BPDFamily.com

After a lot of bibliotherapy I am confused.

I understand that setting  boundaries can help improve a relationship.  But most writings go on to temper expectations for a relationship with a BPD.

But if I am being my authentic self the way I handle ALL OTHER relationships is to insist on discussion and repair. My spouse has said things that can never be taken back and that no one should tolerate. And my spouse has hit me twice recently )and not before in 25 years). . I was not hurt but my spouse will not disavow that conduct or promise not to repeat it.

So I can improve behavior with boundaries but how do I heal?

To not be violent for 25 years and then begin ... has anything changed that you can think of?

For many of us, healing or closure is something we have to gift ourselves. There can be too much shame and defensiveness in a person suffering with BPD to cross that chasm. It takes a sense of self to make the distinction.

A pwBPD in treatment may be able to do so but not without.

Is your wife behaving as though nothing happened?

Before I came here I thought boundaries were placed on the one behaving improperly.  However people with BPD (pwBPD) resist boundaries.  Therefore, your boundaries will have to be your boundaries you place on yourself.  More specifically, your boundaries as stated to your spouse would be what you will do in response to poor behavior.  Read the two topics on Boundaries here on the Tools & Skills workshop board:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329744.0


My ex would be always trying to relentlessly lecture me on all my perceived faults, over and over again, at great length even into the wee hours of the night.  (I still remember ex declaring "we will fix this tonight" even for endless hours to 2 or 3 in the morning when I had to get up at 6 to go to work.  That was the opposite of productive.  And just one small reason, among many bigger ones, why we're no longer married.)  So probably in your case your concerns should be stated somewhat briefly and also not rehash past incidents overmuch.  (They probably are already but we weren't there and so this is just a general comment.)

Thanks, that’s exactly what happens. She’ll just go on and on until I just am finally done. Really validating thanks.

As far as changed, yes. She burned out working with a difficult population as a dietitian, quit her job (with my support) and started peri menopause. These thjngs amplified her identity issues and mood swings. And yes she acts as though nothing happened. When I confronted her she blamed me and said I knew she couldn’t hurt me (I’m big).

Sometimes I wonder if she has BPD or comorbidity of PTSD/adhd/peri menopause.

But when I come here the stories are so similar it’s every to me.

Complex ptsd, adhd, and bpd have behaviors and traits that overlap and so it can be difficult to tell if it’s one, the other, or a combination. A diagnosis isn’t so much necessary here; we focus on problem behaviors and ways that we can respond and be proactive in navigating the relationship and our own self care.

A year ago I was woken up to the fact that I am in an emotionality abusive relationship.  What gives me pause over leaving is if she is BPD and I haven’t set snd enforced boundaries and provided structure am I giving up too easily. Or is that my brain looking for an excuse to stay put. Or is the face that regardless of what’s going on the fact that she won’t seek help or acknowledge the hurt in any way all that I need to know?

I have found in my BPD relationships that there is no avoiding the fact I have to be the emotional leader.

It is much more challenging to do this in an intimate relationship.

Bill Eddy has a way of looking at the severity that might also be helpful:

1. Generally cooperative, not dangerous
2. Not cooperative, not dangerous
3. Not cooperative, dangerous

Dangerous can mean false allegations of child abuse, false allegations of sexual abuse, substance abuse, physical abuse, suicidal ideation, self-harm, vexatious litigation. People who are high-conflict personalities (by his definition) tend to have a target of blame, are persuasive blamers, and recruit negative advocates. This tends to be most apparent for pwBPD who work the legal system but it can exist without. Not all pwBPD are high-conflict personalities, but all HCIs have a personality disorder of some type.

If your wife is generally cooperative, not dangerous some of the skills here will be more effective than others.

What I found after leaving my ex (n/BPD + substance abuse) is that I was a shell of a person. Being in a string of difficult relationships and coming from a family of origin that was dysfunctional and pathologic meant I was not a prime candidate for being an emotional leader. I was not as emotionally stunted as my ex but I wasn't far off. When you're focused so much on other people it takes valuable attention away from you. There is often much growing to be done if your family of origin was emotionally abusive or negligent.

Many of us wait until we are so broken down by conflict and dysfunction that it's very challenging to turn around a ship we helped drive into the ground. Focusing on the dysfunction that was so out of control in my marriage meant not having a clue who I was, and that made it challenging to even begin the journey toward emotional leadership.I'm finally in a normal relationship and I think about issues in my marriage about 5 to 10 percent of the time. The rest goes toward growing and being a whole person. Before, I spent 100 percent of the time trying to figure out how to fix or save or rescue or control my spouse.

Maybe some people can change the relationship from inside it, especially if your partner is not dangerous. Mine was dangerous and my nervous system was so jacked up I suspect there wasn't really ever a choice to be made. We were destined for collapse. At the time, so deep into codependent delusion, I thought the survival of our marriage was entirely on my shoulders. Looking back, it was a sick relationship with one conclusion. The question was when it would end, not if.

That's why people often focus on what we're doing in the relationship. Not because it's our fault, but because to really make any kind of impact, you have to be your best self, or at least willing to do what it takes to get there.

It is odd to say this, but I feel like I did my ex a favor. I think the vulnerability and intimacy that comes with marriage was chronically dysregulating him. Marriage seemed to increase the emotional lability because there was just more ... material.

I don't like the terms low-functioning or high-functioning because it seems to mean holding down a job or not and while that's not nothing, it kind of dismisses the entirety of what life is like inside the home. Someone who has a job but experiences psychosis and wakes up in his own feces and yells at his wife for cleaning it up is high-functioning? How.

I am a repeat customer when it comes to BPD relationships. It was in my family of origin and I married/divorced a man with BPD. Lord knows what some of my former partners had but I seemed to be a great fit for difficult relationships with emotionally stunted men. My current (healthy, lovely) husband has an ex with BPD, and I am all but certain his adult daughter has BPD, in a more classic way than my ex.

What I learned at the tail end of my marriage, and what I really learned with SD26 is that these relationships die and fail on boundaries and validation. Support, empathy, truth (SET) can be sET or SEt or SeT. Often, for me, with SD26, it is seT.

We say boundaries are for us, but they are mostly for the health of the relationship. My relationship with SD26 is 99 percent boundaries (hard to do with a spouse) and the result is no more boot prints on my back. I can't believe I'm saying this but I think there might actually be respect there. The difference is that I owe her no intimacy. In a marriage, that's harder (but not impossible) to pull off because the needs are higher. 

A therapist helped me through the most minute details of what drove me nuts in my BPD relationship and we worked out how I would enact boundaries. Some of them were inconvenient to me -- that's the unspoken secret about boundaries. They're a ton of work. Sometimes they felt almost as challenging as the BPD behaviors, the difference is that boundaries tended to get easier over time.

I also don't expect anything from SD26, or from my ex (or family of origin for that matter). I cannot get validation from any of them because their needs for validation are astronomically higher. They are more driven and more intent on getting those needs met and expecting them to change only keeps me in a permanent state of misery. Just like our BPDers need validation, so do we. These relationships, these skills -- nothing is going to change if you aren't finding validation somewhere, even if it's a person you pay, like a therapist.

In NEA-BPD Family Connections, they like to say that you can't change your BPD loved one but you can change yourself, and those changes can change the pwBPD. That's the approach I took with SD26 and it did help. I made the mistake of over-validating her -- I didn't "validate the invalid" as they say here. I just did validated too much until I was in permanent doormat territory. I went from that to full-time boundaries and things started to change, but maybe all that validation helped pave the way for the boundaries, idk. I only asserted boundaries I knew were within my control, others took a backseat. And I didn't discuss my boundaries, I simply had them. Most were non-verbal. That made the target invisible.

SD26 is now somewhat deferential to me. When she visits, she seems to be trying to win me over. I see her cycle through different personas, trying different ones to see if something will punch through a boundary. I treat her like an adult and expect her to be accountable and for the most part, she is the most mature with me compared to the rest of her family, although only in short bursts. This is often punctuated by a need for me to validate that she's a brave/smart/creative/clever adult, and that's fine. I can offer that in limited quantities if I am not being actively aggressed against.

My advice is to stop focusing on her seeking help, and seek it for yourself. It won't be wasted, whether you stay or leave. I'm not quite grateful for the train wreck of my BPD marriage -- I wish my lessons weren't so expensive and painful, and I definitely wish they didn't come at the expense of my son's well-being. But no amount of money would be worth being the person I was in my BPD marriage.

Apologies for the length and directness. My BPD SD26 will be here in a few weeks and my nervous system is beginning to roil. I came back from visiting my disordered family of origin recently and the dysfunction sandwich is a bit close.

Don't beat yourself up for not knowing whether to stay or go. It simply means you don't yet have enough knowledge. Keep posting here, keep reading, keep sharing with people who care about you, who want to see you feel better.

It's anonymous here but people will get to know your story, and to know you. We understand why it's hard to decide and what it's like to both stay and go.

 :hug:

I am gratified to the point of tears by your time attention insight and affirmation. Thank you thank you.

And I’m sorry - who is SD26?

I'm in and out of the hospital with a serious medical problem, and yet uBPD H keeps bullying me for chores.  It's hard not to take it as personal.

 :hug:


Oops, my oversight. She's my stepdaughter (who has a BPD mother) and recently turned 26 (SD26). Everything that I failed to learn in my BPD marriage I ended up getting straight in my relationship with SD26. If I didn't get it sorted out she would've wrecked my current marriage.

I seem to be on a roll here. Hope this is helpful ...

Without treatment, a person suffering from BPD has near relentless needs that cannot be met by others.

If you don't have a self (ie BPD), then everything happening to you, including your own feelings, is caused by other people. There is no boundary between you and others, unless the other person asserts that boundary. I think SD26 tests boundaries and resists them at the same time she feels safe, but only when they are consistently and reliably solid. This might be the source of the respect I sense. She is more waif-like (but covertly aggressive) so this may be specific to the way her traits present.

One way to focus on healing is to imagine a cup. (This is the metaphor I used to help me in an almost minute-by-minute way. I was a knucklehead who really needed explicit instructions  :( Your mileage may vary).

I worked to fill my cup every night with a good sleep. If I didn't sleep well and my cup wasn't full, I took better care of myself the next day. By taking care, I mean things like go to the gym, take a walk, spend time with friends. People with BPD can empty a full cup pretty quick. If my cup was full, I could do more with SD26. If it wasn't full, I meditated in my room, went for a walk by myself, met friends for coffee. I had to do a lot of expectation management with SD26. While trying to drive a wedge between her dad and me, she simultaneously wanted full attention. Anything to not be alone. I could fill my cup in small drops (maybe more like not allow it to be drained) by stating the schedule for my day, how long I would be gone, when I would be back, what I would do when I got back, and then finally, the exact time I would be available. I started many conversations with, "I'd like to hear about this. I have ____ minutes before I have to do _____. Let's make a plan to talk when I can listen while cooking." It's exhausting, but it was better than screaming into a pillow while she jiggled the locked door to my bedroom, trying to get in. (Joking about the screaming but not about the door.)

In a BPD marriage, it's easy to have a cup run dry. If that's the case, job #1 is to figure out how to change that. Even a drop is a start. If you don't know what a full cup feels like, time to figure it out! Make that a top priority. Maybe it means seeing a therapist. I went to see one and had to make up an excuse for why I went (during my BPD marriage). That's ok -- tough times require tough decisions. Someone who empties your cup on a daily basis might not be trustworthy when it comes to filling it. You might need to guard information.

I'm starting to give myself pep talks as the arrival date of SD26 nears. I have much better boundaries but there's still healing to do, and a lot of that damage is not necessarily because of her. It predates her and it's the stuff I know is on my side of the street. People who lack boundaries are challenging for many people but for those of us who have decades dealing with those patterns it can feel extra draining.

I think it's harder to heal when you're coasting with an empty cup. I had to figure out what it felt like to feel ok before I could take on some of the healing. Then, living with SD26 and going through my 3rd rodeo with BPD, I feel like I maybe even reached that elusive emotional leadership that people referred to.

Is there anything going on right now you feel safe sharing here? Sometimes it helps just to get it into language.

Thanks so much!

Stuff going on:

This has gotten so much worse over the last 3 years. Why after 22 years?

I’ve now put up with things no one should. I’ll never get over them no matter how many times I read that you can’t take it personally. She hasn’t said “I love you” to me or even paid me a compliment in over 2 years. Why am I still here?

If I were the emotional leader and strong enough to endure intense ugly broadsides amd let them roll off me, I would STILL be modeling the dynamic, showing my daughters how to treat or be treated. If I pass this on to them it will truly break my heart.  

I have a therapist. She missed all this. It was some divorce lawyers in a coaching group listening to me talk about being shoved and trapped in the bathroom. They all just went off around my wife’s mental health amd turned me on to the fact of emotional abuse.

I don’t see a path to happiness. I just want the courage and conviction to leave. I work full time she’s home full time. Im afraid of how the custody of our kids will play out

It seems like a dream not spending 100% of my mental energy on this relationship.

If she won’t acknowledge any part of anything that’s going on, wont acknowledge when I tell her I’ve been hurt, won’t agree not to yell at me, swear at me or even hit me, what choice does that leave me? I can’t believe I typed that last sentence as a question. What the hells wrong with me? Why don’t I care more for myself?.

What a great question. Just asking it says a lot about where you are in your healing. Don't you think you must care about yourself to even ask it?

I don't think it's realistic to expect that insults won't cut deep.

Have you read this? https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/your-relationship-breaking-down

Yeah, I’ve read  Gottman. When I suggested we look at it together she told me she hose books werent for me, because there’s something far deeper wrong with me, I’m so far out of touch with my emotions she said she believes I’m on the autism spectrum. It was rough

My ex used to say similar things to me, and worse.

When I was out of the marriage and had nothing pushing against me, quite honestly there was some truth in what he said. At least for some things.

When you can look at these things in a safe environment, with supportive, skilled people encouraging you to get yourself sorted out, it can be a tremendous source of growth.

When it's someone blaming or accusing or shaming you for falling short, it cuts deep.

Hurt people hurt people, as they say.

Can't resist commenting on the autistic piece ... there are plenty of people on the spectrum who are in touch with their emotions, but those ways work different than people who are neurotypical, or not autistic. Some experts call it the double empathy conundrum. Meaning, people who are neurotypical lack empathy for the ways neurodiverse people experience emotion and vice versa.

My son is on the spectrum and he started to shut down hard in the face of n/BPDx's verbal abuse. That ended 10 years ago and S21, with the help of a great therapist and lots of extreme validation on my part, is more empathic than most neurotypical people I know.

Just saying that being autistic can be a compliment  *)

Sometimes what we see when we're seeing autistic people is our own lack of understanding (and often, empathy).

Sadly, so much of an acting-out persons behavior and words are way beyond just being negative.  They're consistently hurtful, unbelievably so, with just enough nice times for you to stay.

I recall my ex shouting such unbelievably hurtful things... I was effeminate... she wore the pants in the family... she would keep me up into all hours of the night demanding she would "fix this" when she knew I had to go to work a few hours later with little sleep... she told my toddler I didn't love him but she did... she threatened to disappear with our young child... it was endless.  The disparagement was verbal abuse but it left no visible cuts or bruises.

It hurts you because the other person intended to hurt you.  Sure, the other's personality is warped but that's no excuse, it still is hurtful and not right.

Thank you both of you.  The affirmation is a big deal.

And thanks for the way you expressed yourself on autism. To be clear it hurt because it was intended to be minimizing and a path of establishing control. “I k ow you better than you because I can see that you [_______] and you cannot.”  It could have been any word. It was the intent that hurt.

If I am autistic (or anything else for that matter) I would appreciate knowing that as constructive feedback. Then I would go get more and better tools for myself!

You're really insightful to recognize this.

I would go a step further and say that she wants you to feel as bad as she does.

Then she's less alone.

Plus, if she's putting you down then you aren't noticing her stuff. Now you have to work through what she's saying about you.

I watched my H's BPDx wife shame my step daughter (SD26) for trying to lose weight. H is a physician and was worried about her weight gain so young since he sees adults struggling with diabetes. SD26 was on medications that caused weight gain and she seems to struggle with binge eating. She put some effort into losing that weight and her BPD mom would shame her for eating salads and joining a gym. Who does that?

BPD misery loves company.

It is chilling to me watching her sabotage her kids when they show even a hint of succeeding at something.

This is a text exchange. In 25 years, she threw an easel at me 12 years ago. Left and we did therapy and I stayed.

A year ago she shoved me and wouldn’t let me out of the bathroom unless I pushed past her (which I didn’t do, she eventually went away) and then a month ago she hit me with a pillow repeatedly as hard as she could swing it, then punched me in the chest hard emough to leave a mark and then shoved me. I was never hurt but her rage was scary

 I wrote this text (among numerous similar ones):

I wrote above about all our interactions. Time alone is time spent telling me what I’ve done wrong or how I’ve disappointed. I just feel pushed away. I tell you over and over I can’t come back from all that and just be this warm loving guy. I feel hurt and unloved and my feelings I acknowledged.  I’m only human.

I tried to love you as best I could. Nothing I ever did or didn’t do was on purpose or intentional. Amd when I came up short I’ve tried, really tried to do better.  I tried and still try to listen and do better.

You hit me. You shoved me. You trapped me. You threw an book at my head. You won’t apologize. You won’t say you won’t do it again. And you have never apologized to me, for anything, ever. Instead you l tell Me it’s my fault you did those things to me. Amd you won’t even acknowledge it.

I ask to be treated with kindness and respect and you just say no.

You don’t yell at anyone else. You don’t make fun of anyone else in public. You don’t tell anyone else to PLEASE READ (https://bpdfamily.com/safe-site.htm) off.

Why am I special like that? Why? Why am I different than everyone else in the world? Have you ever closed all the windows to yell at anyone else? Have you ever hit or shoved oe thrown something at anyone else in the last 27 years? Screamed I hate you?
Why? Why me?

And I got this back:

Ok. I see thst you just absolutely refuse to hear me and won’t ever respond any other way. So that’s that.

Then me again:

But I tell you I understand. I tell you that I’m sorry. I tell you that you should have the things you want from me.
Why can’t you just say I’m sorry I hit you? It’s so easy to say. Why do you withhold that?

And her:

So you’re not hearing me or doing anything for this relationship…you’re just doing what you want and need….I’m still not a part of it for you

You are in a close, obligated relationship.  Married.  In private scenarios away from public eyes.  Spouse feels free to let loose and do things spouse would never do (not yet) in public.  And nothing you say or do - short of ending the relationship - gives you any leverage or weight in your attempt to reason.

Spouse knows what she's doing.  Shutting windows to yell privately?  A reasonably normal person would try to behave well both in private as well as public.

Note the sentence in bold emphasis:

Thank you for this. I get so confused because all this stems from her genuine pain. So I feel a confusing obligation amd guilt overlaid on my reaction that this is not okay.

Thx for focusing on the windows. Every time she does that it I find it unsettling. But couldn’t put my finger on exactly why amd also there’s this part of me that’s so conditioned that I think that closing the windows to yell is just prudent.

Often there are triggers to behavior changes.  You mentioned she quit work a few years ago.  Do you think she would behave better if she went back to work?  Was that about the time when perimenopause became a topic of discussion?  Did something else change, perhaps with the children?

It has long been known that a long list of triggers (varying depending on the person) worse behaviors can be preparing for vacations, upcoming graduations, weddings, birthdays, anniversaries, visits with your relatives, etc.


What are the approximate age ranges of the kids?  If they're already teens, then they will be close to being adults by the time a divorce concludes.  Whatever their ages, you do have to try for the best ( = least bad) temp order because our temp orders are longer than "temporary".

Do the children have their own counselor?  A counselor not controlled or influenced by their disordered parent?  My lawyer told me family court loves counseling.  A good counselor is worth his or her weight in gold, so to speak.

It's eerie to read messages that could've come out of my own past. And similar types of physical abuse.

n/BPDx used pillows to hit me, often when I was asleep. I think it shows a degree of self-restraint  yet being out of control at the same time. Telling someone your spouse hit you with a pillow can seem less severe than throwing a rock at your head but the intent is the same: they are trying to dominate, coerce, control, bully, intimidate.

As to why she cannot hear what you're saying in your texts, that has a lot to do with BPD.

People with BPD have no solid sense of self. Their need for validation is all consuming.

Many of us come into these relationships with equally high needs for validation (it's why many of us are susceptible to love-bombing).

Two people who desperately need validation makes for a rocky relationship. Especially when the BPD person has a near bottomless need. You will never win that contest.

You say in the text messages that you need something. She responds that the problem is that you have needs at all.

There is a personality theory that our early relationship dynamics get encoded in our brain. An internal map is made. Young children create summaries based on early repeated relationship dynamics. These summaries serve the basis for later relationships.

Your wife's summaries are stunted by trauma or neglect or whatnot. She is very, very stuck. She may be stuck in a more stuck place than you or any of us can imagine. She's not on equal footing.

Meanwhile, in her dysfunction, she is badly damaging you, something you are susceptible to due to your own summaries and encoding.

Sometimes, when people with BPD are in a full-blown dysregulation, the best thing is to simplify your message so it can be heard even if her brain is flooded in emotion. Words like: Stop. No. Enough. Go. Leave. Said calmly, firmly, assertively, like talking to a child who is in an out-of-control tantrum.

It can feel weird to do this. You are looking at a grown @ss woman who is intimidating you, yet you're speaking to her like a child.

I was a small female in an abusive relationship holding up my hand and saying STOP repeatedly to an intoxicated, large, mentally ill and abusive man. And it worked.

Someone trying to trap you in a bathroom is coming from a place of extreme fear and rage and isn't in her right mind.

In these relationships, we have to be the ones to diffuse these moments because they can't. If she doesn't walk away, give her a clear direction on what to do so she doesn't make things worse: Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop.

Honestly, I don't know if it will work. It could make it worse. I learned it in the book about verbal abuse written by Patricia Evans.

At a minimum, know that your job in this struggling relationship is to stabilize these moments. If that's hard to do -- and believe me, I understand that it is hard -- then that means you need to focus on what's missing to get you there. Therapy for partners in BPD relationship should be written into the marriage contract. These are challenging relationships for therapists, and they can be impossible for spouses without a set of skills and outside support, especially if the pwBPD is not in treatment.

This feedback means the world to me. Thank you.

My kids are 11 and 13.

My wife has twice had changes that challenged her view of herself. The first was attending graduate school. It was highly stressful for her. She was just awful and I moved out. She begged me to come back and finally agreed to counseling. I came back and we had two kids. That was 15 years ago.

The second was quitting her stressful health care job. It was dragging her down, she had major compassion fatigue. With my full support she quit, the idea being she would figure out what was next. She’s been angry ever since. When I pointed this out she said i was making it about the money. I told her to go find something even if it didn’t pay. She said only now without the distraction of work did she truly see how unhappy she was, mostly with me. COVID and at home school poured gas on all that. It’s really been awful for 3 years now.

She started talking about perimenopausal symptoms shortly after she quit. So that too.

Really insightful post here. Thank you. I'm out three years and still trying, trying to *understand* what happened. I can't understand, but this was really helpful.

It reminds me of a time, in public in a deli of a fancy grocery store, where I just said to her "you know, when you don't answer my calls or texts for days or even a week at a time, it's hurtful and dehumanizing and confusing, especially when you say you love me" and she went off on me for 55 minutes, putting me down, diminishing every aspect of who I am, getting very angry...the usual, you know. She let me know she was doing it on purpose, "spending time with her friends since they understand her life".

I then said, very calmly, "Please stop. _______, please stop. Please stop_____, please stop" as she continued on, talking over me.

She then stormed away from the store, leaving me sitting there stunned. I took this as she was breaking up with, since she admitted to ignoring me for months and seemed to hate me so much, and everything about who I am.

She texted me the next day "talk tomorrow?". I didn't respond that day, since I figured she'd broken up with me and I was really hurt by her words.

1.5 days later she sent me a vicious email telling me how cruel and punishing I am.

Anyway, thank you for that beautiful post, it's really helpful to me, and others I'm sure.

Of course  you can't understand.  These acting-out PDs, of which Borderline is one, have the effect of being focused on projecting onto others, rather than focused inward (acting-in).

Plus, everyone has various personality traits, and they vary from one person to the next.  That's fine, since we're not robots off an assembly line.  However, if those personality traits veer too far from normal values, then it becomes a personality disorder.

The pwBPD in your life has traits that have strayed so far from the norm, as in "acting out", that they're not only abnormal, they're also hurtful.  How can you understand (in a logical, normal way) something that is abnormal, dysfunctional and illogical?

So you haven't failed.  You just have to accept that what you've experienced just will never make sense in a normal way.

Innumerable textbooks have been written to describe the personality disorders, they list the behavior patterns but still it doesn't make normal everyday common sense.  Accept that.

The posts here have been profoundly insightful and influential. After therapy, books, coaching, talking to professionals, podcasts, it has been here that all of this has finally gelled for me, at least in terms of internalizing my understanding. Repeatedly people have weighed in offering advice based on their experiences and the huge difference maker - sharing episodes of the exact same behavior. For me that’s all so helpful. Even above with the spouse saying “my friends understand me” which I get all the time.

The thoughts in the last posts about how to view behavior are amazing for me.

I am contemplating divorce and this helps with that. But I’ll be tied to my spouse forever as we share children.

The perspective I have fought myself to obtain has been facilitated here.

Thank you thank you for your time helping me here. And I’m sure I’ll have losses of clarity and struggles and I’ll be back I’m sure and hope someday I’ll be able to pay it forward

When you learn what is happening to someone struggling with BPD, and you try to make sense of those behaviors and how they impact parenting, it can lead you to the best version of yourself.

There is so much more to unlock here than what is BPD.

After my divorce, I was pretty clear on the PD side of things. It was living with a stepdaughter with BPD that immersed me in the full suite of skills.

Whether you divorce or not, whether you focus on healthy development for you or your kids, there is the potential for deep healing here.

 :hug:

Glad this is all helpful, AlleyOop. It's a process, a long process in my case, that ebbs and flows. But gradually the truth of the matter starts to sink in. Even with things as obvious as verbal abuse, real abuse that includes name calling and put downs and belittling and yelling, it's still HARD to understand that this is not acceptable. It's just not. But, in my case it was always in my mind 'I must have done something to deserve this', or 'She is really upset, and it makes no sense, but I want to make her feel better'.

And yes, "my friends understand my life!".

And also, when she was under the weather a bit with a cold and I called/texted for days asking her for what she might need or want- willing to do anything at all, not wanting to just show up because she is so private and triggered around her house and privacy (she says her ex stalked and scared her)...she repeatedly said she needed nothing. I started making suggestions (run to the store for. you? back rub or neck rub?) which she rejected, then ...went awol and didn't respond for a few days. When we finally reconnected she was MAD, told me she 'turned off her phone', because I "didn't take care of her". When I reminded her that I offered many times and even made suggestions, she mocked the suggestions I made and told me "my friends don't need to ask, they just know and do it!"

these are mind reading expectations, coupled with ghosting, and then blaming me for failing.

A common thing, you can't win. You didn't even know you were in a competition.

After 25 years of marriage, with the abuse intensifying over the past 3-5, I need to leave the marriage. 

I have worked very hard to be more honest with myself and with her about my feelings.

In this conversation though, I am conflicted as I am unable to be truly honest. I guess I can say, which I’ve said except to add that “and for these reasons I am divorcing you:”

“I’ve come to realize I must accept the full spectrum of you, the good and the bad as a fully integrated person. I cannot have one without the other. You aren’t working on yourself. You won’t be accountable for thjngs I’ve asked you to account for. You don’t think your actions or words are in any way problematic. You refuse to work together on the relationship.”

That alone will result in an unresponsive torrent of countering.

After 25 years I wish I could be honest and add: “I think you have a mental illness. You are both emotionally and physically abusive to me. In addition to ending this marriage it is affecting your relationships with your kids, your friends and money.”

I am really struggling to start this conversation and start the domino effect of emotions on kids, family, friends in addition to me. I’m
Just so tired and out of energy. But I cannot take the criticism and tone anymore.

Hey AlleyOop23;

First of all,  :hug:

I know this isn't what you wanted for your marriage or family. I'm really sorry it's gotten to this point.

If I'm reading correctly, you and your W have two daughters, 11 & 13? Correct me if I missed anything there.

Do you have a timeline you want to meet for having that conversation?

With kids in the mix, it can pay to slow things down a bit to be extra strategic. If you're able to tap the brakes, maybe we can support you in finding a way to get your ducks in a row so that if, like you suspect, she has a big reaction to the announcement, she doesn't take it out on the kids, either directly (saying things to them) or indirectly (impulsively road tripping/moving out with them).

What do you think?

I am all ears. I’ve read about divorcing a HCP spouse and I understand anyone looking in would give the safest advice. I am unconcerned about her moving out or taking off with the kids. I suppose you never know.

I am more concerned about the time between when I start the process and when I move out. I do have a lawyer and I live in a “best interests of the child” state as opposed to a presumptive 50/50 physical custody state. She’s been a stay at home parent for 4 years. I work full time.

My wife will not agree to a temporary 50/50 arrangement. I risk a temporary unbalanced custody moving into a permanent arrangement.

The kids need time with me. I’m their dad, I’m stable. I can’t put us all in a situation where I end up with far less time. I’m not looking for it to be “fair” just close to even to give them balance. This issue has helped keep  me stuck for about 18 months.

Have you consulted some family law attorneys?  (Of course, privately and confidentially. You have that right.)  Consultations are inexpensive and do not obligate you to hiring them such as by paying  retainer.

With consultations you'll get an overview of your states laws, how your local court handles divorces, what strategies might be needed in a high conflict divorce, etc.

I ask because I've heard that some states are starting to default to 50/50 unless there's good reason otherwise.  For all we know, your state might be one of them.


For the past decades your spouse likely believed herself the family Authority.  Well, news alert, in court the judge is The Authority.  (Admittedly, court is often laid back and non-reactive but the Big Guy is the judge, not your spouse.)

Thanks - I’ve consulted two. It’s moving that way but it’s no guaranty.

Can you say a little more about that? Every pwBPD is different, so what are some things you see or think that land you there? And/or, is that presuming that you have to be the one to move out of the current house?


My first thought is to set up counseling for your kids now, whatever it takes, vs waiting until after the divorce. If you're concerned about that "tipping your hand" to your W, do either or both of the kids have anything going on now that might work as cover? I.e., academic issues, social issues, ADD/ADHD, upcoming change in school, etc? If the kids can build a solid relationship with a counselor now, then they'll have someone to turn to if/when Mom starts telling them "Dad is to blame for everything going wrong in "our" lives".

Second thought is start working your connections/resources to figure out how you'd manage child care with a 50/50 parenting time split. I'm assuming kids are in school normal hours during the school year, so that means figuring out rides to your place after school and rides to school in the morning, yes? Do you know their friends' families, do you have family in town, can they ride the school bus...? If you can get school year care covered, that just leaves summer break, and again, you may need to leverage summer camps, day camps, kids' friends' families, your family, faith group connections, etc.

It's really important to pivot out of the mindset of "I work fulltime and she's their mom, so I guess I can't have 50/50 parenting time". It is possible even though it takes some problem-solving and legwork ahead of time.


Smart of you to recognize that temporary arrangements can morph into permanent arrangements even if that wasn't the plan. If you can ride out staying in the home -- don't assume you "have to" be the one to move out! -- you will likely be in a better position to work out parenting time/custody. What does your L say about staying in the home, or which parent "has to" move out?


OK, good stuff. I think you're on to something here, which is that it is possible to "grudgingly trade" aspects of custody/parenting time that on the surface look "unfair", and that your W will view as her "winning" or "beating you", but really are long-term wins for you and the kids. You aren't stuck with accepting boilerplate arrangements just to get it done or make it easier.

Mediation is likely part of the process (check with your L if mediation can happen post-announcement but when both of you are still living in the home). Think about your W's personality and what she values. Does she want to be seen as "more than you", perfect mom, does she want "photo worthy" times with the kids, are certain holidays important, etc... In our case, there were certain holidays that H knew would likely either be more important to Mom, or would inevitably create conflict if we tried to split every other year. So, we never have July 4th with the kids, but the PP protects H's ability to spend time with the kids either the 3rd or 5th. Also, we never have Christmas Day with the kids, but we are guaranteed Christmas Eve every year. Stuff like that. But don't propose that right off the bat! Save it up your sleeve for negotiation.

Other approaches could include some way of making it look like Mom has more PT during the school year by making school hours her parenting time. Yeah, that means that some school year holidays the kids are with Mom (unless you guys explicitly come up with a school holiday arrangement), but most of the time the kids would be protected by being at school on Mom's PT -- but she would look like she's "winning" by having all those hours. Then school breaks would be an even split.

Or, in terms of decision-maker/tie-breaker role, are there ones where you'd be okay with Mom being ultimate tie breaker? Vision care? Dental care? Orthodontics? Religion? She may feel like she's "winning" if all you get is shared on physical and legal, plus sole mental health, and she gets more sole decision maker roles. Or, maybe she'd respond OK to you guys having an even split of tiebreaker roles: she gets religion, dental, & vision, you get legal, mental health, & medical. Just depends on her personality.

I think my biggest focus would be on somehow getting counseling for the kids proactively.

...


Just to make sure I'm tracking, are you saying that your state is moving towards presumptive 50/50 but it's no guarantee?

This is really valuable advice thank you. It gives me some good ideas on how to get this all done.

As for the house, it just makes sense for me to leave. First, I don’t want it. Second I own a professional services business I started while married. A quick back of the napkin sketch of assets roughly puts the home amd home equity in her column and the value of my business in mine. And then some arrangement on retirement and she technically qualifies for permanent maintenance - we’ll see.

When she’s made declarations about splitting up she has always said the kids will stay in the house and she and I will move in and out. I am absolutely not doing that but it does provide some insight into her thinking.

Yes I’d want to give mediation a shot.

And to be more clear. The first lawyer I talked to a ways back told me I was going to be an every other weekend dad. I messed me up for months. I finally got a second and then a third opinion. Lawyers 2 and 3 believe the trend is for courts to recognize it’s not necessarily best for the kids to lock the dad out. But they generally agree 50/50 probably wont happen if she doesn’t agreed to it.

I’ve been on the winning side of privilege my whole life in ways I’m sure I can’t even see. And most women are more involved. But this one - that fathers are not presumptively entitled and yes expected not do 50/50 is a real gut punch. It’s kept me stuck in an unhealthy marriage out of fear.

I have to just finally accept I can’t control it and jump with the intention of doing my best.

Thanks again for what you wrote. Invaluable

Her wishful thinking doesn't work since it would leave the kids in a mixed scenario, for example, what if she refused to leave when it was your time to arrive?  as in, "a child is ill and I have to stay longer", etc.  This also is impractical since it would be expensive with three homes required, yours, kids' and Ex's...


I have a funny story about this 'truism'...

I didn't do this but learned after my divorce that sometimes people are advised to consult with the most aggressive family law attorneys just to make sure they are no longer available to represent your spouse.

It would've been hard for me to do that where I lived because of the density. But if you're able to ask around about aggressive attorneys and keep hearing the same names, that might help you learn who they are.

I remember when my attorney discovered who she was dealing with she was relieved. n/BPDx's lawyer was a father's rights attorney but he was also genuinely concerned about kids. He would probably make a fantastic lawyer for many of the dads here. Eventually he filed a motion to withdraw from n/BPDx's case, probably because he put two and two together that his client was incapable of putting the needs of his kid first.

Had to add:


I'm always so curious about this. I'm a researcher and took some time to do research on this years ago. It's been a while so I can't remember the exact states where the research was done, nor can I remember the percentages. But the findings were along the lines of this: it is true that more women get more time than men. However, more women ask for that time. In states where more men contested custody, they were just as likely to get more time as women.

Meaning, when men contest custody, they are just as likely as women to get more time.

There was also some speculation that lawyers perpetuate the bias that men will not get equal time. If lawyers say to dads "you aren't going to get 50/50" then obviously fewer men are going to get 50/50 if they were counseled to not push for it.

In the state where I divorced EOW +1 (every other week plus one weeknight) was not uncommon. And my state was one of the ones that still has alienation of affection laws. Meaning, it was weighted towards men.

It's hard to keep this in mind because our emotions are on tilt, especially during the early stages. But divorce and custody is essentially winding down a contract. You are negotiating. It's ok to start high. Your L may have a sense of what will irritate a judge and that's worth listening to. But your L should also be able to say (if he or she knows) what is on the high end of reasonable given what kind of documentation you have, and other things considered (like what the judge is like, if that's known).

Some judges are so technical that they all but remove common sense and instinct from their rulings. Others shoot from the hip. Mine had rotated off the bench in juvenile courts and was particularly sensitive to parents who don't do the right thing for their kids. My lawyer also hosted a yearly event for lawyers and judges and knew many of them personally. She was better as a trial attorney than paperwork. If you expect things will go to court, which for many HCP they do, then having someone who is really good at litigating is super helpful. My lawyer dropped a bunch of balls on the paperwork side of thing so I caught a lot of typos and oversights in drafts but that was preferable to me than having her balk in court.

Your brain is going to hurt as you prepare for this and it may feel truly intolerable to wait, but you will get through it. The feeling of walking into your own place without the tension and dread and fear and revulsion is priceless. And you have this board, and you found it early in your journey  :wee:

One day my son and I walked into our new apartment three stories up that smelled like carpet glue with virtually no furniture, and he just leaned into me and hugged me. He didn't have to say why. I knew.

You'll get there  :hug:

This is interesting to me and I actusllly moved on from a firm after the attorney I got assigned to immediately went to work on my custody expectations. I thought - we’ll if you don’t think I’m going to get more then I won’t.


There was also some speculation that lawyers perpetuate the bias that men will not get equal time. If lawyers say to dads "you aren't going to get 50/50" then obviously fewer men are [/b]going to get 50/50 if they were counseled to not push for it. [/u]

Your brain is going to hurt as you prepare for this and it may feel truly intolerable to wait, but you will get through it. The feeling of walking into your own place without the tension and dread and fear and revulsion is priceless. And you have this board, and you found it early in your journey  :wee:

One day my son and I walked into our new apartment three stories up that smelled like carpet glue with virtually no furniture, and he just leaned into me and hugged me. He didn't have to say why. I knew.

You'll get there  :hug:

Thanks. I burst into tears when I read this. Only someone going through this could make a comment about coming into a house and immediately becoming tense.

I recall my lawyer warning me, "Are you sure you want a Custody Evaluation?  It could backfire on you."  I was in the second of two temp orders where I was the alternate weekend dad.  I read the CE's initial report months before the Trial was to start.  He recommended equal time and if that failed then I should get custody.  During that time my then-stbEx did more antics, surely making herself look even worse, but his final report was sealed on Trial Day.  I got my equal time and, yes, that did fail but court refused to unseal that final report or follow the CE's conclusion.  Court said it was stale, legally too old to apply.  However, I did get full custody and a few years later I also got majority time, but only during the school year.

So I agree with LnL, as the stable and reasonable parent, stand up for your child and your parenting.

AlleyOop23, I get where you're coming from with having to navigate being the full-time working parent and what you're up against there.

I was thinking more about creative ways to "let" your W have >50/50 parenting time (notice NOT >50/50 custody -- that's a really important distinction to make) on paper, while having it end up being more equal or in your favor in practice. And, of course, balancing that with the fact that you have to work (I'm assuming something like a 9-5 during the day?)

One sample schedule that looks like the other parent gets more time could be:

Parent A's parenting times are: Sunday 7pm to Monday 9am, Monday 3pm to Tuesday 9am, Thursday 3pm to Friday 9am (50 hours)
Parent B's parenting times are: Monday 9am to Monday 3pm, Tuesday 9am to Thursday 3pm, Friday 9am to Friday 3pm (66 hours)
Rotating weekends are split evenly between Parent A and Parent B, and are defined as: Friday 3pm to Sunday 7pm (52 hours)

On paper, if your wife is Parent B, she would be "winning" with 57% of the PT. However, most of those hours are during school times, so your kids would be in a neutral place.

Food for thought as you start planning negotiating. Like LnL mentioned, don't actually propose what you want right off the bat. Start high and work down from there. So this plan wouldn't be the first thing you offer, but it could be your "backstop" or "absolute minimum". That's something to tell your L... not your W.

Post divorce my son was in elementary and middle school.  I had 50/50 time with a 2-2-3 schedule.  I worked and much of the time so did my Ex, so we used day care before and after school.  Sure, she freaked out every once in a while but overall it was manageable.

One thing that was made clear in the order was that my time was my time, just as her time was her time.  She couldn't claim my time just because I was working or whatever.  The phrases I used for the parenting plan was that school and daycare were equivalent to my personal parenting and as long as I provided caregivers such as daycare, etc then she couldn't zoom in to take over.

This board has really been a boon to me.
Thank you thank you all.
I considered starting a new thread for a slightly related question. One of the things that initially paralyzed me, and then as I got a little more aware it just gave me pause is my inability to answer the question “what do I want out of the rest of my life?”

I had so much vitality and excitement all those years ago. But as my codependent self sank into this relationship and my spouse kept subtly telling me how bad I was at life I just stopped trusting myself. So one hard part of leaving this marriage is envisioning my next life. Even having goals.

I was working with a business coaches puzzling over my lack of vision about a year and a half ago when another person in the group just ripped off the band aid and said it’s because you’re in an emotionally abusive marriage (and them proceeded to masterfully demonstrate that she was right about the abuse). So as I’ve read and learned and talked and been in therapy I’ve come to believe that part of me has just been taken away. She’s done it and I’ve let her.

This all happened at the same time I was diagnosed with GAD and ADHD. Once on medication I realized another part of my drive was trying to outrun my fear.

All That insight is great. Does anyone relate to that? Any thoughts on getting it back? Or maybe even forming it for the first time?

It’s just so strange because from the outside by almost anyone’s objective measure I am a professional and business success. I’m a really good dad. I’m an okay friend (I’ve let myself be isolated).

Just throwing this out there. Also if any of you think I should put this somewhere else please
Advise.

Hello Alleyoop,

Sorry to hear that you have been going through a difficult time. Foreverdad and kells76 have provided a lot of invaluable advice.

To add to that, I will say that in some cases you might have to consider getting a more assertive lawyer as while going through the process to advocate when you might feel confused or conflicted.

Remember you do not have to start with fair and balanced but aim to end  there. Mediation might work for some but I fear it might be counterproductive with BPD.

Also, get as many consults from lawyers as you need before you feel comfortable and reassured.

Lastly, for what it is worth, now over two years after I started divorce proceedings, I have started to slowly come out of my shell and reengage with my own interests and focus on my child. That being said, my child is not school going age, and I had to act during crisis moments for my child and my safety. Perhaps, if you can, you could consider slowing down and reflecting on each aspect as you decide how you wish to proceed.

Relationships with BPD spouses are even more enmeshed than usual and it is a process to really untangle it.

I pray that you are able to get the clarity you need.

Find out why her. Why did you pick her and stay with her, and feel bad about yourself when she was the one abusing you. That's key. Get to the other side of that question, let the answer bring you to your knees, and you can have yourself back and then some.

Look for all the behaviors you have that help you avoid feeling pain.

Not suffering, pain.  

Speaking for myself, I had to cry a river, something I stopped doing because what good did it do (in FOO). There is a lot of intelligence in those feelings. When we put them in a box it seals us off from a lot of intuition and instinct and spontaneity and joy and yes, pain.

But those emotions, they have to be felt. It was a now or never time and divorce made it easier to deal with it once and for all. Use your divorce to be a mess and then apply love to clean yourself up. Treat yourself like someone you love to pieces (the most painful feeling of all!)

My divorce opened up a phase of raw emotion I almost miss. Almost. To feel that much, to be that alive, to slow everything down so it's all that mattered -- what a gift. A messed up gift, but a gift nonetheless. I hated every minute of it, and needed every second.

I was starting to experience professional success during my divorce. All that was there, except for genuine enjoyment. After healing from my divorce, it is there times ten, and I am fully engaged, finally.

These scripts in our heads, they rob us of so much.

Hope this personal share will help on my 26 year marriage where it used to happen - but more excessively after 23 years of marriage.  At year 24 I reached the limit and got help for myself and made changes.

My Scenario: Used to be frequently yelled at for 2-3 hours, would get locked/blocked into the bathroom, closet, bedroom or my arm grabbed and physically restrained from leaving as she raged and swore at me.  I was the only one she did this to because pwBPD must have a “favorite person.”  Somehow everything always ended up being my fault, and I would apologize profusely.  Lots of crazy making stream of consciousness and screaming finished with “do you have anything to say” of which I was so punch drunk I couldn’t even string the thoughts together.  (Sound familiar?)

Now it doesn’t happen anymore.  What happened?
1) I took myself to counseling - learned about co-dependency, and self respect I had lost along the way trying to keep the peace and being a nice forgiving Christian “unconditional love” guy.

2) Put a first boundary down - I will no longer be physically restrained in a room, or blocked in a room when we fight.

3) Put a second boundary down - I will listen but my threshold is 20 mins.  I will take a break away from her and the situation at that time.  If it is still important- we can pick it up again later.

4) Put a third boundary down - I will not tolerate being sworn at or name called.  If she cannot respect me, I don’t have to be a part of the conversation.

5) Put a 4th boundary down - explained that this type of dialogue is unhealthy and I can’t take it anymore - something has to change.  (She insulted me and said I should get counseling - to which I retorted I have been in counseling for 6 months - I know what I want and it isn’t this.)

6) deployed the SET methodology during her rants and validated her feelings (not her actions)

The result was awful the first 3-4 weeks, lots of cursing and raging, but I figured - it was happening anyway- now it is only 20 min! She never reopened conversations after they ended.  She went to counseling, realized she had a problem and started to try to regulate her emotions because she doesn’t want to lose me.  The time and frequency of rages have died out over 3 months and it has been probably 3 months since a rage.  When the last rage happened - it was short.  With my new boundaries, I won’t tolerate her coming un-hinged, I will just remove myself from the situation.

It takes guts - but you are the one who will have to build the boundaries, and she will try to break them.  It will get ugly, blame it on you, call you names, before it gets better. (Extinction bursts).  However - in my situation it did get better. 

In yours - how long can you tolerate being in an emotionally abusive situation?  Unconditional love doesn’t exist in marriage without respect and boundaries.  (Love, Honor, Cherish till death…. Etc.).   If she is yelling and screaming, that is not honoring or cherishing you.  You have rights to how you should be treated.  It is perfectly ok to insist upon them.  That will make the marriage healthy.  Safety and security is a basic human need. Everyone should insist upon it.

For me - rage problem solved (for now) - still working hard on building back trust.

Thank you. I’ve read about this approach and wondered if it could work. If this was the extent of the issue I think I could make it work. There are other components to this relationship that make it unhealthy.

I am wondering if you’ve had any of these issues:

1. Constant blame and criticism. The put-downs, the little jokes.

2. Regular incompetence references. She is constantly referring to me as incompetent.

3. Impulsive spending.

4. Glass half full. She is so negative- everything for her is awful and just about to get worse. Even though we objectively live a gilded life.

If the only thing I needed to manage was the rages I think I could handle that. It’s playing whack a mole on all the other issues. Amd all of them play out in front of my kids.

Im not perfect. She’s not a complete villain. She’s a good mother.  And all these issues are because she needs help she isn’t getting. I get all that.

Anyway - was any of this present and is now managed? I think it’s the constant shower of blame that gets me most. That and walking on eggshells.

Unfortunately- yes.  My wife has 9 of 9 characteristics on the requirements.  3 are at least in remission for now.  She also has co-morbidities of ADHD, CPTSD, Anxiety, Depression, and impulsiveness in spending, online gaming, and eating.  She is an excellent mom and when regulated can actually be fun to be around.   That is what makes things suck in relationships like this.  Jeckle and Hyde.

The name calling, belittling, micromanagement, not being able to do anything right (claims of incompetence) etc. were intense against me.  We live a gilded life and she has conservatively blown 2 years of salary on impulse buys and online gaming.  I had to build stronger boundaries and build a stronger respect for what I am not willing to tolerate.  THAT was not easy as it requires accepting risk, respectfully holding your ground for what is right, and realizing that respect must be two ways in a healthy marriage.  Spending problems have been limited by actions I have taken.. (see my other post)
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=355975.msg13196358#msg13196358

She two months ago deeply and sincerely apologized and that is why we are still married.  She is dedicated in therapy now, and she is taking it seriously and making positive strides.  There are emotional mishaps, but they are now 3/10 instead of 10/10.

The depression glass half empty I can fully empathize with.  I am a glass half full person - it can be frustrating.  Nothing is ever enough.  The sun can be shining and beautiful- but it is too bright.  It can be a cozy cloudy day, but it is too dark. She is working to reprogram her thoughts - but it is not easy.

It takes a lot - but there is literally NOTHING you can do to make her happy.  She must do this for herself.  The faster you stop trying to make her happy, and the more you request her to be more healthy and get help and that you are not qualified to fix this or make her feel better  - it has a chance to get better.  (Recommend Read CoDependency No More - Melody Beatty).  Being in a relationship like this slowly makes people unknowingly co-dependent.  Good thing is - you can fix it and it can be undone.  It isn’t a disease/personality disorder - it is a mindset you slip into.

For me counseling: (myself - first 2-3 months to work on me)

Then her:
First 3-6 months of her counseling - realizing yes she has issues - but lots of blaming of me and anger towards me.  Thinking it is mostly me with the problem.

Next 6 months - finally realizing it isn’t mostly my fault - but a lot of deep seated issues never dealt with and a new willingness to tackle her deep seated demons from childhood. 

Now - tackling a long list of items driving the behavior one by one through EMDR.  (Sounds voodooish I know - but I can tell you it is working on reprogramming her responses, and minimizing a lot of big negatives)

I will keep you posted - but hopeful.  My experience is not like everyone and my pwBPD is high functioning.  I am sure that makes a difference.

I could do this with you all day. I’d say my spouse is 4 or 5 out of 9. But I’m obviously not trained. Comorbidities ADHD, complex PTSD, perimenopause

Everything EVERYTHING you are writing is my existence (except the gambling). And yes she can be so damn fun. Jeckyl and Hyde for sure.
I’ve been referred to and read the Beatty book. Yep, that’s me in there.
The one huge difference is that as I carve out limits on what I’ll accept she continues to blame me for all of it. She won’t acknowledge she needs help, she’s expressly and specifically not sorry.

I think I’m just enabling all this behavior by still being here. If she was getting help amd dealing with it I’d do whatever it took. But instead she just blames me. She hit me once and classically said it was my fault for making her do it.

Well - one additional boundary I made which really put the shock and awe of my seriousness about the fact I didn’t like it.

I started to sleep in the guest bedroom.  At first “to get a better night’s sleep” and then more and more days.  She finally confronted me and I told her I don’t feel emotionally safe around her, and the separation is allowing me to think, and feel safe.  She can continue to do what she wants, but that doesn’t mean I have to be a part of it.

She was mad, hurt, but I told her I am sorry, I can’t help her with those feelings - but she can talk to a counselor just like me if she wants.  I don’t feel safe.

Anyway - that is my path.  The separate bedroom helped me gain courage to stand up for myself.

As to the hitting, that should also be a boundary line not crossed.  You just have to decide what you will do if she does it, and stick to it.  (I.e. immediately stop the conversation and leave the room and not discuss or engage in anything further with her for several hours).  NOBODY does anything requiring to be physically hit in retaliation.  Feel free to build that boundary - you are worth it.

Oh and the Beatty book - she wrote in one chapter a long list of characteristics and asked the reader to keep track of all the ones that applied.  I did, and then slowly worked to undo each of them like she recommends.  It was helpful for me.

Everything I’ve read, all consistent with my experience, points to the idea that resolution cannot be attained and that I cannot deliver an understanding of what I think or how I feel that I should expect will be received well or even taken in.

So after receiving another series of angry lectures and 14 inch text diatribes on me and how I lack, all while I’m silently planning to divorce her, I want to make her understand
 
Anyway – what do I do?  If there’s no point in responding then why bother? Just send an email about how I’m going to try to treat her with respect and kindness no matter what, keeping my head up and doing what’s best for the future and just getting through this?  It no longer serves me. I know she doesn’t care what I write.  Anything I send her is just ignored. If I feel better having sent it, and created my own record of a version of things, is that valid?  why don’t I just say I’m done being savaged and mischaracterized and blamed and criticized and I’m hiring a lawyer and looking for mediators and it doesn’t matter when you come up with yourself I’m just over the way you treat me and you aren’t interested in repair or resolution and you aren’t accountable for being physically abusive and you blame me for the abuse I received and even proclaimed that based on the damage I’ve done for 25+ years there’s nothing wrong with anything you’ve done for the past 3 years and when I tell you that you need to commit to not doing it again you won’t and just go back into blaming me and you’ve lost any respect you ever had for me and won’t even just treat me like a normal human being and this relationship is toxic and it is screwing up the kids.

There's a phrase for this... negative engagement.  You can do a search on our site (above on the green bar is "Search Threads") for other references.

From your post you appear to already know further discussion won't lead her to agree with you, rather it will just enable or encourage her to further disparage or discourage you.

I've often suggested if you're seeking Closure then you'll probably have to "Gift Yourself the closure you desire" since you're unlikely to get any from the soon-to-be-Ex (stbEx).

Thank you. I will look it up and consider what it means to gift myself closure.

These behaviors are fear-based. She is rejecting you before you can abandon her.

Because of her rejection behaviors you end up doing what she feared you would do.

What you want to make her understand is the reverse: you are leaving her because she cannot stop rejecting you.

That is quite a heavy lift because her traits likely make it impossible to embrace the underlying message: that she is wrong.

If you write something, write for yourself to read years later.

These divorces tend to change us.

I actually set aside 4 hours to go
Over the state of things and work up to something different. Discernment, counseling to separate, mediation or just separating. I ended up taking on her criticism that I had no goals. And her compete despondency over how I’ve neglected her and not dated her. Those things are to an extent true amd I’ve owned them. But I just got sucked in amd had this reaction that dammit I DO have goals I am not driftless. Amd YES befoee adhd and GAD diagnosis I was spacey and distant.

And then I’d try to wedge my own needs in and got back that everything she’s ever done is a reaction to soemthing I’ve done and I’m always making it about my feelings.

And then she was sobbing and we ran out of time. Amd I’m
Just angry.

I cannot get out of this damn rut. I’m not happy. I’m not optimistic. The relationship is holding me back. Amd yet I see the fragile little girl and I know it’s manipulative and I fall for it. I now I’m just alternating angry amd depressed.

Throwing this out there as I’ve gotten some great thoughts here. Hoping for more.

I am in a relationship with someone whose belief is that my neglect is so profound I deserve her treatment and have to earn common decency. I don’t tolerate this out in the world n

@AlleyOop...

Hello. Just read this entire thread - Wow - I feel that it's exceptional, both for the quality of input provided, but also for your persistence - to navigate through the FOG.  You're well on your way.

Like others, I can directly related to your experience.  M53 (50 when the divorce lightbulb turned on).  F49 n/BPDx (46 when the D process got underway). Three kids during the marriage, D5, D9, and D12 at the time - similar ages to your kids. We were married 14 years, and dated on/off for 10 years prior to that. I was against divorce forever, but one day I realized that I was fighting my own pre-conceived ideas and that I did have another option. When the lightbulb finally clicked on, I embraced it.

It took just over two years from when I started interviewing attorneys until the divorce was finalized, and now I'm about 18 months out from decree absolute. Your schedule may be different for many reasons, but as I read what you're going through, I couldn't help but relate.

During the process, I cohabitated with my n/BPDx for about a year. At the time, I had been seeing a therapist for well over a year and had an attorney who was aligned with my goals for the divorce. I encourage you to do the same. Like you, I had a theory of division of assets, which proved to be useful. I also fully documented my participation in my kids' lives - in other words, I was ready to counter the (false) argument that I was an absentee dad. I knew my then stbx would argue that I was a road warrior and never home and that she was the primary parent. So I went back through emails and calendar invites (usually sent by me) - years back - to document all the times that I was at parent-teacher conferences, school events, medical appointments, extra-curriculars, etc. etc.  Your atty is not going to do this for you - you need to take control and manage your case - and you will be far more likely to engage an atty that doesn't merely tell you what you want to hear if you do.  Even if your stbx is/was the primary parent - you still need to do this exercise, both to be ready for the divorce process, and also to demonstrate to yourself what have and have not done - and what you must be ready to do going forward.

As others suggested, I interviewed many attys. More than 20. I probably went overboard, but I was not in a rush. Some calls were short. Others were more in depth. I learned a lot. I asked prospects if they had experience - and success - representing dads. I specifically focused on high-conflict situations where there may be false accusations in play. I asked about direct experience with the judges in my county. Since you're a business owner, I encourage you to interview attys like you're interviewing a new general manager for your business - they will report to you, you're still the boss, but they will bring some skills and expertise to the operation that you may understand, but which you don't practice every day - that's why you're hiring an atty in the first place - otherwise you could do this pro se. It sounds like you've done a great job so far - if you haven't made a decision yet, I encourage you to interview a few more attys.  Also, don't hire a firm (where you get assigned to an atty later) - interview the atty you'll work with upfront. It's like hiring an employee - you might use a hiring service to send over a cleaner without an interview, but this is your new COO, CFO, etc. You want to meet them first and clearly align on their experience and ability to represent your goals. This is the most important hire you're going to make this year (maybe ever), so don't hesitate to reboot if you've already sent in the retainer - make sure you have representation you're comfortable with.

My then-stbx actually removed the IP-cams from our home security system while cohabitating. Anticipating false domestic violence claims, etc., I had a voice recorder in my pocket 24/7. I was extremely fortunate I never had to use it - I live in a 2-party consent state, but was prepared for the worst. You should know your local laws, and also prepare for the worst. Prior to filing for D, there was a 911 call and my n/BPDx was "section 12'd" - i.e., taken to the hospital for evaluation (our couples counselor actually made the call). During that process, something one of the detectives told me stuck with me: Once there is any degree of violence, it doesn't go away - if anything, it gets worse. That comment hit me like a ton of bricks because my therapist, our marriage counselor, and all the books in the world simply did not connect so directly. The message was: You can't change this. I see that message on this board all the time - but it's often mixed it with exceedingly considerate messages based on anecdotal experiences. When coming from a veteran detective that specializes in domestic cases, it connected with me in a far more tangible way.

During the pandemic, and then during the cohab time, I actually spent more time with the kids than ever. My stbx was out of the house as much as possible. I knew she was seeking validation elsewhere and was dating - It was painful at first, but then I realized it was actually helpful as it helped regulate her emotions and keep her focus and attention elsewhere. I'm not saying that will definitely happen for you, but be ready for anything...

Which leads me to a theme that's been in your posts over the past month or so:  The explanation. 

Others have addressed this in the most considerate and fair terms. I'll be very direct: You have resolved to divorce. With this decision comes acceptance (now or later) that your stbx's thoughts and feelings are no longer your responsibility.

Yes, you will coparent or parallel parent - but that's it. Yes, it's in the best interests of your kids for you and their mom to find some new equilibrium and ability to coexist in a new way - but sometimes (most times?) in situations like ours, that's not in the cards. The fact is that your stbx is likely to process divorce as a rejection - and this time, let's face it - she's right. You know what follows... 

At this point, even if you're able to cohabite, it's time to get ready to setup separate quarters in the house, minimize contact, and follow Eddy's BIFF communication protocol with as much flat politeness as possible. Become a sphinx. The point is: No need to worry about the explanation - because: No more explanations.

Be prepared to communicate via attys. In matters re: kids' needs and schedules, do it via text or email - document everything. Model perfect behavior at all times, but especially in your written communication. 

Like you, I knew that my n/BPDx wanted to be the primary parent and wanted more than 50/50 time. Was this because of historical precedent or because she believed that I was somehow bad, or was it because she needed to win or had some other ego-driven motive? Doesn't really matter.

Of course it's important to try to understand motivations, but in the end, what may or may not be rational motives just don't matter. The important thing is to be ready for the judge - and in that context, what matters most are your motivations. In front of the judge, you don't need to prove that mom is bad, or unfit - on the contrary, you mainly need to demonstrate that you are a great dad. So that's one area where you need to prioritize your time and attention in preparing your case.

Another anecdote: I filed first but waited to tell my stbx until papers were ready to be served because I was unsure how she would respond. My complaint was filed complete (i.e., all supporting docs, including financial statements) via USPS during the pandemic. The court was backed up. In the intervening weeks, my n/BPDx filed electronically without supporting documentation. I didn't know that was an option, because my atty was diligent rather than expeditious. My stbx's complaint was received and recorded first. She had no idea that I had actually filed first (and actually still doesn't know - I never saw the need to mention it). Somehow, she still managed to flip the script and blame me for rejecting her because I didn't try to get her to withdraw the complaint for an at-fault divorce...

Although I don't think that particular twist can be easily replicated, I mention it because it was helpful to me and might be instructive for you: I let my n/BPDx's various claims, threats, rages, etc., roll off my back. Along the way, I documented everything. I largely followed the Bill Eddy playbook in Splitting and BIFF. No more defensive statements, no more explanations, no more lengthy explanations. Sometimes I simply said "I cannot discuss this now" or "I prefer to communicate in writing" or "this is for our attys to discuss" etc.  Sometimes the response was no response - I simply would not get sucked in.

As Eddy and others here mention (predict?) - We settled on the courthouse steps before our first pretrial hearing. My atty landed the agreement - that I proposed - for 50/50 parenting time in exchange for financial terms that were favorable to my X.  My atty noted that my X traded parenting time for money (sometimes a big no-no), but that the judge was inclined to allow it because the agreement prioritized stability and continuity for the kids, with me keeping the marital home (as well as me keeping X's debt). Again, hard to replicate - but possibly instructive.

Going through the process was almost a fulltime job, but on the flip side... Over the past 18 months, I reconnected with long lost friends and family. Made some new friends along the way. Got back to some long neglected activities. Regained focus at work. In short, reconnected with myself - or at least, started to. Which in turn, has enabled me to be a better and more present dad.

You will get there too.

Thank you. Your advice is very helpful and I am grateful.

Your story makes it sound so confident and deliberate as you went through the process. I am having trouble even starting amd finding my footing with moving forward.

I am very anxious about the custody. My wife is a good mother. Like all parent partners we have different approaches. She says she believes I do not have the ability to foster my daughters’ emotional needs through adolescence. I cannot disagree more.

I cannot make a long list of specific activities that I do with my kids individually and that concerns me. I help them, talk with them when they need me, ask questions when I think they need that. I encourage their interests and attend and volunteer at their activities. I have one on one with each of them but not constantly or regularly. A lot of that is my reaction to their schedule. They are so scheduled I find myself pushing my wife to let them have individual white space. My oldest daughter listens to music and doodles or does crosswords. My younger daughter listens to audible books and loves telling us stories she’s made up. But do I identify joint projects and then go do them? No, not really. My wife is a planner and im not. My wife spear headed the Taylor Swift friendship bracelets in advance of the concert. I made one and sat with them. But I didn’t orchestrate it.

I find it difficult to shoulder my way in sometimes. I have to literally argue to be added to the playdate planning texts as the moms all text each other and then make plans.

I know the kids friends. I’ve made a point of having a relationship with those parents. I know they’re doctors and orthodontist. I drive my oldest to middle school 9 days out of 10 amd pick her up about half.

I guess this post is fishing for an injection of confidence and anyone going through it if you have advice rare drop it. I’m beyond grateful for this space. I’ve gotten more than I can ever repay here.

It's normal to be anxious. It would be weird if you didn't have these doubts especially given what you've been through and are enduring every day.  

What is it you specifically worry will happen with custody?

What is your relationship like with your kids? Have they seen your wife be violent with you or overheard the way she talks to you?

What is your best guess for what your wife would do when served divorce papers?

It's ok to not feel clear on goals. That's not a sign of any deficit on your part, it's a sign you're likely beaten down and wondering which way is up. These questions -- to stay or leave -- for some of us they're the most difficult decisions we've had to make. It can be daunting to try and puzzle all of that together while struggling to tread water.

Maybe we can help you sort through how to prioritize what matters to you most and work through this. There's no rush (other than the desire to get out of the frying pan). It took me a year to plan my exit and I've never felt such anxiety and stress. But that time to plan and get my ducks in a row paid off.

How you feel about this site is how I felt when I arrived here. ForeverDad and a member named Matt who isn't around anymore plus others were here during many of my darkest days, and there were a lot. You have friends here who understand what you're going through.

 :hug:

 

You are very anxious about custody... yet you state your spouse is a good mother.  Which is it?  Do you see the evident disparity?

Many here arrived stating the same.  "My spouse is a good mother/father but..."  Your spouse isn't a good parent when you have serious reservations.  If she's 'good' sometimes and 'bad' other times, then overall she is not a good parent.

Be careful you don't say that before the court or else the court will look at you sideways and ask why you're disagreeing.  See the point?

There are many instances of confidence and clarity in your words, and it takes some conviction to go down this path - even if you don't presently have everything mapped out.  That's ok.  My words have the benefit of hindsight, and frankly - a good deal of luck.  We all need to chart our own course.


Anxiety is normal when we're faced with a judge, who holds our fate in their hands - and when countered by an adversarial stbx. Yet you are clearly confident in your ability - that's great. It can be difficult to remain present for the kids while dealing with the turmoil in this process. Use this board as a resource, but don't hesitate to seek out local divorce support groups and other resources as needed.


I can't help but notice that you started this paragraph by saying you cannot make a long list - and then you proceeded to make a long list... Keep it going. Get more specific. Take your time. I have a feeling you'll be surprised with the result.

The goal isn't to show the judge that you and your stbx do everything exactly 50/50 (in fact, that literal interpretation might be what your stbx wants to debate).  Instead, show what you actually do - sharing dropoffs and pickups is huge - some parents can't show that. Take your time, as I mentioned - the purpose of this exercise is equally to demonstrate to yourself what you do - and potentially to the judge, if it gets that far.

If you end up with a settlement at the 11th hour, it may very well be because your atty has documentation of your activity and involvement with your kids that the opposing counsel will recognize is too strong for the judge to ignore (and likely contrary to their client's sweeping unsubstantiated claims).  One example... stbx: "I'm the primary parent for everything. He's never involved in school" - counter: "I do drop off and pickup more than 50% of the time, I know all the doctors, I know all my kids' friends' parents, and I loved making friendship bracelets..."  the point isn't who had the idea or initiated every activity, it's who was present. You've been present, it sounds like it will be easy to demonstrate. The judge is unlikely to scrutinize every statement - they don't have time - but your stbx will likely make sweeping generalizations that you or your atty can readily counter. The point isn't to demonstrate that your stbx is bad - it's merely that you're a functional, present, compassionate parent.

Documenting all the activity you've done that an uninvolved parent could not have done is the key. Again, anxiety is a normal response to uncertainty. The uncertainty may partially dissolve a bit as you prep this documentation for your atty... it will likely remain until the final agreement is signed. Manage the anxiety, in part, by allowing yourself to know who and what you truly are - vs what your stbx might claim.

Throughout my D process, I kept a concise daily journal - everything I did with the kids, and any noteworthy interactions or events with my then-stbx. The court is not interested in ancient history, they are most interested in the current precedent of the recent path - it can be 6 months to as much as three years for some issues (e.g., alimony, which is often a mandated calculation and not subject to interpretation). This process is going to take some months - as noted, it took me about two years from the first atty calls to the final agreement. If you start reconstructing a log of key events in the past year or two, and then continue to journal from now until whenever the judge says "done" - you'll have what you need.

Glad to elaborate if helpful.

You're on the path.

After nearly two years completing every checkbox for the court, the Trial was last on the list.  Trial Day arrived and when I entered the court house I was greeted with the news my then-stbEx was finally ready to settle.  Of course, she had a very favorable temp order so she naturally delayed as long as she could.

My ex too made sweeping general claims.  They eventually went nowhere, "he always..." and "she always..." are typically seen as too vague and thus hearsay to be ignored.  What counts in court is documented evidence, not claims unsupported by facts.  On the other hand, even the specifics recorded in your logs or calendars qualify as documentation.  (No, your ex or her attorney cannot browse your personal records, they are yours for reference.)

The court and associated professionals not bother themselves with WHY there is conflict and disagreement.  They're not there to "fix" either parent.  They're not concerned whether your ex has treated you unfairly.  They just want to process the case and unwind the marriage.  Keep that perspective in mind.  Focus on the important factors that impact the court's conclusions.

It may take months or years, but be seen eventully as the parent with solutions, not obstructions.

When I filed my police report which resulted in my then spouse being arrested for Threat of DV, that is exactly the advice I received... if I felt sorry for her or withdrew my report, it would only get worse over time.  Those officers and detectives have seen it over and over.  Promises to behave better fade all too quickly when an acting-out PD is involved.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=352042.msg13165217#msg13165217


Unwinding the marriage is a powerful event.  Accept it because you need the emotional and physical distance.

Thank you all of you. One thing this opens my eyes to is focusing and writing down what I actually do as opposed to focusing on what I don’t do which list I’ve apparently been given by my wife.

The concern on custody stems from our state being a “best interests of the children”’state. It’s not presumptive 50/50.

This puts me on the framework not or why she’s great or bad, but just on why I’m great. I  am a good dad and my kids need me in their lives.

Without knowing your state and delving into legal strategy (vs. BPD strategies), I'll add that in parenting situations like yours, "best interests of the children" often means preserving the status quo, i.e., as little disruption to the children as possible. 

A new parenting schedule is necessary, but many other routines should be preserved - school district, extra curriculars, friendships, etc. Instead of getting sucked into a negotiation of 70/30 or 60/40, you might want to frame the debate around which 50/50 schedule works best for your kids.  2/2/3, alternating weeks, etc. If you make breakfast and/or dinner for the kids 50% of the time, you should continue to do so...  keep in mind, parenting time is about overnights - so any schedule that works for your kids that equates to 182 or more overnights = 50/50. 

You can get a bit creative with this. In my agreement, I agreed that the kids could be with mom on Christmas Day every year as long as I got a makeup day if xmas falls during my regular parenting schedule. This made n/BPDx feel special and she went for it. Now I get to celebrate with my kids on xmas eve or some other day, and never have to worry about splitting time on the actual day of Christmas - it's better for the kids, too, because it almost completely removes a probable conflict trigger, which we'd all experienced in the past. My n/BPDx sees this as a win - she gets xmas. She didn't even need to ask for it - I offered. This helped get her to 50/50. Of course, YMMV.

You're 100% on the right track with documenting why you're great.

So your kids are tweens.  When I discussed wishing for alternate weeks with my lawyer, I recall him asking me, "Do you really want the court to believe you're fine with your ex having longer periods of time with your child?"  And my Custody Evaluator corrected me when I said I'd prefer alternate weeks because I wanted fewer encounters with my ex at exchanges.  Until then that had been the most obvious location we had conflict.

The CE said children under age 10 (ours was in kindergarten at the time) did best with more frequent visits and stated a 2-2-3 (or 2-2-5-5 two week) schedule was best.  My ex took Mon-Tue overnights, I took Wed-Thu overnights and we alternated Fri-Sat-Sun overnights.  I chose the latter part of the week since assignments were often due on Friday and I wanted to ensure classwork was done on time.

Years later when I got majority time during the school year as the less problematic parent regarding school, our summers remained on the 2-2-3 schedule and I didn't have reason to change what worked.

Side point:  Your local court probably has a long default list for holidays, including various ethnicities and religions.  Think ahead on how to limit future surprises.  Strike out any holidays which don't apply to your family.  Why?  My ex one time sabotaged my vacation plans when she stated she planned to observe an ethnic holiday on the list which we'd never observed before and applied to neither of us.

Two comments:
1) Similar ages here, and not coincidentally we went with the same 2/2/3 schedule with me taking Weds/Thurs for the same reasons.  I would recommend this if achievable.  Transitions are at school, i.e., mom drops the kids at school on Weds, and then I pickup or they walk home to my house that day - the at-school transition reduces direct interaction between parents.

2) Our agreement outlines how to handle transitions on "state or federal holidays" which typically fall on Mondays, i.e., when the kids would typically transition to mom after school.  I realized in hindsight that our district observes a number of no-school days that are not "state or federal holidays" on both Mondays and Wednesdays - It turned out that this gave my n/BPDx an opening to create chaos.  

e.g., she once threatened to file a motion of contempt if I did not transition the kids to her on a Monday that was not a state or federal holiday, but which was a no-school day... I capitulated to avoid putting the kids in the middle of a pointless conflict.  After I capitulated, and when her atty was no longer tracking, she asked me to take the kids on that day anyway...  

The point here is:  You can't anticipate everything - but by framing the discussion in the context of 50/50, you have a better chance of achieving 50/50.  

If you allow your stbx and her atty to frame the discussion in another way, you're only negotiating against yourself.  You might find a subtle way to call your stbx's attention to the fact that in a 50/50 arrangement, she'll have more time for whatever it is that she enjoys - in my X's case, that's time for the gym, for drinking with friends, for dating, etc.  So while she talked a great game about why she's the primary parent, her ultimate motivations were always more selfish - and when given a chance to "win" xmas, she accepted 50/50.  

Sidenote: our agreement doesn't explicitly state the number of overnights or use "50/50" language - this was part of the strategy. It does however say that the parents share equal parenting time, reserve the right to trade nights by agreeing in writing, without a formal modification (very useful), and share equal health/edu decision making - while giving mom special callouts for xmas and a few other minor nights that made her feel like she won...

I've since given my atty feedback on the "state and federal" language - it would have been better for the agreement to reference "recognized no-school days as defined by the school district, which may include state or federal holidays, as well as other holidays, professional development days, early release days, weather delays and cancellations, or any other days in which school is not in session during the regular school year".

Another tip: Don't negotiate. Don't compromise. Don't explain. Simply present a few options that you're prepared to accept that are all variations of 50/50 with subtle differences in "carrot" incentives to your stbx. These options will likely be presented by your atty to her atty, so you won't need to be present when her atty presents reality: "this might be the best you can hope to achieve - so which of these options do you wish to accept?  understand: if you don't accept, you're headed to a judge, who will hear that AlleyOop does a ton of dropoffs and pickups and supervises the making of Taylor Swift bracelets. you might consider these options so that AlleyOop can babysit the kids (at no cost to you) while you're dating" - eventually this might sink in privately, even if your stbx continues to rage...

A common explanation from my n/BPDx to whoever will listen:
"I got xmas" <- i.e., I won
And yet also "the judge was an asshole who forced me to accept this agreement" or "my atty didn't really understand a, b, c" <- blame shifting because she didn't win a 90/10 parenting plan that was never going to happen in the first place - because she's embarrassed (ashamed?) that the final agreement doesn't reflect the (false) narrative she'd been cultivating about why she's supermom and why I'm the devil.

Again, YMMV.

What Eyesup said about status quo being in the best interests of the child is so true.

Courts will want to see as little disruption to the kids' lives as possible. Obviously, having two homes is a disruption but you're an involved dad and any narrative to the contrary is beside the point. If she wants to battle you on that front then get a custody evaluation so a third-party professional can shine light on what's happening in the home.

Your wife's extreme view of you made you lose sight of what's center. The real story is that she's emotionally abusive and capable of violence. She probably won't love having a custody evaluator poking around doing psyche evals and asking how she handles stress and anger.

This series of posts contains absolutely brilliant practical strategy advice. I am blown away by the insight. I am grateful beyond words to have been given some framework for how to consider this. Yes every situation is different. But this all gives me a mindset and some self determination. More than all of that, as I started journaling about my kids lives and me in them I am able to see me more objectively and realize, both in the feedback here and in that journal that I truly am a good and present father.  That is a gift for which I am beyond grateful.

I am having a different kind of moment I’m hoping for insight on. The other night my wife was on me about how I never plan. So I polled the kids and landed on board games in the backyard. I then began planning dinner and my wife got on me about the choices I was making for dinner. I finally chose
Soemthing everyone liked and made dinner. The four of us actually had a pretty good time.

Throughout the day she’d been criticizing me for various things ultimately in four separate sets. The next morning I sent her a text (face to face never works) asking her to step back and look at my day. I walked through each exchange, all the criticism, the time it took up and said just think about it. Given that this is a typical day how could any human person possibly get excited about planning and spending time together? We had a good time in spite of all that.

I am at a what the heck why not point and threw it out there thinking like so many other messages letters or talks it would just draw more criticism. It was not unique in its approach or diplomatic tone. At the same time I’ve told her I’m not giving civility I’m not getting amd stopped with little things she’s pointedly stopped doing - good morning, good night, I made your coffee. And I’ve actually gotten angry a couple of times and given her a solid piece of my mind even at “you wouldn’t dare say anything at a time like this” times.

She’s clearly actually internalized it. She’s actually making an effort. And my messed up abuse victim self is doing to my rational intellectual self what he always does. “Look theres hope! This is the first step on a healing path!” Nevermind all the things she’s s done or said to me in the last three years. Things no healthy person would tolerate twice.

I realize I’m on the rollercoaster. She probably feels me getting more centered. This is all part of the cycle. Sex is almost certainly next. But for years I’ve bought into it - ‘textbook’ as they say.

My question is this. I don’t know how to be in a mindset of divorcing when it is not awful and not at least just a little bit angry. There is of course a funny charming woman in there as part of the mix. I fell in love with that part. The first thing I needed to take in was to stop the denial and accept that my spouse now the entire person. That good and bad are fully part of the package. But how do I stay on a path that ultimately will lead me out of this marriage and on to a path of healing when there’s this entire side of me acting as an anchor. Trying to persuade me not to act against my fears.

And of course in a matter of days during some angry broadside I’ll wonder why I wrote this post. Side note - there is amazing journaling value here. Even if no one read this it’s very helpful.

To play devil's advocate here, ANYTHING can be forgiven by you.  Part of the problem is that you are waiting for your spouse to say it, which will likely never happen.  The real question I gather from your statement is whether or not you can forgive her for saying things that just shouldn't be said.  And that's 100% your call, none of us have the right to judge what you should forgive and what you won't.  If you can't let it go though, then you have your answer.

One other thing you said was about how you handle other relationships.  I get that and I always thought the same thing- why should I have to sugarcoat things and communicate differently with my spouse?  But you have to realize that you have to communicate differently because your spouse is different mentally.  

For example, if a stray dog runs up to you acting aggressively, we all know to make eye contact, don't show fear, and to establish dominance (making yourself as big as possible, making lots of noise, etc).  That works with other predators as well, such as lions or bears.  But with a cobra or a tarantula, you do something completely different (grab a stick, just get the heck out of there) because they are very different and they react differently.

Again, are you willing to make that adjustment with your spouse or not?  There's plenty of tools here to help you with that.  But if you are unwilling, then you have your answer.

I found myself in an eerily similar situation- 24 years of marriage, most of it pretty good, and suddenly my wife starts getting super depressed around the 22 year mark.  We had a number of deaths in the family that weighed on us, so maybe that's the core cause.  But my wife also started pre-menopause around that time as well and eventually started lashing out at me.  She'd disassociate and paint me black at a moment's notice...this never, ever happened for the first 23 years.  Maybe she'd be distant but she was still the woman I married.

Ultimately, I decided that I couldn't accept the abuse, the loneliness, etc. and I gave up trying to fix the relationship, but that was the right move for me personally.  While all these stories sound the same, each story is completely unique and each of us are unique as well.  In other words, I can't tell you that because my path led a certain direction, you should take that path as well.  I can say though that if I had caught this earlier and realized what was happening, I'd probably still be married (my ex was diagnosed maybe 2 months after we separated...I had no clue that's what was happening).

@AlleyOop - I started journaling in 2014. I used an app called Evernote - it's still available in the app store.

I did this for a few reasons.

In my experience, I noticed patterns over years - but often had some degree of difficulty recalling exactly what was said or done in specific instances. This was completely inconsistent with my otherwise excellent recall in other areas of my life. I was not in therapy, and it was long before I discovered this forum or learned about BPD, etc. 

However, I was introspective enough to wonder:  what is going on with me?  And what is different about what's happening with my wife, vs. other challenging areas in my life?  Was I avoiding something?  If so, what?  I wanted to reduce conflict in my marriage, and I was prepared to start with me and explore what I could do.

Journaling concise notes after a given "event" enabled me to improve my recall about who/what/when.  I might go weeks or months in between making new entries, although eventually I would make a new entry almost every day.

The journal was particularly helpful when we attempted couples' therapy, but not in the way I'd expected/hoped:  when I reviewed the journal, I began to see patterns more clearly, and to understand that in my case, there might not be any adjustment I could make that would reduce the conflict patterns that were most concerning to me.  More than one therapist turned to me to ask what I was prepared to accept...  At that point, I was still locked into the ideas of "in sickness" and "until death... "

My point is:  I journaled for 6 years before things reached a point where I accepted that the change had to come from me - and that the change I need to make was to leave the relationship rather than capitulate and to accept abuse, etc.

There were periods where I avoided reading the journal, because the awakening was painful. But in dark moments as well as in moments of calm and clarity, the journal helped me move forward.

Important detail:  Strongly recommend that you make app access password restricted and place its launch icon in an out of the way / boring folder, or make it a hidden app if your phone has that ability.  Or if that's not practical, consider a browser-based solution, or a password protected document on a computer that only you access, instead of on your phone.

While my initial motivation was to improve recall and understand dynamics in my relationship, the journal eventually became an important asset in D proceedings. The journal habit eventually became four separate journals of varying value:

- key conflicts/events with my x (concise summaries)
- all activity with kids (no commentary, just dates, times, actions)
- my thoughts about other non-family things (good and bad)
- activity in my professional life (good and bad)

I've continued this practice following the D. 

If you choose to continue with your own journaling, please take all necessary steps to protect your journals and restrict access.

As noted by others, there are resources here to support whatever path you choose to take.  There is no easy way forward - all options are hard.  That said, if you think reading comments from others here is helpful - imagine getting a memo from yourself.  That's what the journal can do for you.

The journal has been a wonderful help. It’s caused me to realize I do spend time with my kids, that I’m intentional about it and am a good father. I’d let my wife define me as a poor o parenting partner and equated that with being an ‘Underachieving’ father.

But here’s something I could use help on. I was diagnosed with adhd two years ago. She has adhd as well. Like everyone we present differently. I’m not going to get into how she presents just me.
Two nights ago we went to an outdoor movie on grass. We went to a friends party early then to the movie. We agreed I’d pack and we’d pick up food. I didn’t pack paper plates. She laid into me about she couldn’t believe I didn’t pack. She laid it on in front of the kids. I ran into a c store and got some. Saturday I helped one daughter get ready for her first overnight backpacking trip. We practiced with the pack and went thru her checklist. I tricked her by making the pack heavier without her knowing and we walked four miles. When I told her the pack weight after she was proud and relieved.
Sunday we were all really busy. I knew the camp checklist wasn’t complete. I failed to read the email. Though they are leaving Tuesday she’s supposed to have everything Monday. And she needed a lunch. My wife was angry and stepped in amd went on and on about how she has to micromanage everything.

So here’s the thing and I could pro ide more detail but I’m so so so tired of angry lectures. I understand that by she’s frustrated. I think she could lighten up some but I get it - I miss details all the time. I run my own highly successful business and have people on staff whose job is my details. Even though I work full time and she’s home she got some legitimate beefs.
I’ve gone on adderal. I hired an adhd coach. I have a therapist. I’ve read book after article after listen to podcasts.
I cannot figure out how to remember the plates or to think to read the email.  
There’s not offsetting fun between us. It’s just lecture after rant. And though on this one she’s got a point it’s like I don’t even care anymore.  I can’t stand the way she talks to me about this. She won’t engage on it or change or be constructive. And this isn’t the only thing she gets mad about. On Saturday she was furious I didn’t do different or better help with an event she was planning. But is this abusive nor am I Just labeling it l that because I’m uncomfortable with it ? If I’m not being clear please let me know.
Am I complaining about her treatment of me when she’s legitimately angry to avoid feeling bad or responsibility? Do I sincerely believe these things could be handled differently and she’s overreacting or am I just not seeing this fairly?

@AlleyOop

Does anyone else in your life communicate with you this way?  Make you feel this way?

Objectively, do you feel it's ok to communicate like this in front of the kids?  Does the golden rule apply?

Does your W get a pass on her behavior because the core of her message is a valid concern?

Many of us get caught in the style vs. substance trap.  And most of us don't want to drift into a meta-discussion about the discussion ("I don't like your tone"), instead of about the central issue that needs a solution ("we need plates").

There are a ton of resources here to help address these dynamics (Library: Tools and Skills Workshops).  It's a long list and might be a little overwhelming when you feel like you need help right now, not after completing an associates degree worth of study and introspection! 

Personally, I found it helpful to read these resources and to revisit them from time to time, but YMMV.  My suggestion is to dig in there, and in parallel keep posting.

One idea:  What would happen if you said something like this to your W:

"You were absolutely right about the plates, and I don't mind going to get plates or anything else we need.  I'd like to ask that when these things come up, that we show the kids that we can solve problems together."

My guess is that your W will feel criticized and not take the invitation well (even if you take pains to avoid "you" statements, and focus on the benefit to the kids and possibly to your marriage, etc.).

Can you think of another way to have a cooperative discussion with your W that might have the desired outcome, e.g., in which she agrees not to berate you or insult you in front of your kids?  Or acknowledges your feelings in any way?

I wonder if your W wants you to look bad in front of the kids (intentionally, intuitively, other)?  One pattern of BPD behavior is black and white thinking, in which your W needs you to be "bad" so that she can be "good" - in which case, she will go out of her way to reinforce any mistake you might make, real or perceived.  This last point is key, because it often leads to you, as the spouse, trying to be perfect and/or "walking on eggshells" in order to avoid invoking some event over any issue, large or small.

How you respond in these moments is important.  It's your chance to model good behavior, and ultimately let your kids know that you are a safe parent.

In the meantime, how do you feel about the questions posed above? 

Great advice. I’m this moment I feel I’ve tried that but maybe that specific context may work. She believes she’s modeling healthy expression of anger when I ask her to change her “style”
In front of the kids.

Would that modeling work well if you behaved the same way toward her?  What if the kids did?

Pointing this out probably won't win any points - as it treads on invalidation / criticism, etc.

Question:

As you read through these ideas and "what if" scenarios - are you focused more on her, and how she might react?  Or are you focused on yourself, and the implications for how you feel about these scenarios?

It can be helpful to have your own frame of mind in focus. 

In my journey, there was a time when the balance shifted from "what does my wife think?" to "what do I think?" - and it was hugely liberating.  Suddenly, discussion about radical acceptance shifted from acceptance of my wife to acceptance of me - my own thoughts and feelings - which I had pushed aside in order to make room for my wife, for a long, long time.  Coming to terms with my own, long-ignored sense of things was a big step.

Your wife is entitled to her POV - people do get angry and express it in various ways. However, that doesn't mean that everyone else has to automatically accept it, embrace it, respect it, etc. - especially if there's little or no reciprocity. 

This is prime territory for a boundary - where you wife gets to hold on to her anger, but where you also get to impose some limit or consequence for occasions when it's simply not acceptable for whatever reason based on how you feel (about your kids, yourself, or some general idea about social norms and healthy relationships).

Maybe a counter to that is to model healthy ways to stand up to a bully.

Hold up your hand and say, "Stop." Repeat it often because she's on a train flying down the tracks at top speed. Keep saying stop until she stops. If she escalates, tell her you will walk away.

Ideally, you tell her you'll do this when she's regulated. "Hey, I need to walk away when I feel overloaded. I'll come back once I'm back to baseline."

However, sometimes the heads up doesn't work and it's more effective to talk less and do more.

Your kids are not learning about healthy anger, as you know. They are learning that the angriest most unhinged person gets to say and do whatever they want.

My kid felt proud of me when I first started to stand up to his dad.

In the months after I left n/BPDx, my son and I were in the car heading to our new apartment and he said, "I feel bad for dad because he must be lonely."

I said, "He should've thought of that when he was being mean to us."

I saw his face in the rear view mirror and he was beaming. That's the first time I realized he was actually proud of me.

Old me would not think this was the proper thing to say to a child. But our children are not typical children. They live in a war zone. What he heard me say was, "You act like a bully, you end up alone." Versus before, when I was teaching him, "We appease bullies and nothing changes."

Question:

As you read through these ideas and "what if" scenarios - are you focused more on her, and how she might react?  Or are you focused on yourself, and the implications for how you feel about these scenarios?

Still figuring out excerpt. Though I read Beatty on Codependency and understood intellectually what I was doing, this question is powerful. My subconscious mind went to work on it and when I woke up I saw all these events with such liberating clarity. I will work hard to hang onto this question when I start into FOG. Thank you thank you.

I’m moving from believing I deserve this to not. It’s totally accurate I’ve not participated in gift purchasing and other planning. What’s omitted is when I’ve actually sat down amd asked her to plan these things like she wants she just gets irritated about my style of participation. As messed as it is to be looming for feedback, i am. How bad is this text thread? Amd YES there’s truth amd my culpability in what she’s complaining about.

Here is the thread. My responses are genuine not sarcastic.

Me

I ordered [daughter] a nomatic backpack for her birthday. She’s forgotten how much she wants one. Telling you bc it arrives today

Spouse

Um…she and I have been looking together. She needs a specific size for school. Not sure thst will work. Please dont try to overcompensate by doing the this kind of thing.

It’s just the same as fun dad stuff. You’re not actually acknowledging what’s going on just randomly and sporadically buying something and not communicating
Don’t send a bunch of text justifying. It’s the same pattern of temporary pro activness that is indicative of attempts to participate in your personal life without actually engaging
It’s upsetting and disrespectful
Of what I do for them and how hard I work to meet their needs. You should be engaged and communicate not of doing t hit a separately and randomly

Me

On the [place just she and I went to] trip she went over it and over it. I thought it would be fun and a throwback to the trip

Spouse

 And please dont go on about how I’m critical and you do things wrong. I’m sick of trying to settle for a level of participation that just feel sad and disconnected and frankly passive aggressive to me
It’s fine to have reason but never talking to me is the problem. I’ve spent their entire lives doing these things with no help whatsoever and you’re popping in randomly. It’s minimizing and fun dad and isn’t something f you’ll keep up so I’ll just have to keep doing what I do while you get extra credit for you’re o ce I. A while purchase after I spend hour searching f then intérêt for the best thing
Just PLEASE READ (https://bpdfamily.com/safe-site.htm)ing get what I’m saying and how upsetting and disrespectful and sexist it is so I don’t she. To add this to the ducking g pile of upsetting and hurtful things I have to tolerate
I keep asking you to communicate and engage and do these things together so we can be a couple and family and parents together but you just keep up the disconnection and separation of everything. It’s only exacerbating the issues.
She never mentioned that pack when we’ve looked online. And again…yes I’ve spent actual time doing this not just quickly and randomly purchasing something so thanks for just ignoring all of the time and effort I put I to everything for them
And now cue how overwhelming this is for you but not at all how awful this feels for me.
Except thst I’m completely right and justified in feeling this and I’m not even remotely sorry about feeling this way because absolutely what it’s been like for me and you can’t even bring yourself to try for one second to do anything together like simply her birthday. The plans are made and the presents are purchased. You missed it. You never asked. You dont get to drop in like this

Me

I would never intentionally minimize what you do for them snd the family. You work hard at all of it and everyone’s lives are better for having you in them.

Spouse

This isn’t sufficient if for some reason you think it is
And you’re letting g another life moment go and you could have engaged and planned it with me
You’re entirely and will likely miss the point of all of this. And I imagine just think “i was just being nice and I just bought a backpack.” And that’s not remotely what has happened here
And that passive response you routinely have is a major part of the issue. You don’t see what you’re actually missing and what you’re leaving me with and how you pop in in such a male way like you’ve just been here the whole time celebrating and buying gifts when 99% of what they’ve ever received or had planned for their holidays and birthdays were all a total surprise for you. And that should seem like a much bigger issue to you!
So sorry I’m such a PLEASE READ (https://bpdfamily.com/safe-site.htm)ing bitch and poor you just can’t win. Yep. It’s yoy that can’t win. Not me not moms not women. It’s definitely not something you’re missing and don’t understand. All you have to do is pro-actively participate in your life and life and in general in a a consistent manner and not last minute or retroactive repair. It’s not that hard if you actually care about the people in your life, care to have people in your life and what things from life thst come from pursuit and not just whatever is delivered to you by me or passes in front of you
Yep…a simple backpack purchase unleashed this. So maybe instead of thinking what this means for you you can think about how big this all is for me (and moms) that all of this comes from a seemingly simple act on your part
What all I might be doing you never consider and the ways you’re not doing your part in this life. And please don’t go on about your failure becuase it just makes it about you and takes over the whole narrative and nothing comes from it. Be uncomfortable and consider how big this actually is and how accountable you actually are.
I have expressed these same sentiments so many times. It’s degrading to hear that you don’t understand what I’m saying or experiencing. And I already found her a backpack after hours of searching and asking her questions. Not just quickly and simply throwing money at a task like it was thoughtful.

She cast you in a role for a different play than the one she's directing and now you're being chastised for not knowing the lines in a script you were never given.

Seems impossible to get it right given these conditions.

Even if you worked 14 hour days and never gave a gift in your life, she is saying: no, you can't give a gift.

Whereas logic would suggest that if she wants you to be involved in the lives of your kids, giving a gift would be considered a step in the right direction. In which case, she might chastise you while encouraging you to keep making these positive changes.

The text exchange is about her, not the kids (this is pathogenic parenting -- her feelings are used to describe theirs).

It's moving the goalposts. You cannot win.

There is a similarity to BPD sufferers who claim they were assaulted and get a restraining order. But then try to run into the person who allegedly hurt them.

Which is it? Either you are the victim or you're the abuser.

pwBPD want to be both.

Do you ever wonder if it's your wife who might have autism?

In other words... sometimes it's good to ask ourselves whether what we're experiencing is Projection, whether we are being cast with the other person's behavior.

Accusations are confessions.

Man that text exchange is equal parts infuriating and triggering because I've gotten the same kind of lashings before myself. She plays the victim role perfectly while accusing you of doing what she is doing. I'm sorry man.

One of the things I’ve struggled to do is “not take it personally” per Mason and Kreger. I didn’t take that one personally. The next day she and one of my daughters caught up with me and the other daughter. When I saw her she said essentially “I feel awful.  My back is killing me again and perimenopause is worse I feel like I have the worst pms all the time.” Then she got out her phone and showed me the backpack she and my daughter picked and said as if that entire thread hadn’t happened “I think it does what she wants but I’m worried it’s too big. I think that one you got is too small. I hope one of them works out. “

This is as close to an apology as I’ll ever get.

Just so weird.

I rarely go on Pinterest. I went on yesterday and my wife had invited me to one of her pin boards. I accepted and there were 659 of those pins with quotes. Every single one of them deals with things she’s struggling with - overcoming trauma, having adhd and dealing with flash emotions. Fully half are things about being with someone who doesn’t see you, or love you or needing to see the truth and move on or the fact that apologies are nothing without changed behavior. That half is
all about me. All the thing she complains about. I have no idea how long this took. No explanation. And it does actually trip jy guilt triggers. It’s true that i distanced myself. Haven’t plugged in. And I feel awful that someone in my life feels
That way. It’s so sad. And so accusatory. I wish I wanted to talk to her about it. I used to beat myself up for avoiding a conversation like this. Now I recognize it just opens the door to more of this. It makes me wonder how bad I was ? How distant was i? How much of how she feels could have been avoided if I’d figured out how to lean in more? Or was I always self protectively withdrawn and no matter how great I was it still wouldn’t be enough and we’d just be here.

Thanks for listening. As I move to divorce I am so damn sad and so
Sick of then introspection.

I’ve decided I need to leave. She won’t collaborate with me. I’ve gotten to a point where I’m not afraid of or avoiding conversations about our relationship. Rather I just see them as unproductive and inhealthy.

I’ve hired a lawyer and need to provide him with a lot of information. I’ve not told my wife yet. I need everything to be ready.

Here’s the thing - we had an outing with some other families last night. We got back in the car and she wasn’t speaking to me and hasn’t all day.

When she does this, it really messes with me. It stresses me out. I start feeling like I need to do something to make it stop. Like it’s my job to run up there and open up a co bersation that will ultimately be 1-2 hours on some flaw of mine and its effect on her for years. There won’t be any back and forth or learning. Just a lecture on some issue I’ve heard 100 times.

Here’s my question. I’ve worked hard to get to a place of conviction and to hold on to my own perspective and not let her dictate the emotional frame.

SO WHY DOES THE SILENT TREATMENT STILL BOTHER ME SO MUCH? I should be relived she’s avoiding me. Instead I’ve got so much to do and I’m just stressed out amd staring at the wall.

@AlleyOop,

One of the upsides to detaching is that you have a chance to get to know yourself.  It doesn't happen immediately, but eventually you might be able to answer your own question about why you feel a particular way, or why a particular thing effects you.

Why does the silent treatment bother you?  I can't say.

I can speculate:   Because a reasonable, rational person is compelled to try to make sense out of things.  Because a non-disordered person with a basic level of empathy can identify that something's off, and is compelled to acknowledge it.  Or possibly because a person who has played a caretaker role (even inadvertently) for a period of time is resisting the impulse to try to fix something...

Not sure if any of this applies to you and what you're going through.

In my case, there was a moment when it felt like a light switch flipped - when I finally had conviction, I didn't need to "resist" an impulse to repeat familiar patterns, and I didn't ruminate or get stuck reviewing everything in my head.  I just started to move forward. 

Now on the other side, I admit that from time to time, something might trigger a memory and I find myself thinking about some unresolved issue from years ago... "why did she..." or "why didn't she..." - but I tend to catch myself and remind myself:  There's no answer, there's never going to be answer, and I have real priorities:  friends, family, kids, work, etc., and that's where my attention needs to be. 

As they say, don't let your STBX live in your head rent-free.

You are 100% correct - you have other things to think about. The D process can be like a part time job. It sounds like you're going about it in a very diligent manner. You'll get through this.

Thank you. I do feel like I just recently got to a place where I stopped questioning my perceptions and feelings. I liken it to quieting my mind during meditation- you have to pull yourself back. And it’s reassuring where you wrote about telling yourself there no answers. I have for years maybe decades thought if I could just understand and be understood everything could be happy and … stable - my mind added stable before I chose that word and I started crying while typing this in my car.

I’ve finally stopped wondering what is she thinking or needing others to tell me I’m not crazy or just repeating stories of can you believe this happened in my therapy sessions. Because - it doesn’t matter. There is no understanding. And someone whose illness cannot let them understand just will not ever understand. Always deflect and counter.

Thanks for saying I’ll get through this. It’s going to be just awful. Though as my therapist points out - how much worse could it actually be?

In my case, I am very happily divorced.  I've reconnected with friends and family.  I spend far more time doing things that I like instead of capitulating to no good effect...

Take time for yourself.  Be kind to yourself.  Trust yourself.

Patricia Evans wrote a book called Verbal Abuse and in it she writes that the silent treatment is the most severe form of verbal abuse because it erases you.

Codependency sort of stems from having a weak sense of self -- it's hard to have a good, solid, immovable, self-respecting sense of self when you've had an upbringing in which you were not validated nor taught how to regulate emotions, not to mention developing strong boundaries and having a healthy sense of who you were, warts and all.

If you have a weak sense of self, which doesn't exactly get stronger in a relationship with someone who is intent on tearing what little esteem you have into shreds, then being on the receiving end of a silent treatment can feel existential, almost like annihilation.

I found post-divorce that it was a process to piece myself back together. So things I "should" feel didn't match up with how I did feel. It feels awful to be ignored! Even when it's someone you might not mind ignoring you.

But the core of who you are is lovable. You deserve to be heard and listened to and learned from. Even someone who disagrees with you should see you for the full, lovable, whole, decent person you are.

It will take time to get there, most likely.

When I began preparing to leave, my ex seemed to sense a shift in me that to anyone else would be imperceptible. The last months were nearly intolerable and there are memories from that time period I still hesitate to revisit. Once you begin to give to yourself what you deserve to have, even if it's a scrap of self-respect, it may set off alarm bells in her -- she will sense something good happening to you and that is forbidden. Misery insists on company. It's possible she will give you more silent treatment if she perceives things are changing.

Do you have someone you can talk to during these spells? Would you find it helpful to share here when they happen and how you feel?

I mean, no one can tell you who you are in your core. Only you can do that. Only you can deny that experience, too.

The silent treatment can put you in front of a mirror where you have to look and see who is staring back at you, and whether that person loves you like you deserve to be loved. I think the pain we experience about being so let down by our selves is what makes the silent treatment particularly painful for those of us riding out really abusive relationships. We have so much rebuilding to do, not just from relationship damage but from FOO damage that goes back to early stages.

Thank you all for your continued advice and support. I’ve reached this place both wonderful and scary. She laid into me about my lack of financial planning. This usually triggers me as her impulsive emotional spending (which I have enabled o own that) is a big part of it. This came in a text amd my usual response would be to whip off an indignant response. But I didn’t. Because I know- really know!- that nothing i can say or write can change the way she sees it and I don’t need her to see it my way for me to believe my own perspective. It was a real relief.

Today she was triggered and I went up and gave an hour of listening. On amd on about all the ways I’ve failed and disappointed and not shown up. Amd how I’m not trying now.

Some of what she says is accurate. I’ve owned it. Amd I can’t change the past. All of it is without any accountability from her. There’s no conversation just a one way dump while she cries and cries.

I know I’m leaving. I’ve hired a lawyer. I’m working with a coach on how to help the kids and set boundaries.

That’s all the context. Here’s the question. I k ow I can’t fix her. I can’t help her. The fact that I don’t know what to do or say to help her isn’t a character flaw. I can’t get her to counseling. I won’t enlist her friends help to encourage her - I’d have to tell them things that would be hard to hear.

I realize no one here can know but for those of you who have been through this - what happens to her next? After I leave? My hope is that I am enabling her and she’ll get help. What experience have others had?

I don’t k ow what to do with my compassion ifn not trying to act on it.

I can't predict what's next - no one can. But there are some patterns - many are well documented on this site - which might be instructive.

In my case, what happened in couples therapy was very telling: 

My uBPDxw (then, wife), was a predictably unproductive participant. "Participant" is not the right word, as she was not a reliable or honest participant in any way. More like saboteur. But therapy gave her a chance to flip the script, and she introduced the idea that I was financially abusive because I didn't give her equal access to all finances, all accounts. I raise this because it might be relevant to what you noted about your situation in your last comment.

My xw quit her job, promised to get a new one, but never did and yet continued spending - for three years leading up to the divorce. "We" racked up some debt. She would never agree to a budget or acknowledge a discussion re: practical limits for a household budget or personal spending. She has an MBA and certainly knows how to use a spreadsheet, but when I asked "what do you think about the budget I shared the other day?" she'd offer a range of deflections or redirects... "I didn't receive it, can you resend?" or "I couldn't open the attachment" or, finally "I don't know how to use excel" (right...).

Subsequently, her complete unwillingness to share responsibility for a family budget was reframed to our therapist as me imposing restrictive and abusive controls on her autonomy, when in fact she was abusing me (and our kids) by squandering our savings and refusing to participate in any dialog about finances or practical limits.

The therapist (this was the fourth therapist in 10 years) had no interest in exploring right or wrong, or getting to underlying issues - this one acted like a mediator, simply trying to broker some agreement - any agreement - this doesn't work when there's a PD in the process.

In this environment, I considered various theories about "some couples divide and conquer and manage things in various ways" and "what can we do differently" and "maybe I should give her more control" - all counter to my own intuition and common sense about the situation.  After all, I had maintained some separate accounts, and that was enabling me to keep our household afloat. Spoiler alert: during the divorce I learned that my xw had secret accounts I knew nothing about...  even though we filed joint taxes for years.

Ultimately many of the exercises and ideas presented here started to take hold:  From my journal, I recognized and accepted that her spending behavior was not new or recent - it had been going on forever. From dialog with my personal therapist, I saw that accusations are confessions, and that I was not the abuser. From reading others' accounts here, I recognized that my behaviors - avoidance, rescue, capitulation, etc. - were contributing to keeping both me and my xw trapped in reoccurring, unresolved patterns. And from my attorney, I realized that my journal, history of emails to my xw seeking agreement and cooperation, plus generally good financial record keeping would not be viewed as abusive by a judge - if we ever got to that point.

In your case, even if you take a long hard look in the mirror and recognize things you can do differently re: financial planning - will you be able to do it together, and stick to it?  Would changes in your behavior actually lead to lasting changes in the relationship, or in the relationship dynamic?  Or are the cries re: financial planning simply reflecting some other perception and unmet need (you mentioned spending) on her part?  I think you know the answer here... log this in your journal so you can refer back to it.  And the keep the journal someplace safe - i.e., hidden file or app with a strong password.

As for your other question: what happens to her?

In my case, there was no immediate separation. This was tough. However, about a week after filing, my xw started dating. Fortunately, she did not bring anyone home or expose the kids (at least not until after she moved out). This proved to be the greatest thing - as I had a lot of time with the kids while she was out almost every weekend, and her attention was elsewhere.

Her attempt to frame me as an abusive husband or father would not hold while she was readily entrusting the kids care to me while out dating and posting pictures of party time on social media...  I anticipated false accusations, and documented everything. I invested time with my atty to prepare for worst case scenarios, e.g., false DV claims. Fortunately, it never got to that point.  I was still up first every day, still making the kids breakfast, still giving the kids a fresh cup of coffee to bring to mom in bed.  I think these small gestures helped - with my xw and certainly with the kids.

Ultimately, we agreed to terms on the proverbial courthouse steps on the morning of the first pre-trial hearing, and the judge gladly accepted a motion to waive the hearing and use the time to sign off on our decree that same day. In our state, if there is no further motion, it automatically becomes decree absolute in 90 days, and ours stuck.

The things that served me well during the year between filing and the agreement:
- not moving out (this isn't a safe or available option for most - I was lucky)
- document everything (I kept a daily journal, plus a log of activities with kids - more actually, but these are the key elements)
- grey rock, all day every day.  dating new guy?  ok, have fun, hope he's a nice guy.
- focus on the kids
- focus on the divorce process
- use any time left to focus on work and maybe 1% for myself - hike, bike, friends...

Each day the light at the end of the tunnel gets brighter. I think the week or month after she moved out I experienced the best sleep of my life.  Whew.

Thank you. It just helps so much to hear from others. It all helps me find a way to frame what comes next as something I can do, get through and have a life on the other side.

What does your gut tell you will happen?

As for compassion, pour that into yourself and the kids. You've been through a lot and need every drop of compassion you can get. If it's still too hard to direct your compassion to you, shower the kids with it.

It won't go to waste.

Your spouse is an adult, so are you.  You will do what you have to do, for yourself and especially for the kids.  What she will do with her life once the marriage or relationship is over, well, that's similarly up to her.

You couldn't fix her while married, it probably won't improve after marriage ends.  Remember, with the adult relationship ended, all that is left is the custody and parenting matters.  However, BPD is a disorder most impacting to close relationships.  So distance apart may be a good factor.  Once you're apart both physically as well as legally then the discord and on-edge conflict may lessen over time.  Once my son was an adult and aged out of the system, it dropped more but anytime I'm around her I still have to be careful not to needlessly trigger her, she remains sensitive to me below the surface.

I am leaning hard on you BPD community people. I assume if you’ve been where I am you know how this help feels. It’s not like divorcing in the regular sad it’s over way. It’s that, but while carrying your kids through an emotional minefield while guilt Grenades are flung at you.

can’t talk to her about ANYTHING without a blow up so I’m placating her and frankly manipulating her to keep her at bay because I’m not ready to let all hell break loose. When I tell her I really can gauge how bad it’s going to be.  It could be really bad. She’s still harboring this hope I’ll fix it while she treats me like utter PLEASE READ (https://bpdfamily.com/safe-site.htm) and seems to genuinely believe that I should accept that treatment as my obvious and just desserts.

So I’m anxious. And guilty. She’s
Actually owning that she’s got hormonal and mental health problems and I’m bailing instead to trying. And that’s TRUE but what can I do? She’s critical and PLEASE READ (https://bpdfamily.com/safe-site.htm)ty amd blaming and shaming and cruel and absolutely cannot see it. She really can’t. She’s not bluffing she thinks she’s 100% justified in all things she’s done and said.

So I’m slow walking her when I’m fact i should be saying yes I am not trying anymore. I’m done. Amd yes I’ll talk to the kids without you and I’ll tell them.

Ugh. I am forgetting an inordinate amount of thjngs. I woke up at 130 amd couldn’t sleep. That almost never happens to me. I’m stressed.

Whatever advice or encouragement anyone has o could really use.

Knowing that you can't fix someone who can't truly listen to you - due to the weight of her perceived emotional baggage of the close relationship - Just do the best you can.

One technique is to step outside the immediate situation that is sure to develop over the next months.  One way is to picture yourself a year or 5 years into the future.  Give yourself time to ponder without the predictable demand to "answer right now".  What would you look back and wish you'd done instead?  What feels so hard now might seem obvious when you pause to reflect or when looking back.

That's a perspective hard to achieve since you're in the middle of all the emotions and pressures.  But do try.  We also will do what we can to help, based on our years of collective peer support wisdom.

I’ve used this technique multiple times now. I am grateful for it.

I’m almost finished compiling all the information for the divorce to start.. My wife accused me of giving her the silent treatment and avoiding hard topics.  I sent her a text saying sincerely that I did not want her to think I was silent to try to punish her. I said for months every time I talk she uses it as an opening to criticize me. As for hard topics I told her I won’t do raised voices around the kids anymore. And she cuts me off and deflects. She can’t hear hard things she can only say them. I wrote it sincerely and gently pointing out I was writing it because she wouldn’t have let me finish. And now I just look at her when she tees off. I don’t engage. I’ve become impassive. I used to get thrown into doubt and feel guilt. Now it’s mostly restrained frustration I feel v

The reason I’m writing tonight is she’s falling apart. She doesn’t look well. She’s vibrating with anger. Her perimenopause symptoms are worsening. She had been excessive blood flow - she had to go to the ob gyn for help. It was a little scary. They put her on estrogen. Doesn’t seem to have helped her mood.

I’m worried about her. I’m worried about my kids. She’s a little harsh with our oldest now (13 yo girl). I used to believe that as a husband I had to do what I could to help. That set me up for a lot of abuse and unhappiness. I used to think I could help her, that I would. And now I’ve given up on us and on the false premise that I can “save” her.  I’m leaving out a LOT of constant criticism, blame and projection. This is hard kn me.

I can’t do or say anything to encourage her to get help or just talk to someone  - it’s actually counterproductive. It’s occurred to me she’s avoiding help in case it gets used against her. But when someone you care about is completely falling apart- who do you call? What do you do When you know it can’t be you? Just watch?

I’m writing to check in and get some context. My wife and I are living almost separately in the house as I prepare to file for divorce. She is more and more depressed. More time spent in her room. More withdrawal. When I talk to her about helping her getting her help it quickly devolves into “you should already know how to help me you shouldn’t have to ask” and “I’m
Depressed because of you and who you’ve been and your behavior and I don’t need help I needed a real partner” and it’s just a venting session and completely unproductive.

She is depressed. I don’t think k she’ll hurt herself. She lights up for the kids.

I can’t figure out, as she’s falling apart and simultaneously showering me with criticism - where’s the line of me being detached and accepting I can’t help vs I’m just ignoring a human being with apparent mental health problems?

You can't live her life for her.  After all, she's an adult.  If you disturb her so much, then exiting her life as a spouse ought to reduce her complaints.  Ha, we all know logic doesn't work in these situations.  I too faced a spouse seemingly falling apart and blaming me for it.  And she refused counseling.  Though court eventually wrote she needed counseling, it was never ordered.

You're living in really challenging circumstances. It's similar in ways to living with an addict. In both cases, the experience of being miserable is better -- more familiar? less frightening? easier? -- to making meaningful changes. With both depression and addiction the pressures of being accountable appear to be crushing. Adding to that, there are no guarantees, no clear path.


It doesn't seem like what you've been doing is ignoring someone with mental health problems. She isn't coming to you asking for help, only to be met with indifference or worse.

Realistically, what options exist to help someone who is not able or willing to receive it?

Okay thanks. That’s a really good point. I’m not turning her away with indifference. I’ve told her I want to be there and I want help her. And that I need to be treated with kindness and respect. It seems so simple when you frame it that way. I’m not indifferent. I’m not uncaring. I don’t know why this all seems so confusing - trying to decide what is right.

It’s like I’m beating myself up because  I’m not a mental health superhero who swoop in with some great plan.

@OP

I hear you.  You're in unfamiliar territory.  Your instinct is to help.  Going against instinct doesn't feel right.

Perhaps there's a way to reframe this?  What if this instinct is more like muscle memory - it's a habit, but not necessarily a conscious or fully reasoned behavior?   Which means that with some practice, you can refine it, adjust it, change it...

Not swooping in to help or rescue does not mean that you're uncaring or callous or indifferent. It might mean the opposite - that you are respecting boundaries and providing space for another adult to become self accountable (vs. somehow accountable to you - even if that's not your intent).

Detaching doesn't mean that you stop caring - but it usually does mean that you don't actively participate the way a partner might.  This is precisely because you've decided to end the partnership.

While I was cohab'ing with my then stbx, I would religiously avoid hour long venting sessions about anything.  When my uBPDx was activated about D proceedings or stipulations or anything, I would simply say "I need to step away. Please put this in an email."  If she persisted or escalated, I would say "I'm unable to have this discussion within earshot of the kids, I'm sure you agree" - and usually that was enough.

In time, I noticed that a majority of crisis-level communications seemingly evaporated. My guess is that when my uBPDx realized, on some level, that raging at or even talking to a grey rock was working for her, she stopped doing it.

The lesson was:  She was never really seeking help, or understanding, or resolution - all those discussions were just about control, attention (negative or otherwise), or some other unmet need.

What you're feeling is normal - it's unsettling to go against an instinct or reflex.  But there is a chance to learn something new here - and the upside is:  You're not a bad person simply because you look after yourself or because you give your stbx the space to do the same. 

She's reaching a critical stage of absolute confusion, and therefore frustration, it seems. Which leads to anger at you as a way to displace all of this from within here, onto you. Projection.

People wBPD have limited tool boxes and are armored with defense mechanisms that do not serve them, yet they have no way of letting go of them and interacting on a real human to human level with people who trigger them (their partners, ironically enough).

At least those are the conclusions I've come to. You seem to have come a long way, which is really impressive. You understand that it's not productive to engage in 'debates' about how you are wrong and 'bad' (no JADE). You understand you don't deserve this treatment and you can't change it. All very good.

Yet, you still have compassion for her and want to ease her suffering. What a profound place to be internally. It shows you have a good heart, but it was that heart, after all, that got you/us into the mess we were in. It's so hurtful and confusing.

I remember once asking my ex what she needed when she was home sick with a cold. I called and texted and cleared time to go get her whatever she needed, or to just come sit with her. I did this for two days straight, she constantly said 'nothing', I'm just resting. I even offered some ideas of what I could do, like run to the store for her, bring her some cold medicine, come and give her a back rub....I was trying to figure out what she needed.

She stopped responding and my messages went unanswered. Days later she contacted me and was angry at me for 'not taking care of her'. I reminded her that I had asked her repeatedly what I could do for her, even made some suggestions. She mocked the suggestions I had made and told me 'her friends don't need to ask, they just know what to do'.

Don't put such unrealistic weight on yourself. That is not healthy. No one expects you to be a mental health superhero. Just be YOU. That is enough. Most importantly focus on you and create a plan for yourself.

I understand the frustration of course. Just continue to post and vent here and in time you are going to figure out what is best for you.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-