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This thread continues here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=331345.msg13017503#msg13017503

Hello. First time poster here. I’ve posted about some of the issues that I will discuss in this post on another (non-BPD) forum and a friend from that site recommended that I check out this one for more discussion around this particular issue.

It’s a peculiar feeling…for one, it’s taken me a very long time to actually be able to think and say that what I experienced growing up was an abusive situation. I was never hit or compromised physically in any way. And the insults and attacks have always been extremely subtle, more like a slow trickling legacy of torments than a series of verbal outbursts and assaults. But it seems like the world is more attentive to the many, many hidden methods of torture used by those on the spectrums of personality disorders…and that we cannot afford to ignore them for much longer (or at least we’re becoming more aware of the negative impacts of allowing these behaviours to go unchecked or even revering them). And the recent crop of articles, blogs, literature, and discussions of NPD finally gave me language and a framework for understanding behaviour patterns that have tormented me since my early teens (I’m in my 30s now).

The primary person involved in this is my mother, although lately I’ve started to realize that my younger sibling (the golden child to my scapegoat), who has been somewhat condescending in their attitudes and behaviour since their teens, has been displaying more and more similar traits. These may end up getting worse with age and some challenging circumstances our family will face for the foreseeable future (related to my mother’s worsening health).

I think it may have really started after an earlier difficult period in my family, although my mother has curiously started referring to always having been a snob. My father became very ill and passed away at an early age, which was a tremendous stress on everyone in our family. I think some of the behaviour patterns that I’ll discuss below may have emerged from this trauma in our family.

I don’t want to get into too much detail about specific examples for the first post, but to give you a general sense of what I experience:

-   “Take down” of any and all of my accomplishments and joys in life
-   An endless sense of competition and comparison (with her and with pretty much anyone who she thinks she can hold up as being better than me or having something that I don't in some way)
-   Golden child/scapegoat set up with my younger sibling for the past 20 years
-   Cruelty/lack of empathy, almost exclusively through talk rather than action but I only really know about what she does to me directly, what I witness during very short visits with her, or what she tells me about
-   Always expects priority treatment/to be put first (this one she's using more and more with her health sitaution)
-   Superiority (particularly when it comes to her perception of herself as always being more intelligent than others and better than all of her many siblings at many things in life)

Although I started reading about NPD about five or six years ago, it took me a couple of years to really get a strategy in place that has allowed me to, at least, maintain some distance from the unhealthy behaviours.

What I’ve landed on for now is low contact and the gray rock method (in person and over the phone) – with continuing conscious boundary-setting for even the smallest things, like texts and emails. I used to accept the texts and emails without question, but have very recently realized how damaging they are to my mental stability and sense of self-worth on a daily basis…even the dread of possibly receiving one has a negative impact.

It feels like no contact would be difficult given her illness…but if the situation deteriorates enough, I may seek guidance here from other folks who have gone through a situation with an ill/aging NPD parent.

Low contact has really saved me from a lot of emotional turmoil and distress. I spent so much of my twenties completely miserable and unmoored emotionally due to the conditional nature of how I was treated by my NPD parent and how my damaged self-worth caused problems in pretty much every other relationship I had: romantic, friendship, work/career/school... .everything.

I'm also fairly isolated nowadays - in general, and definitely within my family. I never knew any of my grandparents and don't have contact with my extended family except through my NPD parent. I haven't used Facebook and the like in years, in part as a means of self-preservation to avoid further abuse.

I'm single and am starting to see the wisdom in ending up alone with no kids... .how could I possibly raise a healthy family in the shadow of a NPD parent with no other support at all? "Family" has never meant to me what it means to other people (love, support, kinship, unconditional acceptance) anyway.

Two things that held me back from claiming what happened (and is still happening) to me as abuse for a very long time, even after I started learning about NPD specifically: Culturally speaking, I come from a background where trauma is very much part of the experience and anything short of murder is “just life.” And, generationally speaking, as someone who fits into the millennial age bracket, being belittled and told that everything we say and do is useless and self-absorbed has made me think that this type of treatment was normal and acceptable to receive as a younger adult.

I no longer believe either of these things.

Still, part of my fear of posting and sharing has been that people will laugh and say “it’s not that bad!” or that it’s all in my head, that I’m being too sensitive, and that I’m lucky if this is the worse I have to go through. I know for a fact that whatever she may or may not have, hers is not a particularly severe case – there is worse behaviour on display in our family even - but I do believe that my assessment is correct that at least some disordered behaviour exists in our family and it has had a long-term, negative effect on my experience of the world and other relationships (or lack thereof). I’m at a point where I think I am finally ready to admit that yes, this happened to me and yes, I have some stuff to work through (I have a good T at the moment who is particularly experienced with trauma-related grief and coping….and am very grateful for that).

I’ve also been afraid that by bringing these things to light and discussing them, it would seem like I’m blaming my struggles in life on my family situation. I’m not…but I am slowly realizing that the treatment I experienced in my teens and early twenties has had a lasting impact that I’ve had to counteract for years (and continue to battle every single day, sometimes interaction by interaction).

Well…I hope this first post was at least somewhat coherent…and thank you all in advance for even taking the time to read as much of it as you are able. Please feel free to reach out if you relate to any of this and would like to discuss further coping strategies/ideas, etc. And feel free to ask about more specific examples of behaviour – I’ll leave those to the private messages for now.

Hope you all are doing OK today in the face of your own personal battles... .

Hi and welcome!  Congrats on making your first post.  It can be very difficult to do especially when you fear it might not be accepted or is not bad enough.  I can assure you that that will not happen here.  We get it, even the doubt.  So I am glad your friend told you about us.

Well, you have to look at the past and understand it to figure out how to change things in the present.  Acknowledging and recognizing the dysfunction is critical to healing.

Your post is coherent!    Share whatever you feel comfortable sharing.  We encourage members to post on the boards rather than share info through PMs as that way everyone benefits.  Your sharing helps others and vice versa.  Plus, when it is all on the boards, you benefit from the collective wisdom, which I must say, is pretty darn good!  heh heh. 

Have you had a chance to read anything listed on the right side of the page?  We have several article there that you may find helpful.  We also have a survivors guide that is quite helpful.  Each item expands when you click on it.

So again, I want to say welcome and I am glad you decided to share.  Please feel free to jump in to other threads and share, ask questions, read, etc.

Take care.

 :hi: aslowrealization,

Welcome to our board family.   I’m glad you reached out and posted here.

You wrote:

Awareness and acceptance are critical and necessary to progress toward healing. I’m so happy to hear you’ve got a good T. Therapy with a good T can make all the difference.

I noticed you have identified yourself as a skapegoat and your younger sibling is the golden child. My mother used to rotate these roles among me and my 3 siblings (I am the eldest), but after I decided not to play along with NPD/sociopath mother’s rules, I landed role of permanent skapegoat. That used to make me feel really angry and sad. But then I read this article and it helped me see things a bit more clearly. Perhaps you’re read it before?
https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/blameless-burden-scapegoating-in-dysfunctional-families-0130174 (https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/blameless-burden-scapegoating-in-dysfunctional-families-0130174)

After reading that article I realized that it’s true, I am the strongest one in my family. I guess it makes sense that they would feel better casting their blame on me (in their dysfunctional world it makes sense anyway) because they are incapable of seeing reality or understanding responsibility. It also has helped me let go of my dream of having a normal, loving family relationship with them. I’m free to choose my family now and I am choosing healthier people who are able to be mutually supportive, loving, respectful, compassionate, kind and accepting.

How do you feel about being the scapegoat?

  L2T

My heart goes out to you being the child of a NPD mother and the scapegoat. I too have a NPD mother and am very much the scapegoat of the family, and I tend to isolate myself. I highly recommend learning as much as you can about being the scapegoat. We scapegoats are often chosen because of our strengths, and being the scapegoat can be much better than being the golden child in the long run. My sister is the golden child and she has NPD and BPD just like my mother. I am in much better shape than my sister having had to pay my dues in life as nobody ever worshiped me. You say you are thinking of not having any children, and that there is a long history of trauma in your family. Your wondering about having children and getting married is something that many of us who have been scapegoats worry about. Know that you do not need to eliminate any options in life as you are worthy of experiencing all that life has to offer. You have the capacity to learn how to have a happy marriage and be a good parent, which is something golden children can usually not do. Do grieve your loses while knowing you can be happy and fulfilled in your journey throughout life. We are here to listen and support you. There are many people on this site who know the pain of being the scapegoat and can share their journey of healing. Keep us posted on how you are doing. We care and are here to help you in any way we can.

 :hi: Thank you Harri, zachira, and Learning2Thrive for your warm welcome. I'm already learning even in my short time on these boards and look forward to becoming part of the community here, which seems quite supportive and open.

Harri, I have started poking around at the articles on the right column. What tends to happen, though, when I try to read that type of material is there's a loud voice in my head telling me "it's not so bad! You're not abused! Who are you kidding? This information is for the real sufferers! You don't know suffering!"

That voice is oddly familiar... .do you have any suggestions on confronting that voice itself, which I imagine can keep so many people from even seeking out earnest help?

Learning2Thrive, I actually just read that article that you linked last night, about the scapegoat! I can see how the strong ones in a family might be pegged as the scapegoats. I think both me and my golden child sibling have our individual strengths, but I may be the one that is less compliant and less influenced by what other people think and do. I've been given the "independent" label most of my life, but since it has come mainly from my uNPD mother, I am starting to interrogate it more as part of the healing process. Is it really that I am so independent or is that an insult that was launched at me the moment I started expressing my own opinions and tastes (particularly as a woman scapegoat)? I don't know if I'm thriving - I've had a lot of tumbles and wrong turns, especially with regards to scraping a career together in the post-recession era, while my GC sibling is the one with the higher paying job at a very prestigious company. Part of my being a scapegoat is wondering if I really am just "less than" while being terrified that my head is getting too big (and *I'm* the real NPD in all of this) if I so much as consider that I might be just as worthy or even better off in some areas.

zachira, I'm in my mid-30s, female, and am just really starting to grapple with this NPD situation in my life. I haven't dated anyone seriously in eight years and am not sure if I should even be "on the market" when I still have so much to work through mentally and emotionally. Something I am also dealing with is the pretty strong possibility that I will not be healthy enough for a long-term, committed relationship for a long time, which would mean forgoing natural motherhood. While I cannot imagine trying to juggle a marriage and children on top of career, which I already find challenging sometimes to deal with on its own, I might not always feel this way... .but most likely, things will not change drastically in time for me to have kids... .and I'm learning to be OK with that.

Hi there! 

I think a lot of us minimize what we experienced.  I know I did and still do sometimes, more in the form of 'wait, was it really that bad?' and 'am I making this bigger than it should be'?  Minimization is a defense and it takes times to break through using it. 

That voice you hear sounds like the inner critic we talk about a lot here.  Check out Shrinking the Inner Critic in Complex PTSD (https://tinyurl.com/yagae3hd).  Pete Walker does a lot or writing on recovery from c-PTSD (complex PTSD).  I am not saying you have this or need the diagnosis though.  I think you might get some insight from the article.  Emotional abuse, which includes an invalidating environment, is pretty damaging.  The voice you hear in your head sounds pretty invalidating to me.  Does it echo some of what you heard growing up?  It may, it may not.  Either way, that voice is a liar.   Sometimes, telling the voice to shut up works quite well.  <--- no I am not kidding about that! 

Hi aslowrealization,

Welcome to our online family!

Your feelings sound so oddly familiar. 
I have been on these boards for several months now. I came here looking for tools to interact with my mother with BPD traits in a healthier way. Like you, my childhood abuse was very subtle. It was verbal, and it was very often more a lack of things like empathy, love and attention. I have often felt 'out of place' here, because my inner critic was loud and clear: I did not belong here, I had nothing to complain about... .what was I thinking?
But the tools here really help, and the people here really get it.
I still have a hard time reading those articles on the right. I get you feeling uncomfortable. Give it time.
Post away, ask questions. Do not hold back in sharing experiences. It is so healing to feel that others get it, that you are not alone, and that you are not insane.

Having said that: you are not alone, you are not insane.
You have a right to work through these things and build on your own inner self and strength. 

Take care,
Libra.
 

Dealing with a seriously ill uNPD is extremely difficult... .I might need to make a separate post or find an existing thread at some point, but there is so much guilting that goes on with a very seriously ill person. My uNPD parent got scheduled for major surgery today. The date is in two weeks. GC sib and I got a group text about it. GC sib immediately starts making offers to spend a whole month with uNPD during and after the surgery. I reach out to uNPD in a separate text to let her know that while I can only be there for a few days, she can let me know what would be helpful, especially during the time when she comes home.

That wasn't good enough.

uNPD mother wants all her children crying and carrying on by her bedside on the day of the surgery to look good for the extended family, friends, and medical team.

She made it quite clear that she cares less about my coming when I might actually be helpful to her and a lot more about being able to say to her siblings "yeah, both my kids are flying out just for my surgery" and having us both there to manipulate and guilt that week.

I was trying to avoid this as my emotional state isn't great right now in general and I do not think I can handle the level of manipulation she's engaging in right now.

I called uNPD and of course she lays into me with "I expect both my children to be there because that's what families do" and "if both you and [GC sibling] were like you, this would be a nightmare"... .GC sib is of course handling everything perfectly and will be the perfect ill mom kid trophy winner, no matter what I do or don't do... .which is part of why I didn't jump right into the "I'm going to rush to your bedside!" routine.

Of course she told me "well, I can't help who you are, that's who I raised, you're just independent and you have to be true to yourself"... .not meant as a compliment. There's something wrong with me, not her. She's a perfect person and a perfect mother, so why doesn't she have her kids rushing to her bedside? (just imagining her thought process right there)

She also finally admitted that the doctors have been hesitant to schedule her because they don't think she has a strong support system... .I wanted to scream "And whose fault is that?"... .of course, I said nothing of the sort.

She admitted to hiding her mental state from the evaluators for her surgery... .some of this is complicated as they do want a "perfect" person to approve for these types of treatments... .so is it uNPD or an extremely challenging situation.

I haven't mentioned this... .but... .something I've been dealing with is... .not actually feeling anything about her emotionally. This surgery is serious... .she really could die in it. But the history of abuse and belittlement is so bad that I really don't feel obliged to do for her "as families do"... .but I can't tell her "you abused me- that's why I'm not bending over backwards for you right now" especially when she's dealing with something so hard.

Just needed a little vent... .thank goodness for T... .coming up later today.

Hi aslowrealization,

Health issues always make things so much more complicated.
I am glad you came back to post about this.

There are no rules as to what families do for each other, only expectations. These are your mothers' expectations. This is what she wants.
What do YOU want?  You are an adult. You get to decide what you do and do not want to do, not your mother.

It sounds very much like your mother is using FOG - Fear, Obligation, Guilt. There is an article on emotional blackmail and FOG I suggest you should read:
https://bpdfamily.com/content/emotional-blackmail-fear-obligation-and-guilt-fog (https://bpdfamily.com/content/emotional-blackmail-fear-obligation-and-guilt-fog)

Do you think this fits in your current situation? 

Love and caring should not be a competition. You've got nothing to prove.  You cannot change the expectations your mother has, nor can you change how your sibling will react. You can only control what YOU do.

I am going to quote Panda39 from another thread:
More on JADE... .
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=139972.0 (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=139972.0)

I get this... .very much so. 
I was "trained" to react to the whims and wishes of my mother. I have not been given much room to develop and nourish my own emotions. I think it is normal that I do not "feel" for her, that there is no bond.

Maybe there are other ways you could communicate to her that you will not comply to her wishes? You reached out to her and said you would come over a couple of days to help when she would come home. Do you still want to do that? If you feel strong enough, this would be a good instance to set some boundaries and stick to them. Have you read about setting boundaries yet?  https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries (https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries)

I seem to be bombarding you with reading material. There is so much to learn, so much that might help you through this. Please take your time to read and digest.

Take care,
Libra.

Thank you, Libra, for those resources and terms... .this is all so new to me. And keep 'em coming with the articles! I'm the nerdy sort that really gets into a topic, and this PD spectrum stuff is no exception. I will take some time to review them closely, but I wanted to share a few more details that, in my clouded, upset mind for a few days after the incident, I'd forgotten.

A couple months ago, uNPD mother and I talked at length about what I am capable of doing to help her out right now during this illness. During these conversations, she insisted that she was OK with me being able to do shorter, more limited visits. I was honest with her that I cannot do the pick-up-and-move-in-and-become-caregiver, or even longer visits (I allowed her to think that it's because "that's just not me" which fits with her scapegoat assessment of me, but it's really 100% because of this abuse). She said "I get it" a lot (she was a caregiver for my very seriously ill father for seven years - which adds an extra layer of FOG in the situation). She assured me that she had this and that friend helping her out and it was OK. We knew a surgery date was coming. My GC sib had committed to being there whenever the surgery was scheduled - he had time to set something up with his job about the situation and they agreed to let him jump when he needed to. I thought we were OK with the plan of: GC child and any other extended family and friends who could make plans on short notice for the date will be there for surgery, some extended family and health aide can assist during recovery period (initial is three months, long-term will be several months, maybe up to 6-9), and I could come back if/when needed (which is why I suggested the hospital/home transition as a possiblity). I thought she was OK with that plan set several months ago.

Then, two weeks before the procedure, she suddenly throws on a pile of guilt. In that one conversation with her, she tried to make me feel guilty about doing something I love that meant living far away from her for a while, acted like I'm the abnormal one because "that's what families do," played Rational Rhonda (haha, I just made this term up but this is something she does any time I get upset or show emotion in reaction to her uNPD behaviors: talks real slow as if to an insane person, says "I understand" a lot, and pretends to have empathy. There is no empathy there- it's a power move- "I'm the rational, sane one, you're completely crazy."), and even tried to blame the delay in the surgery on me ("The doctors think I don't have a strong enough support system!" - who knows if that's true). She kept says "Just tell your job your mother is having [extremely major surgery]... .if they don't let you have the time off, they don't," making this into an issue of "any normal person would run to a parent's bedside and if you tell your company this, of course they will be on my side." She often assumes what I think and feel, and this includes assuming that I want to completely nix the plan we had (for good reasons) and run to her bedside.

So you can see why I was upset... .I have some health issues of my own that I really need to focus on for the next few weeks, so I was really relying on the plan we set to be OK for this particular surgery. Instead, I get piled with guilt and "shoulds"... .I think because she is feeling very judged right now, both by her medical team and by our extended family and friends, who likely hold those "it should be your children!" views.

Something good did come out of this: I was validated in my perception that this abuse is very real and that my boundaries are completely warranted, no matter how anyone else might judge me.

One thing I've had to do in all of this care-of-aging/sick parent is remind myself that we have an extreme situation. My mom is widowed and very, very ill requiring one of the most complicated procedures possible. When I read about people taking care of aging parents and jumping right to so-and-so will move in with me... .I have to remember that these are often established people in their 40s, 50s, maybe even my mom's age (60s) often with enough resources to set the boundaries they need should the situation include abuse or other serious interpersonal challenges, even those that come naturally with the aging process. My sib and I are relatively young (30s) to be dealing with all of this for a second time already. Although my sib has more money, both of our resources are fairly limited.

But extended family expects so much more. I've witnessed my uNPD mother talk on the phone with my possibly uBPD aunt (oh boy, that's another post... .) and dog this or that cousin if they thought they weren't taking care of an elderly or sick parent the way they should, or even paying them enough attention (it's quite possible that some form of abuse exists in many of the nuclear families in my extended family... .I only know a lot of the details second hand, though, and no one talks). I think part of this is my mom is terrified of being talked about behind her back by all of her siblings (most of whom could have some degree of PD based on the stories I often here second hand). One of my aunts has just started sending my GC sib and I generous monthly checks, one each month, "for airfare". The implicit message is "one of you should be visiting your mother every other month"... .folks... .I cannot commit to that because of everything I've written here and so much more... .I am returning her check with a kind note.

Also, as an aside: I would like to apologize if these long, frequent posts are breaking protochol in any way. If so, please let me know and I will hold back... .everything is very raw right now and once I start typing, it all just floods out... .but part of being a child of a PD/uPD/PD traited parent (especially a scapegoated one) is fearing that you possess any sort of disordered behavior reflecting your parent's... .I have that fear a lot, even when trying to seek help!

So it's all kicking off now... .uNPD mom is heading into surgery in hours, GC sib is with her. I have to admit, I'm fighting a lot of guilt about maintaining my boundaries while GC is there (they said they're "not handling it well" but I can't tell if they're just afraid of the outcome of the procedure, if it's because of some of mom's behavior, some combination of the two, or something entirely different)... .but they did offer to go. I don't think she's at her mentally strongest (which means her uNPD behavior could be increasing) but I don't know for sure since I've been in the doghouse since standing my ground about not dropping everything and going at the last minute. Apparently she's in "good spirits" (why wouldn't she be, she's going to be catered to by a number of family members and friends for a very long time starting now... .the last time she was in the hospital, when I talked to her she sounded practically high going on and on and what this and that person did for her, and all these people were calling and so concerned, and the hospital gave her a special meal, etc. etc. etc.). And, if GC seems uncomfortable to uNPD mom, this is something else she can hold against me. I'm sure she thinks I should be there just to support GC... .and, of course, to give her her usual supply... .like a convenient little chew toy or baby rattle. And I'm almost certain that both of them will assume that this means that I now "owe" them being there for the next procedure she has. That's one thing I'd like to learn how I can break: the expectation that I have to do everything parallel and equal to GC.

In spite of my guilt, I held my ground with not accepting texts this evening and, as a result, missed her asking for a phone call by a few hours... .I don't think anything good could come of it right now... .since I had my realization about all of this, every interaction or contact from her is making me physically ill (my chest actually aches and I get slightly nauseous... .it takes about 20-30 minutes for me to feel normal again after each text or email). The timing of it all is unfortunate but I need to put my own mental - and physical -  health first right now. I just feel like I reached a breaking point where even if I wanted to go and do it just to appease her, I couldn't without the risk of a nervous breakdown. I texted her back and she didn't mention anything else about calling. If I did talk to her, I imagine she'd lay the FOG on very, very thick, maybe even chuck in a "well, if these are my last words to you... ."

The boundary-setting under these circumstances is hard and feels cruel... .but then I remember back to all the times when I thought to myself "well, why not?" and "maybe it'll be ok"... .only to get the usual PD-trait torments. Part of me wonders if her reaching out for a call wasn't more for appearances than anything else. If so, I'm no longer playing along with those types of games... .this is the new normal.

Meanwhile, I've been studying as much as I can about NPD (I found some books specifically for daughters of mothers with traits falling somewhere on the NPD spectrum) and preparing to work with my T on next steps. Has anyone read anything (either books, online, etc.) that's been helpful for giving you an idea of the range of options for healing?

The situation continues... .surgery went OK - there were a few complications which have led to a longer path to recovery. She has been very weak from what I hear and only yesterday called me for the first time since before the surgery. I suppose I should have felt warm and tender and concerned about her. I didn't. I haven't been. It's a tough place to be emotionally, having all of this ripped wide open right as two high-stress PD-related events are happening (when the PD is seriously ill and the holiday season). She seems to be doing OK - while the phone call felt generic and play-acted (as in "I should talk to my daughter since we haven't talked for a while"), she didn't have enough energy to get any major digs in. It lasted four minutes total.

We don't know if she'll be back in her home yet for Thanksgiving... .whether or not she is will make all the difference in how it will go. If she is home, I'm not sure what the plan is for her care - she may need to have a health aide to assist her during the initial time, which would overlap with Thanksgiving. If she is still in rehab/PT, then we will probably plan to visit her for the Thanksgiving meal where she is. The second situation might be a bit easier to manage.

The first might be tough.

I've been looking at airbnb to see if I can find an affordable place to stay near her area but it's an expensive one with few options in my price range that wouldn't require pricey ubers or 2+ hours on public transport to get to her area. If I had enough money to stay in a hotel, I would do that in a heartbeat. If I found an affordable one, I would reserve it as a "just in case" she does end up being back home.

I've been dreading Thanksgiving so much, it makes my stomach twist in knots if I dwell on it for too long. In general, I'm ready for more boundaries: not NC (but this is on the table as something I might consider later on in the journey), but no phone calls (even when she's sick/in hospital), no texts or emails, only 1-2 visits per year if that, no holiday or birthday gifts either way (I don't even want to do cards but how do I say that?), no Mother's Day, and no extended family events. Most of these things I've been doing unofficially to some degree for a few years, but the no calls and no holidays is new. I'm starting with no Christmas this year (as in I will not travel to where either she or GC sib is and will celebrate the holiday season on my own with church and rest). We'll see how that goes and take it from there.

I'm continuing to work through all of this with my T but it's a tough road. I'm not married and haven't been emotionally available enough to have more than acquaintances for years so I really am well and truly alone in the world now... .just yesterday, I had to tell an organization that I don't have an emergency contact. There really is no one. And I do not think it is fair to ask for support from someone I do not know very well when I am not able to give it right now. Sometimes I feel like I'm at the bottom of a deep, black well and have no way and no hope of ever getting out. I don't think this is the case - healing is possible - but not without making some painful and difficult choices and possibly losing a lot more before things start to get better.

I've been wanting to ask... .is anyone here religious to any degree? I am and dealing with what all this means from a faith-based perspective is a journey in and of itself. I know that there will be a lot of judgement and misperception coming my way, possibly for the rest of my life, but there are also some strong resources out there for those of us who find we cannot outwardly live what others might deem a "good and righteous life"... .I carry a lot of guilt about not being able to serve or do ministry as well (I'm too emotionally bankrupt right now to go about it with an open and service-minded heart).

Hi aslowrealization,

First of all   

I hear your anxiety, your conflicted feelings, and your loneliness   

Maybe try and slowdown, you are dealing with a lot of stuff all at the same time.  You need to remember to take care of you.

So it sounds like the plan is for mom to go home around Thanksgiving if she is doing well enough.  This might be a bit of a double whammy because there is pressure for you to be there for your mom and the holidays are often pressure packed on their own, maybe upping the anxiety some. 

Step one is getting your mom home.  Focus there, try and stay present.  I feel the anxiety about Thanksgiving but that is still in the future and an unknown, try to let that go for now.

Where is your mom now?  Still in the hospital?  A Skilled Nursing Facility? Are you able to talk directly with her doctor about her status? 

I'm glad to hear that you continue with Therapy, that can only help support you.  When I hear someone talking about a deep black well (because I have been in it too) that to me sounds like depression and you might want to make your Therapist aware of those feelings if you haven't already.   

I too for a long time did not allow anyone to get close to me, I didn't want anyone to know the dysfunction, my depression, I thought I could "handle it", I hate asking for support because I thought it made me look weak or stupid, I felt I wasn't worthy of support.  I finally reached out to some of my work friends and once I did they stepped up for me.  Have you tried talking to any of your acquaintances at all?  It might be worth taking a chance, you never know who will be there for you.

I'm glad you came and posted today.
Panda39

Thank you so much for your hugs and support Panda39   

I should note that I am not actively managing my mom’s care at this time. Right now, she is in a specialized center for her condition and will possibly be going into rehabilitation by the end of this week. After rehabilitation, she should be released home. One of my aunts is her official support person (and did the training involved) and my sib, who has been staying there in town since the procedure, has been updating me at least once a week on her condition. I haven’t spoken to anyone on her medical team personally. I don’t think there is any information about her condition that I need to know right now apart from what my sib has been sharing.

What I have been doing is keeping up with the updates and praying/asking people to pray for her. But my mind is full of imagined resentment on everyone who is getting more involved with her right now’s part. It’s true – some or even all of the people might resent me, but to walk this road, I am learning to live with the discomfort of being shunned or disliked. I am also trying to remember that some or even all of the people may have offered to do what they’re doing without expectations or judgments.

As for acquaintances…honestly, it was kind of scary to admit how isolated I am, but I'm glad I did it. I know that there are others out there who are in the same boat…and I think it should be something that we’re able to admit to without shame or fear of being labeled as having something terribly wrong with us. Lots of people joke about not having friends, but it’s a reality that many of us live without laughing too much about it (well, sometimes we can laugh about it).

I am actually meeting with one of my acquaintances later this week and we will be talking about this situation. I am extremely grateful to have this particular person in my life.

Hi
I just wanted to say thank you for posting. I totally understand as I'm a child of a NPD father and NPD/BPD Mother and the scapegoat on both sides of the family. They had a crazy abusive marriage and divorced when I was 7. You are on the right track reading on what you can and posting here. It has helped me lots as the patterns of behavior are so similar. Its puts rules to their madness that you feel only you experience alone. I know it is so hard to manage so many emotions in these situations. Just remember to love yourself and don't get guilted into anything. Make sure to protect yourself from more abuse. If you do end up seeing your Mom I suggest you have some space between you. Maybe stay at a hotel and if you feel you are getting abused leave and go back home. Make sure you are getting something positive out of the relationship and experience for yourself and make sure you are prepared not to take any cruel comments to heart.

Oooff, this sounds familiar.  My mind would come up with all sorts of things and I had to talk my way through it and breathe.  What are you doing to help yourself with this?

you are not alone in this.  Lots of people, like you said, are in the same position.  I am right there with you.  I am working on it though.  I am glad you are getting together with someone later this week.  Do you have a hard time getting yourself to want to go someplace?  I do.  Once I get there I am usually fine, but getting there is a big deal for me.

  I know several people here are.  I would encourage you to start another thread and, if you want, you can put in the title Christian focus only or Jewish only etc. 

I think you are managing all of this very well and I am glad you continue to reach out.

This is wonderful, I'm so glad you've reached out.   

We have all of our own insecurities and that inner critic can do a number on us.  I think we forget or don't realize how much we can mean to someone else.  Everything isn't one sided, we go through our daily lives and touch others too.

By sharing you will discover who your real friends are.  Some people will step up and others won't don't take it personally, just embrace those that support you and support them right back.

I hope you'll share how your conversation goes.

Panda39

So we met and talked about everything that's been going on. Phew. Wow.

I will be honest - I felt so awful and drained afterwards that I was questioning whether or not it was too soon to disclose all of this to anyone other that a T. The place I'm in right now emotionally is not cute and my usual perceptive and empathetic and insightful self has been taking a back seat when it comes to my mom right now. But she was supportive, albeit in a bit of a tough love kind of way. The religious aspect of it plays into this as well. She encouraged me to look at the bigger picture of existence in which all is healed and forgiven (including my mom's behavior). I am having trouble doing that being in such a place of pain and grief right now. It's hard not to hear that as what we go through in our lives on earth is trivial, especially when religion so often points to suffering worse than mine and shows how people are able to smile and serve others through it, wipe the wounds of those who wounded them, even desire more and more suffering. And if you're not smiling and peaceful about the bigger picture of life over all suffering, something is wrong, you need to pray more, etc. I'll be frank: I have a lot of trouble reconciling this healing journey with what my faith teaches about suffering.

But back to the conversation... .she was very understanding about my boundary choices, we talked about the societal expectations... .we covered a lot of ground! She's going through some challenges of her own right now and still she took the time to meet with me in my state and I very much appreciate it. I still feel a bit gross and sad this morning from having stared down a lot of the ugliness in my own words out loud but I don't regret reaching out.

Hi aslowrealization,

I'm glad things went well.   I hear that it was somewhat uncomfortable for you to share what's been going on but I'm glad you pushed through that and talked to your friend.  It's my experience that the more you push through those uncomfortable feelings the easier it becomes going forward.

Talking about what's going on in my opinion is much better than stuffing it.

In terms of your friend's advice, take from it those things that work for your situation, everything she suggested may not work for you or may not work for you now, but might later.

In terms of all things being "healed and forgiven" in my opinion you don't get to that place overnight.  It takes work (which you are doing  ) to heal and forgiveness that will take as long as it takes.

I think a step before that is "radical acceptance" the ability to accept that your mother is who she is, that she likely won't change, and being able to be comfortable with the discomfort of that. 

Following radical acceptance I think grieving would follow, the loss of the mother you wished for.  Then maybe you get to forgiveness.  Not forgiveness of her past deeds or abuse those things will not be forgotten. To me forgiveness is about accepting she is who she is and letting go, forgiveness is for you so you can stop being attached to that past pain and can move forward. I will also say here that forgiveness is really hard when someone continues to hurt you... .you get reminded over and over of the hurt and the pain. To me Forgiveness can take a while to get to.

Suffering... .there is no suffering competition.   Suffering is daily, it is big, it is small, it is a place where we can learn, things like empathy, overcoming struggle, giving & receiving support, sometimes we can grin and bare it, other times we can't, it all depends on what it is, who we are, and the tools we have to manage it.  Do we need to seek out suffering, no... .the goal is to lessen the suffering but I would say it's always there... .in something as simple as a stressful day at work, or in a memory, but we don't have to wallow in it to prove something.

Panda39

Hi aslowrealization,  :hi:

I have not yet joined the others in welcoming you, and I am glad to do that now.  

I like how Pete Walker approaches the idea of forgiveness and grieving:
Forgiveness: Begins With The Self (https://tinyurl.com/ya8wmhcm)


People can mean well, but is this the place that God wants you to be? What is His plan, not that of the church or well meaning friends? I've had to struggle through the "shoulds" to find the right path and to follow God's leading in my life. How does God see you? Don't focus on your mom for now, but rather on how much God loves you, if you can. Yes, suffering is a part of being human, but I don't believe that suffering is our purpose. We each have to figure out what it is that God created us for, and in the end I believe it's to have fellowship with Him. Go back to the book of Genesis and read the beginning with eyes seeking new truths when you have time.


The first few times (and sometimes even now) that I shared my story with a friend, I felt like I was walking through mud. So hard! And when you communicate about something that has affected you so much, like a BPD parent, there is a mixture of fear and relief all stirred up, and your body isn't sure which way to go. As you carefully choose who to share with, you may find yourself relaxing and learning to trust a bit more all the time.

Looking forward to hearing more from you!

 
Wools

Panda39, I recently listened to the first part of "Will I Ever Be Good Enough?" (again, shout out to my local library  :heart and the author mentioned the radical acceptance step as being the first one as well. I'm working on it... .I think a little part of me still thinks that maybe I won't get bruised every time I reach out and act, that maybe this interaction is so small that there won't be any form of manipulation. I'll get to an example of why that is a harmful belief to hold in a moment... .

I do think some level of forgiveness will come... .we're not talking kumbaya and hugs and tears... .but making peace with it... .I have hope that it will come to pass.

Woolspinner2000  :hi: thank you for your warm welcome! And thank you for sharing your thoughts on the faith aspect of this journey. I actually did pray a bit on all of this and read through some of Genesis yesterday... .just grounding myself in God's love and His plans and hope for us without getting mired in the details... .wow... .I just sat with that quietly for a little while, drawing strength from it as Thanksgiving nears.

... .which brings me back to the question of radical acceptance. My mom has been feeling a bit better and with Thanksgiving being on its way, the time has come to make solid plans. I missed a group text she sent to me and GC sib last night (looked like condition updates based on sib's response) but she also sent a group email suggesting that we order Thanksgiving dinner. The email was basically "here are two options (fairly basic ones) but you can google to find more".

I saw this email and knew immediately that it was a set up by her to regain the power in the relationship between her, myself, and my sib. She needs to assert her dominance and this is how she is choosing to do it. With a competition. Who can come up with the best Thanksgiving dinner option? 1-2-3... .go!

In my mind, I thought: how do I respond? Immediately, I knew I could not offer any additional suggestions. They would definitely be shot down or ignored in favor of GC sib right now, who is in her good graces for flying out for her surgery. How much of an opinion do I include? Anything I say or do will not matter. Do I just ignore it and let GC sib respond, agreeing with whatever they say?

I landed on responding that either option looked good, but delivery available for one made it a stronger choice (as it is unclear whether or not she will be in her home and I know my sib isn't arriving in town until Thanksgiving morning. I will be in town but will not be able to drive and pick up the meal). I also asked if any other family would be joining us (since there have been some people in and out of town). Focus on logistics. Leave out personal preferences and questions of taste (which here represent one's overall level of sophistication and, by extension, worth as a human being).

GC sib responded next with two high end gourmet options. uNPD mom responds to that email praising one of GC sib's choices in particular, saying that she'd forgotten it and that she used to eat from there all the time a few years ago. She ignored my message completely, not even confirming how many people we might have for dinner.

I admit, I got a little upset. She ignored me, and it feels like a deliberate tit for tat on her part (because I have been "ignoring" her during this part of her illness). But I breathed, took a rest, then responded that sib's option looked delicious and gave them props for a good find.

Phew. I wrote all of this out so that anyone reading can see how something seemingly trivial functions in the hands of a PD/uPD/PD-traited individual as a tool of emotional and psychological manipulation. How we, as family members, partners, friends, associates of such a person must think about how our actions will be used against us. How we have to hold back our giving heart and open nature in particular situations, because they will only bring us more pain.

Part of me did hope that she would, at the very least, respond to confirm whether or not anyone else would be in town. But she is herself. She chose manipulation and pettiness over a simple confirmation. If I radically accepted who she was, would I have simply not responded to the email instead, not even giving her the chance to ignore my question?

I cannot tell you how many times I've thought about doing or getting something special for my family members for the holidays, and how I've had to remind myself that these actions are only opportunities for barbs to be shot into me and that right now, I need to minimize those opportunities. I love getting gifts for people and coming up with something that will help them in some way, that they haven't thought of, that will bring them joy. I love trying to come up with interesting options for food to make a holiday special. But I'm staying very aware of the impact that my actions might have right now, while I'm very much in the doghouse. I can't have hope that even the tiniest gesture will be met with anything other than manipulation, even if it doesn't end up happening for every little thing. I need to tread very, very carefully.

This will be part of my MO this holiday: when she praises someone else (especially my GC sib), I join her. I've done it in the past and it can keep some of the attacks at bay. As long as I don't show any sign of injury due to her favoritism.

I also may have a solution in place that will keep me from staying in her home during the holiday week. Stay tuned... .

Glad to hear you figured out a solution to the Thanksgiving dinner caper.  Sorry they are leaving you out like they are but good for you in the way you handled it.

Good.  What do you have in mind for handling any attacks that may get through?  Are you comfortable saying No, or Knock it off (or something along those lines)?

We can work out some strategies if you'd like.

Hi aslowrealization,

The Thanksgiving questions from mom to you and your sibling was a form of triangulation and you took yourself off the triangle.   

Your mom is baiting the two of you to compete and you didn't play the game. Nice Job!  It isn't even about competing for the most fancy Thanksgiving Dinner, it's about competing for your mother's love, affection, validation... .puts her in a position of power. I know that you feel excluded or not heard but the whole thing was bait.  On the surface it looked like a completely normal question, but there is a whole other thing going on under the surface. 

My mom doesn't triangulate but I definitely recognize that in her eyes I will never be as smart, perfect or wonderful as my brother. I've come to accept this and know that this is only her opinion, related to her own issues, and I'm still great and it's her loss that she doesn't see it.

I hope that you can accept that you are great just as you are, and there are people in your life that love you just the way you are.  You don't have to try and fit in your mother's little box of perfect to be loved, and you don't have to compete with your sister to be loved.  You can choose who your "family" is.  My "family" at this point in my life doesn't include a lot of contact with my brother or mother. When I do see them I just follow along with whatever they have planned.  Frankly, I do an obligatory visit every so often. My real family are my SO and his daughters,my son and a small close group of friends, these are the people that love the authentic Panda just as she is.  These are the people that have my back.

I'm not sure if Thanksgiving falls under the Karpman Triangle necessarily, but I thought I'd share information on the Karpman Triangle because it might be something you have seen in other situations.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=108440.0

Panda39

Great work aslowrealization! 

I agree with Panda39 that you took yourself off the triangle. I know it was hard, but you did it! The aspect of not fighting for ourselves can be tough to absorb, but really it's not the absence of fighting for ourselves (as I play a twist on words here). You are not fighting against others in order to be heard and not run over but rather you are fighting for you and your healthiness by stepping away from the entanglements. Does that make any sense? You aren't manipulating or controlling them but rather learning how to dance differently and step out of reach of them.

It's seeing yourself and them with different eyes, knowing you have so much value. Are you familiar with the term JADE? We often use this to help us maintain guidelines and remind ourselves that we don't need to JADE  (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=139972.0[b).

Wools

Thank you all again for sharing your thoughts, offering your support, and just generally listening and being so gosh darn understanding   I want to continue my healing journey next month and into the new year... .but, first order of business is going to be surviving Thanksgiving ::imagine this is a flaming turkey emoji... .or tofurkey for the vegans::

I spoke on the phone with uNPD mom tonight. Earlier this evening, she sent a text asking about my Thanksgiving plans and when I would be arriving, mentioning that it would be a good time for my aunt (her designated carer) to take a break. The text made it sound very much like she expected me to spontaneously take over for my aunt something we never talked about and I definitely never agreed to (and something she never expected from GC sib, who was there but never the actual primary carer). With no training. No preparation. Guess I'm just supposed to use my mother-serving female daughter magic or something.

I bit the bullet and called her to square away what next week might look like... .again aiming to focus on logistics. She started off the conversation by going into this long vent about how my aunt wants to go home to her family for Thanksgiving but it's a mess because she is the only one trained to change her bandages, and apparently her medical team will not let her hire anyone because (here's the refrain) "it has to be a family member" (which I really don't understand... .a professional health aide cannot be trained to change the bandages?). When I tried to explain why I would not be able to do it (I should not have done this), she said "oh, of course not, I know" and went on to talk about how it took a whole week just for my aunt to be trained. I misstepped. She made me "jump" by making me defend my decision not to be her designated carer for over a month... .once again. That's all it was about since she already knew there was no way that I could do it. This may sound cold but something like that is really the kind of thing she and my aunt should have talked explicitly about before the procedure, and both of them should have confirmed that there was a doctor-approved back-up plan in place. There really is nothing I can do about it. I messed up by falling into the trap and justifying my position once again, but I can see clearly what happened in hindsight. I should probably take a closer look at that JADE article, Woolspinner2000 

The rest of the conversation went OK. We basically just talked about how the plan would either be for sib and me to have dinner with her at the rehab facility (more likely) or order the famed Dinner of the Great Thanksgiving Dinner Caper of 2018. It's more likely than not that I will only be spending time with her on the day though if she is back home I may end up there on Wednesday night as well (I will be trying to avoid this).

That one interaction at the beginning of the phone call was enough to make me realize just how exhausting dealing with this kind of behavior is. It didn't upset me the way it might have even a few weeks ago... .but it feels like a game that I do not have the energy to play for more than very brief "matches" few and far between.

On the bright side she didn't say anything about my staying somewhere other than her home (which I am planning to do). Perhaps it helps that she most likely won't be there herself and, thus, wouldn't have that direct 24 hour access to supply and control.

Panda39, I am trying to keep this all in perspective and maintaining a vision of the world outside of the suffocating family one, where I'm the designated bad guy, is going to be a challenge next week... .but, depending on how it all unfolds, may be possible even in the days around Thanksgiving. I'm planning (and hoping) to celebrate the rest of the holiday season in a way that reminds me who I am separate from my family of origin.

Harri, you mentioned that maybe we could talk a bit about what to do when the barbs come while I'm there? It's easier to brush it off over the phone... .in person, much harder (though I can say no and stand my ground... .it's more an issue of picking up on the attack earlier and not getting involved). I may come back and post once I know whether dinner will be at her home or in the rehab facility, as I imagine different challenges will come with each situation... .

(https://pics.me.me/when-turkeys-you-want-a-piece-of-me-10143333.png)   

FOG (double Obligation) Obligation to take care of her and Obligation to give your Aunt a break.


This is BS, I worked in Case Management for an insurance company, home health care would definitely be an option... .might even be the preferred option.

Again Obligation... .Family is Obligated to take care of me.


Yep, JADE... .don''t beat yourself up you're learning new skills and it will take practice. 

Next time... .I'm sorry mom I can't do that... ."why?"... .because I can't, I'm sorry. Repeat over and over until the message sinks in 

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CgHmuBhWwAEjQxf.jpg)

In terms of preparing for your visit I wanted to share "Wisemind" with you.  I practice this when I'm with my (non BPD but critical/controlling mom).  The first time was ironically during a Christmas visit to her... .those pesky holidays!  I didn't know there was a name for this, I just did it on my own.

For me I can only describe Wisemind as being in the interaction but also observing the interaction from the outside.  Approach the interaction with your mom like you are sitting on a park bench watching the two of you having a conversation.  More emotionally detached... .if you saw the same conversation between two strangers what do you see?

The first time I used Wisemind, I was feeling pressure from my mom which triggers me... .I for years tried to meet her requirements/definition of a good person/daughter. this time instead of reacting I started watching and I realized she wanted me to do something and was pressuring me in a passive aggressive way to do it, but interestingly she never actually asked me to do anything... .you know what this Panda is not a mind reader.  I just sat with my discomfort from her pressure and didn't respond... .I decided to wait for her to ask me to do what she wanted me to do.

The whole interaction wasn't about me at all, it was about her inability/discomfort around asking for help.

I've had other experiences with this and my mom... .My mom, her boyfriend, my brother, my son and I were in the car.  I was talking about something, she didn't like what I was talking about so she cut me off and changed the subject.  In the old days that would have hurt my feelings but again in this situation I was able to see that this was her problem... .
It was about keeping up appearances for her boyfriend, I was not behaving in a way that she would so I was shut down.  I did not continue the conversation because it made her uncomfortable but my feelings weren't hurt.  It's too bad that she will never know the authentic Panda because she can't tolerate my differences from her.

Anyway it might be something worth trying/experimenting with when you visit, I find being that observer helps me take things less personally.

You might play a game like... .look for the FOG because when you can see it, see it for what it is (emotional blackmail), you can take it less personally and better react to it.

Hang in there, the holidays are always tough and know that every family is not a Hallmark Card, we are real people with complicated relationships.

Panda39

Panda39, that Wisemind technique is very helpful to know about... .it will be a part of my Thanksgiving armor ::gracefully suiting up emoji::

I'm afraid the rest of this post is going to be a bit vent-y, as I am still dealing a bit with the persistence of this behavior and how it taints even the smallest of interactions with my mother.

The good news is that as far as the plans are concerned, we have our final information. She will still be in the rehab facility and we will be having dinner there. My firm plan is to see her for that period of time only (a few hours) and to return home on Friday.

The bad news is that as I set boundaries, she and my GC sib are trying their darndest to invalidate and ignore them.

When I talked to my uNPD mother on the phone on Tuesday, I told her that I would be staying someplace else (not her home) while in town. She followed up by asking where I would be staying and I told her, so I know she heard me. I found it a bit strange that she didn't seem to react to this information at all, but figured maybe she just has bigger things on her mind right now. I know she's unwell but I sort of doubt that this is the type of information that she would easily forget. Nevertheless, this is the email I got from her this morning (with some notes on how I interpret her behavior).

1) A generic greeting hoping that I'm having a good week and that I have "planned a restorative weekend." To me, this says "that's you, just sitting around relaxing and carefree while I'm suffering" and "you better brace yourself for entering into the stress and hell that I've been going through." Of course, she has no idea what I've been going through with this realization (and doesn't care).

2) She let me know that my aunt was returning to DC today and provided details on how I could collect the keys to her place. Also got a little power dig in there by reminding me that I'd have to call her so that she could buzz me in to her front gate. Um... .what? See below for the analysis on this.

3) Closed off with an excuse for telling me what she knows is irrelevant information by saying that she's "overwhelmed" and doesn't remember who she told what. An indication that she can and does use this illness to manipulate even more than she normally would (remember that she will be some variety of ill for the rest of her life- we'll get back to that after the holiday season passes) and a reminder of how many others are stepping up for her by staying in her home and taking care of her.

I think she lost the battle with getting my aunt to stay with her and is feeling de-throned (don't know a better word) right now. As soon as whatever supply that she was getting from my aunt started to fade, she launched an attack at me. She sent this email very early in the morning. She knows full well that I told her I'm not staying at her place. But she did this anyway.

GC sib has sent a text asking what "date and time" I'm returning home. I think both of them may have assumed that I would be staying at least the full weekend (no) or even longer (no). I will need at least the weekend to recover from whatever happens this week before I go back to work and continue to move forward in all of this. I'm not putting this on me because if they were so concerned or were making plans around it, they would have asked when I booked the ticket over a month ago.

After each of these incidents, I laugh to myself a bit, cringe, write it all out, get a bit sick to my stomach that this is the reality of my relationship with my mother... .and move on. As for dinner, my plan is grey wall wisemind, calm & firm no's, holding my position about Christmas, and responding primarily (if not exclusively) from a list of phrases I've written out (feel free to use any of these in your own holiday capers if they will help!):

- I'm sure you'll figure it out.
- It's done now.
- I'm sure the medical team can help with that.
- I'm sure the medical team has seen that before. They'll know what to do.
- I'm just getting some tests (if she asks about my medical situation).
- There's a plan in place (if she asks about my financial situation).
- It's settled (on Christmas).

And the flip side of this is that your boundaries are about you and govern what you do so how they react does not change how you respond.  I am not saying that to make it sound easy because I know it is not... .just pointing out a different mind-set that may help.

Good.  Let her digs and attempts to make you feel guilt (or whatever) just sit there.  Not taking them on is excellent! 

Those are great phrases and I am glad you have them ready.  If you haven't already, practice saying them out loud so they feel and sound more natural should you need to use them.

Do you feel better about your visit?  Is it a relief dinner will be at the rehab place?

Harri, I do feel better about the visit than I did at the beginning of this month. I realize that boundary-setting is a job that's never done and that smaller challenges may continue to pop up with every single interaction. Unfortunately, the meal being at the rehab is no longer certain and we won't find out for sure until Mon/Tues.

This is why... .I found out earlier this afternoon that my mother didn't tell my sib what the meal time block is (she sent a screenshot of the flier to me so she knew exactly when it was). Sib is flying in early that morning and had already told her that they want to nap before heading over to dinner, which apparently she was OK with. She also accepted the money I sent her to cover the cost of the meal. The set meal time is quite early and if we arrive together (which we will need to do), we'd just miss it. I asked my mom to see if she could find out if we're able to eat a little bit later, and she said she'd ask, but also indicated that she would be OK just eating the meal in her room and sib and I could go out to dinner. Now I have the possibility of having to dodge out of a meal with sib (I do not want to run the risk of there being any attempt to "talk" about what's going on right now on top of the issue of a Thanksgiving meal out being outside my budget, putting sib in the position of power as the one who may pay, on top of the issue of her putting me in a place where I either have to choose the meal open to her remote manipulation or be the "scrooge" who "causes" my sib to not have a holiday meal... .I realize she may have been trying to set this up all along). The other concern I have is that the rehab place is in a location that can only be accessed by car in a ritzy suburb, so the only emergency escape option I have is praying that an uber/lyft is in the area that afternoon and that the holiday upcharge isn't too much or calling a pricey cab (if it gets bad enough, I will just suck it up and charge the fare).

Since mom has been communicating more with me lately, it's possible she's in one of her GC/scapegoat role switch spells because of something my sib is doing or refusing to do. They did set a boundary of their own by saying they wanted to nap before going to the meal, which I was glad to see and communicated as much to them.

Another option would be to go out and meet her for the meal earlier and sib can arrive when they do, but I want to avoid setting up even more opportunities for her to split and compare us. I imagine I'd either have to hear about how the "real meaning of the holiday is time together" or put sib in a position where they are the bad guy for missing the Meal.

The boundaries that I now want to keep are that we either have the meal at a later time with her or visit with her that afternoon but plan to eat on our own before and after (no meal out). Those are the two options. Sib not having a holiday meal, if it turns out that way, would not my fault since they are the one arriving outside of the set meal time and my mom is the one who knew before today and did not speak up.

I will practice the phrases and prepare as best I can, but the only real assurance is that the holiday is only 24 hours long and will eventually end.

This stuff is really like fighting a villain in a story where there's a twist! Then another twist! Then, surprise, yet another twist! I bow my head in respect to those who are more involved with PD/PD-traited individuals on a regular basis, this is exhausting.

Yep, you've got this.  (stick with me)  You know all the ways this can play out but you have your boundaries set in your mind. 

If your sister makes a choice that results in her not having a family dinner it is unfortunate, but it is her choice.  You have already stated what will work for you and you have other plans if theirs should change.  You are not at their whim.  You can visit and  if need be, you can leave.  Keep all money, keys, phone and purse etc on you or within reach.  Seriously. 

Another phrase to add is "that is your choice"
"that does not work for me"

Well, please add "I've got this".  That does not mean you won't feel sad, uncomfortable, tense, etc.  It does mean that you can handle this.  You can take care of what is yours to take care of (you) act within your personal values so you are not lashing out (as if you would) and you leave them to think, do, say whatever.  You don't have to own any of it if it does not belong to you. 

Yes, it is exhausting and hard and I feel fortunate that my battle, for the most part, is mostly done at least in terms of relatives.

Awesome encouragement and game plan, Harri!

Aslowrealization, you are soo much farther ahead already than you were last year and even a few weeks ago! I know we tend to be hard on ourselves when we feel like we failed at achieving our boundaries, but please be kind to yourself. Seeing what happened, even in retrospect, is opportunity for growth. And that you are definitely doing. Hug yourself instead of getting irritated because you need the reward for seeing with new eyes and hearing with new ears. 

Wools

Well. It came. It happened. It went. Overall it was fine. I’m on a train back to the place I’m staying. Alone. I’m safe and relieved.

As she’s in rehab, she has been getting plenty of top notch attention, which she let us know many times over (not in a “I appreciate what they do” way... .in a “this says something about me and my status in the world” way). Having a good stream of care and attention meant that the attacks from her were kept to a minimum. Of course she let me know that some family acquaintance sent her balloons (my sib asked if they were the ones their friend, who mom loves and has said she wish she had as an in law, had sent) and she made this comment: “you don’t hear from the people you’d expect but you do hear from the people you don’t expect.” You know she relished the moment she asked me to push her in her wheelchair (sib jumped at the chance most of the time) and I had to take my “rightful” place. She made me take her to another room for two seconds and go right back. Total power move.

I stepped away a lot, wrote up much of this post while I was there, and ended up staying much longer than I would have if I were on my own (since sib drove).

But I was (and am) OK.

Two things surprised me a bit about the visit. One was how much when there is a GC/SG dynamic, the GC constantly caters to the PD. My sib was the one giving her the positive comments, telling her she was healing up nicely, offering to push her in her wheelchair and take care of her, getting things for her, offering to visit every day while they’re in town. etc. I refused to play along. I helped when I was asked but did not try and “out-care” my sib, even as I saw them puffing up with their own supply.

The other wildcard was that a very chatty fellow patient was sat at the same table as us. I was doing the best I could to be grey, blah, and calmly responsive. This meant not trying to make typical nice conversation as this would be yet another competition. This lady interjected with her own questions, when did we get there, when are we leaving. Then she hit me with a “you’re so quiet!” (as an introverted person, I’m all too familiar though I haven’t gotten one in years). I looked her dead in the eyes and said “I know” and just kept eating. She chuckled. I saw my sib smirk out of the corner of my eye. Sometimes not playing means not caring if you don’t come across as the nicest, even to people other than the PD. Not being mean, but being neutral (which, especially for women, can feel like mean). This same lady made some joke about her daughter being jealous of her granddaughter for buying a new house (so she bought a stove) and went on about several of her successful grandchildren (except one)... .I’ll just leave that one on the table as I definitely don’t know enough about her to say more.

On the flight over, I casually watched the movie “War Game”... .not realizing that it was a perfect pre-PD family encounter source of strength. *Spoiler alert* The movie ends with the lesson that because the game of war is impossible to win, the only way to “win” is to not play. I didn’t play, friends. I did not play.

I also told her about Christmas (sib, who said they weren’t going to be there, now says “maybe”)... .though I’m fully expecting to get a “so when are you flying in?” text or email from her in a few weeks. I am becoming more and more OK with not paralleling sib in everything, even if it’s a bit scary right now.

Whew, whew whew... .taking a break just to be for a little while this weekend... .then soldiering on.

Hope you all who are celebrating are having/had a nice or at least manageable Thanksgiving... .it will end, it will end, it will end... .

You got through it!  Of course you did, I never doubted that... .but you got through it!  It sounds like you handled things very well too.

Try to imagine for a minute what life must be like for your sibling.  I'm not trying to get you to like them or anything but maybe get some perspective on this (don't know if it is needed though.  If it is not, just ignore this next part).  Being the golden child, with all the praise comes at a heavy price.  Heavy enmeshment, poorly differentiated self, being ruled by Fear, obligation and guilt.  Sometimes we forget that the GC or split white sibling was/is abused pretty badly on an emotional level.  It is sad really as so few ever come to the realization that they were abused, like many of us who were emotionally abused.

Anyway, that is where my head went when I read the highlighted part of your post.

It has been a few hours since you left.  Are you more settled?

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on my sib, Harri... .I didn’t quite know how to articulate it when I’d come right out of that experience but that is actually a huge part of what I saw when I came to this encounter with fuller knowledge and awareness of this behavior... .like I could see how my sib is (from my perspective) manipulated by her and falls in line so quickly that there really is no space for more of a back and forth or attempt to balance out some of the care... .It was like it was so automatic on their part to respond to her demands that neither of us could pause, take a breath, non-verbally say “you get this one?” “It’s ok, I got this”... .which, if we were, might actually break the cycle of supply and control. Instead, it was like watching someone else race to get the cookie that was dangled out by mom time after time after time.

There were times I thought about checking in with them, broaching the subject somehow... .are they OK? How do they feel about responding to mom right now? No, really, it’s OK to say the truth?

But I’m not sure how I would do that. I barely even know how to relate to them right now as everything felt so much more like a competition than I’d even imagined, and while mom didn’t personally attack or put me down much, sib did say a few things that either emulated what she usually does or got her into what I can only call a (u) narc to (u) narc conversation (mostly revelling in proximity to high status in some way, talking about how well they caught on with various aspects of the care process/understanding the surgery, or putting the other members of the extended family who’d been involved down for how they handled things/not being as quick to catch on). It’s hard not to think of all of this stuff as perspective... .maybe they’re perfectly okay with how they relate to mom? Maybe they have their own reasons for doing what they’re doing and see catering to her as part of a trade off?

So basically... .it feels like my sib could be suffering in this as well or because of their own way of looking at the world, they could be totally okay showing up, doing the song and dance to keep in mom’s good graces, and then going about their business. Or maybe a bit of both, or something else entirely? There is possibly a lot more to the story than what I’m able to see.

Yes to all of this.  We have no idea, unless they say something, about how they feel or how much awareness they have.  For years I struggled with the question of whether to tell my brother any of my thoughts about my mom.  I finally decided that I would not say anything.  He was (and still is in many way, still connected to her (she is dead btw).  It has taken about 16 years for him to be okay with knowing that I did not like our mother.  loved her, but I do not worship her and i don't talk like I do.  I never bad mouth her to him (or anyone really) and I am very careful of what I say or joke about (I have a warped sense of humor).  Every T I have had has said to let him come to his own conclusions about her. 

As I have healed and just with the passage of time, I was able to let go of the need for him to know or to talk about it with someone who lived it with me.  The fact is that while my brother was horribly abused and in my mind worse than I was, he had a very different relationship with her than I did.  Who am I to judge it or him or try to educate him?  Some things come up.  For example a couple years ago I said to him "I know mom treated you really badly" and his response was "she treated me just fine".  I backed off.  He is not ready for it.  If someone is in denial, it is not for me to get them out of it.  I am not qualified given the kind of abuse we both went through.

Anyway, what you said obviously touched a part of me that needed to talk.  Sorry to make this all about me. 

Are you able to see who your siblings are apart from your mother?  See them and appreciate them for them rather than having your perspective of them colored by how they respond and react to her?  It took me a while to be able to and to get beyond the anger and resentment I felt towards my brother for being the one she liked the best.  It took a while for me to see the price he paid.

You are right.  Your siblings may also be getting something out of the relationship they have with her and you know what?  I am okay with that too... .well, not that I have anything to say about it.  That is their choice and denial or awareness, they are responsible for their choices and all choices have consequences. 

Okay... .I am full on lasagna and turkey and way too chatty.  Not sure I am making sense so i am going to stop here.

Take good care.   

It sounds like you’ve found a resolution to that “do I tell them?” question that you are at peace with, Harri. I’m happy to hear it  It can be difficult when we cannot share these insights with someone who we’ve spent so much of our lives with (and could potentially be someone we can support and be supported by in healing and coping) but we can’t make anyone see what they’re not ready or willing to see. It’s possible that the passing of your mother makes things even more difficult when it comes to seeing it all, as sometimes we have a rosier picture of a loved one we’ve lost. It doesn’t help that there are many social benefits for playing the “good child” game, especially when it comes to mothers.The thought of losing these benefits alone could be a huge barrier for some people to begin this journey.

I admit I struggle with separating my sib from the NPD-traits they may be exhibiting as a way of connecting with mom or may actually be who they are (just as mom is who she is). Either way, my radical acceptance needs to include both them and my mom for who they are and how they are relating right now. It’s something I would not have picked up on without this family time, so some good has come  from it.

Lasagna and turkey sounds delicious! Enjoy that food coma and thanks again for sharing your thoughts this evening.

I'm so happy to hear about your Thanksgiving.  I had a Christmas with my mother that was much the same.  I was present and in the interactions, but also watching them too.  When our perspective changes it's very enlightening to look at all of these family dynamics.  I like you saw some things going on with my interactions with my mom that I hadn't noticed before.

In terms of Golden Child & Scapegoat... .neither are a good place to be, both are painful in their own ways and have their own repercussions.

Some related reading... .

BPD Behaviors: Problematic Parenting... .
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=65426.0

BPD Behaviors: Splitting... .
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=62033.0

Emotional Incest (in terms of your sister - but you could have experienced some of this too)
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=127914.0

Panda39

Thank you for posting those links, Panda... .some of what was written their did strike a cord. From the first one, the pedestal and inconsistency were most familiar. Following "inconsistency," she generally splits my sib white and me black but this shifts and changes, even within one conversation. With emotional incest, I absolutely felt like a third wheel on Thursday, especially when mom and sib were reminiscing about all that happened during the surgery period. But third wheel (or not a wheel at all!) is a position that's more than welcome to me on this bicycle of abuse.

From my perspective, this behavior picked up when my father became very sick and eventually passed away and has gotten worse with the fact that my mom is now going through a serious illness of her own. It's possible that the insecurity that is prompting it comes from not having a partner by her side and desperately trying to make a number of people fill that role for her (and lashing out when others show anything other than complete devotion - she even criticized my sib for "allowing themselves to be controlled" by one of their friends who was simply inviting them to an event this weekend... .ha). I largely refuse and my sib seems to be complying. It's even the little things, like she tried to show me the incision scar and I politely declined, telling her that it was private (and still didn't budge even after both she and sib jumped to saying "well, [sib] saw it."). The expectation that we're responsible for her happiness is definitely there, even though it's not something that I think people should look to their actual partners for. Doing to contribute to a partner's happiness is one thing, but it's quite another to rely heavily on compliance or certain behavior from any other person for one's "joy cookies" in life.

Now that I'm settled and home, mom seems to be freaking out a bit. She sent me a "sweet" had-a-nice-time-love-you message Thanksgiving evening and I responded something echoing it. Today she sent me an "is everything ok" (this seems common with PDs when boundaries start going up) and even pulled the "I've been having dreams" (she does this when she feels like she needs to manipulate others into believing that they are unwell  (or split them black in her own mind) so much that allegedly the old southern "mystical realm" (often, she'll say her own mother came to her in a dream) has us "pegged"... .I will not fall for this faux-spiritual pulling rank of sorts any more. I suspect she and sib have created a narrative in which I'm the unwell one (not helped by the situation of a third party- the lady from dinner- who might support their assessment). I think the thing that might be terrifying her most is that I may finally be on to her game (true) and actually cut her off (possible), then she'd have to look bad in front of the rest of the family and her friends.

I did answer back with a calm and simple response that said that I am not unsafe but have realized some things lately and do need some space for the time being. No response back yet.

Just a quick note to say she did respond. Basically she just said she respects that I need space right now, she's available to talk when needed and that I "don't have to be alone"... .in her mind, I have some sort of issue that has nothing to do with her, and she's nothing but a good, supportive person. This is fine - I did not expect her to pick up on the hints that the issue might be with behavior coming from her and the family. I don't know if there is any reason to make that clear, at least not at this point.

  The only reason I can think of has to do with you but I am not sure if it is important to you.  We each make our own choices.  Sometimes saying something can be healing.  Not because of any expected response, that they will hear us or even apologize, from them but rather to hear us speak up and tell our story.

I never felt the need to do so.  For me it was more important that I speak up about present things and say no and leave the past for me to own and deal with.  Being comfortable and confident in my truth without needing validation from them was my goal. 

Anyway, I think you are handling this very well!  How do you feel with your mom thinking that you have some mysterious issue you are dealing with?

For me, the healing from naming this and saying it out loud does not depend on saying it to her or having her accept or acknowledge it. Same goes for everyone in my family. It feels uncomfortable right now, that from my view I’m setting boundaries that may be written off by many or even most in my family as me being unwell. If that is the price of a chance at healing then I will take it.

I am now more aware that this is the very sort of gaslighting that can keep people trapped in abusive relationships. If the abuser switches gears suddenly when the target of abuse starts to pull away or changes the tone of interactions, suddenly the abuser puts on the “heeeeey, I’m a good guy. I’m just worried about you. You look sick.” act. Then the abused might be tricked into thinking “well they really are just a concerned and caring person, maybe something really is wrong with me and my perception.” Nope... .not today, ma’am.

I also remember what would happen if I acted how I actually felt. To be honest, I had a wonderful week and very enjoyable solo day on Wednesday. If I weren’t gray rocking it, I’d be cheery and bright. I would have loved to be able to talk about all the things I saw and did and some of the truly beautiful moments I’ve had since I saw her last... .but that’s not our relationship. When she asked me about work and I told her it’s been a bit busy leading up to the holidays, she immediately went into one of her stock stories about how she worked over one holiday at her job with a high status company over thirty years ago, but said “never again” because she has a family (she mentions her old job a lot, I’ve noticed, when she’s feeling insecure... .it came up a number of times over this visit... .my grad school graduation weekend was an absolute nightmare). I didn’t say anything about working over the holidays... .I just said were busy leading up to them. But she had to try and get a rank pull with a dash of “family first” guilt in anyway! This simple exchanged showed me that things could have gotten much worse if I expressed any joy about... .well, pretty much anything.

So, long story short, she can go ahead and think what she wants, as it’s not based on how I actually feel but rather how I have chosen to act around her right now to counter this behavior. Even then, there is nothing “unwell” about developing coping strategies for risky encounters with abusive people. If someone tries to write you off as unwell, even going to lengths of pulling from some external source of authority (eg- dreams, “hunches” or instincts, the false “I know you better than anyone” line, “so and so also said”), do not believe them, friends. They do not know the truth about what you’re feeling right now and they definitely do not know you better than anyone else.

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