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Harri, something you said here I've wondered about. It's a disorder that affects their most intimate relationships. I've often wondered if that confuses them into thinking it's us, those they really do get close and intimate with, and not them? Thoughts?

Welcome marriedbpd4 :) you'll find good info here.

Hi jwood!

It depends.  If you are referring to when they accuse us of being angry when they are the ones who are angry for example,  I would attribute that to Projection (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=70931.0), a defense mechanism that all people use however pwBPD use it to an extreme. 

Projection is a defense mechanism, operating unconsciously, in which what is emotionally unacceptable in the self is unconsciously rejected and attributed (projected) to others.  Projection is denying one's own unpleasant traits, behaviors, or feelings by attributing them, often in an accusing way,  to someone else.

Does that explain things better?

I was thinking more in general and not specific to any one bpd trait. I've wondered if they think, "i don't feel like this with everyone else, just you". And they then justify with we must be the problem?

I can see how this could fall into the projection bucket. Just realized it likely is!

intimacy is a tricky thing.

the best and the worst qualities of yourself and your partner are amplified, the closer you get. this is true in all relationships.

ive been in romantic relationships where i was accused of things even my closest friends havent seen, or wouldnt agree with about me, yet i can see now that they had a kernel of truth to them. at the time though, i would dismiss it as something either in their head, or that only came out in our relationship.

intensity, likewise, is a tricky thing. weve all met someone who instantly overshares, wears their heart on their sleeve, tells you all about themselves from the time you meet, and maybe you hit it off, or you feel put off, but its important to know that intimacy is something built slowly over time.

in an intimate romantic relationship, its less about who is at fault, who is the problem, and far more about compatibility, how the two interact, and whether they can resolve conflict.

for example...lets say your partner accuses you of never listening, and you, in turn, feel that you bend over backwards trying to listen, so you dismiss the idea that you never listen. instead, you feel like your partner never listens, or never sees that you try to listen.

and all of this sort of defeats the real point, that neither person feels heard. and the disconnect grows while trust erodes.

this is an all too easy stand off in the relationships we come here to talk about. i would be careful about dismissing your partners concerns as just projection. they may be. they may also be very valid concerns to them, and communication may be broken down.

what do you think?

Jwood, my uBPDh has given me feedback that I believe he’s getting from his T.  He’s told me he feels too much empathy and then sometimes can’t feel anything.

The big red flag?  He told me he only has these problems (meaning all the difficulties we’ve had) in an intimate relationship, he doesn’t have that with friends.  This information came out after he’d been in therapy six months.

However . . . when he’s mad at me and regresses into the childlike state he’ll say things like, “I’ve never been through this with anyone before, I noticed ‘some things’ about you that concerned me, etc.”. Well, I noticed a lot of things with him that are not what you find in a typical relationship.  I’m his fourth wife, this is my only marriage.  Have I attracted this type before?  Absolutely.  It’s probably the caretaker, responsible role in me that draws them in but at some point I say yes to the relationship.  They usually leave and sabotage when things are going well.

It drives me crazy when he says he noticed “some things” about me in the beginning.  It’s always when we’re arguing when he says that and when I ask him what he noticed he gets angry and tells me he’s told me before and he shouldn’t have to tell me again.  Truthfully, he gave me a list of changes he’d like to see early in the relationship and I did not respond well.  It read like a child’s complaint letter on how his parents should change so he didn’t have to grow up.  That list was infuriating and blew me away at the time.  I was like, “Seriously, you jest?”

Hope that helps.  Anyway, it felt good to get that out.

2L2L,

You nailed it! I think my guy has not been in a relationship quite like ours before. He's been in 'stable, unstable' relationships with different circumstances of course. His first wife was/is a severe alcoholic for example, and in his other relationships they were dependent on him in some way, ie, financially. I think this contributed to them not saying anything and then things getting very bad but it continuing. I know I have an affinity to codependency and at the first sign of things becoming different, I've said something right away. I've talked very frankly about only wanting a healthy relationship with him. This all happens of course in the beginning phase of the split.

Your mention of him saying he doesn't have these problems with his friends makes sense and was my point. Unless he's truly in love and vulnerable with someone, that's when it will all come out - I've wondered if it confuses them into thinking it's us (not necessarily projection, maybe, I'm not sure). Why would he expect that from a relationship with a friend? That's not how this works!

Mine too will try to give me a list without much fact behind it, more feeling. It happens in the heat of things typically and feels like he's trying to put it back on me. He hears things as blame and not healthy necessary discussion. I've always said, it's him and I against the problem and not each other. I've been very clear too that I have an affinity to codependency and I'm trying to keep us out of that. It's his typical mo for him to lead there, and so I'm desperately trying to pull us back to healthy. The thing is, we never have a chance to work out what i'd call regular relationship ups and downs because at the slightest sign of anything, he shuts down, runs, stonewalls, etc which escalates things to an entirely different level.

I believe my H made the discovery in therapy, about this only happening in intimate relationships.  This is not an insight he would have come to on his own, I know him that well.

For my situation he pushes the blame on me, there’s something wrong with me (of course I have a huge part, it’s based on attachment theory).  He usually does it when he’s trying to deflect accountability.  He’s just beginning to self reflect on a deeper level.  He admitted a number of his struggles when we met Saturday because we were “safely connected” and I took ownership of what I’ve done to hurt him.  My H has always told me he’s never felt heard, especially in FOO.  I thought I was hearing him but I would get defensive because every sentence of his started with “You do this, you do that.”  Even people without BPD will feel criticized with that approach.  They’ve studied this in the workforce.  “You” causes decenses to go up, on a subconscious level it is perceived as criticism.

The more I use “I” statements as a soft startup the more I see him doing the same and this is only a recent change.

If he’s been in relationships with an alcoholic (your bf) I can tell you from my own experience that Alanon is helping me too.  My T practically begged me to work my Alanon program really hard.  It helps break my codependency and my H struggles with codependency too.  He’s acknowledged that.  Alanon and CODA are supplementary to my work on how to communicate with a BPD.  The programs also teach me to focus on myself, not trying to change the BPD.  My sponsor tells me they don’t listen to our words, they watch our actions.  Late Summer those words came out of his mouth and it floored me.  He said, “I’ve been watching your actions and I see the change in you.”  Okay, so sometimes I go backwards and still try to push him but I’m getting better at minding my own business instead of his.  Progress, not perfection.  I’m a work in progress.

As far as change goes, Alanon states, “Let it begin with me.”

Just my thoughts.  I’m enjoying getting to know you better, Jwood!

Thanks 2L2L,

I believe my H made the discovery in therapy, about this only happening in intimate relationships.  This is not an insight he would have come to on his own, I know him that well. Do you think he's been aware of it before then in other intimate relationships or not so much?

I thought I was hearing him but I would get defensive because every sentence of his started with “You do this, you do that.”  Even people without BPD will feel criticized with that approach.  They’ve studied this in the workforce.  “You” causes defenses to go up, on a subconscious level it is perceived as criticism. I think this is a big one for us too. I'm trying to be more conscious of it. So easy for it to turn into a well you did this, and when you did that, then I did this very circular conversation/argument.

I'll definitely look at Alanon and Coda. They could help me/him. I think he tends to be a bit codependent too. Your comment about watching our actions, not so much our words, makes me feel good. My words I've been consistent on and tried my best to come across as caring but firm in my boundaries. My actions though, are always pretty consistent as far as who I am and how I treat him. Maybe I'm grasping but I hope/think he's remembering all these things :)

I appreciate your thoughts 2L2L. Every conversation has the tendency to cause us to see something differently or something you've potentially missed before.

ty!

ps, can someone provide the dumbed down version of how to use the 'exerpt' function? thanks again.