BPDFamily.com

Hi,

My npBPD flipped on the 23rd may. He has been drinking I would say excessively for the past few months,  He seems to drink as soon as he gets in from work and says that it is the only thing that "calms his mind" I would say he has been drinking 5/6 days a week.  Usually leaving one day a week where he is too tired and just falls asleep early.

On the sat night 22nd may, we got into a fight as i said that I have had enough of his drinking. When I came down around midnight I heard a poker wheel, he was so drunk he didnt realise I was in the room, he was squinting at the screen too drunk to focus yet betting away.  I was furious.  He left in the morning for work and then messaged me to say he wasnt coming home that night.  I said ok

He turned up the next day. I came home from my morning shift around 2:30 and was surprised to see him in the house as he had been instagramming from the beach in another town (1.5hrs away).  He immediately started shouting and I just ignored him and carried on putting the shopping away. That seemed to make him angrier. 

However, when I answered him back he didn't like that, even more so. He was enraged and was getting threatening. I left the house for a walk and came back and went upstairs.

He refused to talk to me.

Then his friend "turned up " and needed a place to stay so he came.  They spent the night drinking, he came downstairs and acted like everything was normal.


The next day he didnt go home. His friend checked into a hotel and he stayed with him for 4 days. He came back on friday night late around 10pm. He was fixated on some shorts that he had lost and was convinced he left them in the house. I was like, what shorts. He showed me a photo and I said I had never seen them before. He said that someone gave them him on Wed. I said youve not been home since then  He was confused and thought he had been.  I went to bed. As i was trying to get to sleep he came in the bedroom said everything wasnt normal between us and was rambling something about my last two days and giving me an ultimate which honestly I have no idea what it was about.

Sat he said he wasnt coming home but then turned up at 9:45 pm, I was on a zoom call and just moved rooms, he was only bothered about watching the football final.

I tried speaking to him at half time but he wouldnt.  aggressive telling me to leave the room and just to shut up. Saying he was leaving me and he never wants to see me again. At this point I reacted and told him to F*&K off.  Emotions got the better off me. He slept in the guest bedroom.

He left for work on Sunday and hasnt been back since.

He messaged me on Monday night saying he will never come back and to bin all his belongings.

He is fixated on the fact that I told him to F*&$ off and so he is doing what I told him to do.  Its infuriating he doesnt listen to me when i say not to drink, or smoke, or not to bet, to look after himself and sleep early.  He can just cling onto one phrase.

Saying that he is happy now without me and I will never see him again.


Today a letter from the bank came. I was curious so steamed it open as when hes drunk he has been saying he has financial problems but then wont tell me what they are. 

He has missed payments on a loan (what loan? ) since march and they are asking for the money immediately or it will affect his credit score.  Im wondering if this is what he is running from. Last time he flipped in Aus 2019 he also had financial problems

Btw weve been together since 2004 and live together. Wedding was postponed indefintely due to Covid so i think i have a right to know about loans and debts.

hi

I dont really have any words of wisdom, but I know what its like to feel u have to post here and i understand what you are going through mentally.
Its hard to stay strong and not react back, you were pushed to a point where you had to. just know that it will pass, always does..in one way or another. i totally get the fixated on the thing u said and doesnt blink an eyelid ar even realise his part. I have it almost bi weekly im told that he never wants to see me again along with some really hurtful comments. the fact you are writing here says you care about him and the relationship and are obviously a kind compassionate person. stay strong x xx

I came here just now looking for support with my alcoholic uBPDgf. She's pregnant and still drinking, although maybe not as much? It's sometimes hard to tell because she gets so dissociated and rages from BPD and it's hard to separate the BPD from the drinking. Sometimes she's not even drunk, but usually she is.  I try to focus on the behavior - it doesn't matter what is causing it at that exact moment - the behavior is what crosses my boundaries. I have to do this because sometimes she'll argue that she's not drunk (doesn't matter, she's still raging) or that she's only had a few drinks (doesn't matter, the behavior is unacceptable).

I've recently cut back on drinking a lot and only have a few drinks on Fridays from 5om to 7pm. The rest of the week, I'm happy to hang out, but I'm just not drinking. This discipline is a huge problem for her BPD, as she's usually very spontaneous. Today she slept until noon, raged at me, and then spontaneously asked me to go to lunch. We did, and neither of us had any drinks, but the seed was planted in her head.

She later went to work at 5pm, but called me at 7pm after clearly drinking. She said the restaurant she works at closed early because of some reasons she was sort of unclear about. Someone quit, or maybe they were overstaffed, but either way, she was drinking 2 hours after she'd left the house for work. She wanted me to come drink with her and I said no, I have plans tonight, which I do. I actually would have probably gone to join her if she'd planned it ahead of time and given me some notice, other than just calling me after starting to drink without me. And also, I don't agree with her drinking this much while pregnant. She's pushed that boundary so much that I almost forgot about it.  So, she called a few minutes ago, asked me to come drink with her, I firmly said "no, I have things I need to do tonight", and she hung up. Inevitably I will have to deal with a BPD rage when she gets home in 4 to 6 hours. I'll already be in bed but she'll wake me up (if she comes home). She's also been not coming home on random nights, always with an excuse.

I don't have any answers for you right now, but thank you for posting - I came here for support and your post about drinking was the first post I saw. Hang in there - I'll keep you posted

Hi ThanksFor Playing, Im so sorry to hear about what youre going through I can imagine how stressful that is for you whilst shes pregnant.  Keep doing what you can to look after yourself. Like you I have no words of wisdom but we can help each other out.


Carlywhi thanks, its so hard to stay calm at all times isn't it

How do you cope with this? I’ve not been in contact with me ex for Nearly two weeks now. He basically started saying how ill I was and I made him think he wasn’t right and how much he hates me and how I’m manipulative and fake and everything I’ve done has been fake and that he hates me. The last abusive message I got was nearly a week ago, but I won’t reach out, as why should I he’s said he hates me and doesn’t want to hear from me. Normally he would have apologised by now. But nothing, however I have noticed he has unblocked me which I find odd.

BreakingPoint, As hard as it can be, you have to know your limits and what is acceptable for you. Some situations are unacceptable to 'cope through' and you should never put up with abuse. Mean messages over two weeks without seeing you are, in my opinion, not okay. You made the best decision by not responding. I have experienced this in my relationship and I found that sticking to my boundaries to be the best decision. Regardless of the relationship and the health condition, people are responsible for their behaviour, and pwBPD are not exempt from this. Giving into abusive behaviour only further perpetuates it, and puts you at risk for harm - not something that you OR your partner wants.

BlackOrchid, your partner's current state (which, it sounds like at least, he has been in for quite some months now) may be out of your level of responsibility/competency to deal with. He sounds like he is being abusive towards you, and drinking does not help with reconciliation of emotional equilibrium. My pwBPD has told me that "drinking is honestly the only thing that has proved to quiet my mind when I am in extreme turmoil." Although he no longer drinks excessively (the most he will have is one beer every few days), he is still of the belief that alcohol numbs the brain. If your partner is drinking excessively there may be some really big things happening in his brain. You may need to reach out to people with the knowledge, expertise, and objectivity to aid in your situation.

Don't ever be embarrassed or isolate yourself. Loving a person with BPD is a team approach and we cannot do it in silos. Posting on here is a great choice, and I have found the individuals on this board to be insightful and rational.

Thanks jmbl,

thats literally word for word what he has said about drinking.  How did your partner come to the stage where they will only drink 1 beer now?


I know he needs help but I dont know how I can assist him with that atm.  As he doesnt want to have contact with me atm and I know in the past that when he has done this and when I have contacted him it has only made it worse.  So trying to keep busy and just leave him alone right now.


BreakingPoint i dont think there really is one way of coping.  I mean last week I barely ate as I was so distraught and mentally exhausted, but as hard as it is we just have to do what we can to look after us.  He's obv carrying on without me so I need to make sure I take care of me.  I dunno maybe after so many episodes ive just gotten used to it now.  Hes more stable now than he used to be,  his last split was Aug 2019 and that was the longest  till around Oct/nov. I was actually surprised that he didnt split during the last year, mabe ive just learnt the tools and know what to do when i see the signs in him...

I don't think you can help him right now, BlackOrchid. He is far gone and your words/actions will not get through to him.

My partner went to a 3-month rehabilitation centre that focused on holistic wellness. Not everyone can access this resource, and he is incredibly grateful that he was able to. I don't know where he'd be without it. It was here that he received his dx as BPD and began counselling/medication. He still says that alcohol and opiates are better than medication - although I believe his regular medications DEFINITELY aids in his reduction of substance use. We both work in health care, and support harm reduction principles - responsible use for the right intentions helps maintenance of sobriety.

But to be honest, I believe that his ability to have one (or less than) beer comes from him - I'm not sure exactly what stops him from drinking more, he says he doesn't want to ever feel drunk or feel hungover. My thoughts are that excessive substance use has caused him so much harm, and he has finally (after 2 decades of substance use) experienced the joys that come from day-to-day living.

Do YOU have supports? Who are they and how do they support you? Do they have an understanding of BPD? What about people on his side of the family, can they provide you with supports and guidance to deal with the day-to-day turmoil that you are experiencing?

I wonder how much certain addictive behaviors (alcohol, drugs, gambling, social media, etc.) are linked to a serotonin deficiency.

Since anxiety, impatience, depression, mood swings, sugar cravings, agitation, and insomnia are all signs of seratonin deficiency, it would make sense that this would be amplified in someone with BPD who already has difficulty regulating their emotions.

Cat Familiar thats an interesting thought and one I feel could use some research...


Jmbl Im feeling stuck and alone. Im an expat in Turkey and cant get home now due to Covid.  Turkey is on the red list so its just an impossibilty to get home.  His family isnt really supportive.  Mental issues are really a thing here.  They are more worried about his drinking.  His bro is a doc and wants to come when he can ( he lives 7 hrs away, noone is here) and take him to a doc. They all want him to get therapy but dont really know what they can do.

My family just think i say he has BPD as an excuse. My friends are sick of it. Everyone just says I ruined my life by sticking by him and so they dont really want to talk about it.

Another night NC and he still didnt come home.   thats night 4 this week now. I have no idea what hes doing as he didnt take a bag with him, no change of clothes or anything

I took a trip to Turkey with friends when I was younger and had no pwBPD in my life - really enjoyed it. Mostly west coast - Istanbul, Izmir, Bodrum, Rhodes. Sorry you're currently stuck there.

I'm currently dealing with a "not coming home" cycle too - about 1-2 nights a week.

Last night uBPDgf (pregnant) came home around 11pm after work (seemed like she'd had a few drinks but I didn't say anything).  Talked to me a little bit about the baby, felt her tummy and I smiled... wrong move... "you're happy about all of this? F*** you! You wouldn't be so happy if you had to carry the baby! You have no idea what it's like"... And into a rage... I wasn't giving any pushback at this point... The rage escalated as she got herself worked up with zero talking from me. "I'm sleeping on the couch! I can't even be around you"... She goes to the couch...

A few minutes later... "I can't believe you're doing this to me! Making me sleep on the couch! You're such an a******"... I pointed out that she was welcome to sleep in the bed... Plenty of room... I had not suggested she sleep on the couch and I was not "forcing" her to sleep on the couch... "well I'm not sleeping in the same bed... You need to sleep somewhere else or I'm leaving"... She starts packing a bag... I got up and went to go sleep in the guest bedroom... "it's too late! I'm leaving! I can't believe I can't even sleep in my own house!"... I'm laying in the guest bedroom as she slams the door on her way out and doesn't come home for the night...I moved back to my bed

There wasn't even a fight in this case... She just worked herself up and took off and I let it happen.

As far as the drinking... It's a big problem but it's also "just another boundary" that she tries to push... She's pregnant and at the beginning she would loudly announce that she can't drink anymore... Then quickly (within days) moved to "one glass of wine"... Then came home super drunk a few different times falling down... Then drinking several drinks and arguing with me that they still only added up to "one glass" because they were diluted (so now we're arguing scientifically about alcohol content and the big picture is lost)

And if I don't say anything... She pushes it... Drinks more... Drinks in front of me... Like she's pushing the boundary and just daring me to say anything... Which leads to a rage...

Believe it or not, this is actually BETTER than I've been handling things in the past - less fighting and fewer rages - but still frustrating and I know I could have a less drama-filled life if that's my choice.

Yeah Turkey is beautiful,  but its been 18mths since I could leave now so Im def homesick



Im glad that its better than it was in the past and i hope you have enough support around you to deal with her when she just leaves like that.

I've gotten to the point where I can 'sense' certain days and situations when she just wants to leave and disappear. Really, she ALWAYS wants to disappear from her feelings, that's the gist of BPD, but I can sense when she's actually going to leave for the night.  And it usually is preceded by a huge rage against me ... sometimes out of nowhere, even if I'm asleep and not fighting back.  She will literally wake me up to yell at me and declare that she is leaving because of me.  I want to tell her "you can just leave and let me sleep" - we both know you're leaving anyway once you start this particular kind of rage.

Basically 1) she wants to leave to avoid 'things' but 2) she intuitively feels sort of guilty, or knows it's not reasonable behavior, so 3) she starts something to blame me for her leaving.

In this case, I'm pretty certain she's not cheating (although she has in the past).  She usually stays with her ex-boyfriend, whom I know on a cordial basis.  I honestly don't think he wants to be dealing with her showing up at his house at all hours of the night.  This is triangulation.  Sometimes she stays with a friend.  Often it's because she's drinking, and feels guilty about THAT, and doesn't want me to see that, so she rages, and feels guilty about THAT, and then disappears while blaming me, and that satisfies all her guilt.

But my point at the beginning of the post is that I can often see it coming now, and I just step out of the way and let her go, because that's what she wants to do anyway and I'm not changing that.  I'm talking about like earlier in the day, if it's shaping up to be a day where she doesn't have to work tomorrow, but has some stresses at home, like errands to run or her own laundry to do, I can tell she's looking for a way to avoid those stresses/responsibilities. And sure enough, the "rage and disappear" happens in the evening.  Then she returns the next day (or two) and still hasn't solved her problems, but is more calm.  It sometimes feels like living with a teenager - it's not a great relationship dynamic!  Still working on it, and maybe one day I'll walk away.  But this is how I'm managing the chaos at the moment.

Sorry for being blunt here.

She’s drinking whilst pregnant? If she doesn’t care enough to stop to risk potentially hurting her unborn child then why do you think she will ever change the way she is with you?

I’m so so sorry you’re having to experience this and I hope you find the strength to choose a life in which you can keep your own peace. I completely got lost in my downward spiral and it’s my biggest regret!

We can all agree that drinking while pregnant is not good and shows a profound lack of empathy. That her child might potentially suffer lifelong impacts from her behavior portends a disengagement from her role as a mother.

I can’t offer any advice, but I’m very sorry you’re dealing with this.  :hug: :hug:

h's just messaged me blaming me for everything, he drinks because i make him angry, he created a tinder account because i made him angry and so on.


says he's not coming home, to put everything in the bin


why cant he take responsibility for his own actions? instead of blaming me, at a loss to what to reply

Blackorchid,

I can't help but notice your first post here was made in 2012,  so I know you have more than a passing familiarity with the tools stressed by this web site.

Which tool do you think you could best apply in this situation.?

What skill has helped in the past when he has experienced a mental health decline?

Hi babyducks

Yes Ive tried a set message , i dont know maybe another set message but i dont know what to put.

I feel exhausted.  Seeing the final demand letter coming this week and him speaking about suicide the past few months i think has left me at a loss the time as to what to do. if that makes sense

Do you mind a few questions?

You've been in this spot with him before right?  Several times right?   Is this time different or is it the same type of dysregulation?  If I remember correctly he does this about once a year.

Do you feel comfortable sharing your SET message here?  Perhaps we can tweak it.

How do you feel about him being on Tinder?   Is that acceptable to you?

Thanks babyducks  yes you remembered correctly  he does this around the same time of year every year.  surprisingly last year he didnt.  which was a miracle in the pandemic esp as he was furloughed and i think money issues could be a trigger to him.

I might go through the old threads tonight to find a common theme.

he's drinking esculated and he kept taking my money which was what started it this time.  He becomes more focused on drink and football.  for two months he wouldnt even eat dinner as he just wanted to drink after work.  so ive been feeling more and more alone but thanks to everything ive learnt on here just focusing on keeping me busy and not escalating him.

tinder is unacceptable to me.  i have told him before i wont accept him messaging girls online.  unsure what to do as he has pushed that boundary now. as well as becoming aggresive to me on the mon 2 weeks ago.


nc seems to dysrgulate him as well but just sent the set message at the beginnning of the week as a check in point

i sent

I miss you and i want you to know that . I know that you are angry now and you dont want to talk to me.

I said to F^%& off when i was angry and i'm sorry for that   I said it because you had hurt me and i responded in anger.  I didn't mean it literally.



Also he was at this point threatening to get me deported and was really aggressive and i responded to him ( on the day before he left)
he has said that saying that was a test to see if i would believe it and shows how poorly i think of him

he's messaged this morning asking when im out so he can collect his things as he doesnt want to see me. I said i would like to see you. he said no because we would only fight.  I sent him a link to couples therapy he said maybe but its expensive.


then he asked to borrow 25 dollars...

Here is what I think blackorchid,


I think football can be a trigger too.   I'm not sure if the time of year is at the end or the start of the football schedule but you always seem to mention that football and his mates are involved.



you know he is an unstable and occasionally unreliable partner.   is it time to seriously look at keeping your money separate from him?   in  a place where your funds can't fuel his addictions.    my Ex was/is Bipolar and could become maniac.    We had shared funds yes but I was careful to keep money secure, away from where she could access it, if she had a mental health break.   how did he get your money?    are you saying he went into possessions and took it?   

I think it is especially crucial since you are living in a country not your home place of birth to have an emergency fund in case you need to make a rapid exit.  how can you set that up?


this is your boundary and its up to you to decide how to enforce it.   what are your choices here?


Let's do a quick review of SET and JADE for anyone following along.

SET = Support,Empathy and Truth.   JADE = Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain.


a SET statement opens with support for a reason.   Support dials down the emotional reactivity of the dysregulated person.   Remember you are talking to a person who is not in a normally reactive state at the moment.      You opened with a statement that is mostly about you.   Your feelings and thoughts.    For a pwBPD who reacts strongly to blame and shame, for a pwBPD who is struggling with highly intense emotions, you want a mild supportive statement that focus on either the neutral or on him.     something like 'things have been difficult lately still I want you to know I am thinking of you'.     if I had to guess I would say he read your statement more as "i miss you and i want you to know that its all your fault'.


a couple of thoughts here:    you are telling him what he emotions and thoughts are.    quite frankly if you told me what my emotions and thoughts are, I would be a little frustrated with the conversation myself, and I am not in the middle of a mental health crisis.    you aren't affording him, or offering him a way out of the situation.    "You are angry and don't want to talk to me."    There is very little he can do with that statement other than agree.    You are  :cursing: right I am angry. compare what you said to something like 'we don't have to talk right now but I am hoping in a few days we can exchange some more pleasant words'


This is straight up and down JADE.    I was angry when I said F off = Justify.   I said it because you had hurt me = Defend and Explain.   Your apology gets lost in amongst the JADE.     and again pwBPD respond poorly to even perceived criticism.     You had hurt me.   You had made me angry.    Compare this:    'Things got said in the heat of the moment that I really regret.    I'd like to apologize for my part in this. '



blunt question blackorchid.   where do you want this relationship to go?    what do you want from the future of this relationship?   and how do you plan to handle the 'really aggressive' boundary?

hope this helps
'ducks

can you articulate why you would like to see him?

what do you think is going to be different this time?   

and how are you going to contribute to making it different?

Hi baby ducks

youre completely right, it wasnt a great message. it was very late at night and i searched for how to write a set message  i remember thinking at the time it wasnt great but it was from another websites format and i can see now that its totally not set

 i def think football is a trigger for him and all the regret he has that comes with it. he was with old teammates the week this happened that now play at a national level and i think he compare his life to theirs. amplified by his debt probs, he gave all the money he ever made from football to his dad and then had an injury which cut his career short.


honestly right now im questioning everything and if i even want this. he steps over any boundary i set and he promises to get therapy but never does. ill write a longer message after work as about to start teaching again now

He messaged me at 10:20 pm can I come home. I called him. There’s a 10 pm Covid curfew and asked where he is and he said “out”  I said you can’t be out be careful there’s curfew he said can I come home to sleep I’ll be there in 10 mins. Then added I want to talk to you

He got home. Said that he has discussed it with his new BFF (he seems to become insanely close to a new person every time he splits), this person has never met me. And that after talking it through with him , the guy has made him realise how bad we are for each other that we can’t be together any more and that’s it it’s over. When I went to speak he wouldn’t listen. Said there’s nothing to say. He’s made the decision. It’s over. We’re finished.  To not go over the same things again. We’re done. I tried to speak and he immediately got angry and said if I try to talk he will leave the house and go to a hotel.

Any thoughts on what to do

maintain your own sense of calm.  don't over react.

allow him to say what he feels (as long as he isn't verbally abusive).  don't argue with him.

leave the door open for further calming of the waters.

Yes I came and went to bed. It was from bed that I wrote that message. The more I’m thinking about it the angrier I’m getting. To message to come home and turn up so late at night and do that is a complete lack of respect for me. When I responded to him after he said his part yesterday (he talked for a good 10-15 mins at me) he was on his phone already. I asked why are you on your phone I listened to you. He was ordering beer. Part of me wonders if he just had nowhere to sleep and that’s why he came

I stayed in bed till he left for work this morning so we haven’t spoken since

blackorchid,

from what you have written it sounds as if you have been in this place before with your SO.    more than once.    there have been many break up and make up cycles in your relationship.    it may be that this is the best he is able to function in a relationship.    I am not saying it is.   I am saying it sounds as if this is the highest level he can function at in a relationship.

from what I am reading it appears you are at a cross roads.   I see your choices as:

• accept that he has limited relationship skills and become the emotional leader in the relationship
• continue to bump along the way you are
• start to detach and disengage from the relationship

 

what do you think?     

'ducks

Yeah you’re right baby ducks.

I feel at a loss. We were going to get married last year and start for a baby. But then due to Covid the pandemic happened. Last summer was the first summer that he didn’t dysregulate and I don’t know I thought we had made a turn

I honestly don’t want to go through this every summer. I would like a summer where I get to enjoy it with him. And if we’re to have a family I want that to be stable. 

I worry about what will happen to him as last time he was drunk driving and got caught, got hit by a car. Just went down a very very bad cycle.

It’s so frustrating as I would just like him to listen to me so that I can say all of this to him and say look if you leave this time. You can’t come back. I can’t keep being treated like this. But I know he’s not in the place to listen.

Yes it is frustrating.   

there was a member here a long time ago that used to say "We need to be responsible for 100% of our 50% of the relationship."

Let's be brutally honest.    Waiting for him to 'wake up and listen' is a pretty poor strategy.    It's not worked in the past.   It isn't going to work now.

again I am going to ask you to think about -

what do you think is going to be different this time?   

and how are you going to contribute to making it different?

what skill or tool are you going to apply to which problem?

'ducks

That’s a good quote


I’ll re read the lessons on here  and try to just keep busy during this time and look after me.


I know I can’t set a boundary now when he’s dysregulated as to I won’t accept this behaviour and him leaving.  Actually I have told him that in the past. After he did it in 2019


I’ll try the set message today and see what happens. The better one by you baby ducks  :)

Everyone is telling me to just leave him and I get it from their side. They don’t like seeing me hurt when he does this. Part of me is wondering if I should just call it quits this time. I’m getting to old to do this again and again.

That’s a good quote


I’ll re read the lessons on here  and try to just keep busy during this time and look after me.


I know I can’t set a boundary now when he’s dysregulated as to I won’t accept this behaviour and him leaving.  Actually I have told him that in the past. After he did it in 2019

maybe start with something smaller?   something less difficult?   something you might find more useful now?

what is going on right now that you could validate?   how are you at validating?   


how do you feel when people tell you to leave?    how do you feel when think about calling it quits?

Oh I’m not sure how that posted twice.

I’m not too sure right now what to validate.  I’ll have a think and a read.

Part of me gets it. They don’t understand why I stay and they don’t like seeing me upset. People think I say BPD as an excuse. My sister doesn’t believe it. Says he’s just a nasty manipulative person and I get a lot of I told you so. Which doesn’t help. In fact it makes me feel worse.

I know they have my best interest at heart and that I deserve better than feeling this way


I’m very mixed emotions right now. One second I can feel ok with it and think I deserve more than this and something more stable and the next I’m totally not ok.

He responded to the SET message that thanks but he is working and he won’t have a day off this week and he doesn’t want to see me and he doesn’t want to fight.

Later he added forget everything there is no more us.

that's probably the best response you were going to get to a set message right now.   he didn't rage and he didn't threaten.    let's look at the later addition, of forget everything.    what do you think was going on with that?   why did he add that?    what was he doing by adding that?    dig deep.    look at the way it played out.    what was going on?    how would you describe the late addition?   do you see it as manipulative?    do you see it as something else?   to apply the right tool you need to know what you are applying it too.


having a mental illness does not mean you are not responsible for your behavior.  having a mental illness does not mean you get to behave any old way and its okay.    our partners having a mental illness does not mean we should allow them to run over us like a freight train.  having an addiction doesn't mean being financially irresponsible is okay.   

you have heard of the definition of insanity right blackorchid?   insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.   one of you in the relationship has to do the very hard work of changing.   changing to either make the relationship the very best it can be and protecting yourself from the worst or changing to stop this slow rolling cycle of destruction you are on.

can it be you?

'ducks

Hi Blackorchid,

BabyDucks raised so many good questions.

And if I remember this correctly, your rollercoaster  with him started already many,  many years ago?

Despite of the rollercoaster, I understood that you were lately even planning  to get married.

You told that your family and friends do not like him, not the way he treats you.

Now,  could you please really think about why do YOU like
Him?

What is so very special in him?

How does he support you?

Could he hone the best out of you?

Would he be a good farther ( if you want kids)

Hi Vinceta, 

Yes this rollercoaster began a very long time ago. Back then I think I stayed because I was in a dark place and wanted to help him too. I dunno. I’m trying to find an online therapist to help me see clearly why


Turks are different to us westerners and everyone says the same thing that marriage means something more here. Then it means committed. For me it’s not actually an issue. We live like a married couple and for me that is enough. He longs to me married. I think that kept him grounded last year actually.

When he is stable my family and friends also like him. It’s when he does this they don’t. He is a good guy when stable and we have a nice relationship

Baby ducks yes that’s the best I could hope for from a SET message right now. I think he added the forget everything because maybe he was looking for a reaction from me and also because he has messaged me today and told me that he has a new home. So here we go with that one again. He won’t tell me any details. Said he wants to come and collect some of his things today. That “he doesn’t need to talk to me”. So he doesn’t care if I need to talk. When I added in working from home all day today so it would be nice to see you. He sent a very angry voice message saying why am I always trying to provoke him and to make him angry. Why am I always trying to anger him. Without me in his life he’s not angry. I’m the source of all his anger.


I know this isn’t true as he’s also had arguments the past few weeks with his family. And is barely talking to them. His mum called today and theyre at a loss for what to do. They all live hours away. I didn’t know when he did this in 2019 he blocked them all from calls and removed himself from the family groups  on social media. I remember too that he did the same to old friends. So his family don’t want to say anything to him as they fear being blocked.

The only change I can’t see baby ducks is this time I don’t let him back. His mum says don’t let him back without therapy.

I’m tired. Since we got engaged Xmas 2019. Things have been really good. A few bumps but I navigating them and we were fine. Due to Covid all my expat friends have moved home. I can’t get home due to Covid restrictions and so no one can visit me too. I just feel depleted, lonely and utterly worn out

What does anyone make of the fact that he keeps saying that he wants to come and get some clothes. But then he doesn’t turn up. Again today he didn’t come, he said it 3 times last week but didn’t come.

Any thoughts?

What do you say to him when he tells you he is coming to get some clothes?

Can you say a little more how that conversation plays out?

So on Tuesday  he wrote I will come and take some of my things and then I will come another day for me. Is it ok?
I said ok what time. He said he didn’t know. Asked if I was in or out all day. I said in. He didn’t respond

Monday night. he asked if I could pack some of his clothes or if he could come when I’m not home. Then said he had a new home. I said he can come whenever he want and what new home. No response.  Hours later he added he wants his things nothing else.


Monday morning can I come and collect some clothes but I don’t want to see you because I don’t want to argue. I said I don’t want to argue either. He said it’s too late. Then no more messages till Monday night.

Saturday morning he asked me to pack his stuff and if not put it in the bin. I sent the SET message and that was why he responded. Saturday very late he said he needs to come and get some clothes but he can’t because he is scared of me. I asked why is he scared of me. He said because I argue ( he constantly starts arguing not me. If I leave the room he continues raging to an empty room). I said it’s your home you can come whenever you want

Last Monday he said he would think about therapy. Couples therapy. Then after Wednesday he started talking about starting a new life.

I forgot to write. This morning he wrote can I take the TV box. Or will you use it. I said you can take whatever you want. He said I’m only talking to you about my things. Not about us because we are finished. I don’t want to block you, if you make me angry I will block you. I asked where are you staying. If you have nowhere to stay I can ask a friend to stay at hers because she’s going abroad for 2 weeks. He said he has a house. He want to take his things. Don’t make him angry. Don’t create problems. If you make one more problem in the house I will call the police and I will collect my things with the police.

I have no idea why he said  that as I’ve done nothing.


I said I’ve not made any problems I haven’t stopped you collecting your things.

He said what time will you be out as I really don’t want to see you.

I said I’m home all day I just have a couple of Zoom meetings.

He said if I come home can you go out. I said fine whatever you want.  I don’t understand why you’re treating me like this.

He said I told you not to do things but you did them. You do what I tell you not to do. Don’t make me mad. I hate you

You are missing his message.    He is talking about his feelings.   You are replying with facts and fact based questions.   You didn't acknowledge his feelings at all.   And immediately flipped the conversation to facts.  It's his home to.    What new house.

this probably struck him as invalidating.    He is worried about his clothes.    He is worried about seeing you.   

As you know communication with a pwBPD takes special attention and skills.   It's important to acknowledge their concerns with out becoming responsible for them.

How could you have helped him problem solve this?

Black orchid.     Let me speak plainly.   If you read back this conversation who is amping up the emotional reactivity here?   Who is adding more volatility to an already volatile situation.   Clue.   It's not him.  If you want to save this relationship I would strongly suggest you do the hard work of becoming the emotional leader and learn the communication tools.

He’s coming now. Told me ill be here in ten minutes. Leave the house I don’t want to see you

How is he talking about his feelings?

Have you left the house?

This is all about his feelings.  He is frightened of the intensity of the rage.  Scared of it happening again.    Exhausted from the arguments.    Worried about his possessions.    And feels homeless at the moment.

You seem to have some understanding that he struggles with several different challenges.    You don't seem to get that you need to respond in ways that match his capabilities.

So should I leave the house before he comes like he asked.

Is there something unreasonable about this request?   He is on the  lease/mortgage?   He has an equal right to the property?   He hasn't had a change of clothes in how long?   You don't know where he has been showering or doing laundry?

Why wouldn't you want to leave the house?

Because it’s the first chance in over a week to see him. I left the house. If he takes everything that’s it isn’t it. I just didn’t want this to happen. He was going on and on that he gave me a three day warning to stop this happening. But he didn’t say anything.   I just wanted him to not pack and leave

It was my boundary set in 2019. If you pack up from this house again. There’s no coming back

You can't force someone to stay with you.

You have no idea what or how much he is going to pack.

Would you describe yourself as codependent?

He messaged that he left. I’m home. He took everything.

As painful as this is, you have an answer now.   

Yes. He also took my cash - my kitty for when I go home. A mixture of euros dollars and pounds. To pay his bank debt. Says he’ll repay me. So I have my answer and then some.


He’s messaged me don’t be sad, be happy and work.


I’m done. I’m done with this life with him. I fell strangely calm. I’m not putting myself through this again.

When he came in the house he was rambling. That my family didn’t help us. That if they had helped with money and a home we would have been ok. You’re right about the homelessness feeling.  In other messages I had told him to come home and this was his home. Asked where he was.  He got angry and threatened to block me whenever I said it’s his home.

I'm sorry. This is painful.

Do you still have your stuff in the house? Do you have enough money to eat and keep the power on? Maybe try to focus on a plan for yourself at the moment. Don't worry right now about whether this is really the end (even though you feel like it is now).

Do you want to try to get back to be with family and friends? Is that the goal? Covid restrictions are changing daily and you might try to plan your travels, even if it will be difficult.

Do you feel like you want to stay in the house by yourself? What feels most comfortable for you right now? (regardless of whether or not you will ever see him again) Maybe "comfortable" is the wrong word, because I know it's all uncomfortable right now, but what feels like your best next move?

TFP

Dear black orchid,

So your partner took your money without your permission?
This should be a criminal act also in Turkey,

However, especially knowing the latest politics in Turkey...might become difficult...?


I know that you are hurting right now and my big hug: :hug: :hug:for you.

Could you see this also as an chance, for something far better?
 :hug:
V die

Hi again black orchid,

You are not alone. And many on these  boards have been there, with somewhat similar situations.

We do understand.

And keep on posting!

Hi Black orchard,

Just wanted to ask how are you doing?

P :hug:

Warm regards
Vincenta

Hi Vinceta I tried to check in but I kept getting a strange message that the site wasn’t available in my region. At least I’m back in now.

I feel exhausted and confused. When he told me he had left the house. He tagged on I’ll come tomorrow.

Later that night he messaged that he just wants to be alone and to work and pay off his debts. That he’s going to get therapy.

He messaged me Friday night to get a code sent to my email for a Netflix type thing and then after I sent it he responded this is what you wanted. I have done nothing.  Please don’t force me. I’m good like this.

When he saw me typing a reply he wrote. Don’t make me angry I don’t want to block you. Don’t write to me. So I just put ok.


Sorry I should have been clearer he only took his things not mine. So I have everything left in the apartment

I’m so confused as to where his debt has come from because during the pandemic I have been paying for everything. As thankfully the majority of my students were happy to move online. He was furloughed for the majority of 2020 but my mindset was just gratefulness. At least we had my money to pay for everything.

He started to become angry  at the beginning of may. We had a three week lockdown and school holidays. The past couple of months my lessons have shifted from online to face to face again. The kids, rightly so, are fed up with online. (Here they’ve had maybe 30 days at school since the pandemic, all online). So during the 3 week lesson it was the first time that my money took a hit. I said I can use my savings for the rent, but now I’m not getting paid till after lockdown after the rent is due. He said no no don’t worry ive got it with my wage and he paid it. But maybe a week later he started getting irritated asking when I was paying the rent back as he had to pay the bank, but wouldn’t explain what at the bank needed paying back. In hindsight that’s when I should have posted here.


Everything’s back to normal now so I have money for everything. Just not the saving pot that he took.


When he was in the house he was jumping from topic to topic. Saying he’s fed up of football life. Always packing bags , always moving never having a home. He had an injury which cut his career short 3/4 years ago. So I don’t know why he was saying that. Then saying we didn’t marry. If we married everything would have been ok. But again that was due to the pandemic not me.

I met with his work friends, they said at work he is paranoid. He thinks that the managers are watching him waiting for him to mess up and then they will sack him. Actually he is his assistant manager and he keeps saying to him, no one is doing that and stop thinking like that. But he keeps saying it again and again.

He hadn’t took a day off in 3 weeks. Says he sold lessons for his day off so he’s working them. This friend and the sport manager made him have a day off on Thursday and made him go to his missed vaccine appointment. That’s another thing that doesn’t make sense. He was so happy to book his appointment a month ago for his 2nd vaccine. Then didn’t go. So I guess that’s why he came on Thursday and he was here. They’ve told me he is staying in the hotel lodgings. Which is near to the hotel and in the tourist resort town about 1/2 an hour away

hello blackorchid,

sorry to hear that you are going through this.    during this time, remember to take good care of you.   be proactive in taking care of you, however that looks.


you are not surprised by this,  right?    now that he has removed some of the stress off him by ending the relationship he feels more comfortable communicating.     even if its communicating to say "I don't want to talk".

we say this over and over and over here because its remarkably true:   pwBPD (or other mental illness) see their emotions as being caused by others or by events outside themselves, with no belief that they have any sort of control over their emotions.    And they believe that the only way to change how they feel is to get other people or events to change.


he is managing his emotions by managing the amount and the content of the contact he has with you.     


as I read this I think this is a big  red-flag red-flag.   how do you see it?


what you are describing sounds like a pretty severe break from reality.     if he isn't aware that he isn't a footballer any longer he has decompensated


this isn't about who is right and who is wrong, who is to blame, who isn't, who is more deserving or less deserving.    with some one who is grappling with a serious untreated mental illness and some type of substance abuse problem finding fault is not helpful.   it doesn't matter if it was due to the pandemic or  if it was due to something else.    right now what he is saying - at a very simplistic level is that he feels like nothing is okay and if you had gotten married everything would have been okay.    he's not okay,... he knows it (again he knows it in a very rudimentary way)  and he is floundering and flailing trying to find any cause other than himself about why this is not okay.


I see a lot of red flags in what you describe and this is another one.   typically a pwBPD doesn't display as many symptoms in the work place because they are so adverse to shame and blame.    the last year of the pandemic has been tough on everyone,   everyone has struggled with their coping skills and emotional management.    again I am only reading this from the other end of the internet but it sounds like he isn't managing things well right now.


No it wouldn't make sense.     you are completely correct about that.   mental illnesses are not logical.   they don't make sense.    they do fit patterns but they are often abnormal patterns.   

I understand you are exhausted and confused.  you have a lot going on.   still most of this post was about him, so let me ask; where are you with things today?   how do you feel?    what would you like to see happen in the next few days?

'ducks

Hi baby ducks
Thank you for replying

I’m trying my best to take care of me. Took a day of work to clear my head and just focusing on taking it day by day., well hour by hour feeling by feeling. It’s a bit of a rollercoaster of emotions right now


Yes I see massive red flags about the debt and his reaction to the banks too. His family have been leeches for money his whole life and took all the money he ever made from football. Again a couple of months ago his dad had a new debt he needed help with and his brother (a doctor) needed help. I feel that they see him as a bank. It’s def a trigger for him but not one he will openly talk about. I know he gave money to his brother during our last split in 2019 so they he could get out of military service. I’m now wondering if he took a bank loan out for that. But it’s just my speculation.

At the time when he was asking me for the rent back I was just irritated and hurt and fed up. It was lockdown so I wasn’t in the best place myself, The uk had put Turkey on the red list and he knew that I hadn’t been paid yet and my lessons was severely reduced.


Re the football and him talking about the past as if it’s the present. When he came home on the fri evening in week 1 after being away for 4 nights. He was the sort of the same. He showed me a pic with a footballer who had been staying in the hotel and referred to him as his “friend”.  When I asked how he knew him he exploded saying his a professional footballer, I’m a professional footballer of course we know each other. Again I was internally thinking what? You haven’t played in years and when you did you weren’t that level. I didn’t say anything as he was so deregulated at the time. I just went to bed as I was in terrible pain that night.

Also, a couple of hours later that night he came into the bedroom and woke me up. I was half asleep. I thought he was telling me that he was leaving in 2 days. On Thursday he said that he told me I had two days to decide if I want to be with him
Or not and if not he will move out. That wasn’t what I heard… part of why he’s saying this is what I wanted. I didn’t contact him within the two days…


That makes total sense what you said about him talking about the wedding and stuff. Thank you


Yeah I don’t think he’s managing it well at all and I was very surprised to hear how paranoid he is at work



I’m honestly not too sure what I want to happen. I’m trying to just give myself space to think and figure things out. Today I felt down. The days feel very long. Work will be quiet this week; the plus from that is I get time to figure things out but the flip is I have a lot of empty time on my hands.  I’m just trying to take it as it comes. If that makes sense. Very grateful for you all here and for this safe space to share. No one is supportive, everyone just says your better off without him and why did you put up with him so long

Black orchid.

I wouldn’t wish this experience on anyone but unless someone has been in a relationship with a Bdp or understood that they are co dependant as to the reasons why they stay then they won’t understand.

What they are saying is coming from a good place and is something that you would also wish for a person to understand if the shoe was on the other foot.

It’s extremely hard to talk to people about this. I’m in the same boat, in fact I can’t talk to any of my friends about it because it just confuses me more, I forget this is a mental illness and I start worrying about things that I can not control or tbh are my problem. I’d recommend  finding a professional to speak to it just stick to this board..

That is just my personal experience but honestly I feel you!  This board and a few individuals who inbox me have been god sends

hello blackorchid,

I understand its hard to hear that from our friends and family.    I heard it too, or some version of it at least.

still those are legitimate opinions and concerns.    I am guessing some of the same thinking brings you here.     its important to be honest about the challenges facing you.    sometimes that honesty is unpleasant.     

this is one of my favorite quotes here on this website, its about having realistic expectations:


its very important to be realistic and deal with the practical reality that is right in front of us.    even if it is unpleasant.    especially if it is unpleasant.   

only you can say for sure if this is a ~bad~ person behaving badly, a mentally ill person acting out, an immature person being childish, an alcoholic in the middle of a bender.   or some combination of all of the above.    that's up to you to figure out and make your peace with.    it is up to you to accept the relationship for what it is.    not hope for it to be something different.  or hope your friends and family will react different.

this is very hard stuff.

it sounds like you are in regular contact with him again?


let's look at this through BPDFamily eyes.    how is it helping you to have this conversation?  do you think this is another version of the blame game?  who is right and who is wrong?    is this another distorted reality?    how does it help him to engage in this conversation?    is it re-enforcing his distorted reality?  allowing him to shift blame?   "I'm drinking too much, gambling too much and giving you the silent treatment but You didn't respond right to something I did (or may not have done) at 2AM so its your fault."

btw these are not rhetorical questions.   I am really hoping you think about the questions I pose and take a shot at answering them.   *)

'ducks

No not in contact. sorry I should have been clearer he said that when he was collecting his things on Thursday about a conversation 3 weeks ago.

He’s only messaged because he needed the code for the online streaming platform.


The conversation in question doesn’t help me. It just makes me rethink things and go round and round things in my head getting nowhere as he has refused to have an actual conversation with me for a month now.  Yes I think it allows him to distort his reality and blame me so that he has done nothing wrong. Even when I answered I didn’t understand that. Ok I’ll answer now stay. He said it was too late. Maybe it’s a way of him projecting onto me. So I’m at fault. And im wrong and fits in with the narrative of that that’s he’s telling himself right now.

I understand where my friends and family are coming from and unless you’ve lived through it I don’t think there is a way to understand.

I’m trying to use this time now to focus on me instead of focusing on him and worrying about him. There’s nothing that I can do to help him now. If I contact him he’s angry anyway so I’m not contacting him….

Did you provide him the code?

Best,

FF

Yes I gave him the code  he just said thanks. Then later that night said this is what you wanted. I did nothing. Please don’t force me. Like this, I’m good

I'm still getting caught up on this thread and your story.  I'm curious to know more about how come he can't get his own codes and other administrative tasks.

I'm trying to wrap my head around someone that refuses to have "actual conversations" with you about important matters, yet still appears to expect you to provide him with basic administrative services.  Perhaps I'm missing something.


Perhaps more importantly...I'd be interested in your answers to BabyDucks questions.


Best,

FF

Hi  formflier. So the streaming service is linked to my email and not his, so he has no way of getting the codes.

No contact yesterday again.  I’ve just woken up and need to go and walk the dog. Then I’ll sit and write a longer reply

 I just stumbled across an article elsewhere about object constancy, which is the ability to believe that a relationship is stable and intact despite setbacks or disagreements. For those who lack object constancy, any kind of distance can trigger them to re-experience the original pain of being left alone/dismissed/abandoned. Which further destabilizes them.  I feel like this makes total sense regarding him right now and the distance between us, which he has created by not coming home.  Object constancy, takes its name from object permanence, which is the understanding that objects are there even when we can't see them, babies don't have this understanding and so once they can't see an object they think it doesn't exist anymore. So object constancy is this for emotions. I feel like this explains how he splits black and white, and can say it's over, not coming home; he distanced himself and so now the emotions don't exist for him? I don't know if I'm able to articulate this very well right now, I hope you can follow.  Maybe that's why he yo-yoed back and forth saying he was coming home and then not coming so many times?

 I don't know when I read it it kind of made sense with how he was talking about being a footballer in the present tense when he came last week

 
 I only rather recently in the past couple of years found out that when he was born he was sent to live with his grandmother until he was 7 and would fling himself at his mum when she came to visit and had to be peeled off her legs.  He refused to acknowledge his sister ( 2 years younger) who lived with his dad. I feel this is the root of his abandonment issues.


ok so for your questions.

The conversations when he was here last Thursday really didn't help me. They have left me with more questions, which ultimately leave me more upset.  I think he was looking to blame everything on me and that fits in with another reply you wrote BabyDucks about him searching for something to blame as he knows something isn't right and so his thoughts became more and more like rambles. So the more he talks the more it becomes like a distorted reality and it serves neither of us for me to engage in the conversation.  Maybe it helps him somehow to blame me?

I think at his core he will know that his drinking & debts are the root cause and he will be feeling bad for them and trying to mask them.

But what I think now is just hearsay.  It's the 22nd June today, the initial argument was on the 23rd May so it has now been 1 month without actual, purposeful interaction.

I feel like he was waiting for something from me, hence sending the message "this is what you wanted, I didn't do anything" on Saturday but I don't know what he wanted. Anytime I contacted him he pulled away.  I tried calling him a few times in the first two weeks and he didn't answer the call.  He would message afterwards saying why did I call and I would say to talk and his reply was always the same, I don't want to talk to you.

So I left him alone hoping that he would calm down. 



With regards to him at work, I don't think that he is coping well at all.  I was surprised also to hear how paranoid he was.  I haven't spoke to his friend again so I don't know what is happening this week.  His friend says the more he speaks to me, the more he realises that he has a big internal dilemma. He says his problems right now are work and money and his family and he is projecting them all on to me.  His hotel relies on Russian tourist and at the beginning of May, Russia stopped tourists coming here.  It has been announced that from tomorrow they can visit again, so maybe that will take some of the worry off him.


To be completely honest I don't know whether I should touch base with him or just let him be right now.  I'm trying to keep myself busy and do the things that make me feel if not better, at least towards ok (does that make sense). But I'm struggling. I feel lonely and sad that we're at this point again. I was honestly so surprised that he didn't deregulate last year with the pandemic.

Also I forgot to say. When he messaged last week that he had took his things. He added I’ll come to see you tomorrow. Which obv he hasn’t. I thought it was strange that he was leaving with his things, I was in the vicinity but he said he would come to see me tomorrow……

Yes I can certainly follow.   :)   thanks for the thoughtful reply blackorchid, I do appreciate that.

object consistency and object permanence do play a role in BPD.    for a person suffering from BPD, they are trying to deal with their harmfully intense chaotic emotions, their painfully intense confusing emotions by managing the distance between you.    mind you,  its not a good approach to managing the emotional upheaval but in a way it works for them.   they 'go away'  and the chaotic emotions lessen...



I think this is important insight blackorchid.    what its telling me is that if you follow him down the rabbit hole,  if you attempt to engage in his disordered reality it makes things worse.


people who are organized at the borderline level,  people who process life and events at the borderline level are emotionally underdeveloped and do not have "adult" emotional skills - .   they do not have the emotional maturity to say 'oh I shouldn't have done this/that, I made a mistake'.    if he can blame you for being the cause of all the problems in the relationship he protects himself.   please understand its not a decision he makes to blame you,  its more an automatic defense mechanism.   



compare this with what you know about him being sent to live with his grandmother.   is it possible that what he learned at a young age is that people who are supposed to love him,  or people that say that they love him are... unreliable... don't stay around...  leave him.    and that he is unconsciously reliving this pattern over and over again?    this time by creating it himself.

this is complicated stuff, but basically there is a school of psychological thought that people relive over and over again the patterns they learned as children.   its not a deliberate conscious decision, its more a deeply embedded pattern we fall back on automatically.   


this is interesting.   I am wondering if you are saying that you expect him to dysregulate and accept that this is part of your relationship?     I think in the time since you have been on this site regularly the boards have been reorganized, still this is the high level problem solving board, where the focus is on  seeking constructive relationship advice.  and finding solutions.

Of course you can post here.    its perfectly fine to post on any board here.  simply as a reminder I am going to paste in the definitions of the boards.



my hope is that this give you a sense of which would be a better support for you.


are you surprised by this?  do you expect him to behave logically?   rationally?   all the time?   some of the time?     being on the receiving end of the silent treatment is painful.  it is, after all considered a form of abuse.    still this push/pull cycle that you guys engage is a little bit more than silent treatment.   he pushes away and you get upset and try to pull him closer,.. which triggers him more and he pushes harder and you pull harder... at least that is how it appears to me.     would you say I got that right?

'ducks

Hi Babyducks


Yes it definitely makes it worse for me.



Yes, that could be and I think that the money plays into that too.. His father was bankrupt when he was 12 and his dad ran away to Belgium and left his mum and him to deal with it.  That's when the family began to rely on him for money and I think its part of the reason why he still thinks it's his responsibility to pay for it now. As his finances are bad now that may be a reason for a bigger trigger this time round when they asked.

I think that's why he rages at me that he doesn't need me as he has his family and they will help him.  Actually, as far as I can see, they have never helped him and are never interested in helping him. I think that that's the hurt small inner child in him and has always longed for that family dynamic.



I wouldn't see that I accept it, just that the fear of it is always lingering in my mind and that I'm mindful of it.  I don't want this to happen again and again.  I don't want this to be part of the relationship.  I was hoping for him to see a therapist but he wouldn't go. He kept saying for the past few months that he would go but then every time it was his day off the excuses would start. I do want to better the relationship.
 



yes I would say you got that right...I am very mindful not to initiate any contact because of that

hi,

when i said last week that he had taken everything, i meant from the wardrobe,  later when I was in the bathroom I saw that he had taken nothing from there... and he has taken hes winter clothing, medications etc.

He has just sent me a voice memo " sorry can you put all my things in 1 or 2 boxes because I don't want to come and take everything, maybe my friend can come and collect it. thank you"

Wouldn't it be easier/less complicated for him to get his own email..own codes..own (fill in the blank)?

No criticism here..just me scratching my head a bit.  

Best,

FF

I guess I haven't broached the subject with him.  He used my email months ago to set it up, as he had used his for the 3 month free trail so did mine to get it again  lol I mean if he wanted I'm sure there's a way to change the email... I dont use the platform is Turkish TV which I don't watch.

Does anyone have any sugestions on how to reply to the voice memo... The medications are not important btw, the doctors just prescribe so much here... creams for muscle aches, etc.

Hey blackorchird

As babyducks mentioned, lots of this is complicated and sometimes very nuanced stuff.

A fraught place for mixed and unwanted messages.  Which is a reason to clarify your goal when you do get to speak with him.

Our advice to you if your deepest desire is to reconnect romantically with him would be very different than if you were ambivalent about the future of your romantic relationship.  No rush to decide...yet I would encourage you to be deliberate about "what do I want".

In the meantime I would invite you to consider an area that could be a mixed message.

See the quotes below.  A few things to consider.



If you put his stuff in boxes...will he perceive that as helpful or as you "sending a signal" that you don't want him?  Will his state of mind likely influence this?

Does it seem odd to you that after a month of "no meaningful conversation" that he can still reach out to you and get codes, get things boxed up and other things that he appears to be capable of doing on his own...but perhaps "doesn't want to".

I'm not telling you one course of action is better than the other with the box request.  I DO encourage you to be thoughtful about it before deciding either way.

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

Hey FF,


I mean as stupid as I am for it, it would be to reconnect romantically with him.  I feel like after his last split in 2019 we were really in a better place and that's where I would like to get back to... which is probably why it hurts so much this time.  Actually the week that covid really hit here we  had found our wedding venue and were about to send out the invitations.  I finally thought the path ahead was smooth...



Yes, i can see that. It seems like that would be a signal of he can't come back.


yes, now that you put it like that it does seem odd and does lead me to being more confused. 
In 2019 he said too that his friend was coming but then he came. 

The more I read through the messages the past month, the more confused I become. In the days he stayed at the hotel in the 1st week he was still calling me all the pet names. But then hostile when I responded.  Not answering my calls and when I would ask at 11pm where are you, he got mad.

I know it's a pointless wish but I just really wish we could sit down and talk.  The week before the argument he was drinking a lot and he knew I was mad with him one morning when he was going to work, just for the amount of drink and smoking in the living room, he sent me a message, im going to stop this behaviour, let's start therapy together.  I just wish he would get back to that point.

Even the 2nd week of the fight he was talking about therapy again, so I did a quick google search and found a couple's therapy nearby... said I would be willing to try it in Turkish. Sent him the screenshot,  He said maybe then replied it's too expensive. 

and then he didnt reply about it again...

Just curious, his friend at work has just messaged me to see if I'm ok as I had my vaccine today...

He said he has told him a few times to come home, to talk to me, he told me last week that my BPD had mentioned to him about therapy last month and he has said to him go and do the therapy together...

im just wondering if this would also push him away? Is his friend doing this helpful or not? He told me on Friday that he would try to talk to him and I told him not too...

I know from his family that he refuses to talk about it with them, he'll just hang up the phone and gives no explanation as to why he left or where he is staying...

If anyone has any advice on how to respond to the voice memo

Late last night he put a sad emoji reaction to my Instagram story of our dog trembling and shaking during the thunderstorm (she’s petrified every time) and I sent a video back of her lying in bed next to me. Saying she’s calmed now she’s ok. He just replied. She’s relaxed now. That’s good.

But I still haven’t responded to the voice memo

Does the voice memo need a response?

Would you be ok with not responding?

Best,

FF

Well he’s asking if I can pack his remaining things and if a friend can come and get them…. I could ignore it but don’t see what that would serve

If it bugs you that he doesn't have "actual conversations" with you, then you could require actual conversations for him to enjoy benefits of the relationship.

Right now you apparently are serving as his code getter, box packer (and perhaps other things) without requiring anything of him.  So..he has no incentive to have conversations with you...because he gets what he wants without that.

From time to time in all relationships (dysfunction or otherwise)...stuff comes up and we just help out.  However..I get the vibe this is a pattern that has gone on for a while.

Am I close?  I might not be...so please guide me to a better understanding if I'm off.

Best,

FF

No I think you’re close

I'll pause and let others weigh in, because as others have said...this is complicated stuff and whatever pathway you pick for individual issues..needs to be consistent/linked to the best possible outcome for what you want for the future of the relationship.

Slowing down...deliberately considering your actions (or inactions) and making sure your choices are consistent with your values...is a wonderful exercise.

What have you learned about yourself in the last month (since things went weird with him)?

What have you learned about him in the last month?

Best,

FF

Thank you FF and would be ever so grateful to hear the thoughts of others.

I’ll try and answer that tomorrow. I’m getting a migraine and so can’t think straight right now but didn’t want you to think I was ignoring you.

Am I right in thinking that you mean I shouldn't engage when he sends messages like that, unless we are actually talking?


Which made me reflect on a point that babyducks made...



I feel like I am missing something, he is sending short messages to me, only about his belongings, I don't understand how this is about his feelings...

here is what I see happening from your descriptions.    lets see if this matches up with what you think is happening.

Your boyfriend 'flips out' or overloads or dysregulates when something overwhelms him and he immediately and abruptly ceases contact with you.   he doesn't just do this with you but does it with his family also.   he runs away and hides.  but he keeps up a string of low stream messages about needing to stay away.   and needing to have zero contact with the people who 'hurt him'.    every time the idea of contact with you comes up he 'flips' further out and pushes you harder away.

so what's going on under all that... what emotion (or what idea if that feels more comfortable for you) is driving all this - I must social distance from you I can't see you or talk to you ?  I am sooOoo afraid of seeing you I must send another grown man to get my things?

he's told you a lot lately that you are the cause of all his problems?   yet he is willing to engage in text or voice mails to get his stuff... let me ask... anything among these remaining possession that is so very important?    anything that he couldn't replace?     anything with huge sentimental value?

we talked a little bit upstream about how he manages emotions.    being in close personal relationships overwhelms him... so he manages his emotions by how much contact he has with you.   and with his family.   what I see happening, and happening over and over again is he 'flips out'   and then goes away until he regains his equilibrium.   he uses the isolation to manage his emotional state.    he uses the amount of contact he has with you and his family to cope with what is going on within him.   he pretty much told you that when he said:


I am good like this... I am good alone without the stress of trying to maintain emotional relationships.   Please don't force me to be in contact.    I can't handle it.   

Here are my suggestions:

• if you haven't replied to the last box up my things message, I would leave it alone for now.   if he tries again,  and I suspect he will,...  I would have a SET message ready
• so sorry I can't remember, if you don't have a therapist already, I would suggest you find professional help for yourself.   immediately.    today.   concentrate on looking passed all the surface stuff to identify what's really going on.

• I would not attempt to 'force' him to do anything but focus on providing healthy and calming messages that give him opportunities to make better choices
• journal - if you don't already journal, ... start.   this is the place to dump all your stress and negative thoughts, to vent your frustrations

• find a copy of Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist.   Read it.   https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=203887.0 (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=203887.0)
• switch to looking at the long term.   do not be hypervigilant to every text or voice mail.  play the long game.    this is a process.   there will be set backs along the way.    think long term and creating a more healthy relationship

I'll stop here waiting for you feed back.   no hurry.   take time to digest all of this.

'ducks

let's back up a step and look at this message he sent:


what's the important part of this message?   the netflix code thing?   or the second part?   I am going to say the second part:

"this is what you wanted" -  you wanted me to leave,  no one wants me to stay, no one has ever really wanted me to stay.  pwBPD don't typically feel loved or worthy of love.   no matter how much you try.

"I have done nothing"   - its not my fault.    it can't be my fault.    whatever is going on with the debts and the drinking and the gambling well... I have done nothing wrong.   pwBPD feel like if they make a mistake they are a mistake... and have no value.   they can not handle shame, blame and responsibility.

"please don't force me" - I can't be in relationship with you.   I don't know how to do it.    I can't argue with you again.    I am emotionally chaotic and only quiet makes me feel better.

"I'm good like this" -  I am good on my own.    not responsible to anyone,   not in real contact with anyone.     I am better by myself.

I am not saying I read all his messages correctly but I am sure that this wasn't about some netflix code.   he used it as a pretext to convey another message.   and my guess is he is doing the same with the stuff he left in the bathroom.   

we are fact driven people... its easier to deal with the facts... what is the netflix code,... who is the owner of the account.   I am not saying that isn't important I am saying that's not the whole message here.

'ducks

Hi Babyducks,

thank you. This makes perfect sense and I guess I couldn't get beyond my feelings' to see through the mist of his messages to understand that.


No there's nothing here.  I'm presuming after not staying at home for so long before he came to collect his things that he bought a new toothbrush and other essential toiletries.  We're entering summer, winter clothes are not needed for quite a few months now. There's nothing sentimental either. Unfortunately (for me more so) when he did this in 2019 he took our box of sentimental things, long distance cards and letters from our early days, photos, all little things that you put into that type of box and binned it. I was heartbroken. Things like that really do mean a lot to me...


again that makes sense. So I need to read between the lines, or rather read the unwritten parts of the messages...
  

Could you, and other members too, help me on what SET message to have ready for when he does respond?

I'm not forcing him to do anything. I haven't contacted him as it just aggravates him. A letter has come for him today so I may message him to let him know...

I am trying to find a therapist, but am struggling to find one. There's no English speaking ones that I can find here so I'm going to look online...
I do journal but the past couple of weeks I have felt so exhausted and haven't been able to find the time/energy to do so. I will start journalling and meditating again. My days just feel so long. By the time work finished and I'm home and walk our dog, most times it 9pm and I haven't even ate dinner. Now with the summer holidays started and my work schedule changing to purely day time lessons I should be able to rectify this and find balance again.

I'll get the book on Kindle I searched for it. Will be faster than the actual copy being posted. Thank you


[/list]

This makes so much sense and explains why out of everything that was said in the argument that all he "remembers" from it was the f$%K off that I said.  So because he always feels unworthy/unloved/unwanted he is always waiting for that to come..?

Conversely, because of the past I'm always waiting for him to up sticks and leave again.  My pain of that is what caused me to erupt and said it in the argument in reaction to him saying that he was going to leave.

I would say from the things he was saying when he was in the house last week that that makes sense, he made a mistake and so is a mistake.  Then he projects it quickly on to me, to make it easier for him to handle?

Reading this makes me feel so sad for him. For how much turmoil he has within him and for how much I just long to help him.  For him not to feel like this anymore.


Thank you for this valuable insight

SET.   Support Empathy Truth.   Usually the truth part is the easiest to come up with and we frequently skip the Support and the Empathy and dive right into the truth.     :(

Support :   You've said its important to stay away -   (notice the sentence starts with You... not I... the 'You" changes the focus.. onto him and his message)
 
Empathy:   I understand that is what you want right now (you don't have to agree with him,  you do have to acknowledge his message)   

Truth:   Still, a letter has come for you today that you should see. ( Use the word Still, not the word But...  'But' negates the things you just said prior and you don't want to do that.  again notice the lack of I statements right now... and the amount of you statements?

Support:   I want to get this letter to you in the best possible way.   (you are still supporting his current position) that contact is impossible.

Empathy:   I know this is hard on both of us.

Truth:  Here is what I can do... I can put the letter in XYZ for you to pick up... or I can give the letter ABC to give to you.    which would you rather?

obviously you would have to tweak the language here to make it something you would feel comfortable actually saying... use your words.   I just provided an example.    when you give him choices in the last truth statement,  only pick two.   do not say 'how do you want to get it?' because right now his executive function is compromised and he can't figure out how he wants to get it.    and when you pick two choices make sure they are reasonable for you... not something you have to run across town or jump through hoops to make happen.

pretty much yes.     pwBPD never feel secure in being loved and worthy of love.   they often search their environment for 'clues'  that prove that they aren't being loved enough or the right way.


of course... and this is part of the dynamic that needs to be broken.  he is going to manage his emotions by doing the push/pull thing.   to have a chance with him you are going to need to learn to not take it personally.


 

yes.    that's how he learned to handle this emotion as a child and he has never adopted a different approach.


if only it was that simple.    for him to 'get better' he will require years of therapy and a willingness to look at hard and painful memories.    to some degree he is always going to feel like this... however he can respond to it better.    BPD can't really be cured... it can be managed.

Wonderful discussion on options.  How much of this feels like a "foreign language" to you?

For me..that was the helpful metaphor.

It will likely take trial and error to figure out how "ignoring" or "delaying" messages goes.

On the one hand you don't want to be on his beck and call and "have to" respond to text within a short time or else he goes off the rails.  On the other hand you need to understand "abandonment" is often a central trigger for BPD.

This is a conundrum you will have to learn to manage.

Especially at this early stage of learning a new "language"  TIME IS YOUR FRIEND because you need time to decipher "what he is really saying" (see examples above).

Even then..it can be reading tea leaves

Plus...be deliberate about leaving the door open for what you want/need.

please don't try to use these exact words...they are for you to get the gist of this idea.

him:  blah blah blah pack up my stuff..a friend will come get it...blah blah

you:  Sounds important, I imagine you are be busy.. I've got time to discuss over coffee at (insert convenient place)...does noon or 1 work better for you?

Maybe that kinda also fits the SET format.  It shows him he is not ignored but also doesn't solve his issue...the door is left open for what you want (real conversation).

The little twist at the end will also take trial and error.  Some pwBPD work better with dichotomous stuff (would you like a or b) or you may find "what time works best for you?" is a better approach.

There is another little "rule" tucked back in here.  Hand the work back to them  Especially if it's their work.

You don't want "validate" for them that they can control others to "do their work" for them, especially while they are skipping out on normal relationship stuff like "having conversations".

We've thrown a lot at you?  How are you feeling?  Too much too soon or hungry for more?

Best,

FF

Hopefully just a bit more to tie all these threads together.

I do agree he is most likely saying "I'm so afraid (or perhaps ASHAMED) to see you in person..so I will send another guy."

So...there is an obvious line of thinking where seeing you in person for coffee would see to be the opposite thing from what he wants.  And..perhaps that is true.

Yet...perhaps he doesn't want to see you in person IN YOUR HOME.  Home my scream "intimacy"..whereas "just coffee" might "say" casual to him and be acceptable.

No way to know what will work...trial and error and thoughtful reflection on the results of what you try.

Let the "tension" or "incentives" work for the favor of the relationship and let him solve these internal battles himself..even if he does it badly.  

You staying on an even keel will (over time) validate for him that you are a safe place and also a place where he can't "walk all over you".  Both can be true.

Best,

FF

Yes, I understand that.  He was finally at a place where he was talking about going to therapy.  He could just never seem to get the final push to actually make the appointment/ attend the appointment. The one he actually made was 3 weeks away and by then he had convinced himself that he didn't need it and didn't attend.  This was through April/May


Ok this makes sense. Thank you babyducks, especially the me making 2 choices.  Maybe i could offer to open it and send a photo (like he asked a couple of weeks ago) and to either post it/wait for him to arrange it being collected


Thanks FF that also makes sense. I don't think the meeting for coffee will work as an option. He is staying at the hotel accommodation which is in the tourist town about 1/2 an hour away but there's very limited public transport options between here and there.  Without a car it's almost impossible and very time consuming. Plus, he might take that as forcing him rn?  But I like the rule tucked in of handing their work back to them, that makes sense too.


It doesn't feel like "foreign language" more like the language I haven't practised in a while and I'm a bit fuzzy at right now. Like how I would be if I spoke Spanish right now after a long break of practising it.

I'm feeling ok thank you.  Having things to think about and contemplate and work on is good, a good proactive way of keeping busy.

I put an insta story of our dog swimming this morning he has replied to the story with "miss her"

I see what you mean now about little pings he does



 Makes sense about the coffee and meeting outside of home, in the past he has suggested that after a few weeks of him living elsewhere.  Even 2 weeks ago he suggested meeting in the park with our dog and some friends who were visiting, at the last moment he cancelled.  With this perspective I can see that he cancelled because he was afraid of what would happen and how he would feel. Actually, he has always suggested it being with his friend(s) initially, which has always annoyed me, but maybe that is his safety buffer net. They don't like their friends to see them dysregulated right so this has shed some light on that for me, thank you

OK he has just messaged me asking if I have packed his things, I'm going to use the SET templates from earlier but change the truth to his things? something like

You've said that you don't want to come here.  I understand that that's what you want right now. I haven't packed your things yet as I haven't been feeling well (unsure on this part).

 or just I want to get your things to you in the best possible way. I know this is hard on us both. I can pack the things for your friend to collect or if you rather you can come when I'm out and then you can take what you need. I haven't packed them yet as I haven't been well this week

I'm going to ponder this whilst I walk the dog... Thank you FF for reminding me that time is on my side. Usually I would panic and message a short response out of fear for making him angry by not responding

Once you create a  set or sentence...be deliberate about walking away from it.  Come back and hour later and cut out 50% of the words...look for JADE or anyplace you are "explaining".

I don't think you should said yes or no to his question...leave a door open for him to find out by coffee or some similar thing.

So..what would a message like that look like.

Oh yeah...good job with the SETs.  I would recommend trimming down words...but solid effort.

How did if "feel" trying to write that stuff out?

Best,

FF

Hi FF

I left it mostly as it was.  Finishing with the 2 options either his friend to come or him to come at a convenient time. It was:

You've said that you don't want to come here.  I understand that that's what you want right now. I haven't packed your things yet as I haven't been feeling well the past few days and haven't been able to work.
 I want to get your things to you in the best possible way. I know this is hard on us both. I can pack the things for your friend to collect or if you rather you can come when I'm out and then you can take what you need.


He responded almost immediately. I put hi how are you and then the SET message

He responded fine thanks you...(which is silly as in the SET i had stated I hadn't packed boxes as hadn't been well and had had to cancel lessons today)

I said I'm ok but I dont feel well. He asked why. I just told him time of the month, you know how ill I get. He said ok night. I just responded good night

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