SIL unless you are also with them.

Goals going forward.

NO kids alone with SIL.

No enablement of hypocrisy in my wife's approach to religion and marriage (we are conservative Christian) and family decision making.

I am aware that I can't control her.  That is much different than giving her a pass which is much different than "persecuting" her.

I do want to avoid drama triangle stuff.  I see holding a person accountable, enforcing boundaries and (as a result) being perceived as a persecutor... .very different than actively choosing a role of persecutor.

So... .she may see me on triangle.  I'm hoping with you guys and P that I don't choose to play a role there.

FF

Personally, I see the triangle as the way someone with BPD perceives and acts in a relationship- whether we intend to play those roles or not. I think they tend to stay in victim mode with their perception. The triangle can be acted out with any number of people- even one person. For instance- your wife knows you don't want her to take the kids to her sister. So it plays out this way ( you as Persecutor)

Wife (Victim) "FF is so mean, he won't let me see my sister. She wants me to visit and I feel bad"
Wife ( Rescuer). " It's his fault you feel bad, let's fix that"... .go see sister

You get angry- Persecutor  Wife " He's so mean to me!".

While I understand the intent of your religion with regards to marriage, I also wonder if there is a triangle involved here- You, wife, Bible. Dysfunction is pervasive in all relationships and this includes religion- because a disordered person will relate to religion in a disordered way too. I don't know if you can enforce something different on your wife. Even if you are the head of the household- she has her own thinking about this. I think the best we can do when a boundary or agreement is broken is to act on it. That is tough if she is in the role of traditional mother- she's with the kids a lot of the time and that puts her in the role of decision maker during that time about a lot of things.

Seems to me the only way you can ensure kids aren't taken where you don't want them taken, and left where you don't want them left, is not to "let" her have the kids alone. Or be divorced with an enforceable parenting plan which rules those choices out without your permission.

The former seems completely unrealistic.

The latter is unlikely to be imposed without her negotiated agreement or a finding that the SIL situation is objectively unsafe. Perhaps she would agree (she has agreed in context of your marriage; agreeing in context of divorce would be a different matter). The difference from now is that agreement would be enforceable.

Realistically, this is a tough goal to achieve.

Hi FF.  So sorry this happened.  I think you did a great job of following through on your rule about the SIL and protecting your kids.  I also think answering their questions about what happened truthfully and age appropriately was wonderful.  Good work there.

Exactly.  How she perceives your behavior can not and does not define your role.  It is good to be aware of how the triangle plays out in her mind as it can help in putting her behavior into context, but other than that, 'her triangle' has little value here IMO and should not affect how you respond in these types of situations.  You will be seen as the persecutor... .so what.  She is violating agreements made in the marriage, under the eyes of God, and exposing your kids to things you both agreed would not happen.  

As for religion being part of the triangle, in your case, I see God as being in the middle (at least for you FF).  It sounds like your wife uses God to play the victim in her mind and to my eyes, it puts her in the role of wanna be victim but really ia a sort of persecutor when you analyze things from your end.

As long as you stay off the triangle or at least in the middle, I think you are doing fine.  You can't base your responses on her reactions.

Tough tough place to be.  Wishing you and yours the very best.

Hmm. Let's break these goals down.


As others have said, this is not in your control, unless you get a divorce. If I was to ask you what your boundary was, and you said this in response, I would tell you that it's an ultimatum or a rule you want to impose on someone else, not a boundary. Right?


OK... .what's the boundary? If action is "kids are left alone with SIL," what is your reaction to that?

What does "enablement of hypocrisy" look like? Is it something you can control?

What is "holding a person accountable"? If you told me "I'm holding you accountable to call me 'sir' from now on," and I ignored you, what would you do and what difference would it make? Help me understand what these abstract ideas actually mean in practice, and how they get you to your goals?

Divorce does not allow a person to control where kids are when not in your care.
Reading around here long enough, even legal boards... .  doesn't seem divorce gains any more compliance to agreements by the pwBPD.

Not sure why divorce is being propsed as a "solution" or such... .
... .Just saying.

Idk, reading how it all went down, seems clear to me the boundaries, (kids not left with SIL)  boundary enforcement, (FF retrieve kids) etc.  Seems consistent and simple how I see it.

Excellent issues to raise... keep them coming.

I should have time tonight to post.

FF

You can put rules in place around custody, travel, right of first refusal, etc. in a parenting plan. Agreed that compliance can still be iffy, but there is an enforcement mechanism, albeit a slow and costly one.

FF can choose to enforce a boundary of "kids left with SIL" with "FF will go to pick up kids." That's his choice -- I get the sense he is looking for something more pre-emptive than that, which I don't think exists.

I am not sure I see the problem with setting rules about who the kids can be left with.  FF is well within his rights as a parent, as part of his headship role in the agreed upon biblical marriage (hope I worded that correctly). 

He can still have the boundary around the rule of "kids aren't left with SIL" with the boundary being that he will pick the kid up, he will not rescue his wife by trying to whitewash her violation of a rule he has the right to enforce nor will he try to hide her behavior from the kids but rather, will answer the kids questions and explain things in age appropriate ways.

Just because he can't prevent a behavior from happening does not mean a rule should not be in place and that boundaries can not be established for ff.  I agree that if he said "if you leave the kids with SIL I will do ___" is a ultimatum, but stating the rule (again and again and again every time ffw breaks it) is just fine.  If, or more likely when, she breaks the rule, he drives to get the kids and the chips land where they land.  No need to state the boundary to ffw and no need for her to comply.

I am fairly certain that FF is at the point where he expects that ffw will go off the rule book every once in a while.

Harri, I think that's a very reasonably constructed boundary. I'm looking forward to ff's thoughts on this -- because with a boundary like that, there's no need for all of the stuff about holding people accountable, etc.

WHAT!  ?  You mean... .it's going to happen... .AGAIN... .       

Yeah... .you guys pretty much have it nailed... .and expressed better than I could put it.

I would add that I'm not going to "protect" her from uncomfortable conversations about how the Bible, which we both profess to follow, says kids should be raised and "things decided upon".

It's rather clear.

That's very different from chasing her around the house with a Bible demanding she "read this now"... .etc etc.

FF

Hey flourdust!  Glad it made sense!

I see accountability as a separate issue as it is often unattainable with mentally unstable people whether BPD/BPD traits or people with the 'jerk' syndrome. 

FF, haha.  It is only a matter of time unfortunately. 

Not protecting your wife is a good point as well. 

Be well.

I think that the idea of "if kids are left with sil, I will___" is a good boundary, just make sure that you count the cost of that boundary and are willing to pay that cost. It is hard to enforce the 'rule' of 'no kids left there'.


I get the concern about the hypocrisy with regard to religious practices; I live with that as well. My husband tells me one thing and other people another -- and he is in church leadership. At this point, I care more about the end result that he is telling people things that are not true. He tries to distract me by telling me his story about how he came up with this... .I keep going back to he knew something to be untrue and he told it to other people. He doesn't like this, and I'm not interested in his justifications.

To me, if a person truly feels the Bible is the set of rules they want to live by, then their choices are between them and their conscience. This marriage agreement you two have may work when the marriage is between two adults who both make this choice.

However, if your wife is emotionally younger, this influenced her emotional ability to do this. It also seems to me to put you in the position of enforcer. This changes the dynamics in the relationship. If two people have an agreement and one breaks it- that person is accountable to the other. In this situation you have brought in a third entity - the Bible- and you are enforcing her commitment to that. So it's no longer a one on one relationship for her to you or her Bible.

I'm not questioning your religious commitment, but looking at how a mental disorder affects all relationships and wondering how there can be room for your wife's way of thinking in it. I get the sense that you are trying to get her to see things your way, justified by the Bible, but it's not possible to control someone else's thinking.

It's a dilemma- a person of legal age who is legally competent and in many ways probably a good mother to the kids is hard to control.

It seems there are two issues here- the children's safety. The other is her broken agreements with you. Her behavior may have a passive aggressive element. This can be done by people who feel a lack of control. She may agree with you to avoid a conflict while thinking " I'll just do it anyway" rather than make a case for visiting her sister. It's possible she feels conflicted about that - it is her family - even if it is a dysfunctional one.

So... .to put the most recent weeks "behavior" in context, it was "relatively mild"

SIL moved... again... .  I think her pattern is to skip out on last month or two of lease payments and move right before eviction.  I can't prove that... .but I'm a landlord... .I know patterns... .watch deadlines... etc etc.

Her kids don't want to move... .each time... .lots of blame... .lots of stress.  There is 18 year old boy, 16 year old boy and 14 year old girl.

18 year old is ruined.  drug/domestic violence convictions, he "barely" graduated high school, suicidal ideations when was 13/14 with lots of associated counseling (it was his fault... .no family dynamic change... in SIL view).

16 year old is self absorbed teen... ignores mom... chases girls around... hides drugs and alcohol... but hides them well.  IN other words... he presents well.    18 year old does not present well... cries a lot... dysregulates.  16 year old is "cool customer".

14 year old girl is most reasonable of the lot.  There was some fight over there before the move.  14 year old girl was subject to a dominance move of some sort by her Mom.  She said no.  So... the mom picks a 3 bedroom house, takes 14 year old girl over there to show her and says.  There's my room, there is your brothers room and there is your other brothers room.

14 year old didn't ask where hers was... .she got the message and moved out to her Dad's house.  She has been there... .almost a month.  It appears permanent.  No child has disobeyed SIL this long. 

It has thrown the entire family system into disarray.   :)  I think it's kinda funny... .if my family wasn't so tied to them.

My daughter apparently was the "bait" to get 14 year old to move back to Mom. My wife tried to "fix" the rift.

So... .luckily this was while my daughter was at BIL's house (divorced dad).  The "cool" customer decides he needs to go check out some girls (  drink and get laid) which leaves SIL and the 18 year old to do all the work.  18 year old flips out (always happening) and punches holes in the wall. 

The fix for this (in BPD land) is to prevent 16 year old from leaving... .so there is some kind of standoff where SIL is in her car and 16 year old in his car... .and SIL is blocking 16 year old from leaving property. 

Somehow... .they got moved.

Even if this story is a fabrication... .that's almost just as bad.  Stories like this are commonplace.

There is a chance that my duramax diesel truck was the vehicle being used to block 16 year old in.  My wife gave it to them for the move... .

Note:  I've not mentioned my upsetness at the truck... .I focus on daughter.

Anyway... .to give you a flavor of stuff that happens there... .like I said... relatively mild.

Bad would be SIL comes home to find drunk/high/sleeping 18 year old.  Does she let him sleep it off... .of course not.

She wakes him up... .he beats her azz... cops come... .he goes to jail.  Technically he got a conviction, but I think it is a deal where it "goes away" after a year if no other trouble.

Just another day in BPD land.

FF

To be clear... .conservative Baptist belief is that a husband can and should "discipline" his family.

That would be to point out scriptural error and such.  The husband points it out... .but isn't really the enforcer, that's up to Holy Spirit (conscience).

P has worked with my wife enough to know that pointing out to her that she is wrong... .about anything... .is very triggering.  I need to make sure it matters.

In this case... .it does. 

My approach still matters.

Let her box herself in with scripture... .vice me pursuing her with it.

Or... she gives up scripture... .with some whacky explanation... but that busts her social order.

Essentially... .she has put herself in a pickle... .I'm not going to rescue... and will encourage the pickle to continue until she is tagged out.

I will avoid being the "tagger"... .if possible.

FF

I have absolutely no advice, no insight, just a note to let you know that my heart goes out to you and your children.

I pray your faith is able to sustain you through this latest upheaval.

TMD

Whew, FF, I hope things have settled down in recent days. You certainly drew a royal flush of BPD with your wife's extended family!

I've seen a consistent pattern in your posts over the years. You are incredibly tolerant and patient, however you seem to desire explanations for whacky behavior and refusals to comply with agreements. I get this too--I'm very logical and unemotional and when my husband reacts in what seems to me to be a bizarre way, I'd like to understand what is going on.

However, I might as well try to figure out random throws on a roulette wheel. (Don't understand why my metaphors today revolve around gambling, as that is something I have absolutely no interest in.) Sure, over time, I've learned a lot about my husband's triggers and often I can avoid them, or at least verbally duck and run for cover if I've inadvertently triggered one of them. But for a lifetime of his history, I'll never have any knowledge or understanding, nor is it my business to know. Lots of times I don't think he even knows why he gets triggered. So my asking for clarification just becomes a bigger trigger.

I understand your situation is quite different in that you're sharing your Christian views with each other as part of your marriage. But in a similar way, asking for her scriptural rationale for behavior which conflicts with your prior agreements is very similar to asking a kid why they took cookies out of the cookie jar when they were prohibited from doing so. It definitely puts you into the persecutor role.

I cannot think of any good alternative other than having really clear rules set, which you've done. If there were some way to have natural consequences follow, that would be great. But if you're the enforcer, the judge, jury, executioner, then, again, you end up in the persecutor role. And we all know how easily pwBPD embrace victimhood.

I'm so glad you and D11 had a chance to ride horses. I can imagine she must miss them terribly.

Guess what my wife is trying to avoid talking about... .   

I suppose the outcome of this would be some sort of written thing that says two signatures required for any overnight visit.

Or perhaps out of state visit... where a parent is not present.

Of course... she can violate that... .but it is part of creating a paper trail... and creating structure... .inside which she can do her thing... without too much collateral damage.

We'll see.

FF

Seems like kids left in her sister's care without one of you present is the issue. (Because you did not travel all that way just to prevent a sleep over.  The situation sounds unsafe even during daylight hours.)

Also cause otherwise "overnight" can easily start as... ."I intended kid to stay all day, but it got too late to drive back and just made more sense to get kid in am, kid was tired, they were having fun... .etc."

Idk. I think "overnight" actually sounds a bit like permission to leave kids with sister.  Because makes it sound like it is ok... .most of the time, except this small window when kids are sleeping anyways.

Maybe even an agreement that kids don't get left anywhere... .period... .without agreement, idk.  The simplier the better tho.

 
Good point... .I'll sweeten it up. 

Kids left in someone else's care when out of state, need both parents to be ok with it.  Or something like that.

Yes... the real issue is the sister.  I'm trying to solve that by enforcing a "principle".  I don't want to debate the merits of the sister.  Nothing good comes from that.

FF

Not really sure why kids ever need to be left in anyone's care without agreement?
With maybe the exception of a local event at school, church, playdate or an agreed upon grandparent? 

Idk tho, u got lots of kids... .

Unless you find this restrictive for where you want to leave them without asking.

[Reminds me of typical divorce parenting plans... . even in those, the parent gets first right of refusal... .so ffw woulda had to ask if you wanted kids first, before leaving with (sis as) a "babysitter."]

Cause truth is... .what state you are in is not the issue.  If sis traveled to your state, are you ok with ffw leaving for 8hrs and kids with sis?

Nope... .any state... any where... .I'm not ok with it... with the Sis being "in charge" or "responsible for" any minor child or mine.

FF

My experience with the whole written agreement thing is that it doesn't help with changing the behavior of our spouses... .  My h has agreed on paper to do something - the church even required him to do it for a time (with accountability and the whole bit). He tells people that he is doing it, but he isn't - and there is a lack of a paper trail.

When they have 'feels', the things that are written down don't matter.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=313215.new#new

I'm continuing this thread at the link above.


The written agreements are for "paper trail" and will be constructed so that lack of future paper trail shows "non-compliance".

For instance... perhaps any future trips are only discussed in writing... in email... with Biblical references and goals.

If our goal is to help her extended family... .why wouldn't we want to be in the right frame of mind (after reading and reflecting on appropriate Bible verses) so that we can edify them in a way that honors our faith?

:)

Why wouldn't we want to do that?

FF

*mod*

I am locking this thread because it has reached its length limit. The post originator is welcomed to open a continuation thread on this topic.  Have a great day.