BPD 'Love' and their children

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

I have read some posts regarding BPD's and their 'love' and how one can tell that their expressions of love are empty because their words don't match their actions. My ex told me "I love you" very often. She also told her 4 year-old daughter "I love you" very often and at very out-of-the-blue moments and then wait for the "I love you" return. I used to believe these were sincere expressions, but looking back it seems these words didn't match the actions for either of us.

I am now nearly 6 months out of a 20 month relationship and it's this 'love' that still troubles me the most. It seems like a BPD's ultimate high in life is to hear from their SO that they are loved and know that it's real. They will use "I love you" early and often to achieve this goal and when they feel that this is accomplished it's game over, the devaluing begins, and then they will start looking for a new player in their game.

The second time I broke up with my ex it was because she began to have an affair with a married man with 2 young children. I'm embarrassed to say that I continued my relationship with her as she still claimed to 'love' me and I was completely in love with her. One night, I asked her how she and the married man managed to get together without his wife knowing. I was told that the wife worked at night and that he put the children (5 and 7) to bed and then went to her place. I was appalled at this and I told her that I hoped she would never leave her daughter home alone like this at night. She told me that she wouldn't, but that it wasn't a big deal, and since I wasn't a parent I had no right to an opinion on the matter. Also, she said "how else are we supposed to get together?" Needless to say, I was shocked at hearing this and told her that I could no longer continue the relationship.

Eight days after the second break-up I received a phone call from my ex, but it was her daughter on the phone asking me if I still liked her. This led to the second recycle. Her daughter was about to enter kindergarden and my ex learned that she would no longer get daycare support from the government and that she would have to let her mother-in-law and father of her child look after their daughter during the week, greatly decreasing the amount of time my ex would have with her daughter. She was very upset about this, so I suggested that she take on a part-time job just 1 night/day a week which would cover the cost of daycare, thereby eliminating the need to change the custody arrangements. She told me that she would be unwilling to consider this option like I was crazy to suggest such an idea.

The last weekend I spent at my ex's I took her daughter to the park on a sunny afternoon while my ex spent the entire day sleeping. The next day her daughter asked if I could take her to the park again. I said I couldn't because I had to go home, but that her mom might take her to the park. My ex said "No way! I'm not gonna take her to the park. I don't like going to the park".

I told my ex after the second recycle that I was bothered by her saying "I love you" to me with all that was now going on in our relationship (i.e. her now multiple affairs with married co-workers and the obvious idealization of them). I told her that these words mean a lot to me and I would never say them without really meaning them. She said I was 'over-thinking' this and that she used these words with many people all the time. So, for the last month of our relationship she stopped saying "I love you", but our last night together before going to sleep she said "I know I promised that I would stop saying I love you, but I really do love you, so I'm just gonna say it... .I love you!" The next morning, six hours later I received a text from her which was meant for her married man which hurt me a lot and I broke up with her the final time that afternoon. I have tried to open the door for communication with her a few times in the past six months, but she has never contacted me again.

My question is... .if her 'love' for me was just empty words, are they just empty words for everyone including her own daughter? I was absolutely devastated losing both my ex and her daughter and can't stop thinking about what kind of life her little girl is going to have. Six months and it still hurts like hell!

[gonein60seconds]

I have read some posts regarding BPD's and their 'love' and how one can tell that their expressions of love are empty because their words don't match their actions. My ex told me "I love you" very often. She also told her 4 year-old daughter "I love you" very often and at very out-of-the-blue moments and then wait for the "I love you" return. I used to believe these were sincere expressions, but looking back it seems these words didn't match the actions for either of us.

I am now nearly 6 months out of a 20 month relationship and it's this 'love' that still troubles me the most. It seems like a BPD's ultimate high in life is to hear from their SO that they are loved and know that it's real. They will use "I love you" early and often to achieve this goal and when they feel that this is accomplished it's game over, the devaluing begins, and then they will start looking for a new player in their game.

The second time I broke up with my ex it was because she began to have an affair with a married man with 2 young children. I'm embarrassed to say that I continued my relationship with her as she still claimed to 'love' me and I was completely in love with her. One night, I asked her how she and the married man managed to get together without his wife knowing. I was told that the wife worked at night and that he put the children (5 and 7) to bed and then went to her place. I was appalled at this and I told her that I hoped she would never leave her daughter home alone like this at night. She told me that she wouldn't, but that it wasn't a big deal, and since I wasn't a parent I had no right to an opinion on the matter. Also, she said "how else are we supposed to get together?" Needless to say, I was shocked at hearing this and told her that I could no longer continue the relationship.

Eight days after the second break-up I received a phone call from my ex, but it was her daughter on the phone asking me if I still liked her. This led to the second recycle. Her daughter was about to enter kindergarden and my ex learned that she would no longer get daycare support from the government and that she would have to let her mother-in-law and father of her child look after their daughter during the week, greatly decreasing the amount of time my ex would have with her daughter. She was very upset about this, so I suggested that she take on a part-time job just 1 night/day a week which would cover the cost of daycare, thereby eliminating the need to change the custody arrangements. She told me that she would be unwilling to consider this option like I was crazy to suggest such an idea.

The last weekend I spent at my ex's I took her daughter to the park on a sunny afternoon while my ex spent the entire day sleeping. The next day her daughter asked if I could take her to the park again. I said I couldn't because I had to go home, but that her mom might take her to the park. My ex said "No way! I'm not gonna take her to the park. I don't like going to the park".

I told my ex after the second recycle that I was bothered by her saying "I love you" to me with all that was now going on in our relationship (i.e. her now multiple affairs with married co-workers and the obvious idealization of them). I told her that these words mean a lot to me and I would never say them without really meaning them. She said I was 'over-thinking' this and that she used these words with many people all the time. So, for the last month of our relationship she stopped saying "I love you", but our last night together before going to sleep she said "I know I promised that I would stop saying I love you, but I really do love you, so I'm just gonna say it... .I love you!" The next morning, six hours later I received a text from her which was meant for her married man which hurt me a lot and I broke up with her the final time that afternoon. I have tried to open the door for communication with her a few times in the past six months, but she has never contacted me again.

My question is... .if her 'love' for me was just empty words, are they just empty words for everyone including her own daughter? I was absolutely devastated losing both my ex and her daughter and can't stop thinking about what kind of life her little girl is going to have. Six months and it still hurts like hell!

[StarOfTheSea]

Hi Gone,

This is an interesting question and something that's been on my mind the past few days. My exBPDbf has a young daughter from his marriage that he has full custody of. Her mom has serious mental health issues and wouldn't be able to care for her properly full time, though she does stay every other weekend at her mom's.

I feel like his little girl (I'll call her E) is an unwelcome responsibility in his life. On some level I think he loves E because he thinks it's the correct emotion to have, but there isn't much affection or attention from him. She's not in any extracurricular activities, she doesn't have friends that come over to play and she's never been to a sleepover.   That's really sad. Before E was school-aged he always brought her to work with him because he didn't want to pay for childcare. And now that E could be in different activities he won't do it because he'd have to change his schedule. She tags along with him wherever he goes, and that means she goes to work with him when she's not in school.

I read in a book about BPD somewhere that BPD'ers don't talk about their children's qualities or how much they love them but they talk about their accomplishments. That rings so true in regard to E. I never heard 'she's my sweet little girl and I love her' instead I heard 'she got an A on the test'. E is a very intelligent kid. E also has emotional issues that he won't get her counseling for. I remember her telling me that she hated her life and didn't want to be here anymore. When she started school she was thought to be autistic and was put in special classes which he pulled her out of. I think she might be on the autism spectrum, but I don't think she's autistic.

I tried hard to build a loving r/s with E because I really wanted to be a caring, reliable, stable adult in her life. I felt like it was my duty to be as good to her as I possibly could because she never asked for any of the tumult in her life. What makes me sad is that I never got to say goodbye to her. (She was staying at her mom's when I left.) E was always so proud of our little family and when I was pregnant she and I would track the baby's progress. And six weeks after I left he had my replacement in there. To me that is such an incredibly selfish action on his part to do to E. I wanted to tell him that he needed to work on his r/s with his daughter which was suffering instead of soothing himself with the replacement. Near the end he was also making comments like "If I were single and childless... .".  Another thing I noticed is that he has pics of himself and the replacement splashed all over FB but none of E. Looking at his profile you would never guess that he is a father.

So yeah, both actions and words didn't add up with him.

[Invictus01]

Being a child of a Cluster B mother must be one of the most emotionally torturous experiences. I can't even imagine what must go through a 4 year old head when her mother puts her needs above the needs of the child. My ex's mother scorched the soul out of her, I know that much. 

[Mutt]

Hi gonein60seconds,

I'm sorry you're going through this. How old is her D? Around 5 if she's entering kindergarten?

Although my father does not have BPD traits he has Narcissist traits and the family centered around his dysfunctional behaviors. It's difficult for him express love and seldom said he loved us. I learned behaviors to survive in a dysfunctional family. 

You can look around other boards.  It may help if you check the [L5] Coping and Healing from a BPD Parent, Sibling, or Inlaw and read stories from other members.


Hang in there,


----Mutt

[Wood stock]

My exBPDbf had full custody of his little girl (he took the mother to court and "won" but only used the little girl to hurt me... .when we would fight (never about her) he would take her from me--he would go to a hotel with her for the night ( even on school nights) or to his Mommy's. Always over the silliest stupidest little things. Stability for his daughter and the fact that his daughter flourished in our home (she was close to my daughter as well)... .meant nothing to him.  But while he worked out of town during the week, she was ALL my responsibility.

Yeah... .he used me and he used his little girl like a little rag doll. Literally the "I will take my ball and go home" childish game... .only the "ball" was an innocent little child.

He would drink and drive with her in the car frequently. He got a DUI on another state and went to jail for three months--over Christmas and the child's birthday. Has not followed through with getting her into counseling... .and money is not an issue.

And he has not allowed the child to have contact with her mother for four years... .

So... .he can say he loves his child all he wants, but... .actions speak louder than words. Poor thing.

What I've learned is that with BPD it's ALL about "WINNING"... .at any cost.

[downwhim]

Gone,

I am not sure about the words I love you coming from BPD. Mine said it to me after each phone call in in front of me many times. Maybe they are just comfortable words to them. He also said he loved me for 8 years then poof an email ending it all. So, I assume they do not mean the same thing to them.

At least love has a timeframe and is no consistent.

[mitatsu]

My sweet lord the examples in these replies match my own experience with my step daughter that i never got to see when i left... .

i think of her more than her mum and that is something i wont get over for a long time

[Dutched]

We know pwBPD does love, craves for love and the whole package (so the person we fell in love with) could show love.

Problem for a pwBPD is that their feelings are processed very intense. So love, hate, joy and all they perceive are real genuine and intense in that moment, even longer that that moment.

As a pwBPD has the emotional development of an 4-6 yr old, please take that into account when you go back into your memories.

As from my 30+ yrs experience with 2 kids and high functioning exw, I can tell you that when kids are getting older (5-6+ yrs) the love exw showed them changed significantly. In a sense the kids outgrow mother emotionally, leaving mom wondering why ‘the nice things’ are not working anymore.

Mother holding onto childish (age appropriate) activities, ways of doing (‘you always liked that’) and nurturing. But kids, as they grow up, want to be more and more independent, so saying ‘I can do that by myself’, leaving mom wondering and feeling… rejected, instead of validating, motivating and/or guiding to complete the task.

So I compared the dynamic with a rubber band. MotherBPD holding it tight while kids were pulling. So it snaps at adolescent age, at least in the kid mind…

This is for a pwBPD extra difficult as the love (to nurture the child and being adored by the child) changed. In order to hold on the ‘old’ a pwBPD changes (really unconsciously!) attitude into more controlling (emotional manipulation as we experience it), into being the gf of the kid, etc. All in order not to loose the ‘old’ loving and to be nurtured kid.

In fact, as from my experience, due to the family dynamics, the child get’s emotional hooked, is in FOG, besides the fact of normal love, care and loyalty a child shows towards both parents (even after divorce) .

Maybe I was a bit drifting, but landed again…

The child is not unwelcome, nor not loved, etc. The pwBPD feels abandonment by the child, is hurt by the child.

In my case after exw blew it up in a typical outburst, exw ‘punished’ (as exw expressed towards others) ME by not paying for my sons cloth’s, school, books, insurances, travel, etc

That is why exw can say ‘his future is his problem, NOT mine’ (sadly overheard by my S)

That is why exw didn’t attend twice at his graduation.

That is why exw etc., etc.

Sadly, deep sadly, ‘mom’ punished ONLY my son for his choice to live with me… sleeping most 2 nights a week at mom’s place.

Glad he is grown up, as I really don’t envy you with younger kids! 

[StarOfTheSea]

We know pwBPD does love, craves for love and the whole package (so the person we fell in love with) could show love.

Problem for a pwBPD is that their feelings are processed very intense. So love, hate, joy and all they perceive are real genuine and intense in that moment, even longer that that moment.

As a pwBPD has the emotional development of an 4-6 yr old, please take that into account when you go back into your memories.

As from my 30+ yrs experience with 2 kids and high functioning exw, I can tell you that when kids are getting older (5-6+ yrs) the love exw showed them changed significantly. In a sense the kids outgrow mother emotionally, leaving mom wondering why ‘the nice things’ are not working anymore.

Mother holding onto childish (age appropriate) activities, ways of doing (‘you always liked that’) and nurturing. But kids, as they grow up, want to be more and more independent, so saying ‘I can do that by myself’, leaving mom wondering and feeling… rejected, instead of validating, motivating and/or guiding to complete the task.

So I compared the dynamic with a rubber band. MotherBPD holding it tight while kids were pulling. So it snaps at adolescent age, at least in the kid mind…

This is for a pwBPD extra difficult as the love (to nurture the child and being adored by the child) changed. In order to hold on the ‘old’ a pwBPD changes (really unconsciously!) attitude into more controlling (emotional manipulation as we experience it), into being the gf of the kid, etc. All in order not to loose the ‘old’ loving and to be nurtured kid.

In fact, as from my experience, due to the family dynamics, the child get’s emotional hooked, is in FOG, besides the fact of normal love, care and loyalty a child shows towards both parents (even after divorce) .

Maybe I was a bit drifting, but landed again…

The child is not unwelcome, nor not loved, etc. The pwBPD feels abandonment by the child, is hurt by the child.

In my case after exw blew it up in a typical outburst, exw ‘punished’ (as exw expressed towards others) ME by not paying for my sons cloth’s, school, books, insurances, travel, etc

That is why exw can say ‘his future is his problem, NOT mine’ (sadly overheard by my S)

That is why exw didn’t attend twice at his graduation.

That is why exw etc., etc.

Sadly, deep sadly, ‘mom’ punished ONLY my son for his choice to live with me… sleeping most 2 nights a week at mom’s place.

Glad he is grown up, as I really don’t envy you with younger kids! 

Interesting points, Dutched. It got me wondering if his reluctance to let his daughter have friends and be in activities is his way of 'keeping her to himself'.  If she were to be more independent, would that make him feel abandoned?

It's such a relief to be away from those dynamics. I'm patient, but I'm in no way equipped to deal with those issues.

[zundertowz]

My BPD ex treated her kids very well even though it was more like friends than a parent.  Alot of descions made were awfull... .is this unusual?

[Dutched]

Interesting points, Dutched. It got me wondering if his reluctance to let his daughter have friends and be in activities is his way of 'keeping her to himself'.  If she were to be more independent, would that make him feel abandoned?

It's such a relief to be away from those dynamics. I'm patient, but I'm in no way equipped to deal with those issues.

His daughter is a way to hold onto, hold onto the love he really has for his child (the way of expressing can be questioned) and the way he needs to be validated by the child (nurturing and so loving)

What else does he have? So IMO the child (unconsciously) fulfils an unhealthy position in order to sooth daddy (due to the ‘seemingly valid’ arguments of daddy towards the child).

He simply can’t afford to lose the child, otherwise he would lose himself completely.

Sad, really sad for the child that mother is not present  (as I understand), the one who is able to balance matters in the interest of the child.

As I wrote, as the child grows older and the rubber band is stretched until it snaps. Only from my experience, the child is not split black(!), despite any punishment the child is (like us?) subtle emotional manipulated to comply to the need that exists in THAT moment.

Questions exw asked began with ‘you know …’ ‘it is good for you to… you know that’,  ‘how would I feel if…’ (please search google for ‘examples of emotional abuse/blackmail’ etc.)

As told, not attending my sons graduation was ‘explained’ by exw to my son as: ‘I made a special agreement with the director. I was allowed to stand behind a pillar in order to avoid your dad’. At first he believed ‘mom’… I had to rationalise it; he stood for 10 minutes on the podium with his class, where ever he looked, no ‘mom’ to see, yes he waved at dad (me) sitting there between a 400 other parents. So a school with 200 graduates, 30% or 60 graduates of divorced parents (average?), so 120 parents and ‘mom’ having a ‘special’ agreement? Is it appropriate to laugh? Later, much later my son was told that ‘mom’ couldn’t face it if see would see me.

She (the child) will get upset with father, will see a certain inconsistency in his behaviour, she will notice words and actions, but addressing them will give doubt and, in case, reverse blaming (as we have experienced)

I fear, as she has no one else that keeps her in reality. I see it with D (for whom I am death; went with mom). Both living together (now incl. moms soother) and reinforcing the behaviour behind a mask of happiness with death empty eyes. 

All besides that it seems in a way “to run” in fam of exw, D is certainly 3rd generation.

[Dutched]

My BPD ex treated her kids very well even though it was more like friends than a parent.  Alot of descions made were awfull... .is this unusual?

That Is what I tried to describe.

Friends… as from the moment the child emotionally outgrows the pwBPD.

Even using the child as confidant in order to get that special bond, special to keep that rubber band intact.

Confidant also as ally against the other parent.

During that long r/s I discovered 2 upbringings… of the kids

The mutual as parents and the ‘bedroom’ upbringing from ‘mom’, in which the mutual upbringing was devaluated as ‘you know how dad is…’  ‘I don’t agree also, but don’t let him know, let’s pretend’… etc.

Kids questioning why ‘mom’ paid cash instead of with the bank card; answer ’dad might otherwise get set up if he sees the bank statement’…

Fact is: kids are thrilled when they got something, have to show off.

Fact is: ‘moms’ going to the ATM is visible on the bank statement, now as we discussed finances exw knew for certain the amount would come up…  

Kids as friends with secrets, as confidant in order to devaluate

[raisins3142]

My mother is cluster b.

Throughout my life, whenever she has done something for someone else, she always says "all I ask in return is that you appreciate it."  She is also a big one to complain if she doesn't get a thank you card, etc.

So, I've always been aware that she does things in part to get attention and affection and love in return.  It is like a transaction of sorts.  At least if she does not mean "just don't be a little ingrate" but if that was the long and short of it, I don't think I would have heard her exact phraseology over and over and over.  But it goes a lot deeper than that.  She has a martyr complex and we've had to force her to go to the doctor a few times, etc.

[raisins3142]

My BPD ex treated her kids very well even though it was more like friends than a parent.  Alot of descions made were awfull... .is this unusual?

That Is what I tried to describe.

Friends… as from the moment the child emotionally outgrows the pwBPD.

Even using the child as confidant in order to get that special bond, special to keep that rubber band intact.

Confidant also as ally against the other parent.

During that long r/s I discovered 2 upbringings… of the kids

The mutual as parents and the ‘bedroom’ upbringing from ‘mom’, in which the mutual upbringing was devaluated as ‘you know how dad is…’  ‘I don’t agree also, but don’t let him know, let’s pretend’… etc.

Kids questioning why ‘mom’ paid cash instead of with the bank card; answer ’dad might otherwise get set up if he sees the bank statement’…

Fact is: kids are thrilled when they got something, have to show off.

Fact is: ‘moms’ going to the ATM is visible on the bank statement, now as we discussed finances exw knew for certain the amount would come up…  

Kids as friends with secrets, as confidant in order to devaluate

My mother is cluster b and did some of this.

It is emotional incest almost.  Gross, need a shower now 

Learning about  BPD has been interesting given what it uncovered about my own mother.