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Yesterday it was my last College exam for this semester. I hadn't studies much the last 3 days because the kids were with the flu, and I couldn't leave.

I had the exam in the evening, so I went out to study intensively for the day. After some silence, she kept texting me about how wrong it is that we keep trying to be together, how it was a mistake to try, how I don't get her... .That she's gonna keep trying to talk to her ex-husband to drop the kids with him, because she is a failure as mother, and they have to be away from her influence.

Bear in mind that we fought 3 years to get the custody for her. I was by her side all this time, and I spent my money on it. The ex is alcoholic, abusive, and too old to take care of two hyperactive kids. On top of all, he has no interest at all, he hasn't called them, or visit, or want their visit even when we take them to his front door.

If he gets them, he's gonna give them to the system. And no jugde would give them back to her, when she's renounced them to the ex after the court grant the custody to her. It is a decission with no return. She's suicidal already, and she says she's gonna be 10000 times worse without the kids.

But she can't stand living with me. She can't stand depending on me. She can't stand hurting me and being abusive in front of the kids and setting that example. She can't stand how "weak, and dirty and unworthy" she was for falling in love with me, and wanting "a guy". She says she changed so much in order to attract me, that she changed into someone she completelly hates.

I tell her I've been acomodating, and supportive, and encouraging, I helped her to survive and have a chance at being free, independent. I'm not her enemy. She takes every line like that and answers: You want to save your ass, to be the better man, you are always right and I'm wrong, it gets old, I'm tired of telling you it's all my fault, I'm damaged, I'm flawed, I'm crazy, it has nothing to do with you, it has to do with me, and it's very humillliating having to repeat this over and over again.

The exchanges go like that:
GF- I'm so mad that you are in the kitchen.
Me- But I'm here, on the other side, in the bathroom.
Gf- Yeah, you are so perfect, and I'm guilty of everything. Why do you need me to humiliate myself like this?

2 years later: Gf- When I remember when you were in the kitchen, I get so mad I want to kick you in the balls.

Please, tell me you understand that I'm not telling her I'm right, just that I'm not in her way, and she can stop being mad and just go in the kitchen.

I can't go and re-read that "ex-boyfriend" text again, I'm broken, I went into the exam crying, I left crying and walked a long way like a zombie, walking like a 90 year old drunk, bumping into things and people and not being able to care. I wanted to drop to the floor and not move or talk again.

I think I can take a break up, I could even welcome it. But she's gonna end up dead, and the kids, my family, are going to lose their lives. Their father already had two older kids, one in a psychiatric ward in and out, with multiple suicide attemps, and one given to a foster family. The kids, MY kids, are terrified of him.

Joe I'm replying on the go, so will come back to say more to you when I can. I just want to let you know you're not alone in this and that we're here to help you work through. It sounds like what you're dealing with here is increasingly becoming a practical problem requiring practical solutions and it may be wise to also put a post on Family Law to see what advice can be given there.

How did you find the exam itself? Were you able to answer the questions and focus for the time you were there? You've put a great deal of effort into this and I'm so sorry to hear that you were put in this awfully upsetting situation at such a crucial time for you. I'm afraid that your gf is unable to see past her own crisis to be able to understand her impact on you. In an ideal r/s our partners would be supportive of us when we are at such an important point in our lives. That's not something that can be relied upon in a BPD r/s and puts a real strain on the non partner. What options do you have if the exam has been affected by an emotional crisis? It might be worth speaking to someone now to establish your best course of action should you find the result doesn't reflect your efforts.

I know others will join with support, so I'll leave it at that for now, but feel your anguish and pain in your post. Hang in there Joe. The exam pressure is off now, but the time you've been carving out for yourself is ever important. Being immersed in the r/s without time to weigh up actions and take care of yourself isn't going to be helpful so do what you must to ensure some downtime still.  

Love and light x

Joe, this is tough.

I don't know your whole situation or how to fix it but wanted to say I see some JADE in your responses to her.

GF- I'm so mad that you are in the kitchen.
Me- But I'm here, on the other side, in the bathroom.
Gf- Yeah, you are so perfect, and I'm guilty of everything. Why do you need me to humiliate myself like this?


I tell her I've been acomodating, and supportive, and encouraging, I helped her to survive and have a chance at being free, independent. I'm not her enemy. She takes every line like that and answers: You want to save your ass, to be the better man, you are always right and I'm wrong, it gets old, I'm tired of telling you it's all my fault, I'm damaged, I'm flawed, I'm crazy, it has nothing to do with you, it has to do with me, and it's very humilliating having to repeat this over and over again.


JADE ( even if you are right) can be very triggering.

This is my take on these conversations ( and not really knowing all of it). When she gets into you, it is in a sense a way to get your focus- negative or positive is still focus. At some level, she has to feel a poor self esteem. One thing I learned from co-dependency work is that rescuing behavior can also potentiate resentment on the part of the one being rescued and the rescuer- even if it is a situation where it was necessary for survival as it seems to be the case with your GF.

As much as it hurts to hear her accusations, and how tempting it is to JADE, what is she actually saying?

"I feel so much less than you"

And when you JADE, you actually point out how "wrong" she is ( because the accusation may be wrong). She hears that you are more concerned with pointing out your being right and her being wrong than to hear what she said in terms of feeling. When this happens, it escalates your situation as in the moment, she can't stand to be feeling more less than you and the only solution she is thinking in the moment is to not be with you.

You do a lot for her,  but the other side of doing so much for a person is it diminishes their sense of competence. She has a disorder, which makes it hard, and then she also lives with someone way more competent than she is.

How do I sense this? I observed this between my parents. My mother is severely BPD and it appeared that my father did everything for her and I don't think she could survive on her own. She has many good qualities- she's actually very intelligent, but her BPD leaves her functionally disabled. My father, and then her kids, grew up doing just about everything for her and it became apparent that her children were more competent at tasks than she is. I eventually realized that she knew this, but it was so hard on her self esteem, she preferred to pretend she was competent- have us do things for her and then she'd say to others that she did it. It took me a long time to be able to listen to her from her point of view without being "triggered" myself. How could she be so ungrateful? But doing too much for someone takes away their self esteem and creates resentment.

This doesn't mean you toss your GF out on her own. I certainly wouldn't suggest that for my mother. One day my parents were visiting and my kids were little and getting rowdy. I had been in the habit of doing for my mother, not asking her for anything, but this time, I asked her if she could make the kids sandwiches. Had I asked her to make me one she'd probably act up, ( so much baggage between us) but I think the request somehow made her feel needed and she seemed pleased.  It must have been decades since she felt that, as we all looked at her as somehow pathetic and damaged. ( we didn't know about BPD for a long time).

It must feel pretty bad to feel pathetic and damaged.

I know it is hard, but perhaps trying to not listen to what she says about you, but the feelings behind it. You can't fix the feelings, but trying not to JADE may let her express them and not escalate things. Also, you do a lot for her and probably better than she can- but are there spaces you can step back and let her try doing some things?

I know all that, trully.

The problem is that when I'm validating, and I don't engage, she still won't go in the kitchen, because she believes I'm there.

My point is not for her to know that I do a lot for her. I'm a ghost at my own home. My point is that she knows I'm not on her way.

I engage when I am at the end of my rope. When I see her suffer so much for things that I didn't do, and those things don't go away in months of years.

And here I am, JADEing to you.

Yup!
 

Looking at the drama triangle. - when you bring up all the things you do for her, it puts you in victim mode. She is approaching you feeling bad about yourself- and she is feeling in victim mode.

There was a great line in a David Bowie song. " Putting out the fire with gasoline". If the drama triangle was a fire, JADE would be like throwing gasoline on it.

I understand being pushed to feeling at the end of the rope. It must feel bad to think she can't go in a room with you. Consider in that moment, she is feeling shamed triggered and may need to get a grip on herself. I don't suggest moving our or breaking up-but maybe in these moments she needs some space- to not be in the same room as you or to avoid you when she is feeling shamed. Maybe her feelings are more about her than you- and she is trying to cope with feeling triggered. This makes you feel rejected but it may not be all about that.

She sees no improvement, no hope, and more and more undeserved resentment towards me. She doesn't think she's punishing us, but freeing us from her presence. She is seeing that the kids watching our dinamic is very harmful, and as she is not anticipating any improvement... .

I give her all the space in the world. I study at my car! with gloves and a hat, because it's freezing. I do free extra hours at work, just to not cross paths with her at home. I don't linger around her, nor expect her to say, or answer good morning, or good night. I can't give her more space unless I move out myself.

Good. That will help in sorting this. Notwendy has mapped it pretty well.

Sounds like she is melting down... .ready to punish herself, you, the kids.

Do you know what happened in her world to drive this?

And switching away from her for a minute, because you are the second wounded human being in this relationship. There is some melting down on your side - sick children, exam pressure, no time to study, no spousal support, threats of family destruction. Stress is stress and no matter how well we intellectualize it and when stress points pile up on our shoulder we eventually our knees buckle - and down, down, we go.

Even the Twin Towers in New York could be brought down... .

(https://lookingfortrue.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/sept_11_statue.jpg?w=518&h=355&zoom=2)
Controversial Sculpture by Eric Fischl

I agree with Notwendy analysis of your wife and the dynamics there.  And I agree with you that you can't save anyone else when you are going down yourself... .

Is there anything you can do to find respite? Can you send her off to mum for a week to rest herself and you can rest two? Maybe she takes one child you keep the other (so that this isn't a breakup)... .

Do you have any thoughts on something like this that you can do?

We're here for you, man.

Her mother bought a dog the minute they left her house. She can't visit more than 10 minutes, or she ends up at the ER. Let alone a weekend. Kids get sick too, only not as bad as her.

I'd have to leave, which will put more presure on everyone. I've thought about it. Having to lie or explain to my family is something that would stress me way more, not less. No one knows she's BPD.

At least the kids want me there. So, I spend time with them, now that I can park the studies for some days.

She has no-one to go to. That's why she lives with the hardest person for her to live with.

There is no one in the world she can visit for a week? Maybe extreme exercise camp? (kidding)? Barcelona's Disney World?

You leaving is not a good idea... .it rewards bad behavior.

Be creative. What can you do?

I agree with Skip.  Not Wendy has some excellent points and is giving you great advice for the long term in how things might be turned around.  Right now, you need some space to gather yourself and take a breath.  We all need that sometimes. 

What's the reason that your family are unaware of your partner's BPD?  Do they spend any time with the two of you and the kids?  Maybe they have more of an idea than you know?  I was going to ask if maybe she could go stay with your family if they are close but it doesn't sound as though that's the case.  Does she have any friends/siblings?  A change of scenery might do her a world of good as well as giving you a break to recharge.

Love and light x 

Joe,

I'm so sorry that you're under such an immense amount of stress.

While we will give you advice on how we think you might raise your game, for example by lessening JADE, we are limited in how much context we can understand.  Things like tone of voice matter.  We cannot hear your tone, and things like "I'm on the other side" can be said in a JADE tone or not in a JADE tone.  It sounds like you are bending over backwards to be accommodating and stay out of her way.  In fact, I am sure that you are contorted into a pretzel.  At some point, things get so bad that it seems like it is difficult to do anything right.  Just looking at you may trigger her.  And that feels terrible.

I have a feeling you need to improve your local support system.  Do you have folks there who you can lean on for support?  Perhaps someone a few years older who can help you consider the laws of your country and how best to protect the kids?  I'm sorry for my ignorance, but is your dad living, and are you able to talk to him about things like this?  Any uncles or older relatives you can talk to?

WW

JoeBPD81,

Im so sorry this is happening. I can completely understand how low you must be feeling.  . I know it doesn’t feel like it now, but this can turn around for you, and get better. Please don’t give up on yourself. In your shoes, I’d feel similarly—afraid that my partner would fall apart, or worse, if I left. But people often surprise us, when confronted with the responsibility for their lives and choices.

You are getting excellent advice in this thread, so I’ll simply say keep posting and reaching out. We are listening and we care.

heartandwhole

Thanks everyone,

There are a lot of questions... .Although not as many answers that I could give.

By the way, the kitchen example is not real, it is an example of the structure of the conversations. To illustrate that it can be something so domestic and shallow, and so easily seen if you are getting mad at something that it's not there. And how after checking that it's not true, she remembers it months later as if it had been.

Once I told her she had great legs. She interpreted great as "big", so I was a cruel a-hole calling her fat. I was always praising her legs and caressing and kissing them if I had the chance. I loved them. I was crazy about her. It made absolutely no sense that anyone would mean big when they say great in that context, and least of all, me. This was before knowing about BPD or even her anorexia. Then I argued back a lot. I couldn't believe she wouldn't be convinced that I meant beautiful legs. All the other previous times I had said something positive about them, it got reinterpreted as lies in the light of the new impression. So I was insensitive, and a liar. Instead of the other way around: "I have hundreds of pieces of  evidence to know he loves my legs, so this interpretation must be misled". Three years later she gets absolutely mad when she remembers this.

So "cruel,insensitive, liar... ." were labels that she was hanging on me, and they accumulated, when they were all based in untrue things. I felt her getting away and fighting me back based on those interpretations, accumulated. My understanding was that she is disliking this guy more and more, and that guy is not me. If she knew I wasn't like that, she wouldn't need to dislike me or fear me. She never believed me, so she ended up forgiving (but not forgetting) things that I didn't do, in order to keep going. This made me crazy. How could she love the guy she thought I was? Does this mean she doesn't love me?

At this point all the good things she sees in me, are in a different dimension from the things she thinks about me. I make no sense to her, because half of her image is false.

She got mad ,because she thought I wouldn't stay with the kids while she went to the doctor,without asking me. Something I always do. She assumed I wouldn't, and then got mad, and told me she was mad. And told me that she no longer wanted me to stay with the kids (in a rude tone in front of them). When she had never given me the chance of saying "of course I will".

I am tired. And I get offended after so much dealing with me as if I was that guy. Insensitive, liar, sneaky, selfish, sarcastic, fake, cruel, cheating, womanizer, horny, spiteful, revengeful (is that a word?), uncaring... .Even gay, girly!, oversensitive, coward... .All of that based on different lies. And I have my own true flaws to add to the fake ones!

After a hundred times I can't keep thinking about her feelings and her triggers. And once in a hundred, I explode, and I JADE and I compare what she does with what I do,and I take weeks of progress to the trash. I lose control. I get 5% of the rage she has towards me, but the consequences are way worse. I would never hit her, or insult her. But I tell her she is wrong, or that she is mad about something I do when she does it to me tenfold, everyday.

----

The exam was just a semester, I could take it again in September, it is not important in the big picture. But I think it went well, considering. I wasn't in my brightest moment but they can tell I studied. It was 4 essays, so it depends on how they like what I wrote,it's not an objective thing. Thanks for asking.
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The 3 of them have a complex that they are not wanted anywhere, the kids are noisy, unruly, can't learn manners,  and they break and stain things wherever they go. All kids do! but these take things over the limit, and they are used to hear a lot "shut up" "that is wrong" "that is unbearable"... .Their own father has told them to their faces that he doesn't want to see them again. Their other relatives, grandma and aunts, they get tired after 2 minutes, and they avoid their presence all year long. When they see them, it's complaint after complaint. Their very poor impulse control gets them in trouble also at the school, and with friends. They are labeled as weird short-tempered and immature by kids their own age. Their mum feels these rejections amplified.

She prefers not to expose herself to people, at all. She has severe social anxiety. She thinks no one could like her company. And she can't even believe that I want to be with her or them for real.

She doesn't believe friends would like to see her.  And she doesn't want to burden anyone with talk  of her problems. In time this has made that there isn't anyone around, she has no friends.

The sister is very treacherous. She planted doubts about me in the beginning, about the chance that I could be cheating, that hurted us forever since. She would talk about food and clothes,sizes, etc when my GF is anorexic and gets triggered and very sick after hearing that. Even after asking specifically not to do that, she kept on doing it. She lives in a 4 bedroom flat, rent free (their grandmother owns the flat) that was completely empty when my gf reported her ex-husband for abuse to her and the older kid. She asked the grandmother to rent that flat, and was told no, homeless and with 2 kids (2 and 6 then), because the plan was to give it for free to the sister,who has no kids and a good job. When my gf's washing machine broke (you know how much laundry 2 kids need) she wasn't even allowed to go there to wash the clothes. The flat is upstairs from her mother's.

Her father is an exconvict, we know he has money, has several houses, and shady businesses. She asked him for help once, for some cash and/or help getting any job. And he laught and told her what she needed was a feminist lawyer. He has no permanent residence, that we know of. We never know when he's even in the country.

To illustrate how her family seems like an unreal nightmare, the mother gave her sister, for her name-day the payment for a full year car insurance (remember,the sister with job and no rent to pay or kids to feed). The same year, to my GF who slept on her floor in the same room with her kids,she gave some cash to have a coffee and leave her alone for an hour.

So,no, there is no support at all from them, and many traumas, revolting and frightening abuse. And when your own family and husband has treated you like that, you expect that every person is a monster.

We spend more than we earn without any luxury. So we can't afford a trip, or a stay at a hotel.

My family has taken them with open arms. The kids love their cousins and playing with them. But family gatherings stress my GF to scary highs. When she comes, she loves it, and she is relaxed and happy afterwards. But the previous 4 days are hell for her and me. And many times she cancels, or she comes telling me we are done, and we won't see each other anymore after that.

She has a big issue with privacy. She hates the idea that I could be talking about her. And her diagnosis is a secret outside the couple and the T. It is not my secret to tell. My family is nice,but they are not invested to the point of understanding. They avoid getting into uncomfortable conversations. They either give me a pat in the back, or suggest I leave them. They would say things like "tell her to not be silly" "tell her she has to eat"... .They are all strong old fashion Catholics that don't believe in depression or psychology in general. This goes way over their heads.

I had only one personal conversation with my dad, and it was about the evil of masturbation before I knew what it meant. I was like  He hasn't been close to any of his kids. When I've tried to get serious with them, they get uncomfortable and quickly change the subject. I was never able to connect with them. For years my mother thought I was on drugs, when I don't even smoke tobacco or drink past a beer. I don't speak, I'm introvert, so they can't figure me out, and it makes them uncomfortable. Even when I went to church regularly and even taught catechism.

So betraying my gf's secret when I know they are not going to care enough to understand, it is not worth it. If I scare them as often as she scares me, about leaving, or killing herself, they wouldn't have any faith in our relationship. And they wouldn't be as nice to her or the kids. Same goes for my friends. I don't want us to be seen as "Joe and the woman who's abusing him". Of course people suspect, but they can't imagine. Some friends who I confided with,without mentioning BPD, they ended up saying "this is too complicated for me, sorry", and went no contact, as if drama were contagious.

She wasn't like this when I met her. And all the people in her life had left her before the rage came to be. She was sad and introvert. But she was polite, and sweet, and helpful. Her father left the family (to go to prison, she later learned) and she blamed herself. I wanted to be the one that didn't left, but she makes it really hard, she fights me every step of the way.

She was polite today, in a distant way, and she threw a couple of baits, but I didn't bite/JADE.

Stopping the JADEing has help me a lot in the past. But at this point I have no say in their future. I can't force them to stay, I can't claim the kids of my GF.

I can't change things, so I come here for support and understanding. I don't see how after a long time of letting go your anger against one person, you can go back to love them or feeling attracted to them, after being afraid or even disgusted. I almost have no hope of being a couple again. But I would like her not to die. And the thing keeping her alive are the kids, and the kids want me in their lives.

I know I can make things more livable, for me and her. But in order to be a couple, it would have to be something that she at least wants to try. If she doesn't want to be my GF, then I'm just a friend helping out.

But who knows, we've been here before. And somehow she convinces me again that she loves me. So I can't say this is the end for sure, although it feels like it.

So, since you've been here before, how can you blend that knowledge with the knowledge you are gaining of the drama triangle so that in 4 months you look around at your life and relationship and say "I've never been here before."

Knowing that it may not be the "final" answer, but at least you will be on a pathway to somewhere new.

Thoughts?

FF

Joe, what medical help does she get for her anorexia?  I hear a great deal of low self esteem from her when you describe what she says to you.  Is she engaging in treatment?  Going back to your first post, comments like this stand out:



She has awareness of her issues, despite summarising them in the way she does.  What is her stance on getting support and help to overcome them and give herself and the kids a chance at a better future?

Love and light x

Joe,

Thank you for taking the time to explain your situation in such deep detail.

In your spare time  you might want to take a look at the book, "Transforming the Difficult Child:  The Nurtured Heart Approach."  I've found it's been very helpful for adjusting my parenting and reducing some of the drama with my D12.  I think you'll find it very informative.

WW

FF,

My thoughts  are that that would be wonderful, I still don't know how to get there though. It looks like a big mountain to climb.

HQ,

she refuses to get treatment for anorexia or change anything in that regard. She uses all her will to maintain and not lose more weight. She eats at night when we are all in bed. And she tries to eat healthy food (or what she thinks it's healthy), she used to have empty calories. This is the best she has eaten in the time I know her, so I feel I can't push that front anymore.

Lack of vitamin B12 and other nutrients (minerals), and fats, can really mess with her brain. The most stable time in her life, she was eating normal (to please others). It is really scary.

She calmly says that she'd rather die before gaining any weight. She knows it is an illness, and she hates herself more for how irrational and immature it sounds. But she can't help it.

After many approaches, I think the only solution is that her life becomes more enjoyable. Because now, dying is more attractive. If she wanted to live, she would also have a motivation to fight that illness that wants her dead.

Her self esteem is lower than low, it is self loathing. But on the other hand she doesn't want to change, she wants to remain true to herself. And Anorexia and BPD are part of herself. Her sense of identity is frail, so she is very afraid of becoming someone that she is not.

She oscillates between not wanting to be aggressive and rude, and proclaiming this is who she is, and she shouldn't have to change.

I know there is an enormous amount of pain and fear. So big it gets out anyway it can. I can get angry at everything, but mostly I want to comfort her, and take the pain away.

When she is aware, she has great insight. We have many long conversations about her emotions, her thoughts and theories, her symptoms, everything.  But I see spots where she can't go there, and she is completely blind about them. It's like there are some areas in her mind, and memory, that are locked away.

So her great intelligence, contrast with those spots where she is completely irrational about them. She has this great insight, so you think, you feel, she is gonna understand any reasoning, but there are some places she won't go. It's like the truth is there, but she somehow gets repeled and believes something else, without remembering she was searching for the truth and about to find it.

Watching many people with mental disorders and trauma in  Dr. Phil , many react like that. They are presented with the truth, one that they can't accept, and when they see the evidence their minds go anywhere else. They change the subject, repeat their truth, or stare at the wall looking lost.

My gf's stand changes. Overall, she takes the help, doesn't take the medication. But she doesn't believe she has a chance at overcoming this. She sees some advances, but too slow, and feels like one step ahead and two back. She doesn't believe there is a future, she's beaten and broken and she wants to die. But she can't do that to the kids.

The kids focus her. They are a pain in the behind, but she is great with them. She never neglects them, she doesn't oversleep, or fail to take them anywhere, She doesn't drink or take anything to numb her pain, in order to be alert in case the kids need her. She enables them and rewards them all the time regardless of their behaviour. Their leisure is more important than her health. But this is doing too much, not too little.

She doesn't split on them, or acts in an irrational way with them. But she thinks she does.

When I thought about it, I realize she only acts BPD-like with me. As Wentworth said, just looking at me it's a trigger.

WW,

Thanks for the book recommendation. And for taking the time to read my long posts :-)

This time is very bizarre. I think she has relaxed now that she has broken up with me. Yesterday she asked me if we could do something  the 4 of us. She rarely does. Of course, the kids wanted to play some video-game and not be with us. So it wasn't as armonious as it sounded. But it was OK.

Today we did things together too. We even watched a couple of episodes of a tv show, just the two of us. She said: If the kids are busy, do you want to do something the two of us? That is weirder than yesterday.

I felt like crying several times. Because she's not my GF, and I don't know where we are and how long I would be still seeing her. I didn't seat very close, I didn't touch her... .But I miss doing that very much, specially if I think it's over. But I didn't want to cry.

She kept looking at me and then turning when I saw her. When I took her bed out, she kept staring, and I gave her a little hug and a kiss on the cheek, and she said thank you. That's a lot of contact for us. And her response is usually very far from "thank you".

When the kids were in bed, she came to my room and kissed me on my cheek, and said good night.

I don't want to read into that, it's all very confusing. Other times after breaking up with me she has started acting as if the break up never happened, and started talking about the future together. But if I asked, then she would tell me that we were broken up and that nothing had changed.

I don't know what to think, or what I want, or what I'll do. Also, it is weird to have some days without study duty after it was a responsibility for so many days. So I feel extra disoriented.

You gave her a kiss.  She gave you a kiss.  That's nice.  Try to be OK with not knowing exactly where it is going.  It seems like she values having her own space yet wants to cross the distance a bit, safely, in a way she can control.

I can relate to how confusing it is to be with a pwBPD who seems brilliant and insightful in so many ways, yet blind in others.  I don't think I will ever understand it intuitively.

WW

Sunday started wrong, we were browsing through Dr. Phil episodes to watch one, and she said "they could make 60 programs with how dysfunctional we are". I asked her "As a family?" "Including your past?" and she said no, just our RS. I kept doing what we were doing, but she noticed I was sad. She asked ":)id I say something harmful?"

If you are familar with the Dr. Phil show, the most outrageous things are brought to it. Big shocking betrayals, secrets uncovered, very disturbed people... .If something is extra complicated, they do 2 shows.  So saying we'd need 60... .It's not a nice thing to hear when you are trying not to cry in front of the kids when Valentine's day is coming, and your GF has dumped you 2 days ago.

Also, she has all those shocking things in her past. She could write a saga of novels with her past. Her family seems out of a Stieg Larsson's book. Her ex-husband is a monster... .And we two are the most dysfuctional thing in her life.

I tried to explain that it's not easy to hear that, but trying not to make a big deal. That only hurt because of the moment we are in, and because the kids were present and I'm already trying to not look sad in front of them.  She said that we are so toxic for each other, because what helps her cope, saying those things, hurt me and what helps me hurts her very much. She started talking about how she can't trust me and she's waiting for me to cheat on her, if I hadn't already (I'm thinking "what cheating if you broke up with me already?".

I have to say, even as she treats me like... .whatever. I woundn't cheat on her. I have no interest on being with anybody else. If we finaly part ways, I'm gonna need a lot of time to even think about the posibility of being in another RS.

Well, right there, in the middle of the conversation, her ex called. He never calls! But he did then (well, she's been trying to get a hold of him for weeks). I didn't wanna hear the conversation, so I went to my room. She kept coming later, and saying she was sorry, and saying she didn't blame me for anything but... .(It sounded like I had brought the subject up). She started to cry, and saying she was the one that was gonna be alone forever (she never said that as in something sad, she always said she wanted to be alone always.)

I closed the door. And I huged her. I asked her "Am I close to you?" "Am I someone important in your life?" (yes and yes). And I told her she was my best friend, and the most important person for me. I asked her for 10 minutes when she didn't answer negaive things about herself to everything I said. I told her I wasn't going to try to kiss her or touch her in any way. And we were there in a hug for those 10 minutes. She cried in my shoulder, and she didn't get away. She says it is wrong that I'm comforting her when all she does is hurt me. I told her, that she could say those things later, but just forget them for just 10 minutes. Also that when she lets me comfort her, I'm happy.

The rest of the day we were busy with the kids. We had another hug moment, and she was feeling miserable, hopeless. She had to cancel one appointment  with the T, and they gave her another one month from now. She has no hope in getting any better.

I wish she could really get help. She has no other source of support than me, and the T once or twice a month. It's not nearly enough. The presure of finding a job, two very demanding kids (S6 saw us hugging, and went very mad, screaming he didn't love her, and such). And no support. She thinks she is better alone, but I think she's a terrible company to herself, a very bad friend, you know?

Joe, what I read in your post ( and I could be mistaken) was a misplaced sense of self care. You were feeling sad, and yet, you comforted her. Nothing wrong with that, but what about your feelings? What she is feeling- or saying- dominates the tone of the post. One moment she is thinking critically about the relationship, then her ex calls and you are comforting her.


Whether the two of you are a couple or not, is determined by her feelings. Yes, it takes two to decide to be a couple. You can't be a couple if she doesn't want it, but her feelings change and the dual message- you "break up" and next thing she is in your arms for 10 minutes.

This has to be confusing and very tough. From your posts, I think if she came in your room wanting to be a couple again, you'd agree. Nothing wrong with that,  but again, the choice is up to her.

I think it is possible to be so focused on a partner's feelings that we just lose track of our own. In the beginning, you were watching TV and she said something hurtful and you felt sad. At that point, you could have taken a self care step- focusing on you ( using "I" statements, not "you" statements). The Dr. Phil show may be triggering to her, or even both of you. Things you might have said include "this show's a bit heavy for me right now- I'd like to change the channel" "I'm not up to discussing the relationship right now, let's watch a comedy" if she persisted, you could say " I am not up to watching TV - I need a moment to myself- and go to your room or even take a drive.

This isn't a boundary for her, it is for you. If you are feeling sad, upset- it is you that needs a "hug" from you. I know you can't actually hug yourself but whatever you can do for self care- time out in your room, watching something light hearted on TV, a short walk. You are a caring person to her, how about giving some of that to you as well?

Hey man... .I get it that you mean well here.  You seem to understand that much more T sessions and accountability are needed.  She won't do that and yet you continue on. 

Ask yourself, what is the incentive for her to change?  She gets all this support "for free" and she gets to be in a relationship with no consequences for bad behavior (see Notwendy post) at any moment she chooses.

Why would anyone give up a deal like that?  I certainly can't think of a good reason to.

Someone needs to have a firm sense of values here.  Little chance it will be her. 

You seem to understand the kids are in a bad spot, yet I wonder if you have reflected on the difference in enabling a bad situation to continue versus moving a situation towards something healthier.

What specifically are you doing that will result in healthier/more well adjusted kids that are not as demanding?

FF

You are absolutely right.

It has to have to do with the fact that if I'm offended I get even more rejection. "Yeah, you are hurt, because I do nothing but hurt you, and I'm horrible... ." I almost never get a hug. It's very weird for her to start physical contact.

You are right that I should do it for myself. I felt lost and I was looking for that thing to do to focus on myself, and nothing felt right.

I know I'm sad, and I'm a sad person anyway, so it's not a big deal. But I know she gets sad or ashamed and she wants to die. So I quickly turn to worry about her (not healthy, I know). She worries me more than I do. I trust I'll be fine eventually, she won't.

There was no indication that she would welcome a hug. But I sensed that we should stop apologizing and digging into our flaws, and adknowledge that we care about each other. Maybe we can't or we shouldn't be a couple, but we surely don't want to hurt each other. She wasn't crying about the phonecall, she was crying and apologizing to me, she came and went, and each time she came back was to say sorry for something else she thought it might have hurt me.

I had gone to my room, and I had my computer, even though I hadn't decided what to watch. She could nave left me there, but she tried to comfort me in her way (blaming herself for everything), and saying she's sorry.

Dr. Phil, we both enjoy it very much. She has seen before most of the shows that we watch together. We laugh, and we talk a lot during them, we pause and we discuss, in a good way. It is triggering in a constructive way. Rarely it makes her cry, and we are united. It was never cause for conflict between us. It is dysfunctional in itself that we watch that, more than any other show. But it is a teaching tool. She has compasion for people that are way more hurtful than herself. And I'm hoping she learns to have compasion for herself.

I would have just kept on watching, and feel OK in 5 minutes, but she asked, and she was baffled that what she said could be hurtful to me. And I was baffled that she was baffled. She claims that is "Irreverence" and it helps her take the weight of the issue. I get the concept, but it wasn't the time for me to hear it. She didn't want to discuss it.

Am I in denial about how incompatible we are?(As she says) Or does she tell herself we can't work together so she gathers the streght to leave me, thinking it is the right thing? She mentioned several times that she has strong feelings towards me, and that she would miss me, but she doesn't deserve otherwise.

Lately she is saying she would never have sex again. And that I shouldn't put up with that. I'm used to long periods without it, but forever is another matter. Nothing has happened between the last time we had sex and now, she uncovered some wounds from her past. She resents me for things she admits are completely normal for anyone, but hurt her when she thinks about them. Mainly just desiring her. When she wants me, or gives in, and enjoyes it, she feels dirty and unworth it (in her own words) in a way that is unbearable. She doesn't want to feel like that again. After sex she is a completely different person. She is happy, affectionate, energetic... .For about 2 days. But she says that's her "12 year old self". And eventually, she feels like a 12 year old who had sex, something completely wrong.

She has a very negative concept of sex and men. For me it's about closeness, and caring. But I can't change how she sees it. In any case, closeness and caring also scare her. Feeling are dangerous.

I can't stand seeing someone so bright, such a devoted mother, someone that was so generous and sweet... .And someone that had all the bad luck in the world, feeling like she doesn't deserve anything good in life. It breaks my heart more than my own suffering.

Penalty flag... .

How exactly does such a devoted mother get demanding kids that scream when the Mom hugs someone else.

How is it that her suffering is more important than yours?  Where have those values taken the relationship?

FF

She would take a T season a day if she could. She want's help, and she works DBT tools by herself. Healthcare in our country doesn't know a thing about DBT. She goes to the appointments even when she hates to go. I know we have little results, but I believe in giving her points for trying.


You are right, and I need to be in a different place myself to change that. I'm too worried about putting out fires, I react instead of acting according to a plan.


She's giving up, all the time. That's what breaks me.


That's hard. I don't have much attention to parenting when I'm worried she's leaving, or thinking about killing herself. They are in a good place now, but they KNOW their bio-father doesn't want them at all.

We try to follow what the T and teachers say. I can't lead here. She has read books and attended conferences about ADHD, and we try all the good things. There hasn't been two years since they have a house they can call their own.

We don't try to fix all at once. We try to pay them more attention when they behave well. We validate a lot. But we strugle to teach them values, when they don't seem to care at all about good or bad. They also seem to not be able to learn. They get in trouble for the same things over and over again. They don't respecct me much, but with her, it's like she is furniture, nothing hints that they adknowledge that she is a person.

It's all real. But now I'm in the middle of the fire that next month they can be out of my life and influence. Or tomorrow.


She's given them too much. She wanted to compensate for the abuse they got from theid dad, and granma, from her sense that other kids laugh at them... .

The kid, I think he senses that if mum is not watching, he's gonna get some beating from the older kid. He's not wrong about that. We was mad that he needed to finish some homework before playing videgames. When he saw we weren't worried about his desires, he demanded attention. So, it's not that he gets angry when mom hughs me, they usually just add themselves to the hug. But yes, jealousy is a big part of their lives.



Aggg! I don't know how to feel differently! I'm working on it. That's one of the reasons I think I shouldn't have another RS after this one. I can't put myself first. I have to force it, and that's not being me.

Can you explain this a bit better? 


Why can't you lead on the kids?  Or at least set conditions for YOUR continued support of the situation. 

FF

She's looking for any chance to leave our house, with the kids. We are done. But today, she doesn't have anywhere to go.

I'm guessing the ex told her yesterday that he won't take the kids. Or else, that was the plan and she would have taken it.

I'm the ambassador of tough love towards the kids. If we set a rule, I don't back up. I want them to learn to be more independent, and consecuences.  But anything I say about that, it's taken like "you hate the kids". And it makes her be even less consistent with them. She believes in infinite chances.

If we don't have a future together, they don't need me to challenge what she says. She needs all the authority she has left in their eyes. The kids only have her.

I set my rules and my space, independent of their education guidelines. And she sees that they respect them. But more than that, it only brings more trouble.

There's a saying... ."It ain't over 'till it's over."

She is still in your home.  You still have a relationship, even if the name for that relationship is uncertain.  You are in a situation where the demand for your energy far exceeds the supply.  Like one of those nature shows, where the animal must carefully preserve energy in order to survive.  You are wasting some precious energy deciding whether you are a couple or not, whether to discipline the kids or not.  Yes, it is crazimaking.  But stop trying to guess.  Keep working on your boundaries, on your self care.  You have some insights into why you are acting the way you are.  Try not to yo-yo back and forth with her.  That means not believing that you are "done" when she is still in your house, but also not surrendering yourself to make any possible connection with her.  Like it or not, you are learning how to have boundaries and practice self care in a terribly difficult situation.  But that is where you are.  You have a lot of strength and intelligence to bring to this problem.  You can make progress here.

WW

Well,

admiting that is over gives me some peace. I can only go up from there, in a way. Hoping and wondering, that's what takes my energy.

I already started studying for the next semester, and I'm proud of that. I'l keep trying to have the best life I can in these circunstances. I''ll see about that progress.

So, you need to have a time of reflection.

If we are done then... .

It's obvious you care for her and recycles are commonplace.

The best chance for us to be a couple is... .

Is it fair to say that you guys don't see eye to eye on parenting?  If that is not accurate, please describe how you see it.

I do think you are making progress in understanding the situation and in considering boundaries and living out your values.

Solid work on studying.  Let's also "study" for real life... .for YOU.

FF

Not a 100% accurate. I don't think any two people would be.

I agree with her goals, and concerns.
I agree with how consistent she wants to be, but not with how consistent she actually is.

The difference is that I held them accountable for what they do, in a kid's measure, not as adults. She thinks it's all her fault.

When they misbehave, and she grounds them. They are upset or sad. Then she thinks she is hurting them ("because she is a horrible mother" and she gives them a lot of attention, or lifts the grounding.
I believe being upset and sad, it is a part of the process or learning.

The second fundamental issue is that the same thing, if she comes from her it's OK, and if it comes from me, it's mean (to be mild).

It's crazy the amount of screams that go on in any given day among they 3. The day I raise my voice, I'm a bully, I completely loose control, etc.

So the issue is not the view in education, as much as me being an outsider, an intruder, and therefore, a menace. If I say the same as her, coming from me is an attack to her kids, and she turns into mother lion.

This gets better little by little, IF she is regulated. As I'm taking more time and space for myself, the number of conflicts also decreases.

This makes sense to me.

What does that mean for the future of your relationship?  What actions on your part increase stability in her family?

FF

Oh, makes sense, the less RS, the less conflict, no RS, no conflict. Thanks!  :)

Just kidding. Today is a very weird day, you know?

When I spend time with the kids, alone, stability increases. And it goes well. But in time I feel like I have the kids, but I have no girlfriend.

We never had a story of us, dating, and such. The kids where there from the begining. As part of the deal, I take them fully. But it is very strange to have a relationship with them and not with their mom.

I mean, imagine a dating app post: "I wanna have a relationship with your kids but not with you, call me". It is unthinkable.

I feel very selfish saying this, but it feels wrong to be strenghtening the bond with the kids while losing her.

Hi Joe,

Sorry! I am not all caught up here, but I know you've been having a hard time! I know it must be hard with the kids, but all you give to them is a gift for their development and happiness in life. I only had my dad for 16 years, but he has been the source of what has grounded me the most in life. What you give to these kids matters. You may not see the "rewards" of it, but they will and there are surely rewards in life for just being a good person in the face of such pain! If only one or two of these from me:    or more!    

with compassion, pearl.

Thanks for the hugs. Last week I would have taken a hug from any stranger and cry for a day. Now I'm emotionaly detached, I don't wanna get sad, or anything. I feel anger is the closest emotion to emerge.

I did some exercise yesterday and it felt good. I had a present for Valentine's, and I left it in my GF's bed when she went out to smoke at night. She was wearing it this morning, but I didn't want to go into it, or analyze anything. I'm glad she didn't either.

The last 2 days, when I get home, there is an extra yummy home-cooked meal waiting for me. So I count my blessings.

I wish I knew how to transfer some energy from "good person" to "happy person". I used to think that doing the right thing and being generous had its own reward, but I'm not sure I do good anymore. My ex-wife kept demanding more and more and making me feel always like "not good enough", and she wasn't ever happy. And my GF's states often that she was much happier when she was in an abusive marriage. I've seen her deteriorating more and more since we are together.

Well, if I keep like this I'm gonna get sad. And I refuse today! :)

So, it would appear these relationship patterns have appeared before.  I saw you post something about an ex-wife.

I'm wondering if you are "accepting" the relationship that is hear for you, vice seeking the relationship that you need.

Your post about the on-line dating profile was striking.  I readily agree that nobody would reach out to that person.  How is it different for you now?  Why continue something that you seem to understand is "at best"... "way off".

FF

There is a clear pattern among my relationships. I seem to be involved in all of them. I've been in only two. A marriage of 16 years, and this one, going for 4.

It has similitudes, but the dinamics were very different. We had no kids, and we made a good team. I was very comfortable, we both were. But we were more friends than a couple, I thought it was normal in time, but she kept complaining and demanding more romanticism and adventure. In time I realized she wasn't  doing any work towards that but demanding, and that I wasn't satisfied either, but that in order to be happy, I wanted totally opposite things than what she wanted. I wanted to settle down and have kids.

I try to tell you often. I don't think about a relationship, I think about a person that I love and that I really fear she's going to die. I understand that maybe what I do to keep her alive is the same that will doom the relationship.

I can see it is enabling, but she's not all day in bed, or drinking or anything like that. She keeps looking for a job, she goes to interviews, and sends docens of resumes, she takes care of the kids full time, not only their basic needs, but she cares about the things that make them happy. She cleans and cooks, and does all the shopping. She does errands for me anytime she hears I need something.

I get desperate about us, about the frustration of being unfairly judged and acused, about getting the end of an anger I didn't cause, about walking on eggshels and that it doesn't work... .But mostly about seeing her so deeply hurt. 

I don't want to seek another relationship, at least I'm not in a hurry to do that. I think that breaking up could do us both some good (not the kids), but turning her into a homeless person, it won't help anyone. I can't live with that.

It isn't either that I want to break up and I can't, I don't want it. I want to see her everyday. Maybe I'm in denial.

About anorexia I was told "someone has to be the keeper of hope", she has none.  From my place, she has a chance. If she turns the kids to the ex, she has nothing to live for, she wouldn't last a week.

I shouldn't be responsible for this person. I know. That doesn't mean that I could drop her of the cliff. I love her. I can't love her and at the same time not being there for her. I can't say I love her and do less than 100% of what I can do. It might as well be me who puts a soft place for her to fall. Everyone else has given up on her. I could live with any of my siblings and my parents would take me happily. I have friends on whose houses I could crash if I needed to, and they would welcome me too. She is not that lucky. And she carries two kids with her.

Are you buying into her words and thinking about "dropping her off a cliff"?

Or are those yours?

FF

My words.

I know her mother, and sister, and her ex, and her father. There is no hope there.

She's not presuring me into staying, on the contrary, she hates depending on me.

Last monday she went to see the principal of the school to beg her for a job to pay for the school with labor, instead of money. Scrubbing toilets or whatever.  She is the most brilliant student and interpreter I've met, and she's begging for cleaning toilets.

I meant, I'm holding her hand, if I let go, she falls. At this point I can't say "you're not my problem" and let go. No amount of justification would make me feel good about that decission.

So... .listen, bpdfamily is not going to pressure you one way or another.  Stay or go.

We do "pressure" people to be honest with themselves.  If there is only one course of actions that you "can" do, then... .what is the conflict in your relationship?  Yes... that's a bit rhetorical.

Of course you have many options.  Is it accurate to say that you don't "feel" as though you can do other things? 

I'm very curious about this notion that she has to have a "soft landing" or you have to catch her.  I'm wondering it that leads her to take risks she otherwise wouldn't do, knowing there are no consequences.


Said another way, when you read improvement books, to most people learn more from success than from failure?

Why insulate anyone from consequences of their actions and decisions?  What incentive will they ever have to improve?

FF

Hi Joe,

sorry to hear you are dealing w all if this.

Was going to share w you  my experience, strength, and hope.

i have been going to alanon, it helps a lot.

there is a saying there, "stop doing something, just sit there."

i over do.  Then i get expectations.  Then i get let down.  Then i get a resentment, and on it goes.  Always worse, never better.

What i found out, by looking at my part, looking at me, not the other person, is i get better, healthier.

Changed attitudes aid recovery.

everything around me gets better.

i can pause, do nothing, think about what i should or should not say, or do, and its much better for me.

the other thing i am doing, is being of service in the community where i live.  There is something about helping strangers, caring about someone, when i have nothing to gain.  it all helps me, i benefit.

That isn't why I am doing it.  all this stuff works together.

Alanon is a program of attraction, not promotion.  No one can say if you should go or not.

It wasn't until I met my dxpwBPD that i realized much later, that i had bad co dependent issues, and the mix of non /BPD was toxic for our r/s.  It's because of my untreated co dependent issues that we are separated now  since march, after 10 yrs living together.  We are going to counseling.

Things can get better!

Hang in there!  j

It is accurate. I would not only betray them, I would be betraying myself.


I don't know how the expression goes. I just meant having a bed and a roof over her head. In this case, a mattress on the floor. But the kids have each one room with a proper bed.



This is turning into a circle where I defend her. And the more I defend her the more I look in denial of her abuse. In a way it is good because it reminds me of why I do things, but I think I'm losing your respect.

This situation is not success for her. She led a full life with a rewarding job where she was valued, in the town of her dreams. That was success. Her ex was abusive, but would spend most of the time in the bar or socializing, so they didn't see him much. When he started abusing S6 (now S11) she reported him and got a restraining order. After that he threatened to kill her, and tried to take their car, with his own baby on board, out of the road. She couldn't stay in that town. He told the kids he didn't want to see them again, and he's keeping his word for these 4 years.

She came to the big city, because her mom and sisters were here. She figured that they would love at least the kids, and they would get some support. Lived there the 3 of them in a bedroom, in three joined mattresses, for 2 and a half years. The mother wouldn't stay with the kids for therapy, job interviews, or medical appointments. Just because she didn't feel like it. She was enjoying a free cleaning lady, errand girl and cook. It was a sickening environment for the 3 of them. There was no possible progress there.

They started coming the full weekend to my house, and we were happy. So everyone asked her to move out, her mom offered to pay for one kid's school (which she never did) if she left. They wouldn't stop saying it, with the excuse that I was "such a good man". I also asked many times, I wanted to take them out of there, and eventually she said yes. The last months the line from her mum was: "If you go we could get a dog, because it's your fault that we can't get one". And the dog was ordered before she went out the door. My Gf is deadly allergic.

Does this situation sound like the consequences of her actions and decisions? She believes that. She believes she had doomed 3 people, and now she is dooming 4. But to me it also sounds like she's been kicked out by two people who swore to love and protect her and her kids.

What I'm sure of is: I didn't cause this. Any of it.

But I'm also sure that this is failure for her. This isn't even life. She's been threatened before, and kicked out and it didn't motivate her. It gives her the cue to give up completely. When she is not in the dark place, she wants nothing more than pulling her own weight.

I wish someone could say:I understand why you have them there. Is it so crazy?

 

Juju
Thanks for your support, I'm happy to hear you are hopeful and finding meaninful things to cheer you up.

I had looked up Al-anon before, but I forgot. I'll check my local group.

Thanks!

Joe it's not crazy. I understand why you have them there.

My ex was a diagnosed BPD sufferer. He had also been cast out by his family and despite many efforts on his part to reach out to them, they turned him away, no matter how desperate the situation. He had no friends to speak of who weren't drug associations only interested in his money.

He was suicidal and made many attempts on his life. His mother said he should go ahead and kill himself because he'd be doing everyone a favour. His father refused to take him in as he 'didn't have space' although just he and his wife lived in a 4 bedroom house.

My ex was verbally and emotionally abusive, eventually becoming violent. He often used threats and manipulation and I was exhausted anxious and depressed. But I loved him and saw the wounded boy inside of him lashing out. I was deeply unhappy. A point arrived in our relationship where I was being forced to make the decision to put him out onto the street or else suffer other major consequences and I couldn't do it. I knew he had nowhere to go and nobody to turn to. He was vulnerable and likely to take his life if in that situation. I couldn't let that happen.  But I also knew the terrible implications of that choice too, on myself. So I fully understand why you feel as you do. You're not alone.

Love and light x

Thanks a lot HQ,

I know I have to keep my eyes open, and not lie to myself. But it means a lot that someone understands. Ad to that 2 inocent children, who had no choice in the matter. I complain about them, but their teacher have told me that they've seen a big improvement since they have a home, and me as a dad. Putting them on the street (or on the hands of really bad people) is wrong, and it's not a close call.

The RS is not easy, but what really hurts is to see her so unhappy, and seeing her giving up and telling me she's leaving.

I'd appreciate your prayers, because she has a job interview tomorrow.

You wouldn't believe how talented she is, she is really gifted. I'm not a people person, and there aren't too many people I admire. She could have been a Motzart or an Einstein, or a Rembrandt if she had a bit of support growing up. I wish she writes her story, she just needs a happy ending.

So do you Joe. I hope that she is successful and that this presents a new set of options for you both which are more positive. Let us know how things go.

Love and light x

I do, Joe. I really do. But, I'm also a recovering co-dependent.

I've read this entire thread, and what strikes me most about having done so is that I see that you are certainly in a self-reported "tough spot." You are, indeed, a good, good, man who just wants to do the proverbial right thing by these kids and their mother who is, by both your and her accounts, suffering from quite a bit of dysregulated thinking. You have helped her at whatever cost, especially to YOU.  And, as you well know, that in itself is also disordered thinking.

The more you do for your GF the less agency she has to correct/fix/repair what's eating her.

Now, that she has officially broken up with you, she may have let you off the meat hook just enough for you to learn to back away slowly from all the over-caretaking that you have gifted her. Slow and steady is the key.

Maybe now is the time to re-focus and re-invest your energies inward, rather than outward. Because, as you have also noted, the more you help her, the worse she gets.

There came a point in my own relationship that I, too, had to back away slowly from my uBPDw. In other words, I am learning how to secure my own oxygen mask... .

Thank you for sharing and trusting your story with us. Keep writing.


-Speck

Speck has identified the critical thing for ALL caretakers to understand, not just the OP.  It's also wise to  realize that this is (for many) a bit counter-intuitive.

You would think (at first glance) that giving someone a break, helping them out of a tough spot will help them achieve their life goals or some other short term goals.  And... for some... .that may be true.

Critical to focus on big picture and not small picture.  Look at trends.

Last thought:  Another way of thinking about over caretaking is to potentially call it "over functioning".  Ask yourself if people normally do this for others.

FF

Brilliant.  That's exactly my point and one that I, too, have to keep in mind!  'Cause, Lord knows, I'm guilty.


-Speck

I realize there may be a language barrier with some that read these threads.

Please don't hear that we shouldn't do things for others, even extraordinary things. 

The key to evaluating are you "helping"  or "care taking" or "enabling" or (heaven forbid) "hurting" a situation is to evaluate things over time.  To look at the trends.

For instance:  Personally, I've been involved in natural disasters (that triggered BPD in my family) and was forced off my farm for about 6 months.  Another family took us in, the community rallied around us, equipment was donated.  Over time, my family did more and they helped less. 

Were there times I wished they would come back... .oh you bet (especially the free track hoe).  Yet... .free track hoes, free labor and all the rest is not the norm.  Part of healing and getting back to normal is... well... getting back to normal  Which meant for me that those safety nets went away.

I'll hush now and hopefully the OP will come along again soon and share his thoughts.

FF

Joe, how are you doing?  I'm sending positive vibes for the interview. 

To follow Speck and FF's replies, I feel I ought to share with you that after things progressed in my r/s from the point I told you about earlier, I did make that decision.  I reached my limit and put my safety and well being first.  This meant that my ex became homeless.  Yes, I did put him out onto the street.  Which was the hardest thing I ever had to do.  But it came down to a choice and one that literally was about survival.  

Please note that I am not suggesting this is what you do.  However the next part is the reason I'm sharing this.  He got help.  The helpless vulnerable unstable suicidal man got help for himself, by seeking the support he was entitled to as such and was put into emergency accommodation.  The last time he contacted me was to tell me he got his own flat and was starting his own business.  

Again, this is not to give you advice on a course of action.  It is to highlight that it is possible for people who claim to be unable to help themselves to actually turn that around when they need to.  When someone else isn't helping them, they can choose to help themselves.  I hope that you will think on this and consider how you can subtly apply this to your own situation in a normal every day scenario where you would normally take the lead, stepping back instead and allowing things to unfold.  What do you think?  Is there something that springs to mind that might be a place to start?

Love and light x  

HQ,

I'm glad to be getting a better understanding of your story.  We all have "stories" about how we got here.

Can you share some about the strategies that you used to attempt to get your pwBPD to get help, before putting yourself first?   Did you try to engage him about lesser issues, and did that work.

Obviously, Joe is here for many reasons.  One obvious reason is to figure out "what is my next step"?


The "next step" and the "final step" will likely be "several steps" apart.  In fact, we don't know (as it is unknowable) how many steps are in there or what the final step will be.

But... .we can make decisions about this week... .about tomorrow... .about the next time my pwBPD does (fill in the blank).

I think we can all agree that the hope is that Joe's GF realizes what a deal she has and take steps in a positive direction.  There certainly are stories on bpdfamily that support that.  There are also stories where a pwBPD wants no part of "healthy" and there is sadness.

Anway... .I'm hoping knowing more about your story can help Joe to the "next step" towards healthy.

FF

Hi Joe, Oh, I really, really hope she gets a break and gets this job! It can make such a difference, push things in a more positive direction, when we can just catch a break in life! I know you love her so much! Praying for you both!    

There is a strategy in education called "sink or swim".

If you throw a kid to the deep end of a swiming pool, chances are he will learn to swim, to save his life. He'll have a mildly scary story to tell, and for the father throwing the kid, and the son, it will be a story of success. Everybody is happy.

But what if the kid sinks, and drowns? It would not only kill the kid, it would turn the father into a murderer. And the family would be devastated.

It demands a very bold choice. But what if the kid has not one but several mental illneses? Is still a legitimate teaching tool?


Of course I get that the more I help this adult person, the less she is motivated to take control of her own life. Or it's like that  with many people. I reflect about it since the RS began. It's another thing if I get it right, or if I make the right choices.

It is crazy that I help her, being my ex-gf. But it didn't start like that. We were a family, and we hoped to be a happy one. Any family wants to live together. There wasn't over functioning then, I wasn't doing an extraordinary thing.

Now... .It makes no sense. Except I love her. And I don't feel like I'm overcaring by keeping the roof over her head. I don't do much more than that.

I wake up, I have breakfast alone (every one's sleeping), and I go to work. I come back and I'm alone until 6-7 pm. Then they come, I can be with them or I can do my things. At 9 pm the kids go to bed, and I say good night to their mother too. I read, or watch a movie or whatever, then sleep and start another day. When she was my GF, I would spend time with her, mostly chatting. She does all the shopping, all the cooking, and all the work around the house, even my laundry. She pays for the shopping, my food included.

So where do I make cuts from my help?

I know it sounds like she threatens to leave (and/or kill herself) so I double my efforts to make her stay and help her. I don't beg, or make promises. I don't push her out either.

If she had no kids, I would tell her "this has to stop. You have until X day to leave".

I keep a small hope that she would love me again. Very small. And when I ad that to the fact that the kids ARE improving, I want to act on that hope.

I could kick them out and they could be successful. But I will be the guy who kicked them out, not a boyfriend, not a father, not a part of the family anymore. If they lose, I lose, if they win, I lose (them) too.

I've read many stories of recovery from anorexia. Almost all of them have someone who never gave up on them, even if they pushed and pushed this person away, they had a keeper of hope. There are not so many stories of recovery, most of them end in organ failure, or suicide.

I work in an unemployment office. My country has almost 20% of unemployment rate. It's really hard to get a job. If 400 aplicants want a job, you can safely take out the single mothers over 35 with 2 kids. And you still can chose from 380 aplicants. It is not that she refuses to work, or to hunt for it.

I got very depressed when I had to hunt for jobs. It kills my self esteem. I know I can do any job efficiently, but I don't know how to convince the employers of that. Every step in job hunting, for me, it's torture. I procrastinated a lot. A lot. Facing that they don't call back, or don't select me, it's so painful that I don't want to ask. I don't even wanted to think about asking. I ended up taking a Government exam because it was simple, you score high, you have the job. No wondering why they took me or not.

So I have a soft spot for this. If I didn't succedd in 4 years, like her (only short temporal jobs), I would have killed myself. And I didn't have kids depending on me, I didn't have an illness that wants me dead, I had many people in my life who valued and loved me. I didn't have all those terrifying traumas in my past... .

If she was a friend, I would find a way to put her need out of my mind. I would pass my day without thinking about her problems. And I would put distance, unconciously. "This friend is trouble". And my concience would be just a bit bothered by it very rarely. Her kids would be something abstract, a notion. But she is the woman I love, and these are the kids that call me dad.

We started as a family. The things I do that go over providing a place, are for the kids, I show them love, I give them my time. If I turn into "the landlord" for months, I don't know if we could get back from that. To keep my hope, it means to keep being a dad.

No matter what I do, they could go next month.

When she gets a job, if that doesn't change things soon, I'll have to step out. I don't like suffering for sport.

I think you understand that I suffer not because how much I do to help, I suffer because she fights every step of that help, and she can't show me respect or caring. If she was kind to me on a regular basis, I would be happy giving what I give and more. And THAT is wrong, my happiness shouldn't depend on someone else's kindness. My steps, the most urgent, but not the only ones, have to be to solve that.

I had to google "track hoe" :-)  When FF went out of the farm, the comunity helped, and you asume that kind of help is temporal. There are kinds of help that are supposed to be forever, those of your parents. She never had that. She got to this point because she has lived without a safety net. Starting as a kid, they didn't protect her from being raped, abused bullied... .In fact, her family did the abuse. Most of us have even a small net of support. She has me.

When HQ kicked her ex, she wasn't kicking 2 inocent children with him. In fact she was protecting her relationship with her own son. Which is absolutely the right thing to do.

You guys can't even SAY "you should kick them out" (and I get it, and I understand you don't necesarily mean that), so how am I supposed to DO it?

I don't know how many steps I can take before the only thing left to do is that, withdraw my support completelly. I don't know how long it will be before I reach my breaking point and I'll have to do it, even if I think it's completely wrong.

I could kick her out thinking I'm doing her a favor. But that gets mixed with my own agenda, with how much I want to be free of stress, want to do whatever I like (or not do whatever I don't like), or how much I want to have sex again, or save money, or travel, or whatever. I can't pretend I don't have interests in a life free of responsibilities.

I think one of the next steps is finding therapy for me, and ask for help about figuring out more steps.

Thanks for the prayers, the support and the challenges.

Joe,

Thanks for filling us in further on your lifestyle.  I'm glad to hear that you are not doing things that she could do for herself and also that she is doing her fair share for the family and contributing financially.  It's clear that she is a devoted mother and I feel that the parenting thing she will figure out and perfect in her own time as any parent does.  Having kids with ADHD or other similar acting out disorders is extremely trying.  A close friend of mine spends a great deal of time off loading her difficulties with her son when we are together and I know that is what she needs to do as the stress involved is extreme and many techniques seem to make only minor differences.  What you are doing in remaining dad is absolutely right.  You are involved and love these kids.  Your influence on them regardless of how things progress in the family is really valuable, both to them and to yourself. 

Try to think of any specific instances that create tension.  How can you find a way to reduce that opportunity for tension to build?  When things are calm are the two of you able to sit down and talk about what approach you take when they arise?  For example, a situation where she reacts badly to your methods with the kids?  Is there something you can agree you will both follow on such occasions so you're both working in the same direction? 


Now this sounds like a great plan.  Can you make this a priority today? 

As a problem solver myself I did a ton of research into what help was available in every eventuality, both for myself and for my ex partner.  Whether that was something that was utilised or not, I had to know what was out there.  Maybe when you carve out your time for yourself and your study, you could cast a wide net and see what you can find for peace of mind.  I was surprised to see that there were charitable organisations, public services and other private agencies which I'd never come across who offered direct help in so many areas that applied to us.  Just having that knowledge helped ease the pressure of the situation for me. 

I'd like to think that you could find some ease for yourself amid this emotional turmoil that you find yourself in.  You're a very strong and loyal man.  Take pride in remaining true to your values and doing your level best here.  It's clear to all of us how much this means to you and no one can question your love for her.  Put as much effort into yourself too.  You deserve that care.   

Keep us posted on the interview outcome.  Rooting for you both.

Love and light x

Joe,

To be clear, I don't think you should kick her out.  I think over time, you clarify the choices YOU are offering and you RESPECT her choice, regardless of if you agree with it or not.  I get the sense that you believe many of us really want to say "give her the boot"... .perhaps tomorrow or next week.  I don't feel that way.

Solid post.  I see lots of your thinking.  Thanks for being so open.  My responses are NOT criticism but that are meant to shine light on how your attitudes have guided YOUR relationship to where it is today.  If you want your relationship to change, that will have to start with you.



I don't think it ever is a legitimate teaching tool.  Seriously.  I have big family, we swim a lot (I was a lifeguard... awesome job by the way) 

Teach them to swim in safety.  Take those that want to go to the deep end to the deep end and make the others get out of the shallow end and sit on the bleachers.  No big deal, their choice... .they don't want to go to the deep end.  Everybody else goes and even if one says they "can't", they go sit on bleachers and watch the rest. 

What doesn't happen is that the class doesn't stop.  Another lifeguard isn't hired to stay with them in the shallow end.  They get to make a choice and experience the result of that choice.  Perhaps they take the class over, perhaps they decide half way through the "deep end time" that it's time to come try.

I welcomed them with open arms.

Perhaps they decide swimming isn't for them and they never come back to class.

It's their choice, their life.



Right... .I get that.  Then you made choices to "save" her from the results of her choices.  Likely because you "love" her so much.

Boyfriends and girlfriends that live together tend to act a certain way.  You provide certain things and she provides certain things.  One of the things a girlfriend provides is love, affection, calls you a boyfriend... etc etc.

When SHE chose to STOP doing the girlfriend things it is natural to expect YOU to STOP doing the boyfriend things, one of which is providing a place for you to to build a future together.  She has told you she doesn't want that.

 
I disagree. 

Putting your life on hold, because of your love for someone that has told you and shown you they don't love you and want a future with you is a HUGE deal.

Because it keeps you stuck.  It also keeps her stuck. 

Honestly, that is a bigger deal to me than providing a roof. 


I'll certainly let others weigh in here.  But this is not your responsibility either.  Don't over function for her.

Big picture:  We can fill in blanks later.  Communicate to her that this relationship isn't working for you.  You guys moved in together to be boyfriend and girlfriend and be a family. 

That's what you want and that's what you need.  If she is willing to go back down that road, you are ready to walk with her.

If she is not willing to walk down that road towards togetherness, let her know you are sad and respect HER DECISION to end the relationship. 

It's not your job to make this OK for her... .to make ending a relationship easy.  That's her stuff to figure out.


We'll need a separate thread to work on the day to day of what this looks like. 

If someone is threatening suicide, generally best to let professionals handle that.

If someone threatens to leave, express sadness (succinctly) and respect their decision.

This dynamic is likely much more complicated than a couple sentences from me or you, hence my encouragement for a separate thread, just on this dynamic.



Another thing likely better handled in separate post.

Quickly:  Don't hand responsibility for your decisions to anyone but YOU.


Frankly:  I don't see much hope for your relationship to come back together on your current path.  She likely doesn't RESPECT you. 

There are many things you can change, short of kicking her out, to start establishing respect again in the relationship.


Are you really... .really part of a family now? 

How is it your responsibility to kick them out or keep them in.

Look at the shift in thinking... .

"I'm sad my girlfriend decided to end our relationship."

compared to

"My girlfriend ended our relationship, I'm sad because I'm responsible for the results of her ending the relationship."


I think we should have a thread about what "giving up" looks like.  I think you equate giving up with letting her experience her choices. 

I equate giving up with going NC... permanently. 

There are many, many options in between your life now and my version of "giving up".


Relationships are "work".  I'm sure you can find tons of books that say that.  Does she refuse to "work" on her relationship with you?

Really, there are two threads of thinking here that need to be separated.

Is she willing to do what it takes to be your GF?

Are you willing to do what it takes to be her BF?

If both answers are yes, then there is a way forward.  Then all these other details matter.

If either one of you says that you are NOT willing to do what it takes to be in relationship with the other, then the unemployment rate really doesn't matter... does it?


You looked at your knowledge skills and abilities and got a job that matches. 

You are experiencing the results of YOUR CHOICES.


Really?  Is this really what you think you would have done? 


Yes... .

Is that love reciprocated?     

I'm not suggesting any path is easy.  Frankly, changing this will be hard for you.

I'm also convinced that changes will INCREASE the chances that she will reciprocate your feelings.

There are no guarantees in life. 


Yes you did start as a family.  Did YOU decide to end that?  Did the children?

Place responsibility where it belongs.  Let the people that make choices be responsible for those choices and experience the results of those choices.


You are correct.  Or tomorrow.


Please don't find reasons to "wait" to let her experience her choices.


Take responsibility for YOUR suffering.  You suffer because YOU fight against someone who has clearly said and acted in ways that say they don't want it.


Right... I think. 

I still don't understand why you are "doing things to someone" that is unhappy about "what you are doing to them".

I think I have the analogy right.  Do you believe you know better than she does about how to live her life?

RESPECT:  It's easy when people agree.  It's hard when people don't agree.  What I see is two people that don't respect each others choices.

I'm not aware of anyway to have a loving relationship without respect.  Which is why the focus needs to be there... .first... .and then hope the love rekindles.


Correct, I'm not aware of any situation where this kind of help is NOT temporal.


I disagree.  Help and family are different.  Yes I have helped my parents and they have helped me, but by and large we are independent families now, vice interdependent. 

We do have an affect on each other, so we have to communicate in a respectful way and be considerate of our effect on others.


And she has choices to keep you and to say no to you.

Is it safe for her to say no to what you offer? 

I'm not for a minute suggesting she has all the life skills she needs or that she had a good childhood.  I am suggesting she be "allowed" to grow and mature on her own.


Again... .I would argue that HQ did NOT "kick her husband out".  Although I do see that point of view.

HQ said "I won't live this way anymore.  If you decide to live a different way I'll be sad for you"

HQ... .please modify this to be more accurate.  I'm always nervous about "speaking for others"


There are many steps to this.  Let's create a new thread to explore how you can start showing respect and expecting respect in return.



I don't know either.  I would rather not go down that road with you.  I would rather have you make choices and allow her to.  Being in a situation where you "have to" do things sucks.

Looks like I've run out of room.  You have a lot of reading and thinking to do.

FF

 

They told her they'd love to have her. Right away. Now she needs to do a week of training. After that there is a test. Those of the candidates with the highest scores, get in, and the higher the score the sooner you can pick the schedulle.

TODAY I got the phone of one doctor who has to approve my therapy, in order to have 20 sessions free of charge. I would have called, but it's closed on friday. The therapy is in a place I already went after my divorce, I don't like it or the therapist I had then. But hopefully is different, or she can help me better with this.

As I work here, for unemployment, she asked me for a "huge favour" that was to print a paper... .When I was looking for it she told me "I had forgotten that you can spy on people, that freaks me out, I'm completely paranoid! Stop spying on me! Stop spying on me!" So, I closed the chat for a while, and I was mad. She appologized right away. And some time later we were able to talk about her interview. And the conflict didn't escalate.

She's talking about the schedulle and transport to the work-place as if she planned to stay and go to work from our flat.

Yesterday, she told me: "as I am now in better terms with my ex... ." And I said "you are?", she said "yeah. He told me he might come to visit them when the weather is nicer". That would be a first. The ass owes the kids about $7000 in child support, which would take us out of many holes. And maybe as much in "extra expenses" (he's supposed to pay half of medical bills, school activities and such). He makes at least $6000 a month from a pension, and doesn't have to pay any rent (he kept the family house, paid in full).

HQ

When things are calm, she tells me I'm a great father, and that my approach is better than hers. She tells me she whishes she could give the custody to me, and kill herself. Yeah, when she is totally calm, she still wants to die as the best outcome. Very seldomly she has something to live for. She would be happy living alone in the forest, with animals and no people at all. But she gave that dream away when she had kids.

We talk in a civiliced way, but she is hughly ashamed of how she has treated me when she wasn't civiliced. So she gets very sad, and then it is easy to trigger her again.

I'm guilty of not wanting to talk much. When there is no fire to put out, I'm so exausted that I just want to enjoy the little peace I have.

FF

I need a lot of time to answer your post, Wow! I get it and there are some things I can build on.

Hi FF,

Yes small steps are the ones that add up.  My ex was already in treatment when I met him.  He was on the extreme end of the spectrum, very low functioning.  Obviously that wasn't apparent at the time.  However I had been supporting him in organising appointments etc. and I stepped back and encouraged him to do these things for himself.  He used coping skills provided by his P and I attended appointments so that I had an understanding of what strategies would work for both of us.  Observing my limits was my main priority.  I had a firm boundary around behaviour in front of my son, so if my ex felt himself dysregulating when my son was present, he would remove himself from the home and go off to do his coping strategies.     

He was actively suicidal and this was a regular source of unrest (and anxiety for me) in the r/s.  He talked about this when he was calm too.  Joe, my actions were to build a support network for myself and have crisis plans from his P, emergency contacts at the ready for suicide attempts and a safety plan which I produced with a domestic abuse advocate whom I found for myself when the violence began. 

The key steps I took were centred around protecting myself emotionally and physically by detaching somewhat from my 'doing' role, and maintaining relationships outside of the home, with friends and professionals.  I saw a counsellor, my DV advocate and was in regular contact with my GP. 

I'm so glad that you are planning to get therapy.  That safe space to work through your emotions and come up with steps is going to do you a world of good.  It's quite possible that you could have a different T or that as you said, the person you saw previously might be more experienced in supporting you with this present need.  Good for you for pursuing this!     

That's great news about the job!  How do you feel about this?   

 

I hear you.  I've been there too and I can't say I blame you for that.  However, we all know this is the only time that things can move forwards in a healthy way.  When emotions are high, no improvement is going to come out of addressing issues.  What ways of approaching difficult topics have worked for you in the past?  How could you speak to her to create a joint plan for how you will work together on improving things at home without it being a finger pointing exercise?  Think bite sized chunks, rather than a big overhaul conversation.  What do you think needs to be talked about as a priority towards more harmony at home for all of you?

Love and light x 

It sounds like you did not engage on the spying thing.  Such as denying you can spy or talking bout it at all.

Right now, on those types of things, best to not engage.  Silence is golden.


I'm trying to have a "long term conversation" with you, since you are in a multi-year thing.

The job interview and training is a short term thing.

This should be right up your alley.  Give her the support she "requests" to set her up for a good training.

For now... ignore the conversations about ex's, kids, vacations, aliens and pink elephants.  When I say ingore, I'm not saying ignore her.  

"blah blah blah, my ex and I are on good terms... .blah blah blah"  Make sure your response is not shocking or judgmental

Be direct.  "I see... .would you like to talk more about this.  I've got time in about an hour."  No suggestions, hand it all back to her... for later.  When later comes... let her bring it up.  You be present.

As far as the next week (or whenever until the job thing is sorted out).

Be proactive:  "Hey... I'm proud of you for earning this opportunity.  How can I best support you as you prepare for the exam (or whatever it's call)?"   No suggestions... .no solving.  Give her a direct question.

If she flips it back on you... "what do you think... ?"

"Well... I'll have to give it some thought.  You know yourself best.  I'll continue on with our normal routine unless I hear otherwise.  I'm confident you can figure this out."

Thoughts?

FF  

Quote from: JoeBPD81 on Today at 05:57:53 AM

I don't know how many steps I can take before the only thing left to do is that, withdraw my support completelly. I don't know how long it will be before I reach my breaking point and I'll have to do it, even if I think it's completely wrong.


Good morning Joe!

I am very sorry that you are going through all of this; your experiences are similar in many respects to mine.

You wrote a while back about "sink or swim"... .and that triggered a few thoughts in my dusty empty head ().

First one, when myself, and my now second wife were going through a little bit of pre-marriage counseling, well more like an interview with the head Baptist preacher, he asked me a question which I have never forgotten, but first a few facts up front... .we both have grown and on their own children from both our previous marriages, but the caveat for me is that my oldest is a special needs person, he is over thirty now, and is developmentally about age seven or eight, (autism)... .so this pastor sits there and asks me this question, ."So... .you and your wife are in a life boat with your child, and then the life boat is swamped, and starts to sink, who do you save, as you can only save one, your wife or your child"... .oh boy & yeah    ... .a trick question, I of course said my child... .which did not go over so well, and to this day, all these years later, has been laminated, and preserved, and thrown into my face when the need arises... .

Next thought, I remember going through survival swimmer training in the military... .and we were tasked with saving a drowning person in the "deep end"... .and of course you know how this goes, as soon as you get close, the drownee grabs onto you the savee... .and will drown you trying to get their head above the water... .you got to stay cool, calm, and collected, or otherwise you are both done for, and you both will sink down into davy jones locker out of breath, and soon to out of life as well... .kind of like living  (caretaking) with a pw/BPD... .even after all your efforts to "save"... .they will still try to drown you,

Sending good karma your way, hope you are alright, keep us all posted,

Red5

I love the lifeguard analogy.  |iiii  

Since I know Red5 is former military... .I'll spin this into a bit of a tale.  There I was a young Ensign (O-1) in the Navy.  Perhaps I'll let Red5 and others describe how useful they are... .  :)

There was a time when we were "stashed" waiting on training for flying to start, and that pretty much consisted of answering phones, filing papers and staying out of peoples way.  That didn't sit very well with me.  Since I was a lifeguard and had all my quals I took a walk down to base MWR (Morale Welfare and Rec).  

I showed them my quals, told them I wanted to work, word quickly spread (good pool guys are always needed) and for a couple of months I spent my days as a lifeguard.  Put on Navy diver trunks, suntan lotion, cool shades and did my thing.  (where is this story going?)

Anyway... it was really fun.  I also got to work with pulling lots of people out, when I got pulled into recruit training safety.  Basically new recruits get tossed into the pool to evaluate how they can swim.  Many would tell us they could swim... and their skills showed otherwise...  

So... I've pulled out a fair share.  Most with shepherds hook.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0002KQF5M/ref=asc_df_B0002KQF5M5373167/?tag=hyprod-20&creative=394997&creativeASIN=B0002KQF5M&linkCode=df0&hvadid=167126215582&hvpos=1o2&hvnetw=g&hvrand=2019031652477880344&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1017161&hvtargid=pla-307823549959


Anyway... .sometimes you do have to go in and get them in person.  Very dangerous, best left to professionals.  For your own safety, you have to maintain control, which means you try to grab them from behind (so their hands have a hard time getting to you).

Here is the thing... .the rescuer is the one that must stay thinking clearly.  You know the drowning person IS NOT.  For them it is about THEIR SURVIVAL.  The rescuer makes it about their own survival, all the better if they can save the drowning person.

So, if things go south, which they sometimes do and the flailing person grabs you, the "way forward" is to grab them and go down.  yep... .both go under.

What happens is the drowning person thinks you are crazy and lets you go... you get away.  Wash rinse repeat.

What is the message that applies here to BPD land (I swear I'm getting there).  

I'm the rescuer, we play together by my rules or I will let you play alone by yours.  I'm not going to let you drown me.

JoeBPD81 and others,

Can you see how that analogy plays here?  Joe's house, Joe's resources and Joe's rules.   Joe should never feel bad or apologize for running his life in a healthy way.  If that means someone else decides they can swim by themselves... and if that person ends up drowning rather than accept his help... .

well... .that would be sad, but I don't see how any reasonable person says Joe "did this" or "caused this".  It's the sad result of a person that made bad decisions.

Are we connecting the dots?

FF JADE:  I wasn't the one that brought up the "pool analogy" ... .in fact... .never thought of it before.  I think it (in a frank way) illustrates the dynamics in many BPDish/rescuer relationships.

Thoughts?

FF

Man, all these drowning analogies remind me of my relationship with my uBPDw.  You can read all about it below:

---

That's all I've got tonight.  I've been the frog several times myself... .


-Speck

A few more random thoughts from Red5’s MT and dusty attic he calls a brain . 
*caretaker
*martyr
*rescuer
*savior
*prince charming in rusty armor
*dysfuntional best friend in waiting
*enabler with best intentions
*nice guys always finish last
*lost in the sauce

Red5

*mod*

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