BPDFamily.com

Hi,
I really need some input on this email from my ex. This came about because I contacted my ex, to come pick up the rest of his stuff, while I am away for the holidays. Some of you may have read some of my posts and are more familiar with my story. I will fill you in briefly. He is a hermit BPD. He has never cheated on me and I haven’t been replaced. I have never caught him in a lie. He has had the same job for over 20 years. What he did do was idealization, engulfment and devalue. It would start out, by getting upset over some trivial thing I would do, he would take it as rejection, not speak to me for a week, then confront me and accuse me of doing whatever. After it was over he was willing to discuss it, to admit to his distortion, apologize and we would have a few good months and then it would start again. In the last 6 months before it ended, he would get upset and break up with me and then come back with apologies. At that point I didn’t have to point out his distortions, he could figure it out. Early on he suggested couples counseling and we went but the councilor, had no idea what was going on. I later identified his BPD and he was more than willing to get help. He embraced it. He has been in counseling for almost 6 months, with a BPD specialist and is working a DBT program. I know that he hasn’t been in the program long enough for us to jump back in and he isn’t asking that. He is asking for me to be open to trying again. I don’t know if I want to put myself out there, with the possibility of getting slammed again. I can handle the distortion as long if he can recognize it when it happens and can put on the breaks and address it with in an hour or so. No silent treatment, no devaluing. He is also willing to pay for my therapy to learn strategies and he will do couples counseling.

The advice that I was given was to get input from this group. This is the advice I have gotten so far. That this sounds more like a business letter, then a love letter. I think that it was on purpose, because he knows I won’t fall for that emotional stuff anymore. The door to my heart is only open a crack. Do I dare do this?
YOUR THOUGHTS, PLEASE.

Here is his email

Hi ***** - Thank you for your reply.  I hope you can believe that I really do not want for you to feel any additional pain.  I only want to approach this situation in a healthy manner where we can each be heard.  I understand and have the same feelings of a broken heart, broken dreams and sadness.  It has for sure been a difficult and painful journey for both of us. I however have not yet lost hope and I don't believe that it has been in vain.  I believe that we can have a positive outcome.  As much hurt as there has been along the way, I believe that with the work I'm doing I have gotten to that place that we were both trying so hard to reach.  I know that I can give you the best 'me' that no one has ever gotten to see before.  This is why I feel so strongly in my heart and in my head that it would be such a big mistake for us to quit now.  So I hold on to a thin strand of hope that you would share those same beliefs with me.

For me, it seems like such a fine line between advocating for something that I really believe in versus perpetuating the existence of the fear of abandonment.  I am carefully trying to navigate along it.   

As I said before, I know that I will always be in love with you and I do not want to cause you any additional pain.  If you really are firm in your belief that our relationship is over and that you do not want to make any additional attempts to revive our relationship, then let's make this email our very last communication.  If you respond, then that only will provide me that little piece of hope that there still is a chance.  If I do not hear back from you, I'll accept that as your decision.  I give you my word that I will not reach out or make any additional attempts to communicate with you.  I'll accept that it's over.

Please, please hear what I've requested about the sending a response.  If you send a response, it doesn't matter what you say in the response.  And it won't matter what I tell myself in my head.  My heart will only be able to interpret a response from you as a signal for hope.  I have plenty of happy memories of our times together, so one last email response from you is not needed to reinforce any of those.  

So that this does not remain open-ended and to maybe give it some sort of closure, I'll set the last day of this year as my target date.  If I don't hear anything back from you by that day, then I'll stand by my word and keep that promise to you. Also, so that this piece doesn't remain unresolved, I'll work out a way to get my stuff from your house prior to your return on the 27th.

All my love - ****

First off, I'd say it's not insane to consider it - I don't know your backstory and only glanced at your post-history because I was trying to figure out his approximate age because it basically makes a prognostic difference whether he improves or declines specifically past his young 20s (teens and young 20s ostensibly look the same for BPDs regardless of their future prospects of stability). But it sounds like, so far as pwBPDs go, you've found one who is really taking it seriously, really improving themselves, and never sank to the levels that so many BPDs do...so while my first though seeing just the title of the post is "I bet this is one of those insane people considering returning to insanity"...no, in this particular case I'd say you're not insane to consider the possibility.

(The quick post-review did find "When he is in a fit and starts putting me down, my response was that I didn’t look to him for my self-esteem, which was true. Most of what he said was so ridiculous and untrue, so I couldn’t take it personally." which might as well appear in my autobiography, haha - so many people don't understand my "thick skin" and it's not something you can explain to people who don't have dBPDs in their life. Had a lawyer express disbelief in how little I cared about some false accusations one dBPD had made - pfft, tomorrow she'll claim I'm a space alien sent to plan 9/11 with my team of velociraptors who all rape little helpless hedgehogs. But how do you explain that to people without experience of BPD rage-fits?)

Also, you're probably not like me, but I'm not sure I'd be able to resist responding to that letter with an image of a potato...or a PDF user manual for a 1987 Dustbuster...or the Consumer Reports review of different flavors of frozen pizza. Such wide-sweeping claims of how "any response" will be interpreted would just be a dare to me :)  (Legal Notice To Avoid Liability: I do not suggest people be like me in this way)

PB,
Thanks!
I’m 67 and he is 64. I have more time behind me then in front of me. Th dating pool ie very shallow at this point.

Oh, forgot to say PB, you’re funny!

Gallows humor gets us through remarkable hardships in life, I'm happy to report. Knowing your ages, I'd say it would be even more understandable to consider the possibility.

With the proviso that I really focus on female-BPD moreso than male-BPD so I might be accidentally quoting female statistics that don't apply to males, I don't believe it's likely that he'll "go downhill" at that age - and if he's engaged with professionals and seeking to improve his responses and learn new techniques...those are quite likely to have a lasting effect. Will every single day be rainbow and sunshines, of course not, but it's not for "normal" couples either.

Basically, "he sounds promising, and at that age it's not an obvious case of "too good to be true". He'll never be perfect (none of us will), and he'll always have BPD - it doesn't get 'cured' or go away...but it sounds like he's really avoided most of the major pitfalls that trap people with BPD and is among the more functional examples. Whether you go back or not is ultimately up to you, but he sounds like the kind of success story that many of us on the site really hope our own pwBPDs grow up to become.

Thanks again PB,
Every relationship has conflicts, it's how you deal with them. I expect that he at times will be triggered by something I do or say and I could deal with that as long as after the initial response, he can calm himself and be able to discuss it. I don't want to deal with the emotional withholding and verbal abuse, even if what he is saying I know not to be true. I'm done with that. He once called a very nice dinner that I made, a piddly little meal.I said great, you can do the cooking from now on.
B53

Hello.  People can and do change.  A quick interwebz search of BPD recovery stories provides quite a list of hopeful stories.  What is promising is he is in therapy and that is a major step.  A MAJOR step.  Continuing therapy, should you open the door to relationship recovery, should be part of the deal.  In fact, it's an instant deal breaker should he ever feel he's now "cured" and stops therapy without full consent from you.   

His letter was somewhat black and white and that should be called out.  Why have a formal "you're dead to me" point?  Relationship building and re-building is a process.  Perhaps a short response stating you are open to beginning a relationship re-building process provided he removes his remaining items from the house and he continues therapy.  Be clear it will be a long hard journey for both of you and the destination will be different relationship. 

I love this from CS Lewis:

It's a hard decision.  A scary one I imagine.  I wish you the best.   CoMo

Thanks CoMo,
You don’t know how important your feedback is!
I think the black and white is because he wants to stay away from even the pretense of idealization. He is aware of the BPD cycle. This time he is the one walking on eggshells. He has done everything that has been asked of him. He knows the therapy isn’t for me, he will continue even if I don’t come back. As a child, he was physically abused by his father and has been in a lot of emotional pain, his whole life. He wants to find peace. Even before our break, I noticed some difference. When he walked out on me the last time, I told him I was done. He just wasn’t in therapy long enough to get a hold on his response to me. There would be lot’s of written boundaries and I would insist on him affording me therapy as well as couples counseling.Anything less is a dealbreaker.
Thanks again.
B53

One challenge is how to stop the inevitable sinking into the repeated cycles.  This is an idea I've posted before but (1) I'm not sure of my movie references and (2) it may or may not be practical.  This concept certainly didn't work in my case.  Even 15 years later I still can't reason with my Ex.

Thanks FD,
I agree, there are things that I need to learn to make it successful and that needs to be done with the guidance of a professional. I think I handled myself well, for most of the relationship, but near the end, I felt like I was loosing that ability and was starting to go downhill, which is why I ended, even though he was getting help. Right now I feel like an animal, that had been abused, even though they are now safe, every time someone moves quickly, they flinch. Trust is something that is earned. Baby steps.
B53

Not that I'm parsing your words but ponder what caught my attention.


Success is not up to you alone.  As the saying goes, it takes two to help a relationship work, only one to make it fail.  So it may be that it will fail no matter how much you learn or how hard you try.  Know that you did try and there is no basis to guilt yourself for whatever the outcome.


A few years back I recall a member stating that some teachers would make a sudden movement and watch to see how the child reacted.  Children from a reasonably normal home would barely notice.  The ones who reacted were observed as more likely to be at risk.

Dear B53-

I understand that you’re with your family right now... finally, and I hope you’re able to enjoy this holiday time.  Merry Christmas.

I have a bit of a different take on your partner’s letter, in part because I identified about a year+ ago that I likely have some BPD traits.  I am not diagnosable and have never lashed at any anyone (except when my ex and I parted in February of 2020... I let it ALL OUT - everything that that man had done that I KNEW he had done).  Aside from that, my feelings have been an “inside job”.  I have a very stable work history, friendships, had a LT marriage... but I believe my traits manifest in how I process feelings internally, in my head.   

But because I generally keep my mouth shut, no one knows they become my “enemy” for a half hour.  Until I work out their “unjust behavior” in my head.  And this can be if they make a remark about a politician I see as brutal.  Or a negative comment against one of my valued clients.  Their comment does NOT have to be personal toward me.  At all.  My pain has run deeply and silently for years.  And I finally understand why, which actually feels good to know.

Sorry for the aside.  But hoping this gives a bit of insight into why I may see this differently.  I do not see your partner’s message as business-like.  I see his letter as genuine and an attempt to see whether there IS any chance.  In your earlier posts, I recall reading that he was not supposed to reach out to you (according to his T).  So would he have some fear here to express anything beyond what he has expressed?

What IS missing is how YOU feel.  I understand your fear.  It’s very hard to step back in once you’ve exited and begun to detach.  But do you feel love for him?

I am 63.  I know my days of a loving relationship are likely finished.  It seems the men I am “friends” with or have met in the last several years seem angry... bitter.  I am afraid of that.  So either that or really inflexible.  My ex HAS contacted me (most recently on 12/14/2020); but he is SO ill, SO narcissistic (and BPD), that I will not... and he has never done any work on himself at all.  And sadly, He never will.

So your difference is that your partner IS working on change.  And that my friend, is HUGE.  I hope I’m not confusing you with another member, but did you reference that you had experienced an abusive marriage?  If so, I am truly and deeply sorry.  And if so, it is vital that you properly address the impacts of that experience on you, so that if and when you’re with THIS man, you are with THIS man.  That will be the love you bring.

I wish you the very best.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

B53...Hi B53,

as you know I am new here...so I am just learning of these things more deeply and hurting myself...

Others may disagree with me but my gut reaction to his letter is that it seems to have an undertone of manipulation. Perhaps I am wrong. Giving you time to think and yet giving you an actual end date to decide what you think is right for you...well, I find that a touch manipulative myself. I could be wrong and perhaps others know disagree...but that is my feeling. 

It really is up to you. Over more than a decade, we had broken up multiple times and been headed for divorce and then turned it around. Mine claimed "all better" after doing his own work; however, his approach to reconciliation was manipulative and unrealistic. I consulted multiple professionals and wise friends, and no one recommended that approach. Both professionals said maybe living apart and working on the issues with someone who knew what they were doing and then deciding if trust was rebuilt.

However, they do often get better when the triggering person is not in their lives, but then being together blows it up again.

In my case, my attorney said that divorce brings out the worst in people, but some people struggle at first and then come through it fine. If there is mental illness, divorce will make it worse. My ex's behavior got worse and worse during the divorce. His poor attorney wanted to quit over and over, and stayed in it as a favor to mine. So that was my answer. No real change.  

Thanks everyone for responding, I really appreciate it, more than you know.

FD,
The therapy would be for me, to sort through how much this relationship has impacted me emotionally and if returning would be a healthy choice. I also want to know the correct way to respond when it looks like things may be heading in the wrong direction. Which is a skill that will benefit me, no matter what the outcome is. I want a couple’s councilor to help draw up a contract so to speak, as to realistic and appropriate boundaries. Maybe even try roll playing. I was in the process of getting a councilor, that he agreed to pay for, but we broke up before that happened. He said he would give permission for his and my future councilor to talk, so they would know the best way to help.

Cash,
It would be hard for someone to tell if the letter is manipulative because you don’t know the tone or the person. Of course his goal is for me to give him another chance, so of course, that could be considered a form a manipulation. I would consider a more emotional letter as manipulative, like he was tugging at my heartstrings, so I’m glad he wrote it the way he did. He said in a past email, that he brought this on himself, therefor he had not right to be upset with me for choosing to move on.

Gemsforeyes,
 Yes, I was in a verbally abusive marriage, which ended 20 years ago. I did counseling and CODA for five years. When I met him, my head was in a good place. I was happy with my life and who I was as a person. The first time he got upset with me and started projecting his feelings onto me, I told him that I would hope that the person that I am with, would think better of me then that. I knew from the beginning that this was about him, not me. The reason I stayed so long was, because he was always willing to do what ever it would take to get better. He bought an hour glass and said that the next time something happened we could turn it over and when it ran out, then we would come back together and talk. He found a couple’s councilor and paid for it. At the time we didn’t know that he had BPD, so logical solutions were never going to work.

I’m feeling really mixed. We have a lot in common. We both like outdoor activities, hiking, biking, camping, which was not mirroring because he did this before me. We shared chores and both love music and in-between episodes, there was never bickering or put downs. I like to dance and he signed us up for ballroom dancing and tried to learn the two step. He would help people stranded on the side of the road. Last Christmas, after spending time with his family, he took a five-hour train ride to my daughters, so I wouldn’t have to drive back alone. He gave his diabetic brother a kidney. The person that does all those things, and more I love! But when the BPD comes out, it’s draining. I added up all the bad times and compared it to the good times and it came out to 14% bad times to 86% good times. Though the intensity of the bad times, probably would make it more like 20/80 or 25/75.

I can look back on past relationships and own my contribution to their demise. The biggest mistake girls make; is they think they can change a guy. We learn the hard way, that you can change people, they have to want to change. I have been irrational with my expectations, used emotional with holding, been passive aggressive and may more behaviors that will take a relationship down. I realized, that guys were telling me the same things about myself, that I didn’t want to admit to, but the common denominator was me. So I read a lot of books, cleaned up my act, grew up and started contributing to relationships, instead of contaminating them. I worked really hard, I’m proud of the person I am now and what I have to offer to make a relationship work. Unfortunately, with a BPD partner, I didn’t know what I was up against.

 ““Vulnerability is not weakness, and the uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure we face every day are not optional. Our only choice is a question of engagement. Our willingness to own and engage with our vulnerability determines the depth of our courage and the clarity of our purpose; the level to which we protect ourselves from being vulnerable is a measure of our fear and disconnection"
Brené Brown

What I do know, is that I don’t want to spend the time that I have left alone.
So my options are-
I can walk away and hope to find someone who treats me better?   
                                         OR
 I give him a chance and hope that he has put the work in and he will treat me better?
Either way, I could be opening my self up for heartache or happiness. Both are a gamble.
Will I be ok never knowing the outcome of not giving it a try?  If I do go back, I think if it is going to fail, it won’t take long for it to happen.

MT29,
yes they do get better when their trigger is not around and it is possible that there is a pattern that we will not be able to break. But if he has not gotten a grasp on being triggered, then he will take that with him to his next relationship. what I do know is that if you change how you respond to someone, then they will have to change also, because the dynamics are different and the old behavior no longer works. Now that doesn't necessarily mean the change is going to be for the better or worse, just different.

Thanks again everyone!
B53

Hi Gemsforeyes,

 I was just wondering if maybe what you think are signs of BPD are actually signs of HSP, Highly sensitive personality. There are some similar behaviors, like getting your feelings hurt easily. Out of 21 questions, I I fit 16.
Just a thought.

B53

Hey B53-

Thank you for bringing up the HSP topic.  So... a great big YES.  WOW... I found several tests and took them.  Egads.

However... I do engage in a bit of  B &W thinking on occasion (though I change my mind).  The thing that does set me apart is my disassociation.  I do this, have done this for years and I completely understand the “why’s” of it.  I just didn’t understand it or know it had a name until about 1.5 years ago.

It mostly has to do with intimacy.  And strangely, the first and ONLY person I ever explained anything about it to was my exBPD/NPD partner.  I’d say, “I need you to keep me here”.  And he would constantly say my name... stare into my eyes.

My GOD... I’ve never spoken a word of this... I cannot.

Gems,
When I first read about BPD, I identified with several of the criteria listed, then there was an article about HSP and they compared the two. I also do Black and white thinking, I have tendency to us the words always and never. Since I became aware of it I have tried to stop and even ask my SO to tell me when I do it. It’s not the same as a BPD would. It’s more like I would say something like, I always have to do all the laundry and nobody else ever helps. It’s usually not true, it’s just that I do it more. I don’t see people’s character in Black and white. I disassociate also, but not the same. I just do inside my head, once again not directed at anyone. In the Mayer Briggs personality test, I was a INFJ and having an inner world is part of that type of personality. It’s fun to take. After I wrote you about HSP, I saw it as one of test on the site.The Myer Briggs is on here too, but I don’t think they call it that. For me the major difference is that I don’t Idealize or devaluing.  I never lay into people, I more likely internalize hurt feelings.
I feel sad that you don’t believe that you ever will be in another relationship. I will always hold out either with my BPD partner or someone else. I have had several really good relationships and even though they didn’t last, they made me the person that I am.  I have been really hurting the last few months, but I have no doubt I will get over it. It’s easy to read posts and say to others that they deserve better, why is it so hard to tell ourselves that?
I think I might give my relationship another try, but if he crosses my boundaries, then he will be so gone. Yes, I may be sad for awhile, but just grieving a relationship takes awhile. I can’t believe that I am where I am now as to where I was two months ago. We just have to keep telling ourselves that we are worth it. You are worth it! I’ll get down off my soap box now.
B53

It's an ultimatum.

Do this or else.

He attempts to manage his internal state by controlling what is external. This only works if the other person acts perfect 100 percent of the time, and because that's not possible, he is more or less chronically fighting to regain a one-up position.

Because it's an ultimatum, he sets the rules of engagement.

Using the emotional roller coaster metaphor, he is learning to slow the ride down and is willing to talk about getting off and getting grounded. He remembers what the ground feels like and knows that the ride has hurt you. He is also saying with his ultimatum: do this or else.

He's unskilled. His letter is a mixture of what he's learning and who he still is.

As far as responding, it's ok to ask for more time. He seems to feel fearful that more time will put him at a disadvantage. Maybe validating his fears while slowing things down will give you both an opportunity to catch your breath.


Learning to change a lifetime of behavior will be hard for him. Boundaries are hard for people without BPD and they are almost other-worldly for someone with BPD.

He will most certainly cross a boundary.

Sometimes the way we manage these relationships is to focus on tiny little changes. "Am I seeing an improvement in ______ behavior, for example. He used to give me the silent treatment for a week, now we've learned that he needs to excuse himself for ___ hours to return to baseline. He no longer verbally demeans me when it's over and I use that time of quiet to focus on my own wellbeing."

Boundaries are things you have control over, which is yourself. They are the things you will do to keep yourself safe from _________.

Boundary: "I will not tolerate verbal abuse. When someone yells at me, I will walk away/leave the room/put on headphones/stay in a hotel/go for a walk."

Rule: "Do not call me names."

Ultimatum: "If you swear at me I will leave and you will never hear from me again."

The second and third tend to set things up to fail because we don't have control over the outcomes like we do with the first.

The specific relationship and communication skills we learn here really do work. They aren't easy and they aren't guaranteed but they do improve the chances that we'll get different and hopefully better outcomes.

Thanks livednlearned,

Yes, I thought of it as an ultimatum too. But I also feel like he needs to know if there is ever going to be a possibility or needs to give up hope. He has always held out for hope and if it is not going to happen he needs closure and so do I.

I think when triggered he is fighting for a one-up position, but I don't think he has ever felt like he has had one. When he would walk away from me, I never chased after him and after the episode ended, I made him explain the accuracy of his accusations and what facts he had to support them. Which of course he could not.

I'm a preschool teacher and I am use to dealing with childish temper-tantrums, which has made me a little more experienced to dealing with him. I think that when he was diagnose with BPD, it changed the dynamics for me and I became more empathic and it was harder for me to stand my ground. It was easy when I just thought he was an AH.

I am going to give him the chance, but I am not going to send it until 11:45. It is my rebellion to his ultimatum, even though I do realize it is passive aggressive, which isn't really acceptable either. Ultimatum/passive aggressive, I'm trying to level the playing field. Is that unkind of me?

I have a written message ready to go. I wrote that I don’t expect a conflict free relationship. It would be unreasonable to believe that hurtful things won’t be said, by both parties, but how they are resolved is what will make or break this relationship. I also said that I want to go to a couple’s counselor to help us decide what are reasonable expectations and boundaries. 

The truth is, that I am not going down that rabbit hole again and if we are unable to at least head in a more positive direction, I'm not wasting my time. I know it is not all up to him and that I have a lot to learn on my side, but I need this to be a recovery based relationship, not one where BPD is driving the bus.

I appreciate your feed back and thankful that you don't think I'm a total fool to be trying this.

B53

I just sent it. I thought that I was holding back to level the playing field. The truth is I'm scared. I want to start the new year with a new beginning, not a continuation of the last. I so hope I did the right thing. No matter what, I know that I am strong enough to handle what is a head.

Happy New Year everyone. Thanks for helping get through a very difficult time!

Hey B53

I would encourage you to consider your part of the relationship.


How did this affect the relationship?





I'm curious what your response would look like if "for the sake of discussion", you didn't focus on the angle of the playing field, instead focusing on validation.

 Article about validation (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=191788.0;all)

Best,

FF

FF,
Good questions. The fact that he was able to discuss and see his irrational behavior is what made me stay as long as Idid and he seeked helped. I believe he was sincere at those moments and before his diagnosis, he would become tearful and say I don't know why I act that way. He said that when he walked out, there was always a voice in his head that told him that this wasn't what he wanted to do, but he couldn't stop once he started. He would gaslight when in the throws of it, but after the fact he would shamefully own his behavior. I work with all women and most are married. I would say out of 17 couples, only about 5 are happy and healthy, one person is dealing with a bipolar husband. Their communication skills are far less intimate, open and and acknowledging, then ours. I believe that if he learns to regulate his emotions (DBT) we could have a chance.

I was struggling with conflicting emotions when I wrote that and didn't share all that I wrote. He has admitted that he has caused me great pain. He has said that he would never put up with what he did to me. He said that he knows that he doesn't deserve another chance. In my response I told him that I realized that his disorder was the reason that he acted that way in the past, but from here forward, he is aware that what he does causes me pain and now it will be a choice that he has made. No amount of sorries will make it alright. I told him that if he is unable to recognize when I am hurt and in emotional pain and is unable to respond with empathy and tend to my feelings instead of dexifying , then we need not bother to move forward. Once again this is not the total of the actual letter.

His response exact response was his and no more.
Thank you. You're right, everything you said ( then prayer emoji).

We still have not talked and have only exchanged a few back and forth emails. He sent me a link for a course for family members to take, to help them deal with their BPD family member. I told him that "I am not putting anymore time into this until I know there is a future there for me. This relationship is about us and it's time that my side of us is being cared about and supported, not for me to learn more about how to care and respond to you."

The last contact was about finding a therapist for me.

I think that was asking for validation, but I may be wrong. If so, what do you think I should let him know?
B53
 

Hey B53-

It’s really late.  Such a hard hard day... I probably shouldn’t be writing right now, but I don’t want to forget.

It seems your last two responses to your exBF are missing something... you.  Sort of any part of you.

I think what FF May have been referring to as “Validation” was some sort of validation of your ex.  What your BF is saying, proposing, trying to improve.  At least that’s my take.  And validation is EXTREMELY vital for pwBPD.

Something that’s important to recognize and embrace is that your partner did seem genuinely apologetic for his behaviors pretty close to the time when they happened.  He explained that he did NOT understand why they happened.  And since his diagnosis, at least from what you’ve explained, he’s been dedicated to his therapy.  

I’m wondering if you’re being unrealistic.  And a bit unreasonable.  Holding this guy to a standard of thinking that after a lifetime (nearly 60 years ?) of his handling (or NOT handling) his emotions in a certain way... to think that he’s going to be able to completely avoid repeating ANY and ALL of those behaviors.  He’s not.

Although he’s been doing therapy and working hard, he has not been doing this directly in relation to YOU.

If you truly love this man, why would you be adamant to NOT wish to learn how to engage more effectively with a partner with BPD through an available family program?

I say all of the above somewhat wistfully... if only mine had... 

Please give this some thought.  Maybe you are done... it feels to me that with ongoing ultimatums, this may be DOA.

B53, I don’t intend to be harsh, but Are you truly a willing participant?  Neither of you can “promise” a future until both of you try.  And ANY skills you may learn in the proposed therapy will not be wasted lessons.

Warmly,
Gems

Hey B53,

I want to give you a couple observations about myself ( or me observing my old self).  Sometimes "seeing" things in others makes it easier to take a peek at yourself.

...and also (for clarity), I'm not making a judgment about you...I'm offering up an observation for you to try on for size...let me know if it fits.



The "old" me would have corrected Gems and said "No..that's not what I meant, what I meant was"...    When in truth she has a large part of it right, maybe she expresses it differently or puts emphasis in a different way that I meant.

So...instead of "no...xyz", I've learned through therapy (one of many lessons) that "and also" is such a much better, inclusive way of discussing than "no..." or "yes but"

It's sort of a way of validating and appreciating Gems taking the time to "hear" me and spend time pondering my words. 

Here is the thing, I'm fully confident that if I had a bad day and did "no but", that things with Gems would be  OK, yet I'm also just as confident that "and also" will add a bit  of warmth and appreciation.  And those things add up...

Let's switch gears to another observation.

I'm a "thinker" (ESTJ) and emotions come way down on the list for me, which also leads me to consider the emotions of others "way down on the list".

There was a time when I would have proudly talked about how my pwBPD could verbalize and talk through how "wrong" they were..how destructive...etc etc.  I would be encouraged that they were "getting it" and would change.

Without even giving a moments thought to how it must feel to talk about the crushing horror that you go around inflicting on other people.

Clarity:  There is a time and place for plain speaking.  It's just as important to realize that what is helpful for thinkers can be cutting to the core of an emotional person (like a pwBPD)

Let's switch gears again.

In addition to being a thinker...I'm a "judger" (estj).  So...I would and still do think about "oh...I believe he is sincere".  (I don't think we should learn to turn that off, I do think we should realize the impact of "judging" emotionally sensitive people, or anyone really).

There is an implicit message of "other times he wasn't being sincere".  And it's likely that even if you didn't say "I believe you are being sincere" ( to him), that he picked up on the "vibe" from you anyway.  (oh..I used to protest to my pwBPD..all the time, "but I never said that...") 

And I didn't say it, but it came through in other ways.  Remember...pwBPD are very perceptive and OVERLY focused on the actions/tones/words/facial expressions of others and "what that means".

I should hush for a bit and listen for your response.  Any of this landing for you?


Best,

FF

There are studies out there about the caregiver burden for those who have a BPD loved one. It's understandable to feel fatigue, anger, resentment. It takes a lot of strength to not be emotionally injured in a BPD relationship and the rates of depression and anxiety for partners and family members are amongst the highest.

There are a lot of people on these boards running on seriously empty tanks.

Even so, I don't sense that you feel contempt for your H ... is that accurate to say?


You're patient, loving, and tolerant and you've put in a lot of work, only to be hurt repeatedly. For every lap around the track he walks, you run 10. It's understandable to need a break, and to want him to have some speed and endurance for once.

It reminds me of Spoon Theory, something a woman with Lupus developed to communicate to healthy people what it's like to be chronically ill. For those of us who are healthy, we wake up with 10 spoons and maybe use 3 a day. Sometimes 7. Maybe 10 on a hard day.

Someone who is chronically ill may wake up with 5 and use 3 of them just to get out of bed.

Someone with BPD is going to have fewer spoons.

Someone living with someone with BPD is going to have fewer spoons (but probably more than someone with BPD).

Most of the skills we learn here on this board are based on a) guarding the number of spoons we have so that b) we can support our loved ones.

I mention this because supporting your H might mean communicating to him that you are working on taking care of yourself right now so that the relationship might work.

As opposed to you preparing to leave because of what he did, or unless he does DBT, or if you decide you've had enough.

Does that make sense?

My hope for you is that you focus on your own spoons. The more spoons you have, the less likely you will feel the need to "level the playing field" as you describe it. The less likely you will see his choices through the lens of "do this or else I will ______".

Instead, it will be, "I have enough energy and compassion right now/today/later for ______. Let's table ________ until I have a chance to get myself to a better place."

In my BPD relationship (stepdaughter who was living with us) I found it helped to envision having a cup that was my job to fill and keep filled each day.

The fuller it was, the more emotional strength I had for her (the more spoons).

If I slept well my cup was full the moment I got out of bed and it was my job to keep it filled throughout the day. If I woke up tired, I had to take greater care to protect what was there and work a bit harder to keep it filled. The fuller it was, the better I could engage.

I started to pay attention to how I felt physically and what sapped me. If something sapped me, I made small changes. A lot of those changes were specific to my circumstances and my temperament, but they include all the obvious ones: sleep, exercise, mindfulness, space/distance, learning to say no, etc.

You have the advantage of being in an intimate relationship with an openly acknowledge diagnosis, and the ability to communicate directly. Your H has some self-awareness and a desire to work on himself. What your H may want and need from you is a sign that you're willing to work on your amazing self so that, if he has to, he has room to wobble. It's not fair, and it's part of being an emotional leader with more spoons than he has (for now, at least).

I know this stuff is hard.

I felt tremendous resentment toward my stepdaughter, not to mention genuine grief. I have a BPD brother who was violent in my childhood and an ex husband who would likely qualify for dual dx BPD and substance abuse if he had agreed to get help. Discovering that my current husband had a so-called quiet BPD daughter nearly derailed our marriage. I was done having a BPD boot print on the back of my head.

Surprisingly, taking my focus off of what others did or didn't do, and focusing on what I could do for myself has improved not only those relationships, but all of my relationships.

The DBT stuff can be very useful skills for anyone. If you're curious about the process from someone who had a bad then good experience, the memoir Buddha and the Borderline is an excellent book. A good companion book to that (for developing skills) is Loving Someone with BPD.

Sometimes the way I think about my step daughter is that I made her feel safe by having better boundaries for myself. The boundaries are what create the sides of the cup.

You have a lot of self-awareness and courage to share what you do and why. That bodes really well for this path you're on.  :hug:

Thank you for all the responses.

Believe it or not, I understand what you are saying to me and fully agreed that at the moment I am not seeing things through reasonable eyes. I will try to explain the many, many conflicting thoughts that are running in my head.

If you were to go back and read any of my posts, I don’t think you will find one, where I haven’t spoken about my ex with kindness and empathy and I was aware that it was not about me personally. Even to a point, that what I was saying was probably interpreted as magical thinking and mentioned as codependent. When he was diagnosed, I was on a mission to find everything I could to get, to get an understanding of BPD, from TED talks, YouTube, articles, internet and audio books. Hours and hours of work were all for naught. I am very aware that I will need to have reasonable expectations.  I hope I can explain this in a way that you can at least see where I am coming from.

Yes, he is aware of feelings, but how he interrupts them is my struggle. Here are a few scenarios that will hopefully make my point. Sorry ahead of time for them being so long.

This was the second to the last episode we had. We woke up in the morning and in a harsh tone, he said that I hit him rather hard during the night and that he was now thinking of sleeping in another room. The amount of strength as to how hard I hit him would later change from a hard punch to a soft hit. I am not a morning person and still half asleep, I said that I was sorry, that I didn’t remember doing it and I would understand if he wanted to sleep somewhere else, no one deserves to be attacked while they sleep and then I went to work. That is where it ended for me. He has a habit when sleeping to take the covers and roll them under him. I’m pretty sure what I did was to try to pull the covers out from under him so I had some, as I had done many times before, to stay warm. He knows he does it, I don’t like it, but he does it when he is asleep, so I deal with it and never made it an issue. So from there, he talked to me just enough so that I was not able to say he was giving me the silent treatment. He went to the beach and I met him a few days later, when my family arrived. At the beach he asked to talk and I went with him to a place where we could be alone. I had no idea what I had done to trigger this. Then all the accusations came and he said that unless I said that he was right and I admitted to all the crazy things he was saying, then there was nothing left to talk about. Of course I didn’t. All this was about me hitting him in my sleep and then telling me how mad I was at him and how poorly I was treating him and a bunch of other things that I did, that didn’t make sense and then the character assignation followed. That was the opposite, I was treating him nicely, hoping that whatever was bothering him would pass. I even tried to talk again at a later time. I was still painted black. He gave me the silent treatment for the rest of the weekend and talked to everyone but me. He ruined my weekend with my family. It was horrible for everyone.

I know this is a story that probably isn’t unfamiliar to anyone on this site, in one form or another. When the time of discussion came, my question to him was, you were upset that I hit you, but were you ever concerned, that you continuously pull the covers off me and I get cold. You tell me what I have done to you, but are you aware of what you do to me? He acted like understood my point.

One time his answer to a question was, you were in the bathroom and I thought you weren’t feeling well, so I went upstairs. I asked him that if he thought that I wasn’t feeling well, then why did he go upstairs unconcerned. Most people would ask if I needed help.

The thanksgiving before last, he was suppose to meet me at the beach after he spent time with his family. My daughter had been having panic attacks so badly over the previous months, that I had to take three weeks off of work, drive eight hours to her house to help take care of my grandchildren, so her husband could work and have a needed break.  After I came home from there, she would FaceTime me everyday and she would always end up crying. He was there many times to hear it. Not only was she not well enough to join us for Thanksgiving, I spent several hours that day on FT trying to console her as she cried. This was really hard to see my child go through. I was looking forward to my ex coming, because I really needed a soft place to fall. He walks in the door, recognizing that I was upset, that something was wrong with me and decided I was mad at him. Never asked what was wrong. I think he was already mad,  because I didn't come to his families house with him. I wasn't going to leave my son alone on Thanksgiving. Even his daughter didn't understand why he didn't leave earlier and  they arrived at 11:30pm. I can't prove it and I never brought it up.The next day, I did say that it is hurtful when someone turns their back to you in bed and you don’t know why. Again, he didn’t talk to me all weekend. Never asked about my daughter. His daughter said that she was horrified that he acted that way. That she thought he only did that to her. When he is like that, he is unapproachable and there is no way to get through to him, until he is ready. I guess he was splitting.

The point here is this. When I need emotional support, before he even asks what is wrong, he figures that I am angry and alienates me. However I respond to an email is an interpretation he decides to take when he reads it, no matter how it is written.

After BPD became the focus, I started to realize that our relationship was always about him and it was a subject that I brought up to him, not in an unkind way. My feelings were never acknowledged and if they were, they were misinterpreted and he went into BPD mode. I started asking myself, what was I getting out of this? Then I read that BP’s don’t love, they attach. That was a hard thing to comprehend, because it all seemed so real to me. I wondered if he ever really loved me. When the last conflict happened, which once again require him to have empathy, I decided I wasn’t going to be a martyr, caretaker or codependent and when he walked out again, I felt I had enough.

Of course over time he came back. I discussed with him the many times that he was unable to show me empathy and that trust did not exist, because that is something that is earned. I can’t be in a relationship where my needs are never met. Of course he agreed.

In our recent communications, I told him that empathy and our relationship needs to meet the needs of both of us. He wants me to come back, but I need to know that there is something in it for me. He needs to have done enough work to be able to at least show, that it is something he is capable of doing. I think I can cope with occasional episodes; I was able to hold my own for quite awhile. He makes five times what I make and he can afford the best therapist and anything else that he needs for his recovery. He once offered to pay for therapy for me, but it never came to be. In almost every email I have sent, I said that I needed to talk with someone to help me sort through all my mixed feelings and have someone to support me through this. So when the first thing I get from him, is for me to take a class to learn more about my relationship with him, I have to say I didn’t take it well. I know it wasn’t intentional and his offer was meant to be kind, but it was still none the less about him. Why wasn’t his first offer about therapy which I keep asking for. I told him that when I feel that he can show me that my well being is one of his priorities, then I will take any course he wants. All I have gotten is, sort of an ultimatum letter, that may or may not be more then just another BPD promise that will not be kept. There is a part of me that is pushing to see, if how I respond will trigger him and see if he lashes out or remains kind and sincere, but he will read into it what he wants to anyway. At this moment, I am quite aware that I am not in the mental state that I will need to be in, to be successful. I know that I am not validating him, which I will do when he makes a non-ambiguous approach that indicates his concern for me.

Which he as finally done. He has offered to even pay for out of network counseling, if we can’t find someone that has the experience that I need. That for me is a huge step as he is already paying out of pocket for his and that may possibly put a  strain on his income. I was looking for someone who takes my insurance. I responded kindly.
To be honest, I was thinking of taking the course, without telling him for now, even before it was pointed out as something I should. 

B53

Hmmm

Would a solution be to agree to meet him at the therapists office?  Or perhaps on a joint zoom call?

Essentially the only communication would be about that meeting.

After a few of them, I think you will get a feeling for his level of commitment.

Best,

FF

"I can handle the distortion as long if he can recognize it when it happens and can put on the breaks and address it with in an hour or so. "
Personally, I don't think this is a reasonable goal.  Even if you were with a neurotypical individual, fights will usually last over an hour.  Men also have a tendency to retreat when it comes to conflict (which isn't a bad thing as it allows our anger to subside as opposed to becoming violent).  So, partial silent treatment is also normal (complete ST isn't normal).

If you reengage with him, I think it would be better to set more achievable goals.  Don't let the fight carry over to the next day.  Fight fair (certain behaviors should be avoided no matter how angry you get).

Your last post talked about wanting empathy from him.  To be honest, that is often not a strong point for men, BPD or not.  Men are often less sensitive to what their spouse is feeling.  I suspect for a BPD person dealing with a lot of internal turmoil, it is difficult for them to also take on the turmoil of others.

I suspect that he is not capable of giving you the full empathy that you desire.  Would you be ok if he gave you a little?  It might also help if you explicitly tell him that you could use some support as opposed to expecting/complaining that he can't read what you are feeling.  I suspect that if you asked for support, he gives a little, and you then show appreciation, you may be able to avoid some of his BPD moods.

FF, Fian,
That is a very good idea and is something that I have mentioned. Along with therapy, I asked for a couples counselor.  I think we need a professional to help us decide what are reasonable and unreasonable boundaries and expectations.As I said in my wordy post, I need help with this. Maybe an hour isn’t long enough, that is something to discuss with a professional. I hope that I am not coming across as thinking that I have all the answers, I don’t. I don’t know what I am going back into, something new or more of the same. I’m scared. He says he is doing the work and I believe him, but I don’t actually know. What I am doing right now is gambling and I need to know that I have the best odds that I can before I place my bet. Nothing is guaranteed.

Fian, he may yell and say unkind things, but he is never violent.

Thanks,
B53

Fian,
Your new post came in while I was writing this. I’m not a fool. I don’t expect to get the empathy that I would get from one of my girlfriends. Last year when I started school I had a very difficult class and a new assistant. Even my director had concerns. Teacher’s work does not end when you leave school, especially in the beginning of the school year. I was stressed and overwhelmed. I came home and shared all my feelings and difficulties. He made me dinner a few nights, something that we usually share. I thought he was being sweet  and doing something to help with my stress. After two days he left and I find out a week later, that I no longer care about him because I didn’t come down and help make dinner. He was there every night when my daughter was crying. I would talk to him about it. It is one thing to not realize that your partner is cold when you pull the covers off or  not respond if your not feeling well, but these were not little things and I talked to him about how I was feeling. Love means stepping outside yourself and putting someone else’s needs before your own. I’m not asking for a perfect guy, BP or not, but I do expect him to notice the elephant in the room. If he can’t do that, then what would be my reason to stay. I don’t ask for or require a lot, but I deserve to be loved and cared about. Without that, then I’m am just a caretaker.
 
If you want to see the difference between men and women, go on YouTube and put in “It’s not about the nail.” It’s funny.

B53

LOL that Youtube video is pretty funny!

I'm actually doing this at the moment.  Deliberately waiting until I'm at a better place to address an issue that I think she is being ridiculous about.  There is no doubt in my mind that if I try to talk to her about it now...nothing helpful will come out of my mouth.

First of all...I laughed outloud. 


Why wait for him to notice? 

Best,

FF

What would it look like if you began to take care of yourself separate from what he does or says?

The negotiations are likely to gridlock if only because he is setting up a "I will do x if you do y" and vice versa.

If that gridlock is hard to break and trust isn't there, some creative problem solving might help kick start things, especially with clear actions. "I will agree to attend these classes on one condition. I ask that you deposit x amount in my account for x sessions with a therapist. No need to discuss it. For me, this is an essential piece to moving forward."

And then keep focusing on the action, whether it is done or not.

What classes was he recommending you attend?

If you are looking for a couples counselor, suggest you look at using a Gottman Certified Counselor.  Can be a little more expensive, but I've found one and highly recommend their approach.  The challenge is to find one that can also recognize and support the BPD portion of your relationship.  Be well.  CoMo

Thanks always to everyone!

The course is Family Connections Program NEABPD, I’m sure that it is excellent and it will be very helpful and I do plan to take it, if not now, soon. I just wanted to hear something related to me first.

All I have received from him is;  I agree, Thank you, a link for the course and then about looking for a therapist. That tells me nothing about where his head is. He may have done an amazing job and I will feel, cared for and loved, or the opposite may be true. My guess is, it is somewhere in the middle. I want to have everything set in place and get off to the best start possible, then it is up to us to do the work. I don’t want either of us to start to jump to conclusions, because we misread a comment or a look.  For example, when I email him, he doesn’t respond for hours or a day. I know he is getting them. So what does that mean? Is he trying to give me space and not look like he acting in a sense, like he is love bombing or is he playing a BPD game, I not responding the way he wants, so he will let me wait, or is he having trouble with his computer. I know his job, so it is very unlikely that he is too busy and his responses are at most ten words or less. My past guess would be, he is making me wait, but right now, I am going to believe that he has my best interest at heart. It is easy to jump and run with a thought that may or may not turn out to be true. This is probably the most important behavior we both need to work on. I worry that if I don’t talk with someone I will act like a dog that has been abused and flinch every time someone moves fast (not literally). He has given his therapist permission to talk to whoever I pick. I think that will be extremely helpful.
 
I have mentioned before about a podcast call Borderline to Beautiful
 
The host is a recovering BPD and the podcast is for BPs, but it is amazingly helpful for the people in their life. The two podcasts that I highly recommend is called, why is everything always my fault?  (August 19) It discusses validation. I think it was a aha moment for my ex. The other one is called, The FP or favorite person (June 10th)

FF,
 I’m not sure I understand what, “wait for him to notice?” means. Do you mean tell him? Both the Thanksgiving and school, I was talking to him about it. Sometimes in the moment, words don’t always come and a warm response is desperately needed. It may not sound like it from my postings, but I don’t have emotional breakdowns often, or require attention to be paid to my emotional needs, if I did I would have fallen apart long ago.  What my daughter went through was heartbreaking.

I think I do a fairly good job taking care of myself. When we broke up, I was a mess, so I joined this group. The people here are amazing. Even though I may not agree or take your advice, I do listen. I’ll refer to, “The man in the arena”, the people here have shared my pain and are not on the sidelines and they have first hand knowledge and only want to help me. I can’t thank you all enough. If he called today and said it was over, at this point I don’t think it would be a big setback, but I would feel something and I’m not sure what those feelings would be.

I dated a phycologist once and he said that he admired my resolve. I have been through a lot; He is a lightweight compared to my ex husband. I told my exBP once, that there are not too many games that he could play that would be new to me. I can recognize passive aggressive a mile away. I could lead a perfectly happy life alone and I would rather do that, then be continuously mistreated, but I would rather have someone I could share my life with. I accommodated him some, but I had/have my own life separate from him. COVID did change a lot of things. I think if I could get out and do some of the hobbies I enjoy, I would be in a much better place.

Even though it would be great to have someone deposit money in my account, that would feel like blackmail to me and cold and business like. As much as possible we both need to come from a place of love. I trust that he will pay for my therapy. I trust that he is working on himself. I know he can talk the talk, but I don’t know if he can walk the walk. I can’t trust that my emotional well being is safe. Like I said before, trust is something that is earned. You trust someone when their words consistently match their actions.

Thanks CoMo, I will check it out.

I know I can be long winded and I am always impressed when people make it to the end!

B53

Very general statement.

Waiting for a man to mindread/notice and give you what you need/say what you need is unlikely to be a good plan.

Add in the modifier that there are BPDish tendencies/poor relationship skills and..wow.

I would plan on telling him exactly what you need and maybe over time he will get better at it.

Best,

FF

FF,
I am not expecting him to read my mind.  There was seldom a reason that he would have had, to do that. He was the one who was unhappy with me most of the time, not the other way around. My unhappiness came from being painted black. One time he walked out for a week, I had no idea what I did, later he said that I gave him a look. He would walk into a room make an assessment of what I was doing and not speak to me for a week. I would later find out what he thought I was feeling, that I never felt. It was all in his distorted mind. Even if I had been upset, when was I given the opportunity to let him know. I was judge and then treated very poorly. I am not talking about being upset and expecting someone to know how I am feeling. I talking about showing empathy, after he watches me talk to my daughter who has been struggling for four months and he walks into the room after I get off FT and finds me crying.  You don’t have to read my mind to understand what is wrong. Any person that has children would understand the toll it would take, when your child is suffering and there is nothing you can do to make it better. Am I wrong here? He cared more about how he thinks I’m treating him, then to bother to ask how she is doing. If he thinks I am in the bathroom, not feeling well, wouldn’t the caring thing be, to ask if I was ok, not walk away? Is that expecting too much? He came in on Thanksgiving, hardly said a word to me and gives me the cold shoulder. When was there the opportunity to tell him how I was feeling then? It seems like he thought he could read my mind, only he was always wrong. I have asked him in every email that I sent, that I wanted counseling. I think I WAS telling him in writing how I was feeling. In the past taking him a day to  email me back would have been a BPD move. He just responded to an email I sent yesterday morning. He responded in one word, ok.  I responded to his New Years request and all I have gotten is  four unemotional emails. I gave him what he asked and now what? Am I suppose to read his mind? I have been criticized for not being validating. I have sent several emails that were paragraphs long and said many nice things so that I would be validating, since I was told that is important.  Isn’t the whole purpose of all this, to give him another chance to get back with me? In two emails I expressed how important it was for me to feel that he cares about my feelings? Isn’t that me expressing my feelings? I handed him the olive branch. Don’t you see how easy it would be to see red flags? I am going to do the right thing and start with a clean slate, believe that he cares and things will move along when the time is right. What I am not going to do is step in and take the lead. If he had not approached me, I would have moved on with my life.

I have read about BPD recovery, yes he should be able to recognize a need when it is right in front of his face. The recovery is about mindfulness, being in the present and regulating emotions. Listen to the podcast I listed above, if he is doing the hard work he can do it. If he can't then we are back at square one because this is the major problem, the other problems are subsets of it.

I feel that the BP is the hero here and I’m the bad guy. I feel like I am being seen as as stereotypical woman that expects very man to read her mind. Believe it or not, there are women who have done the hard work and treat men with dignity and respect. We are not all drama queens with an agenda. The fact that I may write something on a website when I am not at my best, trying to learn and heal, does not put me in that category. I really want to do right by him as well as myself.

B53

I know that I have been very conflicted in my responses to the advice I have been giving on this post. I have felt like I have the angel on one shoulder and the devil on the other and they are battling out.  I wasn’t prepared for the option of getting back together and I think I was in the anger part of the grieving process when it happened and I was not prepared to do a 180.

Thank you livednlearned, I have read posts you have written for others and you are insightful and you are able to read the emotions behind the words that are written.

You summed it up well when you said.

“You're patient, loving, and tolerant and you've put in a lot of work, only to be hurt repeatedly. For every lap around the track he walks, you run 10. It's understandable to need a break, and to want him to have some speed and endurance for once.”

The spoon analogy is perfect and good advice. Berne Brown speaks about how to reckon with emotion and change your narrative, "the story I tell myself", Which in the future will help me to communicate.

My ex and I have communicated via email over the last few days. I told him that I enrolled myself in the course, which I did last week. I keep the suggestions that all of you have offered me, in my mind as we have communicated. He sent me an email yesterday that cracked the hard shell that I have incased myself in and it is what I needed to hear to feel hopeful and encouraged.

 He wrote:
 (How is your last letter any different from the promises of the past?) In my mind, the biggest difference is the tools.  I recall that one of the things you often said was that we needed to find someone to show us the tools that we needed to use.  Previously, the tools that I had in my toolbox were totally inadequate.  It was like trying to use a garden hose to put out a forest fire.  I believe that now I have the right tools for the job.  So those are my couple of thoughts which also go along with what I said previously about giving you the time and support that you need.

You’re so right about the stories I made up in my head.  The complexity of what needed to be unraveled up there is staggering.
 

We are working together, on the best way to move forward from here.

Thanks to all,
B53

Yep...I'm familiar with the battle, and even more aware that your head is in the middle of the war.

Very important that you have realized this.  Also just as important that you realize there is not a "one and done" answer for you to solve or end this war.

Over time...I hope we can guide you to more of a spirited discussion and less of a war.  Maybe even one day it will be a "healthy debate".

Important to realize where you are and even more important to be kind to yourself.

Also be kind to yourself for those times when there is frustration that you didn't express yourself the best...or heaven forbid...those times when you question how you could have ever written such a thing.

It's ok...we've got you and we've been there (and likely will be there again someday).

Best,

FF

Big!

Thanks :)

Hi,
It has been 20 days since I agreed to give it another try. I have not seen or talked to him. We have been emailing. I asked him several questions as to how is he prepared for moving forward. His responses have been well written. The thing is, his emails have been void of emotion and bordering on cold, almost robotic and it takes him almost a day to respond. I asked him if he would like to meet for some light conversation and he said he wanted to wait until I found a therapist. I can’t even begin to tell you how many I have contacted and they all say they are not taking new patients and he is not helping me, so once again I’m doing all the work to make this work. I have asked him several times if he could return my messages sooner. It’s causing me discomfort because this is what he would do in the past during bad times and I said I would appreciate it if he put some feelings into his emails, that would let me know he  really wants to do this. Then he mentioned in his next email that when he thinks of me he gets a sexual feeling, that’s it. When I questioned him again he said he was feeling depressed and was going to start medication.

One of the main issues we have had is that when things are good, loving and happy that triggers an episode. I don’t think he is playing games or manipulating. I feel and I don’t know, that he just can’t let himself be happy and he is sabotaging it. He got what he so badly wanted and instead of embracing it, he is pushing me away.
I feel so sad for him, but this is very painful for me. I’m not walking away because it’s just a matter of time before he does.
I am so deflated.
B53

I'm so sorry you are wrestling with this painful situation. 

So, do I have this right that you are frustrated with the pace of reconciliation/reconnection?

As a very general statement, I would hope you can be deliberate about accepting things as they are now and finding enjoyment in the situation as it is right now, while holding open the door for more in the future.

If more comes...great.

If it doesn't come...you still have an enjoyable life.


How does that sound as you read that a couple of times?

Best,

FF

FF,
Well, I think he just broke up with me. He said he is sorry he is not the man, I wanted him to be. He is the victim.
 I was telling him that I wanted him to respond to my emails and show me that this is what he wants. He didn’t have to read my mind, I was asking him.  We use to text each other everyday and say good morning and good night when ever we were apart. He was very animated, talkative.  He isn’t anything like the person I know. I know I was use to being loved bombed, but from back to nothing. He could say, Maybe how are you doing today or nice to be talking to you again, have a nice day. Just anything other than just answering a question. I’m not asking for a huge declaration of love, just pleasantries. I feel like I’m talking a robot,  I mean I haven’t said a lot, but I mentioned starting to feel hopeful, I asked to meet and he told be of a flashback he had. My answer was I’m sorry that you had to go through that. That must have been awful. I’m was trying to me caring.

I know I have been very anxious and I told him that I was feeling a little depressed.
 
I mean I know that you are right , I should of accepted the way things are now and work from there. It’s too late now.
B53


He approached me, he could act happy about it.
B53

 :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug:

Please take some time to care for yourself this evening.  Something extra special.  What would that look like?

Best,

FF

I have someone coming over to do stuff for my work. I think this the cruelest thing he has ever done.

I sent him an apology. I feel he was probably feeling I was attacking him. I am sorry for that. I been telling him that I am extremely anxious and having a difficult time. He has never been there for me before, why would I think he would be there now. It is probably a blessing.

Due to the risk that many here could face legal consequences if they worded their apology wrong (as in "I'm sorry we had that fight" which could be used to make false allegations of DV) then be cautious how and even whether to apologize.

A legally safer way could be something like, "I'm sorry you feel that way."  It addresses the emotional situation.  No court, officer or agency would act on hurt feelings.

Thank you FF,
Legal issues is not something I would worry about. First of all we are not married and we have our own homes. He is not on the high conflict side, more depressive. I feel a good part of it was my fault and that is not something I like to admit. But, this would never of happened if he didn’t have BPD. We have never done well communicating by email. When I get upset I have a hard time expressing myself it comes out like I’m attacking, when in reality it’s frustration, which can eventually lead to wanting desperately to be understood. After two years of being BPed, I have started to react, something that for much of our relationship, I was able to control. The situation that happened, would not of happened in person. I have spent a lot of time on self improvement and near the end I have noticed that my old way of reacting is returning and I need to address it. Trying to express myself over email seems to trigger me. 

I’m use to being love bombed to have that totally taken away was not something that I expected. I’m not sure why he was behaving the way he was, but I should of waited to address it. I have been looking for a therapist and I keep getting told they are not taking any new patients. I have been turned down by at least ten or more and it is starting to get to me. Our whole reunion was planned to begin when a therapist was in place. It’s been 20 days and we haven’t even talked. No therapist, no reunion, no signs of affection and add being stuck alone in the house because of COVID is effecting me. I think I was hoping for some empathy and a need to feel some love.
I apologized and if he doesn’t respond, then that’s the end and I move one. I'll go pour my heart out again on the detaching forum. I am physically and mentally exhausted.

B53

Focus on this.  Focus on caring for yourself.  Take an extra walk, eat some extra fresh veggies...decide to handle those papers later and get some extra sleep.

We're with you on this...

Best,

FF

Thanks FF!
We are going to meet. We never have issues when we are face to face. We always have problems with emails, what were we thinking. I’m willing to listen. In my head, I would be happy if he says it’s not going to work, I just wish my heart was on the same page.
B53

So...help me understand your choose to use email and similar forms of communication?

Best,

FF

FF,
The reason we were emailing was because the plan was to have a therapist in place and then go from there. Then his and my therapist could talk to each other and they could help us do things like set up reasonable  boundaries and expectations. Remember when I said that I wanted him to do certain things and you told me it was too much to except from a BP. A therapist could point it out and help me find other ways to get my needs met. What we were not expecting was how hard it's has been finding one. The whole country is going crazy with COVID and they are booked. They can choose people who are going to pay the highest and not use insurance. I also want one that is familiar with BPD or at lease mood disorders or behavioral issues. He is already paying out of pocket for his therapist and can afford to pay out of pocket for one for me, but that will make things tight for him. That was one of the email issues that was causing me angst. He said at one time he would pay out of pocket for me, but I wanted to double check before I contacted one. He didn't answer my email until a day and a half later, then we got off topic and he never answered my question.I can sense something is not right with him. He said he was depressed and was  going to start taking medication, but he could of told me before the fact. He would always share things like that with me. If he had shared that sooner, things might have ended differently. I asked him something a few days before and he wrote back asking if we were still on. I read back the email and I'm not sure why he thought differently, except sometimes I have difficult time explaining myself and he took something from that. I tell him all the time not to read negative things into anything I write because my intentions are never to be hurtful or unkind. Remember the first letter he wrote that started this thread. Someone pointed out that it was a little cold, not the kind of letter that someone would write if they wanted someone to come back. I didn't think much of it, but then all of his emails are like that.He isn't engaging. With him waiting so long to answer my emails and showing no emotion, I was wondering if he had changed his mind. I know he is learning to regulate emotions, but that shouldn't eliminate them. There is hardly anything that gives me the feeling that he is even the same person. I don't know what to think. I will see when we meet. I don't need love bombing, but I need something. It is so strange, if I didn't know better I would think he was on drugs.
B53

Hmm...I'm going to circle back again.

If there is a mode of communication that isn't working, you and you alone can decide not to use it.

So...only talk on the phone or only in person or..

You get the picture. 

That way you can focus on the relationship without the distraction of an unhelpful mode of communication.

Of course, sometimes you being to wonder if it's the mode of communication or something else...

What do you think?

Best,

FF

FF,
Your right on both accounts. That communication doesn’t work. I don’t think the issue would of come up at all if we had been talking. At least I don’t think so. I asked him early on to get together and he turned me down.
There is a BP issue, but it could also just be a couples issue. As we remember there was the whole talk of having someone read your mind. I now realize that in the past I will ask for what I need ( this is when I am not in obvious emotional turmoil or illness) and it is often not responded to. You probably noticed it was a touchy subject, I try hard not to do all stereotypical female reactions,  like nagging or silent treatment, mind reading. Often I just give up and take care of what it is myself, if I can. I don’t like confrontation but at this point when I’m not being heard. I’ll be a little more forceful and direct, but it doesn’t seem to matter because the only way he seems to hear me is when I act out. Then I get his attention and the response is negative. My acting out didn’t happen often  and when it did it was the result of great frustration. It may not come across this way, but people tell me that I am a very patient person. I joke it’s my only virtue.
After several attempts to try to connect with him, I wrote that I was feeling that he changed his mind and maybe he doesn’t want to do it.  He said that he was trying to keep his feelings in check.  I wrote, I would like some reassurance because to me it feels like you don’t care. I wrote that I want to start feeling the love, joy and fun, the reason we are doing this. I feel like you are in your world and I am in mine. When things are good we have such a special connection. Then I say, I’m not saying that you feel this way, because I don’t know, that’s the problem, I don’t know. All I would need to hear is, I’m am excited about making this work or I’m sorry it comes across like I don’t care, this really is important to me, a connection to something personal between us.  The only positive comment he responded was that when he thinks of me he is aroused. That is the only personal positive statement I have received. Everything else is like an answer to an essay question, it is not that it’s not positive, but it’s not personal. This could be written to anyone. Knowing the temperament of BP, I try to write everything as kindly as possible. But I get a little bolder. I say I am asking you for what I need and your not listening and I copy a few sections I had written. I often state that it is hard to read tones in emails and I hope he believes that what I write is never meant to be unkind or uncaring in any way. You know, walking on eggshells. His response is that he guesses that he can’t  be the man I want.

This is a guy who supposedly wants me back. He has said that he has made mistakes in the past and he wanted to make it up to me. I am working really hard to find a therapist. The only thing I can think of to have done differently was to keep my mouth shut and wait for a therapist.  It’s been 22 days. He sent me this long email on how he was learning empathy. I am so confused and dispirited. After being on this site, My gut knew it was a bad idea, but we always hope things will change.
He is coming over later today. I am going to listen to my CD about communicating with love and styles of arguing to avoid. Have an open mind.
Thanks for listening.
B53

 

This SCREAMS at me with THE answer.

Do you believe what he "told" you in each of these instances?

I'm not arguing with you, I am hoping you will "try on" a different...or a few different, points of view.

Best,

FF

B53, my heart goes out to you. How frustrating to not be able to find a therapist because of covid, and have that be a factor in this delicate moment in your relationship.

It sounds like this in-person meeting with him today could help answer questions about what he's feeling, and temporarily soothe some of the anxieties you're feeling about where he's at.

I'm curious. Have you ever experienced these feelings before? Has anyone else -- anyone significant -- been unavailable to you in a significant relationship like this?

Thanks L, that means a lot to me!

I’m already feeling sick to my stomach.

Yes those feelings go way back.   Been working on this for years. I grew up being emotionally neglected. I grew up in an upper middle class family and my physical needs were met. Well dressed, well fed.  My mother was a narcissist and my dad was always gone. I think my dad could actually of been BP. He was always mad at my mom and his mood could change at the drop of a hat. A lot of yelling. No one ever came to hardly anything I did, sports, gymnastics or cheerleading. They never said anything about my grades and I didn’t have a curfew. Can you imagine your teenage daughter coming in at 3am and no one even noticing. As long as I made my bed and was home for dinner, then I was good. I have always taken care of myself for as long as I can remember.

My  therapist, from years ago, thought it was surprising that I wasn’t promiscuous. I think my saving grace was that I had a great group of friends, guys and girls, that were very caring for each other. Most of us are still close today. I know that if I really needed them, they would be there for me. I had the same best friend since I was in the first grade. She was an only child and her mother was like a mother to me.

They talk about in psychology that everyone has their currency, that which motivates them and you need to know what that is to  keep your partner happy. It is already my personality type INFJ and with my past, mine is validation, acknowledgment. I not needy, but a nice job , good morning goes a long way for me. I sense people’s feelings and negative feelings and moods in people or groups is upsetting to me. The hypersensitivity.

Being love bombed is of course the best thing ever! Even though it’s great, I don’t need all that, but going from that to zero is hard. I think We have been apart long enough to be ok, I never got my self worth from him anyway, but it’s not giving me what I need to trust someone who has hurt me in the past.

My gut is telling me that this isn’t going to end well, but I want to stay positive and not let my gut feeling sabotage the outcome.
B53

This makes sense if you were not able to get what you deserved from emotionally absent parents.

Your gut becomes all too familiar with disappointment because the people selected for these important *significant* spousal roles are not capable of giving what you ultimately deserve. It's almost like, "See? I told you so. No one loves me" when our partners fail.

The saving grace is your amazing resilience, and the ability to find supportive loving friends who demonstrate what your family dynamics suggested otherwise.

It bodes well for you that this support system is in place.  :hug:

What do you think is generating the feeling of being sick to your stomach?

My stomach is affected when I’m stressed and I don’t know who is going to show up. Loving, absent, judgmental. Are we going to talk around it or discuss it. It’s important to me that  I can be proud as to way I handle myself, even if he behaves badly. I don’t actually get sick.
He will be here in an hour.

Good luck!

Thank you all for the support!

It went amazingly well. Emotions remained calm. He does seem very different, almost like a alcoholic in recovery and working the program, only the program is DBT. It’s almost like he grew up. The over the top craziness wasn’t there, but the caring and kindness  was. We talked about the email and how that is not a form of communication for us and the anxiety it causes me. He talked about the bottled up anger he had from the emotional and physical abuse he went through at the hands of his father and his mother not stepping in to protect him. The nicest thing he said was that he couldn’t be critical of my behavior because it was result of how he treated me, that I wasn’t like that when we met.

Then this morning I got an email from a therapist that I contacted, and that she has an opening starting in February. Maybe there is something to be said about, timing is everything. .

I told him to stop apologizing to me. That the person I see and always saw between episodes didn’t do that to me, it was the person he turned into who did and that person I really don’t like.

Of course I know that he isn’t healed and challenges are going to come up, that’s a given, but I am hoping that our support system will be in place and can help us through it.

I wouldn’t of thought in a million years that it would have turned out this way and maybe that last horrible three months was a blessing in disguise. I think he needed time alone to focus on his recovery.

It means so much to me to know that I had all your support cheering me all. Hopefully I won’t need to write here for awhile, but it would be magical thinking to think I’m not going to need your support along the way. I will stay connected to read the advice that others are given because you can never stop learning. I don’t feel that I know enough to give too much advice, but I like to greet the new people. I remember that when I was new here, just people saying a few kind words was so important, because what brings us here, is a lot of heartache and pain, and only the people here really understand.
B53

It is nice hearing of a case where a BPD individual has become better and not toxic in a relationship.  I would definitely like to hear from you a few weeks/month in to see if his changes are temporary or permanent.

 |iiii |iiii |iiii

Please keep posting!  Positive change can come from both directions.

How do you feel now, looking back on the past few weeks/months?

Best,

FF

I actually believe that we needed that time apart, because I think we were both depleted and he needed to focus on his recovery. The last three months have been very painful and I could have certainly done without that. I feel that with the support that I have gotten here, I was heading in a positive direction and if this fails, I know that I have a soft place to fall. I will be alright in the end.
 I will keep posting. I’m not that naive to think it is all smooth sailing ahead. I am trying to stay in the present and enjoy this time.  I know this could be a honeymoon period and it is hard not to worry that it could end any time.

As always, thanks.
B53

Wishing you all the best, B53! So pleased everything is falling into place. 2021 is the year of new beginnings :)

Thanks!
Maybe 2021 is the year!  Hopefully for everyone!

Aww, very nice!    :wee:

Stay involved in here and post when your experience may benefit someone else, even if the stories don't quite matchup.    CoMo

CoMo,
I will. Right now things are great, but we all know it’s been that way before. He has told me a lot about many breakthrough moments in what he calls his journey. He has opened a lot of scary doors. His childhood abuse was unimaginable. It is especially hard for me to hear because I teach young children and know their innocence. I think it helps that he is able to share it and considers me a safe person.I am empathetic, but that will not give him permission to treat me badly in the future. I remain cautiously hopeful.
B53