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Children, Parents, or Relatives with BPD => Parent, Sibling, or In-law Suffering from BPD => Topic started by: Methuen on January 09, 2022, 01:34:10 PM



Title: She sees me as her mother
Post by: Methuen on January 09, 2022, 01:34:10 PM
OMG.  It is really really getting to me.

We all know that our mothers have groomed us to be caretakers of their emotional needs.  And we all know there is no bottom to their bucket of emotional needs.  It's a black hole.  In my case, once mom was widowed (16 years ago), and she started aging, her physical needs got layered onto her emotional needs.  I suspect my mother is one of her doctor's most complex patients (he has a lifetime of experience and a great reputation).

Yesterday I saw my T.  I am in distress.  Most of the time to others, I don't look in distress.  I'm quite adept at covering it up, and compartmentalizing.  I'm pretty sure that even H thinks I've been doing great.  He comes to T with me.  Yesterday at T, he saw I wasn't doing great.

T wasn't helpful yesterday.  The biggest thing I got out of her yesterday was "there is no easy answer".  The second biggest thing I got was her pointing out that I am overwhelmed and outside of my window of tolerance (window of normal ebbs and flows and ups and downs with mother), which is obvious to me without her telling me that.  At the end she asked, "what has worked for you in the past?"  My reply:   when I went to New Zealand 3 years ago (I live in Canada) and was as far away from her as possible.  Every day I was there I felt better, until a few days before it was time to return home and I started to feel worse again.  Distance is the only thing that makes me feel better.  She didn't know what to say.  I need to leave my T sessions with something to work on, or something I've learned, or something to think about.  Yesterday I left frustrated.  I don't want to just tell my story and voice my frustrations.  I need guidance, 'cause I'm not doing well.

This morning I get the following text from mom.  Keep in mind that mom has been losing her ability to do self care.  For a couple of years she's had someone come to her house to do her hair for her.  But it's been at LEAST a month since that has happened, maybe it's even been 2-3 months because of the whole eye infection catastrophe.  I don't know.   Her hair actually smells, and is stringy from the oil.  Her hairdresser was scheduled to come to her house today.  Here is her text to me:

Mom's text: no perm today.  Tomorrow she will wash after her work.  Then perm mid-month.

OK.  I don't need to know this.  It's not my business.   Or my problem.  

On the surface to an average person this probably looks like a simple communication from an old person whose world has become smaller.  Innocent enough.

It's not innocent.  Remember when you were 6 years old (or 16) , and had to report to your mother where you were going and what you were doing all the time?  She's flipped the  :cursing:mother daughter role, and made me her mother.  She's reporting every minutae detail of her life every day to her mother (me), except I don't need or want to hear it.

About a year ago, in one of her rehab phases after a fall with more broken bones (she has osteoporosis Tscore -5.4), she was all waify (when isn't she waify?) and in about a 4 year old little girl voice said "will you be my mommy"?  At the time, I joked it off that she was too independent for that, and then changed the subject.  But afterwards, I've kind of been seething about it ever since.  There's so much I am seething about.

In her presence, I have all kinds of tools to manage her.  I do quite well managing her when I am with her.  She is as happy with me as she has been in a long time (two years?  when she was last hateful, spiteful, and vengeful).  I have changed how I interact with her, and now there is little to no conflict.  That's great.  But despite that, I am struggling.

My mother lost her mother to cancer when she was 14.  It was traumatic.  Her father was an evil person, a mentally sick person, and abused all of his 7 kids.  Their mother was reportedly kind (although the siblings all report there was no love in the home), so losing her mother was losing the only "safety" they had.  My mother had to stay home from school for 5 months and care for her mother while she wasted away and died from cancer (this was about 1950 so no treatment back then).

My mother is empty inside.  She has no sense of self.  She looks to others to fill her void.  She doesn't know what love is.  Ton of stories around that topic.  She also clearly has mental issues around "needing a mommy".

I do my best to be a decent human being, and a daughter.  I'm an only child.  But, I'm smothered and flipping drowning.

Yes I'm doing self-care again.  I am starting to think there is no amount of self-care I can do that will help me manage the _ _ _ _ that comes with being the caretaker of a ubpd mom that has no other family to assist her in her old age.

I am sure that her friends think I could do more, like wash her hair for her, for example.  I cannot do that.  It's too intimate.  Ick.

Of course I ignore these kinds of texts from her.  I NEVER reply to those.  I don't give any positive reinforcement to that kind of behavior.  But since she has flipped roles, and sees me as her mother,  and has ZERO awareness, and is narcissistic, it really doesn't matter if I don't respond.  The texts just keep coming because it fills a need for HER.  She's reporting to her mommy.  It makes HER feel better.

Of course I cannot have a conversation with her.  It would invalidate her.  It would set her off on a complete emotional dysregulation.  The snake would strike back with words of venom.  It would make things so much worse, like it was 2 years ago (before I learned how to change how I interact with her).

Boundaries?  I have set up so many boundaries.  I'm tired of setting up boundaries.

I'm just tired.  I need more space from her texts, and from being responsible to meet her needs (such as medical appointments).  She rents way too much space in my head.  In the night when I wake up, she is the first thought in my head.  I have strategies to get back to sleep.  Sometimes they work, and sometimes they just don't.

I just need space.  But space from her isn't possible as long as she is on this earth.

Christmas day she was with us all day.  S26, D24 and boyfriend basically entertained her all day while I looked after the "work" of Christmas day.  H helped me in the kitchen, and also helped with mom. He was the bridge between me and her.  She had a great day.  "Best Christmas ever".   But at the end of the day, after the kids had taken her home again, I knew it had been too much for me.  She was in my space all day.  It was just too much, even though others looked after the "work" of having her in our house.

What to do.  T wasn't helpful yesterday, so I'm back here today, doing lots of good self care.  But all the self-care in the world isn't cutting it, because the underlying problem is still the same.

What am I missing?  I have done so much to change how I interact with her, to manage the relationship issues on the surface.  She is happy with me.

I don't have it in me to "abandon" her.  I've already set up so many boundaries, the most recent one is not "texting me in the middle of the night" (for example: telling me how dizzy and nauseated she is).  

It's just wacko.


Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: Riv3rW0lf on January 09, 2022, 02:12:04 PM
Methuen,

I am honestly sorry you are struggling. I understand so very much the need for distance, and the feeling of obligation of being there for your mother in her old age. I worked with elders for 6 years when I was a teenager. My uBPDm would leave her nursing home in my 16 years old arms and I would cook, clean them, give them their meds, the whole thing. It's not easy taking care of elderly people, it is even worst taking take of your elderly parents and it must be hell taking care of the BPD mother who abused you herself.

I know you feel bad for her, I understand what it is to carry both your own abuse AND your mother's abuse, to not allow yourself the right to be angry with her because you understand her pain. And I know you know you need to take care of yourself and you are all out of ideas.

Let's brainstorm...

How about forcing her texts to a spam folder?
I do that with my uBPDm right now. I don't see when she texts, and I look at the folder only when I feel strong enough to look at them.

How about ... An art class? Do you paint? Do you do music? It might seems weird but to this day I think music saved my sanity. Art can be such a great way to tunnel your anger, pain and frustration to create something, while freeing yourself.

Big hug !  I wish I could do more.


Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: GaGrl on January 09, 2022, 03:19:55 PM
I agree the therapy was not helpful this week. Have you thought yet about how to shift the next therapy to be more effective?

I ask this because I don't see your mother's eventual death as "setting you free" so much as giving you a slightly different set of complicated emotions to work through. Perhaps that is work that you and the T can start now.

My mom died eight months ago, and I am still fragile and seconds guessing my care of her in the last months of her life.


Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: zachira on January 09, 2022, 03:38:07 PM
We hear you loud and clear that you do not want your mother to rent so much space in your head. Words cannot describe the constant distress of being influenced since childhood to take on your mother's dysregulated emotions so she will not have to take responsibility for how she feels, and this is extremely challenging when you are an only child and in constant contact with her. Perhaps reading "The Body Knows the Score" and exploring some therapies that deal with the body directly and help to calm the mind could be a new direction. From my own experience, there came a time when talking about the ongoing bombardment of abuse from my family members did not help; it just seemed to overwhelm me more, and body work was really what got me back on track. Unfortunately the pandemic has limited some of my body coping strategies, like getting massages, though I am still practicing yoga, and meditation which all help. It does make sense that being away from your mother for extended periods of time is a tremendous relief. It is like you are ready to let go of the most dysfunctional parts of your relationship with her and can't because she is still dependent on you to be her primary caretaker without giving you the legal authority to really do what is right for you and for her. It seems you can no longer wait for your mother to go to assisted living or pass away before taking the necessary steps to limit your contact with her for your well being and that of the wonderful family you have created with your husband and children. Would it help to think of doing what is right for them to take precedence over caring for your mother?


Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: Notwendy on January 09, 2022, 03:51:43 PM
I feel for you Methuen,

I think my mother would prefer her children cater to her, but none of us live close enough to her to do that, and I think there's reason we need the distance. I've mentioned before that even the thought of her being closer to me causes me distress.

I have heard my mother's mother was a good mother. I suspect that someone abused my mother but I don't know who that may have been. I don't think it was her parents, but she grew up in the time where all the relatives lived near each other. It could have been someone watching her while her parents were out. I have no proof but her behavior makes me think something happened.

She has a large need to be taken care of, even if she can do something herself, she seems to need someone to do these things for her. Assessing her physical needs, she doesn't need much care thankfully but emotionally, she needs constant attention.

Sadly, I have probably disappointed my mother by not doing enough for her and even in my own standard, I would want to do more for an elderly parent. During the times I was able to see my father, I would cook a meal for him, help him do laundry- he was always appreciative. With my mother it seems nothing is enough and somehow she is disappointed in me regardless. We kids have decided that even though her circle of people must think we are horrible children, that's the result of us trying to preserve our own emotional well being.

I also could not do my mother's hair. My mother isn't affectionate. She doesn't hug or touch me. I also don't do that to her. I get a strange recoil feeling if she does touch me. She prefers the hairdresser anyway.


Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: Couscous on January 09, 2022, 04:41:01 PM
One of my sisters refers to our mother as "the mom child". I think that the role-reversal began with all of us at about age 3. It must be terrifying for such a young child to witness her mother becoming a helpless waif. I have observed how waif mode is the single biggest trigger for all of us siblings and I think the child part of ourselves equates waif mode with danger. I lost it with her on one occasion when this happened.

I actually discussed this with my T just last week. He assures me that as I continue working to strengthen the healthy adult part of myself, that this will become less of a trigger for me. But this would be much harder to do if I interacted with her on a daily basis.



Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: Notwendy on January 09, 2022, 06:56:07 PM
I have a memory of being about age 12 and discussing something I learned in school with my father at dinner. He was clearly interested in the conversation. Suddenly my mother started blurting out silly statements and acting like a child. This stopped the conversation and I felt as if I was older than her. I recall this as the first time I felt like that but in time, I but in time, more was expected from me. It was puzzling. I had to behave, I had to obey her, I could not say anything to her that may be seen as "talking back" yet she could rage, act out, - and no consequences.

Waif mode is the hardest for me to observe as well. To add to this, she is a very petite and dainty woman.

I was an athletic child.  By my teens, I was taller than her and stronger than her, and so felt I needed to help her.



Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: Methuen on January 09, 2022, 07:34:33 PM
How about forcing her texts to a spam folder?
I do that with my uBPDm right now. I don't see when she texts, and I look at the folder only when I feel strong enough to look at them.
I love this idea.  But how do you do this?  I have an iphone.  My mom has an ipad (which we bought for her).  To my knowledge I can "block" her.  I have googled setting up a spam folder for specifically her texts, but I am getting no results on how to do that.  Help?

Yes I do music.  The relief is temporary, and ends when my music making ends.  Likewise with the art, which I picked up as a hobby post retirement.  

Today I also went on my treadmill (I live in snowstorm country), and did yoga.  Again, the relief is temporary, and ends when the activity ends.  The endorphins don't last.

I seem to have reached a stage where the self-care isn't having a sustained positive effect.

But, getting back to RiverWolf's suggesion, if anyone can confirm that there is a way to set up a spam folder between 2 imessage users, without totally "blocking" the person (I like the idea of being able to check "moms spam folder" when I feel strong enough versus actually "blocking her"), I feel this would be a useful tool.  In the meantime, I went to my settings and changed the notification sound for her to "duck", so I at least know when the duck quacks, I don't have to look at my phone.  lol

I agree the therapy was not helpful this week. Have you thought yet about how to shift the next therapy to be more effective?

I ask this because I don't see your mother's eventual death as "setting you free" so much as giving you a slightly different set of complicated emotions to work through. Perhaps that is work that you and the T can start now.

My mom died eight months ago, and I am still fragile and seconds guessing my care of her in the last months of her life.
OK.  Can you expand GaGrl?  What I'm hearing is that it doesn't end, or get better,  when they die.  I have heard this before.  Gotta admit, I'm kinda focussed on just getting through tomorrow.  And then the next day... but I hear you, and acknowledge that the emotional trauma doesn't end suddenly when they pass... But surely there must be relief when the daily triggers from their daily behavior are gone?

Gagrl, in the 2 1/2 yrs I've been on this forum, you stand out as someone who has definitely "done their best" to support your mom, while still maintaining a relationship with her.  This included actually moving her into your home.  You must be a saint to do that, within humanly possible behavior and minor skirmishes.  It is concerning that you are still second guessing your care of her.  From my very limited perspective (don't know you well), it strikes me you did as much as humanly possible under the situation.  What more could you have done?  For the record, I have NOT moved my mother in with me...and I'm ok with that.

So, any more concrete guidance on how to direct my T?  I've been quite unsatisfied the last few visits, and now feel as if it must be my job to tell her what I need!  But I don't know what I need (other than mom being deemed incompetent and forced into assisted living, or her passing which would end the demands and emotional torture, but that's not a very healthy thought), and feel like it is her role to help me sort through what I need and move forward with goals and strategies.  I'm all ears as to what you are getting at when you say "shifting the next therapy".

It does make sense that being away from your mother for extended periods of time is a tremendous relief. It is like you are ready to let go of the most dysfunctional parts of your relationship with her and can't because she is still dependent on you to be her primary caretaker without giving you the legal authority to really do what is right for you and for her.
This is a dead ringer Zachira.  You summed it up beautifully.  I think it would help to think of what is right for me (and H) instead of focussing my thoughts on what is right for her, and trying to be the good daughter doing the right things, except that she is sucking me dry much like the deatheaters in Harry Potter.  

D24 just called me after finishing a convo with her grandma.  (D24 has lives in a different city far away from us.)  D24 was in tears.  Grandma was emotionally manipulating her.  I am P _ _ _ _ _.  I suggested she take a break from FaceTiming with her grandma while she is learning a new job, and already stressed, especially if grandma makes her feel worse.  

So your point about looking after ourselves instead of my mom, is well taken.

Easier said than done.  Tomorrow is mom's next in-person appointment with her family doctor.  That has the potential to go all kinds of bad.  H is transporting her.  I am meeting them at the appointment, and then leaving right after (to go to my volunteer work).  H transporting her back home.  She has so many flipping appointments.   Meanwhile she told D24 that there must be something wrong, because H and I aren't doing enough and spending enough time with her.  Then she told D24 to keep that a secret.  She also told D24 she wasn't going to take her new Cinimet prescription as prescribed. D24 is in health care.  D24 didn't take the bait, and said nothing.  She was triggered.  I am triggered at  how my mother is manipulating her.

During the times I was able to see my father, I would cook a meal for him, help him do laundry- he was always appreciative. With my mother it seems nothing is enough and somehow she is disappointed in me regardless. We kids have decided that even though her circle of people must think we are horrible children, that's the result of us trying to preserve our own emotional well being.

I also could not do my mother's hair. My mother isn't affectionate. She doesn't hug or touch me. I also don't do that to her. I get a strange recoil feeling if she does touch me. She prefers the hairdresser anyway.
I think I'm approaching the highlighted part.  Thanks for the validation on the hair.  "Recoil" is exactly what I feel about it.

Couscous - your observation about the Waif being a trigger is accurate.  My mom is a waif 24/7.  My mom and "waif" are synonymous.  And you are right that it is hard to manage on a daily basis.  Sometimes hourly.  


Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: Methuen on January 09, 2022, 07:41:58 PM
I had to behave, I had to obey her, I could not say anything to her that may be seen as "talking back" yet she could rage, act out, - and no consequences.  
So this makes me think of the time about a year ago when my mother wanted to make sauerkraut with 2 of her friends, and asked me to help (they're all in their 80's).  That day went fine.  A week later, she asked me to can her kraut, so I said I would, but I told her I was going to let mine ferment longer (generally 3-4 weeks is normal).  She flipped a _______ gasket.  Out the blue, she screamed "don't you dare talk to me like that!"  When I tried to calm her down, she hung up on me.  Like you say, no consequences for them.  Abuse for us.  Fair from their point of view.  :(  Then she gave me the silent treatment for about two weeks.  From my perspective, the silent treatment is like a vacation.


Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: GaGrl on January 09, 2022, 10:21:22 PM
Methuen, I have much to say, but I need to post tomorrow.

For now,do will say,v was in a different place -- the second generation of BPD (like your daughter)...

Yet, I have the experience of BPD traits at the same time as personal care -- bathing, shampooing, and adult diapering.


Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: missing NC on January 09, 2022, 10:55:56 PM
Hi Methuen,

Given the demands that you have shouldered for so many years, your longing for space and freedom is understandable.  Further, the wanting to get a BPD family member out of your head is all too familiar to me.

A few thoughts occurred to me that may or may not be useful and workable.  You can get a Google voice # for free.  The part she may not like is that the caller has to give their name. But the useful feature is that texts are sent to your phone separately from your regular texts and to whatever email you attach to the Google #. So you could give family members or a virtual assistant access to the account have them respond or just screen messages and notify you if something is truly important.  If she is looking for attention, you could have a "friend of the family" (virtual assistant) text chatty messages (or photos or interesting headlines or video clips) with her every day for a few bucks an hour.  There are also au pairs for seniors, but again I realize that's tricky given your mom's personality. 

I'm glad you are continuing to practice self care, but I know that has limitations.  It sounds like you need some form of respite.  I wonder if a caregiver support group for participants with parents in the early stages of dementia (which is often characterized by emotional dysregulation) might be useful for support or ideas.   

Wishing you an easier 2022. 


Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: Goldcrest on January 10, 2022, 12:46:47 AM
Hi Methuen, I haven't read all the replies to what you have written so may well be saying the same stuff...but...I really relate as I am experiencing similar with my mother since my father died. It seems she has latched on to me as her primary carer and mother figure and at times I feel like I am being swallowed whole by her.

things that are currently helping me.

I did see the idea about spamming texts - a good one as I have the same issues with twice daily voicemails which I either delete or save (as a kind of validating evidence because they can be so nuts). I can delete a voicemail and miss nothing in its contents because she will report the same bitchy stories to me when I phone.

I also found writing stuff down in a bullet form each day about her behaviour helpful. Again a sort of validating exercise to help separate me from her and see it all for what it is. To get it out of my head. Actively pulling myself out of rumination has helped too.

There is an excellent Dr Ramani video on rumination and how to break out of it. It's still a work in progress, just this morning I was fretting about making sure I wake before she does because I know if she doesn't wake to a text from me the vengeful feelings in her will kick off. I find watching YouTube videos about BPD/NPD most days is a good way of keeping me above the water.

With your Therapist I guess your T might say that your frustration with her lack of response is where the work is. I get really irritated at times with my T because I have this constant feeling that she simply doesn't really get it and I guess unless you have grown up with mothers like ours how could you really know how deeply they have messed with our heads and all the nuances of the interactions - the hidden meaning-  is something only we are programmed to respond to. We are on a journey of de-programming like I guess someone from a cult might have to do on getting out.

I'm so sorry you are dealing with this but I want you to know that you sharing it on here helps me and others so thank you for that. It resonates and I get it.


Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: Goldcrest on January 10, 2022, 12:55:58 AM
Methuen further to my last comment about your therapist, can you tell your therapist that you are frustrated. I know I find this hard but the very act of being open and honest in a safe space is something we never were able to do with our mothers. Maybe your T simply can't think of how to help you but opening up a discussion around your need of her to parent? direct? might be illuminating, like I said where the work is.


Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: Riv3rW0lf on January 10, 2022, 04:52:14 AM
Hi again Methuen !

I am assuming you are using iMessages? I found this article that will tell you how to mute all texts from a contact: https://www.imore.com/how-mute-block-and-report-imessage-spam-iphone-and-ipad#mute

So that you won't even hear a quack ! lol

Also, I don't know how spiritually inclined you are, or if more Freudian/rational, nor what your beliefs are, but maybe you would like to try something else, to see how your body and mind react? What I mean is, my father told me about some therapies or seminars where you don't need to remember things to "free your energy". He believes that mind and body are just one and that feeling stuck sometimes can be because a point of energy, from trauma or other, is stuck and the conscious mind can do nothing about it.

I think there are some therapies approaches to allow unblocking unconscious thinking, without having to clearly remember. Like Eidetic Imagery, I think works this way but I can ask him more details if you'd like. Eidetic is what my father's wife, who is a licensed psychologist, work with and probably the one I will be trying when I move back. It doesn't mean you can't keep seeing your T if you like her, but maybe a different approach might help you get passed the "road blockage" you seem to have in front of you right now.

Hugs


Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: Cat Familiar on January 10, 2022, 11:29:27 AM
This thread is so reminiscent of what I experienced dealing with my mother as she started down the road of dementia.

Hair? Yuck. Even as a kid I couldn’t stand touching my mother’s hair. There was a smell, even when it was clean that was so unpleasant to me. I felt guilty that I didn’t want to brush it for her, but yuck…

I was very reluctant to put my mother into a facility as her abilities for self care declined. There was no possibility for her to have a separate room, and the director told me that residents like having a roommate. “Not my mom, I thought.” But it had gotten to the point where it was dangerous letting her continue to live in her house.

To my surprise, she was delighted to be living around a group of other demented women. When I would go to visit her, she barely noticed me, as she would be carrying on talking to a group who looked at her with rapt attention. It was the happiest I’d seen her in years.

You might think of institutionalizing her sooner rather than later. So many places have assisted living facilities that can be ramped up as abilities fail. It was a wonderful decision and the place I chose had great people working there who were very kind. I could go there at any time of the day and every time I did, I saw staff hugging the residents (not a great thing now in the Covid era) and treating them so kindly.


Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: Methuen on January 10, 2022, 02:33:10 PM
at times I feel like I am being swallowed whole by her.
Exactly my words to my husband.  To paraphrase, it is like the terror of being eaten alive: swallowed whole.  In their mind and their needs, our purpose is to "serve their needs".  It makes sense that we feel like we are being swallowed whole.  We don't feel "free" to have our own life, pursue our own interests, have our own ideas.  To take it one step further, when we attempt to be "ourselves" or put up too many boundaries, or "miss one phone call", we are terrible people and don't love them.  I live with constant fear of my mother, and the things she has said and done to me in the past.  But people who see me interacting with her would probably think her and I have a great relationship.  I do what I have to do to navigate a relationship with her, live my own values, and somehow...take care of myself?

I do write things down, but mostly to document the changes in her cognition and physical ability to care for herself, to advocate for more support in our medical system.  Document document document for evidence evidence evidence.  Ever get the feeling that nobody believes you, or cares, or if they do, things move too slowly, adding to the crisis?  This morning her doctor scored her 22/30 on a cognitive test which indicates a "mild cognitive impairment".  It's definitely not feeling "mild" to H and I.  One day a month ago she couldn't remember her address.  She has forgotten her grandchildren's birthdays.  This morning she couldn't remember the name of the apples she likes.  There thousands of examples.  Combine that with undiagnosed mental illness, and how exactly do I get help from a public health care system that doesn't see the problem except in 20 min appointments where mom pulls herself together and rises to perform and show how well she is doing?  I have a follow up appointment with her doctor to illuminate him on some more on her day to day challenges - the things she's not going to tell him, as well as how all this is affecting me, her only caregiver.

Swallowed whole is what it feels like.

Thanks Riverwolf. That was the same article I found, which led me to the "quack"! :)  The enmeshed part of me wants to know when the quack "sounds", because there is a chance mom has fallen again.  My T yesterday was shocked when she asked "wouldn't your mom call 911 for help?"  H and I looked at each other and both said "no" simultaneously.  T said "she should wear a lifeline around her neck so she can push a button for emerg services".  I replied: "she has one but refuses to wear it".  T didn't know what to say.

I acknowledge that these are her choices and she should live with the consequences.  However, the reality is that we have all been trained to feel guilty, and how to "unprogram" a lifetime of that?  Letting go of learned guilt is what Goldcrest was talking about.  She said its probably like leaving a cult.  Who on this forum can honestly say they have let go of the "guilt" we have all been trained to feel, and are "healed" from feeling this guilt?  So at least if I hear a "quack" on my phone, I can control "when" to check the message, but I still know it's there to check at a time convenient for me.  I can't anticipate exactly what it would feel like to learn that mom had a fall and more broken bones, and I didn't know because I had her texts silenced.  Yes, the consequences were of her own doing and choosing, but I still have to live with the feelings afterwards.  However, having said all that, I'm not well right now.  So maybe I will have to silence that quack yet.  

At the moment, she knows something is up.  H took her to her Dr appt this am, and is getting her groceries.  They connect the dots right?  She was asking D24 about "what was going on" yesterday with "mom and dad".

Missing NC thank you for the suggestions.  I am asking about a "caregivers support group" today.  I have never heard of one in my area, but I will ask this afternoon in an appointment I have with an elderly services consultant.  The google voice # would only stir the witches brew and introduce another element of chaos I think.  She had trouble remembering what kind of apple she wanted H to buy this morning. But I love the brainstorming.  Please everyone keep the ideas coming, because I am not in a good place to be able to think of them myself right now.

This thread is so reminiscent of what I experienced dealing with my mother as she started down the road of dementia.
Cat Fam, thank you for this.  A cat scan from a mild stroke was read by a visiting neurologist in emerg back in 2015, and he looked up and as an aside (to the convo about the stroke) stated "she has binswangers".  I didn't know what that was but I wrote it down.  The report has been forgotten about.  I reminded her doctor a few years ago, but my mom has had so many tests and is so complicated, that I think that report just got lost in the digital pile.  We KNOW my mom has dementia, because we have seen all the day to day changes over the years.  To a doctor, it's just a number 22/30 which translates to mild cognitive impairment and  "not bad" for her age.

I am curious?  Why were you reluctant to put your mother into a facility?

We have seen the facility here, and believe my mom would absolutely thrive, as you describe yours did.  However, my mom was offered a spot on an assisted living waiting list 2 years ago, and refused it.  :( She was mad as  :cursing: . That offer came after an assessment through our health care system.  Mom has told me numerous times "she will commit suicide" before she goes to "one of those places".  The kicker?  She used to be a nurse.  She is guided by nothing but her borderline personality (emotions) and distorted thinking.

But Cat Fam, thanks for replying to my thread, and validating what I am going through.

In addition to wondering why you were reluctant to move her into a facility (was she BPD?), I am wondering how willingly she went?

I live in Canada, and until the public health care system deems she is incompetent to make her own decisions, she will continue to live independently and I am put in a position of having to support someone who has burned me out.  There is a real reluctance to certify someone as incompetent when it comes to making decisions around personal and health care.  The reasons could be debated.  They are ethical, fiscal, political, and pragmatic.  It doesn't help me that she's undiagnosed borderline (fits the DMS criteria) on top of all the other mental and physical health problems.

Thanks everyone.  I am so grateful for the support. :hug:







Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: Couscous on January 10, 2022, 02:47:27 PM
If you’ve been able to “train” your mother to not text you at night then I’m wondering if you might be able to explain to her that as part of a new stress reduction program you’re starting you’ve decided to turn off all notifications on your phone so that you aren’t being constantly interrupted by ‘dings’ all day long, and then to ask her to call you if she falls.

Another thought I had was to find some kind of game that you can play with her on your devices, like scrabble. That might fill her need for connection with you.



Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: zachira on January 10, 2022, 03:01:18 PM
The public health system is failing you miserably. Would you possibly consider doing a consult with a lawyer who is well versed in elder law and on how to protect caregivers who are abused by a family member beyond the caregiver's capacity to be able to adequately take care of himself/herself? If you do this, you will likely have to interview several lawyers and get referrals to find a lawyer who has the experience, qualifications, and empathy to really help you. From my experience, getting the right lawyer involved can do wonders, and the fear of getting sued can force those who are supposedly only doing their job to take a second look. So sad about all you have to deal with. I can't tell you how many times I have told myself, there is no way I can heal or properly take care of myself until I can establish healthier boundaries with my many abusive family members and their flying monkeys. You are courageous and keep looking for solutions. Know that as long as you keep trying, there are possible solutions and some light at the end of the tunnel, though it may not seem like it right now.


Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: Cat Familiar on January 10, 2022, 06:55:31 PM
Yep she was BPD and I dealt with threats like, “I’m going to get on the next bus and go home.” This was after I sold her house 600 miles away and moved her into a house I bought in a gated community a few miles from where I live. She probably would have tried to get on a local city bus and tell them to take her “home” and where she would have ended up— who knows?

I called Adult Protective Services because I wanted it documented that she was threatening to run away.

Why I was hesitant to place her in a facility, I guess it was because I felt guilty. I wanted to explore all possible options to give her her *freedom* before committing her. I waited too long.


Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: missing NC on January 10, 2022, 07:22:57 PM
I agree with Zachira's observation that some professional advice may be helpful and wonder if a Patient Advocate/Health Care Consultant may be of use.  I am not personally familiar with Canada's advocacy options but in the US advocates for things like filing for disability or getting a child the appropriate special education accommodations are very knowledgeable and effective and quite a bit cheaper than attorneys. 

The description from Canadian Health Care Advocates Inc sounds like what I am envisioning:
"Health/Patient Advocates are experienced health care professionals who are passionate about supporting patients and families with serious and complex illnesses, injuries, and end-of-life concerns. They help them navigate our complex and fragmented Canadian healthcare system by empowering patients and their loved ones so no one falls through the cracks."


Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: Couscous on January 10, 2022, 08:22:42 PM
Here is a really cool article about emotional contagion and a brilliant strategy that uses visualization for reducing one’s susceptibility to absorbing negative emotions from others. I think it really underscores the importance of limiting contact with pwBPD. I think we can extrapolate that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, so muting text messages and sending emails to one’s spam folder seems like an essential first step to maintaining one’s emotional equilibrium as much as is humanly possible.

(And for any skeptics, I just tried the arm test on my H without explaining what I was doing and it totally worked! )

https://www.oprah.com/spirit/martha-beck-the-sponge-people


Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: Cat Familiar on January 10, 2022, 09:03:52 PM
Couscous, fabulous article! Thanks for posting that link.


Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: Riv3rW0lf on January 11, 2022, 05:24:15 AM
Yes, very interesting article Couscous ! I think we can all agree being raised by BPD really made us sponges ! It's nice to read I wasn't crazy, it happened numerous time when I could actually notice it wasn't my emotion but the person who was with me. I will try the arm test with H later ! :)


Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: Notwendy on January 11, 2022, 06:18:56 AM
Great article! Thanks.

I have heard of the idea of "sponge" when it comes to picking up on others' emotions. It might be a sense we sharpened growing up with an unpredictable parent. I can tell when my mother's moods are changing- I can see her cheeks flush and her eyes change. We learned to "read" her feelings well.

My mother also seems to have an uncanny ability to "read" people but she's not a sponge for feelings- she projects them. Its as if she has some kind of armor around her and they just bounce off it.

I have a memory from my teen age years where I was at a friend's house and she was having an argument with her parents. I actually empathized with the parents. There were a lot of hurt feelings. I came home quite shaken up about it and told my parents about it. They looked at me with blank expressions. I could tell they didn't understand why an argument that had nothing to do with me was so upsetting, but the hurt feelings in the situation.

I also recall a time in college where I went out to dinner with a friend. It wasn't a romantic situation, just a guy friend. I recall after dinner feeling emotionally drained- even though there wasn't any drama and he was a nice guy. It was more about the emotional energy.

Neither of these two memories are anything out of the ordinary and not even memorable, except I remember them because of how I felt afterwards.

I know I can't read minds, but I think learning to sense emotions was a skill I learned as a child, to try to anticipate my mother's moods.
 


Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: Cat Familiar on January 11, 2022, 09:26:07 AM
What’s helped me not fall automatically into *psychic spongedom* has been embracing my inner narcissist.

Think about it—all of us have tendencies to be self-absorbed and selfish. It’s a survival mechanism for humans. When taken to an extreme, and not participating in the *social contract*, then it becomes pathological.

Unfortunately many of us who grew up with a BPD parent have been trained not to look out for our own interests.

It takes mindfulness to try to regain the balance here.


Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: Goldcrest on January 11, 2022, 10:15:08 AM
Methuen, I don't know much about you, only what I have learn't from your posts but I get how it must feel impossible at the moment and every strategy going doesn't protect you from the constant feeling of being imprisoned by your mothers need, that you can't walk away. You know you can't win, it's like a maze with no exit.

You know you have to limit contact wherever possible. Self-protection mode, find precious head space wherever you can. I hear you about the texts, about worrying that she might have fallen... can you have your partner check the spam folder, so he reads them and lets you know if their is anything you need to attend to? All that said I do get it because I am just at the start of this with my mother (dad died in October) she lives 200 miles away and has cancer. My brother is in Germany and the FOG is building.

It's really tough for you. I'm sorry that you are going through this  :hug:


Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: Methuen on January 12, 2022, 12:31:20 AM
I can't tell you how many times I have told myself, there is no way I can heal or properly take care of myself until I can establish healthier boundaries with my many abusive family members and their flying monkeys. You are courageous and keep looking for solutions. Know that as long as you keep trying, there are possible solutions and some light at the end of the tunnel, though it may not seem like it right now.
I can totally relate to the highlighted part.  Thanks for the encouragement in the second second part. :hug:  As for consulting a lawyer, I totally hear you.  I'm not sure if I'm quite there yet...  Missing NC suggested a health care advocate/consultant, which is similar, and this idea is percolating at the back of my mind.  I have never heard of such a thing, but I am going to look into it.
I called Adult Protective Services because I wanted it documented that she was threatening to run away.
 What was her reaction to you after you called APS?  
Why I was hesitant to place her in a facility, I guess it was because I felt guilty... I waited too long.
What made it too long?  I'm trying to figure out what the lines in the sand are about what is the "appropriate time".  

Couscous that article was enlightening.  It inspired me to look into it some more which led to more reading.  Lots to think about.

What’s helped me not fall automatically into *psychic spongedom* has been embracing my inner narcissist.
This hit me like Newton's apple.  I'm trying to picture "inner narcissist", but can't.  Can you share an example of an inner narcissist?
it must feel impossible at the moment and every strategy going doesn't protect you from the constant feeling of being imprisoned by your mothers need, that you can't walk away. You know you can't win, it's like a maze with no exit.
 Exactly.  

Yesterday, H and I had a long conversation with the local elderly services consultant.  Her job is to assess mom, and work with the team to determine the appropriate level of care based on mom's "capacity".  If she has "capacity", it means it is ok for her to make her own bad decisions.  We gave concrete and objective examples of changes in mom's abilities to care for herself (eg poop on the toilet seat).   She also knows I am afraid of mom, and why.  Since I am mom's only caregiver, and since I am burned out, I shared because I thought it could help mom get services (if they know I am burned out).  The problem is also that mom can refuse "said" services, thereby ensuring the "chains" around my ankle to hers are securely in place.

So I've been thinking.  By supporting mom to the degree H and I have been doing because we are good and caring people, is it possible that she has manipulated us to be her enablers?  Inotherwords, have we done this to ourselves?

I don't know the answer.  I know we do an extraordinary amount.  Far and above more than any of our friends have had to do for their elderly parents.  We can't think of anyone we know who has a parent who "operates" like my mother, or burdens their children in the ways mine does.  And what our friends do to support their elderly parents, they do because of genuine desire to help and because of love, and not because of fear, obligation or the guilt we all know so well.

So, I've set up a diary to record the date, the time and duration, the place (eg her house, the bank, the doctors office), what we did (including checking her mail since she won't step outside her front door to check the mailbox right beside her door because she's such a fall risk), and any notes about what was going on with mom.  It's only the second day, and we're already shocked.  We're already up to 10 hours, which included 4 hours of shovelling snow today because we were called by home care that they couldn't safely use her driveway (which was true). Maybe seeing the records in print will help us assess what WE can change, and whether it is possible WE have allowed ourselves to be manipulated into being her enablers.  I think we need to assess if we need to withdraw some of what we are doing.  The consequence of this is terrifying. But, as long as we are giving the level of support we give, the system sees her as managing quite well because she has resources and knows how to use them.  If she can do that, she has capacity, which means she can refuse public health supports.  Catch 22?  

I'm on my 3rd day of NC with mom (I'm on a "break"). So H has been doing all the heavy lifting in those 3 days...

I also had to ask myself, "what am I most afraid of with my mom"?

Answer: after everything I've done to support her my entire life and all that I've invested into the relationship, I'm afraid of complete and total rejection by her (and her vengeful words of projection that I have heard so many times).  I don't want to be rejected by my mother.  I think that's it, but I'm not totally sure if that's it.

What makes others here "afraid" of their mother?






 




Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: Goldcrest on January 12, 2022, 01:24:27 AM
Hey Methuen, the question "What makes others here "afraid" of their mother?" is a really interesting one to me and I look forward to seeing what others say.

For me, as long as I can hold on to my anger towards her then I don't feel a constant fear of her anymore, especially after I really lost it with her after dad died. It felt liberating. I know though that when the waif turns up and she is crying like a child I am VERY programmed to feel pity to that facet of her. I fear that because I become weak around that persona.

My biggest fear though, when holding boundaries, is what she says to others about me, my ego can't cope with being slagged off and painted as doing nothing for her. I do SO much holding for her, the constant emotional support I give and even just Grey Rock takes and inordinate amount of strength and discipline. I have such a horrid fear of injustice and I know this is because I have been treated terribly by her. I treat her with such incredible consideration, despite years of abuse. I simply can't get my head around her telling other people how useless I am. It kills me. I really wish I didn't care but I do.


Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: Notwendy on January 12, 2022, 06:55:11 AM
What makes others here "afraid" of their mother?



I don't think the reason for being afraid of her is logical in current times,  but our feelings aren't always logical.  She is not a danger to me now.

But emotionally, she knows how to be hurtful and she has deliberately chosen to do so and I know she is capable of being intentionally cruel when she is angry- not just in the present.

As long as I can recall, I have been afraid of her. This is how she had control over us growing up. I often didn't know what made her angry but somehow she'd blame it on me.

Even though I can logically know she can't be hurtful to me now that I am an adult, I think the fear of her is just a part of how I see her.




Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: zachira on January 12, 2022, 09:43:08 AM
What makes me afraid of my entire family is the rejection, feeling worthless, and not having any real connections to anybody. I am slowly working my way out of needing the family's love and approval I will never get, and it is a long painful process. I see you doing the same with  your mother. There are no words to describe how it feels to be so unappreciated and abused after all you have done for your mother. Whatever you decide to do, there is emotional pain involved. Keeping a diary of all you are doing, is a great idea. You now recognize that what you are doing is way beyond what your friends are doing for their mothers, who are people they care for and love, and looking for relief. Having your husband step in for you so you can be no contact surely is giving you some welcome relief and is not something he can keep doing. Surely, something will happen that will change how much time you spend caring for your mother, whether it is you deciding not to devote so much time to taking care of her, your mother having to go to a nursing home because home health care isn't possible anymore, or your mother passing away. One thing is for sure, things do not stay the same way forever, and there is always change. I am keeping you in my thoughts and hoping some changes will come your way that bring some long awaited welcome relief.


Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: Riv3rW0lf on January 12, 2022, 10:46:14 AM
Why am I afraid of my mother...

I am not so sure I feel scared anymore. I think ... My mother has a way to look sane every time I distance myself. Like she texted me this morning saying : "you must be so stressed about your move. By the way when is the date? You must know by now." And part of me know she only wants the date to plan her visit of her grandchildren because I have come to realize that... I don't think she loves ME. But part of me hopes...

So... Not so much that I am scared of her. More that I am scared I will let myself become blind again and let her manipulate me again. Because part of me will always love her and look for validation from her. There is nothing I can do about that part. Another part of me understand her pain, where she comes from, and part of me wants to help her. HELP, not rescue. I worked a lot on myself and I am proud that I can now answer her from a place of love, albeit after a LOT of meditation and time thinking. I can give validation to myself, but part of me will still always hope one day she sees me for who I am.

So... I am not scared of her, I am scared of myself. Of my own capacity to be blind to my own flaws when it comes to my relationship with her.

I don't like who I become when it comes to her. Right now for exemple, I am trying to figure out how to answer her very simple text. I am not scared of the backlash, I am scared of the underlying message I might put in it. I am tuned to her, but she is also tuned to me. She just knows when to text, what wording to use, and she knows when I am detached, and she knows how to lure me back in.

I am not scared of her, I am scare of who I become when I am in constant relationship with her. I get impatient, I ruminate, I stop playing with my children, I stop listening to my husband, I get in my head and I can't seem to shake it. This is when we are on bad terms. When on "good terms", I feel obligated to call her every day, to answer all her questions, all her texts as soon as possible. I give her all my attention, even if my daughter is requesting it, because it's the only way I get some sense of being validated by her, she doesn't say it but at least she is "happy". She takes so much more space than her texts. Even if she doesn't mean to.

I didn't care last time what she said to me when she got mad. I cared that she didn't see ME. Still today, she doesn't see me, she doesn't see what she did to me. She never will. And to be seen, I have to become someone else, and I hate what I become for her. Even my accomplishments, she made her own by saying she must have been a good mother, seeing what I became. She wasn't proud of ME, she was proud of HER, when truth is, I owe what I am today to myself and to my husband actually. I started my own business because he believed in me, and he gave me so much strength. He is somehow always able to give me back the confidence she robbed me from when I was young and vulnerable.

I want to cut her off, but I can't, because I know she hurt, and I just can't close my eyes to that pain she carries with her. I am scared of what I will become if I cut her off, and I am scared of what I become when we are in constant relationship. It's like... I can't be myself, no matter the option. So hard boundaries seem the lesser evil. And distance.

...

That was deep, even for me lol


Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: Riv3rW0lf on January 12, 2022, 11:15:53 AM
I do think it is possible you let yourself be manipulated in becoming her enabler. It happens to me all the time, which is why I have her under "spam" now, and why I am trying to condition myself to put hard boundaries in place.

You know.. even if your mother is elderly : it is HER decisions to not get professional help... And you have nothing to be ashamed of. If she falls : it is on HER, not on you. And maybe it would be a godsend... If she falls, then the hospital can force her to go in remission into a nursing home. It happened to a lady we cared for. She broke her hips and had to stay 6 months in a nursing home. When the 6 months was over, she decided to go back to her house but I am pretty sure at that point, the family had legal leverage they chose not to use.

Not saying I want her to fall, just saying : there is nothing you can  personnally do about it. And it is ok to tell her: "Mom, if you don't want professional help, you will be on your own, because I cannot keep doing what I am currently doing. I love you, but I am done."

Or is a part of you, like me, scared of yourself? Scared of admitting your own limits to her? Scared that this very action might change you somehow? I might be off, but I think whatever emotion we feel tells us more about ourselves than the person our emotion is directed at...



Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: Couscous on January 12, 2022, 12:49:47 PM
I’ve actually come to prefer the term “overfunctioning” as opposed to enabling.

My well-founded fear of separating from my mother and having boundaries is that it will lead to her “discarding” me due to her no longer having any use for me. After my mother remarried when I was 18 she left the country I didn’t hear from her for three years. After I tracked her down I decided that the best strategy for me was to make myself indispensable to her so that she would need me too much to ever disappear on me like that again. And so began my long career of being the overfunctioner in our relationship.

This pattern continued until I had a rude awakening two years ago when I finally understood that being needed isn’t the same thing as being loved.



 


Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: Cat Familiar on January 12, 2022, 01:27:14 PM
What was her reaction to you after you called APS?   What made it too long?  I'm trying to figure out what the lines in the sand are about what is the "appropriate time".  

She was irritated that the *strange lady* was in her house asking questions. Soon forgotten. As per APS suggestion, we started the “Friendly Visitor” program with a very nice elderly lady who came by a few times to talk with my mother. Mom was consistently rude to her, so that didn’t work out too well.

Waited too long? Well, she started doing some behaviors that became more problematic. She stole a tree in a 15 gallon pot from a neighbor, which involved law enforcement, and me, to explain things to everyone.

Then she mistook the lawn chair for a toilet.

I’d clean her house and she’d disassemble things randomly, like putting a lamp shade in the kitchen, strewing peanut shells all over the house, generally tearing things apart.

On a very hot day, she forgot where she lived and sat outside the house next door (which was for sale), thinking she’d locked herself out.

She forgot a teakettle on the stove that had a plastic handle and started a fire.

There’s more, but that’s a good sampling.

I'm trying to picture "inner narcissist", but can't.  Can you share an example of an inner narcissist?  Exactly.  

Remember that Pat Benetar song, “I’m gonna harden my heart”? It’s sort of like that. Instead of feeling, “OMG, this is so awful that you are losing your abilities and are frightened and vulnerable,” I come from a thinking place, “OK, this is unworkable as is. What can I do to change things?”

Or, remembering the times she tried to manipulate me through shaming me or trying to make me feel guilty, I’d think, “Wow, that used to work on me. Sucks to think that a mother would do that to a child.” Then I’d think, I know you have the ability to choose how you behave toward me. If you want my company, you will be motivated to be pleasant. If you choose otherwise, then I’ll leave and I will speak to you tomorrow.”

You are definitely enabling her to stay independent of the system. Can you think of not doing certain things that could let her *fail* in a safe way? Recording all that you do is a good step and could be helpful to show that she’s not capable of managing on her own.

Do you think that your mother is unaware of being unable to live independently? I know my mother felt shame about no longer being capable of taking care of herself, since she was so proud of her independence.

Really, if you called her bluff, not that you’d want to do that, and said, “OK Mom, you don’t like me or appreciate my help. I’m done. You can figure it out for yourself,”  that would likely strike fear deep in her heart. She needs you. She knows that, and probably is very angry about it.





 





Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: pursuingJoy on January 12, 2022, 03:01:17 PM
This thread is incredible.

So, I've set up a diary to record the date, the time and duration, the place (eg her house, the bank, the doctors office), what we did

It's only the second day, and we're already shocked.  We're already up to 10 hours 

I think we need to assess if we need to withdraw some of what we are doing.  The consequence of this is terrifying. But, as long as we are giving the level of support we give, the system sees her as managing quite well because she has resources and knows how to use them.  If she can do that, she has capacity, which means she can refuse public health supports.

I also had to ask myself, "what am I most afraid of with my mom"?

Answer: after everything I've done to support her my entire life and all that I've invested into the relationship, I'm afraid of complete and total rejection by her (and her vengeful words of projection that I have heard so many times).  I don't want to be rejected by my mother.  I think that's it, but I'm not totally sure if that's it.


M, just want to lift up the hard work you're doing here. Wow.

I don't have much to add, just want to say heartfelt thanks to all who have shared. If nothing else, we can share a blanket in the cold and let each other know we're not alone.  :heart:


Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: Harri on January 12, 2022, 06:15:47 PM
Agree that this is a good thread!

Methuen, I think you have had a lot of great advice and only have bits and perhaps tangentials to share.  One thing that strikes me as I read posts here and in your thread is some of the self messaging that happens.  One of the best things I ever did to help aid in differentiation from my mom and, more importantly, help my own coping ability, was to change the words I used to describe my feelings.  Now I am not talking about when venting and trying to get to the bottom of a particular issue in therapy or with your husband etc, but rather, those words we use to describe *to us* the difficulties we have in interacting.  Phrases like "I can't deal with this" or "she is manipulating me" or anything like that *that I say to myself about my own abilities* were disempowering and emotionally crippling for me.  Re-frame your reality to one that is more empowering.  Change your language and change your thoughts?  

I guess what I am saying is to stop using  emotionally inflammatory or disempowering self talk when dealing with these issues.

Rather than focus on the fact that you *have to* take care of your mom (or whatever else) change it up to, for example, "I choose to do this as it is a reflection of the person I am and the person I want to be".  The first is self-defeating, the second is more empowering, and I think more accurate to you.  

At the same time, working through your fear of your mom (great insight there) and her reactions will be tough but vital.   To me, it seems like separation of self is what is needed here.  She can get angry, stop talking to you, disown you, etc and you *will* survive it.  It will be sad and hard and very uncomfortable but you will survive with hard work on changing your self talk language, and radical acceptance.  We can't do much about our family members enmeshment with us until we get control of our part in the enmeshment.  Trained from birth or not, we do have the power to change.  

Will it work 100%?  No, especially not if you think you will not feel sad, angry, hurt, etc.  I can't say for sure but your T might have been getting at that point when she said there are no good solutions.  Lots of times, that is a true statement and that is where radical acceptance comes in.  My T's have said it to me time and again.  Same thing here on the board.  It is true.  Maybe not what we want to hear but accurate.

Your mom is who she is.  Chances of her changing are nil, yet it seems, to me, that there is still some hope there inside you.  Perhaps hope that she will see you as you are, the person worthy of respect, love, appreciation, etc when you do these things for her.  It will not happen (well, chances are extremely low).  She will continue to be who she is, along with even more changes due to dementia, making things even more difficult.  We can't change things up until we accept this.  That does not man being a doormat, accepting abuse or anything like that.  That is NOT what I am talking about here.  I simply say to focus on you, your well being and health.  That may mean no contact for a while or forever, or very limited contact or controlled contact.  The choice is yours.  You have the power to choose just as she has her own power to choose how she responds.  Her choice is on her, not you.

My mom disowned me when I first "abandoned" her by moving out of the family home at around the age of 38.  It was devastating but I survived it.  Took a good year and a half to stop dissociating about it (and i mean all day long dissociation).  Part of what helped was to tap into my anger, not to blast her or tell her off (tho that did happen on occasion) but rather to take that anger, hurt, resentment and put it into a more workable bundle.  It helped me focus on what was right for me.  

Her actions are her choice.  Yes they can hurt but we survived worse with far less skills and maturity right?  We can do this.

I have seen you grow over your time here and have been cheering you on.  Lets change things up a bit.   :hug:

Just in case none of this applies or resonates, disregard.  Just some random thoughts here.


Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: Couscous on January 12, 2022, 11:49:27 PM
I am beginning to understand much better how the biggest challenge that we face as adult children of BPD mothers is not boundaries; it’s separating from our mothers, like Harri alluded to. More accurately: it’s the prospect of separating which causes us anticipatory anxiety.

The following article, even though it’s about fear of flying, explains the issue better than anything else I have ever read about this topic. :caution: It’s a difficult read but the good news is that this issue can be overcome. Here’s an excerpt:

 But anticipatory anxiety remains a challenge, for the very thought of doing something independently causes a replay of rejection by the mother—beginning at 18 months, but no doubt lasting throughout childhood, and extending into the present—and that powerfully remembered rejection and abandonment of his real self causes the person to experience, or go to the edge of experiencing, almost unbearable distress.

As this almost unbearable distress descends upon the person who is trying to operate as an individual, he is likely to abandon his attempt to operate as an individual...

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/conquer-fear-flying/201312/borderline-personality-disorder-and-anticipatory-anxiety


Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: Goldcrest on January 13, 2022, 12:47:10 AM
What Harri has written below really resonated with me in terms of where I am at at the moment in trying to separate and make peace with the possibilities that I can and will walk away if it all gets too much. What that might look like and feel like for me to press the big red button. I also agree with Harri about the self talk and keeping it strong and focus on your strength "I can do this, I am a survivor". I had a triggering call with my mother yesterday but rather than become tearful (old response) I felt pissed off and decide it will not ruin my day. I know all this is easily said but you are deeply involved with your Mum right now but I think the work is to start pulling out and start delegating chores and disappointing her. What would happen if all your family weren't available to clear the drive of snow? How would that be made to happen otherwise?

Excerpt
At the same time, working through your fear of your mom (great insight there) and her reactions will be tough but vital.   To me, it seems like separation of self is what is needed here.  She can get angry, stop talking to you, disown you, etc and you *will* survive it.  It will be sad and hard and very uncomfortable but you will survive with hard work on changing your self talk language, and radical acceptance.  We can't do much about our family members enmeshment with us until we get control of our part in the enmeshment.  Trained from birth or not, we do have the power to change.  


Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: Goldcrest on January 13, 2022, 12:58:09 AM
Couscous, that article is brilliant. Gosh that all makes sense. The things I have cancelled in my life or avoided because I just felt too terrified at the eleventh hour to do them.


Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: zachira on January 13, 2022, 10:28:17 AM
Couscous,
Thank you for another great article!


Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: Riv3rW0lf on January 13, 2022, 11:08:44 AM
Thank you for the article Couscous !

I thought of my brother a lot reading that... And then I had flashbacks of the time just before I met my husband. I spent one year living by myself in an apartment before I met him, and I was a big emotional mess. I remember once after some guy rejected me, that I literally sweat blood as I was having a huge emotional meltdown.

I was uncomfortable going to the grocery store by myself. Anything that I had to do by myself, going to the gym, etc. came with so much stress and anxiety, and it took an incredible amount of willpower. I ended up smoking pot, a lot, to decrease my anxiety. And running... Running close to 50km a week, 10km a night. Just running to get that big endorphine rush and tire myself out to stop the thinking. 

It's scary to admit it but, sometimes I wonder if I didn't just fill myself with the strength of my husband. And if he was to ever leave me, would I just revert back to the old me? 

I sometimes feel my sense of self is still lacking. I wonder if I will ever be able to fill myself... By myself.

I don't mean to rob your post here Methuen ! Just a lot to thought on. It makes sense that being rejected for being who we are would lead to a poor sense of self. And a poor sense of self would generate anxiety when needing to do things independantly, because we might tend to fill ourselves with the ideas and emotions of the people around us as opposed to filling ourselves with ourselves. Which explains, for me, my feeling scared of being close to uBPDm (because it means I fill myself of her), of feeling scared of cutting her off (I don't think I know who I really am without my husband).

Maybe the road to find ourselves and truly heal is to really accept our fear and move past it by finally truly owning who we are and to accept the inevitable rejection from our uBPDm ? And be at peace with it.


Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: Methuen on January 14, 2022, 07:53:56 PM
Even my accomplishments, she made her own by saying she must have been a good mother"
My mom has said the exact same thing, many times.  It's just freaky how our BPD mother's are like a cookie cut from the same flawed cutter.

I want to cut her off, but I can't, because I know she hurt, and I just can't close my eyes to that pain she carries with her. I am scared of what I will become if I cut her off, and I am scared of what I become when we are in constant relationship. It's like... I can't be myself, no matter the option. So hard boundaries seem the lesser evil. And distance.

My last in-person contact with her was a week ago.  There's still been a couple of phone calls regarding medical appointments, and texts, but not seeing her has helped me to feel a little safer.  So, like you say...distance.

I am slowly working my way out of needing the family's love and approval I will never get
Yeah.  When you stop and think about it, what a thing to have to do right?  I believed I had come to grips with not needing her love.  I've grieved it and moved on. I have "radically accepted" her for who she is. I have a lot of compassion for her because of the abuse she grew up with.  So accepting her, and having compassion, that part is good.  The problem though is that I am still figuring out how to detach from her emotionally, so that the things she says and does don't hurt.  Anyone figured that out?  Please help :help:  Zachira, you must be an incredibly strong person, because not only have you had to work on this with your mother, but also siblings.  And still you plod on, and and keep moving forward, even if it is slower than you want it to be.  What incredible resilience you must have from all this.  Thanks for your encouraging words.  You are an amazing reflective listener.

One thing that strikes me as I read posts here and in your thread is some of the self messaging that happens.  One of the best things I ever did to help aid in differentiation from my mom and, more importantly, help my own coping ability, was to change the words I used to describe my feelings... those words we use to describe *to us* the difficulties we have in interacting.  Phrases like "I can't deal with this" or "she is manipulating me" or anything like that *that I say to myself about my own abilities* were disempowering and emotionally crippling for me.  Re-frame your reality to one that is more empowering.  Change your language and change your thoughts?  Rather than focus on the fact that you *have to* take care of your mom (or whatever else) change it up to, for example, "I choose to do this as it is a reflection of the person I am and the person I want to be".  The first is self-defeating, the second is more empowering, and I think more accurate to you.  
I had to sit with this for a day.  I have to agree this is something a lot of us probably need to work on, and I'm guessing working on this should help us stop feeling like a "victim" of our mother's BPD...?  Thanks for entering the discussion, and making this point.  I needed to hear it, because I have clearly become "stuck".  If I work on changing my thoughts, maybe I can become "unstuck" and move forward.  This is sounding like I need a whole paradigm shift...

So instead of "I am trapped by my duty as a daughter to look after her insatiable and intense  and infinite and continually growing needs" (my truth), I should think/say:...  "I choose to be involved in mom's caregiving because that is who I am, but I am learning that I also need to look after myself,  and not only her"...?  I think that could work for me. It does feel more more empowering, and also includes a solution.  Let me know if that's not quite what you meant.

At the same time, working through your fear of your mom (great insight there) and her reactions will be tough but vital.   To me, it seems like separation of self is what is needed here.  She can get angry, stop talking to you, disown you, etc and you *will* survive it.  It will be sad and hard and very uncomfortable but you will survive with hard work on changing your self talk language, and radical acceptance.  We can't do much about our family members enmeshment with us until we get control of our part in the enmeshment.  Trained from birth or not, we do have the power to change.  
OK...I think I've separated my "self" from my mom quite successfully in all respects except for the emotions.  I know who I am, and what I like, and have my own belief system yada yada yada, but she still has a tight hold on my emotions.  For example, when I was recently away on winter vacation in a warm climate, she texted me the following:  "I am out of groceries".
Here are the facts:  1) She is weak and can't walk through the grocery store holding onto a cart anymore 2) She failed her driver's medical and can't drive any more 3) I do her grocery shopping 4) I don't mind doing her grocery shopping 5) She knew I was about 5000 miles away and couldn't shop for her groceries 6) She had enough groceries in her house to last her many weeks beyond my return from holiday 7) When I got back, her fridge was still full of the food I had purchased for her

So when I received that text while I was on a beach on holidays, I had an emotional reaction. What was her "intention" for sending it?   So, how do I separate from her emotionally so that I can stop having these negative reactions to her behaviors?  My reactions to her language and behaviors is a big problem for me.  So to Harri's point about "changing your thoughts and language", what would be empowering language to use after receiving that text from her, and better than my words at the time which were "why did she send me this now?" and my emotional reaction of being very irritated and frustrated?  I never ever replied to that text.  I  went for a swim in the ocean, and enjoyed the people I was with at the time. But it frustrated me then, and it still frustrates me now.  So, I have individuated from her, with the exception of emotions.

Chances of her changing are nil, yet it seems, to me, that there is still some hope there inside you.  Perhaps hope that she will see you as you are, the person worthy of respect, love, appreciation, etc when you do these things for her.  I simply say to focus on you, your well being and health.  That may mean no contact for a while or forever, or very limited contact or controlled contact.  The choice is yours.  You have the power to choose just as she has her own power to choose how she responds.  Her choice is on her, not you.
I have a confession.  Up to now I believed that changing my way of communicating and interacting with her (using validating questions, using SET, not JADEing, setting boundaries etc) would change the conflict (which it has), and make things better between her and I (which it has) but, something is still wrong. I have burned myself out and am not "well".  Her behavior has not changed.  In some ways it has intensified.  So, your quote above has helped me to see that what I have to do, "is less" for her.  In supporting her to live independently (which I was motivated to do because it was a more palatable option than living with us), I opened myself up to too much contact with her.  These days her medical needs are so intense, that I am doubting that I have it to even transport her to all her appointments, much less do her grocery shopping, her online purchases for underwear, changing her light bulbs etc.  

So I need to start "doing less" for her, to take care of myself.  Wow.  I just saw the balance beam make a shift with the weight change there.

For this to happen, I have to be OK with whatever reaction she has to that change in support.  And there it is.  

So, how do I tell her?  "Mom, we are tired and I am unwell.  I need more time to take care of myself, so I won't be able to take you to every appointment anymore.  Who else can you ask to help you?"  

Thoughts?  Feedback?








Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: zachira on January 14, 2022, 09:45:53 PM
I don't think you have to avoid feeling hurt and/or angry when your mother mistreats you. Of course, it hurts and stuffing your feelings, becoming indifferent, can lead to the feelings becoming overwhelming. From my perspective, the key is to not become emotionally overwhelmed by how your mother mistreats you, while acknowledging your feelings and processing them in small doses. I meditate nearly every day so no feeling stays with me too long before I become overwhelmed by it. I also try to move as much as I can all the parts of my body so I do not store up uncomfortable feelings. Clearly you fear your mother's reactions which could be pretty over the top when she realizes you will be doing less from now on. I would skip most of the explaining as your mother has no interest in your feelings and give her the most basic information, like so and so is coming to do ____ for you at such and such a time and date. If your mother objects, you can say something like: well I guess you won't be getting _____done as I have done everything to make this happen. I know it feels terrible to say these things and it can help to try to remind yourself that the healthy boundaries you are setting with your mother are for your benefit and hers.


Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: Riv3rW0lf on January 15, 2022, 04:23:09 AM
I agree with Zachira.

Validation only seems to work when it is crisis mode.

If it's not crisis mode, then I would also keep it simple and direct as well. She sees your as a mother, so use a mother tone. Calm and firm.   :(

In the end though : you know her best. And you also need to be at peace with your own words, i.e. express yourself in ways you need to express yourself.  We all have things we need to say. Once you've said it, with no blame and an intent of helping both you and her, then you can let go. And it is easier to let go if you are at peace with your words. So if it means telling her you are tired, then say it.  Say whatever YOU need to say to be at peace with the whole thing.

I also agree that I don't think we can completely stop reacting emotionally, however, maybe we can react less longer...


Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: GaGrl on January 15, 2022, 10:18:42 AM
Also an only child (my sister died of breast cancer over 33 years ago at a young age), I went into my mother's care in her final years with the attitude of "I choose to care for Mom in my home because that is important to me and my values." Without my husband and a 5x a week caregiver, I could not have done it. I had help with driving, shopping, her personal care.

That attitude of being true to your values is critical. It kept me on track and sane during some rough days.

I don't know how NOT to be hurt at BPD behaviors aimed at us. My mom, even with her few BPD traits, used silent treatment to cope with her hurt and anger and frustration at the restrictions of her aging conditions -- those were the tough times, when I had to tell her she couldn't do something she was used to doing, or when I had to talk with her about something that embarrassed her (the toilet seat). The loss of control was so difficult for her.

But the silent treatment sent me back to a child not understanding what I had done or said to make her angry. I hated it. My husband and I had an agreement that we would ignore her silent treatments and conduct our household interactions as if she were not "punishing us." So if she didn't reply to an announcement of what was for dinner, H would wait a few seconds and cheerfully say, "Okay, I guess that's good!" Eventually, she'd work her way out of it.

I think imagining her as a recalcitrant preschooler is what got us through that -- we treated her as we would have our children at that age. No way was she going to run our household with her silent treatments.

But I never got verbal abuse (probably because her issue was NOT being able to handle anger, so she stuffed it and used the silent treatment).  How do you -- or do you -- imagine your mother when she begins her verbal abuse? Perhaps some visualization could help you distance your emotions from what looks like your mother but is acting like a ____________.

I also wanted to mention that your mother's care team might be able to give you some info and indication of what to expect when the dementia reaches a more critical stage. The first time my mother did not recognize me broke my heart. The first time she hallucinated scared me. I had not been prepared -- but the hospice nurses quickly got me up to speed and got the right medications. You might need to make decisions at some point that your mother is no longer capable of participating in making -- some help from her doctors on what those markers are would be helpful.

Holding you in my heart...


Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: Cat Familiar on January 15, 2022, 11:54:45 AM
I sure dealt with my mother’s verbal abuse beginning when I was an adolescent, and lasting until her dementia overtook her personality.

Some of the things she said to me when I was a young adult are still so firmly etched in my memory that I can recall specific details of the setting, the weather, the exact words she used, etc. It was really wounding to me at the time and remained so for years.

When I moved her 600 miles closer to me so that I could look after her, I had to change how vulnerable I was to her abusive words. I distanced myself emotionally, thinking that I had this job of caring for this old cranky lady who said nasty things. Lots of times I felt amusement instead of vulnerability and hurt.

I remember one time she not only said abusive things to me, she lunged at me, trying to attack me physically. It was after she had locked herself out of her house and used a knife to break into the house through the door from the garage. She broke the door and had taped it back together.

I determined that I needed to buy a new door, since it was splintered around the lock set, and wouldn’t be able to be securely locked. She went ballistic, accused me of wasting money, and then tried to attack me.

At the time, it seemed surreal, but later, I found humor in it when I relayed it to a contractor friend who was going to be the one to install the new door. He was worried that she would attack him too.  lol

The door installation went smoothly. She was polite to him. I now have the old door as a table in my basement in the workshop. The basement cat has her kitty bed there and can look out the window.

I guess the upshot of this long winded story is that the mother I knew as a child and young person was not the mother I ended up caring for in her elder years. She had no power over me, unless I let her, and I was damned if I was going to let her pull her shenanigans on me now that I was an independent adult.


Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: Couscous on January 15, 2022, 02:27:35 PM
Excerpt
I have "radically accepted" her for who she is. I have a lot of compassion for her because of the abuse she grew up with.  So accepting her, and having compassion, that part is good.

My two cents in this which may not apply to you at all, is that I think that sometimes we want to jump ahead to acceptance prematurely, and that this is sneaky way for us to avoid really holding our mothers accountable for their actions. My T is actually trying to help me feel a little less compassion for my mother and whole lot more for myself.

Excerpt
The problem though is that I am still figuring out how to detach from her emotionally, so that the things she says and does don't hurt.  Anyone figured that out?

I think that inner child or parts work are probably the best approaches for reducing childhood wounds, but that’s a longer term thing. For things that you can implement immediately there are quite a few techniques for lessening the impact of a parent’s hurtful behavior in Children of the Self-Absorbed. There is also an interesting checklist that can help you determine to what degree you have achieved psychological separation.







Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: Mata on January 15, 2022, 05:12:10 PM
So when I received that text while I was on a beach on holidays, I had an emotional reaction. What was her "intention" for sending it?   So, how do I separate from her emotionally so that I can stop having these negative reactions to her behaviors?  My reactions to her language and behaviors is a big problem for me.  So to Harri's point about "changing your thoughts and language", what would be empowering language to use after receiving that text from her, and better than my words at the time which were "why did she send me this now?" and my emotional reaction of being very irritated and frustrated?  

One of the strategies I've used is to view my mom's behaviors as an observer.  I use what I call a 'field study' technique.  I think of it like going out to watch wildlife and making notes of what you see.  So, for example, if I go out of town, it is likely my mom will contact me with some need or problem.  So when it happens, I note the behavior, and will think, "oh, there it is, attempt to get my attention since I'm away."  I try not to analyze it.  It has helped me not get so emotional and remain more neutral to her communications.  She's still really frustrating, but this helps me move through it a little faster.   


Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: Notwendy on January 15, 2022, 07:47:41 PM
The problem though is that I am still figuring out how to detach from her emotionally, so that the things she says and does don't hurt.  Anyone figured that out?  

I don't think we get to the point where it doesn't hurt - I think it can get to where is doesn't feel as personal once we realize the person who says it has a mental disorder. I think we can change how long the hurt feelings last for us, but to not feel any hurt, I don't think that is entirely possible.

When my mother says hurtful things, she has chosen them to be hurtful and she knows that bringing up certain things to me is hurtful and she chooses them.

However, I have stopped trying to get her approval. I wanted my father's approval and tried for that so long as I had a chance to try. But he dismissed my attempts. People tell me that he didn't mean it, that he was not thinking because he was sick before he died, but I don't know for certain.  My mother, at the time, was angry at me, cold and hurtful. I had hoped she might have some empathy for her children who had just lost a father, but that is not who she is. I try to be a good person to her to the extent I can manage- because of my own values but I have no expectations for how she responds to that.


Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: Methuen on January 16, 2022, 02:25:59 AM
Thanks for the suggestions.   Lots of ideas there for me to think about and try.  

So one of the appointments I took mom to recently was to see a specialist about her Parkinsons.  He prescribed Cinimet to counter the shaking so that she could manage every day tasks easier and maybe be able to do some hobbies again.  He started her on the lowest dose, and only half of that.  She agreed to try it.  It was the only medication suitable to try because of her history.  

I delivered her meds to her.

She has decided she doesn’t want  to take them.  
I suspect she’s in denial about her Parkinsons.  She calls her shakng a result of “old age”.

Her choice.  

I suspect she likes the attention of being picked up and ferried to her appointments, and getting attention from the doctors.  But she doesn’t like what they are telling her, so she ignores their advice.  This is becoming a pattern, and seems like a waste of everybody’s time.

You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink.


Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: Notwendy on January 16, 2022, 04:59:03 AM
I recall at my college graduation, we were walking around campus and my mother complained about being thirsty. So I went into a campus snack area and asked for some water. (bottled water wasn't a thing then) and they gave me a cup of water for her.

I handed her the cup of water. She looked at it and said in a dissatisfied voice " I changed my mind, I don't want it anymore" and dumped it on the ground.

I wouldn't have remembered this incidence if it wasn't hurtful. It was my graduation. Somehow we remember events at milestones like this.

It didn't occur to me that if she was thirsty, she could get her own water, but we were so used to taking care of her, to serving her, that this was what we did.



Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: GaGrl on January 16, 2022, 09:14:18 AM
Methuen, that's another piece of information to be shared with all her medical team -- "purposely non-compliant with meds." All of these bits add up to a true picture of her situation, which of course she's trying to hide.


Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: zachira on January 16, 2022, 10:38:32 AM
Methuen,
It really does makes sense that a person with BPD would thrive on all the attention due to their medical problems and would not be motivated to comply with taking medication or whatever would help them to get better. My aunt apparently faked being suddenly ill at a holiday gathering and the emergency responders, all volunteers, had to come. My cousin was furious at her mother for wasting people's time this way, especially on an important national holiday. It does seem like you are working on not rewarding or reinforcing your mother's manipulation of others to get more attention for herself, to not feel so abandoned.


Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: Notwendy on January 16, 2022, 11:16:19 AM
I agree that reporting non compliance helps. I think it has to be looked at in the grand scheme of things. My mother is not compliant with some of her meds. They sent a nurse to help her organize them into daily doses in a pill container but she let them do it and then said she's going to organize them the way she wants. However, she still qualifies as mentally competent. She's quite aware of where she is, current events. She's also able to take care of her personal needs- bathing, dressing, eating. However, non compliance in addition to not being able to do other things is a factor. Methuen, I think your mother needs more assistance with daily tasks than mine does.


Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: Methuen on January 16, 2022, 11:18:08 AM
It didn't occur to me that if she was thirsty, she could get her own water, but we were so used to taking care of her, to serving her, that this was what we did.
This hit home.  

It also fits with my mother’s need to have me be her mother, and have her needs met. I am wondering if perhaps I have become a carer to her as currency for her approval.  I have been  in the field of “helping professional” my whole life, so it just fit with my values to help my own mother as she aged, and her numerous health conditions resulted in her needing more support.  

Like NW said, when she said she was thirsty, she ran to get her a glass of water.  On the other hand, H and I recognized what was happening and instituted a policy for ourselves of not doing what she could do for herself.  If she wanted us to do something which she was capable of doing herself, we simply told her she could do it.  Occasionally we would stay with her to ensure things didn’t go awry eg dr appts.  Despite our “policy” the level of care for her has increased.

The advancement of the Parkinsons has complicated our policy, because of the severity of its symptoms.  She even avoids phone calls now because she can’t get her words out.  So I always assist with her important calls- like her doctor appointments ( if by phone instead of in person). She drops her pills and can’t pick them up because of mobility issues.  She cant feed herself with her right hand anymore, and uses her left instead (which doesn’t shake - yet).  The Parkinsons is a game changer.

However , her recent refusal to take meds for her Parkinsons symptoms is interesting.  She says they make her dizzy/nautious.  But last week she said it was her eye drops making her dizzy/nautious.  The week before that she acknowledged to her Dr that her dizziness and nausea was a result of anxiety.   Her med for that was increased.

I have “taken the week off from mother”.   She thinks it is because I have been nursing a bad back ( which is true and started when I had to shovel snow to transport her to the Parkinsons specialist).  The “week off” has been good for me.  But I am still struggling with what I will eventually have to tell her to maintain lower contact.  

“I need more time to look after myself and pursue my own interests”?  We all know what she will say to that.  

So, just not care what she says  and indulge “ my inner narcissist “?


Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: Methuen on January 16, 2022, 11:35:19 AM
Regarding her non-compliance of taking her meds, I reported that two days ago.  The response?  If she doesn’t want to take it, there is nothing we can do. 

I just keep passing on the info to her care providers (family doctor and the elderly care consultant who will be doing her assessment) and articulated that I am burned out, and is it possible to get services to support her? 

The catch is that she has to agree to said services, which she doesn’t want.

She wants us and her friends to do everything.  Her friends are also in the 80’s and 90’s. 

It appears we are in a position where we have to just let her struggle and fail. She will feel abandoned.


Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: Notwendy on January 16, 2022, 11:42:50 AM
I have become a carer to her as currency for her approval.

That has been the currency in my family. Our worth was contingent on how we could serve our mother's needs. I agree it also probably has been a component of our other relationships and career choices. However, I also think women have traditionally entered the caring professions- teaching, nursing, social work- these fields are predominantly female so that is also a cultural influence.


Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: Cat Familiar on January 16, 2022, 11:46:40 AM
“I need more time to look after myself and pursue my own interests”?  We all know what she will say to that. 

So, just not care what she says  and indulge “ my inner narcissist “?


Yup. Perhaps rather than going into such detail, say, “I’m busy, Mom. I can be there ________day.”

The biggest issue I see here is you letting go of your need for her approval, as well as worrying about your integrity as a caring daughter.

You’ve got the second covered. The approval is the biggie.


Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: Methuen on January 16, 2022, 12:06:57 PM
NW - good observation on the cultural influences.  These were the careers that were acceptable for women to enter, and where there were fewer barriers, and more opportunities.

Cat Fam - thanks.  I think that is what I needed to hear.


Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: GaGrl on January 16, 2022, 12:14:11 PM
As Cat indicates, the less detail explanation, the better. As with communicating with divorced co-parents, use BIFF -- Brief, Informational, Friendly, Firm.

As much as possible, you can communicate the positive of what you can do, rather than outright refusals.

"Mom, this week I can do a grocery run, Run a few loads of laundry, and take you to your appointment on Thursday."

"But...but...but..."

"You'll need to make other arrangements for that. This is what I can do this week."

"...[escalating protests and an insult]..."

"Bye, Mom."


Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: Methuen on January 16, 2022, 05:11:47 PM
the less detail explanation, the better. As with communicating with divorced co-parents, use BIFF -- Brief, Informational, Friendly, Firm.

As much as possible, you can communicate the positive of what you can do, rather than outright refusals.

"Mom, this week I can do a grocery run, Run a few loads of laundry, and take you to your appointment on Thursday."

"But...but...but..."

"You'll need to make other arrangements for that. This is what I can do this week."

"...[escalating protests and an insult]..."

"Bye, Mom."

Golly, this is good GaGrl.  Thanks!  I should know this...  Things got real crazy real fast when I got home from our family trip.  Her behavior kept escalating and was just so overwhelming day after day that I lost my way, and the wisemind just stopped working. Thanks to everyone for all your thoughtful and practical suggestions.  I think I'll be referring back to this thread quite often.  Lots here to work on. :hug:


Title: Re: She sees me as her mother
Post by: GaGrl on January 16, 2022, 05:59:11 PM
Methuen, you've got this.  :hug: