BPDFamily.com

Hello all.  You all have been so helpful in my journey.

I’ve had one online therapy session but not sure it was a good fit. I have a couple more therapists scheduled so hopeful.

I’ve also almost made a final decision on a lawyer. My goal is end of month to have one formally retained.

Current struggles...

I’ve accepted that I have lived mostly a lie for 25 years. Most I didn’t know was a lie.  As the tides turned and the tipping point tipped, it has become more and more apparent that none of it was real for UBPDh. I certainly was living as if it were.

I’ve come to terms with this globally. I’ve accepted that it is not within my power to fix or in any way correct H. Not my job, couldn’t even if it were.

So the struggle is coming to terms with how I couldn’t see this.  How I allowed myself to be treated this way...for soo long. How could I write off bad behavior and in little ways excuse it or turn the other cheek?

I’m not struggling with knowing I need to leave or accepting who he is. I’m having much more difficulty dealing with who I am.

Did I really not see it?  Why did I give up so much — family, friends, career?  When these things were happening they seemed minor things but they persisted for years and now I have no one. Not one person who would help me if I needed help. What kind of person am I that this is where I am?

I want to blame him but who am I that I couldn’t, or wouldn’t see it?

This is my first struggle. Anyone else go through this?  Thoughts?

My second struggle is more simply said.  I can’t get over the hurdle of starting the divorce. I just know I’m opening years of anguish. Literally there is nowhere to go. Houses around here are renting for 5k+ month, all houses for sale are going to bidding wars (not that I can buy now). So I start and then we fight for 2 years...with nowhere to go.

Any ideas how to overcome the fear?  It’s not like I can just go.  I might be able to make him go...but how angry if I try but don’t succeed. Any recommendations?

Hey ubpdhelp, welcome back  :hi:

Glad you're feeling empowered and vetting therapists. When you finally get one that's a good fit, it's a real gift. It'll happen... give it time.


Your question reminds me of when I was younger (early 20's) and had a sort of friends with benefits relationship with a housemate. Looking back, awkward! But when you're in your 20's, well...

Anyway, we never really talked about it at first. Just kind of were both lonely, and it was convenient, etc. We tried talking about it later, but that didn't change our behaviors -- lots of non-communication, not defining our relationship or making anything official or explicit.

Looking back, I was able to understand what I was doing better when I asked myself:

What was I getting out of that?

There must have been something about that setup that worked for me... that gave me something. Something important enough that we kept it going for quite some time.

So, if I were in your shoes today, yeah, there's the question of "what did I see/what did I not see", and also, the question -- what do you think you were getting out of that life setup? What did it do for you?

...

For me, the answers were uncomfortable -- I was afraid of rejection, so as long as we weren't "in a relationship", I couldn't be rejected. I was lonely and I was hurting from a previous breakup. Waiting on pins and needles every weekend to see "will we hook up or not" without making any healthy or explicit communication about it... it distracted me, big time. I could focus on those feelings, focus all my energy on "when will he be home, what's he up to, him him him" instead of feeling older, more painful feelings.

So it's a question you could consider asking yourself.

all the best;

kells76

This is the way it worked for me.     

Not all of my relationship was bad.    Some of it was wonderful.   What was true for me was the 'bad' parts fit my world view like a glove in many ways.   So many ways I couldn't see the forest through the trees so to speak.

Broadly speaking.   Very Broadly Speaking.     So Broadly Speaking its almost not helpful, there are several categories of people who end up with the disordered.

Narcissists tend to partner with pwBPD.   a Narcissist gets the need for adulation met when the pwBPD is in the idealization phase.   and a Narcissist gets to be the 'better' person in the relationship when the BPD acts out.

CoDependents.   someone with an excessive emotional or psychological reliance on a partner, typically one who requires support on account of an illness or addiction.  CoDependents find the neediness of the BPD addictive.

Emotional Caretakers.   Some one who has trouble knowing what limits are.   Some one with low self esteem.   Some one who routinely ignores their own needs and beliefs.   :check:

Depressives or some one with Dysthymic disorder :check:   Persistent feeling of low mood, worthlessness, hopelessness and lack of motivation.

These characteristics might not reach the diagnostic stage.   Or they might.

I tend to fall in the categories of an Emotional Caretaker and Depressive.     Margalis Fjelstad describes Emotional Caretaker in her book.   And then she put my picture next to the definition.    :(      I spent my childhood with my grandparents, to escape a mentally ill mother and to be a 'helper' to my grandparents because they were experiencing health issues.   So literally from a very young age I was trained to look out for, caretake, and put someone else's needs first.     It was my job.    and its automatic for me.     when my need to caretake ran into a person who had a need to be taken care of... we ran to all sorts of extremes.   we both doubled down on what we thought was normal.   until it clearly became abnormal.

and I am depressive.   my depression fit wonderfully with my ExpwBPD's mania.    Her mania got me up and moving and trying new things which I won't typically do without some type of outside encouragement.    Her emotional swings were so intense they could actually lift me out of my depression.    it was almost better than prozac there for a while.  (joking)    I think about 60% of members here are depressed in some way.   

The thing I found to be true is that the extreme behaviors that existed in my relationship brought all of this into high relief.    but that it took some time to see it because all of this was just so normal and ordinary for me.   I assumed that everyone felt this way and they just didn't talk about it.    these are deeply engrained life long patterns for me, that normally cause no significant problems.   they are part of me like brown eyes and gray hair.   I didn't have the language to describe a lot of what was going on.  When I read  Fjelstad's question of: are you overly empathetic, self-sacrificing, generous, perfectionistic, deferential, more willing to put other's needs before your own, and uncomfortable with conflict?   very faintly little tiny bells rang off in the distance.

I think we all have combinations of where we fall on the spectrum and why that lines up with our people with PD's.      after all each of us is unique.   and I think after spending time with a disordered person we are all hyper sensitive to any label that suggest we are defective or bad or not functioning perfectly ourselves.   Its a real wrestling match to identify our patterns without labeling ourselves as defective.

my two cents.

'ducks

Hi Kells...that all makes sense.  I’ve been pondering all of this as I’m bouncing around empowerment and feelings of defeat.

At a basic level I thought I was doing right by my family and that my H’s more worldly view was in my best interest.  It never occurred to me that his “support” was not genuine. I thought it was a partnership and I trusted him. He was making me more and more dependent on him, skewing my view of how family treated me or friends. Told me multiple times I had none. But, “Jane is not your friend, if she were she would have ______,you should be careful or she’ll take advantage of you”.  When in reality it was just planting a lot of doubt. But I trusted him. I believed I was naive (I grew up in the Midwest, he was from the big city) and he was showing me how the world worked.

I thought we were in this together. I thought we were a team. Until we weren’t. But truthfully the red flags were probably there for a lot longer than I realized.

Thanks kells!

I was lost in that darn forest for so long.


I know this is broad.  I believe my H is primarily NPD, with a splash of BPD.  Does he attract himself?  That’s the NPD in him.

I have trouble feeling co-dependent (maybe I don’t like the way it sounds).

I suspect by the above I would be considered an emotional caretaker. I believe I have always been. In most cases, I don’t think it’s so horrible (or is it?) IF the recipient doesn’t take advantage.

I think back to a conversation that was relayed to me by my H.  When he first came to visit my family he was talking to my mom and she mentioned that I helped with my ex-bf’s (the one husband kind of knew) brother who had a terminal illness. She told H that she always thought I would be a nurse because I liked to take care of people.

She past away a short time later, which didn’t impact one way or another the conversation.  But in the last year or so I’ve wondered if that was a starting point or confirmation that I might be pliable.

My moms death I think made me cling to familiar and H was familiar and like you said, you get used to what you know. But mostly things weren’t bad in the beginning. They progressed. And progressed.

I don’t know that I’m depressive. I really do start 95% of my days in a good mood. Sure, a little depressed at my current situation but I can separate that as current situation vs where I’m going.

Can someone be just a caretaker and be that for 25 years?


Thanks ‘ducks. You sharing your stories is helpful in so many ways. I’m sorry you’ve been through so much, for so long. You really seem to have a handle on where you are now.

I have to remind myself we all live somewhere on the spectrum. I do see right/wrong, good/bad — but in a very big way.  Mostly around treating people with kindness, doing no harm.  But then it leaves me with thinking H is wrong.

That said, I’ve reached a point I don’t need to prove or persuade or convince. We can just see things differently and I can choose what’s right for me.

Thanks ‘ducks!

Oh I think you are 100% correct.   I think your husband is primarily NPD also.  Keep in mind that there aren't firm fixed dividing lines between any of the characteristics we are discussing.    These are loose categories.    And that NPD and BPD are so close, over lap so much that its difficult for professionals to tell them apart.    Painting with broad strokes again,   both NPD and BPD present in very similar ways.   For an NPD or BPD the world view is 'you need to take care of me perfectly, love me exactly the way I need, be exactly what I want'.     For a pwBPD that springs from having an instable sense of self - "I don't know what I am or who I am so you need to love me perfectly to make me better. "   For a pwNPD that springs from having a fractured sense of self - "I can't be anything but perfect, if things aren't perfect clearly you made them that way".



I don't think its horrible at all.    Some of us are depressive, some of us somewhere else on the spectrum.     Some of us can play the piano, some of us can't, some are good at math, some are great at baseball.    Its a combination of characteristics and what we choose to do with them.   Being great at baseball doesn't make you better/worse than the person who can play the piano.


Liking to take care of people is part of being an emotional caretaker.    Especially if we put other people's needs, wants or thoughts ahead of our own.   




Depression can often manifest in other ways than a feeling of sad or low mood.  A chronic low grade depression can present as no motivation, difficulty making decisions, difficulty focusing on yourself or taking care of yourself, low self esteem and paradoxically - being hyper busy, while having low energy most days.     I'm not disagreeing with you.    I am saying that depression is not sadness.


Sure.    of course.     what I learned when I went to stay with my grandparents was that to be in a stable and secure relationship you had to take care of people.    That was the unstated message but that is how I learned relationships work.   I never questioned that message.   I tend to be wired to be a fixer and a helper and I seriously doubt that will go away.    I doubt I want it to go away.   I am much more aware now that I need mature and reasonable limits around fixing and helping.     



I think when we all first arrive here we have been hit over the head with "you're wrong" "you didn't do that right"... that we are a little preoccupied with right/wrong, good/bad.    after all we have been stuck in a needs entitlement war that's been all about who is right, who is wrong, who is good/bad, who deserves more/less, who is better, who is worse.

what I think is that we need to really pay attention to the words we use to describe things.    some one smarter than me said "Words Create Worlds".   How we describe things creates how we experience/feel about things.     Think about your H being wrong.     Now think about your H being disordered.    Pay attention to how YOU feel as the description changes.   The word 'wrong' leads you down a certain path of thinking/feeling.    The word 'disordered' leads you down a different path.    This isn't about describing him accurately.    This is about creating flexible thinking for you... in your head... to allow for gentle problem solving.

'ducks

Hey...I'm so pleased that you are moving forward.  Especially that you are trying to connect with a T.  I would encourage you to keep your focus on finding a good fit with a T, since that help you sort out your values/feelings on the rest of the issues.

I simply can't imagine my life without my current T (PhD level psychologist).

One of the places were are similar is "shock" that we didn't "see it" earlier.

In my case I realized that I invalidated my wife for several years and made things far far worse.  From time to time I still carry guilt over that.

One of the things my T helps me with is to not beat yourself up over ignorance.  I simply didn't know that...didn't have experience with that...completely foreign to me how "the truth" could be hurtful (especially when "the truth" was you have a faithful husband)

Once you know better...do better, then let the past stay in the past.  (and yes...it sounds much simpler than it is)

Switching gears:  Try this on for size.  (it is/was true in my case).  I didn't trust myself for a long time after I "saw" the stuff I had missed/done. 

The basic thought process was that if I was ignorant and made  a mess of things "back then"...who is to say that I'm not ignorant now?  If you don't trust yourself...trust and confidence are kissing cousins, so it seems reasonable that you would be worried about "where to go".

Last:   I'm going to be in agreement with others that there is a big NPD streak in your hubby. 

The challenge/opportunity is how to use that to your advantage..to the advantage of your family.

Any thoughts there?

Best,

FF

Dear UBPDHelp-

I’m glad you’ve come back.  Like your other friends here, and you, I also believe your H’s weaknesses and cruelty are centered in NPD traits.  In behaviors he likely will sadly NEVER take responsibility for.  I’m so sorry for what you and your children have endured.  I endured much of the same in a 19-year marriage and then in my most recent 6.5 year relationship.  That’s the one that led me here.

My friend-  so many of the things your H has said to you, my exNPD/BPDbf said to me, all in his effort to keep me off balance, feeling “less than”, and to isolate me from anyone and everyone who he thought would strengthen me or encourage me to get out.  It truly IS so sad and almost predictable (now that I understand what goes on with pwNPD).

When I found this incredible site in 2017 and began to learn about BPD (desperately poured myself into it) and looked at the traits and the behaviors of my now ex NPD/BPDbf, there was something that wasn’t quite fitting.  I couldn’t understand what I was missing. 

And then finally in 2019, somewhere on this site, a poster mentioned NPD and a T named Dr. Ramani and her You Tube videos.  BOOM!  Watching those felt like I literally found air to breathe.  My feelings about my exBF AND myself changed almost overnight. 

I was no longer *afraid* of his RAGE or the belittling he would throw at me.  I stopped having bottomless compassion for him, and started having a bit of that feeling for myself.  That was necessary... I was the one being abused.  He wasn’t.

Those videos helped me see who and what he REALLY is.  I NEEDED to see that.  I now see him as *weak* rather than “frail”... and *PATHETIC* rather than “pitiful”.  And a person who doesn’t deserve or receive any more chances.  At least not from me.  He’s taken enough.  When you look very closely, a pwNPD takes way more than any partner should have to give.  But then you already know that.

His last RAGE, which took place because I asked 1) did you feed the dog?  2). Did you give the dog her meds?... was his LAST rage toward me.  I had decided ahead of time.

So UBPDHelp... please do yourself the honor of watching Dr. Ramani’s videos... for YOU.  Google “Dr. Ramani Narcissism”.  And watch the videos where she’s alone, not with the guy.  Each video is about 10-15 minutes and it doesn’t matter what order you watch them in.  They’ll give you knowledge, strength and understanding.  Of him for sure... and THEN you’ll better understand yourself.

Finally, I believe maybe it’s best not to question yourself for now.  I don’t think you need to figure out if you’re on a “spectrum” of any sort.  If you can, Please try to be easy on yourself, have some of the compassion for you that you clearly have for others.  You’ll go through your stages and your “whys” later.  And the best you’ll do is forgive yourself FOR yourself...

Sometimes, for years at a time, we just put our heads down and do what we believe we need to do.  That’s what we knew in those moments, in that time.  And then we see something else.  You’ve seen something else.  The feelings that matter now are yours and your kids.  The man is a grown up.  Leave him to his own, whatever that may be.

Please watch Dr. Ramani.

Warmly,
Gems

It kinda seems like you're punching down on yourself ... doesn't your H already do that?  :(

Being kind to yourself when you've been surrounded by anything but can feel terrifying. Recognizing that you are lovable, even if the first person to love you is you, can feel terribly painful.

Accepting that you are worthy can be one of the hardest things you do in life.

Sometimes it is less painful to believe you are less than, and if you have disordered people in your lives, you may be more susceptible to buying what they're selling.

The miracle happening is that you want something better for yourself. You believe there is something better than this. That's you, learning to care about yourself even if it feels strange.

Listen to that part of you! She ready  |iiii
 

It's hard when the reality piece is so financially punishing.

One small step at a time, exactly what you're doing. Taking a therapist for a test-drive, talking to lawyers. Sharing here.

It's already impressive how much you've done to show how important you are to yourself.

 :hug:

My mantra was one of the things formflier mentioned - I did the best I could with the knowledge I had.  Now that I know more, I can do better.

It's not fair to judge yourself based on what you know now.  Maybe you *should* have known better, but you didn't.  *Now* you know better, and you are taking steps to do better.  Getting a therapist.  Interviewing lawyers.  Looking for housing options.

Part of your therapy is going to be learning to forgive yourself and to stop blaming yourself for things that aren't necessarily your fault.  There's a lot of conditioning/emotional abuse you're going to have to unlearn.  I'm really excited for you that you are starting that journey.

EXACTLY!

And this is not a self help project. 

Consistent work with a T that you trust is the only method that I would trust.

Best,

FF

I'd echo the comments from worriedstepmom and FormFlier... don't beat yourself up.

BPD is insidious to begin with, and many of us who ended up in long term relationships with BPDers had some personality traits - typically positive ones - that they took advantage of in order to rope us in.  Our societal knowledge of BPD and other personality disorders is still developing, so it's not like the typical adult can recognize the signs of it ahead of time and understand what they're getting into.


You may have to relocate to an area with a lower cost of living; if you're not willing to do that, then I think you need stop thinking about leaving and start learning to cope with living with your H for possibly the rest of your life. 

Divorce isn't easy, especially with children involved.  You have to be willing to make some sacrifices & let go of a lot in order to take that leap.

Sure, I would say we have all been through it.  The fact that you gave up too much of yourself to maintain the relationship is a lesson.  Read 'The Black Hole Analogy' https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=319029.0

Its common, so dont think you are alone.

And dont own any more of the problems than is fair to you.  Own your own stuff, but dont own other peoples bad behavior because 'you didnt see it'.  The very nature of your focus on 'you', and what 'you did wrong'.  Or didnt do.  Speaks to your own tendency to try to take too much of the responsibility on yourself.  I would bet there are many things where you compromised and gave up for the sake of the relationship, but did not get the same reciprocity.    Which means work is needed on setting boundaries and enforcing those boundaries to 'take care of yourself' .  Something required even if in a relationship.  But that doesnt mean you need to feel bad about your own 'good' behavior that wasnt rewarded in return.

Why didnt you see all those things?  Doesnt really matter.  As a friend once told me: 

"Life is a series of lessons... if you dont learn that lesson the first time, dont worry, you will get that lesson again..."

So focus on the hear and now.  Once that is stable you can start thinking about the future path, which will include reflection on your past habits and learning and growing so you dont have to repeat the same lessons.

Give yourself time with a T.  It is a process.  I heard a comment once that to recover from a relationship takes 1 year for every 5 you were together.

There's also a bit of unraveling that happens when you work with a therapist to answer these questions.

You start to see how family of origin things imprinted on you in childhood, and how that conditioned who you were attracted to and then what you tolerated in adult relationships. 

I've had to learn that guilt can not be a guiding emotion for me because it was grossly distorted in childhood. I had a pathologic sibling who was violent but if I asked for help and he got in trouble because I told someone about it, I felt crippling guilt. My worth was inextricably tied to being stronger than the person abusing me. Stronger meant enduring it.

You may learn through therapy that there is a story you tell yourself, and it's tied to something (tolerating abuse) that no longer works for you.

Hello, hello!  :hug:

Wow, my love! We are KINDRED SPIRITS! I just joined this board a month or two ago and guess what?

I'm in 25 years, too! The last time he flipped out, cussed me out - and proceeded to cut off his wedding band (which magically reappeared fixed/on his finger days later) - "Broke me" - or perhaps I should say "AWOKE ME."

I literally felt like I snapped awake from a 25 year long coma! I was like - OMG! I Actually DON'T CARE that the did that. Matter of fact - I'm GRATEFUL! HE JUST SET ME FREE! OMG! I don't have to be "the bad guy" by leaving (or by staying, for that matter)!

Then - all the exact same questions your rolling around with - appeared to me, too. Where the hell have "I" been for the last 25 years? How did I allow myself to become a paranoid, shell of a being who existed only to keep peripheral eyes on him, peripheral ears on him (wherever he was in the house, to guage his moods), watch and edit everything I said, and after I WAS VICIOUSLY ATTACKED WITH "Eff you, you think you're so smart, you don't know a damn thing," etc. I would cry in fear that HE WAS GONNA LEAVE ME!

OMG!  (Yes, as a matter of fact, I AM about to complete my Ph.D. in June!) So, yeah, I AM smart. BUT - I let this happen to myself and make excuses! So I was self-blaming!

I, too, struggled with moving away from him physically. I have never lived alone before. Ever - not even an apartment.

So - I literally wrangled up every single resource I could, and I'm in the process of getting my own little townhouse. It was either "throw my money away in over priced rent" - or at least "throw it into EQUITY of property!"

I get that, too. But - if you don't have resources to buy - look into an apartment if you must. Check with friends, family, can you crash with them for a bit while ya look for options. Many places also have subsidized/rent controlled placed for those of us with income challenges. Sure, it won't be your "dream home" - but that's okay - it's only TEMPORARY!

You need to physically detach so you can work to refind and reclaim YOURSELF. Your life was given - individually and uniquely to YOU, exclusively! (It was Not given to him!) So - this is yours and all right of it is yours!

Sorry if I'm rambling, but I'm just so awe-struck at how SIMILAR our situations are!

In order to keep him as calm as possible, I have told him that I need space and that OUR ONLY HOPE OF POSSIBLY CONTINUING OUR MARRIAGE is that I have to leave on a "TRIAL SEPARATION." (He, of course is back to "honeymooning," love bombing, and promising the world, he'll never do it again - 25 years would say otherwise.)

I do feel a little guilty because he (although he is begging me to try to "heal" while we do some kind of "in house separation - I'm not even interested in that, and don't believe it's possible) believes that I'm merely "renting" a place for a year. He does not, yet, know that I'm getting a house. I figure I'll cross that bridge, ya know.

For now, it's just about getting out, and getting out safely.

So - just like everyone else has shared: big hugs to you! I'm sorry for your lost time - but YOU STILL HAVE THE REST OF IT, TO MAKE THE BEST OF IT. You deserve it!

Read, do research, watch the videos, educate yourself! Get support (a therapist is the best thing you can do to help you process the 25 year brainwashing you've undergone), and remember - your live was given to YOU - to live it how you want, doing and chasing whatever you feel - it was NOT given to him.

Stay strong - the pain WILL resolve, become managable, and distant! Survival IS POSSIBLE. The long-timers here can attest to that!

Keep posting, too, k? 

Good luck and know that your kindred spirit, Gem, is holding your hand!  :hi:

One thing I found that was true for me is that I place a very high value on loyalty. I don't believe in giving up on people I love, even if they turn out to have serious issues.

I also had a very poor skillset when it comes to setting boundaries, and, as LnL said, it stemmed from FOO dynamics that I uncovered in therapy.

I operated with the assumption that my ex didn't want to be the way he was, but he just needed help to figure out what his issues were so he could heal.

I couldn't imagine that anyone would really want to continue causing harm to those who loved him, and I thought love would heal him...or at least motivate him to want to be a better man (like Jack Nicholson in As Good As It Gets).

I also clung on because I didn't have a close relationship with my family and I was terrified of being completely alone.

It took me a while to realize that his ship was going down and he didn't care if he pulled me and the kids down with him as long as he could avoid being honest with himself.

There are many reasons why perfectly loving, intelligent, capable, caring people get wrapped up in long term abusive relationships. Give yourself grace...you're in good company here.

  This makes sense.  It’s funny (not haha funny), I see most things as some shade of gray and I accept people how they are — not hurting anyone, go about your business. With this I just seem to want to define...I think it’s part of my struggle to understand. And, as I recognize some repetitive behaviors, I start to remember others and try to determine if it was a BPD/NPD behavior or just disagreeable. Most days I do mostly recognize that it doesn’t matter. He can be whoever he is.  He is not allowed to hurt me or terrorize me or demoralize me or shame me AND double down that on the kids.  If he’s not willing to change (he’s not and I’m not asking), he can do him. I’m just going to do me...somewhere else.
Yep.  Tell my kids all the time that the world is a wonderful place because we’re all different. If we were the same, it would be so darn boring.  I wish I could sing.  I can’t, at least not well.  My younger kids and I always belt it out in the car. H usually turns the radio if I start singing. Oldest (closest to dad and presenting a few NPD traits — I got a “if you cared about me you would have remembered I had a work thing at 2:15 on Tuesday”) also prefers I don’t sing.

Keep in mind I’ve done a dozen things to support kid 1 in the last week, but they don’t count as caring, just that I lost track of some meeting that was mentioned in passing. I work 10 hrs a day and have 2 younger kids to take care of...kid 1 is an adult. Kid one also lashes out quite meanly if kid 1 “feels” insult. Such that simply asking a question often provokes an attack on others. I’m hoping it’s pandemic fatigue and temporary living situation but I have concerns. Another day.

 

I have been fatigued for 20 years with no known cause.

 
Thanks ‘ducks. Makes sense.

Right now, the disordered brings a little guilt. Not his fault, should I tolerate more b/c he can’t help it. Finally feel like I can say no to that.

 

This is a trip up for me.  To clarify, do you invalidate others with the same words?

I ask b/c I don’t seem to have the same trouble with others.  I’ve stuck my foot in my mouth more than my fair share but most people either accept an apology (wow, sorry, that came out wrong...sorry, that was insensitive) and even if not recognized in the moment, I haven’t insulted such that anyone has stopped talking to me.

I ask, b/c if I’m invalidating him at every turn, then I must be to others?  Others are saints and forgiving?  Or it is not truly invalidating?

Thanks FF.  Most of the time, I’m confident in my decision. I wish for something else...that doesn’t really exist. I know this is right and I deserve better. He should think I deserve better. He doesn’t.

Gaslighting?  He’s starting to craft the “you (me) really had a meltdown over pandemic”.

I got a good paying job with full benefits, unlimited time off (tough to do with workload), paid off all my credit cards, raised my credit score 150 points so I am primed to buy a house when ready. I’ve spent a lot of time sorting through best interest. Reached out to a T and several attorneys.


He collapsed for months, several weeks of no showering.  Broke a tv, dishes, threw things. Ranted at me that I was going to be living in the streets. Refused to take out garbage. Told me “if you want a war, you’re going to get a war” b/c I rescheduled a plumber b/c I had a meeting. Destroyed one half of the garage by throwing things all over looking for one Christmas decoration. Couldn’t find it so he toppled over boxes, etc. everywhere. I found the dec in 5 mins. It’s been 6 months and he “f]c£ing won’t clean it up”.

He has all these old time decs he bought or got from family. I put away 3 Christmas trees and put his most valuable on the table to put away. He refused for 3 weeks. I got tired of looking at them and carefully packed them and left them on the floor of house he is inhabiting. He still refused to put them away. In fact, he took out several and decorated our room for Christmas. A mini tree and Santa’s and wall decs. He turns the lights on the tree nearly every day. It’s May. Maybe this is okay?  Idk.

My youngest D has a med issue. The specialist only allows one parent due to Covid. The doc is a male. D is early teen, gets questions about puberty and has to partially disrobe. Uncomfortable. H freaks out that he wants to take her (he has never once taken the kids to any doc except like 3 times with me).

He says, several times, as he’s screaming at me “it’s not like they’re looking at her pu$$y”.  I am sick. Who talks like that?  Who talks like that about their daughter? 

I can’t make him stop.  If I tell him anything makes one of the kids uncomfortable (t!ts, any body parts derogatorily referred), he just does it more.  Pu$$y becomes pu$$y, pu$$y, pu$$y.

He doesn’t understand a 14 yo does want to discuss her lady parts with her dad or her dad and a doctor.

But, despite the inflammatory behavior not being pandemic related solely — I don’t think I’m the one who went off the deep end during pandemic.

But the gaslighting begins.

I’m playing catch up and I intend to reply to all who have very kindly shared and replied. You have provided insight and understanding and commonality that is so so helpful.

My time is stretched thin at the moment (and I have a migraine) so it is going to take me a bit longer.

I do have a somewhat lingering and maybe inconsequential question, but I’m curious for thoughts.

I mentioned that my youngest D has a med issue. They are recommending pretty intense surgery that will lay her up for 6 weeks and a year or so to return most activities. Some never again. This is daunting and scary and I’ve been in tears or near tears a lot. Not in front of her. We talk it through and she goes back and forth. There’s some leeway in when.  That’s really the discussion. Then some expressed fears about the surgery, etc.  valid, stomach churning. I don't let on that I’m terrified too, but reassure her that her concerns are valid and then all the reasons we can allay some — surgeon is top ped surgeon in the world (like in top 5, close to an ivy-league hospital), he’s done it hundreds of times with great success, we’re getting a second opinion for confirmation and better long term quality of life.

H, despite not being able to attend appointment — I did set up a telehealth appointment for us to discuss with doc next week as follow up — has been discussing fairly reasonable.  I still get a “I’m so fuc€ing mad I didn’t get to go to appointment” but nothing I can do. Wasn’t my call. He tells me he would do anything so she didn’t suffer. EXCEPT not continually berate me that he couldn’t come or stop saying pu$$y.

We were discussing F2F about options. Did you see this or that. He says what if we got her _____ for her recovery?  I said “I wondered about that.”

He freaks out. Of course you did. You’re so brilliant. Every good idea, you say you had.

Not true.  

So is truly agreeing and acknowledging that I had wondered the same thing somehow invalidating?  To him?  To everyone?

If to everyone I plan to cease all communication b/c I’m not capable.

Please share your thoughts...sorry was a long way to a singular question.

Invalidation isn't the same to everyone.  Perhaps a kissing cousin to that statement is..."not everyone finds the same thing invalidating" or "is as sensitive to it".

My guess is that invalidation (and validation for that matter) is much more important to disordered people..than "normal".

I mean..most people can self soothe.  So for them validation or avoiding invalidation is a "bonus".

However, a disordered person may have problems self soothing with even the best validation and avoidance of invalidation.



Example:  Let's say FFw "feels" like we are poor..out of money and about to be evicted.  The a delivery person comes by and drops off a check with a lot of zeros.  Maybe the delivery person was in a hurry or just not friendly.

FFw has to "do something" with the invalidation of "feeling poor" and "facts" that are literaly in her hand.

So...skip talking about the check and talk about what a jerk the delivery driver is or all those hussies chasing FF and his marvelous mustache..

Most "non-disordered" people might allow "facts" to lead their feelings and they feel better looking at more...vice less zeros on a check.

I'm hoping someone with more experience with NPD can validate this for me or that this applies...but generally said, disordered people let "feelings create their facts". 

Example:  FFw has claimed financial documents were forgeries...when I got her on the phone with the bank and "proved" they were authentic...can you see how I invalidated her.

If I could go back in time and deal with feelings..instead of facts..would have been much better.

And...yes, for me this still is exhausting to think through and execute.  I mean..who isn't happy with lots of zeros.

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

I am very sorry to hear that your D is struggling with a medical issue and is facing surgery.   That sounds quite stressful.    I am sure you are being a comfort and a strength for her.     I also hope your migraine has lifted or has started to lift.



No.   No it wasn't invalidating.  Not to him.   Not to anyone.

What would have been invalidating is if you continued the conversation.   ( I am assuming you walked away from this covert abuse?)    If you continued the conversation by debating who had the idea first.   If you continued by justifying how you came to have the same idea..."I saw this on Television yesterday and it made me think..."   If you explained the doctor mentioned that recovery would require...etc etc etc.    that would have been invalidating.

pwNPD or traits of NPD have a strong need to be "large and in charge"   their thoughts, ideas, opinions need to drive the conversation, and dominant the topic to the exclusion of all others.    with their diminished executive function and empathy pwNPD do not comprehend that others have perspectives or the right to express them.    pwNPD or the traits can only see one point of view, their own and their opinion, thought, idea has to be the right one.   pwNPD are not self aware or self reflective, locked into their own schema, script they have to be the best and brightest in the room.   


Of course he is 'so mad he didn't get to go to the appointment'.    of course he 'would do anything so she didn't suffer'.     Can you see how this flips things so that something that is essentially all about her becomes about him?    The attention of the moment shifts from her, to him.   His need here isn't to take care of your D,... the need here is 1) meet his requirement for attention, he has to be the largest presence in the room sucking in attention like a sponge, and 2) vent some stress by venting irritation.     He has very maladaptive ways of getting his needs met.       Can I ask... if you were to pick a level or describe in some way his emotional maturity, what would you say?   At what level of emotional maturity does he normally function?   and at what level under stress or during stressful times?

Are you managing any self care at all?

'ducks

At the telehealth appointment in about a week, who all will be on the call?

You, doctor, hubby.  Will daughter be there?

What is the purpose of this call?  What information do you hope to gather?

Do you think your hubby has the same purposes?

Best,

FF

The thing is I actually felt that showing it as a shared idea was actually validating.


I didn’t immediately walk away as there were other more important pieces to discuss. But I didn’t engage and if he’d been unwilling to drop it, I would have.


Yes.  We saw my MIL for the first time in over 6 months. They are both very conservative.  She is over the top…can you believe such and such?  Well, no, and neither should you.  Ever think it sounds scandalous because you believe every right wing fruitcake that makes some sh!t up?  

Now, I’m not one to believe everything that comes from the left either. Grab myself some common sense. And if something sounds scandalous, maybe do some more reading and research.

Well she and H went on a rant about politics and I fell in the “sit quiet compliance” vs “speak up and let the games begin” hole. Truthfully, now that I’m more aware of some NPD dynamic, I do like to be more vocal b/c I want to see how much of what I think/feel is “allowed” before going off the rails. Not much. And, in some weird way it makes me more confident in my decisions.  

But when I voiced that I might see it differently, it began an onslaught of underhanded insults. It was all people from the Midwest who are uneducated and fat. I may have grown up in the Midwest and I may be fat, but I am not uneducated and I can diet.


Interesting!  I wasn’t thinking of it that way, but I see what you’re saying.

We’re now in the spot of him hearing some very different things than I hear from the doctor, and then bantering over semantics. Then it becomes, you decide, you’re the mom and you’ll do what’s best. It’s true I will, but it is a way to deflect the responsibility.  I don’t care, I will make the decision.

He wants to say he’s involved. It becomes “I found the Ivy League doctors”. I am happy to have them, but the need for credit for finding his child’s doctor is so irrelevant and off point.

He feels bad for her.

The emotional maturity feels tough — he can make tough decisions. Intellectually he can, but virtually none is made without emotional upheaval, blackmail or insult. Also interesting. I’ve operated with the decision made and job gets done, but discounted the drama that came with it. I don’t even know what that would look like. It’s sad how used to things you get.

For instance — he wants to see his mom. I’ve resisted b/c things are terrible between us so it feels duplicitous but not ready to initiate plug pulling. (Impending major surgery for D has made me want to get my bearings again.  If surgery will be soon, then don’t want to navigate now; if it can wait a year, then could be more settled by then to address surgery unified (as much as ever would be possible).)

When D21 goes out with friends he uses it to manipulate into seeing his mom. When I acquiesce but put a limit to how long I’m willing BUT tell him we can drive separately so he doesn’t have to leave until he’s ready, he freaks out. I know he wants to appear all is well in front of mom, but I wanted to ensure my boundary was understood and kept. I will go but I will leave at stated time.

He riled, but then agreed. Shouldn’t it be enough I agreed but for the time I specified (I have a meeting filled week and wanted time to decompress).

Maybe I can handle him better but I don’t want to and don’t have the energy. I shouldn’t have  to try so hard. And please read, I am willing to bend in support of others, I just want the same consideration.

He just tries to manipulate everyone all the time.


Not a ton right now. One more doctor visit for daughter — second opinion, then time to digest. Then when decision made, will refocus. Taking a small family vacay in June with kids so D can have some fun if she then has to do surgery. It’s 6-8 weeks laid up after 15 months of pandemic. Didn’t want to do it but do think she needs some fun and 2 rooms so separate. And more proof + boundaries. And I have means to take kiddos and go.

Doing best I can, which doesn’t feel great 50% of the time.

Did you address the underhanded insults about midwest and fat?  How did that resolve?

Good luck with those second opinions and sorting out medical options.  Working through that with my Mom right now...frustrating.

Best,

FF

No, it was not directly directed at me. He said it about a group of people he has morphed into something they’re not and to further his point that they are inconsequential, he says they are fat, uneducated midwesterners.

I pointed out at least one of this group was actually from where we live (he is) and it’s hoity toity New England. And to ensure I wasn’t wrong, much later, I looked it up and 80-90 percent were not from the Midwest. It’s some form of manipulative gaslighting.

I fought back to him and his mother. He kept trying to make it political and called me a liberal (not an insult, he just thinks it is).  I told him it wasn’t about politics, it was about right and wrong. You can’t argue it wasn’t wrong. He finally admitted it was wrong. His mother told me I would find out. She knows. I asked who told her and she said a famous republican…on the news. Literally if you change the channel, you hear otherwise.

He went to another room and walked around. He was pi$$ed. I have never really stood up to his manipulation in front of anyone before. He calmed down and the rest of the day was fairly uneventful. 

It just made me realize more and more that I don’t have the energy  for this. I either agree with him and his more and more right wing beliefs, continue to stroke his ego or I am the enemy.

Ultimately this doesn’t get better, I just want to make the rest of this less bad (without being trounced, belittled or moving my boundaries).

The second opinion is to confirm surgery is needed/recommended. It is my, H and doctor. Daughter isn’t here for these. If this doctor disagrees, there will be a tiebreaker third opinion. Then it is a matter of when. One day at a time with this stuff.

I’m sorry about your mom. That is so hard.  I hope you find strength and peace each day.

I was trying to skim through this thread for the first time and this caught my attention (sorry for your troubles, by the way).  It sounds like others have nailed it given your particular situation but I wanted to add my own experience for a sense of perspective.  My uBPDw is notorious for such exchanges and she is extremely self-loathing.  

She would have said exactly what you posted there and on top of that added (in bold):  "Of course you did. You’re so brilliant. Every good idea, you say you had. I'm always the idiot.  I'm always the stupid one.  Everybody hates me."

That's because she lives in a perpetual state of victimhood.  I now know that she suffered a terrible injustice when she was a child and I take responses like that to mean she's still stuck at that moment in time where none of the adults in her life came to her rescue.  Of course, when those around her don't have that context to process what is coming out of her mouth, her behavior becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy and people do wind up hating her, and hence the endless cycle of terror.

All my best to you.  When I can make time I'm going to make it a point to read all of your thread in detail.  Keep putting one foot in front of the other!
    

Yep...this isn't surprising.  Most likely the next couple of times he may push back and bit harder...perhaps toss in a time or two of ignoring you or acting like it doesn't matter...but eventually...this line of "attack" will most likely be dropped or get a lot less.



Both of the above quotes are true.  I point out the first one for you to realize there are ways to "fight back" (not the best words..allI have right now) in a healthy way.  Important to know because there will be connection and communication with him..long term..regardless of state of your marriage.

I also think that this kind of thing will help him realize you are serious, when you begin moving forward on changing your marriage.

On Mom:  Geriatrics today, CT scan tomorrow, maybe a day to read and think about CT scan...so maybe Friday we have a clear picture of "mouth pain".


Best,

FF

I’ve seen this behavior before, but never in front of someone outside the immediate household. When no one else is around, he throws a fit never confined by others.

At this moment, I have realized that a lot of his upset may be because his mother got to see his behavior. He’s terrible with her often, too.  It can’t be much of a surprise but he also takes her on every vacation, helps her financially on occasion, or dealing with house/legal issues and includes her in every holiday/event known to man.  But he can be downright nasty to her, too.  

In truth, these episodes now don’t bother me much long term, in the moment, yes. Now the episodes mostly bolster my resolve that I can’t continue with this. I expressed a different view than his mother, who is also ultra conservative (when it suits her), and she does her usual, “you’ll find out” as if she has secret information the rest of the world will learn one day. I’ve complained of that for years. She thinks she wins an argument by “knowing” something the rest of us haven’t figured out yet. A mini gaslight perhaps…

Yes, maybe I disagreed (don’t people do that all day without much ado about nothing?). I was gentle about it and it was meant as a conversation.

She drops a salacious comment that can’t be true unless you’re buying into right-wing rhetoric.  I asked her why she thought that and suggested that there may be more to the story than we were aware of. Nope, she is aware because she was told by Sam Vopy (the right wing news guy).  

Oh, you heard it on the news.  Geesh, change the channel and you’ll hear something else. I didn’t say that, wasn’t looking to start a fight.

Her behavior has always been calmer but this sort of low key behavior has been there forever. Perhaps I’m reading into it.  Just felt interesting having never stood up to H in front of her — at least to the point of getting H to admit that I wasn’t discussing politics (they turned it to that), but simply able to say the behavior of others was wrong and ultimately that was all.  Were they driven to act? Perhaps. Did they just lose it? Maybe. Was it still wrong? Yes.

I know ‘ducks has pointed out that things are not always right or wrong, but live on a spectrum (including PDs). I agree and often bend so far to make excuses for others or grasp at a reason why someone behaves the way they do. Sometimes it makes sense and explains why and then tempers the judgment. Sometimes, though, it is just wrong. And this was.

And, to be clear, it was not personal to them so discussing all views should be just a discussion. Alternative is to agree or say nothing.


I’m not sure I know how to fight back in a healthy way. I expressed a different view. No argument. Just why do you believe this happened when you’re so upset, it doesn’t ring true and if it were true, would have been corrected by now. I don’t say those words so much, more just asked why she believed something she found so incredible, that I have not heard one time or read one time.  It’s not that I know all, but genuinely wanted to know where she heard it.

From there it was attacks that only uneducated liberals would see my view and disdain that I could be so liberal.  I don’t define on a party line (I used to) but rather use my own sensibilities for what I believe is right. Should I be expected to do more. Should I be able to express my beliefs?

Where did you hear that b/c I had not. And, you’re right, that sounds incredible.  Have you considered — a) it may not be be true, b) there may be more to the story or c) both a and b?

Nope, she knows, it’s political and I’m going to find out. Can’t wait.




Good luck on this. I don’t wish her pain, but hope they find a cause so that they can treat so she feels better.

Let us know how you make out.

Thanks FF

Also update on call with doc yesterday.

The doc changed time, which made it super inconvenient so H was going to join via phone. The telemedicine required a phone app to connect (also challenging) and I was going to loop H in via home phone.  I did but then the doc couldn’t hear (getting to this point was stressful and I was a bit frazzled), so I put my headphones in for a sec to adjust the noise.

Now H can’t hear but we have the doc on the phone for a set amount of time. He starts rage texting me and incessantly calling. The problem is I can’t switch audio in the app to speaker so he can hear b/c every time he calls (repeatedly) it pops off the app (thank goodness it doesn’t disconnect) so I can’t get to the button.

I’m simultaneously trying to discuss with doc and manage “you better not be fu€£ing talking to the doc without me” and constant calling. I finally managed to text him to stop calling so I could switch audio.  He then refused to answer the phone to join. I didn’t get most of what I needed from the call. I got the gist, but was too crazed to ask meaningful follow up. The doc shared a couple of key points that I thought H would want to hear. Before I hung up with the doc I told him H was disappointed he wasn’t able to join and arranged a phone call for him.

I then called H to tell him and he refused to answer for like 30 mins. Texted and told me to do whatever with D.  Kept saying I was harassing him b/c I called him a few times to discuss (he has a cell and a couple direct office lines depending where he is, and since I didn’t know, I tried each, but may have double dialed one cuz I lost track in the frenzy).

He rage texts me and when I call to discuss, I’m harassing him.

Eventually we spoke. He yelled at me and I told him we could either discuss calmly or not. I wasn’t going to if he was yelling. He hung up.

We spoke again and he had calmed down. Full of reasons he was so upset. He found the doctor, why did I have the app (um, I set up the appointment, gave them my email and completed all the paperwork…was not a master plan to screw him over. More needed to get done and he didn’t want to do it).  Even his D facing major surgery is about how unfair it is to him. He expresses he feels bad for her but then reminds us he found the doctors and he is doing this and that.

Anyway, yep, that was a horrible day all around and made so much worse by his crazed behavior. I’m exhausted and I resent I never get a moment to just think of the problem at hand. It always includes how he feels and needing his ego stroked. It’s disappointing, to say the least.

Just sharing…how was your day?

 :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug:

I mean..the technology alone is enough to make you scream...the addition of BPD makes it unbearable.

Hang in there..

Best,

FF

Thanks FF.  It is but no recognition that rage texting was making anything worse.

How’d your mom’s appointment go?

Now, here’s where I could use some strategic help.

Coming off yesterday which calmed down. Didn’t speak today, just kept distance.

We’re taking a trip, which seems mostly not a good idea. He played it as D needs surgery and after the last year she should get a vacay before. Truthfully it seems reasonable in other circumstances (even though I think it was just a ploy to take a vacay).  I agreed for my D, separate rooms.  

By refusing, risk blowing him up while trying to navigate treatment/surgery for daughter. I didn’t envision being here at this time and trying to muster energy to focus. And feeling defeated b/c there’s always one more thing…but this is a big one.

Tonight I sent a quick, pleasant question about S.  He replied and then followed with…

     I want to have dinner with D/S 3x week and 4x every other week.


We have not eaten together since January (a meal here or there like 2x). I have never stopped him. He said this once before about S (not D) and did absolutely nothing. Never said it or asked again.

Never followed through. I’m not opposed to it. D really is in a bad place with him. She can see right through that there is an issue. I do struggle with validating her feelings and not wanting her to feel unloved by him.  He does I guess in his own way. I guess. Some would argue that it doesn’t constitute love. I do try to focus her on us but he does do things to poke around.

Anyway…what is a good response?

Okay, sounds good. Then see what he does?  

Say nothing. No affirmative, no negative?  See what he does.

With D likely not having surgery this summer, toying with canceling the trip. He may try to go with them and don’t love that. D3 doesn’t want to take the trip with him but is now looking forward to being there.

I’m open to suggestions. Should have formal second opinion tomorrow or next day and feel like we get a year. Take trip and pull the plug.

I’m just tired of the rigaramarole all of the time.

The ask is not that unreasonable. It’s the stance, making a point when he’s pretending we’re taking a happy family trip that just once again feels manipulative.

Really open to ideas and what would you do?

If I could ensure he didn’t take the kids 1000+ miles, I think I’d pull the plug  as soon as surgery is confirmed postponed.

That's weird phrasing that sounds like a parenting plan.

Remind me, has he mentioned divorce, custody, two homes, kids back and forth, anything like that?

I'm with you in leaning towards either no comment, or neutral/pleasant but noncommittal:

"That sounds nice (happy emoji)"

Also, what do you think would happen if you just didn't respond?

Exactly correct. He’s a L, so that part didn’t surprise me. But crap he did casually mention he is doing a custody case right now. He doesn’t usually, but has years ago.

He’s said a 100x over the years that he wants a divorce. He hasn’t since his last true rage text (attack on me personally) where I moved out of our bedroom and stay on another floor of the house. He’ll have to beat me to it.

If I didn’t respond he’d just do whatever it is he is going to do.  Previously he would rage at me for ignoring him or not responding. He didn’t ask so technically he’s stating something he doesn’t need to ask permission to do. And I believe it is to unsettle me and also show he is “involved”.

Torn between the thumbs up and ignoring.

Thumbs up is good b/c shows he didn’t rattle me, but agrees. He’ll do it a time or two and then may fall off — my sons batting cage he had to get him for his birthday 3+ months ago still sits unopened in the garage.  Walks past it every single day and it doesn’t move.

Ignoring also shows no rattle and there’s no question. Slight downside is whatever/whenever next text, it’ll throw that message up too.  

I see nothing in his "want" statement about dinners that requires anything from you. What action do you think he is expecting from you? To change dinner time? To facilitate everyone being available at that time?

I don’t think he wants me to do anything at this point.

I think he first wants to upset me and second he wants to paint himself as involved.

Since Jan he has been doing S’s laundry. In 30+ years H has done laundry…since Jan.  Like never even tossed in a load. He doesn’t do D’s. Older two are adults so he says they do their own. Middle I still do. Very little, wasteful to do a separate load so I don’t. She helps fold and put away.

So you suggest I don’t even respond to it?

Ugh, further he has follow up call scheduled tomorrow. He was going to include me and I think I need to remind him.

Thinking I ignore the last text as not requiring a response. Then remind about call. 

But concerned it might appear, if you do this, I do that. But if I don’t remind, he can also try to misconstrue as I don’t care. He’s clearly on a planning path.

If he wants to be involved with daughter's care, he can remember the call himself. You went through the extra step to set it up after he rage texted and called you. You didn't have to do that. And, since I have been in very similar situations, I imagine you only set it up because he was pissed off and bombarding you and you did it to pacify him (and therefore preempt any more abuse treatment towards you). :hug:

It's his child. He should not demand that he have dinner with (child whatever age) from you.  He is responsible for his relationship with his own kids. If he wants to do this, let him figure it out.

"'That sounds nice! :)"

Noncommittal. It doesn't say you will orchestrate any details.

Stop worrying about how he may misconstrue anything you say or do to mean you don't care. You have done more than enough and he still persists in making it about you not including him (see phone call with doctor where you made appointment, got app, followed instructions, tried to include him while he made zero effort and blamed you when things went wrong with technical difficulties causing you to lose clarity and focus on D's medical issues and discussion with doc because he threw a fit for not getting his way with no effort from him).

Who cares if he misconstrues anything as "she doesn't care"? He's liable to come to this conclusion anyway.

What do you want to do?

If this phone call is important to hom, will he remember?

Do you remind him of every phone call he needs to have with one of his clients?

Thank you. Exactly as it happened. Couple of things…

I am tired of this whole dynamic. Have been for a very long time but felt stuck and trapped and did not understand what was going on. And ‘ducks in a long ago reply mentioned trauma bonding.  I thought I knew what this meant — I didn’t. This is 100% what I was living.  Good, good, good, love bombing, bad, bad, worse, like nothing I’ve ever seen before, remorse, love bombing…and around and around. Confused by the bad, restored with the good. Confused again by bad, throw in some gaslighting (or a ton of it) and left dazed and confused and at some level, believing deserving of the treatment.

Half of it is on me for taking so long to seek help. To understand. Even the event that I believe exacerbated it about 8 years ago, only increased intensity and frequency. Before that, as has been said, there was enough good to overlook the bad. I shouldn’t have.


After a little rest (a little), I think this is the way to go.  I will not make arrangements, I will not stop him.

Planning ahead, there were 2 times he took my son. I was in the shower or in the laundry room and they left. S is 9.  He did not tell me he was going to take him or that he had. I panicked not knowing. I texted H and asked if he had S.  He never replied. Go for 2 months doing nothing with him and then when I’m distracted, quietly take S and say nothing. He is not ever quiet. I told S just to let me know if he is going somewhere.  Know it’s not on S, and I feel terrible about it, but can’t rely on H to tell me.

So, if H decides he’s taking them for dinner, but doesn’t tell me in advance and I’ve made dinner, I presume I deny then and state, I’ve already made their dinner, but if you’d like to take them tomorrow or let me know when, I won’t make dinner for them.

He will 100% throw a fit, but I think it would be a mistake in this situation to allow it. The kids have a routine, if he wants to change it, he should let me know. If I don’t boundary this, he’ll just control my every day. And I want to “teach” him to let me know. It’s not for my approval, but respect of my time. Thoughts on that?


So true. He’s a gas lighter extraordinaire. And, I do struggle at times with not being understood accurately.  I have to remind myself a lot.


Probably should have been more clear, lol. I want to remind him to include me in the call. The doc is calling H’s phone so I only get to hear the conversation (which was to happen 2 days ago but was destroyed by events of that day) if I remind him to include me.

If it was just him, I’d let him sink his own ship. I will not help him. I will not actively look to “hurt” him, but I will definitely not help him.

The time is now, so we’ll see how this goes. Thank you for keeping me on my path forward.

One more "details" thought on deflating potential conflict:


I wonder whether H is doing something passive-aggressive here, or setting up some drama/conflict:

You've already made dinner, and who knows, maybe H sees it, maybe not, but either way, with dinner already made, THAT'S when he takes S9 out.

People with PD's are masters at identifying and crafting drama scenarios with rigid roles. With the whole "you already made dinner" thing, the drama scenario is that you're in a double bind. He "just wants to be a loving dad" (the hero) who "isn't doing anything wrong" (victim) by getting dinner with S9. You're being unreasonable to stop him "just because of some food that got made" (you're the persecutor, you're petty, etc etc etc).

What if the fact that dinner was already made... didn't matter?

What if the extras just got put in tupperware in the fridge? Labeled with his name for lunch tomorrow  lol maybe don't really do that

He would lose a lot of ammo and the whole situation, crafted in a rigid way, would completely deflate.

"OK H, have a great dinner with S9"

versus

"You guys can go on another night when I haven't made dinner"

...

It is sort of detail focused for this particular scenario, but overall, I think it's about an overarching mindset.

You know now how pwPD's can turn ANYTHING (yes, anything!) into a competition about who's on top, who's below, who is good, who is bad, who is the heroic victim, who is the unreasonable persecutor.

The new mindset is -- how do I "accept their choices" in a way that takes the wind out of the sails.

They often make choices or statements that seem designed to generate rigid conflict.

How can we decline to participate? How can we rely on our own flexible thinking and creative problem-solving (granted, not in every scenario, but there are many) to deflate the drama?

...

Our recent example was:

We found out 1 day ahead of time that Mom and Stepdad would be out of town for some indeterminate stretch of time -- at least part of a day, maybe overnight, she wasn't clear. She texted that "SD15 already decided to stay with you that night, but SD13 told me that she only wants to stay with you as a last resort". Wow, thanks!
She didn't know how long they'd be gone, so DH said that if they were back by X time at night, he'd take SD13 back to their place, but if not, he'd drop the kids off the next morning.
Then she responded that "I told SD13 that if we weren't back by X time, we'd see her in the morning".
Oh, did she already?
It's this combination of inadvertently advertising her inability to plan re: the kids (if SD13 was so desperate to be with them... they could have DECIDED to come back earlier), and flaunting her "one up" position -- "SD13 OBVIOUSLY prefers me... I am the chosen parent... she tells me how she doesn't want to be with you... blah blah blah"

DH did a great job of keeping communication to:

what he needed, with specifics: "if you're not back by X time, then I will need to do Y"

minimal word answers when needed: "sounds good" or "ok, thanks"

not responding to unclear texts: she later sent one that was like "we'll be back by X+1 time and the door is unlocked for the kids", that did not get a response

not responding to bait into drama: DH did not engage with the putdown

...

Hope this is helpful "mindset" stuff...

It's so good to read you here thinking through "does this text merit a response?"

That is really powerful! You deserve kudos for asking yourself that question more and more. It's a change I've seen in you since you've been here that will really pay of for your peace of mind long-term. Thumbs up!

I like the "have a great time" response, especially for the first couple times.  It's very likely this will "burn itself out" and be a non thing.


Before I read that idea I was going to suggest you reply with "great...please let me know what you have scheduled."   I don't see anything wrong with my idea...but there is more "simplicity" to the "have a great time" idea.

Especially if you save the extra dinner for them them to eat the following night..


Big picture:  Resist overthinking their potential actions and chaos.

Train you kids to let adults know when they are going...train them to NOT assume adults will talk. 

So..."Hey Buddy...go hop in the car let's grab breakfast" 

"Ok Dad..I'm hungry, let me go tell Mom I'm leaving."


Keep it that simple...I know it's not "that simple"...yet deliberately turning toward simplicity will reap benefits.

Best,

FF

One more "tweak" for you to consider:

Phrasing could be:

"OK, you guys have a great dinner! I'll save your leftovers in the fridge for tomorrow."

Could be a way of "staying in the driver's seat" of what's going on -- you're the one in control/managing the dinner you have made, while calmly sharing information with them for the future.

UBPDHelp,

I think kells absolutely nailed it with her post.

two things that I see as worth really focusing on:


this has been the pattern for quite a while now.    Your H creates conflict because it serves his attention seeking needs and his need for control.     the cups he wouldn't pick up.    the pumpkins he smashed on the front lawn.    the door he won't lock or close.   the bills he dangles over your head.   what they all have in common is - your attention reverts to him and he is in control of the situation.  albeit in a petty way.

When Karpman created his 'drama triangle' image he inverted it.   Why?   because he wanted to demonstrate the struggle for the "one up position".    the persecutor - your husband, wants the one up position.   he wants to be large and in charge.   he wants to drive the dynamic.  he wants to be better, deserve more, be right, have his needs met first.    its not conscious.   its more an automatic function of his illness.
 
anyone else on the drama triangle will then get sucked into trying to find a way to that one up position.   the rescuer will try to fix it,  figure it out, solve the puzzle, do the right thing.    the victim will blame, shift responsibility, decline to problem solve.

kells is right.    the only way to win is not to play.    move off and away from the drama triangle.   deflate conflict.    dial down reactivity.    make deliberate and conscious choices to not engage in non productive debates.   

'okay.   have fun.   I'll save dinner for leftovers tomorrow' is a brilliant response.


I'll take a swing at this.   at some point we can decline to participate by breaking  the pattern.    there is absolutely no doubt that this type of conflict generating behavior is frustrating, irritating, annoying and upsetting.    those are all valid and difficult emotions.    what is also true is that we can disengage from those emotions, and disengage from the conflict.    deliberately choosing to let go of the conflict using our wise mind and move into flexible thinking.     "I see this a conflict generating situation where I am being baited into a one down position.   Do I want to participate?   Is it worth it?   What do I get if I engage?"


The he here is your husband?   am I reading that correctly?    Your husband is an adult and these are his children.    Yes, the right thing to do is let you know he is going to dinner.   and Yes chances are he won't do that.    You can't change him.  and chances that you can 'teach' him to let you know are slim considering how broken the communication is in your marriage.    you can request he let you know in advance.     you will probably have to request more than once, since the level of cooperation between you two is low right now.   boundaries reflect our values.    they protect us from doing things that violate our values.   they are not demands or commands.  can you say what value are you setting a boundary around?

'ducks

Yep...this tweak is better.

I wonder if circling back later and asking him to "take over" dinner "with" daughter for a night or so is useful.  Not that I think he will.

I do think it might actually increase the chances that he takes daughter out for dinner. 

As we look at this situation do we care what he actually does and increasing or decreasing chance of that...or do we limit ourselves to a healthy response to his words and then let chips fall where they may.

Honestly...after I wrote that...I think we leave it to simplicity, let the chips fall.  Yet Dad actually making the effort to "do" a better r/s with someone in the family seems good.

Best,

FF

In the scenario that kells describes, some one had to dampen down the flames of injustice and indignation that were threatening to break out every where.

By staying in his own lane and responding in a healthy manner kells' DH did that.

What do your kids think is going on with your relationship with your H?

How weird will it be for them to go on a "family trip"?
How weird is it for them that you are still doing "family" things with your H (like visiting his mom)?

I am not sure from your posts if the two of you still have non-kid-decision-making contact or not.  I'd be totally confused as a tween/teen if my parents lived on different floors, never managed to have dinner together for months, and then took us all on a "nice happy vacation".

I like this so much.  If I think about it, the best response I usually get is if I agree — which emotionally feels like I’ve failed by giving in.  Change of mindset — deflating the attempt to disrupt.

I don’t mean agree in the typical sense…in the PD sense. You’re interested in spending time with the kids when you think it will upset me?  Have at it. We’ll see if he keeps it up.

I walk a fine line — I want my kids to have their dad and a good relationship.  He can be great with them…if they don’t veer too far from what he thinks (which can change on a dime).  So, for them, they get a fair amount of okay interaction — personally, the middle two struggle with what they perceive as racist, sexist, political or otherwise inflammatory rhetoric.  Who wouldn’t?  But those things are not directed at them; just the world in general.

I struggle with how to help them preserve the relationship and I guess accept that he has these big faults that don’t align with their beliefs. We can get there if he doesn’t force them on the kids. 

I apologize that I can’t remember who gave this advice, but I do try now to let them lead any conversation and just ask them how they feel or what they think. They are my kind and quieter crew, but darn if they didn’t see the dynamic so quickly. I don’t know how to help them when I can’t help myself.

...


Yes, I have been trying. I was making some decent progress and had pulled away and was operating quite well on my own.

But your description is better and helpful to remember during the attempts to disrupt.

Unfortunately with D’s current situation, we’ve had to communicate quite a bit in the last month and will need to for the next several to see this through. More communication and increased disruption, although maybe not as much as I would have thought.

He is definitely mini love bombing. It’s subtle but he is.  I chuckle b/c I see what’s going on but I’m using it to try to get through the current situation and put it behind us.

I’m just beside myself to have this delay but there is now urgency for D and I feel like I have to to avoid as much drama as possible til we’re on the other side. She comes first.  But I’m still getting my plans worked out — current lack of housing options is the biggest hurdle. Hoping as everything opens back up, the millions that fled the city to here will go back (some of them at least). 

...


Thanks for sharing the example. Sorry you have to deal with those passive aggressive behaviors. Glad you have mastered them.

Your reply was so helpful.  It helps to see the less is more, deflating communication.  But also, helpful that my take on it isn’t nuts AND that I’m not alone in dealing with this stuff.

But changing mindset is a biggie. I was really in a better spot, and I don’t think I’ve lost much ground in ability, just the need for more communication around D is opening up opportunities for him to manipulate. 

I am not tooting my own horn…I am a pretty average person, but I just don’t look to disrupt people or feel threatened by others’ wins/accomplishments/better car, house.  I’m happy for others and care much more about what’s inside and kindness. I just was so ill-prepared to deal with this having never dealt with anyone like this before.

Bottom line, I feel bad for him, in some ways I know he can’t help it, but I just don’t want to live with it anymore. Or make my kids.

Thanks Kells!

I’d take any advice how to stay in the mindset in that shock moment, lol!

Thanks ‘ducks. I have gotten better about dialing it down. And certainly not letting him know I’m annoyed as he||.  I tried to get him to lock the door. He said I forget sometimes when I’m thinking about work when I leave. Every single day. Every single day. Coming, going, doesn’t matter. As soon as I asked (after it happened a couple of times), he just refused. Fine. I bought and installed a lock I can employ from my phone. Sadly I get a smidge of pleasure when he comes home and sits in the room by the door and I hit “lock” and he can hear it turn.

Never discussed it again. The first time he saw it, he popped the cover off, I assume to be a pain. Didn’t say anything. I put it back when he was out. Never discussed or touched again. He still doesn’t ever lock the door. Ever. But I do. Oh wait, if I’m not home and he goes out, he’ll lock it so I have to unlock it. Who cares?  Just shows he can remember and it’s intentional to “say” he doesn’t care if I’m safe (or the kids b/c they’re here, too). Pathetic really.


How would you engage when there’s drama but you must reply?  Still matter of fact — I will blank.

Escalation ensues and walk away unresolved. Can I just act, say, with the kids?

I tried to discuss, you weren’t interested in finding middle ground, so I did what I thought best. True this will be easier to employ when bound by custody terms. Just need to practice.


I think the boundary is just plain respect. The boundary is not engaging with people who do not show me basic levels of respect.

On the flip — willingness to engage only with respectful people (not talking one-offs, no need to boundary a single interaction and I have no problem walking away)…so engage only with respectful people sort of creates the “demand/command” of the other person to behave respectfully IF they want a relationship with me/cooperation from me.

So I know the boundary is mine, but it can create a need for a behavior from others…no?

I can choose no relationship, just not with him.

Thanks ‘ducks

Agree. I replied as suggested. Haven’t heard another word about it. Only been a couple days and distractions with D. Not bringing it up, but ready if he does or asks them to go.

No reaction is definitely way better with him. Momentarily wonder if that would have made the current situation better had I known 8-10 years ago. But, it would be a flat relationship and unlikely to sustain.

This mindset feels doable and impactful. No doubt imperfect application but diminish maybe 50% would be worth it.

Thanks FF

Agree. Where I struggle, it’s not with not with being right, but fear I am letting him move the line in the sand. I just have such a hard time not feeling like he’s trying to manipulate and take advantage, which is why I can react. Which is what he wants.

I’m better about no response or no reaction, but fear I’ll wake up and have agreed to too much. This may be a perception and not a reality, I admit, but I think it’s the cause of the waffling I deal with.

Any tricks, tips for that?

Thanks ‘ducks

My older two are in 20s and fully aware of the dynamic.  The 14yo is wise beyond their years and most outspoken about dads behavior.  Youngest seems unaware of mom/dad being off, but often doesn’t want to tell dad stuff for fear of being yelled at. Some unlikely but understandable, too.


I don’t disagree.

I agreed to the need for D to have some fun before surgery took the rest of summer from her (she wants to wait on surgery, we can’t).  She has been in pandemic like everyone else and ready to see friends more and now will be relegated to bed for about 6 weeks (timelines shaping up).

We do make some decisions together — bill paying, repairs — mostly via text.

Yes, I’m operating some from fear if I refuse he will paint me as not being concerned about D’s need to have fun but more so, blowing up the whole surgery process and creating added stress, including most importantly for D. Now, we can find the agreement. While no choice in surgery, there are options and I don’t want that used to complicate things.

So, I don’t think the 3 oldest are unaware, they understand, the youngest is mostly unaware.

Is it the right choice?  I don’t know. It isn’t what I wished but I’m more concerned about getting through the surgery process as uneventfully as possible. I believe he will be disruptive if we decline the fun.

In truth, I don’t know if it’s the right decision, but I believe for current situation, it is the decision that offers the best chance for least disruption, which I feel is critical right now.

Thanks worried stepmom.

One broad comment and one specific one.

I TOTALLY identify with "line in the sand" and struggling over it.  It's a power struggle.

IT'S A POWER STRUGGLE

What if you ignored his lines..?  When he makes it impossible to ignore, instead of struggling...act befuddled..let him explain and overly explain his being an azz.

Please...no criticism here, just as I look back over the "arc" of me "dealing with" BPD...power struggles rarely go well for me, the relationship or my pwBPD.

From time to time I draw and hard line and let things go nuclear over safety (in fact just a few days ago)..my wife was stomping around the house saying she was moving out because I wouldn't let her put up the pool.  She tried to rally the children to do it anyway.

Note:  This was a week after I accepted her written proposal to not put up the pool.  After 35 seconds of trying to get me to change and put up the pool she went nuclear.

I was still trying to sort out how accepting her proposal was not ok..I suspect she was being a smart azz and I missed it.

Anyway...I looked at kids and said "Do not put up the pool, you know this is a safety issue.  Don't do it."  Then I walked into my room.  

Long story way of saying that only use power struggles for the most most important stuff.  I wish I had realized earlier what she was doing or that she was previously insincere.  

Specific idea:  Pick a random day in the next week.  Approach your hubby in person.  "Hey..daughter seems down today.  Can you take her to dinner and cheer her up." 

Let him react to you...be proactive.

Best,

FF

I understand what you’re saying and the few true power struggles have not gone well.

I’m not really concerned about power, but the gradual erosion of what I’m willing to do or not do.

Take the kids to dinner after I’ve made their dinner and no notice, okay great, I’ll save the food for tomorrow. Feels okay. Taking kids on an unannounced overnight trip. Little more line in the sand.  Now we’re going to go for a week and they’re going to miss 2 days of school. Further in the sand. And now if I push back, the stakes are higher.

This is what I’m afraid of. It may not play out, idk.  It’s just the concern and much because that’s how I ended up being responsible for all household chores, childcare chores, doctors/dentist, not talking to people. They all started a little more line in the sand. The increments were never big, but looking to the beginning, it’s miles.


Been there, too.  Misunderstand and react. But, I can say in my case, it’s almost always from past experience.

Thanks FF

I think I get the vibe.

He takes kid (with your blessing) to dinner and then "poof" through a series of steps he and kid disappear for days on end.

Is that about the gist of it?


Best,

FF

Yep, in a nutshell

I’m pretty open and easy-going, which also allowed me to be taken advantage of. I don’t blame him entirely. I allowed it.

But, that’s why I feel more unbending. I just fear it will be a little more here and a little more there and then just too darn far.

And I question if I’m overreacting based on past experience. Kind of think he’s out of chances for good faith. He has to prove, but in reality I will never trust him.

This is a bit off topic, but on my mind and doesn’t warrant a separate thread.

I’ve mentioned this lost sense of “normal”.  I’ve learned enough to state I don’t mean one right vs wrong, but normal on a continuum — anywhere in the range.

Recently have had some somewhat irritating life things happen.  As I’ve known for years, an expression of frustration or disappointment — not directed at H — illicits a reaction in him that seems to exceed reasonable. That said, I find myself getting more irritated with things (examples) below. I don’t know if it’s normal, he’s rubbed off on me too much or my current stress makes me more impatient. I’d love thoughts on what a “normal” response in these scenarios would be and any thoughts on why they irritate me and how to focus on them not.

Some seem kind of silly, just an heads up.

We have newish garbage collectors. We prepay quarterly. We’ve had extra garbage with more people at home so more than fits in the bin they provide. Their invoice/website says they’ll charge $2/bag over. At first I was being mindful to only put one or two (we probably have 4-5), thinking the next week might be less and we’d even out. Didn’t really happen, so few weeks ago, put out about 5 bags — in my own container. They collector didn’t take it.

I thought maybe the truck was full and he was coming back. I can’t leave it out overnight because of animals, so I called just to see if they were coming back. I was told no, they won’t take extra garbage. I was surprised and said you state you will charge, happy to pay.  She says okay we’ll come back. They don’t. Ever. The situation is frustrating. I just want them to take the garbage, I’ve agreed to pay what they state, but they won’t come.

How would you respond?  What would you do?

Second is similar.  Lawn guy comes 1x week, same day, to cut the grass. He misses the usual day so I call the office to let them know. I was pleasant and just checking in case they weren’t aware. She assured me he would come that day (the next day from usual).  He doesn’t. I call again, because now I’m more concerned that she thinks he has come. Again, she says he will come that day. He doesn’t. I tell H that it’s so odd and a bummer because half way through the week, if he comes now and then usual the next week, it will be double cut basically. H calls and tells the, to come but skip the next week (which would have been just as long as the delay).  They come that day and then again on the usual day.

Seems kind of dumb, but are these typical things and shouldn’t be cause of frustration?  What’s a good way to handle?  I’m just trying to understand if my level of frustration is “normal” or if I’ve adopted poor coping skills, etc. 

Finally, youngest D got hurt at school under watch of teacher doing something I would not allow a 9 yo to do, definitely not without supervision. Think hot. Think glue. Think 2 burns on hand. D just thought it hurt but by the time dinner rolled around, they had blistered and were pretty red. That’s when I found out.

I sent an email — just hey, FYI, D got some burns and hope you’re all done with that activity, but if not, please make sure to help her because she needs assistance. And, to please send to the nurse if the bandaids come off because they were now open wounds.

I feel like that’s an okay email…thoughts?

The teachers reply annoyed me a bit. He was like the kids were given instructions on how to use them. It can be hard. And that they would send  D to the nurse if the bandaids came off.

No apology, no oh my goodness. Not blaming him, but I know I’d feel terrible if any child got hurt under my care. Even if it was accidental.

Part of me wants to send him pictures of the burns and tell him it’s not hard, it’s second degree burns. Think that’s too much.   :(

So how would you handle?  I just want to ensure my years of operationally being around intense angst isn’t rubbing abnormal response on me.

Appreciate any normal responses to help me get my bearings.

Sorry this is a weird post…too much time to think today for whatever reason.

All of the things you mentioned have a common thread: you want someone else to do something that you think is reasonable, and none of them are responding in the way you think they should. I think that it mirrors what you have been experiencing with your h. You don't understand why he behaves in ways that are (very) unreasonable or exhibits low empathy (like the teacher's response).

It's always frustrating when we want someone else to change their behavior and they won't- especially when we just expect a basic level of reasonable.

Experiencing years of abuse made me feel powerless. Part of my recovery and healing has been recognizing when I start to feel frustrated and powerless in situations involving other people, and learning when and how to assert myself and when to let things go.

Letting things go sometimes feels like letting others take advantage of me.

Asserting myself sometimes feels like overreacting.

It can be very confusing and I thank God for a great therapist who has helped me work through these things.

Now, as for the things you mentioned- they would all be frustrating to me, on different levels. The yard thing probably would be the least of my worries. Irritating, but maybe it was a one-off and the lawn guy will get back to his regular schedule.

The garbage thing...I would definitely be irritated at having garbage sitting around that was not getting picked up. I have raccoons that like to pilfer mine, so I would hate having to leave it either sitting in the house or outside waiting for the next pickup day.

In that situation, I would probably call and ask if I could purchase another bin from the waste management company so all the garbage can be put out in approved containers and therefore picked up. I might also just find a dumpster or a garbage dump to dispose of the left behind trash.

The kid thing...that teacher's response would tick me off. Not that I would go nuclear about it, but I think this is an incident where I would be assertive. Take pictures of the child's hands. State that I do not want my child participating in this activity without direct assistance. I might even speak to school staff. Yes, accidents happen, but that email doesn't reassure a parent that the child is receiving proper supervision or care and I would not be okay with that.

I've been around real estate for a while (renting, flipping and all kinds of stuff)...plus I'm an MBA guy..so I can geek out on "process".

I'm from the south...so think "sweet as pie" on the phone when I really have a knife out.

Make sure you have girls name that said they were coming back, call and ask for manager and ask how it works..maybe act a bit befuddled and ask them to walk you through it..

But at end of day there are a bunch of crappy garbage companies out there.  I've fired a bunch of them.  Luckily most I fired...I owed them money, when they wanted their money I let them know a phone call and explanation would be required first...release..etc etc.

Zero have taken me up on it.  Hmm..maybe hit a FF nerve.


To me the blister thing would be irksome, but we tend to patch booboos and move on without much fanfare...you can still do dishes while hurt...still do (fill in the blank).

Plus...we make a big deal about "are you hurt or are you injured"

For some reason, lawn companies tend to get a pass from me as long as I see they are trying.  I'm also a farmer and know how hard it is to dance around weather.  Now..if weather has been perfect and lawn guys are screwups...maybe I do something. 

I also do most of my own lawn stuff or hire my kids to do it.  Most of my lawn stuff is remote...so I deal in pics, texts and emails..vice staring out the window at a gnarly lawn.

Not sure if I helped...but sure was fun to vent about garbage guys.

Oh..when you find good ones..keep them.  I haven't had to change in 5 years..so blessed.

Best,

FF

I should also say my response would be tempered by the realization of how hard it is to switch.

Most places have lots of lawn guys and lots of trash people.

Teachers and schools are tougher to switch.

Plus..any history with any of these?

Anyway.. how are those blisters doing?

Best,

FF

Hey UBPDHelp, sounds like I Am Redeemed and I were thinking about the same thing recently!


Like she mentioned, the way we have historically interacted with pwPDs bleeds over into how we interact with "normal" people. This just is what it is, and has a positive and a negative aspect (in my take). On the plus side, our "radars" for passive-aggressiveness, blame avoidance, abdication of responsibility, and other disordered behaviors is pretty sensitive. If we get "vibes" from emails or whatever that someone isn't taking responsibility when s/he should... we notice! That's not a bad thing.

On the minus side, sometimes we bring the same habitual responses from interacting with pwPDs to "normal" interactions. Those responses can be: not saying what we really want or need, hoping to get what we want without making waves, fearing that assertion will set off conflict, etc. Could be different habitual response flavors as well.

So, in regards to the school issue, IAR and I are looking at it similarly. You're the mom, you're the expert. It's OK and normal to be assertive in and "over 50%" of the interaction. You're not taking over 100% of the interaction ("my way or the highway") but it is YOUR child, not the school's child. Teachers can be wonderful gifts and also are not the expert in the child -- you are (well, and, ultimately, the child, but in this situation, you are the expert in what your child needs and is capable of).

If it were me, I might take a moment to think about what I truly want for my child. Do I want her to use the hot glue gun at all? Only with supervision? Supervised the next time, but OK on her own after that? Not at all until her hands are back in action...?

I hear you communicating in your email that you would like her to have help with the HGG and some eyeballs on the bandaids.

I hear a couple of possibilities in the response.

There could be liability issues with the teacher saying any kind of "I'm sorry" in a written record. Kind of like how we aren't supposed to apologize for fender benders... wait for insurance to sort it out. If a teacher says "I'm Sorry" about a kid's injury... I am betting the school district gets really nervous. That doesn't make it OK for the teacher to not apologize, just my first hunch about why the email came back with the vibe of "we did this by the book" versus "we didn't supervise your child and she got injured on our watch".

It would be totally normal to have an assertive response to their response, like IAR suggested.

Lots of "I" statements, and, importantly, after doing the above (thinking about what YOU truly want for your child, as YOU are the expert), making assertive statements about what you need and what you will do. And, as FF hints at, with a generous helping of the "Friendly" in "BIFF".

Could be something like:

"Hi Teacher;

Thank you for getting back to me so quickly. I appreciate you understanding how important Child's safety is.

I want to reiterate how serious the burns were, as I'm sure you've already seen. Here are the pictures, just so we're on the same page. I appreciate you agreeing to monitor her bandaids and send her to the nurse if they come off at all.

I do not want Child to use HGGs at any time without 1x1 adult supervision. If that isn't possible, she will need an alternative assignment. Let me know by the end of Day/Date if this is an issue. If I don't hear back, I'll assume that supervision will happen or that alternatives are OK.

Thanks for all your hard work this past year -- such a crazy year!

Don't hesitate to reach out if you have any questions for me or need any clarification. I'm glad we can work together to ensure Child is safe in the classroom.

Best,

UBPDHelp"

...

The gist I got from you was that even after sending Email #1 and getting Reply #1, things felt... unaddressed, and/or unclear. And I also got a sense that you didn't want to "go nuclear" in Email #1 or create a conflict out of nothing. Like IAR said, though, it was a low empathy response, and that is concerning, whether it was low empathy due to a lack of concern or some kind of liability issue.

It would be perfectly normal to write Email #2, or something like it, and be assertively explicit. This is what needs to happen, here are the details so we are tracking together, here is what I expect. Plus enough BIFF to "grease the skids" -- you are grateful the teacher responded and has worked hard this past year, and there's a tacit "vibe" from you that "you can't imagine the teacher doesn't care about your child's safety". You're "assuming the best" about the teacher ("surely you value my child's safety as much as I do") at the same time that you are being clear and assertive: "X will be happening, and Y will not be happening. Let me know by Z date if there are any issues".

Makes a lot of sense, and not weird at all to advocate for your child more once you got the response.

Hope that helps...

So..if it is true (I'm not doubting, just be clear that it is) that your kid has no experience doing this stuff solo or with loose supervision.

Then

I would clarify that in your return email.  (I do think one is called for)


"Hey..my child doesn't do these things without 1 on 1 supervision at home, so I would appreciate giving me a week or so heads up to practice future things like this or provide 1 on 1 supervision anytime a hot glue gun or similar device will be used by my child."

If this isn't possible, please provide alternate assignment for my child (then the language about when you want to know)

I'm going to agree with others that dealing with a PD "colors" the rest of our communication.  So be deliberate about being flexible, yet at same time you provide a hard date to eliminate unclarity.  The entire tone is factual, friendly and open.


Switching gears:  No criticism here and I may be an outlier on this...and well...I'm switching gears again.

I google "can a 9 year old use a hot glue gun"


I'll hush and recommend sending the follow up email.

Best,

FF

Thank you for the reply to off topic nonsense, lol.

Those were kind of the gauges and order of irritation I felt.  To be clear, I don’t think people need to behave how I think they need to (and I know you weren’t saying that).  Some of the difference is I believe H should behave within an acceptable range.

With hired services, I do believe they should do what they’ve been contracted to do, so can bend within reason — it’s raining, one time my old garbage guys wife went into labor and he didn’t come. I congratulated him and moved along.

This garbage company didn’t allow more than one bin but allowed you to pay to take extra…then the driver refused. Next.

The teacher was dismissive and just disappointed. It was like putting the blame back on the child.

Thanks IAR…really appreciate the input.

It does help. I did tell the teacher I didn’t want D using it without supervision. Response?  The email…and then told D that “your mom doesn’t want you using HGG.” 

Guess teacher wasn’t interested in supervising. A little annoyed it was said that way.

The HGG is over so makes some unnecessary and end of year, but an apology or some compassion would have been appreciated.  I thought teacher may have been concerned about liability, but think it doesn’t matter. If teacher had supervised, he would have known D got burned. Would have gone to nurse, would have been phone call home. Those things didn’t happen, so it speaks for itself.

The email ideas are so helpful and appreciated.  And for the help prioritizing.

Thanks FF.  No, I haven’t let this child use the hot glue gun at home. I don’t use one often anyway but the drippy glue burns, let alone if you touch the tip.

The blisters are broken and the skin raw. The burns were decent burns.

Agree on not making a big deal out of boo boos. One of the first lessons I learned as a mom was that kids react as big as your reaction to tumbles and boo boos. I keep my cool, they often do, too…unless it’s bad.

For reference, the Google search below yours is full of, not until middle school, not until 16-17, not ever. HGGs get near 350-400 degrees. Really shouldn’t be unsupervised with kids…IMO.