BPDFamily.com

I am in mediation and negotiations with STBX.  Fortunately there is a lot we agree on already, well, I should say we agree on 50/50 custody, which I was was bracing to be the big battle.  That said, we are getting a lot of back and forth on a parenting plan. 

My hunch (gut) is to keep things about very important and common ideals for the kid care.  The more I think about our agreement proposals, and look forward two, five, and more years down the road, I see what could be a lot of opportunity for legal abuse.  Things like splitting school expenses, mutual agreement of activities, future partners contact with the kids, and other things that at first pass sound like just good happy parenting things to agree on.  But, in a darker light, these points could be the door to more abuse, and far-reaching control into my home.  for example, right of first refusal. When it's my week with the kids, and they have someone watch them while I work, I don't want my wife to chase me down waiving a parent plan saying she should have the kids.  Of course I expect mom and dad will both have lots of chances to cover child care.  And, I'd happily make that happen as I can.  But, to make a rule in a court document, just seems like fodder for legal action in the future when STBX is in a less happy mood, if you know what I'm saying. 

Anyway, as a lot of people here will probably understand, there's a parenting plan that might pass the test of time with nons, but, I think it requires another level of thinking to make a durable, workable, parent plan with someone with BPD traits.

I'm asking to collect ideas about what phrases should and should not be included based on the collective experience. My current philosophy is to think Venn diagram.  What's truly important to child development is in both circles overlapping.  What has to to do with privacy, my parenting style, and most of the everyday choices, I'll keep separate.  STBX has many times inserted things that would require mutual agreements, or outright decision making for her. That seems a little crazy. Especially when she has a pattern of undermining me, badmouthing, projecting, blaming and generally passive-aggressive, waif style BPD.  And, one adult daughter has been estranged from me based on mom's behavior.

I'm looking to crawl out of the marriage and regain some self-respect. 

What are the group suggestions for important things to put in, or leave out, or to truly pitch a fight over keeping in or out?

I know every person, and therefore every relationship is unique, but, there are probably some good guidelines, since disordered people often have a pretty narrow range of bad behaviors in divorce.

Thanks, and best wishes to all.   


Footnote: I'm really proud to be able to say I heard my gut in this.  I have a lot of years of not listening to myself, and people-pleasing, to overcome.  I stayed married for far too long listening to fear instead of gut.

Equal time is a good start.  I wonder though, who would be primary parent for school residency purposes?  I suspect she will want to be primary?  The downside for you would be that if she decides to get a job elsewhere or decides to move away, then 50/50 probably couldn't work unless you move too to follow them.

This was my story...

You are wise to be planning into the future.  Things change.

Our parenting plan has a geographic restriction - the primary parent can't move outside of a certain distance unless the second parent moves first.

We don't have a ROFR.  I wanted one to begin with, but now that I've been divorced 10 years I'm glad we don't have one.  I don't want to have arguments about whether or not I should have called ex before I let the kid go spend the night at a friend's house or spend three days with my mom

I live in an area that is hurricane prone.  One thing people can add to the plan is what to do if there is a hurricane watch or warning - or evacuation - when the exchange should be taking place.  I guess the same could be true of blizzards.

I think david included wording about "any changes to the PP may be made between the parents and must be made via email and confirmed via email by both parents; if not confirmed by both parents, the original PP stands". Something where you get the most locked-down to-your-advantage PP that you can, with some room to make adjustments if needed. But, the adjustments have strict rules around how they work and the "paper trail", so it can't be claimed "he agreed to it... over the phone".

ROFR is often more trouble than the issue you were trying to address.

Get your summer schedule paid out so you know what to expect -- summer camps, vacations with mom, vacations with dad, etc. -- when plans are to be finalized, so no surprises.

Get holiday schedules laid out and alternated, again -- no surprises. Include birthdays and Mother's / Father's Day. If you don't share the same religion, take that into consideration -- we had Christian and Jewish holidays.

GaGrl makes a good point. Overspecify EVERYTHING, and have the "changes OK if both parents agree by email within X time period" clause too. Worst case scenario is you are "stuck" with a very specific PP that protects your time with the kids.

Don't include any words like "reasonable", "frequent", "often", "whenever", etc. Spell everything out down to the minute if you have to.

DH's first PP was one line: "DH can be with the kids whenever he's not at work". This was fine when Mom was dating DH's best friend -- DH would go home and take care of the kids, do baths, put them to bed, etc. Of course, when she realized she wanted "best friend" to be "replacement dad" -- everything changed. Protect yourself.

As I work on this parenting plan, I realize how tricky this can be.  Too specific or too broad for interpretation, and it will come around and bite me.

Small example, I want to keep contact, especially after dealing with parental alienation.  I can define reasonable contact during the off-week as a phone call at a certain time each day, or, add nothing, and deal with mom not making the effort to connect the kids when I call - as has happened in the past.  It could play both ways for the kids too.  If they know I'll call at a certain time, they have that assurance.
Or, they have to be aware of the parenting plan stipulations, and either enforce them or not.

And then, I look at myself, and listen to myself, and wonder if I'm the controlling disordered abuser after all.  All these years have taken a toll.

Phone calls are especially tricky -- too specific, and they begin to interfere with extra-curricular activity scheduling. Too loose, and you risk that the phone call doesn't happen.

When my kids are with their (non-pd) dad, I don't usually call them unless they are there more than 7 days.  He doesn't usually call them when they are with me.  The children know they can call the other parent whenever they want, and they do sometimes.  In the early days, I missed them a lot, but now that we've been divorced for a decade, it's okay. 

H's uBPDex would like to talk to SD12 every single day.  We put a stop to that.  Then we tried twice/week at a specific time.  This got really hard to schedule around extracurriculars - not just for SD12, but for my 2 biokids. 

We decided it was best not to include phone calls in the parenting plan, primarily because we were concerned that uBPDex would abuse it.  Now on her bad weeks we can tell her "no phone calls, we're busy" and we can protect SD from her.

I would recommend that you put some language into the parenting plan about not disparaging the other parent to the parent, to the children, or to any professionals the children are involved with.  Your jurisdiction likely has standard language for that.

With, perhaps, a specific "consequence" for disparagement: like, her meeting individually with a counselor, or something else. Come up with what you would want to have happen if she badmouths you to the kids... besides you saying "please stop" and her not stopping because there's no leverage.

Fair point. Daily calls are probably not necessary. Maybe every 3rd day? Or whatever would work.

There's probably a way to say "father has option of phone call on odd #'d days, if child can't/won't call, then father has a make up call the next day." Could also have line of "call time will be 7:30pm unless another time is agreed to by both parents via text or email at least 4 hours in advance". Also "phone call includes skype/zoom by definition, but not text/email". Just a bunch of food for thought...

It seems arranging phone calls shouldn't be a difficult question, but, I guess it's a symptom of why I'm getting divorced anyway.  Adding a history of parental alienation, it's a hot-button.  Our Plan right now has the phrase that reasonable calls at reasonable times - but I agree with the above that any use of the word "reasonable" should be spelled out or eliminated. 

My inclination is that if I can get 7 days on, and 7 days off, I can call when I can call, and the kids will know they can call me whenever they want.  Maybe I leave that where it is, and not write anything about it.

The more I think about ROFR, the more uncomfortable I am with it.  Coincidentally, as though she knows, my STBX is becoming much more entrenched that it must be included - and to include days when I work - so her ROFR would trump whatever other day care I would have, or even if I have the kids on their own at home - which they can handle.  Basically, I think she is seeing this as her having days with the kids nearly every day.  Which if we were functional, wouldn't be so bad, but, it totally undercuts all my parenting, and my autonomy (dare I say my manhood too?). Not to mention I've noticed the kids seem to be more balanced when my wife and I are apart.

My PP includes 2 phone calls per day.  ExH doesn't call the children.  I do usually 1x/day, although now not always (they were very young when we were divorced, exH is unpredictable).  Leaving it open (vs. 7:30-8:00 pm) enables you to call around the children's schedule.  In my case, the exH doesn't follow the PP, I've documented it and brought it to mediation.  He still violates it, I don't have the patience to take it to court right now.  One thing we added at mediation once was that if I don't get in touch by a certain time of the evening on the day I work a second job, then he would make sure D is available at a certain time (guess what?  He violates that, too.).

I would be careful with ROFR if your stbex is passive aggressive.  When I was going through my divorce, exH would tell me he would watch the children while I worked, then at the last minute he would cancel.  I had to scramble for child care - my kids were too young to leave home alone. I would have liked ROFR for me since I was a stay at home mother and my children were young, but overall I think it's been better not to have it.

Have you thought about child care expenses?  I have family who I could lean on and at mediation was advised that we each pay our own.  That has been good although even with that he violates it and uses my time that I pay for at our kids' after school care. 

I'm not happy with the Christmas break schedule. My attorney told me, yes, but, parents usually work together and accommodate each other on this.  Of course that's not how it's been but whatever.

I learned along the way - do NOT give up anything without making sure you get something in return.  This is not my nature and my attorney advised me to do this after I agreed to changes after the PP and then didn't get reciprocal time multiple times.  I.e. I offered to give him some of my time at Thanksgiving the first year because he was whining about how unfair the PP was (he had just agreed to it about 8 weeks prior...).  The following year when I asked, he would not do the same for me.  Things like this happened a few times before I wised-up.

Summer vacation - you might want to clarify the number of days of vacation?  We have "2 weeks" and last year he arranged it around weekends and ended up with almost 21 days. 

I agree you should document everything.

My son was in grade school by the time we got to the final decree.  The custody evaluator, a child psychologist, said young children under 10 years of age did better with more frequent exchanges.  He recommended a 2/2/5/5 schedule.  We settled on mother getting Mon-Tue overnights and father getting Wed-Thu overnights and we alternated the three overnight weekends.

By the time he was 10, I was already seeking legal custody and majority time so I never pushed for alternate weeks.  Besides, when I did ponder that issue which would have reduced the frequency of exchanges, my lawyer argued with me that I didn't want the court to get the impression I was okay with granting my ex longer stretches of time with our child.

Since I believe your children are older, the alternate weeks are okay.

I did have a ROFR but it had to be worded right and didn't apply for long.  What was the key for me was to put it in the order that her time was her time but my time was my time.  Otherwise, every day after school and before I got off work she would have swooped in for a few hours rather than let him socialize, play or do homework at my daycare.

As we just did a new one and the judge adopted ours we are seeing gaps that I wish we didn't miss. IE: on the pick up days of other parent it says after school. Well currently the XBPD is refusing to take her to school (filed contempt) and then on Mondays for some reason we just have on our weekends dropoff by 8 a.m. to school. When the XBPD interpreted that as she will pick up SD at our house at 8. No, she's going to school and we drop her off at 7:30. If there's ever a long weekend for school out Friday-Monday I wish we had it for after school time on Mondays so we could enjoy that with her and if all the other days are after school why didn't we do Monday.

Telephone time, this is a nemisis for us. XBPD would call SD all the time if she could. She cries and says she misses her and gets her completely worked up (SD is 5) that's not healthy for SD. So we just have a loose "Reasonable" and if she saw her two days ago it's not reasonable to call IMO.

vacations we have a no tacking on meaning the child can't go more than 10 days without seeing the other parent.  So it has to encompass her 4 day stretch.  I would recommend that especially from other poster that said they went 21 days. That would not be good for kiddo!

I'd get the passports done if you haven't and put that in your parenting plan, who holds them what years etc. It usually alternates between even and odd years for things in PP's.

On the holidays then have the timing conclude at 6 p.m. on the Sunday, I wish we would have included that parent just takes to school. We eliminated any home transitions and to just do at school, in SD's best interest and ours. 

ROFR back fired on me. My kids would tell their dad, my xh , if they were anywhere but with me, other way around they kept silent. So even if a family member or friend has your kids for a short amount of time that would not be allowed with ROFR. 
Vacation times in summer,  “two non consecutive weeks” But he strategically planned his out with his three four day weekends which then turned into consecutive weeks .
Phone calls, “ reasonable time allowed”, xh kept both kids on the phone hours at a time every day kids were with me.  Including calls in the car on way to school, dinner time,  all evening , 11 pm to start, vacation, etc.   I had to print out phone records to prove this to bring to court. So xh had his times restricted to 3 calls a day per child with time limits for each call. He used every time allowed, even after I picked the kids up from his house, an  hour later he was calling . I had to monitor each call as he ignored the time limit every time .
I hope this doesn’t happen for you or anyone but you know your stbx capabilities . Realize they don’t change for  the “ reasonable “

Sounds like the vacation times need to be super-specific - - "two seven day/one week vacation periods per summer, non-consecutive to each other or to other parenting periods. " I don't know -- how specific can it get without thing your own planning into knots?

I can't believe how clueless courts are sometimes.  Our county allowed 3 weeks of vacation, limited to a max of two weeks at a time.  I usually started and ended my two week vacations on my alternate weekends.  I had valid concerns of last minute sabotage with a failed exchange.  Well, my ex complained to a magistrate in court and so then one order said my actual time on vacations were limited to "14 days" total time with dad.  How dare I use 16 days, I had to give up a weekend.

What frustrated me was that a magistrate didn't just tell my ex, "those alternate weekends are his and the vacation scope is two weeks, what's the beef about a day or two extra before or after a vacation?  After all, you can do the same if you wish." :(

Yes!  That is what our mediator said once, and it is what my attorney told me.  And actually she provided guidance on how I could approach it in a reasonable way.

Our PP stated one week vacation until youngest reached the age of 10, then 2 weeks, not adjacent to other things like holidays.  Well when it was still one week he attached it to Father's Day.  It's difficult not to attach it to a weekend.  I tried to work with him when they changed to 2 week vacations, took my attorney's advice that it will happen sometimes that it attaches to our weekends, and can we limit it to about 17 days?  He refused.  I made sure that year I limited it to 15 days (I think -- it may have been 14 or 16, the actual vacation time out of town was 12 days, and I offered to change some times so he could see my D during her vacation time with me re: her birthday).  Then he turned around with the 21 days thing the next year and told me he never agreed to limiting it to 17 days.  So this year I'm not worrying about if what I choose to do upsets him.  I'm just doing what my kids seem to be up for (a road trip but with the virus that might have to be put on hold).

@ FD - If I may ask, without anything personal, what was the wording you liked in your ROFR?
It seems like one can have either ROFR, with the X watching your moves, _or_ have it be "my time is my time."

I am increasingly uncertain about ROFR. Which should tell me how far from a normal relationship I have.  It seemed like a no-brainer in simplicity, but, then I think about how it could be twisted, and see it as a point she won't let go of.  Plus, I imagine that a main way of enforcing it would end up using the kids as snitches, and that can't be good.

The vacation clause I am using is basically mom gets a first pick on even years, dad odd years.  Vacation can be up to 7 days added to a regular custody week, for not more than 14 consecutive days.  Two such vacation picks a year.  The parent that didn't pick first can then pick two 14 day vacations like the other parent.  To prevent a 14 day vacation from blooming into three weeks due to our 7/7 schedule, the non-picking parent gets the kids for same amount of time compensation after the first parent gets back from a vacation.  Then resuming the normal 7/7.  It makes sense even if I haven't explained it in all the detail.  I did want some limits.  

Figuring out phone calls and other contacts could be tricky too. (but shouldn't be in a normal parenting plan, ugh!)  I think I might end up leaving it out altogether.  The kids are old enough that we can contact each other in various means and times.  Or, using a phrase that a parent can call the child once a day.  My fear is that she will not let me through, or put the effort into making that time available, not so much that she will monopolize my time by trying to make too much contact.  She's fairly non-contacting with the kids when they are home together.  I'm trying to imagine what it will be like divorced.  She will be lonely without the kids, that might motivate her to attempt a lot more calls when I have the kids.  On days she's away, she does try to contact them, and I know what it's like to be away, so I make every effort to get them in touch.  Maybe I'll try either way, and work out a modification if it needs to be done.

Another question.  I'm considering which parent should be the one getting the kids.  In my mind it would seem to be better for the on-coming parent to go get the kids.  But, I read in a parenting book a recommendation that the sending (off-going) parent should deliver the kids.  It's supposed to make the kids life flow better having the custodial parent deliver the kids.  But, I see that as a chance to "run late" or make excuses, and passive aggressively cut into the other parent (my) time.  Even to the point of "gee, if you only gave me a better car, I could get the kids to your house for sure..."  Or, get the kids so frazzled by hurrying them, (or not herding them promptly) the time drop off happens it will upset them for a long time after the exchange.  Whereas, if it's on me to pick up the kids, then I can be where and when I should be to get the kids.  "say bye to mom, and let's go."  I'm not a hardliner on punctuality, but, the kids time, and my time, is important, and quick smooth exchanges will reduce the stress.

Tips?

I like this.  Dad even, mom odd days. reasonable time of day, and what a phone call means.  I'll borrow this whole idea - thanks!

My situation was that I worked a regular 5 day schedule.  My ex used to work a regular schedule too but after child's birth she chose not to work.  She started MLM but of course she was low level on the money chain and earned little.  Meanwhile she had no fixed schedule.  As an entitled Mother she felt that any time I was away at work then she could swoop in and take over.

So my ROFR was 5 hours to block her from demanding my time before school or especially after school.  Not too short nor too long.  When I allowed an overnight with school buddies it was always at my house, I didn't try sending him sometimes to other kids' homes like normal scenarios.

Later on she did find work and so the ROFR was less helpful.  On a later order I simplified it to my time was mine and her time was hers.

As has been commented before, once once aspect is nailed down, another loophole will be devised.  She kept playing with exchanges.  One time was the day before Independence Day and I got out of work a few hours early since the market also closed early for the holiday.  I called to pick him up from summer camp (where she worked) and she said No, wait until the exchange time.  That didn't make sense since the camp was along my travel home.  So I went home and later went to the exchange site.  She never came.  After the 30 minute exchange window ended I called her.  She said to pick him up from the summer camp.  That would have meant I'd be heading back toward workplace, so I said No.  I ended up calling the police about the failed exchange.  The officer arrived, reviewed my order (always carry a copy with you) and called her to come.  Offhand, I don't recall, I may had to go fetch him anyway, but I got what I needed, a report documenting her playing games.

Thank you for explaining.  And I can sense that no matter what I do, or agree too, something adversarial will happen.  I guess it goes back to an early lesson for me, that being: once someone shows you who they are, believe them.  And for me (and you, it sounds like) if there's a way to abuse the situation, we must be prepared.

STBX and I have been exchanging drafts of plans, at this point, we stopped getting closer together, and started becoming either more different, or no change.

I'm still not sure how to try wording my PP.  I am thinking of leaving it out altogether, and see how she responds. I work a regular full M-F, all-day job.  She right now is flexible and/or home-based.  I can hardly imagine a circumstance in which she would ask me about child care in an ROFR situation.  But I sense she expects to be transporting kids, even on my weeks; watching them after school; and swooping in for summer days.  If she does that, it won't be a divorce!  

Further, STBX is being jealous in advance, as far as I can tell.  She's using the parent plan to regulate my future adult relationship status too. It easy to foresee a time when the X will want the kids a whole lot more if I have a partner in the future.

Maybe a phased plan that removes ROFR as the kids get older, when they can be unsupervised.  Actually, I think they can do so now.  Youngest of three left at home is 9.

Thanks again.  
This is so difficult with difficult people!

The parenting plan is enforced by you unless going to court is how you want to deal with non-compliance.

If you had a parenting coordinator involved that's one thing. If you plan to go back to court that's another.

It might be worth thinking through under what conditions you would try to go back to court and enforce it.

If that's not how you are thinking about the parenting plan, then maybe make it more vague, or at least consider whether you're trying to have your cake and eat it too.

You know your ex best and how she'll treat the PP, and it sounds like you suspect she has presumptions about custodial time and caregiving on your time so that's a start. The downside is that what you want for yourself, she is likely to return in kind.

You may want to consider a graduated parallel parenting plan to establish things from the get go. It's apparently common even in lower conflict plans for the sole purpose of minimizing conflict.

Parallel parenting is tough but necessary for a lot of us.

Here's the problem with speakerphone times...sooner or later your child will have an extracurricular commitment that interferes with a scheduled call, and if the ex insists, the child is trying to make the call in the hallway while, for example, the orchestra teacher is trying to get the students warmed up.

Another phrase on precedence of extracurricular commitments?

You can also add language to a parenting plan, "Parties will do xyz as kids adjust to separate households. By day/date, parties will revisit and make adjustments as needed."

That might lessen some of the stress about getting it right immediately.

I recall back in 2009 when the magistrate said, "No time is left for this hearing but I'll fix ex's complaint now {she couldn't reach son during prior weekend, my cell had died but my house phone worked fine}.  Phone calls must occur every 8:00-8:30 pm."  Well, that short circuited many group activities, movies at theaters, games at parks, etc. We lived with that for 4 years until another magistrate decided that was too easy to use as a control weapon.

Update.  We had a virtually failed mediation session.  STBX couldn't overcome some trust issues, so we couldn't progress.  I think we might be back on for tomorrow.  But, as this separation and divorce unfolds, I think I am leaning more and more towards a plan that you would use for parallel parenting. 

My week my problems, her week her problems. 

I can see her interpreting and making a mess of ROFR, as well as the phone call issue.  I might prefer vague language for phone calls now, something like, each parent can make reasonable phone / video contact not more than once a day.  I will call the kids when I can, and at reasonable times.  There's a phrase I picked up that goes "the juice ain't worth the squeeze" meaning, that the stipulations and rules and interpretations involved won't gain more than you lose by fighting it. Not to mention the trouble I'm having figuring it out.

This also leaves you an opening g to revisit the current terms that aren 't working.

It depends on what kind of dysfunction your kids' mom is more likely to tend towards.

For us, it has been tough at times going to Mom's house to pick up the kids. DH might be on time every time, but then "SD12 is in the shower" or "SD12 doesn't want to come over" or whatever. It can put the picker-upper in what feels like a down position -- to be begging to take the kids, but "they don't want to go camping and they can tell you how they feel in the doorway here", or "we forgot the schedule and are out running errands, will be back in half an hour". Been there, done it all.

That being said, the kids' mom has also pulled stuff when she drops them off, too. My "favorite" was a Father's Day (I think?) or maybe just a weekend where it was 20 minutes past drop off and she finally pulls up. They were at a movie and "it went later than they thought". Plus, "they were just having so much fun". Who tries to squeeze in a movie in a theater right before a transition time?

Though, she does WAY fewer dropoffs (and pickups) these days. Most of the transport is on DH. Whatever.

I guess that does end up sounding like both options are bad options. Truth be told, both have pluses and minuses. If you think she'll tend more towards "forgetting", disorder, running late, and being frazzled, but not fighting you on actually being with the kids, then you can lean towards taking the reins on pickups. If you think she might pay lip service to the kids being with you, but would covertly fight it or try to enlist them to "tell you how they really feel", you might want to lean towards her doing drop offs -- so she at least has to get the kids out of her house into a car, which is a good start.

Either way, the more you can arrange to be at school/daycare/lessons/summer camps, the better, generally speaking. Stuff where if Mom withholds the kids from school just so you can't pick them up, that's a huge red flag and you won't be the only one complaining, if that makes sense.

And maybe that's the overall message of this whole thread -- whether you really get into the details with a microscope, or keep it broad, the point is to give you leverage to do what is best for your kids. That can look like a super detailed, all contingencies nailed down, zero loophole plan -- which is where I tend to go, based on my "trees not forest" mindset plus our experiences -- or, a plan that "seems" general, but has a couple of "levers" built in: "as long as both parents agree by email, the PP can be modified", "reassessment of PP due on December 11th 2020; if both parties don't agree on proposed changes, will progress to mediation", etc.

Whether microdetailed or general, the point is that you have actions built into the PP where you aren't stuck pointing at it and waving and telling her "but, but, but, you can't do that, because the PP says not to" and she just comes back with "well I think it says I can, and you're the one not interpreting it correctly, so what are you gonna do about it" and there's nothing you can do.

Build in those levers for yourself. Give yourself a way to address differing interpretations, because they will happen, and she will not recognize your interpretation as valid.

LnL's phrase above was good (Parties will do xyz as kids adjust to separate households. By day/date, parties will revisit and make adjustments as needed.) I think David's was something like "at any time the parents may change/modify the PP as long as both of them agree by email". Hopefully other members will be along in a bit to contribute more "lever" phrases to build in.

Regarding exchanges, I found that picking up my children was easiest.  My exH would "forget" important items - e.g. coats in the winter, instruments, school books, antibiotics, etc.  I spent some time feeling quite angry that every single time he forgot, I had to drive to get it (lasted a few years).  He also told me he didn't forget an item - the child forgot it.  Yep, the 7 year old forgot to pack her antibiotics. 

So I pick up my children and can ask, do you have X, Y, and/or Z?  They still sometimes forget things, but it really doesn't happen as much.

ExH sometimes now will drive if the children forget something.

Update; we are meeting with a mediator - her pick, but, I'm happy to have STBX want something that is not litigation.  I know STBX is afraid of court, but, once she gets a taste of the power and control she can exert, it might be terrible to behold.

That said, this mediator is taking very much the approach of writing as little as possible if it would just lead to lawyer bait.  She wants to exclude so many of the phrases that a lawyer would pick up on to take back to court.  I think we're going towards an agreement that should keep things civil.  If STBX hears something like "it's not worth making a rule about ..." then STBX believes it.  If I say it then I'm the devil.  So, we'll keep going with the mediator. She seems even handed and appears to protect dad's rights too - a concern I have.

Don't count on it until it's signed...  if she's like my ex, she can change her mind instantly.  It's all about control, she wants to maintain control.  "I want a good divorce, I don't want to waste the kid's money on lawyers" is all nice until they realize they aren't getting what they feel entitled to.

Watch out for giving too much.  Be fair, but don't get walked over.  It can feel like feeding a beast: the more you give the more it wants so at some point make sure to put your foot down.  Be ready to walk out.


What troubles me the most with these parenting plans is the fact that our ex's have BPD and by nature well their behavior isn't really predictable.  What happens if they get triggered when they have the kids and they cannot lash on us?   Yet that flexibility in a parenting plan would be abused by the ex..  not easy.

And it happened at least once here that when a mediation settlement was presented to the judge, the parents were quizzed, "Do you agree with this signed settlement?"  Sort of speak up now or forever hold your peace.  What you think you had signed, sealed and delivered never makes it to being entered into the record and officially docketed.  So don't count your chicks until it's docketed.  Maybe a small risk but strange things happen in our courts.

This process has been enlightening.  Sort of a high stakes tour through a BPD psychology text.  I'm glad I've read numerous books, and have been following these support forums. 

I have found it to be true that the divorce process goes smoothly as long as STBX thinks she's getting everything she imagines.  Sadly funny, and true.

I would like to proceed with the mediator, mostly to avoid litigation and starting that up.  However, I am keeping an eye open to the likelihood that we'll end up in litigation anyway. 

When we were working with a family counselor making the parenting plan, we covered a lot, but then she has several no-go issues that may end up killing the deal.  Anything that I would get to have as sole/ultimate decision making, not having her get ROFO when I'm working, getting child care she doesn't approve of, and me having a live-in girlfriend at some point (probably not ever going to happen, but it's a principle), are some of the deal killers.  Even swapping years to keep the kids' passports almost tanked it - and we are hardly international travelers. So, I see that anything that she perceives as me having control is an issue.

By nature, I tend to negotiate from the middle, meaning I present what I've considered fair and equitable.  But, I realize I have to start off to my side, even if it seems biased towards me.  Then I should "give to get" as I move to the middle ground.  Skills like this shouldn't be needed in a healthy relationship, or a healthy negotiation. I should keep to my "selfish" interests and bring her to the middle.  But, how?

In  spite of the friction, we are still basing our parenting on 50/50 custody, which was the holy grail as far as I was concerned.  I don't want to lose that by forcing it into litigation and making a bigger mess of it.  Just like I tried to avoid divorce by suffering for years, and now end up in divorce, I may suffer through the time and money of mediation only to end up in litigation. But, I can't say I'm taken by surprise. I'm keeping pace with preparations for court.

What if, as an exercise, try to see what is driving the control issues (I'm sure those are front and center  :() and reframe them. What is she trying to say?


Here's an example of reframing. She is afraid to introduce strangers she hasn't vetted into the kids' lives.

I can see with the live-in GF that there is a reasonable middle ground. For many professionals, waiting a reasonable period of time to cohabitate is better for the kids and the stabilization of the new family structure. What if you offer a reasonable period of time that you won't cohabitate so she gets a small win that also happens to be a win for the kids. You can still date. You can have a GF. You just agree that for x months, this won't be something for the family to deal with while adjusting to the new normal.

Here's another example.  With the ROFR, maybe you agree to have one with a trade built-in. Meaning, if she gets the kids for an extra 4 hours when you can't care for them because of work, then you swap those hours for something else later that week. If she can't or won't swap, then you find someone to care for the kids. Add something about how much time she has to respond, and if you haven't heard within that time frame, you can find someone else. I don't know if this kind of arrangement is even a thing, it's more the habit of mind to think through future/potential stonewall situations so that you can move forward.

If she is at all even remotely able to reason with you, she will budge on some of these issues. If not, the lawyer will likely start to work on her with things like, "This is better than what you'll get from a judge."

Some high-conflict people can't budge an inch and in those cases, it's really hard to avoid court. If your spouse is afraid of court, then you have a little bit of leverage there.

From what you posted in the other thread, the two oldest kids you don't have to worry about: they'll live where they want.  The 15 can pretty much decide, so that leaves you with the 12 and 9 whom soon enough they'll do what they want as well.  I don't think there's a need to put a paragraph about phone calls, babysitters and things like that in the agreement.  The kids will have their own phone soon and can opt to answer or not.  Hint: once they realize they have a choice, they don't answer as much.. 

I hear what you're saying, and it seems reasonable - to a reasonable person.

I give the GF example as one point.  right now it seems like an astronomically small chance of happening, but, I've got at least nine years left of parenting pans, and I can't make a promise that far out.

Our therapist explained the idea of not having the revolving door of SOs.  I totally agree.  If in doubt, I would over-protect my kids in every case. It's not like I'm looking for another relationship soon.  The T gave us a phrase "that no parent will introduce a partner until the relationship has endured for over a year."  That seemed like a good balance.  For STBX that was still a red-flag, no-go, deal killer.  She's also insisting on mutual agreement on child care providers (read as: she picks).   I can ease those concerns I think, but, it's just a sample.  

Fortunately, it seems like the mediator we are working with is even less into making "lawyer bait" phrases (over-controlling, vague, subject to abuse), and emphasizes that after divorce, it's two adults living their own lives. In my mind that makes me think that the wife will bail out of mediation.  After spending a good amount of money too.

Right now it's fluid, I'll see how it goes.

@ Mart555 - I'm seeing that too.  I think I'm leaning towards a much less restrictive parenting plan. 
From a court perspective, STBX is adequate - the kids won't starve, or freeze, and they will get the homework done.  They will get to hear lots of blame and badmouthing of me, but, even the strictest parenting plan can't be enforced about that, especially since it's almost subliminal.  She's going to be her, I'm going to be me.