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So I’ve been doing well with not getting into stupid arguments with my wife, and doing ok with small victories such as wearing something she told me never to wear. I am going with her choice to sell our house at a reduced price to secure our dream home. I’m still not sure which is the right decision with this but the choice may be taken out of our hands anyway.
My next goal is for the children to see my parents. My wife and my mother have a difficult relationship. Mum has always bent over backwards trying to please wife, but fails none the less. She has given us lots of money over the years. My wife feels that mum is not interested in her and does not talk to her. They talk on WhatsApp chat and my wife often complains that mum saw a message and didn’t reply, or was very short in her reply.
Mum cares for dad who has Parkinson’s disease. It is quite severe now and he is wheelchair bound. They have a special car to transport him. And in the summer they came round. We got some wonderful pictures of them with the baby, but the older one was crying by the time I took a picture, because she was tired and doesn’t know them. My wife felt mum just grabbed the baby and didn’t even acknowledge my wife. Wife said she didn’t want me to say anything, but then later said I should have made the choice myself. But it was just wonderful to see my parents so happy, do you really think I’d want to upset them?  My dad needed to go to the toilet (well he thought he did but mum said when they got home he didn’t). He has a catheter for urine but still uses the toilet for the other. But he needs a disabled toilet and hoist to get on the toilet so they had to leave early. Mum drove 1.5 hours here and then back again. She doesn’t like driving and is in her late 70’s.
My wife refuses for us or me to take the children up there (one is 2 years and one is 6 months). Her reasons are that the older one gets travel sick (she has meds now but we’ve never tried it). And that it would mess with both their sleep routines. (She sleeps with them both so it would be her having to deal with it because they would sleep in the car.) My parents have only met the older one a few times and baby once. I am heart broken over this. If we move house we will be even further away, but it is such a drama getting to them as it is that I don’t think it will make any difference. My wife just keeps saying, “they should come here, they did and it was fine”. Mum had suggested that either dad’s carer comes or his sister. Wife says no to carer as she doesn’t know her. No to sister as she doesn’t like her. Wife has offered for her parents to go up and help my mum bring dad here. But mum doesn’t want to do that. Wife’s dad is very angry with her for withholding the children from my parents. He has been saying we should stop off there on the 5.5 hour journey if we move. Whilst it is on the way, I think it would be hard as we have a crazy dog (also car sick, also has meds we haven’t tried…) And I don’t want it to feel like, this is the last time you’ll ever see us and we’re only stopping 20 mins.. So I don’t want to do move day.
The other day wife said, “I’m just thinking out loud, if we did go up it would be just for the morning and come home before lunch…” I trod carefully and said very little, just that my parents would love that. I’ve said before, sometimes she’ll make a choice herself if there’s no pressure, but she says she feels lots of pressure from my mum, her dad, me… My mum has always kept some of our toys and books for children visiting over the years and would love to show the children  and for them to see the house and garden. I don’t know where to take it from here. I even suggested just I take the older child but she doesn’t want that either. We have a car each (both on finance in my name) but as main carer she has both car seats isofixed in her car, they can be moved but it’s a hassle. I would have to leave her the baby car seat if I was taking the older one. I couldn’t take the baby on my own as she is breastfed, but it’s the older one I really want them to meet properly. By the way these babies are ivf conceived and biologically hers but legally mine too.

Your wife's response to your mother is not unusual. My BPD mother dislikes my father's relatives. One reason is that- they were "on" to her. They didn't buy into her persona. They knew there were issues. One reason for being critical of them is her fear they may have talked about her, especially to my father. Maybe he'd leave her? In my family we were not allowed to talk or acknowledge any of her behaviors. It was like the Emperor has no clothes.

My mother sees people as "on her side" or "not her side". My father needed to be on her side which meant keeping an emotional distance from anyone she considered "not her side". Your wife also expects that you be "on her side". I don't think her feelings were caused by your parents in any way. I think she's afraid they may comment on her behavior to you.

Hello Broken Person

I am glad to see you looking at the relationship with your parents and how they are being treated.


It seems that recently you have noticed that the more you appease your wife the more she wants to be appeased.    but when you stand up for your own autonomy and individualism she responds in a neutral way.   I am going to suggest that this will apply to your Mother too.    The more you walk on eggshells the more your pwBPD believes you should walk on eggshells.    It validates their concept of being the victim.



from what you write it seems that travel is no longer possible for your parents, that they are beyond being able to move around comfortably and safely.    I would say that this just isn't an option any more.     'they should come here, they did and it was fine' isn't on the table.    Your father needs to be in an environment where he can take care of his special needs.

I am wondering what would happen if you started regularly visiting yourself.    I would suspect that you would need to prepare your wife for the idea that you will be traveling to see your parents.   perhaps once she gets used to that idea it would be easier for her tolerate one or both of the children going.   I wouldn't suggest you attempt to make this all about the family going.   at least not yet.   start with regular trips yourself.    pick a reasonable time frame and a reasonable day.   work on communicating your intentions.    

what do you think?

is your wife reliable being left on her own with both babies? I think you work from home- I don't know if she can manage with you being away?

Travelling with two small children can be a challenge even in the best of circumstances- but this isn't likely the issue with your wife. My guess is she sees your parents as some sort of threat to her position.

Ducks is right in that appeasing behavior leads to more of the behavior and more appeasing.

Your wife, IMHO, is being inconsiderate of your parents but with everyone appeasing her,  she really has no incentive to be kind to them.

Your parents are also in a tough position as they love you and the children and probably fear not appeasing her.

You can't control her or force her to see your parents. I think Ducks is correct- you won't get permission for her to go, and she may not be able to manage both children. If she's able to manage the infant on her own, it may work for you to visit with the older child. However, you do this, it needs to be a non negotiable.

Dear BP, totally with Notwendy and Babyducks on this one. Not letting crazy run your life is essential to staying with a pwBPD. Set your boundaries in a way you can live with. You can't need her permission.
Our relationship changed for the better the day I realized I had better make life comfortable for me because the BPD was what it was. 3-4 years of therapy at least and that is if they are very willing and work very hard. In the meantime I have to live my life around it. Not having boundaries will drive me crazy and that is no help to her. Steady consistency is what works.
It takes time, start slowly indeed, and gradually. We are all learning.  Figure out what you need to be comfortable with yourself and just do it.
 :hug:

Thanks everyone,
Not Wendy, my wife is fine looking after the children on her own, she does this when I’m working out and at home. However she does try to make me feel guilty because she can’t “do anything with them” on her own, she feels she can’t take them out, with a breast fed baby and demanding toddler I do understand her feelings on this. Sometimes she meets friends but her friends are notoriously unreliable and generally unstable.
There are mind games and power play going on here. It worked eventually, when I announced the non negotiable boundary that I would be taking and sending baby photos to mum. But I handled it very poorly because it was just before I discovered this forum! Amazingly it seems my wife is taking and sending more photos to our mums  herself recently. I want to handle this as well as possible. If we are moving soon then i will only have a few weeks to arrange and execute the plan. We should know soon whether the new buyer is messing us around. Of course I fully have the intention of still seeing my parents when we are further away, but I want to put something into action before we leave, to make it feel more achievable.
Ducks, I had already decided to do a few visits to parents on my own before we go. This is why I suspect there are some mind games going on. I think wife suspected that I would do this, following my recent visit. So she throws a curve ball: “maybe I might consider us all going, if it was just for the morning…” I feel like this is supposed to stop me going on my own. She’d be like, “fine, go on your own without us  then”, which would mean it’s even less likely she or the kids would ever come. So if I mention it, I’m “putting on pressure” and get even more resistance. If I don’t mention it, it just won’t happen, just like when I wanted to see the John Lennon tribute in Central Park. I mentioned it a few times, she was like, “would you stop banging on about that?” I stopped mentioning it. And it didn’t happen.
There is no way she would allow me to take the older child on my own. I certainly couldn’t just insist on it, she would be snatching the child out of the car and upsetting her.
I know the advice is often just to do things rather than discuss. But I feel she needs to somehow be on board with the plan. And I still feel like saying then I won’t sign the house sale documents. But I know that is stupid and a separate and irrelevant issue.
So also, is it ever a good idea to discuss with others, such as my parents, how to handle my wife? I am inclined to not want to bother my mum with this nonsense. I think a lot of the time my wife’s paranoia goes over her head and I like it that way, mum has a hard enough time as it is. Like my wife was saying in the summer we’d use some special napkins at our party, and mum said, “you’ll have to remember not to pack them” as we had already started packing ready to move. My wife took this to be a snide remark about not wanting us to move, and proof that my mum has a nasty streak which I have never seen. Of course I disagree but as we all know it’s the kind of argument not worth having.
What is the best way to discuss this with my wife, without putting on pressure? (any mention of it is perceived as pressure, like my mum texts her things like, “don’t forget you’re always welcome here…” which my wife finds pushy. As I can’t just kidnap the child behind her back, even for a few hours. Whilst this may seem the easiest option it certainly wouldn’t be good for our relationship and may destroy us.

How aware are your parents about your wife's issues? There are pros and cons to discussing your wife with them. One main concern is triangulation. They will take your side because you are their daughter. If your wife hears of this, or perceives this, it will be troublesome.

The other part is their own relationship dynamics. It appears your mother is a caregiver type- that's a wonderful quality for a mother, but one can take it too far if there are poor boundaries. The dynamic of tolerating poor behavior - like they did with you, and it may also be with your wife, might make it hard for them to keep boundaries on your marriage- they may try to help too much.

On the other hand, understanding BPD and the relationship dynamics might help them to not take your wife's behavior personally and not react to it with hurt.

By now, it's possible they already suspect something odd might be going on? Or not?

I would think about this one carefully.

Keep in mind that as you speak to your wife about anything- you can not control what she thinks or says. I have found that my BPD mother can react to the slightest suggestion or question as if she's being pressured, but that also serves her to avoid doing things or dealing with things.

One exercise I learned in co-dependency work was to avoid the word "you". Only use "I". It feels awkward to do this but it makes you think about what you are saying. It is also less triggering although that's not the main point.

Look at these two statements:
"I feel sad for my parents that they don't get to see the grandchildren and would like to make plans to visit. I can go on my own with the older child, or we can go together. Which would you like to do?"

"You never want to visit my parents, that's not fair to them"

One is less confrontational.

You say your wife wants to do outings with the kids. Are there any interesting things for kids to do near your parents or on the way? A park or zoo, or other activities? One idea would be to combine the trip with something fun like trying out a new playground.

Not Wendy, my parents know of my wife’s bpd diagnosis before we met, but I don’t think they really know what it means. Online she presents herself as having recovered from the self harm and eating disorders, and believes she doesn’t have bpd anymore. I have protected them from knowing many truths of our relationship, namely how little my wife used to work (before the kids), how much she spends, how controlling she is, and the occasional physical violence. I am inclined to stop trying to tell mum what to do or say, because she always seems to get it wrong, either she fails or forgets to do exactly what I said, or she does but it’s still wrong. I think maybe it benefits my wife more to be treated as a “normal” person, despite her having all these issues with mum.
I like your presentation of the “I” statements, and the giving of choices, which is something I use a lot in my teaching. This conversation about visiting my parents has happened on numerous occasions and I often use the line, “I just feel so sad that they don’t get to see the children”,  so if you are able, I would like further advice on her responses: “they can come here, they did it before and it was fine…” “I’m the one who has to deal with them being up all night…” “it’s not fair on child 1 who gets very sick” (although we do have meds we haven’t tried yet, because we don’t go very far). It’s a nice idea to combine it with another outing, but I think difficult at the moment as they older one has an after lunch nap so everything has to either be before or after that. Also it is getting cold in England for many outdoor activities.
By the way, another problem is that my wife is jealous of how much my mum loves the children and she feels, “they want to see them, not me”. Which, to be honest, is pretty correct. I think if wife did pick up any bad vibes from mum when they came in the summer, it could be because she is totally fed up with having to jump through hoops and was also so excited to see the grandchildren that she didn’t pay much attention to my wife. Unfortunately.
Another goal of mine is to start doing more video calls. I think this is something I just have to announce, but my wife rarely leaves me with the children (only for slimming world) and I don’t want to jump on the opportunity the moment she leaves the house. I don’t know when or how is the best time but I’m prepared to announce it without asking permission, which is something I generally have been doing with many things more recently.

Feelings may feel like facts, but we should not validate the invalid ( we can validate the feeling).

PwBPD tend to project their feelings on to other things or consider other "reasons" for the feeling. With how infrequent your children see your parents, it's unlikely they would prefer your parents to your wife. However, it's normal for children to be excited to see their grandparents if they have a good relationship with them. It's not a competition.

Not seeing your parents because your wife says she thinks they prefer them is validating the invalid. You are not going to change your wife's feelings by discussing them or appeasing them.

You also won't get your wife's sympathy for your parents. In the Karpman triangle, she needs to be the victim, the center of your concern. However, the fact is, your father is ill and may not be able to travel well. Although your older child has a medical condition, does this mean not seeing her grandparents? Somehow it seems a toddler can manage car trips better. They sleep in the car seats, and porta cribs. An adult can't do this. One can also organize time in the car with nap time and bedtime as kids can sleep just fine in a car seat on a trip.

First think of how to say this. Don't JADE, just repeat.

"I'd like to bring the kids to visit my parents"

Then the reason. "they like your mother better than me"

Then validate the feeling " I understand that you feel that way but I would like to bring the kids to visit my parents"

Then just repeat - don't JADE.

As to the youngest being breast fed. Eventually, infants begin adding solid food. They may still breast feed but eventually they begin to add more foods and nurse less. They also begin drinking from a cup. It is possible for them to be away from their mother at times and let the mother use a breast pump for the missed feeding. Mothers who work outside the home do this. As long as the baby is frequently nursing, this won't change their nursing situation. However, eventually they will wean no matter what.

Parents with PD's tend to see children as extensions of themselves. The nursing bond is a special time for all parents. But our purpose isn't to have them dependent on us for everything- it's to support their growth. They will learn to feed themselves, dress themselves. They will go to school. Each milestone is a time of sadness and celebration of the next step. Perhaps these are not easy for your wife to manage which is why she wants another baby when there are signs that the infant stage is changing. It's normal to be sad as the baby is more independent, but also happy to see the growth and embrace the new stage. You can validate your wife's feelings while not trying to fix them.

Soon enough, the little one will manage a trip to see your parents without depending on nursing for nutrition during that time.

You've gotten some really good responses here. I admire your strength in seeing your wife's behaviors and starting to set healthier boundaries with her. It could be very helpful to keep documentation of your wife's behaviors somewhere so if there are ever legal issues in the future, you have proof of what kind of challenges you have had with her and be more able to do what is best for you and your children. You can document what she is doing by writing carefully detailed descriptions of behaviors and events, while keeping everything you write in chronological order without making any changes, and this will all be considered genuine legal documentation for court of any kind if you ever need it.

Not Wendy, I wish I could tell you that I was successful, but in we had a talk and in the end my wife said, “I’m open to the idea” of visiting my parents all together, which I think is progress, and said that she wants to know whether we’re moving away, to decide whether we go up sooner or nearer Christmas. I know that she is still in charge and I’m disappointed I couldn’t do more. But I managed to discuss it without confrontation, which is also progress for me. I remember someone here saying a while ago, “she’s not capable of feeling sad for your parents” or something like that. And yet I’ve still always tried this angle. It’s hard to get why she just doesn’t seem to care, even though they are elderly. It has made me realise how much I need to work on self-compassion because I realise how angry I am with myself. I want to become stronger to set a good example and role model for my children. And trying to talk more kindly to myself and remember I’m doing this for my children and my parents and myself. I also hope my wife will feel more at peace, as much as possible, once I am more strong and stable. I’m continuing to set small goals, like I’m planning tomorrow to either have child wear the dress again, or video call my parents. I don’t know if either will happen. I have to judge moment by moment whether it’s a good idea. Although I’m making progress I don’t want to set things back by making too many changes. Thanks again for all your advice and support.
Zachira, thank you I don’t feel very strong at all but I’m hoping to feel stronger the more I push through all the restrictions that have been placed upon me only partially with my consent. Secret documentation could be a good idea, do you have any suggestions for where I could hide it? I have no privacy in the physical or online world. Btw the only reason I’m able to be a regular on here is because my wife sleeps with the children in our bed and I’m in the spare room with the dog.

She has just texted me this at 4.20am:
“This is my prime example why I’m saying no to parents! I’m absolutely exhausted and she’s STILL AWAKE and I am the one having to deal with it”
So she’s now going back on what she pretty much agreed. She is talking about the older child. I go in at 2.30am every night to give the younger one some meds. I didn’t respond anything about parents visits. I just said, “I can take her downstairs if you like”, and she’s like, “I’ll still have to deal with her when she comes up.” And I said “unless she goes in her cot” (where she has day time naps) and she said, “that’s stupid!”

One reason to not rock the boat too much is that you are concerned that if you push it so far it might take a major toll on the relationship. What about your wife? One thing I have noticed is that they do see where something has pushed too far, and then at that point, behave nicely- the push/pull. But it's important to not be manipulative, or threats,  and use fear of losing the relationship to get this good behavior.

However, asserting oneself does come with the fear of possibly losing the relationship. There's a sort of balance between two people. I think this fear is what drives one to give in too much. The other possibility is that if the partner is invested in the relationship, they will learn to accept a new balance, in time. There can be an adjustment- an extinction burst- but eventually acceptance of new boundaries.

A true boundary needs to be non negotiable. This means, we uphold it no matter what the other person does. There may likely be pushback on their part. They also have choices too. If visiting your parents requires cooperation on her part, it might not be something you have control over.

One boundary you can control is a video session. I think it's easier to schedule this. For instance " I will video call with the kids every other Sunday at noon before nap" or something that fits the schedule. Then you do it no matter what. She may react poorly at first so you will back down, but you need to stay with it if it is to be a true boundary. So be sure to choose something you can stick with- once a month, twice a month- you decide what you can do.

Thanks not Wendy,
I am sitting in the car trying not to cry, just finished my 3 hour cleaning job. My wife is still in a terrible mood today and just texted me a thumbs down in response to my nice message where I said, I love you. I pushed it a little too far I think when I put my Facebook profile picture of me and our child, without her in it. The next few days I am busy and Sunday is my only day off, so Monday - Wednesday morning will be best for the video call. I shall decide at the time depending on our plans, and at the time let my wife know I intend to make it every other week but at least once a month if we’re busy or mum doesn’t answer. What do you think of that? I don’t feel like going home, but I will go and give my children a big cuddle. The older one was crying when I left (very tired) but she managed to stop to say, “see you later” in her usual cheery voice. She is learning resilience and I really want to help with that. Deep breaths, don’t cry.

Hello BP -

let's take a couple of deep breaths here and slow any lingering emotional reactions.     

as you have said several times;  you are aware that this would be a difficult and problematic issue to work on.    and here we are.    having just what you anticipated; a reaction to any loss of control for your wife.


You knew this would happen.     and you can deal with this.    the idea is to be calmly and gently but firmly consistent.   and to look deeply and honestly at what else is going on here.   let's look at sleep hygiene and sleep patterns.    the children sleep with her, you sleep in the spare room with the dog.   how do you see the power dynamic in this?    who has all the power?   who has all the control?     why is the control important?   in the family hierarchy, where does this put you?    why are you in a different part of the house away from your family?   let's look beyond any practical reasons, and whether they are legitimate or pretend.    let's look deeper, at what emotional reasons are behind this, who they benefit and why.   

here are my two cents.   for what they are worth.     first - I am not wildly enthusiastic about the text.     she's upstairs.   you are downstairs.    She could have gotten up, come downstairs, given you either child, asked for you to come upstairs, expressed concern about Child1 not sleeping.    but somehow none of that happened.     this isn't about problem solving.    this isn't about why is Child1 not sleep.    what is this all about?


looking back at this after a couple of days and with some distance what do you see happening here?    if you had to write this message all over again in different words - what would it say?    if you focus on just the emotions, what do you see?

do you maybe see "I'm unhappy and upset.   I'm lashing out." 
do you maybe see "I don't trust anyone else to parent my children, I must do it only by myself."
is it a surprise that she would conflate the sleep with your parents?   the two don't really relate you know.     New parents are often exhausted.    Young babies and children don't always have regulated sleep patterns.     The persons who is supposed to be there to support and help - YOU - has been relegated to the spare room.     When you offer a solution, she rejects it.   

What I see happening behind all the surface stuff is when she feels her control over the children, over her environment, over you slipping a little she doubles down.    lashes out and tightens the grip she has on all things.

NotWendy is spot on. 

changing tracks, a little, what are you doing for yourself - to take care of yourself and be kind to yourself today?

'ducks

You can document your wife's behaviors on your computer, as long as you have the right kind of security so she cannot read your files. You can ask other members for suggestions on how to best do this, as there are many people on this site who are more savvy about computer security than I am. 
 

Thank you zachira, I don’t have a computer, I wonder if there’s anything else I could do?
Ducks, you are absolutely right. In fact I knew (believed) even before we had kids, that she would never let me take them anywhere without her. I’m not sure what to do about it though. I’ll go with not Wendy’s idea about regular video calls. I feel stronger to insist on it having agreed to sell our house and now with her refusing the visit to my folks. She was just waiting for an excuse to change her mind.. I’m finding it hard to look after myself. I have been playing the piano, only with headphones when they were all still asleep, but also playing in between lessons, I don’t know if wife knows about it, not that it matters but I want her to know lol like I’m looking forward to telling her one day when she’s asks what I’ve been up to. If she challenges it I’m going to say, “I enjoy playing the piano, so I’ve decided to start doing it again”. Sounds ok? I’m struggling with guilt. So I finally stopped fixating on the fact that I broke my ex’s heart, when it clicked that I was also some kind of caretaker for him, and that he didn’t actually treat me that well. So I now have room for a new kind of guilt. And my mum makes me feel worse. This is the guilt of my parents never seeing the children. I was very close to my mum’s mum (now passed) and my mum often mentions how sad granny would be to know all that’s going on with them not seeing the grandchildren.

Can you take regular videos of your wife with the children and other family members?

I’m not sure what you mean, for what purpose would I do this?

You’re not going to like what I’m going to say. I’ve spent 47 years in a relationship like yours. My children are grown (as yours will be) and they resent me for staying in the marriage. I don’t see my grandchildren any more and it’s absolutely killing me. Maybe things would be different if I had left years ago

I think this could play out different ways when the children are grown. But one day- they will ( hopefully because you want them to be emotionally mature and self sufficient adults) outgrow your wife emotionally and have their own opinions about this.

In my situation, I didn't resent my father for staying with my BPD mother but I did wonder why he tolerated her behavior ( which I understand better now but know it's a dysfunctional dynamic). However, there was friction between her and me as I became more mature over time. I was enlisted as an emotional caretaker from an early age- that is the only normal I knew, but it wasn't normal. The Karpman triangle is a good model for how we interacted in the family. One gets to either be a rescuer or an enabler. A persecutor is essential for the rescuer-enabler and victim bond.

I have had difficulty understanding my father's choices. His relationship with my mother was paramount to him, regardless of how much distress or unhappiness he or anyone else might have had to endure for it. Not his parents, not his siblings, not even his children were as relevant as I now realize. He chose to give up a lot for this relationship.

So for Broken Person- yes the choice to appease over your parent's feelings is one of these- however, what is different now is that you are attempting to not accept this and still keep the bonds with your parents. As your children get older, they may also have conflicts with your wife and the choice can become her contentment over your relationship with them.

I am so sorry Gypsy that this evolved in your family. I don't know what issues your children are concerned about, however, my advice as always is to have an open and honest discussion with them, make amends for anything on your part such as if you ignored or enabled any abuse. Unless they have some kind of mental health issue or are disordered, or just plain mean, there has to be a lot of emotional pain on their part to have made this choice. For any repair to happen, this has to be addressed. Even if it doesn't result in seeing the grandchildren, you will have done your part.

I will say that my father was in love with my mother and chose her. Her children on the other hand, didn't feel the same way as he did. We try to be decent people, she is our mother after all, but we don't have the same wish to appease, emotionally caretake her in the way he did. One can not expect children to feel the same or make the same choice a partner does.

Gypsy Jedi I am so sorry to hear of your heart breaking situation. Did you know at the time that your children wished for you to leave the marriage? I’m sure not Wendy is right, that they must be in much pain to make the choice not to see you. Please share some more of your story if you would like to. I appreciate all input.
I am trying so hard to get things right. It has been so so difficult around here the past few weeks. One might think that things would be calmer as I’m reading and learning now how better to deal with my wife. One might think that, if they were not familiar with bpd… I am learning that there are ways to validate her feelings and use words which make her respond more calmly. I am finding this very hard to be honest. But what I am finding more difficult is the overwhelming new understanding that I have, that I have to stand up to her, for my sake, for my children, and for my parents. I am making changes and she hates it. I am wearing clothes she told me not to wear, I am playing the piano (a little bit). I tried to video call parents again today but they didn’t answer sadly. But the worst thing I did today was booked in a piano student for an extra one hour lesson next Saturday, as his exam is coming up and I did this WITHOUT HER PERMISSION. Despite his exam coming up, the fact is we need the money, which is because only I work and only as much as she’ll let me, and she spends all the money we don’t have.
I am trying. I really am. Not Wendy, if I hadn’t found the forum and learnt of your story… I think my family would become exactly like your childhood family. But I am heeding your warnings and trying so so hard to escape what I read in my book is a narcissistic family system, where the needs of one parent come above everything else including the children. I am cuddling my daughter when she wants me to. My wife knows I am standing up to her. She doesn’t know why or anything I’m learning. But I know she could choose that this isn’t the relationship she wants (she has threatened it enough). And if it comes down to it then I will have deal with the break up and ensuing custody battle (she reckons she’d get like 90% custody).

Broken Person- I am glad you are trying and yes, it is difficult but for your sake and the children's sake- you know these family dynamics- where one person's needs become the singular focus and rule the family - are not good for anyone in the family and even not good for the person of focus.

One reason why posters have suggested video of your wife's angry behavior is if in case of a custody battle. Your wife is good with cuddling babies, but children grow up and soon may be engaged in similar dynamics with your wife as she looks to them to meet her needs too. You know it isn't in their best interest for her to have sole custody. I know you hope it does not come to this but it may help you to advocate for joint or sole custody if you ever needed to do that.

Gypsy- it might help to look at the family board at the children of a BPD parent posts and see what a struggle it is to even consider cutting contact with an abusive BPD parent- no matter what that parent has done. This is because a parent is such a significant relationship. We don't want to do this. It's done out of desperation and a last resort after trying to communicate to a parent to stop the behavior and realizing that just doesn't work. As to the other parent- that parent often sides with their partner and doesn't acknowledge the child's situation. They don't want to cut contact with the partner but resisting an abusive relationship with one parent also involves the partner too.

Unless your children are cruel or disordered themselves, they have likely tried other ways to communicate their situation with you, and that has not been effective. If at all possible, you do have the opportunity to make amends. It is likely going to be hard to hear what they have to say, but consider that in the kind of family dynamics they grew up in, they don't feel heard. You may not be able to change your access to the grandchildren but don't approach this with a motive. They are likely not going to believe you if you do that. They need to know you are doing this because they matter to you, regardless of the outcome. Taking this step could possibly mean a lot to them.

Thanks not Wendy,
I don’t know how people make videos of an angry bpd, I would expect their phone would end up getting smashed against the wall.
I wanted to let you know I video called my mother today. She was out shopping so I didn’t see dad, but my daughter enjoyed seeing granny on the screen and my wife even held up the baby to say hi.

Update: today my wife announced that she has been thinking about us visiting my parents this coming Sunday. She agreed that it was a good idea to check with them as they often have other visitors and I know my wife wouldn’t want this. So it is all arranged. My mum was so happy. I am happy too but I just can’t quite believe it until it happens.
I just would like some general advice please, if anyone would like to share their thoughts. I’m worried my wife will change her mind, with some excuse, something that doesn’t exactly make sense. This has happened before with other arrangements we have made. We have established on this thread that I do need her cooperation. I genuinely think she would physically snatch the child away from me if I just said I was taking her. She does not generally get physical these days but then I don’t ever take away the children, even for a few hours.
If we do make it there then we are only staying for an hour then leaving. But my mum was still happy, she said it was like a Christmas present. My wife generally feels that my parents ignore her and aren’t interested in her and don’t care about her. Could it be a good idea to try and get mum to include her more? Or is this just caretaking? Wife feels that everything is about no. 1 the children and no. 2 me. She won’t entertain the idea of me going without her though, with just one of the children.
Another thing my wife hates is that mum prints out pictures of our children from Facebook, or that we sent to her, and puts them in frames. I thought this was quite a normal thing to do but my wife hates it. She never wanted my mum to have any pictures and also hates her showing them to other people. I’m ashamed to say that when baby 1 was tiny, I refused to send mum pictures so she could show her friends, because wife forbid it. I have moved onto taking and sending photos but it’s been a hard road. Also, her mum doesn’t print pictures and frame them (she’s says she doesn’t know how, although her husband could help her). I went to parents a few weeks ago and didn’t tell my wife about these pictures (she has not been there since we had the children), so I also feel she will be angry with me about this. One of the pictures mum has of the kids, we had printed and bought a sister frame online but it was smashed when we got it so we never got round to getting a different frame. It’s now packed in a box for moving so we don’t even see it.
I am so nervous. I just so want this to go well. We may be moving far away soon and it will be harder though not impossible to see my parents. Obviously I can go when I want, but not with the children. I really appreciate any of your thoughts. It is now fairly predictable how my wife will act and react and what will upset her. Yet she continues to surprise me for some reason. And it doesn’t make it any easier.

well its possible that she will change her mind.   and it's understandable you are thinking along those lines.    what you can do is work to think how you will react if she changes at the last minute.   I would suggest you make the trip anyhow.    and stay as long as you think reasonable.


this is concerning.     the bpdfamily site has a strong safety first message.  safety for you and safety for the children.   getting physical with you or with the children is not okay.    the oldest child is probably old enough now to understand or react to the 'snatching' or pushing if something were to break out.    i understand you aren't ready but this is where a professional could/would be invaluable.   


which do you think it is BP?   



your wife has a very high need to obsessively control the things around her so she feels in control of herself.    it's a maladaptive coping technique.    the more control she puts on the people and things around her the more she believes she is better for it.    except it's not working.   of course.    the more she controls things, or tries to control things that do not belong to her the further she moves into a distorted reality.   the more reality distorts for her the more cognitive dissonance you have to deal with.   

'ducks

It's hard to predict what she will do, but I suggest you pay a lot of positive attention to her- positive reinforcement- how wonderful she is for helping plan a trip to see your parents. I wouldn't go overboard but maybe bring her something nice- a thank you card, flowers, something special for being so nice.

Your wife is making more meaning out of a "normal" response of grandparents. Of course it's all about the grandbabies and when they are little, they are always the center of attention. Your parents perceive your wife as an adult. They don't fawn over adults, but small children- yes of course they do, especially when they are their grandbabies.

However, your wife's emotional age may be much younger and she may make meaning out of the attention on the grandchildren. It's similar to her feelings when you pay attention to other things besides her- like a student or the kids. Your parents don't know this ( and probably not a good idea to discuss your wife with them)- they see an adult, and expect adult behavior.

However, I think if your mother is receptive, asking her ( in private) to make a gesture of paying more attention to your wife might help smooth things over. Is it emotional caretaking? It might be just meeting your wife at the emotional place she is.

But it also has to be authentic. I have noticed that my mother's FOO makes a big fuss over her, telling her how wonderful she is. It seems strange to me to see them do this, as I don't do this with adults to that extent, but I also see where they have learned to meet her at the emotional place she is at.  On one hand, it sometimes looks patronizing- don't do that- your wife will see right through that-, but she seems to crave and respond well to a lot of praise and compliments.

Ducks and not Wendy, thank you as always for your responses.
I will certainly do the trip alone if wife and kids aren’t coming for whatever reason. That’s a great idea. My wife is very much into Christmas and wants to drop off gifts way before Christmas and see her family next week too, especially as we’re still not sure if we’re moving soon. So I’m hopeful that this will go ahead.
Not Wendy that’s also a nice idea to thank wife with some flowers, I’m just a bit wary of doing it before the event though but of course if it doesn’t go ahead I’d have lost my chance. “Catch them being good” was the catchphrase in early childhood behaviour management training. I know it’s not quite the same but it’s happened before where I’ve missed such an opportunity to say how happy and proud I am of her. I guess, although it could be thought of as pressure, it also displays my confidence that she won’t change her mind (even though I have no idea).
My mum is usually very good at handling people, she would be respectful and not over the top, so I’ll try and chat to her about this if I get the chance, just that wife likes to be included, talked to about herself, and probably good to thank her for coming too even though we all know it really shouldn’t be necessary. I’ll just have to deal with whatever happens. I feel sad cos my mum is loving and it’s true she is more excited about the grandchildren than anything else but I’m ok with that. Would you believe it when our littlest was fighting for her life in nicu my wife got upset because everyone was asking, “how’s the baby?” Whilst I get that it’s nice to also ask about the mother, I couldn’t believe that she was actually upset that other people were worried about our baby.

Great advice going on in this thread.  I'm hoping to the trip moves forward and happens.

My one small tidbit of advice...instead of "being afraid" that your wife will change her mind...adopt a  "ok.."mind changing" is core to who my wife is..."   and be ready for it.  Mindset is very important...it will help you with your "tone".

Best,

FF

Thanks FF,
Yes I realised years ago that it is actually futile to express any disappointment or anger or anything else, when my wife changes her mind. Emotionally this particular one will be my hardest challenge yet. Interestingly, I have found  that if she says she’s changed her mind and is no longer doing something or going somewhere.. I have discovered that if I just say, “ok”, then there is actually a large possibility that within the next half hour or so she will suddenly say, “ok, let’s go”. Sometimes I’m confused because she says something like, “right I’ll get bits ready and you get kids in the car..” and I’m like, “hang on, so are we doing the thing we’re not doing, or are we doing something else?” I think the key is that when she can feel she’s in control, then she feels less pressure and is then happier to make that choice. I am just trying to navigate the fine line between working with an emotionally unstable partner to get what I want, and not giving into her every demand. As an aside, I did buy her flowers, a little Christmas tree, and some ice cream to say thank you, but then thought better of it, as when I gave it to her I could imagine her saying, “oh so you only got these cos of the family trip? You wouldn’t have got it if it wasn’t for that?”

Amazing how something nice can be twisted into something else. Maybe just give her the gifts and say nothing, maybe just say "cause you're special to me" and leave it at that.

The control aspect can feel crazy making, but control has a function- it reduces anxiety. It's also typical behavior of young children who are asserting themselves where they have no power in general. Think of the toddler who gets picky about clothing- wants the pink shirt - not the green one. Or only wants to eat chicken nuggets. This is their only realm of control.

My mother is both controlling and also dependent. I think the dependency is something she is ashamed of and resents in a way and compensates by appearing in control. She's intelligent but lacks executive function and also gets so anxious when she's expected to do something. She manages this by getting people to do things for her- one way or another and then presenting this as if she did it.

I recall as a teen that she signed up to bring some kind of snack to a school function and then coming home and demanding I bake something. If she's asked to bring some food for a potluck, she'll have someone else make it for her. I have been with her when she does cook something and she stops to ask questions at each step- did I put enough salt? Then did I put too much salt? What do I do next? I think she can do the job but she gets anxious and needs reassurance along the way. To overcome this, she would demand we do things instead. But something like cooking takes practice. We've all made errors in the kitchen- cooked something too long or messed up a recipe. We just move on from that and learn to not do that next time. For her though, since we did so much for her - she didn't learn and so there's a loss of self esteem with not being good at something.

So it's a paradox- she needs help with something and at the same time, feels shame about it- and so needs to feel she's in control. She's yelled at me while taking the trash bins out- because I didn't put them in the exact place she wanted me to ( they were a few inches away and the location didn't matter). I brought my father a treat and she threw it out because I didn't have her permission to put food in her refrigerator. Her car was in the shop and we offered to pick it up when it was ready and she refused to call the car shop to find out when that would be.

Your wife is in a position of dependency with you. You bring in the income and do a lot of the emotional caretaking. But this dependency creates a sense of shame for her too and she may be compensating emotionally with control where she can have power. If I ask my mother to do something, she also responds with "you are pressuring me" - she will do something when she decides.

I like your response of "OK". Once were were supposed to visit some family members that she likes. I had arranged the visit and the food for the occasion.  It should have been predictable that right before we were supposed to leave, she came up with some reason to back out.

I replied with " everyone there is expecting you and will be disappointed" and she responded with mean insults. So I said fine, I am leaving soon. When I got in the car- she got in the car too. Looking back, I should not have said the first part. Leaving it to her control, she got in the car.

So..I think you should change this "back" to normal.

Don't "save" a pwBPD from experiencing the normal reactions to their actions.

An irrational changing on the mind (with no basis in fact) is very likely to get a negative reaction from anyone.  (right..that's normal)

That doesn't mean it needs to be over the top...but think of it as a chance to model healthy behavior to her.

"Oh goodness..this is so disappointing you are deciding not to go.  I will miss you while kids and I do (fill in the blank)"

Now..I know at the moment "taking" kids from her is not something you appear to be willing to do.  I would ask you to sit with the "fact"...that isn't she doing that to you..AND YOU ARE TRAINING HER TO BELIEVE IT'S OK.


Can you take my example and give us a "word track" that you WOULD be comfortable doing at the moment?

Best,

FF

Thanks not Wendy and ff,
I’m so happy to let you know our trip went ahead today!  :wee:
My parents were so happy and the older child really enjoyed herself,  though the little one was a bit sad, she is teething. Buti took some nice pictures. The day had its challenges, mostly because my wife had planned it exactly so that we would spend an hour there, we left on time and everything… But we were supposed to be there for only an hour and I think it was closer to two hours by the time we left. This messes with baby lunch and nap times. So on the way home I was accused of taking advantage of her by overstaying and not noticing the time. But I handled these wild accusations well and didn’t shout or argue, actually I said very little. I feel so much more confident handling situations recently. FF, you are right, now that I’ve learnt I can stay calm, it will be easier for me to express disappointment or frustration etc, when my wife changes her mind at the last minute. I’m not sure what you meant by “word track”? The little one is breast feeding so I can’t take her anywhere. The older one I could, but I have never taken her anywhere alone, only looked after her at home while my wife was out for whatever reason. I think even when she has her hair done (rarely), she would be upset if we went to the park without her. There may be an opportunity to try this out soon.
Thank you all for the support and advice. Although my wife still has much of the control, I seriously doubt that today would have happened if I hadn’t learnt some new ways to handle and discuss things with her. Finding the forum has been life-changing for me, and made a difference to my parents too.

 |iiii Good work!

Congratulates on your successful visit to your parents.   I'm glad this happened and I am happy to see you making positive changes.   

one quick thought:


Until FF pops back in,  I will take a shot at this.   

my experience was that arguments or conflicts with my Ex really followed a very predictable pattern.    I bet if you think about it, you could have predicted you would have been accused of taking advantage and not paying attention to the time.   there is a pattern there.    part of how BPD processes information.   

my experience was that my responses also followed a pattern, or a word track.   and that I needed to change how I phrased my response to have a chance of being heard.   that wasn't easy.

you seem to have a very good handle on 'not making the conflict worse'.   when she accused you of taking advantage you didn't shout or argue.    excellent.    that's a great skill.   to know that this isn't about you.   it's about her and her world view.   

I'd say the next step is to learn how to respond to 'you took advantage'    in ways that allow you to state your thoughts and hopefully be heard.   to change your "word track".

what do you think?

Yes..."word track".  

It's something you can practice and tweak when you are not under pressure so when you are under pressure it comes out..almost automatically.  

An example of "tweaking" might be practicing "owning" emotions..vice accusing someone else of making you  feel xyz.

Something like "I'm so sad about this" compared to "you made me sad when you.."

Plus the predictability lets you preform more complex word tracks for SET and/or DEARMAN.  At least for me, no chance of forming those "on the fly" when I'm under pressure from my pwBPD.

"Predictability"  is your friend.  In my r/s I could predict about 80-90% of the conflict and prep for it.  "Word tracks" are still good for the remaining 10%..because you can practice saying "Oh babe...this sounds so important.  Let me think about this and get back to you tomorrow."

Best,

FF

Nice job! Glad that worked out.

"take advantage of her" oh please. If you really think about it, that's absurd. It's her wanting to feel in control, or special, due to low self esteem. You got 2 hours instead of 1 with your parents and that's taking advantage?

I am glad you didn't JADE. By defending ourselves, we give power to these accusations that really don't hold water. This, to me, is in the pink elephant category. I'd be inclined to not respond to this kind of thinking. It's not something we can change.

I am glad you had a lovely time with your parents. Yes, it's hard to have alone time with a baby who is still breast feeding, but the older one is going to get more independent over time. ( and the baby will too). While breast feeding is a good thing to do, be aware it also brings your wife a sense of control. The natural progression of childhood is for children to gradually become less dependent. Soon they can feed themselves, then dress themselves and more. Then they ask to go to the park, or play with friends, and you can gradually take on more one on one time with them. It's also common to see one parent at the park with the children while the other parent does something on their own. Sometimes both parents are there together as well. It's OK to do either way. Keep that in mind as your children grow.

By sense of control- baby care also gives your wife a sense of purpose. Seems she is good at caring for babies. As the baby grows- she may want another one to regain this sense of purpose. Be mindful that a child is their own person and while being a parent also can be fulfilling- it's not the child's purpose to meet the needs of the parent. It's the other way around. Maybe you will decide on another child, but maybe not. Either way- that child will grow up too. What other activities, interests, can bring your wife a sense of purpose that she might want to develop? Something to think about.

Thank you all. Word tracks are interesting. You’re right ducks, I can often predict what my wife will get upset about and what she will say, before it’s even happened. Sometimes I prepare for things that don’t even happen, like the picture mum had printed of the kids, I don’t know if my wife noticed it. Also she didn’t complain about my mum at all, I think because she was greeted enthusiastically as I had said to mum to please make sure she made some small effort to acknowledge my wife a bit more.
So I all feeling somewhat successful but also somewhat muddling through. I obviously said (or didn’t say?) some good things in the car. The children were asleep in the back of the car which also makes it easier for me not to shout. I was suddenly accused of not keeping the two year old awake for the journey, not that I had been assigned this role clearly.
I have heard of set, which I do attempt though I find the empathy part hard. I am not familiar with the term dearman so this may be helpful if you can explain it. I do use “I” statements when I remember. Slight mess up this morning when she said, “we should start budgeting on our food shopping”. To me this spells disaster, because the less food/snacks we have here, the more likely she will order take out. Obviously this does not save us money and I said, “I’ll be impressed if you can go a whole week without ordering food in” and this was “putting her down”, when I was just frustrated hearing the same old story again…
Not Wendy, you asked about my wife having new activities etc to give her a sense of purpose. She is totally aware that she is lacking in this area. She knows that’s why she’s jealous of me playing the piano, making crafts, over the years she has stopped me reading books etc for this reason. As you know, she was feeling very positive about the house move (we still don’t know if it’s going ahead as we’re waiting to see if the buyer offers less money at the last minute and then we’ll say no). So things are difficult, especially with Christmas approaching. My wife is aware that she turns to food and shopping when she feels down, and that she needs different coping habits and different interests. I don’t know how I can help her with this. She doesn’t have much time away from baby, like even in the house… baby is happy to sit on my wife’s lap even when she’s not feeding, but then once handed to me she whines! Yes I know when they get older there will be more opportunities to parent the children separately. I have even pointed out to my wife that the more children we have, the harder it will be to do everything together. Do you or anyone have any ideas how I can help my wife find some other interests? She is  keen to make new friends if we move to a new area. I think this would be a positive thing for our family and for the children to meet more people too.

DEARMAN is a dbt communication tool.  if you google DEARMAN and DBT you will get a few million examples.

D = describe
E = express
A = assert
R = request / reinforce
M = (stay) mindful
A = appear /act assertive
N = negotiate

it's not so much a validation technique as it is a way to express a request or say No.


so this sounds like a predictable argument or communications attempt.   let's use it as a handy example.

“we should start budgeting on our food shopping”

a validating question, something like: "what made you think of that suddenly?"
a SET, something like: "Budgeting is a good idea. I am glad you are thinking of it.   I would like us to get on a budget too."
a DEARMAN, something like: "Our food expenses have been growing.  Seems like there are a couple of reasons for that.   We should budget for take out and for shopping.   Can you start putting together a budget?  I think you should be able to make a good start on it, and then we can work on it together."

when we are in conversation with another person, we make choices all the time about which way we are going to respond.   most times we don't think of the choices they happen automatically.   you expressed your frustration and she reacted negatively to your negative emotion.   not a surprise.    and not unreasonable.  everyone one gets frustrated and snaps from time to time.    you might still be in a little bit of a stress reaction from your trip to see your parents.  but as we play with this example you can see how different responses could lead  off into different directions.   

make sense?


perhaps a good start would be to encourage her to put the baby down, and identify what interests her.   this might be hard as a pwBPD doesn't usually have a well defined sense of self.   Not enough to say "I would really like to learn to bake"  or "I wouldn't be interested in playing golf."    it appears from what you write she is over focused and over fixated on the children. as NotWendy points out that will change as they age.    be aware is helping her.   being aware to not reinforce her fixation is helping.   being on the lookout for when she expresses an interest is helping.   baby steps here.   no pun intended.

'ducks

Hi ducks,
Thank you as always for your wise insights and advice. You are right of course, yes I did react badly to my wife’s suggestion of a food shopping budget, but then it’s an improvement on what I feel like saying, “what’s the point? You’re only going to complain that we have no food and then order, McDonalds, pizza, Starbucks, even if I’m not here, even if you have no money…” etc etc I know it’s always a good idea to be supportive of my wife’s thoughts and feelings, even though she talks about many things that I know will not happen. Funny you mention baking.. Ironically it was when her diet was going well that she developed an obsession over watching TikTok videos about baking. Part of this dream was our new kitchen in our new home and a very expensive food processor she wanted for Christmas. We still don’t know if we’re moving so all these plans are not going ahead. She tends to like the idea of something but also seems to want to be these people with their expensive equipment and anyone who’s happy doing anything really. She always seems to feel others have an easier better life. But then when she tries anything it’s too much effort and she gives up easily. I get annoyed with stupid TikTok videos making baking look super easy lol…
We went to visit my wife’s parents yesterday. She accused me of trying to start arguments all morning (before and during the journey). She always accuses me of this and ironically I now know to not argue and not say that I’m not trying to start an argument. She was upset because the baby’s outfit didn’t fit and said, “why does everything have to be perfect when we saw your parents but rubbish with mine?” (Her parents have met the kids hundreds of times).  But then I did my new trick of not saying much and then when we went in then she was fine. It’s worth noting that one reason she doesn’t like my family is because her family just don’t do gatherings and especially with food involved. Her two sisters were disowned by her dad as teenagers and he also disowned his own mother. Her uncle abused her as a child. Her mother seems nice but they never visited her parents as children so although she talks of her grandparents with love, it feels to me like she didn’t really know them. Her mum phoned up the night before asking us what drinks we wanted lol but then didn’t offer us a drink until we were about to leave. Families are hard work anyway. My mum tries so hard to make everyone feel welcome, but my sister in law is just as difficult to please. Still it gave me comfort when I realised recently that my brother is also some kind of caretaker and it made me feel closer to him.

Sorry if I wasn't clear.   I actually don't think you responded poorly to your wife about the budget.    All those responses are perfectly valid depending on what you want to express.  It which choice works best for you.

So...you have very clear examples...of how your wife doesn't have good examples of "healthy family life".

Is that fair?

I wonder how a conversation can be started about "traditions" that you guys want to start as a family...maybe ask her about things from childhood she wants to stay away from and things she wants to do...

Likely best to keep discussing this idea here first...before trying it in your relationship.

You are doing well with this..keep up the hard work!   |iiii

Best,

FF

The good thing is, my wife does want to be a wonderful mother. She recognises that her family were unusual and her stories about childhood are always tinged with sadness. I think she never really felt loved or wanted and knowing her parents, I get this. She wants our children to feel loved, supported, heard, particularly with making friends and mental health. She reads to them, plays with them, sometimes does baking and crafts. She often says that she wants to take them places, as she never went to the zoo or on holiday. In comparison, I went to lots of places and my parents told me stories and helped me with homework. I knew everyone in my family pretty well and enjoyed seeing them. My wife hates the idea that the children will ask me for help with school work, once they realise she doesn’t understand it. I have said on here before that one of my goals is to teach them to play the piano, if they are interested. She has said she absolutely won’t allow it. I haven’t told her that I still wish to proceed.
I have a new thought about a family visit. I know my brother and wife and child are visiting my parents on 28th Dec. We already dropped off their presents as we didn’t expect to see them. They have never met our children. My brother’s wife is also bossy and controlling and she doesn’t like me. I haven’t had such a good relationship with him since they met 20 years ago. But I have recently recognised that he is a caretaker too. We are so very different… who would have known it? I don’t know why, I always knew he was being controlled but then couldn’t understand why… but yet I was always being controlled in my relationships when I didn’t want to be…

Oh so I realised it missed off the end of my message, which said that I really would love us all to go up again on that day to see my brother’s family and for my parents to see all the grandchildren together. I haven’t mentioned this idea to my wife yet. I don’t want to heap on too much pressure too soon.

Hey...it's good that you can now "see" relationship dynamics at play..this is a long process, much more to "see".

It's often an even longer process to "see" the role that we have chosen to play in a relationship...and then to own your choices or if you are not happy with them..to choose differently.

I would encourage you to approach your brother from the point of view of

"I always knew he allowed others to control him..." or "I always knew he handed his decision making to others.."

Once we are responsible for our own choices...we can make better choices for the future.

Keep up the hard work!

Best,

FF

It's not surprising that your wife's family is dysfunctional. These patterns can be intergenerational.

Keep in mind the idea of projection when she accuses you of things you didn't do or says things like why is it perfect with your family but not hers? These are her own feelings but she tends to project them outward. Often once they are projected, she likely feels better. You might not, as they are hurtful, but you did the right thing to not respond to the words as they may just be feelings in the moment for her.

Seems she's quite possessive of her relationship with the babies. Odd that she doesn't want you helping with homework or teaching piano. Most parents would be delighted to have their children learn to play a musical instrument. More likely, it's not the piano but the one on one time you have with them. Or that you are better at these things than she is. I wonder- have you ever considered teaching your wife to play? Then she'd have the one on one time with you. Even if she's not interested in seriously studying the piano, she might enjoy being able to play something fun, like a pop song or Christmas carol?

 Interesting about the school work as that is quite simple at pre-school age. And the cooking. One thing I have observed with my BPD mother is the lack of "executive function".  She's intelligent but gets anxious over tasks, concerned she's not doing things well enough. She rarely cooks but has tried to cook when we visit- and asks at each step- "is this enough salt" then "is it not enough salt" "which pan do I use"- she seems to need a lot of reassurance for each step.

When I was a teen, she'd have me do any baking for her. Mostly she's been critical with me. However recently she said something that shocked me- that she was impressed at my ability to figure out a recipe. I think that's the first time I heard a positive statement like that from her. I wonder if, by my teens, she felt intimidated that I had these skills and it may have been a cause of some of our conflicts.

Dad helped with homework. That was a special time for us kids as he enjoyed academics. I think that also caused some friction as it was a relationship that excluded her. However, my parents also wanted us to do well in school so she didn't protest him helping us.

When what your wife says or does - does not make logical sense- consider that the thing she's complaining about or protesting isn't the actual issue but there's emotion behind that. While we can't read minds, ( and I don't encourage trying to do that), addressing the feeling, not the issue might help.

"I don't want you helping the kids with homework or piano" is " I can't do that and I am afraid the kids will think I am stupid". Reassuring her that she's loved and admired might help.

Hi not Wendy,
Thank you for your advice and thoughts. My wife has always been jealous of my ability to play the piano because she can’t do it. That’s why she doesn’t want me to play and has forbidden me from teaching the children. I have tried to teach her but she has little patience, tells me I’m a rubbish teacher, and walks away. Of course, at the moment neither of us have much time for it. I’d love to help her build confidence. I try to help her with mathematical issues etc but she says she doesn’t want that from a wife. I think with that kind of thing then I have to wait until the children are older to see how I can deal with it. My wife goes through stages of getting into cooking but then she’ll misunderstand something like putting in a tablespoon instead of a teaspoon and then gets very upset. She has no cooking sense or knowledge because her mother never allowed her in the kitchen as she would make a mess. As an adult her mum still tidied her room against her wishes. Her mother is strange. When we met online, we used to video call. My wife had a severe eating disorder and wasn’t eating, and one day she said she was so hungry and I spent some time trying to convince her to go downstairs and get some food. It was about 10pm when she went down and said to her mother she was going to make some food. My wife was 21 years old. And her mother said, “no you’re not messing up the kitchen and making cooking smells at this time of night!” And my wife went to bed without any food. I was devastated. Her mother knew she had an eating disorder. If that was my child I would be happy about her ever eating anything! Another reason I know my wife is unhappy about my relationship with my mother is how much mum wants to see me. If she asks her mother if we can visit, she’s always like, “hmm, not sure, I have washing to do and dusting and vacuuming…” She is obsessed with cleaning. She has built her life routine and it because she doesn’t work, her husband has muscular dystrophy so she cares for him.
Honestly, I am learning so much about how my wife’s emotions of the moment affect what comes out of her mouth. It is really eye-opening and makes me so much less upset, which in turn reduces conflict.
We won’t be going to the gathering in December but it’s because my wife has two dogs coming to stay, she used to do this to earn extra cash sometimes. I’m so glad she has chosen to step in and help out with the financial obligations, as her maternity benefit has stopped. I know I will be helping with the dogs but I don’t mind.