BPDFamily.com

Hi. I've lurked on this board for months, but I made a new profile for privacy. Thanks to all who post helpful advice.

I'll try and keep it brief. Married, 2 kids, husband with BPD. Things have been slowly declining for a long time, but I finally woke up and realized what an unhealthy abusive relationship I was in roughly 1 year ago. Around 3-4 times last I seriously spoke about separating, either after a really bad argument or because he confronted me about my "true" feelings - so never on my terms or timing. Each time, he of course promised to change, to give me what I need, to rebuild, etc. Each time, predictably, things would improve for a bit before slowly sliding back into old, crazy-making patterns. His main traits are extreme jealousy, v insecure, way over attached, fear of abandonment. He's mentioned many times that the end of our marriage would be tantamount to death for him. Recently, he's started saying that he would just "disappear", which I assume to mean not being in our kids' lives. While he can veer into borderline abusive with the kids when extremely escalated, he is generally a good father. I hope that makes sense, given the context of this illness. He holds a job, he contributes to the household, etc. He just, unfortunately (?), make me effing crazy with the emotional manipulation, gaslighting, accusations and so on.

Anyway. I had made my mind up to leave after Christmas, not wanting to ruin it for the kids. He must've sensed something, because he confronted me Dec 22, and I just couldn't do it, again not wanting to ruin it for them. He, of course, promised the sun, moon and stars, like usual. Things were good briefly, but of course they started to decline again, so I started actually plotting my exit (time, date, method).

Then, it's like they have a 6th sense, because again TODAY, he confronts me AGAIN about whether I want to stay married. This is at 7am on a weekday before work & school - so, obviously, a terrible time and again not of my choosing. Ultimately, maybe I'm too weak or too nice, but I tell him again that I'm willing to 'try'.

But it's a lie. I'm done. I don't have hope. I'm still planning on going ahead. I feel terrible for lying and leading them on, but I also am learning that I just can't do it in person. And I'll have to keep pretending (giving kisses, saying I love you, making future plans) until the day. So I'm not really sure what I'm asking. In a "typical" relationship, I feel like doing this would be horrible, a**hole behavior, but here it's a form of self-proctection? Maybe I'm looking for validation. Both that it's "okay" to do this, and that I plan to leave a letter rather than speaking about it. Obviously, I'll eventually have to speak to him post-event, arrange finances, kids, etc, but I'm being a chicken about the actual "pulling the trigger".

I just posted something similar to this with my Wife.

I plan to talk to her tonight about her getting some help, But  I am leaving whether she does or not. I have papers filed. I have 4 kids.

I thought the same thing that this is going to take her by surprise and I feel guilt about it. But I think I have to keep it away from her until she is served to keep the peace as long as possible.

Sorry your going through it as well. 

Thanks, Serenity. Good luck with that. It's been hard for me NOT to fall for the pleas of "well, I'll get help, just give me the chance". it's good to hear someone else feels similarly about the need to "keep the peace" until the moment of.

I'm figuring to separate first then worry about papers? I might be a chicken in wanting to ask for divorce by letter (taking the kids away for the weekend, asking him to move out), but I can't go so far as to spring it on them by serving them. The initial docs look pretty easy to start using documents online from the courthouse. The tricky stuff after serving is where I figure can think about mediator/lawyer/etc, just to save some pennies.

You are not alone.  My fiancé had to deal with this for almost a year while she worked her plan for a surprise exit that included arranging for a place to live and all the other things necessary to land in a safe place with children.   It was very emotionally painful for her, but she made it through.  She knew she could not have survived and would have been emotionally beaten down if he knew the truth of her plans.  He was suspicious and constantly asked her for validation of of her love.  After listening to what she went through, frankly, I'm surprised she actually was able to pull it off.  She knew right from the start a surprise exit was her only way out.  Good luck.  CoMo

I feel this. I don't know, but faking it and pretending is one thing and something I'm used to, but directly lying feels much harder. The FOG is everywhere. I guess this is where we have to do our own work to be okay with the gray moral areas that crop up when seizing our lives back.

So, when are you moving out?

or

Is that dependent on what he may or may not say or do?

Best,

FF

The plan is to ask him to leave. Co-habitation is not an option. I WFH and he does not, so me being primary caregiver to kids is a natural path, with working out equitable and fair custody in the long term (assuming he doesn't just "disappear" as threatened).

I am a situation that is very very similar and am struggling with the same.  Trying to bridge the gap between being honest about the severity of things and my feelings and not blaming or diagnosing, and not being ready.  It's awful.  And my wife picks up on all that... my careful wording, and then she tries to pull it out of me.. "Why can't you just say X" "Your words hurt me so much".  I have spent 10 hours in a day 'talking' about it, trying to stay calm and collected, explain what I could.  It is so exhausting I just become numb and can't even think straight for a day.

I have "had" to say that I'm staying multiple times.  I would say that "I'm staying now", "I'm trying to make it work" and she just drives into me for hours why I need to qualify it with "now" and "trying".  To the point I give in.  I didn't a few days ago and she didn't eat for a day and was a nightmare to just be  in the same room as her sulking, rageful presence, and I couldn't let it continue for our daughter's sake. I say that but it was probably for me just as much if not more so.

On top of it all, I know I need to help myself for my own issues, but doing so is in direct conflict with keeping the peace, and getting her help.  I don't think either of us can make progress in our own health while together, but I'm the only one to realize that, and probably will for the foreseeable future.

The idea of a surprise exit is tormenting me.  Although I don't know that it could be anything but, especially being in this hole I've dug for myself.

I have thought about reading a letter to her and then giving it to her so it's clear and things could not be twisted after the fact.  I would prefer to ask her to leave.  Partly to keep my daughter's  environment consistent, and partly to encourage her to not be alone.  She has no close friends or family in the area to look over her, be there for her and I honestly worry about her safety being left by everyone she has left and being utterly alone.

I can empathize with the struggle of how to go about it.  I think most would say to do what is best for the health and safety of your kids.  If it's leaving a letter, then that's what it is.  I would bet your husband is unlikely to see it rationally or respond much differently regardless of how it's done.  The fact that it is done at all will likely far outweigh the methods in his mind.  I would also expect that regardless of how it's done, he'll bring it up as wrong either way.

THANK YOU. I'm sorry you're going through this, but it's good to hear others are going through similar. So much of your post resonated with me - "hole we've dug ourselves" - SO TRUE.

Interesting dilemma... we're trying to be so fair and ethical in everything we do but... the other spouse doesn't do that and manipulates the situations and obligations and guilting.  How dare we behave as they do.

FOG = Fear, Obligation, Guilt

This thread caught my eye.

Right now I have no current plan of leaving, but I have thought about how it would have to happen many times.  My thought process is this:

1)  I would not do this without a lawyer.  I would find a way to cover costs, even if it meant borrowing from family or selling something dear to me.  My W is too unstable. 
2) I would find a lawyer/firm who has experience with exactly this situation of a mentally unstable spouse who may try anything.
3) I would have everything planned out and ready.  New place to live for one of you, some things already packed, money stashed away, and support network of family or friends.  In my case, I would consider telling family of W that this was coming if I felt they could be supportive.  I would also contact W's therapist in advance. 
4) I would keep up the "lie" to W and kids as much as I could.  I probably would not go so far as to talk about plans for the future, etc, but I would not give appearances that I am on my way out.  The reason is that not doing so could be dangerous, and make preparation impossible.   

The reality is you have to do what is best and safest for both you and your kids. 

This is true. We all live in unique situations with unique people (though with similarities due to mutual illness).

FD, it's a point, but I would never want to start to sacrifice core elements of my character like that, because then they really have won. I understand your point, though, and it's an interesting thought.

Im new here.  Your story is almost identical to mine.  I am taking time to plan the "safest" exit possible for me and my kids but he is confronting me about being distant all the time and the tension and chaos is palpable at all times in our house and i feel so horrible for my kids for raising them in this toxic environment.  It is so horrible and I just want to do the right thing for them so they can live a healthy life and not be faced with mental illness like anxiety or depression or my worst fear, BPD.

I feel so traumatized by his past anger and accusations and jealousy and mind games that I feel anxious around him all the time so I avoid him and avoid talking to him.  I cant even fake the "i love yous" and kisses or cuddles anymore and so he gets more hurt and angry and treats me so poorly.  but maybe i should force myself to to stop the anger?  I tell him i feel scared and anxious all the time and he literally mocks me.  I am in disbelief that I married someone that i have been with for 15 years that actually mocks me when I tell them I feel scared.  how did i end up in this situation?   I fantasize about what life with someone without BPD would look like.  Imagine someone accepting and validating your thoughts and opinions instead of being threatened by them!  it would feel so good.  I watch other close non BPD couples function so smoothly and lovingly and feel this deep longing for what I've always wanted, what i thought I was committing to.  I am in deep mourning over realizing what my life has actually turned out to be.

That must be hard to go through. Do you have a plan? Do you think he'd leave if you asked (either in-person or via note)? Stay safe.

We actually separated this past summer and it was literal hell.  I thought i asked for the separation in the most respectful and peaceful way possible:  I had a friend take the kids and I made dinner for my husband and told him that we need to take a break because the fighting is so hurtful for the kids.  He didn't take it well but we didn't get into a fight, he was just dejected which was understandable, although i was a little concerned that he wasn't able to see where i was coming from about putting the kids first (this was before i knew about BPD.)  I told him i wanted to tell the kids together the next night and he was upset at the idea but seemed to have heard me.  The next night when we sat down over dinner and I gently tried to tell the kids, they started crying and he absolutely LOST it and made it so much worse and more traumatizing.  Started shouting at me: "how can you do this to us?  how can you be doing this?"  the kids were terrified and I ran down to the garage hoping that removing myself would de-escalate the situation and so I could call my brother to come over and help.  My husband came down to the garage and started yelling at me again and saw i was on the phone and then lost it even more when he discovered i had called my brother.  my 5 year old daughter was standing there watching him berate me and he even called me an effing C-word several times in front of her.  Truly one of the most devastating moments of my life.  She was begging him to stop and so was I.  I scooped her up and took her into another room and closed the door just holding her.  I have never seen my kids cry like that and carry so much guilt for putting them through it.  He continued to freak out but luckily my brother came through the door and took him outside for a long walk to calm him down.  Thank god my brother got there so quickly.  Long story short is it didn't go well and I felt like i was the one who had to leave to deescalate things but I really didn't feel ok leaving my kids with him that night but felt i had no choice.  I literally didn't sleep a wink that night because I was so afraid for them and had such regret leaving.  We stayed separated for 2 months sharing the kids (2 nights on 2 nights off) and there were many more episodes of him freaking out at me.  It was extremely difficult.  It took him about 2 weeks to finally get to the "im sorry" phase of the cycle.  He cried and apologized and begged for me to get back together.  I was traumatized and we stayed separated for another 6 weeks.  during that time was when I started to learn about BPD.  Figuring out what he might have and that I wasn't alone gave me new hope.  He was going to therapy and I took a risk and told him what I had learned.  He took it surprisingly well.  We even bonded over it.  He seemed so open at the time and honestly like he wanted to change.  The kids were so miserable and I was so miserable that I finally caved in and got back together with him.

And now 6 months later he has forgotten all those promises he made.  And again the kids are miserable because of all the anger.  So now I have to plan an exit and this time i'm going to do my homework now that I know he likely has BPD.  I hadn't thought of leaving a note but I will consider that option. I do find when i write to him it is much easier to express myself because he doesn't have the opportunity to derail me.

I have a lot of planning to do and i feel very scared and just want to protect my kids from what happened last time.  I think its going to take me months to get this plan together.  If anyone has any suggestions please share.  Thanks for reading.

Popsie I definitely understand what you mean when you say leaving a note might be better because then he can't derail you.

I'm considering doing the same, but sometimes I'm afraid that would set her off even more if she felt like I got off too easy and she didn't get to be heard.

At the same time, nothing's going to come across well, and they CAN'T just take things well or really understand us, so what's the difference how they take it? We need to just do things for ourselves in the safest way.

It's been so hard, sometimes I wonder "can ending it really be that easy?".

Of course, if we do it that way, it will only give them more ammunition, complaining to family "they ended our marriage with a text/note. Didn't even have the decency to do it in person", but again, who cares. They're never going to see things clearly even if we stayed and did it their way.

It sounds like your brother is very supportive and also good at taking charge of the situation if he was able to get your H to go for a walk during all of that. Do you think he could be there to moderate doing it in person and keep it from escalating?

If I had a person like that, I'd do it that way, but I have no family here.

Oh Popsie, I'm so sorry you went through that, and that's everything i fear from mine. I know my H would be exactly the same, which is why cohabitating even for a few days while looking for an apartment, or whatever, would never work. Thankfully your brother helped you there. I have a sister nearby that would do the same (and my BIL has taken H for similar walks like yours!), but I hope it never comes to that.

I'm sorry too that he returned to old habits. That's happened to me, exactly. After every occasion where I've either been close or actually wanted to separate, he always promises reform and gives it a genuine effort for a couple weeks (usually trying to pull on my guilt that it's something spiritual, which like, how am I supposed to argue with God?) before of course the BPD behaviors creep back in. It's that cycle of intermittent reinforcement we all know so well.

Anyway, all that is why I want to leave a letter. Some outsiders might see it as cowardly, but I view it as one small way to take control AND protect the kids. A letter they can't argue with. It's a firm boundary that takes a more conscious effort to cross than just arguing their corner. I mean, if someone I loved tried to separate, I'd probably be upset and defensive and make promises too (the first time, anyway)! H and I have a history.of writing things out, so it's not totally unprecedented.

Siochain,

That is a very good suggestion to ask my bother for help.  Thank you for suggesting that.  Im sorry you don't have family to support you through what you are going through.  To be honest, I mostly rely on friends because my brother is having his first kid in a month so I feel guilty for dragging him into this mess when he already has  a lot going on.  I can really empathize with you not having family to help support you because for so long I didn't either until my brother moved back home.  Do you have close friends you can lean on?

And I agree with everything you said about leaving a note.  The optics may not be good to an outsider but that's the least of my concerns.  He will be angry too but he will be angry no matter how I do it.  My first priority is to the kids and trying not to traumatize them again. 

Thanks for your time in replying. very much appreciate your support.

defiantraspberry,

Thanks so much for your kind words and time in writing me back.
 Its good that you already know to expect that type of behaviour from your H if you leave which was why i thought it might be helpful to share that story.  It sounds like you have come up with a good plan that will work for you and your kids.

Its so interesting how so many of the same situations come up for so many people who post, like how you also had to lean on your sister and BIL to help in difficult situations.  It is surreal to need to ask for that kind of support from my loved ones and friends but it is truly what I need to do to get through this.

Another concern I have about leaving with a note is if I take the kids and go somewhere without telling him before hand he will absolutely freak out and I also worry about the legal implications of that.  I actually don't want to break his trust with regards to the kids.  nor do i want him to feel threatened that I might take them away.  He is a lawyer which means i really have to be careful here.
 I think if i can somehow come up with an excuse to leave with the kids that he ok's before hand will mean a smoother exit.  And in a more practical sense, he will be expecting me to leave on a trip with them so it wont be difficult to pack bags and prepare etc.  Like maybe I need to book a mommy/kid trip with my friends that he is aware of in advance and then leave the note when we leave?  Is this an issue in your situation too?  or can you just take the kids and leave?

Im sorry you've had similar experiences and are going through what sounds pretty much like the same situation.  the spiritual excuse you mentioned reminds me of some of my H's more creative excuses over the past year... sigh...  its exhausting.  And your letter game plan isn't cowardly, you are so brave for taking control of your life again.

Absolutely not a legal expert, but I believe there's nothing wrong as long you don't leave the state and don't block access for a long period of time without an order. Something like a weekend away I don't think would constitute any legal violation. you could even say in your letter, "I am not kidnapping the kids. I am not blocking access. We are taking a few days to let a difficult situation calm down so they are not witness to any upsetting scenarios. I have blocked all contact between us for a few days until I feel comfortable, and at that point we can come to an equitable agreement about temporary custody." - that's my plan, to write something similar just to cover the bases. Then, the ball is in HIS court, because if he acts inappropriately and dangerous, you can get a temporary restraining order.

How you get out of the house is of course going to depend on circumstances. If he's at work, you can just go. Very very worst case scenario is pre-pack a small bag for you all, hide it, then when he pops out to the store or something, go then? If you've been on trips before and that's something that he's comfortable with, that could totally work too (just don't go to the place you've told him...).

Thanks for this.  Lots to think about.  I think its the years of my words and actions being used against me that make me fear that if I leave with the kids without telling him in advance he will do the same to me in the future and I would be terrified if he did.  I worry it will open the door to him doing things of this nature, using the kids as pawns to torture me.  I think in my situation I have to plan it as a trip where he knows the kids are going away with me in advance because this is what I would expect from him.  But I realize every BP relationship is different and your H might not be like mine and wont seek revenge by taking the kids without asking first. 

I also feel like the less sneaky i have to be, the less anxious i will feel.  My anxiety prevents me from thinking straight and makes decision making very challenging so my goal is to keep my anxiety  as low as possible so i can make good decisions and feel strong.

I was thinking about your original question about keeping up the pretence until you leave.  One thing i find so difficult is that when he doesn't get physical intimacy from me he starts to act out and get angry but I just can't bring myself to be intimate with him after he has treated me so badly and broken my  trust.  Is this an issue for you too or are you still able to be physically affectionate?  Hope you dont mind me asking and I understand if its not something you want to write about.

Very much appreciate your reply thank you.

I think we know our spouses the best and have to do what works for our very individual situations! Mine is a generally good father but has issues coping with them on his own but at least knows this so I cannot fathom a scenario where he'd voluntarily take them away because he does love & care for their ultimate best interests. I don't think I'm being naive since had known him for 13+ yrs. Sad to say, the most revenge or harm he would cause would be a suicide attempt TBH.


boundaries around sex are a big issue between us. I tend to give in and fake it because I cannot be bothered with the fallout. I hate it and hate myself, but sometimes we just do these things. and not just sex but all sorts of physical intimacy (kissing, cuddling) because he's super touchy-feely and I am not. I mean, obviously all the history and trauma and stuff piles up and makes you not want to be physically close to this person, but they need it so much to feel validated & wanted, so it's a huge disconnect. it's one of the things between that is massively crazy-making to me and a big contributor to why I can't see going on like this, having to do this 3, 5, 10 years down the road.

Defiant Raspberry
I fully understand what you're talking about. I'm in the exact same situation. I don't want to have sex at all, and she complains and pushes for it. She needs to hold hands in the car, gets upset if I don't kiss her as soon as I come home, always wants to touch and be affectionate, and won't understand that she's terrified me when she had her outbursts and it's just an effort to be in her company and try to be pleasant.

She keeps bringing up sex, knowing I'm not even comfortable in the marriage at all. They don't even seem to care what we're experiencing. They just want what they want when they want, and think we're all robots.

Also, knowing that I'm considering divorce in my mind,I don't want to lead her on by having sex. I mean, what if I give in and have sex, and then a day later is when I finally snap inside and say to myself "this is it. I'm ready to leave". Won't that seem even crazier to her, thinking "but we just had sex yesterday. How can he say he wants to leave?"

She always says it will draw us closer, but I experience no such thing.

I'm mentioning all of this to say your experience is understood and shared by many of us. We hear you.

Defiant Raspberry and siochain,

thank you both for your very candid replies.  such a personal and difficult subject.  I too have faked it for years. The only way I could was to detach emotionally and basically keep it strangely impersonal.  Don't know how else to describe it.  I guess i just pretended like he was a stranger.  When my ability to do this disappeared at the beginning of last month (December was a tough one) I knew I was in deep trouble because, like you both said, he needs it for validation in an extreme way. 
(hope im doing the quote thing properly below. im new!)


You are so right, this is sadly so true.  It never ceases to amaze me how little he cares about how i'm feeling.  I have often said over the years before i knew he was likely BPD, "it's like he wants me to be a Stepford wife: cook, clean, have sex and never complain or express a preference."  It was so confusing because he's such a liberal politically and I always thought he would be a 50/50 partner when it came to raising kids and supporting my career.  I think that's the part for me that stings the most, the lack of consideration about how I feel.  My friends describe me as an "empath" so how did I end up with the polar opposite for a partner? what did i do wrong?  how can i avoid making the same mistake?

I also see your concern that if you sleep with them like everything is fine and then one day/ week just pull the plug it will be more confusing for them.  In the case with my H, he would take it as evidence and confirmation that I am not trustworthy (a regular accusation I have to contend with.)  He would be like "see!  i always knew you were a liar!"  But I totally don't judge anyone who does continue to have sex because its the only way to keep the peace and protect yourself and/or children.  ugh its so hard.

Defiant Raspberry- so true that we know our spouses best and I really appreciate being able to compare notes with you because you helped me to really think about these things in more detail.  I was just figuring it out as I typed so thank you for this.  Glad to hear you won't get resistance when you take the kids.  That is a major relief.  Tho i of course understand the weight of fearing a suicide attempt must feel so heavy.  Is he close with any friends or siblings that know about his suicidal thoughts?  could they help support him when you leave the note?

I think that whatever happens, we can make it worse in our minds with all of the what if's, and gathering the nerve. Once we're on the other side, it will be a relief.
I know how difficult it is to even enjoy a part of the day with this huge, dark cloud lingering. I just want it to be behind me already.
It's also so difficult to really internalize what we know intellectually about their disorder. No matter how much we read, it's still such an alien concept that they really are incapable of empathy, let alone inferring anything or reading between the lines. All they know is what they feel, and they feel A LOT. They can't separate from it and put themselves in our shoes, or say "wow I'm really hurting this person. Look at him/her. Let me either stop or let them go or even give them the choice".
No. All they seem to know is "I'm going to do exactly what I want or need and you're going to not only stay but like it too, because I WILL be analyzing your every gesture, facial expression, tone of voice for any sign you might abandon me, and even then, my grievances will be limitless".

siochain,


well said.  that's exactly it.  and like you said it is so difficult to enjoy the everyday with this dark cloud.  I find it so hard to even muster the energy to have fun with my kids.  I have lost my spark completely.
I have read in some books that BPDs are capable of empathy if they work at it but if this theory is true, the question is: do I have the stamina and desire to stay until that happens?  My conclusion is that i just don't.  Life is too short to choose to stay.  And above all, what i want the most is for my my kids to know what a calm and loving home feels like.

One thing that I read that I have been using is that emotionally, someone with BPD has been stunted developmentally.  So emotionally they are a young child.  They never developed how to give empathy or really love, and just stuck doing what they have seen as 'love' or 'empathy'.  They don't know how to deal with emotions or even identify them.  So when they feel something, it can only be from an external source... being YOU.  And that's projection.
In my situation, for example, we were cleaning a room, and our daughter needed something, so I kindly said, I'll be right back and I'll take care of that for you.  I knew at that time it was going to be an issue.  Later she comes out, already having done the thing and in kind of a pissy mood.  I stayed calm and pleasant, continued to engage her, etc... About 3 hours later she says to me "Did I do something wrong?", and proceeds to tell me that I have been giving off vibes that I was upset with her.
Without knowing what I know now, it would have pissed me off, confused me, frustrated me, etc... But with some of these perspectives, it makes it a little easier to get by until a decision or move is made.  It's certainly NO way to live, but can help in the short term.
Along with this though comes the risk of starting to de-humanize them.  I hate thinking of her in that way.  I want to treat my partner as an equal, but I have to either submit or take control in a way.

I also struggle with my own issues.  There seems to be a lot of information on codependents and BPDs being a natural magnet so to speak.  Kind of like the codependent (me) is addicted to giving and being as nice/flexible/forgiving/understanding as possible, and the BPD is addicted to taking, and manipulating to get.  Even if I was 100% strong it would be a very difficult journey to stay with my wife for years during recovery IF that even happens.  Add in my own struggles and it's a recipe for disaster, which is just what we have.  You wouldn't think an alcoholic could make progress even with all the determination in the world if they lived in a liquor store.  It just wouldn't be fair.

I mistakenly replied to post here by siochain.  Sorry.  But I'll leave it here since the principle is valid: you don't add to the number of children, and thereby adding even more complications, as you're winding down the relationship.


 You've been married about a year, have no children together, she wants intimacy and you're pondering leaving.  All I can say is that, whatever happens or not, you ensure you don't father a child on your way out.

As it is now, if/when the marriage and relationship ends, you both can walk away with no need to keep in contact.

However, once there's children, you have two decades of parenting ahead of you.  And though she may promise she's on birth control of some sort, you can never be sure.  You can't trust what she may or may not do to keep you with her.  That's how high the stakes are.

It's funny, my H ended a short course of therapy last year and I always thought it was due to COVID (it was around March, right when things were escalating). He told me, much later, that it was actually because he started to not like the therapist because they told him that his relationship with me wasn't healthy, it was extremely triggering to almost every single issue he needed to work on and they recommended getting out of the relationship (or at least taking a long separation while working intensely on issues). Of course, H *HATED* this as it goes against every severely-attached-to-me bone in his body. The liquor store analogy is a good one, yet here we are, he still insisting he can "work on us".

Oof, combine this with very non-confrontational and you have my personal recipe for disaster.

This really is a major thing I grapple with. I have come to realize I no longer have the stamina & desire to see if it can happen or not, but that's a hard thing to feel guilty about - the what ifs - which then makes me feel sad even when he's having good days/weeks.

I hear you.  I feel intense guilt and sadness for him and for the kids when he is having a good day or we all go skiing together or something like that.  It is gut wrenching.

The co-dependent thoughts are very interesting and something i've never considered.  I have to read up about that and see if I fit the traits.  I am often described as an "empath", "kind", "people pleaser" so I guessing I might be...  eek...  anyone have any good sources to learn more?


I really do believe this. Once our therapist explained this to me it really made sense.  The days seem to be much smoother when I think of him as a child but of course I cannot be patronizing.  I just don't share my thoughts and feelings and say encouraging things to him (even for taking out the garbage or doing the dishes.)  Does make things smoother on a day to day basis but sure isn't what I thought I was signing up for 10 years ago when I said "i do."  Also, it means not having an emotionally intimate or sophisticated relationship with your spouse and that for me is so unsatisfying.   Not to mention treating your spouse like you would treat a child is a real buzz kill romantically.  But I do agree with what you point out.  It is best to keep this perspective in mind and it does make the everyday smoother. 

Oh and just a questionI have related to spouses with BPD being stunted:  I find my H is also like a child in the sense that he doesn't take the initiative to do basic tasks and responsibilities. 

For example, he doesn't make sure the doors to our house are locked at night, if our faucet breaks he literally won't even call a plumber and just leaves it for months (i eventually deal but I leave it for a while to test my theory, it's like it doesn't even cross his mind), or on the weekend do the regular things that need to get done before the week (groceries, laundry, etc), not going to the dr when he has a bad rash, avoiding the dentist for years (not a money issue), or another weird one is his phone is barely working and it is critical for his job but he just complains about it every day for months and doesn't buy himself a new one even though he can afford it and the phone store is a block from his office.  I find this mind boggling.  Do other ppl have this experience or is it just particular to my H? 

I try not to get involved in the things I can avoid like the phone situation but many other things I just have to submit to being responsible for because they are a safety issue or the result of not doing them would negatively impact the kids (ie no groceries for lunches.)  It's hard to understand how he is so successful at work when this is how he operates behind the scenes.

I used to get angry and lecture but after figuring out he may have BPD I kind of assumed this might be related and just stopped getting angry and accepted these are limitations... but it sure is exhausting when you have 2 kids and a full time job.

I still struggle with this to be honest.  I too am a "people pleaser", and feel I'm extremely flexible and always felt like it was a good thing and felt ok with it.  But the more I read it may be that I'm just self soothing and not all that aware of what my true needs really are.  I'm trying to explore that some, but it has not yet fully resonated with me yet.  I question if I 'am' co-dependant, or if I have taken on codependency as a survival mechanism because of the emotional abuse.  Probably some of both.

As for the empath thing, I looked into it some because I have felt like I do empathize so much and feel it so deeply.  On the flip side, the BPD is hyper aware of their partners emotions, constantly watching for subtle signs, tone of voice, mannerisms, facial twitches or expressions. Couple that with the unpredictability and seemingly random changes in mood and responses from them, to survive in such a relationship for any length of time, I have learned that I NEED to be hyper aware of my own emotions (to hide them and deal with them internally to not provoke a response or diversion), and of my pwBPD to gauge what I should or should not say. 

There is a guy on youtube with a bunch of videos on the interplay between a codependent and a pwBPD.  He's not a therapist so I take what he says with a grain of salt, but he makes some interesting points and explains things well.   There are in fact some similarities between BPD and codependency in terms of the core issues from what I have come across (on a different scale).  But the thing I have taken away from that too is that codependent traits are not necessarily a bad thing when kept in perspective and that it can a learned response that can be unlearned.  I'm not seeing it as a bad thing... I'm taking it that I was predisposed to this kind of relationship.  Having fallen into it, it has taken advantage of that tendency and caused me to loose sight of myself. To the point of being completely oblivious to it until recently.  The problem now in my mind is how I can make any progress on myself while still in it, when I'm the only one aware of the problem.  Back to the whole addict analogy.  And not to mention my daughter, and even my pwBPD for that matter.  By being there and giving and placating the situation, I'm holding her back from coming to any kind of realization for herself.  I'm keep the wool over her eyes so to speak.

Sometimes I feel like I need a psychology degree to just sort through this stuff.

This is so true and hits the nail on the head for me. Even if he could possibly control himself enough to remove the abusive behaviors and the worst of the other negative stuff (jealousy, controlling, over-attached), there would ALWAYS be that. That feeling more like a parent at times. It's a major buzzkill. My H gets mega-frustrated so easily and gets all this anxiety around certain things. For example, trying to play a new board or card games, he struggles to understand even kid ones. The other weekend, I was starving so he said he would help the kids with a new-to-them game so I could eat, but even though it's a kid-friendly game, he couldn't figure out the rules? It's like, wow. I get that some people's brains work differently, but it's exhausting and not what I signed up for. He's on a completely different plane than me intellectually and emotional maturity, which will NEVER change (not trying to sound arrogant, really hope I don't come off as such). Maybe without all the other stuff, I could overlook it or come to terms with it. And these aren't things we could ever really tell them, either, since they're so insecure already. It's like, they can probably visualize how they should be less angry but not how to be more mature.

At least 4 out of 7 days, I have to help him find his wallet/keys/shoes/phone. And he wants validation like a child, too. Like he cleans the kitchen every day, which is great, but makes sure everyone in the house knows how hard he works. Of course these things are appreciated, but I shouldn't feel like I need to hand out gold stars for every little basic human task.

Sorry, this turned into a mini-rant. But like you point out, Popsie, living like treating our spouse like a child isn't fair nor sustainable nor a balanced relationship. While everyone needs nuturing from time-to-time, it shouldn't be constant.

I think some people in a relationship with a BPD are co-dependent, for sure. I think some, and I lump myself here too, aren't necessarily co-dependent in their overall life, but have become co-dependent in that specific relationship. This is my personal theory.

I actually disagree with the premise of co-dependency.  My understanding is that term came from the 12 step programs as a label from family/SOs of alcoholics/addicts.  If you go to an alanon meeting, you will hear plenty of self pity stories from folks who say they are co-dependent and their co-dependency was just as bad as their spouse's drinking.  They would actually take blame for their partner's substance abuse.  In some cases, that may be true.  But the vast majority I saw were people who got caught up in this cycle and no longer knew which was was up.  Yet, others in the program would tell them they are co-dependent, and then they would walk around feeling defective.  My feeling is that their lives more closely matched the classic abuse cycle.  ANYONE can get caught in the abuse cycle, and once in, your behaviors then resemble the classic "codepencency".  My last T felt this way - did not like the term "codependent".  She basically told me, "Max, there is nothing you are doing wrong.  You are not co-dependent.  You are in an abusive relationship."

Some members arrive here and serious ask, "My spouse always insists I'm the one who is wrong and causing our problems.  Am I the one with BPD or some other PD?"

After the usual disclaimers that we're peer support and not doctors, I typically comment that their sincere questions indicate they're not disordered.  Usually we can read their posts and assess that their posts do indicate they're relatively normal persons caught in distressing circumstances.

Professionals would likely call it Projection or Transference.  We use terms like Blaming and Blame Shifting

I often describe it as a situational behavior pattern.  They were reacting to and not causing the dysfunctional and unhealthy relationship.

Good points, FD and max. I read the "Co-Dependent No More" book a while ago and hated the whole thing, lol. Maybe that means something!

H actually used to call themselves co-dependent until we looked up what it was supposed to mean. He's not "co-dependent", he just has huge insecurities, intense fear of abandonment, forms inappropriate levels of attachment and strives for total enmeshment. When you combine those with intense jealousy/paranoia, it's a very bad relationship formula.

Just because one doesn't "believe" in codependency does not make it a potential effective tool for working on oneself in a dysfunctional relationship. I think the term is confusing because I will agree that there are plenty of "normal" people caught up in dysfunctional and abusive circumstances who could fit the description of co-dependent. I also think the term is misleading because most of these people are not dependent people.

Probably a better way of describing it is a person who has an uneven balance of focusing on other people's needs and feelings to the detriment of their own. They are mostly reacting to the other person's moods and feelings rather than acting in their own course. Letting a dysfunctional person drive the wheel so to speak while they do damage control and also to the extent of their own detriment.

Yes, it did come from the original AA 12 steps. It was observed that something was keeping the alcoholics from getting better, and that something was their enabler spouses who were not allowing them to face the consequences of their own behavior, hit bottom and take responsibility to change on their own. So a program began to try to understand why the partners of the disordered people were so willing to engage in enabling behavior to the extent of their own detriment.

I resisted it too and had no idea why a 12 step model would help me since alcohol is not a problem I deal with. Until a sponsor who was actually brutally honest volunteered to work with me, turn the mirror on me and showed me my part in the dysfunction dynamics and I found it made a difference for me. It doesn't require belief, maybe just being fed up enough with dysfunction to try it.

It's known that leaving a dysfunctional relationship without doing the personal work on one's side of it makes them prone to repeat the pattern with someone else.

Call it whatever one wants- enabling, codependency, empath, poor boundaries- they mostly mean similar things,  but whatever it's called- if it requires doing some work on personal change, that's more likely to help than trying to change the other person. Maybe it's about investing some time into self care, and being kind to oneself, not taking on a harsh label or thinking one is abnormal.

I was suggested to read that, I did, and found it really didn't describe me or my situation very well.  Not saying it was a bad book, just that I couldn't relate.  I took what I could from it, though.

It's weird.  One time my dad said to my W when she was pregnant something along the lines that growing up I always liked to take care of others and he likened my W to a "bird with a broken wing".  Huh?  Not sure where my dad got that, because I would much rather not take care of others.  I would much rather me take care of myself and others take care of themselves.   Not that I don't care, but that is not a role I like to be in or desire to be in.   I would *never* have wanted to be in this kind of r/s - it just so happened I wound up this way.  Not that I mind taking care of W, it's just that I would rather not have to.  That's where the book did not resonate with me.  I took from it that a co-dependent person needs another half to caretake in order for feel complete, and that we subconsciously seek out that role.  Totally not me.

The book didn't resonate with me either. I am not sure it is that helpful.

I grew up to be a people pleaser, and a doormat in my family. Walking on eggshells growing up was the norm. Later on, then someone brought up the idea of co-dependency, it didn't make sense to me. I think it's the "dependent" in that term. I wasn't dependent on anyone in the classical sense. I pretty much took care of myself from my early teens, had a job and worked all through college.

It wasn't until I was fed up and ready to try anything reasonable. A T suggested it. I think I just was willing to try it. I don't think I quite got it right away.

I can totally identify with this.  Im in the same boat.  As I read more about co-dependancy, I've started to think of it more as a spectrum.  I think I'm not an extreme case but definitely on the spectrum. Some things i can work on for sure. 


The hyper awareness with my H is so real!  Tone of voice and facial expressions are a really big deal.  For years I would torture myself wondering what voice to use, what facial expression to make if I needed to ask him to take out the recycling or whatever small task would usually set him off.  For so many years I took on this responsibility that it was me who had to change.  I have a pretty expressive face and a few years ago I started to wonder if my facial expressions were part of the communication problem I was having with H (this was before I started to suspect he had BPD.)  Well, our fighting got so bad and i was so desperate to be able to ask him for his help without the risk of him getting defensive that I actually got botox between my eyebrows!  Kinda hilarious but also sadly the truth!  Can't say i really noticed a huge difference in the fighting because he would always find some other "evidence" that I "think he is a piece of S&*t" but I did look a lot more relaxed!  Silver lining?  Sigh.  anyway, kind of sad reason to get botox when I read this story back...

 
So interesting to compare notes. This paragaraph really hits home for me (especially the part about you being starving and just needing enough time alone to feed yourself!)  I have the same issue with my H but it's regarding anything technologically based.  For example, the TV/ phone/ computer.  He is smart so it is very odd to watch him get so angry when he cant figure out his phone.
 Ive actually seen him roll around on the floor screaming  like a 3 year old when he thought he had deleted an email.  My very unprofessional theory is that he is lacks confidence in dealing with "technology" to the point where his primitive brain takes over the minute he even picks up the device so he starts from a place of "fight or flight" and his sophisticated brain can't even function like a kid having a tantrum.  I talk to him like i do my kids, " take a deep breath.  There is always a solution.  It will be hard to find a solution if you are stressed out."  but that makes him so mad and then i become the target so now i just leave the room!  Ugh its so hard to be around and I really hate what he is modelling for the kids when he goes to that "primitive" place.

Anyone else feel like a human receptacle for your spouse's self hatred?

On a lighter note, so many great posts here.  I'm getting a lot from reading all the different points of views and experiences so thanks for you time everyone.

Mine can be similar with technology, too! He can figure some stuff out but honestly is like a Boomer instead of millennial (no shade, just generalizations) in terms of tech savvy. Drives me crazy. But that's a good theory, Popsie. I'm a SUPER logical person that can actually work out most stuff just by sheer logic, and it drives him nuts because he just...can't (in fact, he used to turn it into a paranoia thing that just because I could use a YouTube video to make a simple repair to the washing machine, I must've slept with a plumber in the past  :cursing:  red-flag /side rant - though he's not said that in a while, thankfully).

I think, like you said, the primitive part of their brain kicks in! I never thought of it like that, thanks. He's like that with board/card games, for sure, as it's become so ingrained in his poor self esteem that he's "bad" at games, so I think that part of the brain takes over and he loses that function. Even the kids are tired of it - they're outgrowing easy games like Sorry & Uno (which are fine sometimes but not always/forever), so when he asks to play games with them, I can see their non-verbal reluctance! They don't want to deal with Dad's inability to cope or sometimes even tantrums, but they're bored of the super-easy games. That's a sort of thing that's only going to get worse as they get older, too. I have to remind myself that he's NOT stupid, he does complex calculations & things at work daily, but when he can't even help the 3rd grader with his math (another thing he's so ingrained that he's "bad at"), it's really hard not to get a bit despondent AND depressed about the future. I feel like this is a good example of something that's not abusive but fosters a tense/difficult environment which directly effects the kids.

I'm really connecting with this thought process.  My pwBPD doesn't want to try any new games ever... just the same ones.  Not too simple, but certainly nothing new.. and when we do she gets frustrated really easy.  Tends to forget a rule, and when we look it up and it's not as she said it's always 'well we have always played it like ...'.  Also I remember she always used to get upset with me if I won, saying I'm playing 'cuthroat', that's it's just a game and I need to lighten up.  So I should just make random moves?  I never got that, but NOW I do.  "I guess mom doesn't get to win" was common too.  She doesn't like to play games anymore.

Really well put.  I really worry about this too.  I see my kids do that non-verbal reluctance thing all the time with him.  its so painful to watch. I just want to rescue them in that moment.  And I can really feel my H's pain in the subtle rejection by his kids just solidify his self doubt.  

And wow, to be accused of sleeping with a plumber as to the reason why you are able to figure out how to fix something must have really been aggravating!  Its so painful to be put down like that when he should be grateful you took the chore on in the first place so he didn't have to!  Lots of similarities to my situation in this.  The jealousy is a real trigger for me.  I have to really work on not losing it and stooping his level when he accuses me of being disloyal or dishonest.  really hate that.

The primitive brain idea came to me when i was learning about 3 year old tantrums in an emotion coaching class i took out of desperation because i was getting mad at my kids too much and felt horrible about myself.  It was super helpful and radically changed the way I parent.  The theory is that when kids have tantrums they are literally unable to use logic so its best to just be patient and wait until their logical brains come back "on line" instead of scolding them or getting upset at them for having a tantrum.  (It only makes them feel shame about their feelings when they are unable to control themselves.)  Then you can actually talk to them and reason with them when there logical brain is working again.  Figuring this out took away a lot of the frustration for me.  Applying this idea to my H also really helps me in the moment.  but of course doesn't help the issue with "feeling like you are married to a child" problem.  I'm guessing my H was scolded or mocked by his mom (pwBPD i suspect) for having a tantrum and he never developed the skills to identify his feelings and the self awareness to self regulate/ self sooth his emotions.  Makes me so sad when I think of him as a small child having big emotions with nobody to comfort him and tell him his feelings are accepted and normal.

Yeah and I get that's why all the advice is to validate their feelings (like a kid), but like you said is frustrating and harbors resentment to resort to parenting techniques for your spouse. A T told him one time that his brain goes into emotional age of a 7yo when disregulated, which he agreed with and took to heart, though it doesn't CHANGE anything unfortunately.

I had a private laugh a few months ago, as I was in a school meeting for my son who's autistic. The teachers & paras were talking about different methods of dealing with his behavior, etc. It occured to me that everything they were saying applied to my H as well (thankfully he'd left the meeting by then as he had work, though I don't think HE would've made the connection). But I don't WANT to live my life having to employ parenting and behaviorial techniques on my partner, even if they work or not. I didn't sign up for that. That's where I struggled. Technically, "in sickness and in health" and all that crap, but how totally unfair. (life is unfair)

When the relationship ends, it usually is not a surprise.

People with BPD traits typically live with chronic fear of abandonment and engage in frantic efforts, often maladaptive, to manage those fears. There is no stability in the relationship because there is no stability in the self. To someone with BPD, you are abandoning him/her constantly because it is easier to perceive someone else doing this than recognizing it is she (or he) who is abandoning her (his) own self.

What is typically a surprise is the discovery that the usual words and actions no longer work to keep you attached.

The major change isn't the desire to go but the resolve to hold a boundary that is resolute. Your partners will be floored by this more than your desire to leave.

We can get so beaten down and turned around in these relationships that it takes everything just to survive. If you choose to leave in a way that preserves and protects what little you have left, that's to be respected. These are not just difficult relationships, they are the most difficult.

Try to view this as self-care for yourself. Let others be responsible for how they feel when you show concern for your own well-being.

You begin to model for others what it looks like to take care of yourself, showing others what your standards are so they know what it takes to be in a friendship or relationship with you.

The kids will take note  :hug:

Yep.  My W grew up with an abusive mother  She learned from birth to be hyper aware of mom's facial expressions as a survival mechanism.  I fear my kids are already learning this themselvesas a result of my Ws moods.

And W is keyed into my facial expressions.  She will claim I roll my eyes, have the wrong look on my face, etc.  And that is the focus of many rages.  The other night I was laying in bed with the TV on, almost asleep.  She came in to tell me something that was very important to her (something we had already discussed a few times all ready that day).  To her, I did not turn my head quickly enough to look at her when she was talking (remember, I was ALMOST asleep and my eyes were closed when she came in).  She immediately accused me of not caring because I did not look at her in the correct way.   

Deja vu. I roll my eyes. It's a thing. Probably not very mature nor a good habit, but we all have our foibles, right? Anyway, H is suuuuuuuuper sensitive and now will claim he saw me roll my eyes ALL the time, and if I say, "no, that time I did not" he'll claim I now do it so much it's subconscious. Uh-huh, ok.

Here is the thing, why "buy into" those conversations?

I tend to deflect them.  "Oh, are you asking about my perceptions?"   The key (at least in my theory) is to test and see how "curious" they are, vice "judgmental".

If there is curiosity, then I will venture forth in a conversation.

If there is "judgmentalism" especially the wildly inaccurate type about my thoughts and feelings, I don't validate that in anyway with further conversation.  

"Well, when you are curious about my thoughts...I'm available for a chat."  (said neutrally, I used to have big problems sounding like a smart azz)

Best,

FF

Because they bully you into it, ha.

Anyway. Just as a semi-update, all the "trying" and "positivity" has gone out the window today. He has spiralled into the usual insecure, anxious, black-hole of neediness. All day, it's the old line of "just love me hard and it'll be okay", which we all know is true because their need *IS* a black hole, can never be filled. He's been clinging to me all day, asking me 400 times if I'm definitely not cheating, not leaving him, still care, etc.

Even saw a flare of one of his emotionally abusive mainstays, saying I'm flirting or looking to pick up guys (we were in store, he said something rude [not that], so I walked away which then triggered off major anxiety and the above sentence). Guess he learned nothing from my ultimatum and our six dozen conversations since. How sad. He even acknowledges he's not well, looking on the internet for a therapist, but at the same time pulls all this same stuff. He's so terrified because he fundamentally believes he cannot live without me, which is pretty hard to live with and try and get out of. I know I have to not take on that guilt/feeling/sentiment, but damn if that's not hard. (glad the kids are at school...hopefully he'll equalize a bit before they get home)

So tough DR.  Sounds like you are doing a good job of not taking the bait but it must be exhausting.  I do find after a therapy session my H is in a much better headspace.  I wonder if it would help for him to have a weekly session just to keep things more stable for the time being.  Expensive suggestion i realize but maybe worth it for everyone's sanity in the house?  Also, it would mean he has support for if you do end up making an exit.

My H is in the middle of a 3 week work project that has him gone early am until late evening and it is a huge relief to not have to face him everyday.  That said, I am very anxious of what it will be like when things go back to normal.  I feel like I have to avoid eye contact with him all the time because he's always searching for evidence on my face to confirm that he is unlovable.  Sad thing is that I do still love many parts of him.  I even think he is physically attractive (even though he accuses me of thinking he is ugly, which I correct but he still doesn't believe me.)  It's just the way he treats me that is driving me away.  Sadly he can't understand that.  Cannot separate his behaviour from who he is as a person.  Jeeze this is tough.  Nice to know i'm not the only person in the world going through this.

I have enjoyed reading all the comments on this thread.  I have also learned that I am not alone in my battles, and more so, not as crazy as I started to think I am.  My story is similar to many that have posted.  The co-dependency topic does raise some questions in my mind.  I find that on one hand I feel very co-dependent and almost BPD myself because of the accusations that come back from my W when I try to question her about anything.  On the other hand I think to myself there is no way I have this disorder because I am the stable one (that is relative of course), and the one asking for help, the one that reached out to 2 T's and also is posting here.  I've even shown texts to friends and neighbors showing how W can not answer just a simple question, and always spins it back on me, and then even worse tries to manipulate me by bringing in our kids and using the "you don't care about their feelings" tactic.  (I've asked friends to be as honest as they can.  If it is me then so be it and I will get help.)  Its a crazy mind game that is played on me over and over.  Sunday I almost checked myself into a 72 hour Phsyc hold just to get my head back on straight.  I seriously thought I was 100% to blame for all our issues, for my W's aggression, taking and hiding of my personal belongings without me even knowing, outbursts on children...  (Had I only done this or that she would not be raging, or taking things.) So my question, do you find that the BPD can shift back and forth between partners?  I am convinced that my wife has high functioning BPD, T also said this as well as PTSD and some narcissistic traits. But, I find that I start to exhibit the same traits some times when an argument arises.  It's probably protection, self preservation and lack of education on how to deal with BPD outbursts.  Maybe projection?

It could be that you are both emotionally reactive. But she has fear of abandonment in addition to reactivity. Does that make sense?

The High-Conflict Couple by Alan Fruzetti (https://bpdfamily.com/book-reviews/high-conflict-couple) is helpful when there is a pattern of emotional volatility in the relationship on both sides.

What traits are coming out during arguments?

I would consider yours a "situational" issue.  If you were in a healthy, functional and reasonably normal you'd be just fine.  Sure, we all have minor issues but nothing that couldn't be addressed from within a reasonably normal relationship.

However, this is unhealthy, dysfunctional and seriously abnormal.  And you're being sucked into the abyss of despair and distress.

Have you watched the 1944 movie Gaslight?  A young girl is courted by a man who is intent of making her doubt her own sanity.  She keeps saying she sees the gas lights dimming over and over and he almost convinces her it's her losing her sanity and she needs to be committed to a sanitarium.  At the end of the movie we discover he's a criminal searching for a treasure hidden in her home.

What's being done to you verges on criminality but of course she won't be held accountable nor face a court of justice.  The solution is a tough one to swallow, recognize you have to save yourself, distance yourself from the unhealthy relationship, seek recovery over time and move on with your life

Wow, I'm new here but just had to give a +1 to this entire thread. I feel 1000% better knowing I'm not the only one going through this, and if my participation gives that feeling back to anyone - that's why I posted. It's so so so sad, and my heart goes out to all of you experiencing anything similar (or worse)!