BPDFamily.com

Starting a new thread to address a new chapter w/ STBXW.

Seeking insight re: IHS and the D process while cohabitating...

Topline:
Undiagnosed Covert NPD w/ BPDish traits.
Married ~14 years. 
Three kids, D6, D10, D12.
Diagnosed / under treated or ineffectively treated chronic depression and anxiety her entire adult life.

W had an affair last summer.  Little/no remorse.  Blame shifted to me.  We went through 2 MCs without any real attention on the affair. 

1st MC ended after 4 sessions, W threatened suicide in session and was sectioned and released without a full psych eval.   MC resigned and stated that couples therapy was contra-indicated.  Nonetheless, we attempted a new approach with a 2nd MC a few weeks later, and stuck with it for about 3 months.  W accused me of financial infidelity and raised multiple unresolved traumas associated with me or my family.  I listened and attempted acknowledge, validate.

In parallel, it was clear to me that my W was not reinvesting in the marriage, and that she was primarily concerned with a perceived rejection from AP (narcissist injury).

In Nov, W announced that she was finally over her AP.  Almost simultaneously I discovered that she created an Ashley Madison account and met a rando for a hookup.  This occurred at the same time W expressed anxiety about meeting others socially outside of our "pod" due to Covid.  I busted the Ashley Madison activity (and incurred rage), but buckled down to get through the holidays for the kids.

After the new year, I set my sights on D10 and D6 birthdays in Feb and Mar, while preparing to file for D.

We stopped seeing the 2nd MC in Jan.

In late Feb, I discovered that W was in active contact with her AP from last summer, and this was the last straw for me in terms of trust or lack thereof. I went grey rock, which she perceived as a rejection. 

Over the past week, she sent emails implying that she wanted sex (or wanted me to indicate that I wanted sex), and then I received a letter from her lawyer on Friday stating that she is pursuing D.  I raised this in a separate thread.

We made it through Fri and Sat without much trouble.  Normal routine.  I brought her flowers on my way home on Fri after I received the lawyer's email, and gently said "here's to the next chapter" after I put the kids to bed on Friday night.  Some crying, but nothing hostile or confrontational.

Sat night we took the kids out to dinner.

Sunday she took the kids to her father's house for dinner, I was asked to stay home - no problem.  After bedtime, she confronted me.

- highly confrontational
- concerned about rejection
   - "some part of me wanted you to respond differently"
   - "obviously you don't think this is worth anything"

- there were multiple threats, insults, accusations
   - you're a narcissist
   - you want to paint a scarlet letter on me
   - it won't mean anything in court
   - you won't be able to hide money any more
   - you never stood up for me with your mother or sister
   - you want to turn the kids against me
   - don't talk to my father, mother, or sisters ever again
        - clearly you think I am disgusting
        - how did you move on so quickly, are you seeing someone?

etc.

She came in and out of the living room multiple times, while I remained calm and seated on a couch.  At one point she stood directly in front of me and pointed at me, almost hitting me.  I asked her to step back.

The crescendo might have been when she told me that she wanted her poems returned by sister.  I haven't had direct contact with my sister since 2017, as she was alienated in part by W...  I can ask, but this might be impossible if the poems are lost or if my sister is unresponsive to me (or to my W's request).

I share this last point to illustrate that my W is focused on herself and her things, at a time when we should be thinking of the kids.

Looking forward, my atty will respond this week and I'll find out what's in my W's 1b complaint (at fault D, likely irretrievable breakdown of the marriage). 

In general, I have been somewhat at ease this weekend as I was dreading being the one to file.  I didn't want to hurt my W and trigger her sense of rejection, and I didn't one to be the one to give up, or to hurt the kids.  It was somewhat of a relief that my W filed first.

My concern is about how to get through what could be months of IHS.  If there is a quick agreement, it's possible to get this done in 3-4 months in my state.  But it seems much more likely that my W wants to play the victim, paint me black on a large stage, and will create high conflict re: alimony and custody.

I love our kids.  Of course.  I am devastated and completely gutted about what this will do to them.  They know all is not well, but we don't have open warfare.  Instead, they see W's subtle jabs, frequent irritation, and reactivity.  They often sympathize with her.  They are very quick to soothe her or apologize, and avoid her wrath.  However we have a relatively functional household compared to others here who are dealing with addiction or overt danger.  I know it's just beneath the surface and that could change any time.  I've got security cams going all the time.

I interviewed many attys, and was repeatedly told that the best I can hope for is 50/50.  My W will hate this, and no matter what we ultimately get, she will make it impossible.

I am finally seeing my relationship w/W clearly and I've recognized the various subtle and not-so-subtle forms of abuse I've endured as she alienated my sister and my extended family, drained our savings when she quit her job (now blames me for being financially controlling), her many accusations of infidelity (when ultimately it was her), her lack of empathy, explosive anger, intense sensitivity to criticism (real or perceived...), etc.  Her IC and PsyD don't seem to get it, and our second MC certainly did not.

Looking forward to getting to the other side of this - I finally have conviction.  But I know it's going to be hard.  I've done the reading and the exercises here.  Eggshells, Splitting, etc.   So helpful - this place has been a tremendous resource since I found it last year.

If anyone can comment on IHS or other aspects of the D process, it would be greatly appreciated.

TIA.

When you mentioned she filed in your other post, I kinda wondered if it was intended as a *wake up* call more than the real thing  :(

Did the two of you discuss telling the kids?

Given the way your daughters take care of their mom (reversing the natural order of parent/child), I would be concerned about parental alienation. She may already be shaping the narrative ...

I hope you'll be able to get the girls into therapy throughout this, especially with all of you living in the same home while things work their way through the courts.

@livenlearned - about 11 years ago, she used to threaten to D any time she wasn't happy.  Occasional suicide threats, too.  Even then, I perceived this as a sort of manipulation tactic (if not actual emotional abuse).  I told her then:  Threaten me with D in a casual conversation, and we will D.  The threats stopped, at least for a time.

In any case, I'm not playing defense here.  I'll validate her all day long if it will lead to better outcomes for our kids.  But I am setting boundaries, which is something she isn't accustomed to.

We have not yet discussed how or when to tell the kids.  They will be devastated.  She will certainly find a way to make it my fault, sooner or later.

One of the things she said last night was that I "will not be able to destroy her relationship with the kids" (accusations are confessions) and I "will not be able to sustain my image as father of the year" (revealing her plans).  

I'm horrified.

Today, she told me about a vet appointment on Weds.  I asked how much?  No idea.  I did not respond.  Later, I sent a short email to say, "good news, I get paid Wednesday, we should be able to cover the vet.   Not sure we can improve communication at this point, but why not try?"

Her response: "you just blamed me for our money problems"

Followed by another three emails escalating the argument.  I should have seen this coming.

Sounds like my past.  This is how it developed...

During my months long separation and divorce case, over two years in all, I was stuck with two temp orders defaulted to preference for mother, typical in my area.  She dragged it out as long as she could since it put her in control and virtually sidelined me as alternate weekend dad.

On Trial Day I was greeted with the news she was finally ready to settle.  The Custody Evaluator had recommended Shared Parenting (equal time on a 2-2-3 schedule).  I added only one extra term to settle, that I would become the Residential Parent for School Purposes.  I had  become a member here during our separation and I knew that she'd likely move around some and I didn't want to have to follow her as she moved around.  She desperately begged to avoid that change.  Both lawyers, yes mine too, insisted it didn't mean anything.  But I held firm and that's what was made part of our final decree.

We were in the last few months of kindergarten and her school agreed for him to complete the year there.  Then with about a month left, school notified me that she had created more scenes at school and I had one day to register him at my school.  Left unsaid was that if I wasn't the primary parent for school they'd have been stuck with her and suffered silently.

With conflict continuing, especially at exchanges, after about 2 years I filed Change of Circumstances seeking custody and majority time.  We settled on GAL's middle ground and only got custody.

A couple years more of conflict and I went back for majority time and this time GAL agreed.  The surprise was that despite my testimony and that of the GAL, it was the school's tepid testimony that got response, I got majority time but only during the school year.  Finally, at son's age 12, mother's entitlement balloon deflated a bit and we never went back to court.  My son aged out of the system a year ago.

Did I know back in 2005 that on the last workday of 2013 the court would grant me majority time on top of the custody I had gotten a couple years earlier?  No, I didn't know the future.  But over time I did make progress in increments.  That seemed how my court worked.  And probably yours too.

Here are some words of wisdom...

• Court calls the initial order "temporary" for the duration of the divorce.  Problem is, our cases often take much longer, a year, two years or longer.  (My divorce took nearly two years while my ex had both "temporary" custody and "temporary" majority time.  My lawyer had initially estimated only 7-9 months.)
• Courts generally default to joint custody in final decrees, being reluctant to start out by locking out one parent from decisions.  Though relatively few members here end up getting full custody (unless there are extreme circumstances) it is wise to lay the groundwork from the start, such as at the initial hearing for the temporary order.  Get the best (or "least bad") temp order possible.
• Over time strive to make it evident that you're not the parent obstructing nor sabotaging but that you're seeking practical solutions.  Be aware it may take the court a long time to recognize that.
• Don't expect the court to give you credit when you bend over backwards to show how super fair you are.  Similarly, don't expect the court to be bothered when your stbEx acts out or sabotages your parenting.  Courts don't expect newly separated parents to be on their best behavior during a divorce.  There's a truism I found here and repeated... "The one behaving poorly seldom gets much in the way of consequences and the one behaving well seldom gets much in the way of credit."
• Repeat:  Being generous or overly-fair to your own disadvantage is not helpful, court may not even notice.  Just make sure you are not disrespectful, lose your cool or appear to be punishing your Ex.

It's good that you see this so clearly, EyesUp.

How do you plan to let the kids know?

She is probably going to regress -- to be honest, I think it's hard for any of us to avoid regressing in a divorce. Except BPD regression tends to be a race to the bottom.

It's a high-wire act to hold fast to boundaries, protect yourself and the kids, and somehow not engage in the warfare. I wish I had done better. There were times I was flat out paranoid.

Have you found good resources to help you navigate the alienation? It's likely your daughters are going to become rescuers, and that can turn into triangulation against you.

One of the phrases my stepdaughter's therapist used with her to help offset the alienation was, "you have a right to have a loving relationship with your dad," something she repeated to her mom during active attempts to create a loyalty bind. "Pick him or me" kind of thing.

How long do you anticipate you'll be living together while separating? Has your attorney given you a sense of the timeline?

@ForeverDad, I've added your words of wisdom to a collection of quick references in my journal.  Thank you.

@livenlearned, we have not even started to discuss how or when to discuss with the kids.  Our attys will speak for the first time tomorrow.  As my my high conflict W filed first, I expect that she will have a high conflict atty whose opening position will be to ask for everything, and we will quickly find ourselves at an impasse and escalation.  If we get that far.  My W has the kids en route to my stbxMIL's Friday night, this could be to set the stage for a confrontation while the kids are out of the house at some point Friday night or Saturday morning.  I've got my VAR and home security cams on continuous (she knows about the cams "I told my atty about those cameras" - good luck with that, we've had them for years, and if she thinks I'm the one who is abusive, she should be glad to have them).

My feeling is that we will get through Easter, but she will lose it at some point.

We both know that the best thing for the kids would be to hold off on saying anything until there is a plan - who/what/when/where - where they are concerned.  I just don't know if she can agree to anything, or remain stable while we make the attempt to get there.

She is certainly making every effort to seek support from the kids.  Yesterday she complained that she didn't like her slice of pizza and our oldest dutifully said "you can have mine, momma" about 3x until my W actually said "ok".  Daughters as rescuers?  Triangulation?   That train is rolling.  I'll spend some time on this over the weekend, assuming I'm not facing a false DV just yet.

I have no idea how long the IHS might continue - we're just getting started.  If there is a quick agreement re: D and custody, it could be 90-120 days.  But if there is no agreement, it will be as long as possible (in every meaning of that word), as we cannot afford two homes in our town.

The first wake up call to my W will be when her atty discovers that we cannot afford D, that I am not hiding money, and that any litigation will expose his client's behavior in the public record.  However long it takes to get to that point is the answer.  Sane people might agree to an extended IHS while spouses collaborate to reduce debt and gain new employment (in this, my W).  Not sure she can do it, and of course I am not in favor of leaving the children alone with her. 

At this point I know that she's asked for primary physical and joint legal custody.  Of course I'll counter for 50/50, which is in her best interest while attempting to work FT. 

She's also asked for the house (which she cannot possibly afford), and made no mention of the marital estate (negative net worth).  She will be aghast when she realizes that she's opened a pandora's box that leaves her with no viable position for negotiation, except IHS. 

I stayed put for a long time, in part, because I could not bear to hurt the kids - or her - by making the first move.  Actually discussed it with her in general terms a few times - "we cannot afford two houses" and "we may need to consider bankruptcy" etc.

She takes no responsibility for her affair or for our finances, which tanked when she quit her job but made zero change to spending habits for two years.  Here we are.

I am gutted for the kids, but also seeing clearly that I need to get them out of this - at almost any cost...

I have decent emotional support from my family, and I'm starting to open up with select friends.  One of my oldest, closest friends reminded me that she attempted to warn me about my W some ~20 years ago.  Ouch.

High on the agenda is lining up counseling for the kids, which I am trying to do collaboratively with my W so that she will not undermine or reject a counselor.

In the meantime, I'm consuming as much literature as possible on D and subsequent co-parenting / parallel parenting with a covert NPD.

I know there's a lot going on right now.

Couple of thoughts to add to your long list of thoughts:


OK, so, it sounds like in your state, there's a separation between physical custody and legal custody. When you suggest countering with 50/50, I'm assuming you mean countering her physical custody offer with yours? Because it sounds like both of you are pitching equal legal custody?

Consider giving yourself some space to negotiate backward from. If she comes at it with "90/10 with Mom" and you try to be reasonable with "how about 50/50 for both of us", where can you negotiate from there, except to... more time with Mom? Right? You can't have her say 90% with her, and you say 50% both of us, and then go to 75% with you.

I can't see a downside to starting out suggesting WAY more than you "feel" is "fair". Feelings and fairness in the adult negotiations aren't the best for your kids. Go full papa bear and, because you're the reasonable one, you have space to walk back to the middle a bit if needed. Don't sell yourself short. I mean, what's she going to do if she doesn't like your offer... rage? alienate? anything she hasn't already done? Do you get what I'm getting at?

I have to wrap this up but just know that by starting out assertive/strong, it's better for your kids.

Thanks, @kells76


Yup, that's pretty much how I approach negotiation in general.

That said, my atty has advocated nothing less than being reasonable. 

She has advised that the court generally wants 50/50 unless there is a clear history of physical violence, drug use, or child endangerment.  People who aim for more than 50/50 are often viewed as unreasonable in the current climate.  My wife's affair and cancelled Section 12 and 911 call will likely be viewed as circumstantial, inconclusive, and old news - no longer urgent.

Instead, my atty advises aiming for a reasonable position and holding on tight.

With no prior experience in D litigation, I'm absorbing as much as I can.  I will try to find out more about my W's atty and his approach - I assume from the complaint that my high conflict W selected the guy who agreed to take on her case with some confidence - even though she's starting from a difficult position re: Section 12/911 call/admitted affair/history of depression and anxiety/etc.

She probably didn't offer this up.

I'm wondering if a deposition might be a good tactic for your case? It was helpful in mine. I think the opposing L realized in our deposition that his client wasn't credible, to put it mildly. Whereas I was organized, reasonable, had boat loads of evidence, and was entirely credible. For that reason, the lawyer realized going to court wasn't in his client's best interest and he, the lawyer, became motivated to settle.

It doesn't really matter to an L whether his client is good/bad, but it does seem to matter when it comes to unstable, not credible, etc.

You might find some leverage there, while also giving your wife an opportunity to get some narcissistic supply. My ex seemed to love being deposed even though it exposed his vulnerabilities, which he didn't appear to recognize.

For other reasons, we were not able to avoid court, but your wife may be less narcissistic than mine, who was also a former trial attorney. He loved the courtroom  :(

OK, that helps me understand.

Might be worth your time to do a full "drill" or walkthrough with your L of how that will play out and how to use that to your advantage.

One possible advantage would be: your W pitches a fit for 90/10 (with her), you counter "50/50". She accuses you of X, Y, and Z, you counter with "50/50". She suggests you are a monster and says 95/15, you counter with "50/50". So, it could show that you are consistent and committed, and not reacting to her stuff.

One possible disadvantage would be: your W suggests 90/10, you counter "50/50". She nudges it to 80/20, you counter with "50/50". She says 60/40 is her last offer and what the judge will give you anyway, you counter with "50/50". It could hint that you are unwilling to negotiate (and, perhaps, the unreasonable one?).

That second scenario would be my worry, so run this stuff past your L to get a better "situation room" simulation of how sticking to your guns will "read" to the judge/court. I'd be asking "OK, so, in this county, I shouldn't come out swinging with 90/10 with Dad, they won't like that, but I want some negotiating room, so can I lead with 60/40 and look like a reasonable, solutions-focused coparent?"

Also ask your L if it is then to your W's disadvantage if she opens with "90/10 with Mom" if courts in your area frown on that (absent abuse etc).

Another problem we face is that joint custody presumes the parents can negotiate the big issues such as medical, school, religious instruction, etc.  Yeah, she can't negotiate as a reasonable person would.  So work with your lawyer on how to address this.  Otherwise soon after the final decree some issue will arise, she will obstruct and you'll have to return to court (as I did) to get an answer months later.

Discuss with your lawyer various matters to address predictable issues that will arise sooner or later...

Could you seek to be the Parent Responsible for school matters, including which schools are chosen?  (Some states call it Residential Parent for School Purposes.  If I hadn't managed to get that authority I would have had to follow my ex as she moved around.  I've never moved for over 20 years and she's had at least 5 moves, once even to another county.)

Since joint legal custody is a probable outcome, could you obtain Decision Making or Tie Breaker status for the major issues?  It's the next best thing to full custody, the benefit is that it's you who ends up getting your way in a reasonable time frame and it's not you who has to wait powerless for months on a backlogged court system.

Edit:  It just occurred to me that you don't have even a temp order yet.  Make sure your lawyer understands that in our sort of cases the divorce process lingers for a year, sometimes two years.  That means that the typical "temporary" order persists much longer than usual.  So inequities mean you get stuck for far longer than normal.  You need to brainstorm with your lawyer on how to get the "least bad" so-called temporary order possible.

And another heads-up... My temp order hearing was about a half hour.  No time for listing all issues or extensive history.  Go in with a short list of the more important issues and practical proposals/solutions for the supposedly short term "temporary" order.  You may have time for more than the basics, but be prepared to everything in priority order.

And my court was quick to default to mother, despite her facing a Threat of DV case in another court.  So while I walked OUT of a divorce with a final decree of joint custody, the temp order as we started going INTO the divorce gifted her to have temporary (full) custody and temporary parenting while I got my county's typical alternate weekends and no voice with school, doctors and other agencies.  For two years.

@ForeverDad, I gather that my W's complaint asks for primary physical and joint legal custody.  I have not yet been served.

Yesterday she arrived home from her parttime job and was immediately overwhelmed.  "I can't work and make dinner for the kids" - of course I had already offered to make dinner (she insisted she would do it), and there was zero urgency because Friday is a public holiday, no big deal if we eat :15 or :30 minutes later on Thursday.  "Maybe I'll ask to leave at 4pm going forward" - impossible because she closes the shop at 5.  etc.

My point is:  I have no idea how she expects to manage primary physical custody.  I presently do pickup for our youngest 3 days a week, on the days she works.  I WFH as standard practice.

Even when our youngest ages into elementary school with aftercare, schedule will not change much.  My W is facing a situation in which she may be ordered to work fulltime - the schedule is not going to get easier.  As the entire world shifted to WFH, she has consistently complained that she cannot find a job because she won't be able to "commute 2 hours into the city" (a, we live about 60 mins from downtown during rush hour, and b, there are literally a million jobs that don't require going into the city or even leaving the house).

My atty has proposed 50/50 across the board, physical and legal, which I gather is preferred by the court.  However since my W has already filed for primary custody, she may need to show how she intends to make that work - as there will be implications for alimony and child support.  

In regard to temp orders - you have my full attention.  I should learn more today - our attys will speak for the first time later this morning.  Thanks for this.

Another gem from last night:  "are you going to try to paint me as an unfit mother?"  I responded by saying that I appreciated the note last week that indicated she wanted this to amicable and fair, and that I hope that's how we'll proceed.  She seemed to calm down.

Then went out for a mani pedi, which suggests she either has a date - or maybe is just getting ready for Easter - or maybe she just wants to keep up appearances.  $100 for a mani pedi a week after filing...  she makes $15/hr, part time.  

She has no idea what she's done or is doing.

Good point from FD on the temporary order. That one blind-sided me, too.

No idea why they call it a temporary order when essentially the judge rubber stamps into a permanent order whatever existed previously as status quo. If you agree to x in mediation, that essentially pulls rank on anything the judge rules because courts prefer parents to come to an agreement on their own. It might be different where you live, and IHS could scramble things a bit, but it's a good reminder that temporary = permanent for a lot of us.

Also, ... not sure if this is a covert narcissism thing but after our temp order was put in place (60/40 or EOW + 1 night) it became more like 75/25 in practice. Parenting is hard and when it interfered with n/BPDx's other interests he dropped custodial time and didn't try to swap. Keep track of that stuff just in case you end up having to modify the court order at some point because that can show a new status quo.

Thanks, both.

Our attys spoke for the first time yesterday, but I have no info. My atty sent a short note saying the meeting went well and was productive, and she will provide notes in a few days. 

In the meantime, my W went out last night and unplugged the security cam in the mudroom at some point after she came in.

I'll be sure to address temp orders when I speak with my atty this week.  As well as the camera.

Well, today has been challenging.

W confronted me about the cams "if you cared about me, you would do what I want" and "why do you always have to win?" etc.

I asked why she would want less security for our home, our kids, or for ourselves at this point in time, which she dismissed "we have two dogs and live in a place with low crime"

The conversation went downhill.  "why are you here?  you can work from anywhere?  why don't you go stay with your mother?" etc.

I think this conversation ended without a crisis precisely because it occurred in a room with a camera...

I fear that my atty may not be on point, and that my W is going to create a crisis in the coming days.  Bad enough that this occurred the day before Easter.

I need to make a decision about whether or not to accompany my kids to my MIL's house tomorrow.   I'll make breakfast for the kids tomorrow (always do), and then there will be an egg hunt around the yard.   Later, we're supposed to go to my MIL's.   It was originally agreed that I would join, so as not to communicate a problem to the kids before we have an agreement / plan in place re: how/what/when/where to share with them...  but now it feels like a highly conflicted situation where my MIL is likely funding my W's atty, and other members of her family will also be present.   

On the other hand, I think I have a right to spend the day with my kids.

At least I have the morning, having difficulty seeing the best choice for the afternoon.

W's next window to attack me will be Weds when all the kids are out of the house for part of the day.

Even if she rips the cameras out, I have a VAR going pretty much all the time.

This IHS thing is not going to last. I only have short term emergency options, real estate is crazy right now - there is nothing available anywhere nearby - and finances are beyond tight anyway...  so much for "amicable" when my W continues to attack me verbally, and then blames me for it!

Here's how it played out:

- 3/27 W asked me join for Easter @ MIL's, specifically to maintain status quo w/kids
- 4/3 PM after I'm asleep, W emailed to confirm the plan
- 4/4 AM I responded to email from W, then W reversed her position - counter to her 3/27 request.  W then shifts blame to her mother "I'm not sure my mother will allow you to join"

After the egg hunt @ home w/kids, I told them I wasn't feeling well and didn't want to get anyone else sick. 

It's hard to envision how we'll get through another week or two like this.  I don't expect or even want to do everything as we've done in the past.   I'm not angling for 100% status quo, although I would prefer to agree to a plan before we communicate with the kids.   

And that's my concern - that it is impossible to agree to anything, and expect my W to stick to the agreement - even when I agree to her requests.

It is starting to feel like the best defense is going to be a strong offense - getting out in front of her, before she make false claims, etc.

The only thing that ended up working for me was to stick to boundaries at all costs.

Even when it inconvenienced me.

Especially when it inconvenienced me.

Even when my son was inconvenienced.

Especially when he was inconvenienced.

That meant sometimes saying no to fun things because it violated a boundary. With BPD, an inch = 10,000 miles.

You will be called rigid, power hungry, controlling, crazy, mean, abusive, unreasonable.

You have to be the emotional leader who stays firmly planted on the ground while your wife gets on her emotional roller coaster and insists everyone else get on too.

The best approach is to do this feet planting without reactivity. It's just the way it is.

It's predictably unpredictable so you know the roller coaster is going to be a constant.

Be really careful about being trustworthy as you go through this. Saying you are sick instead of, "I'm going to sit this one out" will matter to kids when they get sucked into the black/white, win/lose, right/wrong binary that gets magnified by BPD + adversarial divorce thinking.

BPD parents tend to overshare adult stuff which makes kids believe they are more adult than they are, and they can confuse harsh truth with trust. You don't want to help that narrative with white lies if you can help it.

I'll be curious whether your wife tells the kids before you get a unified front into place.

A brief update.

Our attys spoke on Friday, my W connected with hers on Monday, she stayed out to take the call while I prepared dinner for our kids - glad to do it!

We had a great dinner, the two younger ones took a bath together, were singing in the tub when my W came in...  in a state of rage.

I won't speculate re: what expectations her atty attempted to set, however my W was horrified to learn that she will not get everything she asked for, which is everything (house, alimony, support).

She managed to barely hold it together (not without frightening the oldest, who could not understand why W was so angry - I assured her, discretely, quietly, it was not her fault) until after the kids were asleep.  Then I received a tirade:

You're evil
You lie about everything
I wish I never met you
You don't love me, never loved me
You want to claim I'm an unfit mother
You want me to kill myself
etc.

I sat still and listened, literally zero response, until that last comment, when I said "please stop" - it continued for 10 minutes.

I debriefed with my atty the following day, apparently my W did not have any idea that I might not gladly meet her request for primary custody, or that she might be expected to work by the court (if it goes that far).  She also was not entirely forthcoming with her atty re: certain specifics re: money, 911 calls, or the details of her affairs.  

So she filed with little meaningful counsel, and now blames me (of course) for her situation because my atty quickly called attention to issues she was hoping would simply not come up.

It's like she expected I would meet all her demands - that is her definition of "amicable" - and her atty never advised her that her demands were merely an opening position, and would likely not be attainable.

The kicker is that she stated she will not mediate because I am a narcissist and a bully and emotionally abusive.

I have not responded to her, other than to continue to take care of the kids, continue to make her coffee in the AM each day, and to document everything I can in email (BIFF all the way).

When I originally heard that she wanted the house, I assumed that one of her parents would step in to help - nope, she thought I would simply give her the house.  That's not possible, the house will need to be sold to resolve debt, so we will need to find two new houses.

I've been telling her for months that we cannot afford two new houses in our current town...  

No idea how any of this will play out, other than "not quickly or easily".

And I haven't been served yet.

I suspect that the insight re: how she will find a way to communicate with the kids independently, without me, is 100% accurate.

I'm reminded of the line in the movie "Speed":  Q: what's going to stop this elevator from falling? A:  The basement.

How do you feel about talking to them before they hear it from their mom?

I highly recommend you get the kids in therapy ASAP.  Divorce is hard.  Having a parent with a personality  disorder is also hard.  A therapist can help with both.

Regardless of when they start therapy, it is likely that your wife will, at some point, paint the therapist black and be insistent that the therapist is actually trying to alienate the kids from her, etc.  This is good documentation to have so that you can request that you have sole authority over the kids' mental health providers.

I think if I were in your shoes, I would ask wife to meet and tell the kids about the pending divorce ASAP.  I know you wanted to wait until there was a plan, but the current plan is good enough - "mom and dad will still both live here while we make other plans." Position therapy as "to help them with this transition".

I might also encourage your lawyer to push things forward more quickly.  Go ahead and counterfile now, asking for primary custody for yourself (basically the opposite of what she filed for).

Do you have a good system set up to document how much time you spend caregiving versus your wife?

I just read your other thread for the background.

Your W is obviously primed to start using your girls as pawns.   Counseling will help them.

It will also help you.  One of the hardest things for my H and I to learn was to focus on what SD needed and not what was needed to placate uBPDmom.  H was conditioned in their marriage to always defuse her moods.  I learned that from him 'because it's best for SD if her mom is stable'. SD had been trained the same way - bend over backwards to make sure that mom is okay.  From what you've said, your daughters are already there.

In hindsight I can see just how damaging that was for SD.

A few years ago we decided to switch focus solely to SD's needs.  This led to two years of dysregulation from mom, resulting in two inpatient psychiatric stays.  There was also a lot of documented emotional abuse thrown at H, at me, and especially at SD, as well as lots of documentation of mom interfering with SD's therapist.  This documentation was invaluable for H to go from 50-50 to primary 60/40 to primary 85/15 (and now things are stable!).

It is extremely likely that your wife is going to dysregulate badly at some point.  As LnL told you, natural consequences are okay.  That means you remove the girls from her presence while she's ranting.  It means you document the bad behavior and instability, and you use this as leverage to get as much custody as you can.  Your goal should always be what's best for the kids long-term.  Short-term placating of mom is usually not that.

Be very alert in the upcoming days and weeks.  It has been noted that if there are allegations or other more extreme conflict, it's most likely to happen in the initial part of the separation or divorce process.  In other words, she may contrive to frame you as behaving worse than her.  Be aware.  Beware.

Despite her mental health history, the court may choose to overlook much of it.  Fortunately, a lot of it is documented.  What you can't afford is to "Gift Away" any of the advantages you have now as the reasonably normal parent.  You likely are inclined to be overly fair as many of us here naturally are.  But being a reasonably normal person in a tough divorce case as most of ours are, you can't risk being overly fair or overly generous.  At least, not until you know what you walk out with at the end of the divorce.  The old saying, gift an inch, a mile gets snatched.

Therefore, don't let her ever wear your patience thin and goad you into any sort of outburst or comments how  :cursing: she is or whatever.  This is crucial, even if no one notices, you have to always behave as angelic as possible, as though the court were monitoring you 24/7 and looking over your shoulder.  I'm not saying it will happen this way but... court may grant her many missteps and yet call you out one the one single misstep you make.  Not fair but that's reality.

The sooner you can get counseling for your children, the better, even if they're young.  Later she may decide to oppose it and then you'd have to get the court, which likes counseling but is often reluctant to make big changes, to order it.  (My then-stbEx started my son in counseling before he was 4 years old.  I didn't find out about it for months because in the quickie temp order she had "custody" and so informing me was not required.  We lived in temp orders for two years before the divorce was final.  I quickly found out that she was using counseling to badmouth me as an abuser.  Believe me, I was shocked to find out I was initially painted as "a risk to my child or others".)

You really don't want your stbEx to pick and choose a counselor she likes.  Too big a risk of her picking a compliant, gullible or inexperienced counselor.  Look at it the way courts do...  courts like counseling.  But they also typically want both parents to participate in the selections.  How to strategize?  You pick out beforehand a short list of qualified and experienced counselors who can deal with a controlling or entitled parent.  Then let her pick from your vetted short list.  That way court is satisfied both parents are involved and you are more confident counseling will be helpful for the kids.

@livenlearned:  I don't feel good about it.  Doing so would definitively position me as the one who is controlling and willing to work solely in my self interest.  If she does it, and I expect she may, then it's on her.  My calculus is: If I try to do the right thing there is a chance it will happen, if I don't aim for the right thing, there is zero chance it will happen. 

@worriedstepmom:  Working on counseling, actively, with input from some known sources, and in parallel with my W.  I'm speaking with my atty re: counterfiling, among other things,  tomorrow.  Documentation:  I've been keeping four sets of records...
1) journal - timestamped - evernote:  concise narrative of key events.  I've been keeping a daily record since last year, but the journal itself goes back to 2015, and includes references to some events in 2011
2) log - excel sheet:  monthly record of all activities with the kids - this goes back to last June
3) some video from our IP cameras (now removed as of yesterday)
4) some audio.  I live in a 2-way consent state, but I'm recording

I think you are 100% correct re: dysregulation.  Could be any time.

@ForeverDad.  I hear you, and this is what I fear.  With my W, accusations are confessions and she has already accused me of doing or preparing to do the worst - so I know it's on her agenda.  W's atty told my atty that he strongly advised my W against making any false DV or other claims.  I doubt that she will take good advice.  One thing I've done is to stay close to the embedded SW in our local PD - I know the calls are logged.  I will continue to keep her apprised of the situation and ask for her advice.

Thanks, all.

It really is super helpful to have a sounding board here.  I keep reminding myself to breathe.  Coming here helps.   

Wait, did her lawyer actually say he advised her against making "false" claims?  That would seem to waive attorney-client privilege for this matter (no privilege if there is conspiracy to break the law) and make him a potential witness for you if she does make one of these claims.

Be careful, and good luck.  It sounds like you are on top of things.

@worriedstepmom, I'll look into this further.  At the moment, I would guess that it's hearsay / deniable.  The comment was between our attys, relayed to me by my atty.  Not sure if what was relayed was true, or precisely conveyed, etc. I would not be surprised if my W fires her atty or vice versa at some point. We're just getting started, and they are all over the place.

If anyone has suggestions re: best ways / additional ways to document, input is welcome...

Understood. It's honorable that you have a code.

The goal posts can move drastically when parental alienation kicks in.

The skills for learning how to counter it are not intuitive and must be learned, and sometimes the choices to offset alienation can feel like code violations.

Whether you tell the kids or not isn't what this is about ... it's more about gearing up for the shadow battle of alienation. A lot of us focus on the legal battle not realizing that there's another one and it's just as high stakes.

@livenlearned...  I hear you.  This is a chess board, and the opponent is playing with advanced chaos theory, no question.

Can you elaborate re: preemptive anti alienation tactics? 

Is there a version of this that doesn't essentially equate to reverse alienation?

According to my atty, my W is already seeding her atty with ideas re: my limitations as a parent, e.g., comments re: "poor parenting skills" - my atty countered with the fact that I provide meals, baths, storytime, etc., on a daily basis. 

From what I can see at this point, this vector leads to a GAL or some other evaluation, along with whatever shadow tactics might occur in the background.

Many of our divorce cases include an in-depth Custody Evaluation which goes far beyond the cursory Psych Evaluation.  They're expensive and you need to be sure you get a reputable and experienced evaluator respected by the court.  Hiring "just anyone" is a recipe for potential disaster since a CE can (virtually) make or break a case.

Yes, and.

So much chaos that is unnecessary, but as FD often writes, there is this predictably unpredictable and consistently inconsistent aspect that you can kind of jujitsu, using your opponent's energy. I cringe at the opponent terminology...it's hard to avoid, but maybe thinking of it like a martial art, which Childress does, hits closer to the truth.



It's helpful to understand how our own qualities can make things harder for our kids, often in ways we don't fully grasp at the outset of a high conflict divorce. The chapter on BPD spouses (specifically, "Fairy Tale Fathers") in Lawson's book "Understanding the BPD Mother" describes different types or traits that can make us feel inscrutable in one way, while at the same time leaving our kids exposed to harm from the BPD parent.


Reverse alienation isn't really a thing when you're a normal-range parent who puts the kids first.

Most parents here are afraid of putting their kids in the middle or bad-mouthing the other parent. With alienation, though, the kids are already in the middle. And to be blunt about it, the middle position is child abuse. If the normal-range parent doesn't figure out strategies that address the middle position, we end up not protecting our kids.

It's kind of like saying "I don't want my kids to get wet" when mom already has them in the deep end.

Whether we like it or not, the kids are in the water.

Without specific skills to address the alienation maneuvers, it may seem like your only recourse is to bad-mouth the other parent. Fortunately, there are all kinds of tactics that will help you not just offset the alienation but also give your kids skills to become emotionally resilient.

Divorce Poison by Warshak is probably the most tactical book, although it can kind of light up your amygdala so just know that going in. Not all BPD parents will be as extreme as some of the stuff he describes. It's more about figuring out which forms of alienation are happening and looking at his suggested responses so you have skills at your disposal when you start to see patterns. Bill Eddy's Don't Alienate the Kids is an excellent companion and for me, it even helped me get through the divorce process. I was so jacked on anxiety and started to slide into the kind of fear-based thinking that plagues pwBPD. Not good for kids to have two parents on tilt. Eddy focuses on moderate behavior, managed emotions, and flexible thinking, and modeling that for the kids.


The most trying shadow tactic may be obstruction and stonewalling. If that happens, the best thing is to start looking for solutions that close loopholes and have natural, reasonable consequences for non-compliance. Looking for leverage can also help move things forward, too. 

My W wants to tell our oldest.  She put this in an email.

At this point, we have no plan, no agreement, no timeline.

I responded that I feel the best thing to do is to line up resources for the kids, make sure they are acquainted and comfortable, and have some information we can share about what happens next, and then to tell them together.   

My W wrote back and said "I've spoken with experts / I don't agree"

Which leaves me to consider how to either apply leverage to this issue, or risk that she will take unilateral action.

I know one of the child psych experts she's consulted, I can reach out directly.  I'll need to figure out how to broach concerns without making accusations or coming off as paranoid.

I have no doubt that my W is motivated to tell the kids in order to parentify the oldest, and to try to win sympathy / alienate.

She literally put in writing:  "it is very difficult for me to think about things until I know I won’t be homeless and/or have you take my kids away from me" - keep in mind, she filed for D. 

Her complaint calls for majority physical custody/joint legal custody (my state likes 50/50 for both), and the conveyance of the home.  However I have no idea what her plans might be - where to live when/if the home is sold, or how she will afford anything as she has not really worked in almost 3 years - no matter what settlement/agreement might be achieved.  We cannot afford two homes in our current town unless she plans to work.

In parallel, I'm looking for resources for the kids.  No one is available - these days, lining up resources is like trying to book a table at the cool new restaurant...

Going to re-read some Warshak now, thanks.

"Help me understand xyz" is one way to thread that needle.

"What's this going to be like for them? What can I do to make this easier for them? What should I be doing or saying?" These kinds of questions will put a question mark in the psychologist's mind about whether you're the monster mom described you to be, if/when she did that during their conversation.

Jujitsu parenting by Craig Childress (https://drcachildress.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Ju-jitsu-Parenting-Fighting-Back-from-the-Down-Position-Childress-2013.pdf) is also really helpful when you're talking to third-party professionals. He's describing the deep end of alienation which may be more severe than what's happening now in your relationship but the essence of what he's saying can be applied even when things are starting to heat up.

There's a better than average chance your wife has already described you as controlling/abusive/horrible so you'll be in the one-down position before you even pick up the phone. It may not be at this level yet but it's coming through in your wife's comments to you that she's developing ways to avoid responsibility that simultaneously hurt your girls, and your relationship with them.


Does the complaint say why 50/50 isn't workable? Apologies if I missed that above.


In most states, the court will impute incomes. Meaning, if she has an MBA, then mama better be dusting off that resume  *)

No one wants to go from being a homeowner to being a renter, but that's how it goes with a lot of divorces.

There's a financial calculator somewhere on the site that says it takes people an average 4 years to financially recover from divorce, and 8 years to recover from a high-conflict divorce.

If you're the financially prudent partner, it may take you somewhere between 4 to 8 years. Since she was driving most of the spending, you'll most likely come out better in the long term even though the short term can look pretty gruesome.

I think you should go ahead and tell the kids together.  Soon.

You can keep working to line up resources for them - counseling, support groups, whatever you think they may need.

And be prepared that once the kids know (and, again, she is going to tell oldest soon regardless of your wishes), you'll need to be a very vigilant parent because it will likely get nasty.

Briefly, today was my oldest daughter's final day of at-home school, after next week she will back in-person full time.  I ordered tacos from a local place to celebrate.  First and only time I've done anything like this since the pandemic began.

W was out of the house, as usual.  With limited exceptions, I've made lunch throughout.

D told W about the lunch, W sent a txt:  "just need to say, while I skip meals you have no problem ordering takeout for you and D.  Noted.  But I guess that was your plan all along."

Even now, in the moment, I am jammed by this - no idea how to respond to this sort of passive aggressive communication.

Just ignore?   I'm ignoring a lot these days.  Grey rock.

Thanks for following along.

Ignore. She's not in a place to hear anything. You did good for your kids!

Good to hear your D will be back in school -- time away from your W will be good for D.

I agree with kells76.

No point in rewarding passive aggression with engagement.

If she brings it up later in person, maybe try something like "Huh. I can see your point."

Then don't engage beyond that.

Shrugging it off while having eye contact is also a way to shut down the fight she wants to have.

The appearance of agreeing with someone who wants to be arguing with you can be disarming.

The interesting thing about your wife's BPD traits is that she seems somewhat reigned in by reason. She does not appear to become severely dysregulated when she's sweating the small stuff. That seems to be reserved for what she might perceive as public exposure.

Thanks, Kells.  2/3 kids have been mostly with me while at home, so it's bittersweet - although I am hugely relieved that things are returning to normal - where school is concerned - for the kids. 

On the other hand, I'm mindful that they only have ~2 months until school is out for summer, and we've only confirmed ~2 weeks of camp for the older two.  The youngest will continue at the same place she attended PreK and then remote K this year - familiar place, with friends, so 1/3 kids is covered.  I'm interviewing a potential family counselor for the kids today.

 |iiii  |iiii  |iiii

Good idea to schedule summertime activities for the kids, given that things will be getting tense at home. Can you remind me -- are there family members/cousins/grandparents that your kids like spending time with, in your area? Setting up fun/safe places ahead of time for the kids to go might help you feel more secure as you move forward.

Very perceptive - thank you.  My IC has speculated that my W will dysregulate when she learns that she cannot get everything she wants in D.  In the meantime, she is generally functional - but barely contains her emotions when the slightest hint of criticism or rejection, real or perceived, is present.

This morning our middle daughter asked me to pack mac and cheese in her lunch because I made dinner last night and she knew we had leftovers.  My W usually makes the lunches.  I told my W what happened, that I added the M&C to the lunch.  Her response was not "thanks, got it" or anything you might expect from a non, but an instant conflict.  

Yet I didn't want to risk not telling her, and having her find the container later when D returns from school and having a larger response due to the surprise.

The bigger issues at the moment are related to the game of telephone between our attys.

My W has concluded that I view her as an "unfit mother" with "mental problems" - and claims that this is exactly what I've reported to my atty, who in turn conveyed these comments to her atty.  Of course I've taken pains to avoid this sort of language, yet here we are.  I can only speculate that my W's atty said something my W didn't like which is now attributed to me.  Of course there are some counter arguments for 50/50 custody, as well as potential challenges for my W to have majority custody - I suspect that my W's atty shared these challenges, which my W perceived as actual claims or counter claims.  So now she's convinced that will not participate in a good faith process to reach an amicable settlement.

My atty is catching on fast, "it seems like your W considers getting anything less than 100% of her request as an insult if not an act of hostility" - pretty much!

Prior comments re: jiu-jitsu - and avoiding the reasonable position from a negotiating POV are very well taken here.

Mostly on my W's side...   However I am working on this.

It could be as simple as "he wants 50/50" which she hears as "because you are unfit" to get the majority custody she feels entitled to.

Not that understanding why necessarily helps, but she's really in a pit of EVERYTHING getting interpreted through her lenses as "I'm an unfit mother".

Strategically, you can use that to your advantage in the divorce process.

This is longer term thinking, but consider brainstorming with your L ways to "package" what you know is best for the kids, in a wrapper that plays into her wanting to feel like a competent mother. Reach goal: package 50/50 in a way that her agreeing to it makes her feel both like she's winning and you're losing, and that she is amazing and competent. Tricky, not impossible.

I get it.  She was using the "unfit" language long before the D was filed when expressing concerns/accusations to me (i.e, "you think I'm an unfit mother!"), it's not clear to me where this comes from - it did not originate with me.

That said, I suspect that my atty has gone a step further and already shared some information that my W did not provide to her atty (and which he failed to explore), e.g., history of depression, anxiety, 2 recent 911 calls, and potentially aspects of her behavior around her affair - which would not effect D, but could potentially have some influence re: custody.

I suspect that my W's atty was interested to learn about this from my atty, instead of from his client.

In addition, I don't have clear details, however there is anecdotal evidence that my W is developing claims re: emotional abuse, and that she believes that I'm a narcissist (of course).  

Worth noting that while she has stated that she needs majority custody (still hasn't stated why), she currently depends on me to do pickup 3 days per week for our youngest so she can work part time, and to watch our youngest on Saturdays when the older 2 attend dance.  I cherish this time, it's not a compromise in any way for me - just part of sharing parenting responsibility. She has also proposed splitting time in the house while D is pending, in which we each stay elsewhere 2-3 nights/week.  Why would she do this or propose this if she was genuinely concerned for the kids safety?  These are just a few of the contradictions in her recent/current behavior.

My IC commented that it's almost as if my W expected that with filing, I would suddenly disappear and she would instantly have all necessary resources to manage the kids independently.  Instead, she found out that I already have an atty, and that the process is not quick or easy, and that she likely won't get everything she asked for.  Yesterday, my W was surprised to learn that she will not be able to unilaterally select counselors for the kids.

Not yet clear if her atty fails to explain any of this, or if she fails to hear what she doesn't want to hear (which has often been the case in our relationship).

This is Grade A USDA Prime insight / advice. 
Many thanks.

Document, document, document. PRIVATE Google calendar/Google spreadsheet, etc, if you aren't already.

She may say all kinds of things, like how "in reality, she flies on magical wings to carry the kids around town 24/7, and you run away from the kids and never do anything for them, and they know you are an evil ogre". She will say whatever she wants, and she will likely not have documentation to back it up.


Depending on if she hangs on to this idea or lets it go... if it comes up in mediation or any kind of legal setting, consider "agreeing" with part of it: "EyesUpWife is welcome to stay elsewhere as often as she likes. I do not control where EyesUpWife stays. I will remain at the house with the children regardless".


Carbon copy of DH's ex. Back when they met F2F to discuss scheduling, they worked out a new schedule, then she told him she was afraid of him abusing the kids. I know you get this -- anyone without BPD experience would not believe it.

Document, document, document.

"In a filing dated 4/2/2021, EyesUpWife demanded 100% custody, stating I was an unfit parent. On 4/13/2021 in a text message at 11:00 a.m., EyesUpWife asked me to stay at home with D#1 and D#2 so she could pick up D#3. I cared for D1 and D2 at home for 3 hours."

It is going to be hard, and sad. Yet the more you can stay 5 steps ahead, the better off the kids will be.

Leverage what you know about your W's core desires (image? competence? superiority?) to get done whatever needs to get done for the kids (getting a counselor). I.e., you select 3 counselors you've vetted, put their names on a list, and let W pick one "whoever she can tell has the insight that W knows the kids need". Some phrasing that plays into your W's emotional needs. Again, sad but true, it's packaging stuff so she feels like she is on top and winning, but the kids get help.

Oh my goodness, I laughed at your mac and cheese story.  SD's mom once called and yelled at me because I packed SD a lunch for school on a night she was with us.  SD's mom told me I was "stealing her daughter one peanut butter sandwich at a time". 

I hung up on her.  I can make as many sandwiches as I want at my home.

SD's mom is TERRIFIED of losing SD.  She has been convinced since their divorce 12 years ago that H was plotting to take SD away from her and "remother" her. She just *knows* that if she appears before a judge he will take SD away forever (the reasons why change - because I have a good job, because I'm a good mom, because H has brainwashed them, because judges don't like mental illness, etc).

For the first few years, I was able to use this.  SD's mom didn't want to allow SD to do x?  All it took was a very sappy text from me about how much SD loved X, and surely mom wanted to do what was best for SD and allow her to participate?

Over time,  SD's mom began reading *any* question or suggestion about SD as a sign that we think she is an unfit mom.  This caused her to overreact in very large and creative ways and is the direct reason why H now has primary custody.  ("Do you think SD should have allergy testing" resulted in mom calling the domestic violence hotline and scaring the pants off SD)

I will guarantee that your children are already being trained that it is their job to reassure mom that she isn't a bad mom.  SD honestly believed that it was her job to calm mom down if mom thought she unfit and if she couldn't do it, mom would die.  We've had primary custody for years now and those statements have stopped, yet SD melted down the other day because I jokingly referred to myself as a bad mom.  It is a major trigger for her.

This is a major and important weakness in your wife and can be used for good (getting her to agree to stuff) and [necessary] evil (triggering a meltdown in front of the court/lawyers).

Your documentation will be critical.  "<date> I informed W I made D mac and cheese.  Wife yelled and screamed for X minutes". 

Supporting your kids will also be critical so they don't turn into mom's caretakers.

There's a saying, "The walls have ears."  The children may already know more than you realize.

Some members have shared that their children, once told of the upcoming divorce, said they wished the parents had separated sooner.  Don't be surprised if one of more of your children says something like that.  Of course, the responses could reflect whether there has been manipulation and influencing going on.

A concern here is that children are inclined to internalize and it may be a long time before you hear that they feel inside it's their fault.  So make sure they are informed (and repeated often enough) that absolutely nothing is their fault.  Yet another good reason to have empathetic and trained counselors.  By the way, the children should not get counseling from your counselor or spouse's therapist, if any.  Yes, the counselors can communicate amongst themselves, but kids get their own sessions.  A parent sitting in all the time can limit results.

Thanks, all.

@FD, you are 100% correct about the walls, and I'm sure the kids know something is up.

I did pickups yesterday, it was raining, W responded by saying "I should quit my (part time) job so that I can do pickups", and then addressing the kids at dinner:  "when I was in school, I walked every day, in the rain.  Only dad thinks it's ok to give you a ride".   

Ironically, I had told both kids that now that the weather is improving they should plan to walk every day - as they did before the pandemic.  The fact is that remote/hybrid just ended this week, the kids are now back in school fulltime, it's a transition - both seasonal and practical - and W and I agree that kids should walk - school is very close - unless the weather is bad. 

So W and D12 started jousting about what's fair, and it was rapidly escalating.  I intervened and redirected the discussion "what was the best part of everyone's day?" - which we do at dinner every day (W gets credit for initiating this with the kids years ago).  Immediately after dinner, W attempted to confront me while I was bathing D6.  "Sorry, I'm busy - maybe after the kids are in bed?"  D6 asks "what does throw someone under the bus mean?"

I sent a short follow up email to validate (and document):  I agree, I support you, the kids will walk, if we need to discuss more let's do it tomorrow when the kids are at school... etc.

W responds... "if you continue to try to turn the kids against me, there will be legal consequences"

Even though I'm not surprised, I'm surprised.

How to respond?  Or not respond?

Batten down the hatches...

I think you handled this well.

First, you agreed "yes, let's discuss this" and offered a specific time.

Then, you did the disarming jiu-jitsu of agreeing with her. Notice the big  red-flag of -- you agree with her and "the problem should be solved" but somehow "it's still a problem". That dynamic always alerts me that something else is simmering there. But, like you said, not a surprise that "agreeing that the kids will walk to school" is not solving the real problem.

She is showing people who she is when a reasonable solution is presented, and she doesn't engage with it. Good you got that in an email.

You did another good move in the email of saying "Yes, I agree" and then putting her own work back on her by leaving the door open: "If you want to discuss more, how about tomorrow". So it's no longer your problem to "try to discuss it with her". If she wants to talk more, that's her call. Otherwise, done.

...

If it were me, I wouldn't respond. Leave the email at that. No more offers, "thank you's", tries, "I'm sorry's" etc.

Once again, she isn't in a place where she can hear anything from you.

I would forward that email chain to my lawyer.

When my marriage imploded and we separated, my spouse was earning $100 - $200 a month on her MLM 'work'.  My lawyer managed to get her income "imputed" to minimum wage levels for support calculations, which was less than what she'd been earning before she quit after my then-preschooler was born.

You want her employed.  Fortunately, she's already filed for divorce and so if she does quit, it will be one more probable negative against her... she was working (though only part time) when she filed and thereafter quits gainful work?

One of your goals to finagle into every court appearance is that you're happy she's working, she is capable of working and thus that will be beneficial for her when the marriage is ended and your lives can go their separate ways.  Of course, how much court will pay attention and push her toward less financial dependence on you is anyone's guess but you sure don't want her to appear even more needful of spousal or child support.

Clarification question... Her lawyer informed your lawyer that she's filing for divorce  Has she actually filed with the local court or is it still in the in the nebulous discussion stage?

Thanks again, FD.

To be clear, I received a letter from my W's atty stating that my W had started the process to file.  Checking our state's online system, I found that a Complaint for at-fault D was filed that same day. 

I am still waiting to be served, I gather that the courts are backed up and pandemic-induced D business is booming.

The filing was three weeks ago.

In the meantime, I just receive a copy of the complaint - it contains no real detail other than to say my W cites irretrievable breakdown of the marriage, and she has requested majority physical custody (does not say why, and her atty has stated to my atty that she will not move off this point).

I've also started to hear claims of emotional abuse, both directly from my W, as well as from my atty when relaying information.  This is in addition to claims that I am financially controlling and not transparent about money.

I am somewhat concerned that when my atty outlines potential scenarios with my W's atty, it is relayed back to my W in terms that can only inflame the situation and drive conflict - great for the attys, not so much for me (or my W, truly).

Thinking about how to use more carrot and less stick to get her to move over to 50/50 so we can attempt to settle.

Our thinking outside the box can help "make" pwBPDs feel like they're winning, when in reality we're getting something we want/need.

For example, the kids are with Mom on Thanksgiving Day every year. But, we have Fri-Sun with them every year.

The kids are with Mom on Christmas Day every year. But, they're with us Christmas Eve every year, and it's nice because they're not all burned out on Christmas at that point.

Consider what you'd be able to "act like is a sacrifice, but you'd grudgingly hand over after negotiating" in order to "win" something bigger.

So for DH, he "gave up" Thanksgiving day, and got 3 days out of it. We have other issues with the PP (mostly Mom's foot dragging and not treating it as legal) but hopefully these ideas help.

@kells76, this is more great advice - particularly this week.

A few notes this week:

My W has yet to provide financial statements to her atty or to send a proposal of any kind. I know she wants majority physical custody and joint legal custody, but have no other information.  My atty speculates that my W wants to control the kids because she cannot control anything else.   

As suggested here, I am working on a strategy to use this to my advantage to get 50/50.  My atty feels that the only way to get there may be go to before a judge, however we have some work in front of us before that point.

I've got a lot of studying ahead.   In addition to better understanding state guidelines and the dynamics of a given judge, GAL, etc., I'm taking a close look at other elements of a potential agreement - child support, debt resolution, retirement accounts...  in order to put together a package that my W might go for. 

I know this is a question for my atty, and likely state specific, but if my W does cannot demonstrate adequate resources to provide for the kids at least 50% of the time, can she be awarded more than 50% custody without also demonstrating a valid reason?

She's likely to try to setup some argument re: emotional abuse / narcissism against me.  I cannot imagine any other potential claim.  In the meantime, I've documented years of inconsistencies as well as current ones (e.g., since she filed she has repeatedly asked to leave the kids with me in the evening, in order to spend time with friends, usually 2-3 times per week.  Of course I'm happy to watch the kids any time).

So in addition to studying and preparing a path to 50/50, I'm diving back into Splitting in order to address false claims and related behaviors/tactics.

One general question - hard to answer, I know, but it's on my mind...   Should I be attempting to speed things up or slow them down?   i.e., should I prepare my own settlement proposal as a sort of strawman in order to get my W to take a position?  As suggested here in many areas, provide constructive / productive options...    Or wait for her to make the first real move?

My understanding (and, as you said, this is a question for your L and could vary by state), is that there is no connection between finances and parenting time. Bear that in mind, and don't build any plans around "but she is literally only making $700 a month, so there is no way she'd be allowed to have the kids full time, so I don't have to worry...". Assume there's a "firewall" between the two.

OK, edited to add: yes, child support is typically based on # of overnights at each parent's house. In that sense, yes, there is a connection between parenting time and $$$.

But, the specific point is, don't assume that she makes too little money to have the kids for more time. Don't base any argument on "your honor, she can't possibly afford to have them 27 days a month".

 

Probably true. There's also this boundary-less BPD phenomenon where the kids are seen as extensions of themselves. She also seems to identify a lot with being a parent as part of her social life so there's that too.


Splitting hairs here ... custody is usually broken down in different ways depending on your state.

In my state, there's primary physical custody, legal custody, and then the visitation schedule.

So, I could have primary physical custody but still have a 50/50 visitation schedule, and then have joint custody, but have decision-making on medical and school.

I suspect the nuances are on purpose for exactly our situations.

Your wife could get primary physical custody but then you get 50/50 visitation. You two could have joint legal but you get to make choices on education (if that was an issue).

That way you both get to feel like you "won," even though primary physical custody might not mean much in practice (depending on how it works where you live).

There's no such thing as sole custody where I got divorced, yet I ended up with primary physical custody and legal custody and 90/10, which sure felt like sole custody.

Hope that makes sense. It might help flip your question a bit, because it's possible that she gets primary physical custody, you both get joint legal, you get decision making on education, and visitation is 50/50, with her getting to claim them on taxes the first year and getting them for Christmas or whatever, similar to what kells76 was saying.

It's really common to focus on the big things like custody, visitation, etc. but in most family courts you can break it all down into the minutiae if that's what's going to keep you out of their courtroom. Judges don't like repeat customers and they don't like solving your problems for you.

In terms of the income/custody thing ...There was a guy on these boards (maybe it was his wife) whose affair partner was homeless but she was still awarded visitation. My L explained to me that lawyers are ethically required to treat visitation and child support/income separately. They can't really wheel and deal those two things together. I don't know if that's the same in other states.


That's not going to go over well with a judge is my guess. Spend enough time in court and it's pretty clear judges don't want you there unless there's DV, molestation, severe substance abuse, or something else off the rails.

The way to handle someone who has emotional abuse claims is to ally yourself with the judge, which means proposing solutions. Make a reasonable offer that she can't refuse, give her deadlines, have reasonable consequences for non-compliance, etc. For example, if she says you're a big fat narcissist, then offer to do a one-week on, one-week off schedule so you two don't have to live together until ______. If she cannot find adequate housing by day/date, then suggest a residential hotel that you're willing to pay 25 percent for until day/date. That kind of thing.


She's probably going to be dysregulating and stonewalling and not functioning well, would be my guess. That's not a great frame of mind for problem solving. I would put something together that gives you room to negotiate. Maybe suggest, "Propose what you'd like by day/date. If we don't have something on the table by day/date, I'll draft something up and we can go from there."

The control/competition thing is going to be consistent so everything you propose, keep those two things in mind. With narcissism, it can help to think about appearances since that stuff matters so much.

For what it's worth, my ex's narcissism meant he fought hard to get more time with our son, but then in practice, including during active custody battles, he gifted that time back to me.

It's not uncommon for some BPD co-parents to put their own needs first, which can mean in practice you end up with more time even if the papers say otherwise.

The problem with that is your wife may use the kids when she wants to socialize with other parents ...

I see it as less about the specific acceleration, and more about who's driving the car.

The point is -- do your current velocity and acceleration work for YOU?

I could imagine a scenario where "dragging things out" could be beneficial to the non-disordered parent: i.e., the non parent has full custody, the PD parent files for a modification completely switching things around based on nothing meaningful. In that case, why hurry up to accommodate the PD parent -- if they're so desperate for a change, let them do their own legwork.

I could also imagine a scenario where "getting 10 steps ahead" could be beneficial the non-disordered parent. I am leaning towards you being in that category, a little bit.

The reason I'd see to "slow it down and see" in your case would be to document more of her incongruencies: "EyesUp is SOO abusive... that I ask him to watch the kids so I can get my nails done".

The downside to that is that she's working over the kids. The more time she has to mess with them and "get them on Mom's side", the worse for them.

So, because of where your kids are at, I'm leaning towards you setting the pace at a little brisker than she wants.

That also means, you're not letting her stonewalling/obstruction/etc set the pace for your divorce. You're not handing the steering wheel and gas pedal over to someone who isn't in touch with reality. You're driving this car, and you decide if/when you want to speed up, slow down, or change directions.

I'd orient my thinking around: How can I move forward at a pace advantageous to (#1) my kids and (#2) me, without relying on a disordered person's agreement or cooperation to do so.

Good point. I forgot that DH and the kids' mom alternate claiming the kids on taxes EOY. There is an IRS form where the custodial parent authorizes that. We used to have her sign a new one every year, but this year (finally) it just lists out the next 5 years worth of alternations.

So, listing out line items where she might feel like she's winning (perhaps based on "titles" or "appearances") but it's really more beneficial to you:

She could be "awarded" tiebreaker/decision maker on things like: eye doctor, gynecological care, religion

You could get tiebreaker/decision maker on: mental health (!), doctor, dentist

She could get to claim 2 of the kids every tax year, and you could claim 1 of the kids every tax year, rotating kids every year (or something)

She could get "decision maker" on school sports.

You could get official residential parent for school purposes/address.

...

If she's focused on titles/appearances, as LnL supposed, then she may feel "on top" if she is "awarded" multiple things in court... even if ultimately they're areas where you're fine if she "won" them. And, if she feels "on top", she might not fight you on the things you get... that are more consequential (like mental health decision making).

And on the decision-making thing ... it can get even more detailed. Like how things will be handled on items when both parents cannot agree.

Some parenting plans will have a tie-breaker parent.

For example, say she gets to have decision-making for education. You might ask to be tie-breaker on moving school districts. Something that prevents her from deciding to relocate to a different school district.

Keep in mind, too, that a lot of us end up back in court. You want language in your proposal that foresaw the inevitable stonewalling or non-compliance so that a judge doesn't give her six bites of the apple. That becomes an expensive way to get someone else to be your tie-breaker  :(

In my divorce I arrived at the court house prepared for a full-day Trial but we quickly started talking settlement.  The Custody Evaluator (an expensive but necessary professional, a child psychologist the court totally trusted) had already set the baseline - equal time in Shared Parenting.  We had to settle on the rest.


I was in and out of family court for some 8 years before we had an order that worked... with me having full custody and majority time during the school year.  From age 12 to adulthood we somehow avoided court.  In reality, her entitlement and control bubbles were deflated a bit.

Thanks again.  It is so helpful to have this community.

Something new yesterday.  

My W gave our dog to a foster home.  No discussion, it happened almost instantly, and the scary part is that I don't think it was premeditated.

We had two dogs, both rescues.  One was adopted almost 4 years ago.  The second was adopted in Jan (a mistake to agree to this on my part).

The older dog had some anxiety and has always nipped at strangers, and sometimes visitors to our home.  W denied this, described it as normal puppy behavior, refused to do crate training, and in retrospect I can see that she perceived every effort I made to discuss the dog's behavior or to actually train the dog as criticism of her.

Yesterday afternoon, the dog nipped at our youngest daughter's friend. I did not see it happen, I was told that skin did not break but there was a mark on the girl's arm.

My W came to me and immediately said "we have to get rid of the dog".  I listened to the story. I asked if everyone was ok. I agreed that nipping is a problem (in fact, it's been a major concern with the new puppy, too).  In minutes, my wife called the adoption agency, privately, had arranged for a foster home, and told the kids that the dog was going away.

With D coming/in process, I felt like I didn't have much choice but to go along with this, to pick my battles, and to avoid a confrontation that could get a lot worse. I suppose I can attempt to recover the dog from the foster home at some point.

The kids were stunned. I consoled them, at least tried to.

I feel like I just got a dress rehearsal for how my W might do... anything.

Did she split the dog?  Maybe.  Old dog is embarrassing, problematic.  New dog is generally mellow.  Old dog has received little or no attention since the new dog arrived - the kids have commented on this multiple times.  etc.
 
The old dog wasn't "my dog" per se, but I was doing all the things...  I don't see this as being an attempt to control or hurt me, the dogs are generally W's, I have always deferred to her, supported her desire to have dogs...  I do read independently about how to train them, feed them most mornings, etc.  I suspect that the old dog became an example of a failure, of sorts, for W - so had to go.

We did have a plan to manage the dog when we had visitors, not sure how the dog even had the opportunity to nip yesterday.  The dog's behavior is/was a serious concern, and would have become even more difficult to manage if not corrected - that's what notable for me:  There as no coordinated discussion about what to do, how to do it, when to do it, e.g., real effort to correct the dog's behavior - or a coordinated plan to talk with the kids.

My attempts to ask "do you want to let the kids say goodbye" and "do you think we should let the kids see the dog get in the foster car so they understand what's happening" were met with anger.  "You think I wouldn't do that?"

Sorry your weekend went down that way. Your W certainly seems to be grasping for control in hurtful ways.

Am I tracking with you that you want the dog to stay part of your life?

It may take some work in parallel plus non-reactivity to your W's responses to your work in parallel to make that happen.

Of course, she may be trying create an artificial external battleground between you two -- to synthesize a problem where there wasn't one, so she can act out the roles she's ruminating over in her head. I.e., she has a sort of psychic commitment to herself being the victim and you being the persecutor. But, in reality, there are few times, if any, where that's actually true. So, she "needs" to create new conflicts and then rigidly cast you as the persecutor and her as the innocent victim.

She was just trying to protect the family... how could you bring back a hurtful, out of control dog when the kids are around... she was the only one who saw what needed to be done... etc etc etc. I'd imagine the narrative for this specific situation goes something like that.

Really, though, there are SO few, if any, times where reality matches her internal narrative, that she has this compulsion to create scenarios out of the smallest iota of possibility in order to legitimize her feelings. Hence, OK, there's the tiniest grain of truth (the dog has been nippy... for complicated reasons), and therefore her scenario is unfalsifiable. Black and white, no nuance about "why the dog may have behaved that way" (that sure opens a door she wants closed), just quickly assigning everyone a rigid role so that she can externalize her inner turmoil. It's sad, truly.

...

OK, that was theoretical. Practically speaking:

Asking for any kind of agreement or cooperation, about moving forward re: the dog, will not likely be effective, as you've seen.

I would prioritize:

Validating the kids, no matter what next steps are. "How are you feeling about Doggo? What was last week like for you? What would you like me to know about how you're feeling? Wow, anyone would've felt X after that happened. Yeah, that makes sense that you'd feel that way."

Consider doing what the kids need regardless of whether your wife agrees with you or not. Do the kids need to see Doggo soon? Can you take them on your own, even one or two kids at a time? On the one hand, the only thing that'd hold me back from that is if she somehow weaponized that against the kids, and they aren't mentally mature enough to handle it: "Dad doesn't care about your safety... I'm the only one who cared enough to protect you... I can't believe Dad would be so irresponsible as to let you be with the dog without me there... did you get bit? Are you OK?" That kind of stuff. OTOH, leveling up your validation game is the way to address it: "What did you notice when we saw Doggo? How did he act? What are your thoughts about it? How did you feel?" Where instead of telling the kids how to feel about it, you let them process reality with you, and realize Mom's inconsistencies on their own.

Do you have contact info for the foster place? Consider talking with them independently about what happened. Could be something like: "We've had struggles at home and unfortunately it looks like Doggo was brought into it. While our home may have too much unpredictability for Doggo right now, the kids and I care about him very much and want him back in our lives in the future. Can you help us care for him for the next X months, or find somewhere that can? I want to be really clear that I am not OK with him getting adopted out, yet I'm concerned about how he might be brought into the middle of conflicts if I take him home right now."

The foster home may understand that domestic conflicts impact people's ability to safely house pets for a time.

Yeah, sad as it is, it sounds like the reality in your home is that coordinating communication with your wife towards the kids is not happening -- not about the dog, not about the divorce, nothing. You may need to start down a parallel track of telling the kids what they need to know, whether your W agrees or not.

Her current power is in stonewalling any kind of getting to parental agreement, and then acting like a loose cannon. This puts you on the back heel and your energy flows into reacting defensively after the fact.

I wonder if letting go of trying to get agreement, and instead being proactive towards the kids' needs, would change the dynamic. She wouldn't like it, of course, but you would regain some agency and the kids would get that compassionate communication from you ahead of time, instead of also being shocked and unsettled by Mom's unpredictability.

Really sorry it went down that way.

Yes!  This.

Part of the complexity of divorce is figuring out where the appropriate separation is.  While married, you're used to consulting your wife and trying to get some form of consensus.   When divorced, that doesn't always apply.  It can't, because your life is/will be separate from your wife's.

My goal with my kids and stepkid is to make decisions that are in their best interests.  Sometimes that means consensus with the other parent.  Sometimes (especially when it's SD's uBPDmom), it means we make decisions or set boundaries on our own.

It's a little more complicated for you since the two of you are still sharing a home.  Now is the time to start refocusing your thinking to "what do *I* think is best for the kids".  We can help brainstorm the best way to get to that point.

Thank you - I could really use some help with this.  My wife is pushing hard to tell the kids about D, but has not provided any proposals whatsoever re: plans or next steps.

I will most likely receive papers this week, however my atty indicated that my W has yet to provide financial statements and communication from her atty is incomplete.  There is a risk that my W will unilaterally communicate with the kids, although we have discussed how to talk with them together (it's not your fault, we both love you, you will have two homes... ), the issue is that we don't have any of the information that would be most important to them (are we moving? when? will we go to the same schools? will we have the same friends? etc.).  In the past we have been so careful about how to communicate with them about changes, including our move to a new town less than 2 years ago.

W is increasingly emotional / irrational, so I know I cannot count on agreement.  What would be super helpful, even though it's a huge ask, would be to brainstorm how to navigate this situation whichever way it plays out.

Another risk is that W is actively communicating with her friends, who are moms to our youngest D's classmates.  I have no doubt that I am being smeared in the process, and there is a risk that one of D's friends might overhear something and perceive or know something before D does, and might spill...

Working with my atty to put some scenarios for potential settlement together, but my gut says this will go to trial.  Just found out who the judge is - relatively new and therefore not well known.  Very nuts and bolts, which might actually be a good thing for me if unwilling to entertain / less likely to be swayed by unsubstantiated arguments from my W...

Also, somewhat predictably, there is anecdotal evidence that W is "dating" or hooking up or something.  Without going into detail, it's just another indication that she will prioritize her own gratification over pretty much anything.  

I think you ought to tell the kids ASAP.

It's okay that you don't have the final information.  You tell them the plan that you do have.

"Right now, mom and dad are both going to live in this house.  It will be a while before the divorce is final, and during that time mom and dad will work to figure out the details - where we will each live, when you will be at each of your new houses, etc.  These are grownup decisions to make, with the help of a judge.  They aren't decisions for kids to make."

I'm struggling with this.

The summons has not been issued, or signed.  There is no agreement or even a preliminary proposal.  Exposing the kids to a huge amount of uncertainty would be bad for them, and counter to advice in the "how to talk to kids about D" books I've read so far.  Also, informing the kids in the absence of a plan would enable W to play the victim card - hard - with the kids.  Parentification, etc.

She's already doing it in passive ways, but then again - I can now clearly see that this is what she's been doing all along.

This battle is only going to get worse, I'm afraid.  Maybe I'm trying to hold on to last moments of relatively stability for the kids, but my fear is that exposing them without any semblance of a plan only extends a likely traumatic period for them. 

W is actively dating, I'm slightly optimistic that her new paramour(s) will occupy enough of her attention to provide some time to improve planning, if only on my side. 

Welcome back.  Anyone know what happened the past few days?

Over here, I had a lightbulb moment while interviewing a potential resource for D10.  The counselor agreed that it's important to present a unified front, focus on what's important to kids, etc., UNLESS...    there is high conflict.

I realize that my disordered W likely perceives and reports high conflict to her IC and PsyD, et al. Never mind the fact that she instigates conflict, and what I view as small (she's upset I bought groceries...) she views as large.

Still mulling what to do, anticipating TOs soon, etc.

The low contact thing is difficult when cohab'ing, options are limited. 

Still cohabing, still have not informed the kids.

For those who have divorced, how did you get through the process?  Has anyone negotiated an agreement without going to trial?

My uCNPDw is fanning flames of conflict.  First avail hearing date is end of Nov.  Might need to go for temp orders. 

My H and his uBPDex negotiated a settlement on their own.

However, she is TERRIFIED of courts (she thinks a judge will look at her and take her kid away forever) so she was really motivated to agree to what H proposed.

My H and his ex negotiated a settlement, but it took 9 months and I finally saying, OK, it looks like court" for her to agree. I have up far more in assets than he should, but he was ready to finalize. Ex also is terrified of courts and judges -- she has had several arrests for actions taken against boyfriends over the years, plus she didn't want anyone looking into her business, which was shady.

I think you can negotiate a settlement of there is some leverage to use at the right time.

The Leverage also might be $$$ or maybe something the Ex really wants or a looming trial or major hearing.

I had been through every single step of my divorce process (temp order hearing, mediation attempt, parental investigation, custody evaluation, settlement conference, a few court continuations, etc) and she refused to cooperate the entire time, nearly two years, since the temp order was very favorable to her.  I arrived on Trial Day and was greeted with the news that she was finally ready to settle.  I found out later her lawyer had told her she couldn't delay the inevitable any longer.

Based on what ForeverDad experienced, perhaps your best move is to push for a temporary ruling that is equitable and even tilted in favor to you. That way, everything doesn't have to be settled, and you could talk to the children with arrangements in place.

Thanks all.

My stbx is apparently not terrified of court, at least not yet.  

She is heavily projecting her behavior on to me - she routinely accuses me of being a narcissist, and has actually put "get help for your NPD" in email.  I struggled with this, however my IC has stated unequivocally that I'm not a narc, and whatever narc attributes I may possess are of the normal variety.

My W seems to want a stage upon which to proclaim her victimhood and to attempt to smear/shame me.

So far, we have not been able to make much progress as we stall at custody - she wants majority physical custody.  We have yet to discuss support.

It seems unlikely that we'll agree to anything, and will need to go for temp orders.

I think that she is motivated by multiple things, and I'm not entirely certain what leverage is truly leverage because she is not being rational or fair in any way.

Money is certainly a factor.  She assumes that she will receive full CS.  In order to impute income, we need to go before the judge.  She won't agree to 50/50 custody, again need to go before the judge.  

It's possible that by putting together a settlement proposal, which includes debt, support, and custody, that she might begin to negotiate - but more likely her atty will rack up hours and lead us to the judge.

My atty proposed stipulations that did not address custody.  My feeling was that if I agreed to anything now, I would lose leverage to get a custody agreement, so I balked.

There were two 911 calls, both against my W, which did not result in a psych eval or arrest, but which point to a pattern of behavior and which she might wish to avoid having in the public record.  Same with certain aspects of her pattern of infidelity.

However I've been repeatedly advised not to point a finger, and instead to demonstrate that I'm superdad...   so it's unclear how or if to use this "evidence" in a productive way.

Interestingly, my atty thinks that my W's atty has not reviewed the police logs from the 911 calls.  

I also fear that bringing this information forward will make cohabitation even more difficult.

In the meantime, it's likely that we will speak with the kids in the next week or so.  So far, W has rejected any collaborative preparation or discussion of any kind and we still do not have anything like proper plans in place to address the kids' wellbeing or their concerns.

I could really use some practical advice re: how to respond to my W.  It is exhausting.

She sent an email:
"I may go away on Sunday afternoon/evening and come back on Monday. Not sure yet-- but if I can make this happen, I could ask my mom to take the girls overnight. She already has them Sunday afternoon."

Monday all three kids have school, and MIL lives ~10 miles away.  The kids have never stayed with MIL on a school night.  I responded:
"I'm glad to coordinate with your mom Sunday night and get the kids to school on Monday."

I don't really have a problem with the kids staying with my MIL occasionally, but this is slightly unusual and I'm trying to provide consistency and stability wherever possible.

W responds:
"I don’t know that I trust you to do any of that. Or maybe you will do it —but then have your lawyer accuse me of abandoning my kids.
I don’t know. I will let you know. I wish I could make one decision without needed to consult counsel for fear of your retribution."

To be clear, I am 100% taking the high road.  There has been no retribution, no accusation, no threat.  She is projecting, or something.

There is no basis for an abandonment claim over a night out, or in general.

She seems hyper sensitive to potential claims of unfitness.  While I do have reservations about her judgment, and there are demonstrable patterns of behavior that would raise questions in a custody hearing, this has not been a drugs/violence/criminal activity type situation.  It's emotional/financial/fidelity issues common in a PD situation. I recognize the pitfalls of going down this rabbit hole in family court, and hope to avoid GALs, psych evals, etc. etc. if only to spare our kids a protracted conflict. Not to mention cost - I'm already stretched to the limit.

So - How to respond? 

I am constantly accused of lies, threats, abuse, etc.  All false.  I am tiptoeing in the house while trying to create some space to come to an agreement or understanding re: custody, support, etc., so we can sell the house, stop cohab'ing, and move forward.

There are some messages that I let go unanswered, and others where I try to neutralize negative assumptions or false accusations by using some of the skills I've learned here - a mix of validation and BIFF statements.

But for some reason, I am jammed on this one re: abandonment/MIL time.

For an added twist, I'm sure that she's seeing someone - so the whole thing may be a smokescreen so she can hookup.  I have not confronted her about she's doing, we're way past intimacy and definitely moving toward D. 

It shouldn't surprise me any more how some pwPD's "accidentally tell the truth" via oversharing, blame, deflection, and projection.

It's like they can't stop sharing details when they really, really should.

Amazing how SHE is the one going away -- and she doesn't even know for how long!, but somehow YOU'RE not to be trusted with getting the kids to school at a set time on Monday.

Yeah, all kinds of stuff going on with her.

Your original reply was great, that is exactly the mindset you need for success. No argument, just BIFF problem solving. Really good.

So, what to do with her "you're not trustworthy, your L is just going to accuse me of stuff, I'm afraid of you" message?

One good option is not responding. Not a lot to be validated in there.

That might mean that you coordinate the schedule independently with your MIL, so a lot would depend on the relationship you have with her.

You've already informed W that you are happy to coordinate with MIL, so it "shouldn't" be a surprise when you do. Somehow, it still will be to W, but you've already got your plan documented.

There is really nothing to engage with in her second email. If it were me, I would not respond, and then I'd proceed to coordinate with MIL directly... as long as that relationship is OK enough to do that.

In the years to come there will be occasional "who will parent when I can't" events.  Have you two discussed what sort of give-and-take to handle that?  As in, "This time it's when you are gone on your parenting time and can't parent, next time is might be me who has that circumstance."  At some point that may need to be addressed, though perhaps not yet, especially if other aspects of parenting are still up in the air.

This gets into ROFR territory, Right of First Refusal.  This is where, under specified circumstances, one parent have to offer the other parent his/her affected slice of parenting time before asking others.  Some parents here decided it was best not to have that clause in a parenting order, for other family dynamics it is a must to have an appropriate version to ensure your ex doesn't bulldozer you all the time.

I had a limited ROFR early in my legal struggles when my son was young but I dropped it a few years later when it became disadvantageous.

Kells, FDad, thanks again.

re: MIL - my W approached me to follow up today, so there was a verbal exchange about this.  I simply said, "it's in everyone's best interest, especially the kids, to normalize some cooperation between me and MIL" to which my W said "I agree" and then "but I need to talk to my atty because I'm afraid you're going to stab me in the back" and then "I might not even go, or I might just go for the afternoon, I don't know yet" - I didn't respond.  Let's see what she comes back with.

re: first rights - my W wants majority physical custody.  I'm pushing for 50/50.  At one point, she said she wanted first right of refusal, and wanted other assurances - but when we got to our first 4-way with attys, she backpedaled and said she would not discuss 50/50.  I hear you re: pros and cons on this.

The main thing that's come into focus over the past few weeks is that my stbx has been laying the groundwork for an alienation campaign for some time, and like most other aspects of our relationship I have attempted to stay above the fray, avoid, ignore, and in the process I've unwittingly allowed the process to unfold.

If I'm seeing things clearly (a big "if"), I am bonded to the kids, they often come to me for support, and they would be sad if I was not in their lives.  However with news of D on the horizon, I anticipate that my stbx could weaponize them in several ways and do a lot of damage in the process. 

This past weekend, I heard a chilling story of a father who voluntarily gave up access to his kids in order to avoid putting them in the middle - even though there was a clear GAL reco to intervene against his W.  I imagine that this was an extreme case, but it was eye opening.

I have always been involved with my kids.  In my case, this is not an example of sudden onset of super-dad-ness due to imminent D.  I know the pediatrician.  I know the teachers.  I've been to the workshares and parent teacher conferences, the school picnics and festivals and performances.  I've been the regular parent at swim, gymnastics, and dance classes. I make breakfast, do drop offs and pickups, and read stories at bedtime.  I could go on.

Yet I find myself in a custody battle, and I expect that my stbx will continue to make bad choices that she attributes to me.  e.g., she will tell the that I'm always angry, that I don't give her any money, that I won't pay for dance or other activities, that I'm mean to the dog, etc. etc.

I've read a bit about alienation - a lot of the lit is about attempts to recover after the damage is done.  I think I'm in a somewhat earlier position where there might be a chance to mitigate - but I haven't found much on this. 

Any thoughts on this?

I should note:  stbx still refuses to collaborate in way in regard to planning for how to tell the kids, but the news is likely to come before the end of July. 

Validation and active listening.

SD was 4 when I met H.  Most of her uBPDmom's alienation was focused on me.

Every time we were alone, SD would say "Mama said <something negative about me>."  I only asked "How did that make you feel?/What do you think about that?"  If she answered, I'd validate her feelings.  If she said she didn't know, I'd ask more questions or take a guess - "Wow, I think if I heard that I'd be angry/upset/disappointed/scared/confused". Part of this was to help her learn how to name her emotions.

Sometimes, after we talked about the feelings, I'd ask if she wanted to know what I thought.

I never, ever badmouthed her mom.  I did say sometimes that "I think Mama might be confused."

I also did my best to be trustworthy to SD.

After two years, she stopped making those comments to me.  She had decided to trust me and not her mom.

Thanks, WMom.

How did you develop this skill? 

I'm living in a Seinfeld episode of inconsequential moments that are elevated to high drama. 

My response has generally been to not respond - it's my default mode.  As a result, I've unintentionally tolerated behavior that I now think I should have managed differently.  How?  I'm not sure.

Examples:

1)
STBX is stressed and didn't buy groceries, there's nothing for dinner, asks if I will order pizza for the kids.  OK.
I place our standard order, which includes STBX's preferred bbq chicken.
Upon serving, STBX makes a big show of a stray bit of onion on her first slice. "I can't eat this! What did you order?  Didn't you get the one I like?"
Our oldest rushes to mom, "it's ok mommy, you can have my piece!"
I also offer a different slice from the box, which does not have onion. 
STBX, acting distraught, will not eat or accept comfort, which makes our oldest try harder.  STBX plays it to the hilt, and orders a salad, which she needs to leave to go pickup.
Along the way, it's implied that I intentionally botched the order, or otherwise arranged for a feral slice of onion to invade STBX's slice in order to upset her.

2)
STBX will not discipline the dog, which has developed the habit of jumping up on the counter in the kitchen.  It's a large dog.  I often tell the dog "down" or "no" and I will remove the dog from the counter, if needed.  The dog has generally learned not to do this when I am in the kitchen, but he will resume the unwanted behavior when STBX is present because she basically rewards it. She has a way of patting him, nuzzling him, giving him some positive attention as she ever so passively nudges him away from the counter - of course he jumps right back.  Recently, I told the dog "no!" and was reprimanded by STBX for being angry, and she added - in front of our youngest - "your friend's dad doesn't yell at their dog".  Of course the next day, I'm walking the dog with my youngest and when the dog pulls I say "heel!" and my daughter says "why are you angry with the dog?"
So I asked her, "why do you think I'm angry?"
And she responded "because you use your mean voice" and adds "that's not what my friend's dad does".
Now I'm aware that she's parroting her mother, so I simply ask her if it's ok for the dog to pull?  and if she'd like to help me teach the dog not to pull?  and we get on to relatively healthy communication.  Nonetheless, I'm certain that the main thing that will stick with her is the idea that dad yells at the dog, and that STBX will find a way to highlight this down the road as animal abuse or worse, with the kids as witnesses.

3)
I once retrieved a bag of tortillas to finish off the last bit of guacamole once everyone else was done.  STBX loudly comments "I did not serve those chips!  What's wrong with how I served the guacamole?  That is so obnoxious of you" - and again, my oldest comes quickly to mom's side and says "yes, dad.  Why did you take out the chips?"  So I simply folded the bag and put it away, and later asked my oldest if she was really upset about this - and she reiterated what her mother said. Never mind the fact that we regularly self-serve drinks, condiments, etc., at mealtimes. I didn't persist.

My main observation is that the most minor behavior can be recast as offensive, in realtime, with a live audience.  It's actively happening, and I have no doubt that it's been happening longer than I knew, and that it will escalate.

I hesitate to even describe these interactions, because there are people dealing with actual DV and far worse situations.  Nonetheless, I feel like I'm being cast as a villain, day by day.  If I stand my ground or attempt to discuss, I'm a big, scary, angry man.  If I capitulate, I enable the pattern to continue.  1:1 discussions with kids after the fact seem less than impactful.  Validating STBX only reinforcing what the kids are already learning about catering to their mother's moods and often irrational behavior.  Not validating STBX leads her to behave as if I am threatening her, somehow.

I've read a bit about the victim behavior, and how it elicits sympathy and how it can weaponize the kids - It's chilling.  What I have not found, or perhaps not yet digested, is how to mitigate this pattern -- other than being the best dad I can be, to maintain the bond with my kids.

I accept that I can't change the wind, so how do I trim the sails in these conditions?

My therapist helped me a lot.  I am a pleaser, and I had to learn what is in my zone of control versus what is not, and to stop mindreading and rescuing.  (This s*&! is hard, btw.) 

I'm not an expert by any means.


Your oldest is a rescuer too.  I think next time you might model a way to empathize without rescuing.  "STBX, I'm sorry you don't like the pizza that I ordered.  I won't be offended if you decide to eat something else." *

You aren't offering a solution - it isn't your job (or kiddo's) to fix this for her.   You also aren't buying into the blame game.

*My S12 is a picky eater, and this is how we've handled it since he was 3 and learned how to make his own PBJ sandwich.


I think you started out great by asking her why she thought you were angry!
From there, I might have said, "Hmm, I have a mean voice?   I didn't know that!  What does it sound like?"  [Optional - display several scary/silly voices and ask if those are the mean voice]

"Have I ever used that voice with you or you sibling?/When else do I use it? "  [Trying to find out if this is solely about the dog]

"How does it make you feel when I use that voice?"  (if neutral, then "Darn it, I must need to practice to make it a really scary voice then.")

"What does your friend's dad do when their dog is misbehaving? Maybe I can learn something!"   or, as you tried, ask her to help you figure out a better way to stop the dog from pulling.


"Huh.  I thought we always serve ourselves.  I didn't realize it would offend you."  and I would KEEP EATING THE CHIPS.

And when oldest interfered, a quiet, "Sweetie, is it your place to get in the middle of grown-up discussions?"

Yup.

Defuse with humor.
Don't JADE.
Put the responsibility for irrational behavior back on STBX - pointing out that she is having a fit over stuff that is normal and then drop it.

Right now, the kids have to take mom's side because it is dangerous not to.  Once you are living separately, hopefully that will give them some freedom.  You are going to have work really hard to get oldest out of the habit of trying to police everyone to keep mom happy.  It took a lot of therapy and years for us to get SD to mostly drop that.

Thanks again, WMom.

Any thoughts about communication w/STBX on this?

Is there any benefit to pointing out the pattern directly to her?

e.g., an email such as "We don't know how friends discipline their dog in private, vs. when guests are present.  We do know that we need to work on our dog's behavior, so any suggestions you have are welcome."

Or just ignore, as usual?

I am mindful that documentation could become important, although I do find these relatively minor interactions to seem petty - even as I worry about how the pattern will manifest in less petty ways on the horizon.

In regard to "keep eating the chips" - I would definitely do that if it was just me and STBX.  However in front of the kids, my instinct is to avoid modeling behavior that could be interpreted as overtly disrespectful/selfish.  I appreciate that boundaries are selfish, so I'm generally trying to strike a balance. I don't want the kids to think it's ok to simply disregard someone else. I feel like this comes up frequently.

I know everyone is different, but I wish there was more to learn about how these behaviors evolve (or maybe they don't?).  I realize I'm facing a long haul, and I'm probably still hoping that I can somehow mitigate the worst, when in fact it's yet to come and likely unavoidable:  She will alienate the kids, and then at some point disregulate/collapse and cause further damage. 

She's late 40s. I expect that some of her behavior might change as she progresses through natural cycles over the next few years.  What should I expect?  What does the combination of a PD at menopause with three girls entering adolescence look like?

There is no benefit in pointing this out to her.  You can document it in your own private journal.

There is a balance between being disrespectful and catering to someone else's disrespect.  Right now, you are showing the girls that their mom is right and should be obeyed, regardless of how disrespectful or irrational she is.  That's not healthy either.  There's a way to stick to your own boundaries and sense of what is appropriate without being rude. It may take practice and a lot of self-examination to figure out where your line is.

It's possible your W will do better when you are in separate homes - my SD's mom was very triggered by her parents (whom she lived with), and her behavior improved when she moved out again.  SD's mom was also VERY triggered when SD started learning and practicing boundaries.  We've been through several cycles where things got better and then got very  bad (multiple hospitalizations) and now she's getting better again.

Thanks to all who have followed along and also provided input.  It's been helpful and appreciated.

I have a few updates, and once again I could use some advice.

stbx sent an email: "I'm moving out at the end of next month and I'm taking the kids".

This was not unexpected, and we finally told the kids earlier this week.  stbx's surprisingly chipper attitude helped offset what I expected to be difficult, but of course it was still difficult.  

She declined to agree to speaking points ahead of time, until her atty supervised, and then she deviated from the agreed points (It's not your fault, You'll have two homes, Both mom and dad love you, etc.) by stating that our current house will be sold (instant tears from 3 kids).  

I immediately set the story straight and told the kids that mom and dad do not agree on how to handle everything, the house will not be immediately sold, and that we'll need a judge to help us decide what to do - and that no matter what, they will always have a home with me and with mom, even if I eventually do get a new house someday.

The oldest immediately withdrew from me. Whenever mom is angry, the oldest protects mom and assumes I did something wrong to anger mom. Avoiding mom's anger is understandably high on her priority list. The younger two had a lot of questions for me - which, as painful as this is, is somewhat good to see - that they trust me, confide in me, and come to me for comfort.

Looking forward, I believe stbx thinks she's simply taking whatever she wants from the house with her move.

We have not had a hearing yet - and no date has been set. No temp orders. Everything is backed up. 

My atty proposed to go for a speedy hearing prior to the move in order to get some temp orders with emphasis on parenting time. Legal bills are stacking up and we're still just getting started. I'm somewhat relieved that the kids know - no more hiding, no more secrets - but there is so much uncertainty ahead.

Not surprisingly, since sharing her plans, stbx is increasingly hostile and overtly confrontational - in front of the kids and in our direct communications. The conflict patterns have never been more clear.

I'm pretty good at not getting sucked in or being reactive to emotional attacks, but I fear that this still plays out as "dad is the bad guy" because mom is upset... And I'm concerned that I am reactive in terms of managing the D/parenting time legal process. I need to figure out how to get in front of this.

Has your L made any recommendations about if/how to respond to this?

First thought for a reply is (just to get an email trail):

"I do not agree with you taking the kids. [They will stay in this house until there is an official parenting plan in place.] I agree that you are free to move wherever works for you."

Not sure about including middle chunk or not.

It might be worth getting your instant disagreement documented, both to get it on paper and to eliminate any argument of "you never said you weren't OK with it".

...

I think that sometimes pwBPD believe that "if they said it, then it's real". So there could be an aspect of "now that I've announced it, it is real and everyone must treat it as real" coming from her.

If I'm recalling correctly, she has never said in an email or recorded conversation anything like "you can have the kids" or "I'll just move out on my own"?

I agree with Kells that you need documentation of your position sent to her quickly. Also, your lawyer needs to get a temp order hearing scheduled ASAP. And as ForeverDad tells everyone at this stage of a divorce, this is where you put all effort toward the best temp order possible -- because temp orders rarely change, and this divorce could take several years to finalize.

If your STBX wants to move out, you can encourage her to do so -- but not until there are temp orders on custody, sharing of time with the children,came property that can or can't be removed from the house. Are you thinking that she assumes she will be taking, for example, bedroom furniture for three children's bedrooms plus her own? That doesn't make sense if you are going to have them 50% of the time.

>> I think that sometimes pwBPD believe that "if they said it, then it's real". So there could be an aspect of "now that I've announced it, it is real and everyone must treat it as real" coming from her.

100% this.

No, she has never said anything about leaving the kids - just the opposite:
- she wants majority parenting time
- no specific proposal
- unwilling to engage a mediator
- highly sensitive to "unfit" claims, although I've never used this language - it comes from her
- multiple suicide threats, and related comments, e.g., "you just want me dead so you can have the kids to yourself" (projection, I know)

@GG, Yes, I need to respond.  My atty is MIA and provides almost no guidance.  I need to figure this out on my own. I wish there was a guide to high-conflict attys in my county...  I think I need to make a change, but I've already interviewed > 20 attys.

Bill Eddy says that PD'd participants are known to change attys, so here I am second guessing myself - am I the crazy one?

Thanks, both, for input.

If you can sincerely and reasonably ask yourself, "Am I the crazy one?" then you're not.  In a manner of speaking she's not quite crazy either.  (Not in the looney tunes way.)  She may be relationship dysfunctional, entitled, manipulative, and a host of other extremes but odds are she will never be institutionalized.  Court and other professionals may deal with her cautiously and with kid gloves but just because she has her mindset doesn't mean you can't have your own mindset too.

Think... irresistible force versus the immovable wall?  Ponder how your boundaries learned here - see 1.07 & 1.08 (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329744.0) can enable you to deal with her extreme perceptions and perspectives as the separation begins and the divorce proceeds.

I learned a couple things at the beginning of my divorce.  (1) Without a temp order in place you can't force your spouse to behave.  Mine decided to block my parenting and not only were the police unhelpful (telling me to get a court temp order before saying they'd intervene) they also admitted that if I went to see my kid they'd come rushing to protect her.  I didn't want her to get me arrested so I stayed away from her and waiting on the court hearing.  (2) When finally in court the magistrate confirmed she had been blocking my contact with our preschooler but the magistrate took it in stride as no big deal and simply dictated a temp order rewarding her with temp custody and for me alternate weekends.  No makeup time for me and not even a finger wagging at her for what she did.  That's about the time my lawyer informed me courts expect conflict and ignore all but the more serious violations, expecting the emotions will calm once the divorce is final.

Some states are starting dad's with equal time but whether yours will or not may also depend on you using that brief divorce temp order hearing - mine was about a half hour - to present enough information that yours is not the typical divorce case with little squabbles.

It seems your spouse has the belief that she gets to decide how the divorce will occur.  Entitled.  Ultimatums.  Demands.  Around here, that's predictable.  That's where having time-tested strategies will aid you.  You may lose a few skirmishes along the way but others you will win and the war for your parenting is not hers to decide.

Thanks again, Kells, GG, FDad.

I'm afraid that I missed the chance to register "instant" disagreement - stbx has written several times that "the kids will have a home with me" and I generally have not responded directly with JADE in mind.

However she has also acknowledged that they will have two homes - including in talking points cc:d to her own atty.

However things are escalating, and my atty is low on advice/strategy.

I went ahead and sent a short note to register my view - that I support stbx's move, but that the kids should remain in their home until TOs are in place - and I received 3 responses over a short period of time, and a 4th about :30 mins later, in which her entitlement and rage is apparent.

Documentation isn't the issue, it's how to prepare it / present it in what will be a short preliminary hearing. I feel like my task is make the best movie trailer possible - a 30-60 second preview of what lies ahead in this case. However the courts are backed up, everything is still remote. I am going for a speedy hearing for TOs, I have work to do to prep. 

In parallel, the kids are being weaponized. I truly appreciate the support here, but I do feel isolated and wish I could identify local resources to help navigate at least part of the minefield. 

We agreed weeks ago to a schedule for August in which my stbx would have two weekends and I would have two weekends with the kids.  We'd each use this time for "vacation" meaning day trips or short overnight trips, maybe 2 nights.

In the meantime, my stbx has spent many nights and weekends out of the house.  I've been home with the kids throughout, except for a few days they have spent with my MIL.

Fast forward, here we are, now the kids know about the D, know about mom's plan to move and that they will have two houses, etc.

My oldest is anxious about a trip with me this coming weekend.  It was originally for 3 nights, but I told her that it could be just for 2 nights.  stbx has been quick to suggest that I not "force" her to go, and that she can stay home if she wants to.

I don't want to capitulate, don't want to split up the kids, don't want to set a precedent.  I *do* want to help my daughter overcome anxiety, adjust to changes (this will take a lot of time), and maintain/develop trust.

I'm having a hard time navigating through normal 13yo daughter behavior vs. anxiety vs. anxiety associated with the separation vs. what may be an unhealthy alliance w/stbx.

The 2 younger kids (d6/d10) are excited about the trip, and open with me about their feelings about what's happening, and in general - we're very close, and I have a sense that they trust me about certain things and confide in me, so far the perceived barrier is only with the oldest.

My questions are:
We're supposed to leave this Friday.  How to navigate the week to make sure d13 is comfortable to go, and I'm not undermined by stbx along the week.  I'm particularly concerned that if I agree to let d13 stay home, that will be disappointing if not concerning to the younger two.

As hard as it may be, if you start now with "well, I guess you don't have to go if you REALLY don't want to", then you are setting up a dynamic where your 13YO "drives the car" on spending time with either parent, and unfortunately, especially you. Mom will clue in to this vibe and abuse it to no end. Even though it's coming from a place of love and care for your D13, once you open that door, you can't close it, and you will lose time with your D more and more. Mom will tacitly find ways to "check if D13 REALLY wants to go with you today" and "of course D13 can go if she wants" and "Mom will just make sure that D13 is really, really sure she wants to spend time with you, and it's OK either way". Note that she won't be saying "I don't want D13 to go, and I'm telling D13 not to go with you". It's an abusive setup where D13 will know, tacitly, that it ISN'T OK for her to go with you because she'll be emotionally punished by Mom, and Mom has plausible deniability because "I never told D13 she couldn't go... I just listened to her feelings... I support D13 being in touch with how she feels..."

I cannot recommend strongly enough that you all go on the trip together. Nip this in the bud now or unfortunately it will set a precedent that is impossible to escape. Yes, it may be difficult and uncomfortable. Find a way to make it through the moment, get all 3 kids in the car, and leave.

Be really, really, really careful about trimming nights to make an anxious kid happy. If Mom hears about it, and she will, then she will start "empowering" the kids to tell you "I only want 2 nights... I only want 1 night... I don't want to spend the night".


This means going on the trip together, and helping her build her toolkit of things she can do when she's in a situation she'd maybe rather not be in. Being allowed to avoid the situation and/or having adult-level say in whether it happens or not -- these aren't realistic tools for a 13YO. It's more like -- OK, here we are on the trip, and you're feeling homesick. What are some caring things you can do for yourself while we're here? Want to sit in the hot tub? Can you text your friend and chat for a while? How about you take a phone with you and walk down to the corner store and pick up some ice cream? Can you choose some movies for a movie marathon?

Giving her a little more leeway with stuff on the trip than you'd normally give her at home makes sense. OK, at home we don't chat online with friends for 2 hours at a time, but I'm OK with letting you do that on this trip for some support, and I'm so glad you have a friend who cares about you so much. At home, we don't watch 4 hours of movies at once, but we can relax on this trip and do some caring stuff for ourselves that looks a little different.

STBX is already weaponizing the "forcing the kids" narrative. It needs to be stopped now or else it is going to get very, very out of control. The sooner you can move forward with taking all 3 kids on the trip and having a good time, the less weight those accusations from stbx will have. The longer you "try to be caring" by giving in on days/nights, the more weight you give to those accusations from her, and the more the kids will believe that maybe you are forcing them to do things.

She's trying to paint normal parenting choices as "forcing the kids". This is really dangerous.

Remind me if the kids have a counselor?

In terms of "normal" teen stuff, keep in the back of your head that she could be dealing with her period. Unfortunately in our situation, the kids' mom used that information for her own sense of power instead of to care about the kids (especially oldest SD who was 12.5 at the time). Mom never told us that SD12.5 had started her period and so when I figured it out on my own, and texted Mom "hey, did you know SD12.5 started her period? Just FYI" Mom came back with "of course I knew, but SD12.5 told me she didn't want to tell you or Dad about it, so I respected that, and I sent supplies with her". It was all framed as Mom being nurturing, caring, respectful, and trustworthy, but what it really was was Mom sacrificing SD12.5's sense of security and preparedness so that Mom could be "the only caring one, the only trusted one, the only one who could take care of SD12.5". Really, really sick stuff.

So figure out what kinds of pads or supplies your D is using (if she has started) and pick up some to bring along, in some kind of cute zip bag/cover so it's not just a tampon box out in the open (she may still be sensitive/shy about it). Even if she hasn't started, she may have some anxiety or apprehension about starting away from home, so in that case make your best guess about pads at the store (try teen-oriented brands/small sizes) and casually let her know you're bringing supplies ("OK, I'll pack some of the bathroom bag... you make sure to put your toothbrush in... I'll add toothpaste, hand sanitizer, pads, and floss... it'll all be in this bag just so you know").

Also, on the trip, she may have some anxiety about swimming or seem swimming-resistant, if she's on her period or thinks she may start. Your younger D's might not understand, so if D13 is ever like "I just don't feel like swimming", it could help her if instead of asking "Why not, you love swimming, can't you just have fun in the pool", you're like "No big deal, so glad you checked in with yourself to see what you were up for, I'll sit on the edge of the hot tub with you if you wanna just chill and put your feet in". And let your younger D's know: "Sometimes people want to swim, and sometimes they don't. It's great D13 knew what she wanted to do."

Anyway, just some more food for thought -- we've been there, as the girls are 13 and 15 now.

And just to add a third thing.

This is brutal stuff. It's really, really challenging, and it hurts. We have been exactly where you are at. You love your kids, and you want to care about them, and help them. When the other parent twists your love and care into control and "forcing" and makes it a lose-lose, that's abusive and cruel.

Coming up with a plan ahead of time, with concrete "if-then" steps, can help you make it through those incredibly difficult moments.

We took the kids on an international trip a few months ago. What DH and I had to do in the week or so leading up to it was radically accept that if we got to the front door at Mom's house, and Mom answers the door and says "SD15 doesn't want to go", then we agreed ahead of time we would talk to SD15 and say "We're so sad you're not coming with us. We'll miss you and see you when we get back". We had to be ready for the worst case scenario with a specific plan, so that if we got there, Mom couldn't power-play us. She gets off on having DH be desperate to see the kids and the kids saying No, I don't want to go. And she does it without ever telling the kids "I don't want you to see Dad". It's that subtle alienation where an environment is created where the kids know what they need to do to keep Mom happy, and Mom has plausible deniability.

(note, both kids ended up coming with us, SD15 did have roller coaster emotions and a poor, ungrateful attitude for the first few days. But they were both there over Mom's repeated statements that "she didn't want them to go")

While I'm emphatically NOT recommending that specific step (accept the kids not going) for you where you're at (my gut feeling is you need to make sure all your kids go on this trip), the overall point is -- you will need to plan ahead of time dealing with your stbx's manipulations.

The more we game out in advance what to do at those "front door" moments, the more we are able to keep our cool and be responsive and flexible instead of reactive and frozen. That's going to be key for you -- plan out at least 3 possible scenarios and work through, step by step, how you can be warm and caring with your D's without freezing, reacting, arguing, etc. pwBPD thrive on "must decide now", high-pressure, win-lose or lose-lose scenarios. Help yourself not get caught off guard. Yes, it's hard thinking ahead to really difficult, high-emotion situations. Can you get support in that? Who can you work with to plan out your "if... then..." moves? We are here if you need us.

...

I know all that has been pretty general. One specific I can think of is -- I wonder if there's any way to talk with your D13 (or even all 3 kids together) ahead of time about leaving for the trip. Something like -- does everyone have what they need to take care of themselves on the trip? stuffed animals? anyone who needs music to listen to, do you have that set up? If D13 comes back with "I'm not going, I don't want to go, you can't force me"... be aware that you might want to react with an argument/JADE, or with appeasement. It will feel uncomfortable and you may want to get rid of the uncomfortable feeling by either trying to convince D13 that she has to go, or appeasing her (aka appeasing Mom) by making more concessions. Instead, consider taking a stance of openness -- "Tell me more... tell me all about it... what else do you want me to know...what would the negatives be... what would the positives be... how do you think you would feel if that happened... I wonder if there's more you want to talk about..." repeat, repeat, repeat. This helps provide a place for her to vent, and buys you time. you don't have to decide right then, and if there's pressure of "You have to tell me now that I don't have to go", come back with: "This sounds really important to you... do I have that right? Honey, what's important to you is important to me, and it deserves my best thinking... I'm going to just take in what you've shared with me for a while... I wouldn't want to rush something so important to you..."

Anyway, that's an example of gaming out a possibility for how things go. You come up with some "worse" directions things could go, and you get solid in your head, beforehand, validation statements, temperature-lowering moves, and ways for you to not get backed into a corner. Knowing those moves/phrases ahead of time can help you keep cool, grounded, and not reactive/frozen if conflict comes up.

Kells, thank you. 

This is super helpful.

> STBX is already weaponizing the "forcing the kids" narrative.
100% yes.

I really like your idea about talking to the kids about the trip together - I will have time with the older two together tomorrow. The youngest is fine and will follow the older two.

You asked about counseling...  D13 sees a relatively young LICSW and they seem to be doing well.  STBX did not mention the D in the intake, yet also described me as her ex-husband in a billing email with the clinic.  This opened the door for me to call and introduce myself to D13's counselor - my agenda was simply to ask how I can best support D13.

Fast forward to this week, STBX has proposed for D10 to join D13's session this week "to listen in", and now added "could be good to talk about the trip" - which might mean that STBX intends to join the session (without me present) and influencing both D13 and D10.  I'm not inclined to call the counselor in advance for fear of seeming manipulative, but there is an option to call - the appointment is late Wednesday.

I see the danger of precedents and slippery slopes, and I'm super concerned.

Your "normal teen stuff" comments are prescient, as D13 uncharacteristically skipped a trip to the lake on Sunday - I think you may have identified why. I'm embarrassed it had not occurred to me. Worth knowing either way.

As for the game plan... I've already laid out a few things I know D13 likes:
- good food, trying new restaurants (including visiting one she enjoyed before)
- making a playlist for the drive
- bringing some games, activities we all enjoy

The nuclear option which I have not yet proposed (and hate to introduce) is the outright bribe - shopping.  We're going to a place that has *great* shops, and she's always looking for another hoodie...  I almost always say no to shopping requests, but I could let her know that it's on the menu.  It's an equally slippery slope, and likely just as bad a precedent in the other direction.

Thanks for the JADE alternatives, that's just what I need - although D13 is quickly developing antibodies to this: "Why are you interrogating me?" and "I just want some time to myself" - with a lot of force.  I respond calmly, but with appropriate concern and try not to push too hard.  I'm sure this is also reported back to STBX in some way.  Ironically, the bullying tactics that my STBX has often deployed are being rapidly transferred to D13...  I've neutralized them once or twice, so I know she is still reachable.  e.g., one time D13 told me that I hate the dog (one of STBX's talking points).  A short while later, when D13 yelled at the dog, I pointed out that I know that she doesn't hate the dog, and that sometimes I feel the same way when the dog doesn't listen - it can frustrating. She looked like a lightbulb went off - big eyes - affirmative nodding. 

kells76 came on strong but she's right.  The policies you set in place will either support you or enable others to sabotage you.  You can't start gifting away your time with the kids or the sabotaging parent will feel enticed, enabled and empowered to assault your parenting boundaries.

As for the therapy.  Actually it is good for the kids to have counseling and courts love counseling.  You should be glad too... as long as the counselor isn't gullible to everything the other parent slickly manipulates.

Be aware that though you can't stop the other parent from contacting or sitting in on part of the sessions, just as she can't stop you from doing so either.  You have just as much right as she does.  Are you able to take the kids in for sessions too?  Then you can start each visit with a few minutes for an overview of background and concerns before the kids start their session.

I recall that my then-spouse started counseling for our then 3 year old as soon as we separated, the temp order gifted her temp custody so she was able to block me from access or input for the first year or so.  She was using the sessions to develop negative advocates for her to claim I was a bad dad, sight unseen.  Finally once we had the final decree we alternated bringing my son to the sessions and every session started with a brief counselor-parent discussion, then the rest of the session was counselor-patient, the parent waited out in the lobby.  If anything came up that concerned the counselor then she'd speak with me for a couple minutes about it afterward.

I think some of it was play therapy due to his age.  For example, one time she remarked to me that they had discussed whose private parts (what a bathing suit covers) he could touch.  He had answered, my mother's.  The counselor made sure I knew she'd reviewed it with him.

A thought on dealing with D13's "Why are you interrogating me... I just want time to myself" statements:

She may be unskillfully sharing that she's getting overwhelmed, and does really need to come back to baseline. I'd recommend reading pages 20-23 of Childress' "Ju-Jitsu Parenting" article, on "The Tap-Out", to learn some strategies for how to make those moments positive for your relationship with her.

https://drcachildress.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Ju-jitsu-Parenting-Fighting-Back-from-the-Down-Position-Childress-2013.pdf

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I agree with FD, find a way to also be involved with D13's counselor. Is she going in person, or is this remote?

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This is the HARDEST stuff, and you're in the thick of it. You're giving it your all, we see that, and you're open to learning and trying new ways with your kids. Please give yourself some credit for the massive amount of energy, effort, and love you're investing in your kids in a really difficult time. Keep going step by step and one day at a time. Find some way to relax tonight, too, even if it's "just" a nice can of soda or a dumb cat video online. Give yourself that break for a little bit.

I've read and re-read Childress about a dozen times this month.  It's been a huge help, and your earlier comments echo the concepts perfectly.  Thanks again.

D13's counselor is, amazingly, in-person.

When D13 started counseling, stbx and I agreed to alternate taking her, but so far it has not worked out. 

A small update I'm digesting: Last night, stbx proactively said that she spoke with her "sources"  (likely her therapist, possibly D13's counselor), and was advised to avoid forcing a screaming kid to get in a car, but also to avoid getting to that situation in the first place. Of course there was no specific comment, proposal, or action item, and I feel like it was possibly a lip service trap.  However I have a bit of time with D13 between now and Friday when we depart, which I plan to use to engage her in planning the trip.

Sidenote, I did ask stbx if D13 has had her period - no.  She might be anxious about this happening when she's away / not with mom.

SO glad to hear that! It makes a big difference.


Does the C know that that was the agreement? I'm assuming the C sees who brings D13?


She can say a lot of things, and she can say any number of people told her stuff. We are wired to believe what people tell us; unfortunately with BPD that can bite us.

Her using the word "forcing" suggests to me that nobody told her that. I think she's making it up or, at best, reinterpreting something.

This is your stbx coming up with a reason for D13 to not go on the trip. If stbx can induce D13 to that state when it's time for you to go, then she's going to point right back at this and be like "Well, I told you what all the professionals said, and now I'm the good mom for following their directions and not forcing a screaming child to go... you're the bad guy for ignoring the professionals, who all agree with me".

I think it's a setup for Mom to wind up D13 to emotional overload when it's time to take off, and then be "justified" about it.

The ideal situation actually would not hinge on whether or not D13 is screaming/activated. The ideal situation is -- you and stbx are a united front that is consistent about "yes, all 3 of you are going on the trip, both of us agree". If the "go/no go" variable is D13's attitude, then she is being overempowered to make adult decisions. The variable should be what you and stbx are united about.

Strongly, strongly recommend that you individually (not you and stbx together, at least not at first) meet with D13's C before the trip. Maybe raise the concern that you don't want your D to be parentified by being in a position to choose whether the trip happens or not... there are so many changes in the family right now, and you want to take that weight off of her and find a way for you and stbx to present a united front -- after all, you both have agreed to alternate weekend trips, so you're starting a "mom's time/dad's time" schedule, and you know it's critical for the parents to be united in supporting the kids with the schedule transition. As you plan to present a united front with stbx when it's her time for her trip, you're wondering how to make sure that you and she present a united front for YOUR trip. Something like that.


Really glad to hear it's been helpful. I remember feeling relief that a professional "got it"... even a professional far away whom I'd never met. Just felt less alone, and like I had more resources.

Thanks, all.

Mini update. I spoke with D13's C today. C immediately offered that she already spoke with STBX, and already knew about the trip.  Some very telling comments:

- agreed 100% that D13 should not drive the bus, it's a slippery slope, etc.
- has "a clear sense of what's going on at home between the parents, based on tone and body language" (implied that she's met with STBX in person, but I did not drill down to confirm)
- told STBX to support dad, otherwise it will come back to bite her
- told me to "remain positive, it will only serve you well in the long run"

Needless to say, I felt a bit better after the call today.

I also sat down with D13 and D10 and showed them pictures from the last time we took this trip with mom ~3 years ago.  I explained that when thinking about this weekend, I could pick someplace 100% new, or we could do something that's already familiar - and with changes in our family, I thought it would be good to go back to someplace that's familiar.  Looking at the pictures, D13 lit up a bit and recalled "yeah that place was awesome".  I asked her if she was feeling better about the trip, and she said yes.

So it will be interesting to see how things play out between now and when we hit the road on Friday, but generally feeling a little bit better.

Yes! Awesome to hear. Hang in there. Great job on giving the kids age-appropriate choices about the trip.

Thanks again for following along.

Had a good trip with the kids, although my STBX texted them throughout the trip and continuously on the day we were en route home... 

Some small progress is a new set of stips to include 50/50 parenting time.  I find myself wondering if it's a tactic, i.e., she has no intention to sign, and it's a distraction while she prepares to move out.

In any case, she's asked to have the kids for the first two weeks, which also coincides with the first two weeks of school.

I've countered that we should simply implement the 50/50 schedule.

Today I received a message from my oldest daughter - already parentified and aligned with her mom, but not 100%, yet - as follows:

"Hello. It would make me so much more comfortable if I could be with mom the first 2 weeks of school. We start school on a Wednesday, then starting Saturday we have a four day weekend (sat-tues.) Then we have another 3 day school week (Wednesday-Friday). Here is my proposal: I could either stay with you on the four day weekend (if I’m not going to the Knott’s that weekend) or I could come over 4 nights for dinner with you. You keep saying that you want me to be happy, and I would be so so so so much happier if I could just stay with mom those 6 days of school. Thank you so much!"

I've never received a note like this from her before.  I'm not even sure that she wrote it entirely on her own, although it's possible.

I could use some input on how to respond, knowing that whatever I write will go to her mother, and to the attys, and likely to a GAL or parenting coordinator at some point in the future...

I also know that where alienation is in play, and I have reason to believe that it is, that time is the enemy - so I'd like to find a way to get her on board with the new schedule sooner rather than later, and avoid a nearly ~2 week gap between STBX's move out, and the first sleep over at "home".

I know that asking the right questions is the key.

Thoughts?  TIA.

This is really hard stuff. I notice myself getting activated as I read it because it reminds me so much of what DH and I went through. So I will offer some thoughts and I'm sure others will come along with support as well.

Parentification of kids is dysfunctional. It elevates them in the family structure to be "equal to" or "above" a parent, often in a coalition with another parent, and in a position to "judge" the parenting of the first parent. It's intoxicating -- kids want it, because it feels so good in the moment -- but like any drug, deeply damaging.

You did great making sure all the kids went with you on the trip. Now, the next step is to day by day keep nipping these role reversals/boundary pushes in the bud.

Don't respond to D12 yet.

Consider something like this: Get an appointment/consultation with D12's counselor as soon as you can, to talk about implementing the schedule, and this text. Once it's set, consider letting xW know: "Hey, I'm meeting with D12's C to learn how to best implement the schedule. You're welcome to come along, it's at X time Y date."

Whether xW comes or not, you need to show that text to the C and figure out how to get ahead of what's going on -- your xW weaponizing your D's against you and against any kind of structure, scheduling, and your appropriate parental authority. If I'm remembering correctly, the C agreed that D12 should not be "driving the car" on these decisions, yes? And xW sort of agreed, or at least knew C's position?

Best case: you, xW, and C are all together, and C says "parents make decisions about schedules, not kids, you two need to implement the schedule starting now, putting it off falsely empowers the kids to believe that they can make adult decisions, I recommend you start schedule today" (or whatever is healthy). You get some kind of written/witnessed agreement with xW that the two of you will follow the professional's recommendations about scheduling

Good case: it's just you and C, but there is some kind of email or memorialization of C's recommendations, given to xW

Basically, there needs to be some kind of "thing" you can point to, to get you out of the "persecutor" role that xW is trying to put you in. She's also trying to stonewall on presenting a united front with you. That's what kids need -- the two parents saying "this is how it's going to be, it's our job to make these decisions together for you even if sometimes you don't feel happy about them right away"

But she wants to make you the bad guy who is "forcing" the schedule and "not listening" to D12's voice, so that she can be in a pathological alliance with D12, whose induced "loyalty" to Mom is for Mom's emotional benefit.

If after meeting with the C there's some communication between you and D12, do your best to have it be something like:

(finding validation target): "Honey, I'm so glad you felt like you could share your feelings and wants with me. That's so important!"

(truth part of SET): "Mommy and I make the schedule together."

or something like that.

Basically -- if you try to engage with the content of D12's text, it legitimizes her unhealthy position in the family hierarchy, where she is being placed by Mom's pathological need for emotional support and alliance.

Try to find a valid validation target, and after talking with D12's C, see if it's appropriate to reinforce that you and Mom are a united front when it comes to the schedule. Get the C's backing, and be ready to propose in front of C and xW that "you both agree to abide by the C's recommendations". Otherwise it's a power struggle and you are being positioned to lose.

Sorry this is happening.

Wow, thanks.

The good news is that I have a 1:1 call with D13's C tomorrow.

It will be near impossible to do a 3-way with STBXW.

The bad news is that the C is supposedly away until the end of Sept. after this point.

I suspect that the weekend away is already confirmed and that this is a setup.  However the fallback simply means that we implement the schedule as already proposed, so that the kids are with me before the weekend.  This lines up so that the kids will be with their mother on her birthday in Oct.  Further down the line, the schedule also projects to the kids with mom for Halloween, and with me for Thanksgiving and Christmas. I'm already prepared to trade Christmas for New Years... 

I need to read up on other details to get into stipulations, i.e., tie-breakers.  Hard to anticipate everything.

Thanks again.

Do you think it'd work to forward her the text beforehand, just so she has it to look at? May as well be as many steps ahead as you can. Of course it depends on the relationship you have with the C.


Would she sabotage/interrupt? Stonewall/say "I'm not available then, but I am (at this other time that doesn't work for you)"?

Yeah, having a pwBPD directly in a session where you're trying to do actual problem-solving is... an experience. Any way to get a solid 30 min in with the C first, then "invite" xW to "share her thoughts"?

Basically what I'm wondering is -- if xW isn't held accountable by a professional in person to do the schedule, she'll keep trying to wiggle out of it: "Well, you never invited me to the session where you and C apparently agreed on it, so I'm not required to follow the schedule".

Wondering if there's a "win win" here where you and C get private time to work out path forward, but then xW "feels like" she also had input, and therefore has more buy-in/accountability. Or, maybe you get 45 min with the C and then C calls Mom for the last 15.


Can you ask her to leave both you and xW with "homework"/"an assignment" to do during this time period? And maybe D13 as well?

Maybe: "Follow the 50/50 schedule as written below. D13 gets input for 2 day changes (i.e. 48 hours total); if the change is from Dad's to Mom's, then Dad gets equivalent makeup time; if the change is from Mom's to Dad's, then Mom gets equivalent makeup time. If the change includes an overnight, then the makeup includes an overnight. The makeup time happens in September. When I get back, we review how it went, get feedback from all family members, and make any changes I see are necessary". Or something like that, where D13 gets an appropriate amount of "input" that is NOT "driving the car" and doesn't let her just do what Mom wants by weaseling out of time with you, or saying that "dinners are the same as overnights".


If this is far enough down the road, can you "get in front of this" and propose giving Mom that weekend only and getting your makeup weekend/days SOONER? NOT after. That could take you out of the "persecutor" role of "you don't listen to what I want to do, you just force me to do what you want"... if the fun weekend is really what D13 wants, but she's using unskilled and indirect communication (influenced by Mom) to try to get it, then see if you can brainstorm with C a way to (OK, and don't say this out loud) put Mom in a double bind. Mom is setting things up so you look like the bad guy who always gets what he wants and never listens to the kids. If you can get in front of that by offering to trade time (with your makeup time coming first), so that the kids can enjoy the fun time with Mom... where's the problem? Surely that would solve it? If "the issue" is "we want to do this fun activity with Mom" and you're like "sure, of course, Mommy and I will trade times, so you guys are with me the next 4 days!"... but there's still "a problem"... then you know what's up, and any C worth their salt will see it too.

About birthdays... most states and county courts are consistent, the schedules typically alternate parents for the children's birthday's.  So one one year you get the kids on their birthdays, the alternate year the ex gets them.  Unless you write down in a court order something different.

It's possible that somewhere the parents' birthdays are also included in such schedules, but I'm not aware where those jurisdictions might be.  Is this something to get ahead of, your ex's expectations that parents always get the kids on their own birthdays too?  Or, if you do agree to that, make sure YOU get equal treatment.

Some parents here recognized there was no way to resolve this matter to everyone's agreement so what they did was to let the kids have doubled events.  A few days earlier or later you could have your own events with the kids on your time.  Neat idea, right?

Review your county's published list of "standard" holiday schedules.  Edit or strike out whichever ones you both agree won't apply.  Generally some of them won't apply to your family but I found out the hard way that an entitled parent will abuse an over-long list.  We had never scrutinized our county's lengthy holiday list and one winter I gave her a one week vacation notice between major holidays.  Well, to sabotage my vacation time she replied that for the first time ever she wanted our son for Kwanzaa.  It ended up in court (long afterward of course) and her defense was: though she was not of Jewish descent she wanted to observe it.  My lawyer swooped in and asked her repeatedly to describe this Jewish Kwanzaa (it is not Jewish).  It was the one instance listed in the court decision where it stated she was "not credible", subdued courtspeak for liar.

Did you notice that you barely have an agreement for 50/50 and the first exception is wanting two weeks?  I'm guessing that no one mentioned you'd therefore get the following two weeks?

When court started us on a 50/50 schedule our Custody Evaluator recommended a 3-2-2-3 (5-2-2-5) schedule.  One parent gets Mon-Tue overnights, the other parent gets Wed-Thu overnights and they alternate the Fri-Sat-Sun weekends.

My court allowed vacations up to 2 weeks in length with a total of 3 weeks max per calendar year.  Let that be the only time for such lengthy stays.

Also not aware of where that's boilerplate. DH and kids' mom did agree to that in their plan, though it's nonstandard.


That'll be a VERY helpful mentality going forward, if you need to cede some holidays so she feels like she's "winning". Just do your version... earlier  lol  this has been very successful for us. We do early Christmas with the kids every year and it's been a nice break from trying to squeeze it in on Christmas Eve.


That could be a play you make if getting xW to agree to follow the schedule doesn't happen. I wouldn't lead with it, though. But if there's no compromise/collaboration about the whole 2 week thing, and xW keeps weaponizing the kids about it, then play the "oh, of course... so then the kids are with me for the next 2 weeks solid". But I'd see that as more of a Plan D than Plan A.

Again, this is more long-term stuff, and I know you have a more acute thing to solve right now.

D13's C missed the call yesterday, I have to assume that she's already away until the end of Sept.  I need to address this on my own with D13 and STBXW...  A little bit jammed on how to proceed.

In parallel, STBX sent emails...
- accusing me of not supporting extra curriculars
- asking me to agree to have the same rules in both houses
- asking me to agree to after-school schedules - I WFH and I expect that she doesn't want the kids to stop by my house instead of going directly to her house on "her" days.

For extra curricular activities, the main thing is that STBX wants to keep our two oldest in a dance school in our old town - we moved two years ago. She previously wanted out, didn't like the director, but now doesn't want to disappoint the kids. Traveling to/from this place means extra hours in the car each week. There are decent options in our new town, but this is her chance to get me to be the bad guy and tell the kids they have to change dance schools...

For rules/schedules, it's a play for control, and I recognize the trap, but I'm not sure how to respond.  This stuff really jams me up...

These points are a sideshow, because we're still negotiating stipulations and separation of furniture/property.

The good news is that she will be out of the house at this time next week.

The bad news is that she will probably attempt to clean out the house on her way out, and there's little I can do about it.

sorry for all the questions, could you please remind me -- as I want to make sure I'm up to date with what's going on for you --

Do you have a lawyer?

Does your wife have a lawyer?

Is there any agreement about who the "referee" or "tiebreaker" is on putting together a parenting plan/schedule (i.e., "the mediator" is the ref, or "D13's C" is the ref...?)

What deadlines, if any, are there with putting together schedules?

There is an EOW schedule that is... proposed? binding? soon to be in effect...?

How far away is the old dance studio, and do the kids have any classmates also in your current town?

...

pwBPD often make plays based on "urgency" or "you have to decide now". I remember that from DH's ex. Can you give yourself a bit of time to see what on your list is actually, in reality, urgent/time based, and what just seems like it, because she's demanding?

Couple of thoughts:

extracurriculars: yes, driving would be a hassle, yet there are also a lot of changes going on in the family structure right now. Any way you can "agree for now" or "for the time being" that the kids dance there? It could deflate a lot of her antagonism and buy you some time.

Am I recalling correctly that as much as she huffs and puffs about "the kids need to be in THAT studio", you were actually the one driving them mostly?

Can you put her in a double bind -- "Sure, I agree with you that for now, the kids can stay at Studio A. Let's agree that on your days, you are in charge of transportation to/from, and on my days, I am in charge of transportation to/from." Let her put her money where her mouth is.

On your days, see if you can arrange a carpool for them with friends. If you get good vibes from any friends' parents, can you be vulnerable and just say, "Look, our family is in transition right now, and the kids love this studio and your kids. Would you be willing to help out with transportation for the next month (or 6 weeks, or some definite time frame)?" That would also buy you some time to slow down and think about it.

I know dance stuff is often seasonal. The kids may want to be in a winter show or spring show with their friends. End of Dec/start of Jan could be a natural transition time, as would June, if you can hold out that long. If you can make it through the end of the year, that could help the kids, deflate the conflict, and then you would have a "light at the end of the tunnel" for you and transportation.

Same rules in both houses: lol, obviously she means it's her rules at both houses. You could call her bluff and propose your rules for both houses, but I think it's too soon to joke like that, unfortunately. IDK if I'd even engage with that right now. If you think you have to, something like "thanks for your thoughts". It's really normal in two-household situations for rules to be different. She wants control. Yeah, maybe just don't engage on that one.

Agreeing on after-school schedules -- is that even doable yet? Does the dance studio have fall classes scheduled already? Would there be anything else to actually plan around?

Typical PP's are like "Parent A has kids 3pm (or whenever school is done) Monday through 3pm Wednesday. Parent B has kids 3pm Weds to 3pm Fri." etc etc etc". So I don't know why she wants to be more detailed unless it's what you're thinking, that she doesn't want the kids to be with you on her time. OK, so, on the one hand, that's sad. On the other hand, can you leverage that to get her to agree that "yes, both parents agree that the kids will not be with Parent A during Parent B's PT, and vice versa, unless both agree in writing" or something? So that way, she has tied her own hands, and can't be like "the kids SO want to be with me during your weekend".

She's making all these moves that she wants to use to constrict you, but she won't be happy if they're evenly applied. But no sane judge, mediator, or whoever will be like "if the kids are at Dad's they can always go to Mom's, but if the kids are at Mom's they CANNOT go to Dad's... yup sounds fair".

Keep turning her proposals back on her and agree that "it sounds great, let's both agree to the same terms" or "Are you agreeing to have that rule for both of us equally" or something like that. I suspect she's a lot of talk but not a lot of either followthrough (transportation to dance) or equality (rules for you but not her).

Wondering if all her control maneuvering is because she KNOWS she's the one moving out and why.

In terms of her cleaning out the house: are there any items that the kids would want to stay? I.e., it would not be good if she took X items to her place (perhaps for leverage to entice the kids over?) Can you preemptively store mission-critical stuff short-term somewhere, just to head her off?

Birth certificates, passports, documentation, memorabilia, photos...? Again, not sure what "flavor" of BPD she is... she may not be that, uh, devious, as to take stuff to "bait" the kids over, or practical/critical stuff to make life hard for you. As you said, she may take stuff just to take stuff.

In that case, if she's probably just gonna take random stuff, can you, as weird as it sounds, deprioritize it? Not give it a reaction? In a way, if she does pull a stunt like taking the couch, table, TV, chairs, shelves, etc... she will be showing the kids who she is, and you don't have to fight that.

No problem, thanks for helping me think this through.

- We both have attys
- No tiebreaker discussion yet - since our first hearing is mid-Oct, I was thinking to take the 50/50 parenting schedule as step one, and to save tie-breaker provisions for the judge in ~6 weeks.  Just getting to 50/50 is a big win - she's been adamantly opposed to this from the beginning.
- Proposed schedule is 2/2/3 with alternating weekends, so if the stipulations are signed, we will have an EOW plan.  Proposed start is next week to coincide with her move out date, however we're still going back and forth and nothing is signed yet.
- Old dance studio is about 30 minutes away without traffic, sometimes 45-60 mins. If the schedule is weekends only, it traffic should not be an issue.  The kids have been going to the same place for 4-5 years, but their best friends just changed to a different studio.  These are friends from before our move 2 years ago.  Basically, we moved and continued going to the old studio.  STBX handled most of it, I would typically watch our 3rd/youngest while the two older kids went to dance, but we'd switch up some times.  We've discussed changing to a new studio for some time, for multiple reasons, but STBX has a strong aversion to certain changes - probably another type of control behavior. 


I use this approach sometimes, it can be effective in terms of influencing outcomes, however it can invite other accusations.  In this case, we are at a major transition for the kids as she moves, and as school starts, so in fairness to all, especially the kids, some decisions must be made sooner rather than later.

It's already agreed that we'll each cover the kids activities during our individual time, however she has asserted (not asked) that she will take our youngest to girl scouts on Sundays because it's moms only. I asked to see a copy of the policy via email, she predictably exploded...  I offered to drop off and pickup, but she asserted that she intends to take D6 for this time.  It's not a weekly activity, and most of D6's friends participate, so we do need a solution.  I recognize that all parents have the dilemma of over-scheduling and limiting flexibility for other weekend activities/trips, vs. regular/routine participation and the social benefits that come with it.  Feeling my way through this.  I know I can participate with cookie sales and some volunteer activities, and that there is no formal "moms only" policy.  I'm fairly certain that STBX has already smeared me to the other moms - one of which is her former affair partner's wife.  It's a small town, not sure there's any way to mitigate some of this other than moving, maybe some day. So I'm not exactly itching to hang out with the moms anyway. For now, I'm prioritizing my kids' interests ahead of my own.


Rules - I appreciate your sense of humor - lol.  Let's just say that she does not respond well to friendly sarcasm... or any comments re: equity, reciprocity, or fairness.  It's always got to be her way.  Modulating here is tricky because lack of response can (often will) be perceived as agreement, e.g., "Well, if you didn't agree, I would think that you would be mature enough to let me know like a functional adult!"

Maneuvering...  you nailed it. Her risk of exposure is high and getting higher as we get closer to the hearing. She knows she's messed up, in multiple ways.


She's communicated with the kids before communicating with me about what she intends to take.  I find out indirectly from the kids, who are already bought-in to her plan.  D6 is excited about move day, because she's also been promised a party at the new house for all her friends (and STBX's mom friends).

I've been unable to get STBX to agree to a list - she explodes and says "fine, it's just stuff, you keep everything!" - the attys continue to go back and forth, and I've already offered/agreed to give STBX most of the stuff since my primary goal - 50/50 parenting - is finally in the mix.  I worry that this is all for show and that there will be no signed stipulations and we'll end up going in front of the judge in ~ 6 weeks with STBX attempting to establish a new status quo.

There is very little I'm concerned about - it's mainly the cost of replacing some of the kids' furniture in short order so that they are comfortable when they return to their home a few days after "moving" to mom's new home, e.g., D13 will need a new bed, mattress, etc.  Not to mention the rest of the house.  As discussed, STBX's idea of "equitable distribution" is problematic, although we do seem to be in sync re: premarital stuff and heirlooms remaining with original owners.  I cannot afford to fully refurnish the house, so it's a bit of stress.  STBX says things like "you completely take for granted that I am leaving you the snow blower" (purchased used for $300 ~10 years ago) - as if that makes up for taking a lot of things that we actually need on a daily basis.

I instructed my atty to say that no child support payments will start until the stips are signed, so hopefully that will provide some motivation.

There's a lot going on between D13's parentification/alienation and day-to-day navigation of the D process, keeping the kids occupied in the last days of summer before school starts next week, scrounging craigslist for furniture, and, you know...  regular work.

I'm truly ambivalent about the move - glad STBX will out of the house next Monday, but also terribly sad about what this means for the kids when they are alone with her. 

It's been just over a year since I discovered her affair and started to see who she really is - and learn about B Cluster PDs.

I've learned a lot, and I know this move needs to happen - it's the uncertainty of how to best support my kids going forward that gives me heartache.

Thanks again for following along.

Child support or temporary spousal support typically is based on calculations of income and other resources.  If she's hiding income or assets there there is risk of a lousy support order.  For whatever reason, my ex never disclosed her income and so the lawyers agreed we'd credit her with an imputed minimum wage income.

You may feel getting an agreement for 50/50 is great - and it is - but when an entitled ex is involved you can keep going back to the court or mediator over all sorts of issues.  What if she decides to change pediatricians, dentists, schools, religious instruction, etc and you don't agree?  An equal 50/50 doesn't resolve such scenarios.  That is why courts prefer one parent has Decision Making or Tie Breaker or similar status.  The problem?  Mothers are typically defaulted to being in charge of the kids' custodial matters.

In my case I set one condition before making a recommended 50/50 settlement on Trial Day at the end of a two-year divorce process during which she was the two-year "temporary" custodial parent.  I was concerned she'd move around - and she did - and I'd have to uproot to stay close to my son.  My sole condition?  That I was the parent handling school matters.  Both lawyers insisted it didn't mean anything but it turned out I was right.  She caused more scenes at her own chosen school that within two months her school board gave me one day to register my kindergartner in my own nearby school district.  If I didn't have school authority then her school would have been stuck with her too.  Believe me, they were oh so glad to dump her.

For all who have been following along...  My uPWNPD/BPD / STBX moved out yesterday.

We signed stipulations on Sunday night, just prior to the move. Without going into too much detail, she was extra spicy in the days leading up to the move, but we got through it. 

I'm still jammed by certain things, but other behaviors have become predictable enough to be manageable, thanks in large part to this community.

At the last minute, she agreed to 50/50 parenting time as part of the stips.  Our first hearing is in about 6 weeks, so I don't anticipate any major change of circumstances or new claims that would justify a change at that point.  I believe she caved on parenting time in part due to the discovery process - in which her risk of exposure was/is steadily increasing.  I'm apprehensive about what's ahead, but will continue to document, document, document and continue to implement jiu-jitsu parenting.

Reading Splitting, among other resources, well in advance, has been key to getting to this point.

Since we're no longer cohabitating, I think it's time to let this thread close.  Again, thanks to everyone for the support over these past ~ 6 months.

There's still a long road ahead until D is complete, and an even longer road of parallel parenting as our youngest is 6, so a new thread is a real possibility.  Until then - Never a dull moment!