BPDFamily.com

Has anyone else developed a sort of BPD radar when it comes to other people’s relationships?  I seem to be able to sniff them out a lot lately.  I am pretty sure one of my buddies has a BPD wife - and she is making his life miserable trying to cut him off from friends, threatening divorce, accusing him of affairs and not liking her etc….  I want to tell him about the condition because he is exhausted, but I am concerned that this type of discussion would be crossing a sensitive unspoken society boundary… anyone else feel the same?  What did you do?

It seems the more self aware we become and the more educated we are about disordered people the more we spot specific disorders like BPD. I would gentlely test your friend to see how open he is about hearing what you think. My guess is if he is still with his wife, than he probably is not going to be very receptive to hearing what you think.

In addition to what zachira suggested, I would suggest a gift of the following book from you to him:

"Stop Walking on Eggshells"

by Paul T. Mason and Randi Kreger

----

P.S.  With any mental disorder, once you learn about them, they stick out like neon signs.  I noticed this when my D had anorexia nervosa.  Now that I know about the borderline, I can sniff those and NPD people out too in the same manner, it sucks, but it is an eye opener too.

I recall, a year or two ago "BPD" became a trending topic on twitter, maybe because of the Johnny Depp/Amber Heard trial, with some ridicule from all angles.  Notably, there was the "angle" of dismissing BPD, as just another thing guys say, like "yeah, all guys say their ex was crazy... Get real."

And of course, there's a well-known tendency for amateur psychologists to over-diagnose whatever the mental illness or disorder du jour is.

So if you want your friend to take you seriously, you probably need to provide some background before jumping into something like "your wife is possibly BPD."  Probably need to wait for a moment you have some time to sit down and really talk, not just mention something in passing.

I don’t have such a radar. In fact, through my whole adult life, I have always found it immensely depressing feeling that everyone around me has a more stable and healthy relationship than me. My perception, from joining bpd family, is that us caretakers are extremely proficient when it comes to keeping up appearances and doing everything they can to make their spouse appear to others to be a reasonable and sane person and to give the impression of a stable and loving relationship. That in itself gives me comfort. Nobody knows the hell I go through in my marriage. So any other “happy” person laughing in the staff room could, truth be known, be just as miserable as me. In fact those who are happy at work are potentially even more likely to be unhappy at home.

That is absolutely true in my opinion.  However my opinion was thwarted over Christmas when I finally told my sister that I have been emotionally abused for >25 years.  She said “I know.”  My jaw dropped and it was like a cold ice bucket had been thrown on me.  I thought I had hid it from her.  She didn’t understand BPD - but she understood and saw emotional abuse.  In the end, I cried knowing I had someone in my family in my corner.  For those of us that haven’t taken that step - it is quite empowering and confidence boosting.  I highly recommend it!

Yes, they are. My father was a pro at it to the point that I don't think most people caught on. In addition, it became a family task. We were not allowed to speak about my BPD mother's behavior to anyone and once we were old enough to help out with household tasks, we were enlisted in this goal too.

How we kids were perceived by others played a role in this. For instance, if we did well in school, this would be accredited to my mother being a wonderful parent. So some of these expectations overlapped with what could be desirable parenting- such as encouraging kids to do well in school, do their homework but for us, the motive was different. Emotionally healthy parents want their kids to do well in school because it is in the kids' best interest. For my family, it also was to support the image that my mother was doing a good job.

My father was focused on that. He'd somehow find some way to praise my mother in public- and we have been encouraged to do the same. It's not that she is undeserving of complements or nice things but these venture into outright lies and that feels uncomfortable to do.

One memory of how we were enlisted into this is that when I was a teen, my mother signed up to bring brownies to a school function. She doesn't cook. When I got home from school, she demanded that I make the brownies. I accidentally cooked them too long and they got burned. She went into a huge rage, accusing me of doing this on purpose. I did make another batch which she brought to the school. I think people assumed she made them.

My father's family had caught on to my mother. They were wise enough to not say much about it - as if they did, my father may have cut contact with them. After he passed away, some relatives told me they saw the issues from the beginning.

Recently some of the relatives on her side have caught on to her but they didn't see it before. They thought she was a little eccentric but not the whole of it. It did feel good to hear that someone else understands the situation. I didn't initiate that conversation. We are so used to not saying anything about her and have been punished for doing so.

As to having "radar" about BPD. I don't think I can assume a diagnosis, but I can see where someone is taking on a similar role that my father has. My husband worked odd hours and so on weekends, I he was often away and I'd take the kids to the playground when they were little. There were other kids about the same age and kids, being kids, would play with them and recognize them when they were there. Their father was there too, always by himself. I never saw the mother there. When we were little, it was similar- Dad took us out on weekends, to the park, to the Zoo, to the museums. BPD mother didn't come with us. He was taking us out to both protect us from her behavior and because she could not manage doing this with kids.

So, I could see that something was up when only the dad was there with the kids, all the time. It's not my nature to chat with men in the park, but the kids became friends and so, it was even more awkward to not say anything to the dad as if he wasn't there, so we'd speak casually and we both made it clear we has spouses so there was no misconceptions. I suspected something was going on with his wife but would not ever consider asking. He'd make a few excuses for her.

Yes, to the BPD radar. Also NPD, autism, ADHD, etc. But I do have a rough idea of the statistics for each so I'm careful not to be too keen to armchair diagnose! I think that's important. I see plenty of ADHD, quite a bit of Aspergers, only a couple of BPD (unfortunately including wife!), and (fortunately!) only one NPD. I find it annoying the way so many people throw around "Narcissism." They've clearly never met the real deal.

Well done in having that talk with your sister. I’m sure that must have been difficult but worth it. Since I joined bpd family it has become more and more apparent to me that something is up with my brother’s wife and marriage (and always has been). She has strongly disliked me from the beginning of their relationship. I have barely spoken to him since they got together about 20 years ago. We as a family have always said his wife is controlling, just a few things she’s said in the short amount of time we get to see them. I have never been close to my brother. But it’s made me wonder whether, when he’s ignored my messages, did she forbid him from replying or something? I am so lonely. I wish I could talk to him about this. But I never get the chance, both our wives are always there. I don’t even know what I would say.

Thank you for sharing more of your story Not Wendy. I find it so insightful. I spent a couple of hours cleaning the house last night because my wife was supposed to be having a friend (neighbour) to visit today. I didn’t mind because I really want her to have a friend. The unspoken impression she wants to give though is that I’m the working mother and she’s the housewife mother who also keeps the house nice. But then she flipped out just before I was due to leave for work. She threw her bowl of fruit and yoghurt and my 3 year old started cleaning it up. I ended up cancelling work and she ended up cancelling the friend. I hate to cancel work but then as we’ve said before it’s best not to leave the children with her being like that, even though she’s “bullied” me into it, it is also for the best for them.

My BPD mother would have rages where she trashed the house. I recall in about 5th grade ( age 10 ) I had not done my homework and the teacher sent me to the principal's office. He asked me why I didn't do my homework and I told him I had to clean up the kitchen. I don't think I told him what I was cleaning up- broken dishes, food and condiment mess all over the floor- she really did trash it -throwing plates and items from the refrigerator all over the kitchen.

I don't know if my reason alarmed him or he thought I was making it up and telling a lie, but he called my mother in. She walked in calmly- my attractive, well spoken and well dressed mother and told him something, probably that I was making it up and took me home.

Not only did we learn not to say anything about what went on in our house, but also we learned that nobody would believe us if we did.

I want to try and make sure my children don’t grow up having to cover up such things. I don’t want to encourage or condone such expectations. As they grow and start asking questions then I’ll surely be looking for more advice in what to tell them. My daughter was very worried, came and took my hand, her speech is limited but she was saying, “oh no! Cake!” and went to get a cloth. She does love cleaning but was clearly concerned about my wife and also came and held my hand while I got shouted at.

My sister and I are similar and also family situations are similar.  We don’t talk much 1x1 because family is always around.   However, we know each other and she is the only family member I can trust to be mature.  I asked for the time with her alone as a sister and she told our families we would have sibling time by going grocery shopping.   I took her to a coffee shop and then asked if we could just sit.  I started asking how are you… and then she reciprocated with the same question and I was honest.  She said the same thing you are saying about your brother and his wife…. “I noticed she was really controlling… and we have been praying for you for a long time…” - was my sisters response.  Maybe my situation can prompt an idea or two for you and your brother.  It is hard for us non’s sometimes to “get real” with sharing our feelings - but it is worth it with someone you could trust.

I think it's hard to prevent this kind of influence. There's a certain kind of shame for having a disordered mother. Somehow, I feared people would think I am disordered because she is. So not only was there the fear of speaking about her due to my parent's wishes, I somehow was afraid that if people knew about her, they would not like me.

As a teen, I was afraid to bring friends home from school as I didn't know what to expect from my mother and I didn't want them to see her being dysregulated. I think it's possible to mitigate some of these feelings but I don't know if it can be avoided. Interestingly, I found out a few years ago that a couple of friends in high school also had mothers who were disordered. None of us ever knew that about each other. We didn't mention it.

Outdoorenthusiast- yes, it's a big deal to have someone you know actually "get it". Recently, a relative that has realized our situation spoke to me about it. I was very surprised to hear that, but also felt supported.

you do what you can as a non-disordered parent.

If you're married, all you can do is put a brave face on, try to
hold your ground, and hope kids don't pick up bad habits. 

If your BPD-ex is dysfunctional or harmful enough, you hope you can get primary custody to physically and temporally limit the pwBPD's influence.

If not, if they're just bad, but not bad enough to convince a judge or jury are able to award primary or sole custody to the non, well, you can model healthy, non-disordered behavior to the kids, and take steps to monitor and address any bad habits that start.

I know my wife’s plan is for the children to have friends round here as they grow up. This is because my wife’s parents never allowed her to have anyone round when she was a child which she resented. It will be interesting how that works out because my wife often will cancel things that seem too much like “normal”. Despite what’s going on with the baby, I do feel like the huge row about me going to work and blaming me for everything the other day was somehow a huge set up to use as an excuse for cancelling the neighbour coming round. At least if we end up splitting up then the children can bring their friends to my place.

My personal experience- the pattern will continue.  My uBPDw said the same thing when the kids were little -  (want to have kids over…parents never let her…) and yet as teens she would still cancel continuously and the kids would continuously get disheartened.  I finally have taken the role in the last two years to insist that she can go hibernate in her bedroom, but friends are coming over regardless.  Plans for our kids don’t get broken just because of her roller coaster feelings.  Sometimes I get yelled at because of it, but my kids can have a social life.  Worst case, the venue changes and I take the kids to the mall if my W is being exceptionally disrespectful.

This reminds me of another "radar" moment. The friend group was going to  high school prom. This group had known each other since grade school and the parents all knew each other since then too. One set of parents were divorced and I am mainly friends with the mother. I guess it was the father's time with his daughter as the kids were going to his house to meet and take pictures before the event.

If someone isn't in the US and not familiar with prom, it's a big deal- the kids get all dressed up and parents want to take pictures of them and their friends- so there's often a chance to do that- so we parents went to the father's house to take pictures of the group.

The father had recently remarried. I had met the new wife once when I ran into them in a grocery store. I thought she was a bit stand offish. But I thought, well maybe she's new here and it's all new to her.

But the radar moment was at prom. She was nowhere in sight when we went to take pictures. I asked about her- maybe she was out of town? Even as a step parent- it's odd to miss the chance to see the kids all dressed up and excited. I heard she was upstairs in her room. She didn't come down the whole time, didn't see the kids or meet the other parents. She wasn't ill- I had asked if she was OK- not to be intrusive but as a polite hope she's well wish.

I don't know if they are still married or not or if they even moved. Since I mostly only saw the father at some school functions, once the kids graduated and went to college, I haven't run into him.

But I agree- better to have the kids come over and have fun. If wife wants to stay in her room- well that's her choice but the father still had people over. It's likely nobody thought anything of it, but for me, I noticed it. I don't know if the wife has BPD or not.

As my own "radar" had developed, I've found it hard to hear stories like the prom one, Notwendy, without empathizing with what the Non. is about to go through.

you just KNOW once the kids and parents all leave, the guilt trip is going to start...

Since I was one of the parents, I was focused on the kids.

But I do understand the perspective of the non, having observed my father in this situation and I do feel empathy for them. I think our perspective is shaped by our roles, the non feels the situation from the partner's perspective. My "radar" was formed from the child's.

You really nailed it, Thankful Person! I too look around at those who seem to have happy, healthy relationships and I feel deeply sad, knowing that whatever happiness my BPD wife and I share, is only going to last until she gets upset about this, that or the other thing. I try to a certain extent to make her appear normal, but my family knows all about it and hers does too. Even the people in our church (now my church since she doesn't go anymore) know there's something wrong there. It's like a sense of shame, even though I didn't do anything wrong besides marry her (eyeroll).

Same here with the shame, as if somehow if people knew the truth about my BPD mother, it would reflect on me somehow.

You have to be carefully though, there are a lot of mental illnesses and disorders and we can jump too quickly into calling them BPD when there are other issues at play. Also many people exhibit traits but not sufficient to be diagnosed as disorders. Its almost like wanting to be able to pick it in other relationships so we feel validated and not alone dealing with it.

We may think we can cover for it and it cant be picked by outsiders, but generally they know something is "off" but have never learned about personality disorders so dont quite know what, so dont say anything

I wonder if the feeling that something is "off" is more about the presenting that all is normal than the actual situation. You know something isn't the usual and yet, people are pretending all is fine. Maybe that's one reason for the radar- but yes, we can't assume certainty.

As my radar gets better at detecting unhealthy people for me to be around, I have become better at seeing who to limit my engagement with and who I need to quietly move away from. Every time I grow and change, it means ending certain realtionships, some with people who I thought were my friends. The BPD radar that we talk about here becomes more acute as we grow into healthier people, yet we have to be in a place of self awareness and strength that allows us to endure the pain to look at where we have been, where we are now, and where we want to go in terms of what kind of person we are/want to be and what kind of people are healthy to have in our inner circles.
We often talk about on this site, about the people who have no capacity for empathy and the frustration of dealing with them. Seeing this can mean you are getting ready to make some pretty big changes in how you relate to yourself and others, no matter how big the challenges are and the painful realties that lie ahead as you navigate cleaning house and setting healthy boundaries with all the people in your life.

Agree.  You can maybe detect something is "off" from a single interaction or occasion, but until you see a pattern you can't be sure.

A lot of things can affect a person's mood or look like BPD, that are temporary.  Although in our experience, since BPDers will use a lot of things to excuse their outbursts or moodiness, we may grow skeptical when we hear other people say them, but you can't allow your experience to overrule reality, and the reality is all people may exhibit BPD traits on occasion, when they're stressed or sick, or otherwise under circumstances that try their patience, but the vast majority of adults do not have BPD.
in my own situation, BPDxw was causing so much trouble in my family, particularly with my mom, that I finally reached out to her and a few other people and confided in them that I suspected my then-wife was disordered, possibly BPD, reassured them I loved them and knew who said what and "who started it," and suggested they read about BPD to understand more about what I was going through and so they wouldn't take anything personally.

My aunt didn't like that as much, (she was ready to fight- verbally - with my XW, LOL), but my mom thanked me for that, and said she couldn't sleep some nights worrying about things my XW said or claimed or called her.

Yep the trying too hard to present the "perfect family" sweeping all flaws under the carpet. My wife's family are like that. Too much reliance on image, probably due to a fear of criticism, or being examined too closely. Not only is everything swept under the carpet but the edges are nailed down with no prying allowed.

Ours wasn't as much the "perfect family" image but a "nothing is wrong with BPD mother" and to build her up in public. I think it was more shame driven than image seeking. Efforts were more to erase and deny any of her disordered behaviors and to "normalize" her. She's intelligent but has difficulty  carrying out tasks so others would do things for her and people assume she does them.

It's not unusual to see mothers alone at the park with the kids, or school functions and also sometimes see the father's alone with the kids as well. I think if a child's friend's parents are divorced, I have known that because sometimes it's the father's time and sometimes it's the mother's. They aren't hiding that. It might be that it's two fathers but we'd know that too. It seems unique to mental illness/BPD to keep that hidden.

For me though, it was almost always my father who did this- took us to school, and out on weekends. There were days my mother just stayed in the house. The reality is that I don't think she can manage kids on an outing by herself- it would be emotionally overwhelming to her. I can imagine she feels badly herself about that but rather than disclose the reason, there were all kinds of other "reasons" made up.

When my kids were younger, it was still mostly mothers doing these things with their kids. So that wasn't unusual to see only the mother. But when it is only the father and the parents are married and one doesn't ever see the mother... It's my own experience that makes me wonder if something else is going on.

My wife is much like this using avoidance due to not being able to organize herself, or stick to a plan, to go anywhere or do anything. There is always some "dog ate my homework" type of excuse.

Unfortunately she completely convinces herself that once an excuse is made it is totally good, and anyone who questions it is being an abusive bully, and she goes into full victimhood. Even when she effectively has used the same excuse every day of term. When it has gone way past believability she will dig in and pile on more BS, and up the victimhood. The bigger the BS the bigger the overselling it, and the insistence that she is told that she is believed and validated that its not her fault and "off the hook". Ultimately most people cave and tell her what she wants to hear.

Then it just rinse repeats, with no comprehension why she is loosing credibility. The only "out" for other parties is abandonment to avoid being pressured to validate the invalid. This then reinforces BPD abandonment and victimhood issues.

Family has no idea how to avoid this and so cover up to minimise the drama and keep the peace, and so are swept up in the whole dysfunctionality. Trying to open about it to others just opens a can of worms as no one else "gets it". eg the father at the playground gets asked by another mother "where is little jimmy's mother we never see her?" What option does he have other than to state an obvious cover story, at the same time feeling bad about himself for doing so?

My wife is very good at “keeping up appearances” and it actually includes when she is out in public with our 3 young children. When I read, “raising resilient children with a borderline or narcissist”, I found myself somewhat envious of a parent who can take the kids out to “give the bpd parent a break” or whatever. Because my wife has so much control that I rarely spend time with the children without her. My biggest “cover up” over the years has been my “personality transplant” where my wife’s control over me is concerned. I now recognise that my brother has been exactly the same, even though I don’t really know much about his marriage or his wife (except that she is very controlling). Very early on in my relationship with my wife, we were due to visit my parents and my Dad rang asking when we were going to be arriving (the usual tantrums and all the rest of it were going down my end with my wife being entirely uncommitted to even getting out of bed). I said to Dad, “Dad we’re not the kind of people who can tell you a time we’re arriving! We’ll get there when we get there!” In fact I had always been a person to know what time I’m aiming for something and in fact I still am. But over the years I have made numerous excuses for why my wife hasn’t attended family events and sometimes I’ve missed them too. I have also attempted to cover up how little my wife has worked over the years and her excessive spending habits. If anyone in my family of origin has noticed anything strange, they have not mentioned it to me. My Mum knows about the bpd but she doesn’t know much about how it affects anything. I’m ashamed to tell anyone how badly my wife treats me sometimes.

I don't think people know the whole of it. I think I am sensitive to these things due to my own experience.

My BPD mother's friends have told me  "your mother is so wonderful" and she is - to people outside the family.

When I saw these dads on their own with kids and didn't hardly ever see the mother, I didn't ask where the mother is. I know that could be a difficult situation. It may feel more awkward for you to make the excuses as you know the whole of it, but it's likely others don't even have an idea what may go on, unless it's something they experienced in their own family and even then, maybe not.

I don't think anyone outside my immediate family knows all of what has gone on and we don't see any reason to change that. A few of her extended family have realized there is more going on then they realize.  They did say they noticed a few red flags but otherwise they had no idea. They thought my mother was a bit eccentric, or other odd behaviors but not more. I'd be willing to bet most people don't know what is going on when someone makes excuses.

I've been separated for about 6 months now and finally starting to peek at dating apps, which is an absolute nightmare.  I have noticed that I'll glance at a profile and think, "This gal is absolutely nuts...and I absolutely want to meet her."  Sometimes it's what they write but a lot of the time, it's just how they're posing in the photo(s) or little things in their profile. 

I quickly realized that I'm not ready for dating yet, and when I am ready I definitely don't need to seek that type of love.  But why do I get so excited at the possibility of someone I clearly have zero business talking too?

I don't know, just some self reflection and a hard truth, I guess.

I think for others to get that there is abuse going on they have to have experienced similar abuse themselves or be knowledgeable about abuse because of their life experiences and/or line of work.I also realize most people are not in touch with their feelings and are overwhelmed by their own emotions, so they cannot be empathetic when hearing about another person's pain since they can't deal with their own pain.

Yeah.  from what I've seen people  who haven't been in a r/s with a BPDer, grown up with one, or otherwise been subjected to a rage have trouble understanding that pwBPD will fight just to fight.  They WANT conflict.  They need it. 

The advice you get from such people is meaningless; it just serves to stir the pot more.

I agree with this too. My wife openly tells me that she tells other people (that I don’t know so well) that I’m an unsupportive partner. I don’t know if she tells them how I could better support her, she refuses to tell me this because, “you should KNOW!” And the other greatest accusation is that I’m “always starting arguments”. I expect she’s told other people that too. It was only through my work on here that I realised that if she says, “Child will be too sick to attend nursery on Wednesday” and I say, “well you never know, she might be better by then”…  that is her idea of me “starting an argument”: I now realise that my sharing of such thoughts is “invalidating”, so I try to limit my sharing of my thoughts, especially the hopeful ones which don’t align with hers. This has certainly helped my wife to be calmer, but she does still say that I always start arguments.

Its worse than that, it is completely devaluating. How do you feel when they say simplistic things like. "I wouldn't put up with that", "why dont you stand up for yourself?", "You're better off without that kind of $%^", "Why don't you leave?" , "You made your choices". You end up wishing you'd never mentioned it. So you cover up.

But how invalidating is it to you not to be allowed your opinion simply because it is different, and most likely more realistic?

These relationships are difficult to understand from the outside. People may wonder "why don't you just leave" but it's more complicated than that.

As an adult, I asked my father questions like this sometimes as well, before I understood the complexity of the dynamics in these kinds of relationships. I perceived my mother as the "problem" - that's what it looked like from the outside. "why do you put up with this behavior".

Even though the question was out of concern, (and not knowing), his response was sometimes an angry one. It makes sense it felt invalidating and not supportive, but there's no way we could know that. I think I understand some of the complexity better now but truly- nobody knows all that goes on between two people.

I think the best kind of support would come from a therapist who is familiar with these situations.

I know how frustrating it can be to try to communicate with a parent and get angry denials. 

As I've grown into adulthood, I think of all the advice or lessons I could have learned that I missed out on because among my parents or grandparents, "you don't talk about those things" or "shield the kids from this stuff."

And then we hit adulthood and we're busy and it turns out there was never another opportunity to share the information.  so it's gone. 

My dad is similar for different reasons; he's been in a LTR with a woman I suspect is disordered or definitely not all there.  She seems to have a vendetta against my mom (even though they never met) and my siblings and I.  She actively stirred the pot in my marriage w/BPDxw by calling her and badmouthing my mom to her and other rumors and what not.  She herself came from a dysfunctional family; siblings were alcoholic and one was institutionalized. 

When I ask my dad questions that cut too close to his relationship, like why he won't do something or why he did something, he usually gets angry and evasive, even cutting contact for periods of time. 

I still don't know what he sees in her or why he's put up with her for as long as he has. 

Funny you should say that as the child is absolutely fine and most definitely going to nursery tomorrow. I’d never thought about validation before joining bpd family but I’m grateful to get lots of it on here. I think with bpd you can improve things your end but there will always be eggshells. I recently moved one of my Saturday online students to Sunday because my wife gets in from slimming world on Saturday and it’s her one social occasion of the week and she wants to report back to me straight after and get my undivided attention. As she was talking I was taking it all in, D3 asked for a snack and wife said, “no”. Knowing she’d been asking for ages whilst I was busy, and it wasn’t long since breakfast but I had been intending to offer her an apple. So as wife was talking to me I offered D3 the apple and she took it. My wife snatched it away saying, “I said NO!” And started having a go at me about not giving her attention and also giving D3 a snack when she’d said, “no”. (She did give it back to her). Sometimes I don’t exactly JADE but I can’t resist pointing out that if she were to share that story with anyone, in which world is it ok to take an apple away from a hungry 3 year old who has asked so nicely and been given it by the other parent? Fortunately I manage to avoid such outcomes most of the time. But yes, I’m back to walking on eggshells. On reflection, I wanted the child to have the apple, so at that point in time there was nothing I could have done better, had I stopped to ask my wife’s permission (like I used to), she still would have been angry that I’d changed the subject and was talking about snacks when she’d said no.

That is because he has no control and cant answer without making up excuses, so is frustrated and evades, we have all been there

This is the issue, you sacrifice your own validation so as not to invalidate them all the time. Your child in this instance also learns that you have no authority in the house, and so do you. Your child is also taught that if you bully you retain control, as your wife did. The behaviour is then copied and passed down.

Waverider, I completely agree. I’m sure you can imagine I was hugely controlled by my wife for many years, I did what she said etc to keep the peace. When our first child arrived I realised things needed to change that’s when I eventually found bpd family. I have come a long way from being a person who would do what my wife said without questioning it. Back then I would have either just ignored the child asking for the apple or asked my wife’s permission even though I knew she would say no. I didn’t want my children to grow up seeing this, but I accept that it is still harmful for them to see the dynamics between us sometimes (thankfully this kind of thing doesn’t happen too often, maybe monthly?). I have become more assertive and less scared of my wife. But yet I’m still trying to keep the peace mostly because of the kids. What do you think I should have done differently?

It's interesting that we see things from our own perspective with relationship to the BPD issues. The apple scenario also involved the child.  I can see it from both ways though. If one parent says no to something and the other parent allows it - then that undermines the first parent. I can see why that didn't sit well with your wife. However, this issue is between the two of you. If she feels you undermined her, the appropriate response is not to assert your authority by taking the apple from the child. Now if it was something harmful to her, of course take it away but the emotional outcome of taking away an apple from a 3 year old is more detrimental than to let her have it. She doesn't understand what is going on. The child didn't do anything wrong. It feels punitive to her.

It would be good if it were possible for the two parents to discuss this later in private, and somehow come to an agreement, but that is not the usual situation with BPD. Had you intervened right there, it would probably have escalated- worse scenario. You chose to avoid that- which was the better of the choices for the situation.

In my family, we didn't get the message that the bully maintains control. For us it was an odd two tiered expectation for behavior. Maybe because my BPD mother was so affected by BPD, that her behavior didn't fit the idea of bully. Yes, it gave her control but it was more that she lost control. The tier was- for BPD mother, she could do anything, say anything, and get what she wanted. There is no way that behavior would be tolerated if any of us did it. Rather, we had to be well behaved and even a slight transgression seemed to be the crime of the century- anything we did that might upset BPD mother was considered a major transgression.

I know that spouses walk the line of putting the marriage first and that the kids should not feel they are more important than the marriage. But the kids need to feel they are loved and their feelings are validated. The message we got was that only one person (BPD mother )mattered.

Because my mother's behavior was so obviously not appropriate, I didn't consider doing any of it. I didn't see being a bully as being a good thing and didn't copy that.  So I role modeled my father's behavior. He seemed like the "normal" parent an in many ways her was. If the "normal" parent is enabling, then the children can also copy that behavior. I had to work on these tendencies. The child isn't at fault but unfortunately they may be caught up in the parents' conflict with one parent not intervening in behaviors that can affect the child.

Thanks not Wendy. You’re right, there would have been no point in discussing the apple incident after the fact. My wife knew she shouldn’t have snatched the apple away which is why she gave it back. She is generally dedicated to motherhood and our children, though still so little, do seem very secure and confident following all the breast feeding, bed sharing, and spending so much time at home with her. I understand your thoughts on my undermining her. Usually when the children ask for snacks they want something like crisps or biscuits, so if it’s not “time” for that then the usual understanding is we offer them fruit instead and if they accept it then we can assume they were hungry. I think my wife said no mostly because she was busy talking to me. At least when the children are older I’ll be able to discuss any such incidents with them later, though I’m not exactly sure what I am going to say. Interestingly, as my wife considers herself recovered from bpd, she intends to be open with the children when they are old enough to ask about her self harm scars. I think she will tell them about the bpd herself (her own perspective of it), though I don’t think it will be helpful for me to use this label when talking to them about her unusual behaviour. Is there anything that would have helped you to better understand and cope with your mother’s behaviour when you were a child?

These two passages resonate with me. When the kids were younger it felt like maternal gatekeeping, even though I'm amazing, competent, engaged and loving father. Now she uses money and time (she has a ton of days off) to win other the kids.

And my early teen kids are so enmeshed that I don't even think they realize the BPD behavior is not normal. Sad, but true. I'm always trying to find the words to explain to them in real time.

As for my shame based on how my wife treats me. I'm working on that.

Not much you can do other than be aware of how insidious it all is. No matter what we do we cant completely quarantine all these behaviours

Waverider is correct- I think though- the best thing is to hold on to who you are and reduce the enabling behaviors.

Our children learn from us in ways beyond what we say. Children are also magical thinkers, they don't have the full understanding of these dynamics. I had two main examples of how to behave- and I didn't want to behave like my BPD mother. My father was the "good guy" hero- to me and he had many positive qualities. There's no question of who was the more functional role model. However, to "be good" in our family was to be and do what BPD mother wanted in the moment, and so I brought these enabling and co-dependent behaviors into my world as an adult. It was through working on them that I began to understand my father's role in the dynamics- not from a critical way- but to begin to see this in more depth.

It comes down to the other advice for you- stand up for your job, your piano talent, your time with the kids, to the best that you can. Self care is important. You will then role model this for your kids and they will know it's OK to do this too.

I’ve been on the other side of this. It wasn’t until my good friend with a BPDw clued me in to the fact that I have an uBPDw that I started to feel a sense of control again. I will always be grateful to him for that.

I’d suggest going through the 9 diagnostic criteria with him instead of just giving a diagnosis.

You might find helpful the book "Raising Resilient Children with a Borderline or Narcissistic Parent".

I’m sorry thankful person. It hurts me to read your experience bc it reminds me of pieces of my own with my uBPDw. There was so much Ive had to hide or make excuses for to my mom and it made me sad bc my mom is a truly wonderful, unconditionally supportive mother but I felt like a hostage where I had to give everything to please my wife instead of the people who actually supported me and made me feel safe and loved. The wedding planning was a nightmare. My wife intimidated me into changing everything for her against my wishes and I had to keep making excuses to explain it to my family. It almost got to the point where my own brother might not have been able to attend

One final thought. Make sure there is at least one aspect of your life that you stand up for, come what may, as that is your identity. Bending here and there on others is fine, but always bending across the board to satisfy someone else leaves you with a totally bent and weakened sense of self, and subsequently a weak role model.

This is awesome advice.  I was losing my own self identity trying to please my uBPDw.  Back in June, I learned to do self-care, and regain my own identity back - best damn thing I have done recently. 

She didn't like, she attempted suicide to prevent me, I waited two weeks and did it anyways [without her permission], she actually learned to enjoy me getting my identity back - so many conundrums in the borderline behavior.