Print Page - Question on Documentation of Events

Well, as stupid as this sounds, I'm not quite sure yet. They have a "verbal" agreement of 50/50 custody. My son wants to have papers drawn up that state 50/50 custody and no child support. He wants to have her and him sign this in front of a notary. I do not believe that she will sign this. She has a little girl from a previous relationship and he told my son that he did the same thing and she would not sign it and took him to court, won full custody and child support awarded.

With BPDs it has been said to me that past behavior is a good predictor of future behavior. I have no idea why my son believes she will go along with this.

The documentation is important to me because they separated on 04/16/19 and soon it will be 3 weeks since then. She left the house and has been sleeping elsewhere every night leaving the kids with my son. He has been the primary caregiver of both children pretty much throughout the relationship. For the past 3 years, she has gone out with girlfriends clubbing, admittedly cheated on my son with a man twice her age and went on 4 different trips (one out of the country) with other men. She is doing something she calls "modeling;" but they are either half or full nude shots. I do not see how someone like this can be a good mother and positive influence to her children. We have been around her for 5 years and have seen the lack of ability to really be a mom, a positive influence in their lives.

I'm sorry I'm rambling on to a question that could have been answered yes or no, but as most of these cases, it is complicated. I don't know, and I don't think my son knows what he is doing right now and I'm trying to pick up the slack by protecting him as well as my grandson by at least documenting different actions day to day that we will have no way of remembering as time goes on. It is chronologically done with specifics to it and done in such a way that it is easy to read. I don't know how much this matters. I know my opinions of her do not matter in a court of law. These are just facts that have occurred.

Such as, in the past almost 3 weeks, she has seen her children a total of 5 times (not both on all occasions), and each time returned them early to my son. She does not keep plans she makes to have the kids on certain days or times and just "lets my son know she can't do it for whatever reason" because she knows he will keep them. She is used to this behavior because he has let her get by with it.

I have probably said way too much by now, so I will end this. Any info you can give would be helpful and I appreciate your time. Don't know if I mentioned, but in case it is State sensitive, this is in the state of Illinois.

Danali60, it's a good question.

I documented everything I possibly could and used it to help my L strategize. Documentation is gold in a contested custody battle, especially with a high-conflict person. Plus, during conflict it's hard to remember the order and sequence of so much chaos. Your son is lucky to have for support.

Related, I would get a copy of Splitting: Protecting Yourself When Divorcing a BPD/NPD Spouse by Bill Eddy and give one to your son. Even if your son isn't married the book has a lot of good advice about custody battles with high-conflict people in family law court.

For my case, I captured all texts, saved emails, and kept a Google calendar tracking important interactions. I entered things like doctor appointments, teacher conferences, phone calls, important dates (like ex not showing up for something, or particularly nasty conversations, behaviors) and also reminders of things that directly impacted our son. When it came time to prepare for court actions, I printed out the calendar in agenda view and everything was printed in chronological view, a real time saver that made for easy reading and remembering.

I kept everything in a binder and had tabs for each section. Substance abuse, name-calling, stonewalling, negligence, threats. I know there were others, but those are the ones that come to mind.

If she has a history of making false allegations, it might also be worth it for your son to keep receipts. Just put them in an envelope so if he has to discredit an allegation, he might have proof showing his whereabouts.

I also journaled in Google docs, which we never used but it did help job my memory. In our case, we did a deposition and all of the documentation made me a very credible and organized witness compared to my ex, who showed up with virtually nothing but hate and anger and arrogance.

The other L saw that we had two binders of emails and later he admitted at that point it was better to try and settle out of court. He could tell he was on the losing team.

Eventually, he withdrew from the case because he was offended by ex, who began to insult him and question his character :(

If your son is underwater and trying to juggle in the deep end, your help will go a long, long way. And keep posting here for support. There is a lot of collective wisdom for exactly the situation your son is facing. People here will walk with you and your son, too, if he wants to know he isn't alone

Thank you LivedanLearned for your response. You stated a lot of helpful things here and it has encouraged me to document further. I think that our son is getting info from various sources, but circumstances are different for every situation, so he does have an appointment for a consultation with an attorney (a benefit through his work). I believe he gets a free 30 minute consult and then the clock starts ticking and he has to begin paying. We are all a little nervous about that part because she has basically drained him dry financially (but he allowed it by trying so hard to keep her happy). As a result, his finances are limited. He does have a good job, but also lots of expenses.

I know I need to understand that he is in a different place than we are mentally and emotionally. It took us less than 5 minutes to get over her leaving - my husband, myself and older son have had a very rocky relationship with her, so the only loss we were feeling was for our son and how he was feeling. Right now, I can only document by what he tells me and keep track of it as best as possible.

For instance, she has first said Friday (last night) would be the first night the kids could stay overnight with her as she had to get their beds together. Then she told him she couldn't do it because she had a bachelorette party to attend. Today, Saturday, she tried to explain, with my son present, to her 5 year old daughter that she had a "surprise" for her! I'm thinking surprise? It was the announcement that she and my son were no longer living in the same house and she would get to stay at her house sometimes. Is it just me, or what the heck kind of "surprise" is that to a kid who is deeply attached to my son? He met the child when she was 4 months old and has functioned as her primary care giver ever since. He spends more time with her than her own mother and father put together. I don't understand her way of thinking at all! She acts like a silly teenager sometimes instead of a 25-year-old mother. Very inappropriate. She once told us when our grandson's hair was actually hanging in his eyes and had never gotten it cut yet, that she felt bad cutting his hair "because it belonged to him."

Am I missing something here or what? I feel nervous for her to have her daughter full time let alone my grandson!

My son is also struggling with the idea of, if the kids are not doing well adjusting some evening to being at mom's new place and she calls him (and she will, believe me), should he allow her to bring them back to his house, which they know as "home?" Or hold her feet to the fire and keep them both there? Or pick up his own son and leave her daughter only? He doesn't have the heart to do any of those things and not sure if he ever will. He is just a good guy who is too good for his own good and it's coming back to bite him in the rear!

What do you think is the appropriate thing to do in a situation like this? Today, my son had a work event to attend and he will be home a little before 2:00 p.m. She has both kids right now and is returning our grandson to our son at 2:00 p.m. and driving her daughter to her dad's afterwards. Free weekend for her! Now she says first night will probably be Monday night when they can stay. Why not tonight? It is because she can only handle the kids for short periods of time. We have seen this for the last 5 years. Her frustration level is very, very low and no patience.

I'll just sign this, very worried mom/grandma!

Let me start with this blunt observation... If the (disordered) future ex is willing to leave the kids with the more stable parent then don't try to find ways for the ex to take more time.

Edited to add: I would never refuse to accept parenting time of my child just because it was not my scheduled time. I would not block without basis, it could be used against me in court if I couldn't explain why. But demanding the problem parent take her time? No way. Many of our ex-spouses were very entitled and needed to posture as the better parent but it was always documented otherwise - over time.

Most of us here have the normal caring outlook, wanting to always be good, not just look good. It's also how we got into such deep problems with the disordered ones in our lives, we cared about being fair and nice. So we tried to appease and tiptoe around the rants, rages and whatnot. As you've discovered, appeasing and tiptoeing doesn't work long term. The problem is that court generally won't care very much how good the stable parent is. A saying around here, The parent behaving poorly seldom gets consequences and the parent behaving well seldom gets credit.

What that means is that if the problematic mother is not actually taking the children as much as expected, then rejoice and document it in a log, journal, calendar, etc. You're not blocking, you're just allowing the parent to find her parenting comfort zone. Now is the time to document it. (Critical: Don't share this strategy with the ex! Don't feel you have to be overly fair, you know you won't get it reciprocated. Don't help her sabotage your parenting efforts.)

I don't know how the ex got full custody of her first child, perhaps the father didn't try hard or was sabotaged. Typically courts are very reluctant to discourage a parent, well, unless there is substantive child abuse, neglect or endangerment. That's why fathers generally can get at least joint custody and alternate weekends, often more.

If dad can provide documentation to the court that over an extended time mother was elsewhere (more occupied with adult behaviors and relationships) and not focused on parenting, then he can hope for more than equal time. Yes, perhaps court will be reluctant at first, but over time it is really possible.

Be aware that if he didn't adopt the other child, then as stepfather he may not have parenting rights, or at least limited ones. A lot depends upon the mother (what she is willing to allow) and the father (how much he wants to step up). This matter is just one of many to include in legal consultations.

The key is that he should not assume society's view of father's rights (be non-Primary Parent, start a life elsewhere and open his wallet) is the only outcome possible. He needs to be sure the court every time is informed he is willing to step forward as an involved parent. Well, already has.

Just any lawyer... probably is not up to the arduous ask to get a good outcome. Many lawyers are proficient with settlements and hand holding but not necessarily with conflict and court litigation.

On the bright side, your son potentially may have one thing going for him. His ex seems to be preoccupied with various aspects of her life but not so much her parenting. Did I get that right? Most of us didn't have distracted ex-spouses.

Thank you for your reply Forever Dad!

You really brought out some good points. Yes, you are understanding everything I have said regarding the girlfriend. The first 1-1/2 years or so of their relationship was okay regarding her wanting to be with my son; however, there were always "oddities" regarding her little girl (who is now 5 years old). She seemed to always want to make her reach milestones, so to speak, too early. Example: Setting her bottle across the room on the floor when it was time for her to eat just because she was showing signs of crawling and she wanted her to begin crawling so bad because this was a step toward making her more independent. She wanted her to be independent as soon as possible, which would mean less and less she would have to do.

Also when she did feed her (before trying to crawl), she never held her. She would lay her on the couch, prop her head up and try to make her hold the bottle way before her little hands were capable of doing this. She she would be frustrated by it, hold the bottle in her mouth while she was still laying on the couch and use her other hand for her phone.

I'm telling you this because of this crucial time in a baby's life - bonding with their mother. I never saw that occur between the two - instead of looking into her mother's eyes who should have be holding her and feeding her, she saw the ceiling instead! May sound trivial to some, but the type of behavior had been going on from the start. That's why she hit a gold mine with my son who filled in the rest of the time as mommy/daddy and she was free - didn't want the bother.

Restaurant dining was horrible - she would deliberately place herself somewhere at the table where she was as far away from her daughter as possible so she could eat her meal and let others take care of her. All of us were so puzzled by her behavior, we even played a part in enabling this by taking care of her daughter as well, feeling bad for the baby.

Now that she is gone I don't know how she will handle things. All I have to go on is what I have experienced over the past 5 years with her own daughter and now my grandson. When she is with them, she is really not "present," with them. It seems she has been only able to tolerate being with them for short periods of time. She never liked staying at home just playing with them, watching a movie - none of that. She was only happy when shopping and spending money (or I should say my son's money), and/or eating out. Other than that, it was time out with her friends, and now we see, boyfriends.

I felt right away this was my son's "ace in the hole" so to speak. Other than documentation, I know it will be hard to prove all of the things we have seen through the years, and how much will the judge accept from my husband and I as his parents or his brother. They may discount us as witnesses because of who we are to my son.

I'm also dealing with being ready and willing to document and work towards proving her an unfit mother, for lack of better words, but my son is only feeling this way "some days," as he is still flip-flopping, I guess going through the grieving process. My son does not have any rights legally at all to the 5 year old little girl, but loves her dearly, so he has a double whammy here - losing his girlfriend and the daughter as well. So his son is who he is fighting for - I just have to wait until he gets more"fight" into him; and it makes me nervous because I don't know how much time we have to spare. He is going to make an appointment with a legal aid service his work offers. He is also a procrastinator, which drives me nuts! So much of this is out of my control until he is ready.

Hey...might want to discuss some terms here.

"Admissible": Just about everything is "admissible" in court. What you want to really ask is "Is the information relevant"

Follow that up with "how does this information affect how the court sees (ex) as a parent"

So...you are not trying to paint the ex as a "bad person". It's got to relate (dots connect) to care and upbringing of a child.

So...nude photos. If she goes and is some kind of x rated model, yet it's done in private. Probably not a thing.

If she has x rated photo shoots in front of children...you can see how a judge would be interested in that.

Middle ground: What if she regularly provides a child unrestricted access to a computer...where these and other similar photos can be viewed.

Back to documentation: For now...track everything you can. Don't try to tell a story, just let thing accumulate. Primarily you are looking for being able to prove number of nights/days of custody.

Second: Track/prove agreements (even verbal ones). Hopefully you can get them via text.

Then after a few months figure out a follow through rate.

So..judge:

My son provided 83.5% of the overnight care for this child in the past 4 months. 60% of that care was planned and 40% was unplanned.

For the 40% unplanned, here is the proof of plans that were made and you can see 70% of those plans were abrogated on the day where my son expected to have "time off" parenting. Even then my son covered 100% of this unplanned time.

So judge, given all that we request primary custody and decision making since my son it the only reliable influence in this child's life and has taken the child to 100% of the doctor visits, even though ex agreed to show up at all of them, but actually showed up at none of them.

Do you see how the data starts to "weave" a narrative. Let the data tell the story. That will take time.

FF

Many new members here arrive with the outlook "she's a good mother but..." or "he's a good father but..."

Typically those are a person's perceptions which is understandable. They've tried for years to encourage and guide the other parent into better behaviors. The problem is they didn't succeed but are still used to perceiving snippets of acceptable behaviors as basis to still continue giving the other more credit than is appropriate. A person who will regularly (and the pattern is increasingly) rant, rage, demand, neglect or whatever at the other parent or, worse, at the children, is NOT a "good" spouse or parent. That perspective is only acceptable while you are struggling to improve the other's patterns AND you see improvements over time. If there is no substantive improvement, if things continue to worsen to the point that the relationship has failed, then you have to (1) accept that reality and (2) deal with "what is" and not "what you wish for".

Once your son can accept the reality that all his attempts to appease and mollify - however well intended in the past - have failed, then he can "call it like it is". Then he can review his perspectives and perceptions, emotionally accept that a parent who has serious parenting failings AND is not consistently working to improve them is not a "good" parent.

About Formfliers latest post... he touches on a point that is crucial to consider. Courts generally don't care about adult behaviors. Most states are No Fault states and don't care what the adult behaviors were or are. Maybe there was infidelity. Courts don't care. Maybe the other parent spent money irresponsibly. Courts don't care very much. Maybe the other parent ranted and raged at your son. Courts probably don't care much about that either.

Our conclusion has been: (1) Courts deal with the parents as they are and give little effort to improving or fixing them. If son is hoping court will enforce good behaviors on the mother, probably won't happen or at least not much. (2) Courts and associated agencies focus instead primarily on the children and how the children are impacted by the parents' actions and inactions. Son will find better success overall by focusing on the children and their needs. Frankly, that means Letting Go his hopes to involve their mother, her parenting comfort zone - and parenting limits - is rather minimal.

This doesn't cast the other parent as evil. It just means she has substantial failings with regard to parenting. So son just needs to step up into the parenting gap.

This doesn't mean she won't ever posture as a Good Mother or seek to look good as Involved Mother. Those are attempts she may try, after all no one wants to look bad. The point is that posturing won't last long. In time, whether sooner or later, she will revert to her prior wandering patterns. Maybe the court will give her a few chances to pose as Mother but she won't stick with it, not unless she is in intensive, meaningful therapy that she applies diligently in her life. Son's goal should be to step in whenever he can to be The Responsible Parent and in time the Court Orders will get better and better for him.

As for the older child, maybe she will continue to let him be The Acting Parent. The girl will soon be in school. Maybe mother will let him handle the school matters - get it in writing! Depending on the other father, they may be able to coordinate more in changing the custody and parenting time, probably as a separate case with the other father assuming the legal strategies.

Looking ahead.

1. Data first
2. See what data says
3. Use data to your benefit and when presenting it to court also provide solutions aimed at improving the child.

Perhaps getting ahead of myself here, but I can see the OP trying to understand how all of this plays out.

FD makes a big point that courts don't "fix" things. Courts "like" to bless solutions that both parties work out and in the absence of that, they will tend to grab onto a reasonable solution that will improve a child's life. Courts are generally loathe to deal with a solution that looks vindictive or that "only" appears to "fix" an adult.

So...(example of something a court would likely not do). You ask the court to force therapy because your son gets yelled at every time they talk. It's an adult matter that isn't presented as affecting a child.

Versus

You ask the court to approve a ruling that both parents attend and cooperate with parenting therapy from the same therapist to address a behavior/issue the child is having. Same therapist for consistency. You ask the court to require the therapist to submit an attendance/compliance report.

Now...if you son attended/cooperated in all the sessions and the ex only went to 1/3 of them...now the court may care, not because they want to fix the adult, but because the adult obviously isn't interested in the best interest of the child.

Perhaps you were smart in your filing to say that mothers access is restricted until therapist says she is compliant. So there are "automatic" consequences, vice having to go back to court to "get" a consequence.

See how this can play out?

For now..document and organize the information.

FF

I'll caution you that the court isn't really going to care about her parenting behaviors from years ago.

They are going to care about what's happening now. However, they will also give some leeway in the initial stages of separation, assuming that there will be a bit of chaos as the parent who moved out figures out the new living arrangements.

Your son should be documenting the following to show who is an involved parent -
*Every time he does not have the children, and who has them (e.g., Son with mom from 9 am Sat - 2 pm Sat.; SD with her dad from X time/date to Y time/date)
*Every doctor appointment, and who takes which child and sets the appointments
*Every school activity or teacher conference, and who attends (e.g., End of year party, I attended)
*Every extracurricular activity, who transports the child, and who attends (e.g., Soccer practice for SD, I took her. Soccer game on X date, I attended and my parents(
*Every social activity the child goes to, who responded to the RSVP, and who took the child (SD attended birthday party on X date at Y place, I took her)
*If there is day care, who picks children up every day
*Whether homework is getting done while SD is with her mom or her dad

Then I would document these things to show whether mom is a consistent parent -
*Every promise that mom made to get the kids (e.g., text from mom at 10:03 am on 5/5 stating that mom would get kids at X time and place)
*Every time mom changes plans
*Every time mom promises the kids something, and whether or not she follows through
*Every time mom talks to the kids on the phone (if she does)
*Any time mom threatens to change plans (my stepdaughter's mother does this all the time; if SD annoys her, she will say she won't come pick SD up after all)
*All times that your son has informed her of activities or events and she hasn't shown up

And I would document
*Any threats that the ex makes to your son (save all texts and emails)
*Any admissions of mental or physical health issues
*Any negative comments that the ex makes about your son, the children, extended family, etc
*the children's reactions when they come back from her place - are they more upset? Angry? Sad? Do they repeat things that mom said about dad (and if so, write down what they said)?

The ex is going to request full custody because that means she will get child support. She likely also believes that she is a perfect parent. It will be very important that he has this documentation of what he has done and what she has and has not done.

Your son needs to consider very carefully what he wants to ask for. 50-50 custody might not be in the best interest of his son. Your son might need to ask for 75-25, or something like that. The lawyer will also hopefully be able to tell him if he has any prayer of getting partial custody of his stepdaughter - and that may need to involve that child's father.

Good morning everyone and once again, I so appreciate all of your responses and time. They have shed much light on what I was wondering about.

The reason the photos were brought up is this, because I feel a need to clarify a few things. This probably does not change any of the information that you have relayed to me, but just trying to give a clear picture of my concerns.

My husband and I watch our grandson every Thursday for our son and have been doing so for over 2 years. This has been a very consistent thing. Our grandson is now almost 3 and when he was around the age of 2, they began letting him play kids games on their tablet. (Sounds crazy, a 2 year old even having the ability to play games on a tablet, but hey that's technology today)! One day as he was playing a game, he said, "Paw Paw, fix it," and handed it to my husband. They were a series of nude shots of his mother done by a professional photographer. Needless to say, Paw Paw was a bit flustered and hurriedly began trying to get them off the screen and back to his game. As it happened, the PBS Icon where he needed to press for his game was right next to the Photos icon and this is how the photos came up.

Both of our mouths were hanging open at this point. I admit, we are conservative people, and I'm 60, husband 65, so we came from an era and families were this was not acceptable. We couldn't figure out why she would be doing this, and for whatever reason, why have it on a device that her son could so obviously access? Then we thought of our granddaughter (not biological but we still feel like she is our GD). She was then 4 and extremely smart with this tablet and many times we would find it in her bed as they apparently let her play games on it before bed (not a great idea in our opinion, buy hey, we aren't the parents)!

The photos were not only nude but contained BDSM photos of her, cutting, and all sorts of what we considered "odd" things, as if the nudity wasn't enough. I realized that this was their tablet and I could not make it disappear but I told my son what happened and asked him if he would please put the tablet up somewhere so our grandson would not even see it, as we did not want him on it when we were there. He did do this.

I don't know if anyone has come across this before, but in knowing her and her parents for 5 years, things keep happening that seem to show that her whole idea of sexuality is very skewed. Her dad and her especially, in that I mean her dad makes leather goods and sells them. He made some sort of mask that covered nose and mouth of a person and people on-line made comments about it being for BDSM type purposes. He also made whips hinting they were for this purpose as well. The really disturbing thing was that he used his daughter (my son's ex) as his model for the mask where she was laying down wearing it and looking wide-eyed and scared as though she were looking up at someone. Using your daughter to model this sort of thing?

One day while getting ready to read some books with our grandson, we were picking ones off the bookshelf and we come across one whose title was "This is Normal." I had never seen it before but noticed it said on the cover for ages 10+. I opened it up and it had every stage of sexuality a young child may go through, including masturbation, menstruation, then later sexual positions, etc... they were all drawings, no actual photos of children, but the drawings left nothing to the imagination. In my opinion, this has no place on a bookshelf for children ages 3 and 5 (at the time they were even younger). I asked my son about and he said he had not seen it and didn't know it was there. I believe this as she would buy things for the kids and she had total and complete control of everything.

While none of this may matter at all in a court of law, it does bother me as a grandparent to wonder what they have been exposed to and may be exposed to in the future if she felt showing them something like that was okay. There has never been any evidence that the children have been involved in any nude type photos that I know of, just her, but how would this affect a child seeing these type of things of their mother? I am not concerned that this may not be considered in court, and I understand why. I am concerned about the inappropriateness of exposing such small children to it and what the end result may be for the two of them.

Any thoughts on any of this behavior. You can say I'm just being old-fashioned - no offense taken! LOL! I'm just so very confused with it all.

For family court and the supporting agencies, there is a difference between inappropriate and actionable.

Quote from: ForeverDad on March 02, 2019, 02:52:45 PM

I called CPS twice in the months before our separation. Both times the ladies weren't concerned about Ex raging at me in my preschooler's presence. But both added, "Call us back if she rages at your son." Clearly the dividing line for my area was whether son was the focus of an attack versus him seeing me attacked by her.

Often it is hard for us to understand why the bar setting the line between inappropriate and actionable is so high. It may take a while to figure how the professionals assess the various incidents.

Another example, a parent is an alcoholic. Maybe the parent doesn't drink excessively when the child is around or goes in another room. The professionals may not find that concerning, depending on all the circumstances. But they will find it concerning - and actionable - if that parent drinks to the point of hitting the legal limits and then drives with the children.

The focus is on the kids and what is best for the kids, as the others have said the Court doesn't care whether or not you and your spouse don't get along (clearly you don't because your getting a divorce).

During his divorce my Partner was awarded more than 50/50 custody, and education, medical, dental decision making. He started out as an every other weekend + 1 dinner a week dad, he also had to deal with parental alienation and false allegations of abuse. So how did he end up where he did at the end of the divorce. Documentation.

He was able to show that his wife did not get their daughter with a toothache to the dentist for 3 months! He finally found someone open on the weekends and took her. What is not getting your daughter to the dentist for 3 months with a toothache? Neglect.

His wife pulled their older daughter out of school so she could do on-line school at home. Against the wishes of her dad and the advice of their daughter's teacher and Principal. She did nothing for a year, that would be a 0.0 GPA and that would be Neglect.

Their younger daughter also had high absenteeism at school, a stomach ache on Monday meant you stayed home for a week. Neglect.

Mom took daughters to the dermatologist for acne, and came home claiming the girls had rings of darker skin around their necks that means they were both pre-diabetic (which we didn't buy). She was trying to control what the kids ate both at her house and their dad's. They're pre-diabetic OMG! Panic and then buy them bags and bags of Easter Candy. Fake illness weird on it's own, but if it were real giving them that much candy was actually dangerous. Can't have it both ways either you believe the pre-diabetes or you don't.

Then we had mom's 3 evictions. Mom doesn't drive or have a job.

My SO communicated with his ex via email only (another good tool & way to document things) so he had documentation of all the conversations around these issues, him voicing his concern and all the solutions he suggested that she refused. He was able to show that rather than creating problems he was trying to solve them, he was able to demonstrate he could put the needs of his children before his own, he was able to show that he could get them where they needed to go, get them clothes, pay for school supplies, keep a roof over their heads etc.

In the end the court awarded each parent 3 things when it came to the kids (another thing the court likes to do is appear fair) My Partner - Education, Medical, Dental. UBPDmom Psych (I think the court figured the therapist would be on to mom), Vision, and Gynecology related medical. Who got what really mattered? In terms of visitation my partner received M-F and 1 weekend a month and their mother received 3 weekends a month.

Just thought I'd throw out a sample of what this could look like and why my partner was successful. Also note that not everyone ends up with as much as my partner did following his divorce, some times it can take more than on trip to court but the key for the kids is to not give up when there is a set back. In our case mom was her own worst enemy she simply couldn't get it together long enough to make any gains in terms of custody.

Panda39

Thank you Panda!

Your descriptions of various events, (medical and otherwise) are really meaningful to me as I have seen times when my son's uBPD daughter (not his biologically), should have been seen by a doctor and was not. Her biological father and my son both noticed something strange with one of her eyes - kind of like a wandering eye - and you could only notice it occasionally. They both brought it up. No eye doctor visit by mom. They had a free screening at her preschool for vision and hearing and when my son took her to school, (they asked if he had the signed permission note for the screening), he knew nothing about it. He asked if he could fill it out so she could have the screening and they said yes, but needed mom's permission for signature. They called her at work and she gave permission and told my son she didn't fill it out because she thought it cost money - it had it in bold on the letter FREE. He filled out the form and she was able to get the screening.

She is 5 years old and before she begins kindergarten it is mandatory that she have a full dental exam (has not even been to the dentist yet), as well as vision and hearing screenings and a complete physical exam. When I saw the paper there on the table and read it, I thought Thank God, she will finally be getting some badly needed checkups!

Neglect runs rampant with this uBPD mom and I can certainly see the importance of documentation. We started helping my son document things since the separation, but what all I'm telling you above was prior to the split-up, so never came to mind to document any of it.

Last night she wrote up a "schedule" for her and my son and sent it via text. It goes like this:

Monday/Tuesday - Mom has kids (evenings/overnights)
Wednesday/Thursday - My son has our grandson on Wednesdays
Thursdays he agreed to take her daughter as well overnight as she works at a bar and does not get off until 2:00 a.m.
Fridays: They alternate Fridays

Saturdays - Mom has kids

Sundays - My son has both his son as well as her daughter in order for her to work at the bar again. She doesn't get home until 2:00 am. both Thursdays and Sundays so, my son will be getting her daughter ready for school, breakfast, etc., and taking her to school.

Last night (Monday) was the first night she kept both kids. He got a text this morning asking if she could Face Time with him because his son was asking for him and was getting upset. So they Face Timed. She said her daughter did alright last night but she had trouble with our grandson; not sleeping well, she put him in bed with her for awhile, returned him to his bed, kept asking for my son.

Now she would like to know if he could start keeping both kids on Tuesdays (see above, her day that she made up on schedule) until she finds daycare for her daughter.

Is it just me, or what in the world does getting daycare for her daughter have to do with her keeping the kids on Tuesday night? I doubt she is busy looking for day care places in the evening?

Wow, one night - already a change in the "schedule," and one that doesn't make sense at that!

By the way, my son said sure! I am very glad he said that about taking his son, which will only be in his favor. However, she is taking full fledge advantage of him with her daughter in the picture as well. I think he has been afraid of "making her mad" which I'm sure many on the board can relate to the rage, etc., and if you make her mad, there is always a price to pay for not giving her what she wants. I think he still lives with this fear and doesn't want to say no, just my son, not the little girl because he is afraid of retaliation.

What a situation to be in! I feel so bad for him, but I see his point, because she is truly that way. I was a victim of it myself!

Don't beat yourself up it takes time to learn this stuff. I spent a good year and a half just asking why? Why did she do this or that? Or why didn't she do this or that. She had a history of being diagnosed with BiPolar but in my humble completely not professional opinion BPD is a better fit. We did not come across BPD until I Googled "Chronic Lying".

Then I hit the library and started reading...what is it? Why does she do what she does? etc.

Then even later we made our way here (my partner is a member too).

That reading you are doing is exactly what I did too and it will serve you well around here, having that grounding in BPD. This site is great for support (it feels good to talk to people that "get it"), there are practical tools that can help in various situations, and you can get the perspectives of others. I was able to read the posts of members working on the relationships with their BPD spouses that helped me gain insight into what my Partner may have gone through and led to open conversations about his marriage, I have been able to get the perspective of adult children who have a parent with BPD/BPD Traits which have really helped me be sensitive to the needs of my partner's daughters.

Keep hanging around, reading, and posting you'll catch on.

Panda39

I sure hope I catch on, Panda. It seems throughout the 5-year relationship my son had with her, I was always scratching my head and knitting my eyebrows, saying in my mind, whaat? Things she would just say that didn't make sense. Ways she dealt with her daughter as a baby going forward that were, what I saw as, inappropriate. (Not holding her as a baby to feed her, but laying her on the couch and putting the bottle in her mouth using her other hand to text or surf on her phone. I would think, "this poor baby. She should be looking into her mother's eyes and bonding with her. Who can she see? The ceiling!" I would offer to feed her myself and she jumped at every chance she could when I asked. There was always this lack of interest and feeling of the baby being nothing but a bother to her.

I hope I'm not boring you - just venting about not understanding things: Her baby girl took her first steps at our house. She started out at one end of the room and managed to make it all the way to the other end. My husband, myself, our older son and our younger son (who she was with) all started cheering her on and saying Yeah, GD, way to go and were clapping for her showing our excitement. It was so incredibly cute because she was beaming and she started to imitate us and clap, thus losing her balance and plopping down. I happened to realize I had not heard uBPD's voice in all of this and when I looked over to her she had a blank look on her face, no smile, no nothing and was just looking at us like we were aliens. She never said a word to her daughter, and began watching the TV again.

I actually found myself questioning us! I guess we were a little over the top with our reaction? Maybe it was "too much" of a reaction and we tend to get a little loud. Maybe it shouldn't be a big thing like we made it - but darn it! Baby's first steps ARE a big thing.

I found myself over the years sometimes blaming my own self that maybe I was in the wrong or taking things wrong, or doing something wrong that I couldn't figure out. Even now that they are separated and I know I won't be seeing her hardly at all, I am still questioning WHY about so many of her behaviors. I'm trying to work on getting away from what might have been wrong with me and getting an understanding of what is wrong with her.

In spite of what has happened to my son through all of this, as well as our whole family, I know there is a good possibility that her childhood may not have been so great and that a certain percentage are victims of some sort of abuse. For this, I feel bad and don't want to paint a terrible picture of someone who probably has suffered greatly in her past. I do, however, also believe that having a bad childhood does not give one the license to ruin others' lives as they try to live their own.

I'm just feeling very confused right now. Can anyone shed any light on just the few examples I gave above? Perhaps that will help me put things in perspective a bit better than I have been able to. Sometimes, I even ask, why do you still care?

Thanks Panda for your words of encouragement. Thanks to all of you. I have gotten a lot of replies and I really appreciate each and every one of them.

Tired of scratching my head and feeling bewildered!

I still struggle with my reactions to my SD's uBPDmom. I still want to find out why she does some of the things that she does.

In truth, she has a mental illness. Her reasons don't make sense to me. She literally asked my husband once "Why does your reality always get to be the right one?" And she's SERIOUS.

I am learning to accept that uBPDmom is not capable of seeing how her actions affect her child. She is convinced that she is a wonderful mom who is always doing what is best for her daughter, and she cannot see the harm that she is doing. She cannot see her daughter's perspective at all...because she cannot fathom that her daughter has a different perspective from her own.

You aren't going to find a reason why she did X or Y or Z. You can find more information about how BPD manifests and the types of cognitive and emotional problems that it causes. You can learn more about how to communicate with someone with BPD.

The FOG - fear, obligation, and guilt - is real. They train us to think that we are the crazy ones, or the one in the wrong, and it can be hard to break out of that mindset and stop appeasing them. Your son will probably need a lot of support in this as he breaks free of her.

I've read Understanding the Borderline Mother and Stop Walking on Eggshells (and a few others), and they were helpful.

I waver between feeling a lot of empathy for uBPDmom, because it has to be hell to live in her head, and then feeling a lot of anger towards her for the damage that she does. I don't think that will ever change. I don't think uBPDmom will ever change.

Quote from: Danali60 on May 08, 2019, 11:38:52 AM

I found myself over the years sometimes blaming my own self that maybe I was in the wrong or taking things wrong, or doing something wrong that I couldn't figure out. I'm trying to work on getting away from what might have been wrong with me and getting an understanding of what is wrong with her.

I read a description of how BPD thinking differs from non-BPF thinking. For most of us, there is cause and effect. For someone with BPD, it's the reverse. First effect then cause. Meaning, she feels something (experiences effect), then scans the environment (looking for cause). She has no sense of stable "self," so she cannot conceive of the feelings originating within. Her feelings must be caused by something or someone other than her.

And then, if you suggest she is the cause of her own feelings, she feels you must be blaming her. Experiencing of the effect (e.g. feeling abandoned) is caused by someone (e.g. leaving the room). That's like blaming her for you walking out of the room.

A BPD expert once described it as abandonment of the self. Pw BPD are essentially abandoning themselves, then looking for the source of this abandonment everywhere but within, because there is no within that can be understood in terms of "self" the way we perceive it.

To me, that's why your BPD person might be puzzled by GD walking. Having no real sense of self (a boundary), she likely does not experience GD as separate from her (an extension). So seeing you all clap for GD's first steps (go GD, btw! might be puzzling. She might be thinking, Why is everyone clapping for GD and not me? Or, why are they clapping for me and I feel nothing?

Excerpt

Sometimes, I even ask, why do you still care?

Because it's so bewildering and the lessons so hard won. Knowing that others are struggling with this makes me feel less alone. Also, people who were here during my toughest times walked with me and taught me how to cope and I for one feel those gestures were more profound than any other support I had in my life. Someone was there for me, and I want to do the same for others.

This is the most confounding mental illness. :(

As I always say, thank you again so much for your replies! You guys are awesome and I really appreciate you. It is a great feeling to connect with people who are going through, have gone through in the past and have been in contact with people suffering with BPD - and knowing the suffering and toll it takes on others. It truly makes me feel understood and not alone, which feels wonderful.

I take what each and every one of you says to heart, so I will move forward with your words in mind and practice the things I need to change for myself regarding perspective on these issues.

Thank you all again so much. If I may, I will probably keep needing help and support as events unfold. I'm sure my family and especially my son and grandson have a lot to go through in the future.

I am dealing right now with what I believe is the uBPD emotional blackmailing, while trying to get my son to watch her daughter extra evenings while she searches for daycare for her (which she will not find in the evenings anyway)! But, I see what you are saying that so much of what they say does not make sense. In fact, he called her last night while watching her daughter and his son and did something I wish he didn't do.

Her daughter is 5 so she notices things and is very smart. She told my son in an inquisitive way, that mom's "friend" got tired and spent the night in mommy's bed and she didn't know why he didn't just walk home and go to bed because he just lives next door (which is questionable - they are probably living together). This is the guy who she left my son for. He called her and told her about what she had said and that she should watch what she does as her daughter sees and hears things that can affect her (hated that he was showing his cards to her there), and she just said "yeah." By the way, I hope she was able to find someone for daycare at the bar she was drinking at when he called! She even said that is where she was! Unbelievable! But yes, it is believable because it is nervy, self-serving and quite honestly I feel emotional blackmail to my son. "Get me pissed off and don't take my daughter, and I will retaliate." By Illinois law, since they are unmarried, she can come and take our grandchild until he is able to prove paternity and then litigation would begin, so basically months could go by where he would not see him. The only hope we have is that she is not capable of having the kids, even one of them for that long of a period of time. So he is still living in the fog somewhat, and I get that. It just breaks a mom's heart to watch this go on. The little girl also has had behavioral problems which continue to get worse as time goes on, so she is hard to handle. Ugh!

I hope he documented that she was at the bar when he called, on a night she was supposed to have the kids.

Quote from: Danali60 on May 08, 2019, 06:03:58 PM

By Illinois law, since they are unmarried, she can come and take our grandchild until he is able to prove paternity and then litigation would begin

I didn't realize they were unmarried. Is your son listed on your grandson's birth certificate?

If so, according to this link then paternity has been established.
https://illinois.gov/hfs/ChildSupport/FormsBrochures/Pages/hfs3282.aspx (https://illinois.gov/hfs/ChildSupport/FormsBrochures/Pages/hfs3282.aspx)

If he is not on the birth certificate, then he needs to start the process to prove paternity NOW. It looks like Illinois Healthcare and Family Services can help with the paperwork and scheduling a DNA test.

Does he have plans to consult a lawyer to work on the custody agreement and get child support from her? [Child support could be a great bargaining chip, too - give it up in favor of getting more time with the little girl.]

I am actually beginning to wonder about his involvement with having his ex-uBPD's daughter. Aside from the fact that he has raised her almost single-handedly from the age of 4 months and she is now 5-1/2 years old, we have to consider legal aspects.

It's one thing when the child was living with him and he was in a relationship with her mother and they all lived together, although unmarried, as a family (even though unbeknownest to him there were at least 2-1/2 years of cheating going on), they were still living together in a supposed relationship.

Now, however, mom is no longer in the household, and from a legal standpoint, (not an emotional one), but legal one, she is just like having a neighbor child spending time at his house who is in his care so if anything happens while she is there (example: falls and hits her head and has to go to the ER, or breaks an arm playing and falling outside, or many of the other million things that happen to kids), then is he not the liable party? She spends the night there as well which involves baths for the little girl. Sorry to have to think this way, but I realize fully who I'm dealing with here. What a perfect setup should she get her feathers ruffled about something (the ex-girlfriend) to start slinging accusations at my son for sexual abuse, or God knows what?

At this point I am so confused! It seems to me he should just be concerned about his own biological son right now and saving his money for legal costs. He does not have a copy of his son's birth certificate of course, only she does, but I'm sure he can obtain one. He has not been to actually see an attorney yet (only a couple of phone calls to the legal aid department his company offers. They have sent him forms to fill out ahead of time to make the most of his 30 minute free consultation with the actual attorney representing him and he has not even filled them out yet. I love my son dearly, but all of his life he has been the biggest procrastinator ever, and is still dragging his feet at this point with all of this! I totally agree - he needs legal advice/representation NOW!

He keeps taking not only his own son but her daughter as well: Example: This schedule was made up by ex-BPD just the past Sunday:

Monday/Tuesday Son has his own son

Wed/Thursday Mom has both kids (she has full custody of her
daughter)
Friday They alternate having GS only on that day

Saturday Mom takes both kids

Sunday My son has both kids (as a favor to her because she works at a sleazy bar and doesn't get off until 2:00 a.m.; which we just learned from a neighbor across the street today that for the past year or more he is an early riser and would not see her car at home at 4:00 a.m. and sometimes 5:00 a.m.; obviously her cheating hours.

So basically, she did what the schedule called for on Monday. Tuesday she asked my son to have both kids because she was looking for daycare as posted before (but is sitting in a bar instead). He took them both. Wednesday night he had her because she was switching her Thursday night bar shift in order to attend their son's recital this evening. She was present this evening for the recital as was my son, myself, my husband and my older son. Tomorrow, is his turn for Fridays and he has both of them. Saturday she will have them over night for Mother's Day and then return them sometime on Sunday to go to her bar shift.

He keeps on taking her daughter when he has no obligation whatsoever to do this. He endures the daughter repeating things to him which upset him greatly, such as they came in the house last night and he said "we're home family," meaning him and the two kids. Her daughter spoke up and said, "Well this isn't really our REAL home, Mommy's home is our REAL home." She admitted to him that Mommy told her this.

I feel terrible for feeling this was as I want to be a support to him but I just feeling like washing my hands of it. He is taking her daughter who has behavior problems and is hard to handle, mistreats his son, and he still puts up with it - where in the world is his obligation to this? Oh yeah, for got to add, she won't be able to take them next Saturday (her allotted day from her own made-up schedule), as she has something planned that will involve them going on a party bus for most of the night. So both kids will again be with my son.

Please, please help! Is it time to back off and just give it to my Higher Power and pray my heart out that my grandson end up safe and in the right hands? He obviously is going to do what he wants anyway. After tonight's recital and directly after our grandson's part of the recital, I had to leave and just go to the car and sit there and wait until the rest was over. My stomach could not take the poison that was sitting in front of me. I just couldn't take it anymore. He positioned us directly behind ex and her parents. What in God's name does this child of mine expect of us?

Anything at all from anyone would be appreciated. I feel so confused, sad, angry, defeated, all at once right now. Why way to go?

You don't need to "wash your hands" of you son's situation but you cannot control it. Your son, his girlfriend, their kids are all gonna do what they're gonna do and in their own time.

You push too hard and you risk your relationship with your son. It may take him some time to process all of this and take action particularly because children are involved.

For what it's worth, no your son likely doesn't have legal rights when it comes to his girlfriends daughter but he also has been the only father that little girl knows. Your son's treatment of her speaks volumes about what a caring person he is and his care is benefiting this little girl who has no choice in who her mother is and likely sees him as her father. She is an innocent party who will likely be hurt once real separation starts to take place, leaving her behind will also be hard on your son and grandson.

As his mom you want to protect your son, you want him and your GS away from the girlfriend that is causing your son pain, I hear you, I would want the same thing but if, when, and how this happens is up to your son. Twisting yourself into a pretzel over this is not helping anyone, least of all yourself. Let go of trying to control this and focus on your time spent with them...enjoy them.

Panda39

I advise you to talk to your son - once - about your concerns that his ex could accuse him of molesting his stepdaughter. Then you need to drop that line of conversation completely. He feels a bond and a responsibility to that child, and if you push him to abandon her now, then he may very well pull away from you.

My husband is also a major procrastinator. He doesn't like to deal with the legal aspects surrounding his uBPDxw or their daughter (or really, any aspect of dealing with his ex), so he puts it off for a long time. He KNOWS it will cause a major outburst, and he has to be emotionally ready to deal with it. Your son likely has this, plus it's traumatic to go through a break-up at all.

I help by -
a) doing the research for him on what needs to be done and who needs to be contacted (step by step list with estimated timeframes)
b) print out any documents that need to be filled out, fill out as much as I can myself, and hand them to him to finish and sign. Then I stick them in the mailbox.
c) make a list of phone numbers that he needs to call and who that is/why he needs to contact them.

Then it is in his hands.

You can tell him stories from this site and tell him our advice. You can caution him that if he delays, the consequences might be heavy (and more expensive).

But then it is in his hands.

Don't let all your conversations be about this, either. If he feels too pressured, he may turn away from you for now, or procrastinate even further.

I can't remember if I already recommended these books so apologies if I'm repeating myself.

They are gold for someone in exactly your situation.

Don't Alienate the Kids by William Eddy
Divorce Poison by Richard Warshak
The Power of Validation for Parents

You don't have a lot of control. You do have a lot of influence.

We have to learn how to wield that influence in effective ways.

These books cover the basic principles, especially the first one by Eddy, about how to have effective influence.

Unfortunately, the ship won't turn around easily and definitely not quickly.

Becoming an emotional leader is not intuitive and the skills must be learned and practiced. As a grandparent, you have a powerful role to play because you have some objective distance. Gather information and be ready for your son when he is receptive and in the meantime, model for him how to raise an emotionally resilient child when one parent has BPD.

The skills really do work. And this is a supportive and attentive community for people walking this path.

You aren't alone

Thanks everyone. I've got some anger management to work out I guess. This ex-girlfriend has been a thorn in our side for the last 5 years and crap is still going ... I'm tired, very tired. We have known about the cheating, put up with knowing about it and all the other horrible things and ways about her and have kept out mouth shut for his sake and tried to act like we were having a good time when family events occur.

This was exhausting to do - and now we don't have to anymore. At this point my oldest son and I are just done. We are being emotionally, psychologically and even physically affected by the poison that has seeped into our lives and is still seeping in.

Because we express ourselves loudly and show our anger, I think it may be time for us to bow out gracefully and allow him to do things on his own from this point forward. Perhaps he and his dad can discuss things between the two of them - they have the same personality.

Thanks guys for all of your help. Just feeling really frustrated and exhausted right now.

BPDFamily.com

Relationship Partner with BPD (Straight and LGBT+) => Romantic Relationship | Conflicted About Continuing, Divorcing/Custody, Co-parenting => Topic started by: Danali60 on May 04, 2019, 07:35:50 AM